Did Jesus Preach the Gospel?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 22 มี.ค. 2014
- Watch panelists discuss whether Jesus and Paul agreed on the gospel at The Gospel Coalition's 2013 National Conference at Rosen Shingle Creek in Orlando.
In this video: Tim Keller, Kevin DeYoung, D. A. Carson, John Piper
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Very interesting...! Enjoyed the discussion and presentation...4 great scholars and men of faith...
Around minute 15, Mr. Piper says everything I think about this subject! By the way, this is indeed a great project!
What a beautiful prayer
Some helpful statements...
DeYoung at 20:18 - Mark's kingdom language mirror's Paul's gospel language and Piper's statements.
Piper at 22:31 - Jesus announced the Kingdom and Paul preached reconciliation to the King.
Keller at 25:31 - There are texts that seem to indicate that the terms are nearly equivalent and that "eternal life" is "kingdom life" breaking into the present.
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There are some relevant verses in Acts. For example:
"But when they believed Philip as *he preached good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ*, they were baptized, both men and women." (8:12)
Sort of a transition phase from kingdom language to Christ language.
I always love the D A Carson and have gone back to the many of his sermons over and over again. I don't think the vocabulary differences are so much that you have to treat it in different categories. Piper mentioned Paul's message is all about preaching the Kingdom of God but he approaches it in a different way than Jesus did talking about himself and His Kingdom.
Timothy Keller is spot on 💫🗽Wisdom👑 is better the Knowledge💯
47:50 an astounding highlight
TGC needs to add to their "justification" emphasis of the Gospel. Add: Satan's head was crushed at the crucifixion. The promise made to Adam and Eve in the Garden.
Apostle John wrote in the book of Revelations many times about God's Kingship, His Kingdom and the coming of the King of kings. Although John may have have written less about the Kingdom in the Gospel of Jesus Christ according to John, but he wrote much of it in the book of The Revelation of Jesus Christ.
Having spent 40 years wrestling with why the Calvinist / Reformed idea of the Gospel had a such a different emphasis than God's description of
His relationship with Israel in the Old Testament, or with teachings of Jesus, and how to reconcile that,
I discovered the teachings of Dallas Willard.
I believe I've finally found the someone who understood the bridge between the teachings of Jesus, and the reformed "doctrines" in the epistles.
John Piper doesn't know everything, he should be still learning like the rest of us.
The lens with which he comes to the scripture determines what he sees in it.
The Bible is the living word,
and we should always be learning,
either as we read or as we encounter God.
Ever heard of the Holy Spirit.
According to Acts 28 : 31 Paul preached the Kingdom of God and teached those things which concern the lord Jesus Christ .
Acts 28 (ASV)
30: For two whole years PAUL stayed there in his own rented house and welcomed all who came to see him.
31: Boldly and without hindrance he PRECHED the kINGDOM OF GOD and taught about the Lord Jesus Christ.
Is this your reasoning?
Since Paul preached the Kingdom of God
and Jesus also preached the Kingdom of God
Therefore Jesus and Paul must be preaching the same gospel
Paul's writing, life, living etc his gospel mirror Matt Mark Luke and John's. Therefore they all were imputed through the Holy Spirit which in a way clarifying what Jesus was saying how to live regarding the Kingdom life style.
The Lord preaching His own death, burial and resurrection before it happens, yeah that makes a lot of sense.......Hebrews 9:16-17 KJV For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
The kingdom is simply background? That explains a lot.
That’s the thing, the kingdom to us right now is definitely the background, but surely it wasn’t then and it won’t be in the future
One thing I keep wondering: in this debate the running thread seemed to be that the word "kingdom" had faded in Pauls writings. But weren't the gospels written after Pauls foundational letters in terms of chronology?
I have watched and even taken some notes. Several questions though. 1) It seems that the panel never actually dealt with the book quoted at the beginning. 2) I do not see how Jesus becomes, in essence, subordinate to Paul. 3) In response to Piper's blatant dispensationalism (he did not use that term btw) is that if we follow his logic we would still read Paul thru the eyes of the Gospels rather than the other way around because the Gospels POSTdate the epistles Paul. 4) There is more to the NT than Paul, what of Peter, James and John none of whom use the language of justification. 5) Finally this is a very loaded panel - and I respect all these men - but why do they not include Scott McKnight or N. T. Wright to actually have a real discussion on this matter?
I couldn't agree more with point 5. I feel like they continued to skirt around the issue because there was no one on the panel actually challenging them. They were able to present the challenges in their own terms and therefore their ideas weren't satisfactorily challenged, in my opinion. Like when they talked about the claim of 'different' gospels in the New Testament (which I don't think there is) like of Mark, John, Paul, etc, they never engaged with when Paul states in Rom 2:16, 16:25 and 2 Tim 2:8 "my gospel." Now, I don't think that this is a different gospel, but they never even touched on these points in Paul, which meant most of the conversation was very unsatisfying to me.
They don't want to be challenged and want to be happy with their caricatures. Four yes men nodding in approval
That thing you say on dispensationalism is nonsense. Piper just use some common sense on the biblical chronology.
in our country, people don't sit like that even in a bar.
Three years ago I wrote this poem, not one comment
I believe that the Gospel that Lord Jesus preached is of the Kingdom of God coming to earth.
Both Keller and Carson together started the TGC right?
Along with Piper and Driscoll I believe.
To Piper's statement at 14:50, Piper seems to assume that THE purpose of Jesus in coming was to die for sinners. And no doubt that certainly was A purpose of Jesus probably even the primary purpose, but Jesus also says that he came to preach the kingdom of God (Mark 1:38) and that he came to be a king that bears witness to the truth (John 18:37) and that he came so that his people would have abundant life (John 10:10). These are direct purpose statements from Jesus. We would do well to not diminish those purposes as merely "preparatory talking", as Piper puts it, before the "performance of salvation" at the cross. Jesus' entire ministry, his preaching, his miracles, his teaching, his death and Resurrection, and,we should add, his sending of the Spirit, was him performing/accomplishing salvation, not just his death.
Amen.
I am surprised I haven't heard Act 18:26, about Priscilla and Aquila explaining the way of God to Apollos more perfectly. Paul's Gospel was the more perfect understanding. It was more complete, more adequate.
As we look upon the life and pattern set forth by Jesus we distinctly witness the foundational outflowing gospel. Our Lord provokes the truth of the living gospel while walking and even in the questions He asked. There are several fantastic crescendo moments but shouldn't we recognize those He was preaching to?
Our Lord's perfectly purposeful life would convert the few that they may take the good news to world. Jesus preached the gospel to the twelve and a relatively small group gathered at Pentecost. The gospel veiled through Jesus vs. the unveiled gospel of Jesus Christ intended for all through the Spirit of God.
Jesus Christ Himself is the gospel!
Does anyone know what book he is referencing?
Possibly The King Jesus Gospel by Scot Mcknight. I don't have the book in front of me to check, but it sounds like it from what he read. McKnight's book definitely stands as an example of what they disapprove of at the beginning of the discussion.
Yes. The King Jesus Gospel. It would have been far more useful to debate with McKnight and had some actual debate and of course a fair representation of the book. A great book might I add.
@@jonbulloch3159 Agreed. They did not fairly represent McKnight, or even listen to his main thesis, I might add.
Jon Bulloch that’s the most sensible thing said here
Philosophical ideas
What is common among them who actually derive their grasp in reading the OT law and the prophets regarding a geographical kingdom.
For this Jesus reproved that grasp saying the Kingdom of God comes not by observation"...as though with the human eye to UK can see it and it's over here or over there.
Paul by the Spirit defines TV he Kingdom of God to be IN righteousness peace and joy IN THE HOLY SPIRIT. Romans 14:17
Jesus displayed the kingdom of God and did not have preach it but lived it ❤😇🇺🇸😎
The kingdom will be a physical one though
The entire universe is under God's reign. At the present time there is a not yet punished rebellion by fallen humanity, the devil, and sin. As people put their trust and hope in Jesus they are simultaneously rejecting satan's kingdom. They are brought by God out of the domain of darkness and into the Kingdom of His beloved Son. When Jesus returns, the rebellion will be ended. In the end, all of creation will be in restored in glad and joyous submission to our Great King.
I wonder how fruitful this would be for an unbeliever to stumble upon. If it were me before I was saved, I would be utterly confused. Even as a saved man, it's confusing.
This is a discussion between four pastor-theologians (all with PhDs) at a very high level. I would agree that this is not where we should start with new believers-it’s meat and they need milk. Ask the Spirit and He will give understanding as He wills.
I haven’t heard much scripture so far 😅
The video title is completely unanswered for the first 25 minutes.
The interesting part to me is that John Piper explains the gospels being written during the beginning, not illustrating the extra important part of salvation after Jesus resurrection.
Did Mark not understand the point Jesus was making, and therefore wrote an incomplete, weak, unable to stand on its own, gospel.
I think everyone reading this would say yes, it needs the other books to make it truly valuable.
So Mark, living through the time after Jesus, didn't have a reason to talk about the super important really superior gospel that Jesus death and resurrection saves us.
Why wasn’t law discussed only in the Kingdom and Grace only in the epistles… why didn’t they reference that Christ called up Paul to be the authority for a new gospel.. that the two of them went away for two years before Paul began his ministry.. that the Kingdom covenant was set aside when Grace was preached.. and will be given a second chance after the church is removed… there were two gospels… with two different messages… Law to be justified by your own works, and Grace by just believing that Christ died for the remission of sins… and the Holy Spirit lives in you.
So which one did Christ preach? And by which one is Christ Himself justified? Or another way to look at it, how were Adam & Eve justified before sin?
Why did these great scholars fail to mention to audience of the book and letters?
The answer to that question says everything. Paul rarely "gospeled" in his letters because he was addressing issues of ecclesiology, whereas the canonical gospels were primarily evangelistic and Jesus presents Himself in the way we should all present Jesus. THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS THE POINT AND LIFE OF THE GOSPEL, and His name is JESUS.
Амен.
The entire book of Romans is the Gospel explained. Ephesians and Galatians is riddled with the Gospel
Don’t forget Acts though. Acts importantly begins and ends with references to the kingdom, but it is undeniable that the frequency of mentioning the kingdom of God tapers off and not all of the evangelistic sermons mention the kingdom.
I. Howard Marshall addresses that briefly in his theology of the NT volume. Since Acts is on a continuum with Luke both the continuities and discontinuities, or rather shifts in emphasis, are both interesting and significant to ponder over.
The panel is investigating a real issue/puzzle that needs to be grappled with to avoid some claims such as certain Dispensationalists and even mainline/critical scholars say about Jesus’ gospel of the kingdom not being the same as the church’s gospel “of the grace of God”.
J. Vernon McGee is known for saying that the church does not preach the kingdom of God today, even though later he tried to resolve the problem of “two gospels” and say there really is only one gospel with different emphases at different times, which is the same as saying they are different though.
Piper seems to equate salvation with the gospel
The gospel was preached to Abraham, Gal 3, and to all the Jews for 40 years, Heb 4, and they wonder if Jesus preached it? Jesus said I am the resurrection and the life. What do they think that was? The lamb was slain and the works, of salvation, were finished before God even created mankind. We spend eternity in the kingdom, God's holy mountain, mount zion, the church of the living God. Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
And when did God start gathering members for his church, his mount Zion, his new Jerusalem?
Exodus 15:.....which thou hast purchased.
17 Thou shalt bring them in, and plant them in the mountain of thine inheritance, in the place, O Lord, which thou hast made for thee to dwell in, in the Sanctuary, O Lord, which thy hands have established.18 The Lord shall reign for ever and ever
And here is our inheritance in God's kingdom, reserved in heaven for us, the new Jerusalem. I heard Piper say Christians don't have to obey the 10 commandments because we are not under the law. Exactly opposite of what Paul and the entire bible teaches. We are not under the law of sin and death, which is disobedience to God's law. We are certainly under the obedience to God's law to our King. Who exactly is John Piper's king?
It’s not the gospel according to Paul, it’s Paul’s gospel
When Paul went to the gentiles the only thing he brought was what we call the Old Testament and the revelations he received directly from Christ. The converted gentiles didn't have access to Jesus' earthly teachings. They are with a very few exceptions absent from Paul's writings. To me, this is an indication that Jesus' earthly ministry was to the Jews and to the Jews only. Combining the gospels of Matthew, Luke, Mark and John with the epistles of Paul could then very well be mixed covenants and thus a non-saving gospel
This is fallacious. Paul preached to unconverted gentiles (by unconverted I mean they weren't Hebrews) but he preached to disciples of Christ. Granted, he preached to those who did not personally sit under Christ, but these were not disciples of PAUL, they were disciples of CHRIST. As first century disciples they would have known all of Jesus' ways and words. Paul wrote in light of this. He speaks as one who is admonishing, rebuking, encouraging those who already have a context upon which to understand his words, ie. those who knew Jesus teachings. Many of them were taught those teachings by Paul himself, after all (follow me as I follow Christ). The epistles are written IN LIGHT of the life and teachings of the Rabbi: Jesus Christ.
Piper is mixing salvation with gospel. He sees it as synonymous. This is why he doesn't seem to understand the argument.
Totally agree. Seems to misunderstand alot in his writings
Agreed
Agreed
These men will intellectualize Jesus Christ right out of the Bible, false teachers is what they really are.
Matthew 24:4
“And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.” Stick with what the Bible says, not men like this!!!
There is no doubt that MODERN Christianity places as a rule a MUCH heavier emphasis on Paul’s Gospel vs the works based Kingdom Message of Christ. They are difficult to reconcile.
Is it significant that the Gospels are placed first in the New Testament? Acts is longer word-count-wise than Matthew, Mark, and John. The Gospels were probably not written first.
Piper: "Read Luke for Luke. Let him have his say." -- But I don't read Luke for Luke at all. I read Luke for the Word of Jesus and the 3 1/2 years of the incarnate ministry of Jesus. The Scriptures as a whole "book" of equal authority was a determination made by man. Yes, I have a red letter attitude. The Kingdom is actually good news. It is understandable that for modern middle class people, immortality and eschaton are good enough news oftentimes. -- It is notable that a definition of "the gospel" was not given at the beginning of the talk.
I completely agree with you.
It's impossible to read Jesus' words and not come away recognizing those words as possessing all power & authority.
Matt 28 is telling. People would do well to note every. single. word. here and take note of the tenses of verbs.
All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded (past tense) you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Keller relates in a way used in a large city...a guy you can talk to about anything. He clearly communes with the common man and is highly aware of cultural issues. That said his apologetics book is weak hamartiologically
Piper went to Nineveh and became a Ninevite
This discussion has not included N T Wright. He is the foremost scholar on Paul and Jesus from the UK.
So I am surprised. The shameful exclusion from within the church because of the realisation they may have been preaching wrongly.
No, the Kingdom is not what Christianity is all about. None of the basic themes of Christianity were at all the subjects of the teaching/ kingdom presentation ministry of Jesus. In fact it appears that the gospel of Christ's death and resurrection and salvation and justification and propitiation and redemption was first preached by Paul as he had been personally taught by the Lord Himself. Reformed definitions are still very Roman Catholic, not Pauline. A major example is the R.C. doctrine that the law is the rule of life for the believer. Whereas that was true of Israel under the law (and during the ministry of Christ), the proper Biblical rule of life for the Christian is union with Christ. Death with Christ and new resurrection life with Christ is what must characterize everything about the very new unique and different life of a Christian. Paul declares these truths to be new and never before known or experienced. This is critical to understanding the life walk of saints and the Church. This is not patterned on the Old Testament and cannot be at all compared to the life of former saints. This Gospel is new and the life is new. Romans chapters 6-8 will not be understood while wearing R.C. glasses. Death with Christ is death to the law and death to sin. We need not fail as David did. We are raised with Christ to live and serve in newness and victory and to bear fruit unto God as was NOT possible before. We are not under the law. This can only be understood by reading Paul, not by the law. It is critical to believe and accept as fundamental the purpose of the ministry of Jesus Christ as explained in Romans 15:8 Now I say Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises unto the father's . 9And that the Gentiles might glorify God for His mercy...Jesus was not preaching to the Church, but to Israel. As He specified, I am come only to the lost sheep of Israel. That Kingdom preached as then at hand will yet again be at hand during the tribulation, when the Lord will surely turn their hearts back to Him. But that Kingdom is not the gospel that we now preach. Repent of your false traditions. It is not alone yourselves that you mislead but Christ's Church. He will take this seriously!
The gospel is the GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM!
Jesus is going to return and set up the kingdom of God ON THE EARTH! God’s government ON THE EARTH! God resurrected the Messiah! The Messiah will resurrect his people! The destiny of the Messiah and his people is to be ON THE EARTH! The renewed restored earth! God also dwelling with them! Rev 21
Matt 24
14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
Jesus said the Father is the only true God!
John 17
3 And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.
It funny scripture stats the exact opposite of what these guys are saying.
Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.
2 Timothy 2:7 - AKJV
On a verse Paul wrote to Timothy use in context of the chapter of how to teach, preach, and study. To show thyself approved before God. It is Paul write’s that to give you insight as to what is going in the Bible on by Jesus death on the cross. Not the other way around. That’s why he can call it “My Gospel”.
Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
Romans 16:25 - AKJV
Very odd that he doesn’t say our gospel; It does say that it is his Gospel that has power to stablish you and that it is preached according to the revelation of the mystery and was a secret since the world began.
That why in Galatians chapter one he can say he didn’t receive it of man nor was taught it by man. He learned it from the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ.
But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Galatians 1:11-12 - AKJV
Remind everyone about these things, and command them in God’s presence to stop fighting over words. Such arguments are useless, and they can ruin those who hear them. 2nd Timothy 2:14
The answer to the question, "did Jesus preach the gospel" according to this panel, is no.
Matthew Mark and John along with Jesus were all presenting gospel based on Jesus life. The writers, with God's inspiration didn't emphasize the very important message of Paul. They thought there was value in writing what they did. Thought they knew what happened after His death, they made no mention because the letter was never meant to be read in isolation.
The panel never tried to answer the question. They should have,
There is not a complete gospel in the gospels, they need support. I would love a discussion about this.
Your comment makes zero sense in light of Matt 28:19-20
A bunch of chattering nonsense
The Puppets of Predestination jhhb
1
Holy, Holy, Holy, the angels sing
This hallowed name in praise they bring
Yet a third of them left their first estate
Was it a free fall, or foreordained fate
2
Was Lucifer created to covet aspire
Decreed to be full of this evil desire
A subtle Serpent formed full of lies
By a God omnipotent and wise
2
Was Eve foreordained to eat
To fall and worship at his feet
Was Adam elected to eat as well
And both predestined for hell
3
Was Adam ordained to eat and fall
Compelled to obey the Devils call
Driven by a fatalistic force
Inexorable chartered course
4
Freewill is a myth a mystical illusion
The will of man merely self delusion
Everything determined by divine decree
Paedophiles, predestined to be
5
Evil is predetermined and desired
Every evil thought and deed inspired
Lucifer’s pride and lust for place
Decreed to deceive the human race
6
This doctrine has a fundamental flaw
A deity devoid of any righteous law
Propelling people to lie and kill
Then punishing for doing his will
7
Destroying those decreed to disobey
Because they cannot repent or pray
Burning those born in sin depraved
Elected to be evil, never be saved
8
This monstrous misrepresentation
Demon devised insemination
A malicious mockery of a loving God
Will be condemned by His righteous rod
These guys never draw a conclusion with this so-called discussion. They are more making excuses for the discrepancies, contradictions, and inconsistencies in the Bible. This is the very reason why there are literally 22,000 different denominations of people picking and choosing which "Version" agrees with them. The answer is Islam.......the Qur'an was not written by Man (or 40 of them) but is the literal word of Our Creator which makes no mistakes or errors. I say again......ISLAM IS THE ANSWER. The Qur'an has no confusion in it!! I bare witness that there in no God other than Our Creator who is without partners or equals and I bare witness that Muhammad is His Final Messenger and the Seal of all Prophets.
The Quran was written by the father of lies.
If you caricature the people you wish to persuade, you will never convince them.
Like there are no denominations in Islam... I trust the witness of 40 people that cohere more than the witness of one that contradicts all that came before him.