is solar power worth it? an analysis 12 years after installation
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 24 ก.ย. 2024
- Is solar power worth the cost? Our photovoltaic array has been operational for 12 years, and I have "real world" data on its performance. In this video I explain the system components, how much it cost to have installed, how much electricity it has made and how long it will take to recoup the installation costs. I also cover maintenance of the system and the expected lifespan of the components.
website: justafewacres.com/
Facebook: / just-a-few-acres-farm-...
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email: peterelarson3@gmail.com
To order Pete's book; "A Year and a Day on Just a Few Acres:" www.amazon.com...
Sir, you have the knack for presenting things in an organized and relatively non-biased way. Well presented.
I couldn't agree more!
I live on a yacht. I make my own electricity with 2 solar panels and a wind generator. I'm off the grid. My only bill is a phone bill.
Cheers Gray
Australia
Jealous!
@@ronniepryor6610 I bought an old yacht for $4,000. I purchased second hand solar panels for $40 each.
I live on the age pension.
Ive wondered forever why braindead sailors seem so backwards. Especually when we have flexible solar sells now. Theres zero reason most of your deck shouldnt be solar plus towed and wind generators. Then again these folks will pay 10k for a 1k item because it says nautical on it
@@cdreid99999 sad you need to put others down. I hope it makes you feel superior as you probably are. My solar panels cost me $40 each. I am considering some flexible solar panels. I wish you well. Cheers Gray Australia
Does the sound of the wind generator make you want to take hostages? Do you use a hydrogenator when underway?
apart from the real value of his demonstration, how pleasant to listen to him: almost no "ahhh, i mean ahhh" a clear sign 1-he knows what he is talking about and 2-he thinks before talking -WELL DONE Mr Larson
he believes in what he says.
My solar panels and batteries was worth every penny back in February during the big freeze here in Texas. I had electricity when many did not.
Thats republican views for you!
one of the few people welcoming those in their home with masks being worn all the time.
@@MistressOP what's a mask?
Yes - solar power is a godsend in parts of the country that lack reliable infrastructure. Of course, this is a growing concern throughout the US as we revert to a sub-first-world country under neo liberalism.
Could have done that same thing with a natural gas generator, for a fraction of the cost!
Pete, if you were not a small acre farmer you would make a terrific school teacher. You make every topic so interesting and informative.
Two other points I should have added to the video:
1. Although our photovoltaic system is not a money-maker, we installed it because renewable energy is something we think is important (Hilarie and I). I think that too often in our world, decisions are made solely on their economic merit without considering the greater good or creating a better world. Our decision can also be thought of like this: some people choose to buy motorhomes, boats, ATV’s, pools, or expensive vacations every year. The cost of these things can equal or exceed the cost of our solar power. Instead of spending money on these things, we chose to invest in our photovoltaic system.
2. When I was an architect I specialized in energy efficient building design. Renewable energy like solar electricity is the most expensive aspect of reducing your utility bill. It is best considered after you have done all you can to reduce your energy consumption by adding insulation, using efficient appliances, and orienting the building to capture solar energy (passive solar design).
Good points 😁👍
Thanks for the rundown of your PV system. I suspect home scale PV rarely makes sense on the dollars alone. But there are other factors that make it worthwhile. I consider distributed generation, resiliency, and enjoyment of the technology to be intangibles that are valuable.
Thank you for your content. I really appreciate it! Keep it up!
Well, you are a sun farmer after all. 🤔
If you wanted to start small and have your system grow as you go along, what does that look like? A few panels, a few batteries and as large of an inverter and controller as you can afford?
Or does it all have to be matched.
You are who everyone should have as a teacher. Between how you break down complex subjects so even people new to the subject can understand the essentials and your personality you are by far one of my favorites and I only have watched two of your videos.
Easiest way to determine the correct angle to the sun is placing a small soup can on the face of the panel. Tilt the panel up or down until the shadow of the can disappears. No shadow equals best angle to the sun.
Well I’ve never heard of that one but it makes really good sense. Thanks for sharing.
I'm nicknaming this "the soup can at high noon" trick. What an easy way to align your solar panel.
@Hury Springer Can you be more of a prick to people? I feel like you are holding back your superiority.
Only instantaneously. The sun will move and the best angle will move with it. So you need the average best angle.
Also best for what? If you have net metering like the video then its total power output. But if like most places you buy electricity for more than you sell it then you want to optimise for time of day.
Basically soup cans are dumb and you should feel bad
@@mabamabam weak bait
Thank you for investing in this system 12 years ago, people like you are the reason why the costs have come down and the technology improved.
I’m an electrical engineer who has been watching the solar paradigm for many years. I have designed several solar system both for storage/conversion to augment utility power and to seek to the utility. Without government subsidies during raw material attainment, manufacture, sale and installation solar can never pay for itself in its lifetime. And when it’s functional life is up at about the 25 year mark you are left with a lot of toxic land fill material. Solar systems require a lot of upfront engineering for placement, especially if it’s going on a roof. Additionally maintenance is an ongoing costly and problematic issue. I’ve got 40 years working with this crap at the behest of others. It’s a lot of smoking mirrors. Take away the subsidies and just the solar panels cannot will not even pay for themselves.
I could not agree with you more.
This has been the best solar related video I’ve ever seen.
Ditto
late me have your company address
Agreed x¹⁰
Sure
yes
It's just like stories your dad tells you😎
not like just more school material😭
We had 34 panels put up exactly a year ago filling our north and east facing roof space (in Queensland, Australia). Total 11.2 kw with a 10kw/h inverter. In summer we generate up to 65kw/h in a day. In winter up to around 35kw/h. The cost was around $15,000AUD but it has saved us over $3000 in one year so payback will be just 5 years.
We bought an electric car last October and have run both the car and home from solar.
3 months ago we invested in a Powerwall (cost $12,000AUD). This will not pay for itself but that wasn’t the point.
Our hot water system was gas using LPG 45kg cylinders with a new cylinder about every 6-7 weeks. Last month we replaced this with an electric heat pump boiler at a cost of less than $4000 which will save us around $900 per year in LPG.
We are close to self sufficient on energy now. Big investment.......but worth it in my view. Like you we chose to spend our money this way rather than on annual holidays, eating out, expensive clothes etc.
dont do much in way of financial analysis do you?
nice you have money to splash around to fell good but pretty irrelevant to 90% of the population as an example
yarpos If the 10% of the population that can afford to do this stuff are persuaded to do so then that is at least a decent start. It does actually make financial sense as a personal investment too.
Many of these things should be in building codes for new housing. Why aren’t they? Zero energy bills for people living in such homes would be a great boon for many with lower incomes wouldn’t you say?
Of course we could have splashed our cash on cruises, eating out, gambling or drinking as many I know do. Would you consider such spending worthwhile or is the whole issue you have that some people have some money. By the way we are in our 60s and only started to get ahead once the mortgage was paid off a decade ago so I know all about having no spare cash.
payback allready to have free energy you did not pay 3000 year anymore. you could have bought car and spend money on gas LOL
The reality is, the future is nuclear power... We just don't have enough land to rely purely on renewable energy. The science and the maths are in - and have been for years - nuclear is the cleanest way to generate massive amounts of power. Without it, we're stuck burning coal, oil, or gas for the majority of the planet.
@@CRCinAU we not need use power more and sex should be come illegal xD
Of all the videos I’ve seen on TH-cam this was arguably one of the most clear and concise ones yet. Across all topics. Wonderful job explaining how it works and how the costs have fit in for your case.
You`ve said the same thing on every video on TH-cam about solar....
@@baneverything5580 what the hell are you talking about
One way to increase your electric production would be to cool your panels. The heat that is removed will ensure more peak performance from your panels and if you had an earth battery, you could store the heat for home heating in winter. Heat collection is the best way to produce much much more energy from those precious drops of sunlight. Doing more with less is the key to furthering the success of solar energy installations, in my view. Great video by the way, I really enjoyed it!
This person seems to provide the most unbiased evaluation I have seen.
I love it! This guy is precise and concise and very informative. He knows his stuff too.
He is also an excellent speaker , no pauses & great diction.
...once he gets to point, around 6:43
He is old school bro..no comparison wd today's only money oriented generation
Here in Tennessee, TVA power area, they fight solar. They pay $0.03 per kwh you produce. Then they charge you $0.08 to use it. They make money off your system. It also makes it totally impractical. You'd have to have 3 times more solar output just to break even. If you don't keep your house hooked to light and power you'll lose your building permit, that keeps anyone from going off-grid. I'm actually fixing to contact some high profile lawyers. I don't see how this can be legal to force you to pay a separate entity or our local government will punish you.
That really stinks. Apparently it's just Tennessee, Alabama, South Dakota, and the Marianas Islands that don't have either net metering (almost everywhere) or a similar system (a few places). Contact your state congress representatives - they're usually a lot more responsive than the national ones.
The difference is unless you get a ton of batteries and disconnect yourself, you pay them to offset your grid costs when you produce, and pay for your power when you don't have production. Those aren't free services - the first requires the distribution network and a big turbine to dump heat into when there's too much power, the second requires a natural gas plant to spin up when your panels are done for the night. Having some panels doesn't mean you automatically get the market rate for power unless government specifically passes a law for that, and states that have are scaling back their solar net-metering schemes because they are too expensive and not as effective as say just plowing the same money into wind. Rooftop PV is inherently inefficient for government to subsidize, compared to the other renewable options. Especially in the Appalachians.
@@billheughan637 the power I produce is used up within less than 500 feet from my home. I pay $19.60 per month access fee that's supposed to be for equipment upkeep like transformers and lines. So your argument is debunked
@@Bryan-Hensley That's...not how the grid works. On top of regular maintenance and upkeep, the frequency of your AC is stabilized by a distant power station, and your power contributes along with a mix of other generators (and backups). Since you live in the TVA region it's likely a bunch of dams and natural gas. When your panel starts to sag in the afternoon as the sun sets, other sources have to be ready to step in which means a standby fee.
The only way you get away from these costs is to go off-grid completely. Otherwise you're asking other people to chip in to help your bill. Which is fine and some states have done that with net metering, but lets be clear about it.
@@billheughan637 wrong. My inverters synchronize with the grid. You obviously don't know shit about solar. You aren't even getting basic 101 right
6.6 kWh in Australia installed $3900 AUD, my payback is about 2 years.
Did you install it yourself? What company/brand did you use? Grid or off-grid?
@BigWheelGolf No about 0.39 AUD ie 39 cents which is expensive.
@@lliaolsen728 To get it for $3,900 Au he had to have everything ideal.
A roof suited for the Installation straight onto the roof and an up to date Main Power Board/Box.
If you have an older setup expect to spend $500 to $1000 on the Box etc?
There is a subsidy system in Australia run by the Federal Government.
All big Industrial Users and Generators must increase the amount of Renewable Energy they use or produce each year. They can do it themselves or buy Credits off the Government which they pass on to people installing Solar.
At present I think it works out about $2,600 Au for a 6.6kw Domestic system.
So in reality his system cost about $6,500 Au.
His Solar is now credited to the Generator. It will be an on Grid System to get the subsidy.
That is one of the cheaper offers but uses Tier1 Panels and probably a Medium quality 5Kw Inverter.
About 6.6 kw Panels will never deliver more than 5Kw.
Installed by Professionals. No choice to get connected to the Grid. Against the Law even off Grid with over 400v DC and the Inverter delivering 220/240V.
For excess power produced he will get about 10cents a kwh. He will probably pay about 29cents per kwh for Grid power used. Our power costs are high???? Plus we have where I live a flat $30 charge per month to be connected.
All in Au$s. An Au$ is about 72cents US now. Varies, a few years ago more than a US$.
In Australia we would never get away with some of the sloppy wiring I see in the USA. Some might but I don't like there chances. On Grid never. The final step is an Electrician comes from the Distributor and installs the new Meter. There main concern is for maintenance guys working on Distribution lines. The last thing they want is some Solar System feeding 220/240V back into local lines. All inverters are designed to stop Solar power from delivering to the Grid if there is a power cut but every installation has a sealed Fuse Link in the exterior box so they can manually isolate the Solar Systems from the Grid if they need to do that. I imagine all transmission line workers now double check before they do any work on lines.
We have no Tax Credits on Domestic installations.
A Business can write off there actual cost of installation on there Tax Return. Not sure how long. Maybe over 5 years. I think they also can get a Credit of up to $10,000.
It has become very competitive here and the Contractors very efficient.
There has to be room for the USA to get more efficient. After all most of the Panels come from China and most Inverters. Some pay more for a German inverter.
I simply do not understand why the USA is so much more expensive overall.
Maybe here it is due to having one simple Australia wide system administered by the Federal Government.
In most areas that includes the new Meter. That is up to your Regional Distributor.
I paid $5,500 Au last year. A more difficult roof and Power Box modifications.
Saves me about $1,200/1,300 per year.
Not a 2'year pay off time. More like 5/6 with the present interest you earn on money in a Bank.
Panels have a 25year Warranty and Inverter 10 years.
@@lliaolsen728 as he said, 12 years old. improved stuff since then. manufacturer has probably changed name/ownership several times since then. he showed you, he feeds into and off the grid automatically as required. Setting steel posts and frame in the ground is a basic farmer DIY thing. Farming is not from the couch. all you ask is 90% of the video. try listening.
The governments in Australia tend to support solar. I got grants and then the remainder was an interest free loan. It makes a huge difference to places where the government doesn’t assists or outright fights people
Sir..you are one genuine gentleman.No uhmms and errs ..spot on down to the point.Thank you.
With a voice like that you should be on the BBC or the US equivalent.
Greetings from the UK
Loved the video. My wife and I just moved onto 40ac and had a long debate what to do. At 70 were slowing down. I do a Lot of work in the shop with electricity welders and other items. I spend on average 6-8 hrs a day there. We thought it would be cost prohibitive to put in solar. $17000 for power, hope we didn't make a mistake. Thankyou
how has this worked for you? thinking about it for myself.
Here in Chile we pay about 18 cents per kwh. I'm installing a 3.2 kwh offgrid system and not going back to the grid. Nice vid .
Great idea. I want to install in Chicureo, wld love to visit ur system for guidance, if u permit me to. Tks nathanchile@yahoo.co.in
I'm thinking you mean "3.2kw system", correct? You are using the wrong electrical term.
@@noguruespanol i allready did. Now with my a/c amwo 14000 btu running all day i have very pleasant summer. I'm spending about 7-10 kw/h per day. I'm using a Voltronic axpert vm3 5 kw inverter, and 10 24 volt 380 watt solar panels. Peak perfomance is about 3.77 kw/h. Really happy with them. I need the inverter to work for 2.5 years to pay it.-Everything else after that is my profit (only in the inverter).
All panels are conected in series.
@@ronalddump4061 mmm not sure. But as i said before i can generate 3.77 kw/ hour....not being to technical , tha'st all i need to know. Cheers.
Thank you for the very informative video.
I’m in my early 60’s now. We put an 8.2 kW grid tied system on our roof with a 7.0 kW sunnyboy inverter in 2014. We have averaged 8,490 kWh annually over the last six years. Works out to about 60% of our total average annual electricity usage, even though we live in the Seattle area. Our heavy electrical usage includes an electric heat pump plus two battery electric automobiles, which limits our usage of natural gas to the back up furnace and tankless hot water heater and frees us from having to use any gasoline at all.
We decided to install our PV system when we did when there were still some incentives and tax breaks left. Also, we had kept putting it off because of hearing the news that new technology was just a few years out. But if waited any longer, we would be too late to benefit from solar. Like you, we looked at our solar system not as a money making endeavor, but as a way to do the right thing. The amount of greenhouse gas emissions saved while generating electricity along with the waste of burning a valuable oil based commodity and it’s associated pollution is worth the extra expense for our PV system and electric cars.
@@lolwtnick4362 Hello sir. I was wondering why you have such a negative opinion of the energy usage changes I have made over the last couple of years. I replaced a 30 year old low efficiency gas furnace with a high efficiency heat pump and back up gas furnace, a 10 year old gas hot water heater with a high efficiency on demand tankless gas water heater, incandescent light bulbs with high efficiency LED lights, and 2 gasoline powered automobiles with 2 battery electric automobiles. I also added the grid tied 25 year plus PV system generating 60% plus of our annual electrical usage. The production of, life cycle and end of life costs of the new equipment are equivalent to or lower then the replaced equipment. Reduced emissions from the new heating equipment, along with no gasoline emissions and no toxic oil changes are all a small step in the right direction. I never said I was single handedly saving the planet. That would require everyone working together to make the big changes needed. Do I feel good that I tried to make some positive changes while I still can, yes. May I ask you what changes for a better environment are you making? Please share them. Thank you for your opinion.
I think the best reason to go solar is to be self sufficient. I don't have to worry about the grid going down. Nice job on the video. Thanks!
David Armstrong Exactly
Great. But what happens to it if there’s a Carrington event again? Not trying to b a smarta$$ just wanting to know. Thanks
@@auntym4729 If we had a EMP or CME it would likely destroy part of my solar system and render it unusable until repaired. I currently don't consider it enough of a risk to justify spending the money to buy a backup system and put it in a Faraday cage to protect it. Thanks!
Best point made, “ you should do what works for you”. For me, seems there are a few places, off grid etc. Twenty five years ago I installed solar. The system lasted 15 years, and from my experience (for me), would never do it again. Not at all cost effective for me. Just listened to a guy in the Northern climate share his analysis. Pretty new, but he didn’t convince me it was cost effective. Not sure he was convinced. I like you, believe unproductive land might be ok, but good, beautiful, and productive land ...ugh. The new marketing is similar to what it was 25 years ago. The pitch, one size fits all is a scam! I enjoyed your honesty 😀
"Cost effective" is a relative concept. Our system cost $20 K - and the minute the array was energized, the house was worth $20K more. We generate more than we consume - so our electric bill dropped to the $9 monthly "service charge" for the privilege of being hooked up to the grid. In our situation, the install has been EXTRAORDINARILY cost effective - it's already paid for itself and promises to keep our ongoing costs next to nothing, and trust me, we make use of our AC. What's not to love?
@@godfreydaniel6278 Godfrey Daniel.. I wouldn't mind it in a field but I would never buy a house with it installed on the roof. What an ugly eye sore for a neighborhood and a big additional expense when replacing the roof or the under payment on a tile roof. Solar would lower the value a great deal for me.
@@josephjakubec3171 - I guess I forgot to say you can't see our array from ground level, and it's mounted without penetrating the roof - our roof is flat (a pueblo revival home) with a perimeter parapet that blocks the sight-lines of the array. The array is at a low angle, and a clever system of interlocking concrete anchors holds it in place. We just had 70 mph winds - and nothing budged...
Mr. Larson, thank you so much for this level headed, informative and honest presentation. Your video is very good.
On the solar farming topic: Take a look at what the Germans have been doing over the past few years. They basically put solar panels over about thirty percent of the field (spread out equally) on scaffolds high enough to drive the tractors and combines underneath. Off the top of my head they were only seeing about a three percent loss on crop production. Personally I think this is what we should be doing over pastures in states like SD (west river particularly). Gives the animals shade without causing any real loss to feed and provides the solar production.
Not just that. In Germany the average household electricity price is around 30 Cents per KWh. Combine that with declining prices for solar modules and very low interest rates. You see where this is going.
Brad, where does your data come? I am pretty sure 30% is way to much.
@@i_con666 My numbers on the yield loss were off %5 clover, 30% wheat. Here is a link to one of the stories: phys.org/news/2017-11-agrophotovoltaics-efficiency-percent.html
That does not make sense. crop production would be reduced pretty proportional the the lack of sunlight. I guess if it was really bad yields anyway it would be less but not on normal cropland. My family farms and I was raised on a farm. At least in the US there is a lot of very marginal farmland / ranch land that could be used.
@@gregkramer5588 The plants only need so much sunlight per day. Since the sun is moving across it's arc, the shadow does not remain in the same place. So all the plants get sun for most of the day.
Using these for power would be an interesting long term investment for the ginseng farms in Wisconsin. There are thousands of acres of farmland that are covered with shade cloth in order to grow ginseng - just imagine if they were covered with solar panels instead.
wow
yes you should use solar for low light plants
there have beensignificant developments in the Agri-PV area. I know 1 company called BayWa r.e. seems to have done a lot in the space
I suppose if sludge ponds and effluent waste ponds don't require sunlight to bake the tops then you could design in the pole structures into the waste ponds before using them , place the panels , wire it up and then fill the ponds with the stinky stuff, have a cat walk over the ponds to service the panels.
In terms of economics, it's important that these are stand-alone panels---not on a roof. It's a big advantage that he can adjust the angle of the panels to somewhat follow the sun, as opposed to a roof-top system.
Another good advantage of near-ground level panels. They're easier to clean, inspect, & maintain.
Terrificly informative video. You demystify what, for many, may be the voodoo science behind whether a solar panel system is worth the money. You're well-spoken, your editing is efficient, and you have convinced me to once again look at putting in a grid-tied system on our commercial honey operation. We use a tremendous amount of summer power in our extracting facility - we need to keep honey warm but not hot while processing - so a solar system makes sense. Thanks again!
Loved his Down to earth, common sense presentation. Seems like a lovely man that you want to be neighbors with.
The way I see it, you paved the way for manufacturers to determine there was a market and how best to make it cheaper to produce. It all starts with the people like you getting on board with it early that allows the less fortunate the opportunity to have their own. Great video, subscribed.
Yes and it will only get better as time goes on!
Hi Pete!
How many acres u have in your farm!!
We should all be doing this. You should be proud of what you've achieved, especially at a time when other people probably thought you were wrong to do it. You have also presented it so well on this channel that you make a very compelling argument. Top work Sir, top work indeed.
@Semper Fi I will do it for myself. I'm developing my design now. Why are you telling me to let everyone decide for themselves - why is that in doubt? Of course they can decide for themselves. I don't understand your point.
Just please don't buy Chinese PVs. The pollution they produce more than offsets you feeling better about using solar.
We should all have solar panels...sounds like liberal talk. That's not welcome in this part of the country. With that said, I want some too 🙃
@@albieoval1657 why are you bringing politics into this? You're jumping to a conclusion that I have some ulterior motive. I have no agenda whatsoever, other than a desire for cheap, low carbon energy for my home!
@@JJ-zg1hh Biden vs Trump. Renewable energy is a big deal. One side believes we should have renewable energy and the other side doesn't. That's why I brought it up silly buns.
I have solar equipment on order right now, and I'm so glad that you said that you put it in largely because it's the right thing to do. I have the same reasons. We don't care if our system ever "pays" for itself financially - I feel it's the right thing to do and we can afford it easily.
The funny thing is, since getting serious and ordering things, I can't walk through the neighborhood without looking at roofs and if they have a large flat southern exposure thinking "Wow you could put 15 KW on that!"
We're going with a battery too BTW. We lost net metering last year (Michigan) and get paid less than half retail for infeed. Also we have outages several times a year so keeping the fridge, freezer, water pump, internet and lights is a huge plus.
I did my own setup, I have an acre and a half of land, and my roof is heavily shaded so I did a ground mount array. I have a pair of Growatt inverters that supply up to 6 kilowatts of split phase power, 3kw on each of the two phases with a lifepo4 battery bank that I built that has roughly 15kwh of storage. I live in a state that pays next to nothing for net metering and will limit the size of your system for anything that feeds back to the grid so mine is all self consumption with the batteries storing and using it, with the ability to transfer back to the grid if the batteries are low or if I'm generating no solar and want to reserve a portion of my battery as backup. I have about 8kw of solar installed, with a 2kw array oriented for the early morning sun that begins producing power about an 2 hours before my main array, my main array of 4kw that produces from about 9am till 5 to 6 pm, and a 2 kw array that starts producing around 11am and keeps on till almost 8pm in the peak of summer. The smaller arrays I was able to add in after scoring a deal on a pallet of panels from a guy that worked in the solar industry and had this pallet of odds and ends from various jobs for $500, most of which were Canadian solar 290 watt panels. My main array is sixteen 250 watt Sunpower panels that I got for $1k. I still have another kilowatt of panels left to install, but it's eliminating the majority of my power usage in the very hot and humid south from about 9am to 9pm and leaves me with about 5 to 6 hours of power left in my batteries in case of an outage. More if I turn off a couple of my mini split ac units. We have our freezers, fridge, all the lights in the most used areas of the house, our washer, dryer, computers, home theater, small microwave and toaster oven and 2 mini split ac units and a window unit all on the system. All in its cost me about $6k and will probably pay itself off in 3 years. I did it less for the financial and more to be independent, and not have to worry so much during storm outages about keeping the generator running and fueled, plus the environmental benefits. The fact that also mostly eliminates a utility bill is just a nice bonus.
really you have no clue that its "right" its just personal warm and fuzzy feelings
The best most concise no bullshit video on this subject for the rural potential user. We're getting the hell out of Kalifornicate to a rural mini farm in the SE and this answers all the questions I have. Bravo!
You gain a lot of efficiency by shortening the DC lines, ideally that inverter would be mounted right beneath the panels, might worth looking into (BTW:we pay €0.33 per kWh over here, so payback time would be way shorter. )
Grid tie in is like a perfect battery one for one. We got micro inverters. It paid for itself fast... Missouri and fed subsidized and I did it myself. Diy saved over $10k
Paying someone else to design and install is where so much of the cost is. I don't fault them for making a living, but I have to take the DIY path -- much cheaper, plus I like knowing the details of the system.
@@PeterLawton I had 3 micro inverters go out I replaced them myself under warranty, if I had someone else do it warranty would not pay labor....so diy and knowing your system can really pay out
Our power is $0.26/kwh in the summer in Arizona...more production than you can get out there and the grid is way more expensive. Time to drop $10k. Thanks for the informative videos.
If you have a family of 4 or more. Look into having a heat pump hot water heater installed. You'll cut usage by 3500 kWh/ yr only investing $2500. If you put in your garage it pulls hot air out and will dump cool air in your garage and keep it cooler.
Thanks for the honest in-situ evaluation Pete!
Besides weathering of the covers, many people don't know that the efficiency of the photovoltaic cells degrade substantially with time as well, which is something everyone investing in a system should study.. But hopefully the degradation curves are much better for new panels than they were a few years ago...
the higher end products age really well now although the same can't be said for the low end which age poorly due to cost minimising BOM
I’m so happy that there are good people that do this type or things considering also how good it is for the environment
I will not be getting a system if you have to wait thank long to break even. You are the first one who tells you what the cost was .
There is one fly in the ointment that is generally ignored or passed over very casually. I consider such a system some years ago. At that time tax credits would pay 75% of the system (federal and state). Thus extrapolating, the video producers system would have actually cost $68,000.00. I considered that my fellow taxpayers would not want to pay for 3/4 of my system. In reality it would never pay for itself before it was a heap of scrap. So before purchasing a system, try collecting money from your willing neighbors and let us know how that works out. An alternative would be to forgo the tax credits and just pay for it yourself. I find it sad that so many are willing to spend the money of others. I did enjoy the video, especially that it covered a long time period. I would like to know the tax credit recieved by the video producer. Thanks ... Rhett
Excellent point
No brainer for me. My bill was $350/mo average with $600 bills in August and September. I installed everything myself. It is a 10kw system and we haven’t had a utility bill for ten years. Not figuring in the recent increases in electricity costs, cost was $24k after rebates. $350/mo x 120 mo = $42k - $24k = $18k savings.
I assume you live in a sunny southern state (?)
That's the piece I wish was explained. I understand the raw cost and payback, but what is the total impact, savings or payout when you consider there is no more or a reduced electric bill? I love the clip. I'm upstate NY and looking at options. I'm not a fan of a 10% savings for joining a community solar group. I have 13 acres and a great south facing exposure.
Kilroy x Yes -Sunny Southern California. But if I were to move to a different State, and I’m sorely tempted to do so, the first thing I would do is install a new solar system. I haven’t incorporated a battery wall yet, I am waiting for them to have time to fix any bugs and for the price to come down. I did install a dual-fuel generator and tied it into my 500 gallon propane tank and added a manual transfer switch. My utility has a habit of turning off our power during high-wind, low-humidity days so they don’t start any wildland fires.
Dan Wood I have a couple of acres and a S facing slope. Ground mount works best if you have the land. Makes maintenance and cleaning so much easier. With your upstate NY winters, you might want to get with a local agency to see how that affects the size of your system, especially if you are on a net metering plan. They may let you go bigger to bank energy to make up the shortage of snow times. Just do your research and you can do it yourself. There are plenty of University of TH-cam videos out there to help.
This is a great video. 12 years is about the longest payoff time I would personally consider just because of the generic risks in life.
I really appreciate your straightforward, no bones about it style. This was great. And.. I appreciate what you did.
That was the best and simplest honest explanation of solar I have ever seen. Thank you.
I read Pete's book last week and it is very good. I posted a short review on Amazon just a couple of days ago. If you like Pete and his videos, you will enjoy the book.
Great Northern 70 good to know. Thanks for sharing.
Our system generates more than a megawatt each month. The 20 panels are each 365w so much newer than yours. We live in a very sunny environment. Our payback is about 8 years.
jdonalds2001 question for you? Is it worth it? My hold up is the cost of batteries. Their ridiculous priced . Everything else is considered reasonable except the cost of the battery bank. I’ve been thinking about it for about a year and I can’t justify the cost of those batteries.....any thoughts?
The Wilder-side I would suggest that you take a look at recycled car batteries. Where I live you can get a BMW i3 battery that has been removed from a car, because it doesn’t work well anymore, re-conditioned, and used in combination with solar for very cheap. Cars need fast peak response from batteries, houses don’t.
You can use a recycled car battery or two to power your house for a very long time, like 20-30 years.
@@thewilder-side2990 Everyone's situation is different. Some background on our system. 1) Our city does not allow off-grid. This doesn't mean we can't have batteries. 2) The 20 panels we have pretty much consume the best roof-to-sun angle. 3) We have a 25 year contract with the city for net metering. 4) The city sized our system for us. We could put in a smaller system but not a larger system. 5) Our grid power is extremely reliable, perhaps down for less than 10 minutes per year on average.
From the beginning I counted the cost of adding batteries to our system as financially inefficient. The net metering aspect of our setup takes the place of batteries for the most part. For those that don't know net metering means we buy and sell power to the city at identical rates. So the city acts as a battery for us. Fortunately our city power is quite environmentally friendly.
Another thing about using batteries is the solar system has to produce more power than the house needs in order to charge the batteries. In our case we also charge our Honda Clarity PHEV from solar. Our system is nicely balanced such that it is just about the right size. On January 1, 2020 our city power meter read almost exactly what it does today August 2, 2020. If we wanted to install batteries we would have to increase the power our solar system provides so we could charge the batteries. That would mean adding more solar panels and increasing the inverter capacity. So the purchase of the battery is only one of the potential costs.
We have an extreme amount of sun here. On most days our solar does the whole job. On cloudy, hazy, or smokey days there is no way we can do without the grid, nor could we power the house, car, and charge batteries on those days from solar.
What our system does not provide is power when the grid is down. For that we have a generator which can supply all but Air Conditioning. We've only had two instances where our grid power was off for more than 24 hours; once when we had a huge local fire and had to evacuate for nine days so not having power was inconsequential, and second when we had a quite rare and unusually heavy snowfall that lasted only one day. If we had a power outage of 3 to 5 days I'm not sure batteries would be able to keep up. Our propane powered generator can last that long at least and if propane refills were available we could go on for many days.
So for us batteries don't make economic sense.
John Donaldson thank you, I really appreciate your time explaining. I live in Florida and have been debating solar for awhile. Just so confusing on different systems, justifying start up cost, batteries etc.
The Wilder-side I think of the value for a potential (and I believe inevitable) grid down situation. A whole house propane generator would cost c. $9k. I would rather invest that in a battery bank and a solar system.
The in UK, more farms are now puting spaced solar panels on a raised frame in fields with space for grazing animals underneath year long below them for shade and shelter, but enough light for grass growth.
You are a very good spokesman. I have been getting calls about installing solar for a long time. But the more I learn, the more I want to understand. The fixed cost of the system seemed higher than I expected but I dont like to be in debt making payments. I think I can do that. You have a farm and probably use much more electricity than me, a single homeowner in a subdivision and 3 bedroom house. BUT I have noticed MORE houses putting solar panels on their houses and that got my attention. Thank you for a very good explanation.
Pete, I am in awe. I believe you would be a success in any endeavor you chose.
I'm expanding my system now to a 20kw system and will be less money than what you got in yours. It has really come down in price.
@mike h
Ya their is a site called Santan solar that deals in used or blemished panels. I bought 335 watt panels for 120 each new. Got an 840 AH lithum bank for 4600 and using hybrid 5.5kw inverters i got for 700 each.
@mike h
Im in a 48 volt system with a 16s configuration. Nominal voltage of 3.2 volts per cell x 16. Then x 280ah. So 14,336 watts per string and i have 3 strings so 43,000 watt hours.
@mike h wanna bet.
mike h the panels were always the cheapest part of the equation. What’s still expensive is the inverter and batteries (as well as the charging unit).
@mike h I was referring to your comment in which you wrote about panels.
Pete thanks for all the solar information you are really on top of this subject. Here in Indiana, I was approached, through the power company, to put panels on my home and battery backup system. FOR FREE, but I would have to tear down our 30 year old river birch tree and we said no. Now I also learn that over a few months I would have to clean off the panels because of bird poop and dust and clean off the snow in the winter or I would lose the efficiency of the panels and that makes sense. Being on the roof of the house cleaning the panels is out of the question as I am not greeting younger. Also, the solar company said the only place that would be a benefit is the roof.
Finding ways to store solar energy long-term to maximize peak utilization with cost effectiveness is the key.
Pumped hydro is used to soak up excess generation. Pumped hydro has been around for decades when there was only coal-fired generation to soak up excess power generation at night. Nothing new there. But now we have new tech in the form of lithium batteries that can be deployed at grid scale.
This video is really one of a kind. Very rare to get a video of solar panels that have crossed 10 years in use. Going by the figure of 82500kWH produced in 12 years, it is about 570KwH per month on average. The generation per 1kW capacity has been 95kWH per month on average. This is a practical generation figures in areas with moderate to tropical climates (I too get 95kWH per kW capacity). I have been frustrated to see a host of videos claiming production figures ranging in 120kWH per kW capacity which was significantly higher than what I get.
Thanks for the video.
I installed my system February of 2007. Still running strong. I have 24 200 watt panels. Most cool sunny days production is over 20KW. Today we produced 25kW not bad for 14 years later. Great video. We live in Olympia, Washington. 2020 was the last year for solar production incentives. So this summer I will add a 6kw system to my roof. So I will have close to 10 kw production per year. Cost of power will only go up.
The panels shown are 170 watt while current panels are near 350 watts, so not only is it half the price, it is near twice as efficient. There is word of new solar panels with thermal recovery which will boost them even higher. It is so tempting to jump in, but I keep hearing about newer tech. I am in a suburb community and I am looking at a sol-ark 12K and loading my back roof (rated 82 sun units). No idea yet how much I can squeeze on, but I am figuring to get credits, hopefully even in winter. I may even add a car charging station and buy an electric car or 2.
Great - so refreshing to see people who prioritise the 'right think to do': wish there more of you - the world needs it. And loved your 'benign neglect' wildflower patch in front of your house, showing the beauty of nature and how it will come and keep you company if you only give it a chance. Good practical solar information too - Kudos!
Thanks for this. Glad I seen a decade using Solar Setup. Got this on recommendation. Agree solar setup is so much cheaper now
Yup i got mine for free.
@@clownanaround7996 where?
@@Laffy1345 i live in san bernardino County its called alternative grid
I agree that the products are much cheaper in 2020 but there is no way that this installation would cost $8500. If we assume panels are approx. $1 a watt and he has 6,120 watts (36 x 170) that's $6,120 just in the solar panels. Just hardware alone (panels, mounts, cable, conduit, electronics, etc..) to do the job would cost way more than $8500. I'm guessing the poles that hold them up would cost nearly that. Contractors are very expensive in 2020.
@@explorenaked Gary, please, it is not fair to guess at a correction. You should have facts before contradicting Pete's statement as to the costs of installation. What you have given us is an opinion based on what? Time lapsed and certain costs going up. Evaluate and assess the same system today and get back to us with facts not guesses because what you have put up here is misinformation in my opinion.
one aspect people often do not realize is when you put power back onto the grid during a sunny day, that power has to get used by someone else, it's not stored. Then when the sun is not shinning the utility company has to produce power at a level as if no solar ever existed on the system. Utility company has to have the same size wires/generators installed as if no solar was installed, typically load peaks especially in the winter when it's dark. In some parts of the country there is no off set at peak load. Don't forget on cloudy days the solar panels produce very little. On cloudy/sunny days the output varies and utility output has to vary also. A/C utility power has to match load. And part of the real cost to tax payers is all the government money subsidizing. It's not true free market. Overall very good explanation.
I like the fact that he's not giving you biased information/suggestions about solar panels
These are old pricing. I self installed a 7.75Kw system for $6,500 after tax credits in 2019.
He said that this was old pricing and was much cheaper now ;)
I love your way of thinking and caring for the planet.
@AvengeVoltaire I paid mine off in 4 years, at a cost of $10 Australian a week . 6.6 kw system
Your videos never disappoint as always. Your content is very well researched and put out. Thank you for the effort. Greetings from Kenya.
The wealth is in the land. Thanks for the best short presentation on solar I have seen.
Another great video. We have almost the exact same system (but with microinverters) on our lil homestead last year. Makes 120% of our needs and payback will be in 8 to 9 years. But mainly it's the right thing to do.
This is the smartest farmer I've ever seen!
Thank you for this. I have just about the same solar panel set up as yours, but I do have the lithium ion batteries to store the power. A wonderful thing when the power goes out, as it does too frequently.
One has to include in the equation the cost when a big wind blows this over.
A really well done video.
I see no reason this setup wouldn't be covered under a home or farm insurance policy. It's part of your improvements.
What about a hail storm? Would hail damage the solar cells?
I appreciate the facts laid out by this gentleman. The part he doesn't mention is that the grid to offset his lack of power generation is ruled from petroleum....period!
This was one of the better videos giving a more realistic picture. So this man is in it for 12 years and only has about half of it payed back. He is also not looking at the cost of money. But, like he said he did not install it to make money, he installed it because he was in the business and using it as a promotion. Also, he believes it was the right thing to do. I think this man proves the point that solar is not really going save you any money when you considered all the costs: installation labor, materials, maintenance, unforeseen damages, and the cost of money over time. Not to mention the headaches. However, sooner or later we may all be dependent on solar? But, at this point we will have no air conditioning, no electric heat, and no hair driers. Don't fossil fuels suck?
You are an early adopter and therefore a pioneer of renewable energy. You stand at the front of a power revolution which in my opinion has not been seen since coal. Big hat off to you. I would have installed solar a while ago but I don't have the land and my roof is not really viable. I will retire in the next couple of years and hopefully sell up and get a place where I can install adequate solar together wither ground source heat pumps. If you look at how your system has come down in price so much over 12 years then the future is bright. In the UK right now the cheapest way of producing electricity by any means is wind power. I believe that electric vehicles will become the electricity storage system for renewables and the grid. This will negate the need for subsidised fosil powered stations to be on standby for peak power demands. Charging when there is a surplus and discharging in need.
I had checked into this a bunch of years ago. New Jersey charged 6 cents per kilowatt. 3 cents for the electricity, 3 cents to use their wires to send it to you. Sending electricity back to them, you’ll get 3 cents.
I walked into a local electrical supply store that had a solar system display. I told them that there was something wrong with my calculator when I tried to see a financial benefit. He said there is nothing wrong with your calculator. I dropped the whole idea of solar power right there.
Financial benefit is only one factor with solar systems. There's a social and environmental cost as well. You are forgetting about displacing carbon emissions, pollution from mining coal/oil, the hidden social cost imposed on people's health being eroded by polluted air and so on.
Yes, your New Jersey power at 6c/kWh is supercheap. Payback is long at those rates for solar. But how long will those rates stay at those prices?
But the key thing here is not to focus too much on financial benefits. There's a reason why solar power is called green energy. It's cleaner compared to the others and there are long term benefits for everyone. You could say it's a form of charity to the health of people's lives and the environment. Just as much like people who ride their bikes to work. Yes, it takes longer to get to work but they also offset burning fossil fuel. It will cost them time more than money. There's an inherent benefit not just to the rider but to everyone else (less pollution, less cars on the road), etc.
I did a lot of the land clearing on Cornell property for the solar fields.
Your mentioning this because ?
Solar power makes sense in 3 scenarios: a remote facility off the main grid; a home in the desert southwest; or a time when incentives are too great to overlook. In the future, solar panels will be incorporated in new homes south of the Mason-Dixon line, making the system instantly financed by the mortgage and much more economical than a retro-fit. In my case, in Florida, my electric needs are $800 per year, so a typical solar system would have to last 25 years before I saw savings $1 and so on.
You must live alone in about 1000 sq ft.
Great video and explanation. I’m in the UK and had 2.25KW (9) panels fitted to south-east facing roof. That was 9 years back at a cost of £4500. They paid for themselves after 5 years and today I am in profit by £3.3K. At the time there was a government incentive to fit them with great pay-back on power generated. So far it’s generated 15280 KW. That incentive scheme pay-back was guaranteed for 25 years. Today on new installs the incentive return is very much lower, so to pay for itself will be much longer.
I like that you keep it real and speak to good and the bad in all the videos you make. I’m just getting started, moving from
the West to the East and starting our farm. Hopefully we can be moved in by the end of the year.
I like your adjustable mounting system. I am tempted to try it in my back yard here in Texas but hesitant because of our high winds and tornados.
The wiring, (so sloppy, rotten wood housing for disconnect, no plumb or level for hardware, ugly). I won't install until all photo, voltaic capacity is incorporated into roof tiles, paint and perhaps day light panels. All the steel accumulated for support detracts from the biologic layout of your lovely property as in aesthetics, blocking sunlight to garden and natural plant life, etc.
Most of our schools, here in silicon valley parking lots are covered with solar panels structures similar to yours, they do work, block rain, provide shade for teachers and students, that part is good. Today, good for commercial, industrial, government, public buildings. Farms , nature, houses need roof tiles with photo built in and color matchable
I thought you came from older generation farms inheriting that farm. Good to know youve change your life to both of the things you love.
A big factor in your calculations is the price you pay your utility for electricity. I am an energy supplier and we operate in about 10 different electricity utilities. They all vary DRAMATIACALLY in price. In many areas you would pay 20 cents per KWH from the utility. That cuts your payback time in half! Loved your video!
Nice SMA grid tied system. I have a 7.5 kVA SMA off grid system with 48V/ 800Ah battery on my farm. More than enough to supply all our daily needs.
Nice video. I like the breakdown of terminology, because I'm sure a lot of people don't know what it means when they look at their eletric bill. I have a smaller 4.3KW system that I got last year and did it for the same reasons you did. Unfortunatly I have a gable right below the panels on the roof that keeps a mound of snow on top of the panels after a big snow fall and it will stay covered till spring. Was thinking of getting a broom to clear it off for next year, but some people say you shouldn't touch the panels with anything. All in all, I'm happy to have them and have switched a lot of lawn stuff to battery operated.
As for solar on farmland there are some videos where some testing has been done to make dual purposed solar and farming the land. I forgot what they're calling it but they build panels 13 feet above the fields and crops only need so much light to grow per day so it seems to work out with the panels using some of that light as well. Plus the panel technology could be made to where they are translucent and absorb certain bandwidths of light that the plants don't need to grow. It's cool to see this emerging technology.
Oh that makes a lot of sense - I was wondering about this myself, thinking it should be useful to have that cover for something. Thanks for passing on.
Thank you for a very well explained system.Not to often you get people on here who get right to the point. You have peaked my interest in solar again.
I never knew that there were inverters that you had to knock on to read the display lol. Very cool set up, thanks for the tour!
Most of the time you have to knock on things to get them to work - temporarily.🤣
@Peter Hicks nice!
Great presentation, thanks! For a 12yr old system those are some healthy kWh production numbers.
You have wonderfully cheap power there [$0.10/kWh] which of course makes it harder for the panels to payoff.
The panels I'm installing right now [12 years later] give roughly twice the watts per panel [320W] and cost $0.46/watt. The inverters are another $0.25/watt, so all-in it's about $1/watt if I do the install myself.
Our electricity rates in CA are also way higher [$0.19 to $0.29/kWh] so I expect these panels to pay off in 4-5 years.
If full installation is included, payoff would be about 15 years.
I like this video. Honest. Objective. Good intentions. We need more humans like this guy 😊
If anyone has an old "Dish" the old 8 or 10 foot job, they really are great for adding solar panels by adding angle iron and then mounting the solar panels. The nice aspect is one can adjust the angle automatically with the original control arm.
5:07 - Hey! I thought we stopped beating the electronics to get it to do what we want when the old Zenith TV's died out: "Quality goes in before the name goes on"!
Good video. One thought: Could you benefit from buffing out the glass panels to remove the 'sunburn' and other damage thereby restoring them to their original performance?
Probably not worth the cost given the low efficiency of older panels, the leaps in solar technology since this system was constructed probably would mean it wouldn't be cost effective. For instance, for smaller systems capital costs are more like $2 or less per watt(rather than $3) and the efficiency is more like 30-35% rather than 20% in converting the solar energy to electric energy. This means that similar sized panels might generate 700W rather than 500W for instance.
A point on terminology. To a physicist, a kW is a measure of power and a kWh is a measure of energy. But for electricity supplies the word "power" is a used as a colloquial term for energy. I used to deal with energy traders in finance and they swore blind that they were dealing with dollars per unit "power" - and then measuring power using kWh - a unit of energy!
Pet, I have got to come visit with you. You have a great way of explaining the working of the system and the validity of the pay backs
Great video well done Live in new Zealand and we are getting clobbered with excessive watt/hour charges (grr) it's got to be worth going off the grid here wish me luck on that
At the local university one large panel array created so much heat it killed the vegetation under it.
This is an outstanding video, it addresses directly questions I've had regarding my small off-grid system. Thanks so much and God Bless.
you THINK SO???
Why should I take this on imm paying this? Let the feds take the risk
I listened but in the end unless you go full bore and lease to a collective if you own acres your not ahead as a small guy. Unless you want to use batteries and all. I love that he put it out that this was alot about his own personal beliefs and not necessarily about the cheddar!
Put in a 2,500 watt system in 2008 in SE Wisconsin, then a 3,400 watt system(now 4,000 watts) in Northern Arizona when we moved here in 2016. Love the idea of clean energy for myself and my neighbors. Not planning on making money off of it. Provided 70+ % of our energy needs in Wisconsin and here in Arizona I have no electric bill from December through May. Great video. PS Bought a Nissan Leaf(used) last year to absorb some of my surplus energy and eliminate pollution. Use it 95% of the time since last August.
Here in Brazil, a system like that will cost 7.000usd (20 x 380W panels and 5 x 1200W microverters). Payback in 3 years (0.2usd/kWh).
The author gets into that at 9:00
When I walked up to my electric meter and saw the wheel turning backward it was worth a whole bunch in entertainment.
@stu fields
How much entertainment value would you get with dropping $17,000 on a system? 🤑
@@paulhunter9613 Hard to quantify a "Whole Bunch" of entertainment.. I spent $70K for an experimental helicopter...
Yeah the grid charges you 10 cents per kw but only pays you 2 or 3 cents per kw when they buy your excess. He said it loses 1% per year in production but I’ve found it excellerates as it ages. Takes 25- 30 years to pay for itself. I’ll be dead before that happens. I like how people with a lot of $ feel all warm and fuzzy because they think they’re saving the planet. Kinda like the billionaires that fly their private jets to climate change conferences and use 10 times the power in their 5-10k sq ft homes that an average person uses. Solar manufacturing uses a crap load of carbon in the manufacturing process also & not to mention disposing of it after its lifespan ends. It’s all a ruse!
@@tennesseetexan1957 : Your comment is the Smartest yet!
I think solar makes a lot of sense in an off grid location where connection to the grid is prohibitive. It also makes (obviously) sense in a sunnier spot like Arizona (where I'm from). All those tax credits you mentioned aren't free either as it's yet more debt being passed on to the next generation. Regardless I appreciated your video and explaining your system, thanks 👍
About debt being passed on to the next generation. You might find this video interesting:
th-cam.com/video/NfKiW0Gfn04/w-d-xo.html
@@davidford694 maybe Keynesian Economics seems counter intuitive because it doesn't make sense. Having said that small religious Communities that take control of their agriculture needs should also take charge of their own currency. Sovereignty is the road to happiness which makes centralized govt / banking irrelevant 😎
@@JohnMarsing Roads? Schools? Internet? Where do these come from?
@matt Harvey Really? Social Security, highways, schools, agriculture support? And on and on.
I imagine I can't influence you at all, but the facts in no way support your statement.
Jesus taught us to love others as we do ourselves.
@matt Harvey Please look up the Wikipedia article on U S government spending.
Very informative, thanks for doing this! I went thru much the same process. We too would need a pedestal system vs roof mount and I'd favor an az/el one. While it's the right thing to do, we won't be alive in 25 yrs. How many people will be in the same home in 25 yrs? However, it's a perfect thing for municipalities and power companies to do. The cost of electricity per KWH is far less with solar than fossil fuels and better for the planet.
Ecofriendly farmers thank you for saving planet earth great initiative