Again, Andrew, I want to make sure that you are aware that it is your work on the religion for breakfast TH-cam channel that is responsible for my returning to IU - Bloomington to continue my Masters degree work to a PhD in Religious Studies, which I have wanted to get since I was 15 years old. I am now 64 years old and will apply for it when I am moved back to Bloomington when I turn 65 years old. Other than traveling to Roslin, Scotland to see the Rosslyn Chapel, I cannot think of a better way to welcome my 70th year! Thank you! I am so grateful!
The reason it is celebrated on a different date in Orthodox Christianity is because of the change from the Julian to the Gregorian calendar and the fact that Dec 25th in one is January 7th in the other. Orthodox Christians compensated for the change in the calendar used and Roman Catholics and Protestants did not.
TimBee100 The comment about January 6 is about the Armenian church, and they do actually celebrate it on the sixth. The Eastern Orthodox church celebrates it on the 7th due to the Julian calendar
@Dovaferret (great name btw) - I would be more interested to see what Orthodox Christians would have to say about agustin's assertions that they don't exist. ;)
The fact that the bishops didn't have much power is actually a strong argument that they would be willing to accept the will of the people rather than trying to mandate a different date.
Two points I didn't hear you address: The Gregorian calendar pushed the entire calendar back by 11 days, which could trivially explain the 12-day difference with the Eastern Church. Also, the date of conception could have easily been retroactively calculated from the date of Saturnalia, falling close enough to the accepted Passion date to justify a secondary "miracle." It would also be interesting to see the topic of medieval pagan practices addressed.
I was also thinking that it could have been backtracking the conception date from the date of celebration of birth. I had thought until this video that the difference between Western and Eastern Orthodox Christmas dates were due to the calendar change, but I don't see how that would explain differences in the date showing up hundreds of years prior to the taking on of the Gregorian calendar as this video is saying? I imagine there would naturally be an aspect of a holy day being a holy day regardless of which religion one is following, just as holy places can stay holy when the national religion changes. I also think it's logical that if 90% of the country is celebrating the birth of God on X day that even if you believe in a different god, that day remains a good day to celebrate for at least two reasons. 1- everyone else is taking the day off and celebrating so have your celebration on a day when everyone else is taking the day off...easy to get feast supplies, etc. 2- you don't draw as much attention to being 'different' from your neighbours if you're having a feast on the same day they are. I think the Egyptian calendar has always been different from the Roman...could that explain the discrepancy of Dec 25th vs 6th Jan? Was there something special about that date *in* Egypt that made it an appropriate date to choose in the same way that Saturnalia and Sol Invictus provide appropriate days that are already considered especially 'holy'?
Nope, the discrepancy in calendars thing explains why *some* Eastern Orthodox Churches who still use the Julian calendar celebrate Christmas on January 7th in the Gregorian one. But the Armenian Church specifically celebrates it on the 6th, which can either be explained with the 9-month calculation (with the aforementioned differences in Jewish calendar equivalencies explaining the difference) or due to the fact that they celebrated the baptism of Jesus rather than his birth.
Exactly, here in Greece we call the people who follow that Calendar as "Old Calendarists" , a minority of mostly very conservative Easter Orthodox Christians
Yeah and even Romans had limited contact with Germanic people back then. How come the Christians were inspired by someting they wouldn't possibly have heard of
Exactly. As an extension of the Romans' limited contact with them, the cultures that celebrated Yule were among the last to be converted and Christianized, so they don't factor into the debates about Christmas' date at all.
How many times in human history has a woman denied having secretive premarital relations with a man? I find it suspicious that there's a gestation at all. Why not just poof a baby out if its related to God in any way?
I had always figured that Christmas was aligned with the Winter Solstice, which is usually around the 21-22 these days. It was celebrated long before Saturnalia, and by most all cultures, because it represents the re-birth of the sun, meaning the point in the year when the daylight hours begin to lengthen.
It's not impossible, but there's not an awful lot about the solstice in the Bible. Yes, many ancient pagan religions give the winter solstice symbolic meaning, but linking Jesus with the sun is surely a bit tenuous? There certainly doesn't seem to be any evidence of this. Plus, the old testament specifically prohibits sun worship. Personally I think it's unlikely that the date of Christmas had _nothing_ to do with Saturnalia, since it was such a big celebration in the Roman Empire at the time in question.
@@luke-alex there's not a lot about solstice in the bible and there's Nothing about Christmas in the bible...so... Also one of the two Roman holidays he mentions in the video just so happens to be the celebration of their sun god Also a good chunk of Christian mythology can be linked back to ancient egyptian mythology. And probably the first recorded monotheistic religions was started by the Pharaoh Ahkenaten who said that the only true God was a Sun God So linking worship of the "son" (the light of the world) with the "sun" doesn't seem completely tenuous to me
I highly suggest watching The Sanctum of the Crafts videos on the history of Christmas, Saturnalia, Yule, Sol invictus, etc. She goes into how the pagan theory does answer these two remaining questions!
The argument sounds great until you realize that there is no mythology surrounding the date of Jesus' conception and that there isn't a fixed yearly date for the crucifixion (as it wanders in response to the lunar calendar) whereas the December 25th celebration preceded all this nonsense and was readily available for assimilation into Christianity by direct transfer from converts into the new religion. Aside from that, December 25th is coincidentally close to the solstice.
As i recall the popular theory involves the crucifixion darkness theory in that there was a solar eclipse discovered to have happened around the supposed time jesus was crucified but that was called into great scrutiny with other potential causes if not fully debunked
@@Pokemaster-wg9gx no. There was no solar eclipse in Jerusalem at that time. Solar eclipses are predictable events as has been known since Babylon. The solar eclipse theory is desperation rather than history.
There was mythology surrounding the dates of Jesus's conception. It was thought that prophets started living and died on the same day. Christians took it to mean that Jesus was concepted and killed on the same day. The Bible says that Jesus was killed around Passover, which was in March or April. The solstice and the date of Saturnalia are not a coincidence.
That's because it was taboo for Jews to celebrate birthdays at that time. Only coming of age, hence why it was never recorded. The December 25th actually comes from a census that an early Catholic pope claimed to have been taken by emperor Titus which says Jesus was born then
@@speedwagon1824 nope the dates are a coincidence. The celebration of saturnalia would've been controlled by the landowners who had the real power over the peasantry and as Christianity grew in prominence around the west and the Greco-Roman religion became unpopular many people started to adopt Christmas instead of saturnalia
It’s when the light begins to return from its minimum during the winter solstice on the northern hemisphere from the perspective of an unaided human eye.
Actually ancient Romans dated the solstice on the 25th on the Julian calendar, though it’s not exactly there (it would have been on the 23rd when Jesus was born and on the 20th in the fourth century)
You can also use the dates in the accounts if the Annunciation in the beginning of Luke to show the date of the Annunciation. The "sixth month" in the Macedonian calendar, which Luke being Greek could very well have used, is Julian October. Six months after Elizabeth conceives, Mary conceives, which is March. Also, we know the order of Levites who were sacrificing the in temple in 70AD when the temple was destroyed, and Zacharias' division Abijah was indeed responsible for temple duty 70 years previously in the Julian month October. Cheers.
Yes Oscar... You are right!!! and we as the Church on this earth has complete docymentation about it. Long before they started celebrating Sol Invictus, in 160 CE Mar Theophillus had celebrated Christmas on the 25th of the 9th month of Hebrew Calendar in Caesaria (De Origin Festorum Christianorum). The Coptic Didascalia Apostolorum chapter XVIII also informed us that Pope Demetrius (Baba Demitri) in 189 CE Declared that the Church must celebrate Christmas on the 25th of the 9th month according to Hebrew Calendar or the 29th of the 4th month of Coptic Calendar. Later Pope Julius I converted the date into Gregorian calendar becoming 25th Dec, while the eastern Churches maintains their calculation into julian calender on 7th Jan... Pope Julius I, decided that date after he received the information from Anba Yoanis of Nicea, that the date calculation was taken from the writing of Flavius Josephus, The Jewis War, 4th book, chapter 4 verse 1-5. When Titus burned down the Temple of God in Jerusalem, it was on 9th of month Lous. And this writing is in accordance with Talmud and Megillat Ta'anit 4.29a (dated 160 CE). That is why until now Jewish people fast on the 9th of Av. Megillat Ta'anit 29a not only informed us the date, but also the group of high priest who burned the incense in the Temple, Johejarib, the first among the 24th group mentioned in I Chro 23:7-19... From thia information we can easily check when Zeccariah who came from the group of Abia was in charge for incense burning. It turned that Gabriel met Zeccariah during the celebration of Yom Kippur on the second week of Tizri 75 years before the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus. and this information is in accordance with an ancient document Protevangelion Lakobi (170CE). Luk 1:26, Gabriel came to see Marry 6 months afterward, so it was on the month of Adar Tseni (Nisan) and it was on March if we calculate the date under Gregorian Calendar. That's why the celebration of Christmas is to be in Dec, 9 months after Gabriel met Marry. That was how the early Church especially the Coptic Church calculated the date for Christmas to be on the 25th of Kislev or 29th of Khyak. If you need further information, we welcome you to Indonesia and we will arrange a discussion with Dr. Bambang Noersena.
Happy to have found your channel.... i follow some apologists from my country... but your videos are just easier to understand and digest.... you also present them in a manner that it doesn't sound like "too religious" but something academic.... thanks much... keep on making videos!
@@oskarhenriksen The change in the Calendar by Pope Gregory X but not recognised by the Eastern Church. About 10 days were skipped, leading the Xmas in the east being in January and not December.
+ThaNinjaChipmunk I do take requests, but I have a backlog of topics! I'll eventually cover as many religious traditions as I can...both modern and ancient. Stay tuned!
@@JoshAlicea1229 Nah , Unitarians don’t believe Jesus is God, and reject the Trinity. It’s very different from Mainstream Christianity, some would suggest a different sister religion. Not saying either viewpoint is right, i don’t have an interest in that discussion, but they’re different
well, i thought it was pretty obvious, 6-7th january is in fact 25 th december but in a older calendar, that its still used in the east, in fact to the eastern Orthodox Church, we do consider the birth of the Lord to be 25th of december, but the calendar we use is around two weeks ahead, so it goes as 7th of january in the common calendar
Because it was introduced by the Catholic Church, the arch enemy of the Orthodox Churches for a long time. The othodox churches took pride in obeying the older rites the catholics got rid of and it was an important part of their identity. For a long time also their respective states kept the older julian calendar, but with the ongoing globalisation in the 19th century, one by one switched to the gregorian calendar (Greece being the last in 1923). This way the lay/civic and the religious calendar are apart from one another in the orthodox coutnries. I guess they could switch now, but people are used to having it this way, the public holidays/days off are adjusted to it, people are used to having New Years Eve before Christmas, etc. So it just stays this way.
you dont need old or new calendar. Since humans have 9months of pregnancy period. It is said that Jesus conception was on the 6th month after John the baptist' own conception. John was concieved in sep so 6months after, is march Jesus is concieved in March 25 so 9months would be dec 25.
@gaspar, the calendar controversies are a more recent and separate issue. Christmas was once celebrated in the East on Jan. 6th, on the same day as Theophany/Epiphany, when we were all on the Julian calendar. The West celebrated on Dec. 25th. Later (4th century I think) the East also moved Christmas (but not Theophany) to Dec. 25th which was then the same date the pagans celebrated Saturnalia. That is how we got the 12 Days of Christmas from the new date of Christmas until the eve of (=eve before) Theophany/Epiphany. However, the mountain kingdom of Armenia was outside the Roman Empire and Saturnalia was not a festival there, so they continued to celebrate Christmas on the same date as Theophany/Epiphany, Jan. 6th.
This is interesting. In (most?) Hispanic countries, the 6th January is celebrated as "Día de Reyes" (Day of Kings) by giving gifts to children. According to the tradition, this is the day the three Magi Kings, wise men or however you want to call them ("Reyes Magos" in Spanish, who even have names: Melchor, Gaspar & Baltazar) arrived to adore baby Jesus and give him gifts.
Yes that’s epiphany, or twelfth night, in all Catholic countries. In the church crèche they don’t put baby Jesus in the manger before Christmas Day and the wise men don’t get put out before January 6
In the Eastern Churches today, many opt to celebrate feasts with a fixed date according to the Gregorian calendar date, so that Christmas is celebrated on Dec 25, and the Feast of Epiphany/Theophany (the same three kings day) on Jan 6th/7th together with the West. But they tend to focus on Jesus' baptism as the epiphany rather than the adoration of the Magi. At some point the Western Church began celebrating the baptism separately (exactly a week later) but I've heard a few Venezuelan Christmas songs reference the baptism as taking place on January 6th, as well as a Latin Christmas poem from the 600s
Judging by the comments, most people didn’t actually *listen* to what was said in the video, and just reinforced their own beliefs of Christmas’s origins despite it being debunked and or critiqued by this video loool . People simply don’t want to be wrong
In Puerto Rico 🇵🇷 we celebrate the 25th of Dec as the birth, and then on January 6th it is said the 3 Kings (or 3 Magii) followed the Northern Star to meet Jesus and we celebrate just as like Xmas. So, this is the traditional belief, we have the longest Christmas holidays in the world. And yes, huge feasts and drinking even if you're Christian unless your a fundamental protestant; non Christians celebrate in the same manner. It's Christmas for 2 months. 😁
RCC has no truth. RCC is a c---. 95% of RCC doctrines are MAN MADE and not from the Bible, neither from Jesus or Apostles. Catholics are NOT Christians. Catholics know very well there is something wrong with their doctrines. 1. Catholics say Mary was sinless. Yet BIBLE says Mary offered a sinner's offering. Lk 2:23-24, Lev 12:6-8, Rom 3:10. 2. Catholics say RCC clergies must be celibate. Yet BIBLE says Peter had mother in law. Mat 8:14-15, Mar 1:30-31, Luk 4:38-39. 3. Catholics say Mary was perpetually virgin. Yet BIBLE says Jesus had brothers and sisters. Mk 6:3, Mat 13:55, Mat 27:56, Mar 6:3, Mar 15:40, Mar 15:47. 4. Catholics say confess to priests. Yet BIBLE says confess to GOD directly. 1 John 1:9, Mat 6, Romans 10:9-10. 5. Catholics say drink of the literal blood of Jesus. Yet BIBLE says do not drink blood. Acts 15, Lev 7:26. 6. Catholics say pray to Mary and "saints". Yet BIBLE says do not contact the dead. Deut 18:11, Isaiah 8:19. 7. Catholics say their statues are not idols. Yet BIBLE says do not bow down to graven images (statues). Deut 4, Exo 20:4-5. 8. Catholics say Holy Water. Yet BIBLE mentions nothing about it. 9. Catholics say Peter was pope. Yet BIBLE says Peter was just a leader of the Jerusalem Church. Gal 2:9, Mat 16:18 10. Catholics say there is a seat of Peter. Yet BIBLE says nothing about it. 11. Catholics say there is a NT clergy priesthood. Yet NT says OT priesthood was done away with. There is no clergy priesthood in NT. Heb 7:27, 9:12, 10:10. 12. Catholics say work for salvation (faith + good works + 7 sacraments + obedience = salvation). Yet Bible says believe in Jesus to be saved. Acts 16:30-31, John 3:16. 13. Catholics says they must do penance to atone for their sins. Yet Bible says repent, confess and sins will be forgiven. 1 John 1:9, Mat 6. 14. Catholics say Mary went straight to heaven without dying. Yet Bible says nothing about it. 15. RCC says Islam and Christianity have the same GOD. Yet Islam doesn't believe in death and resurrection of Jesus and Trinity. Roman Catholicism is full of contradiction and anti Scriptures. Nothing is more evil than a c--- disguising as Christianity deceiving many.
The best person to KNOW when is the Birthday of Jesus is His own mother, Mary. Towards the end of his stories of Jesus' infancy. Luke describes Mary's remembrance of these events, "And Mary kept all these things, reflecting on them in her heart (Luke 2:19)." From this indication, Luke thereby revealed Mary as his first eyewitness from the beginning. From her story to Luke, therefore we can derive when Jesus was born. Luke 1:5-9 Luke 1:10-25 The incensing in the Temple indicated a specific feast was being celebrated, the Feast of Tabernacles or Dedication of the Temple. This feast originated from the first dedication of the Temple by King Solomon who timed the dedication with the feast of Booths (in Hebrew Succoth or Sukkot). 1 Kings 8:1-2 All the men of Israel assembled before King Solomon during the festival in the month of Ethanim (the seventh month). In the original Roman calendar this would correspond to the month of September, so that if we calculate the time of the feast, it would have been around September 18-24. Then when Zechariah returned home and Elizabeth conceived, it would have been around September 25. Luke 1:26-38 The time in the story of the Annunciation to Mary and her subsequent conception of Jesus is mentioned twice: in v. 26 "In the sixth month," and in v. 36, "she whom people called barren is now in her sixth month." To determine this date of Mary's conception of the Lord, we simply have to add 6 months to September 25, exactly the date celebrated by the church. Ethanim, the name of the seventh month of the Canaanite calendar corresponding to the later Hebrew Tishri or to our September - October (1 Kings 8:2). The Israelites, like the Orientals in general, followed the lunar month, beginning with the new moon. In Hebrew month is yerah, which means moon, and hodes, which means new moon. The months had alternatively 29 or 30 days. To distinguish the different months the Canaaneans names, which are related to the seasons of the year, were used. In the Bible occur the months Abib, which means green ears of corn, and stood for March-April (Exodus 13:14; Deuteronomy 21:1); Ziv, meaning flower, equivalent of April-May (II Kings 6:1,37); ETHANIM, meaning constant waters, for September -October (1 Kings 8:2) and Bul, which means rain, for October-November (1 Kings 6:38). 😊
This is a great example of circular logic... Nobody: Why do you think Jesus was born on December 25th? The Church: Because he was conceived on March 25th. Nobody: Why do you think he was conceived on March 25th? The Church: Because he was born on December 25th!! Are you having a hard time following this??! Makes perfect sense.
I thought the church picked March 25th as his conception because that was the date of Jesus's death, the creation of the world, and the Vernal equinox.
One counter argument to adoption of either the Saturnalia or Sol Invictus dates is that in many other areas, Christian authorities were highly circumspect in associating holy matters with pagan ones. This changed gradually and it was much later on when Pope Gregory the Great advocated “baptism” of pagan practices where practical but it is hard to see that a bacchanalia could be baptized. Another argument is that the dates don’t match up very well. Saturnalia never overlapped with December 25 although it came close. Sol Invictus was an imperial invention that never really caught on. Also, later evidence appears to indicate that the feast of Sol Invictus postdate the Christian practice of celebrating Christmas on December 25. A number of commenters have questioned the “nine-month rule” but this belief was applied to other “great men” such as Cyrus the Great and, if memory serves, Pompey the Great.
Eastern Christians use the Julian calendar. December 25 on the Julian calendar falls 2 weeks after December 25 on the Gregorian calendar which is why they celebrate Christmas in January.
I know this is an old video, but it is interesting to me that the idea that anything might be related in anyway to astrological events is such an anathema to many modern academics. The ancient significance of the winter solstice and the allegory of the rebirth of the sun is a glaringly obvious and observable thing. You even quoted from "on solstices and equinoxes" yet didn't mention the significance.
@@davidqatan The sun sits on it's low point of the horizon for 2 days and noticeably rises on the 3rd day, which is the 25th. It is directly related to the movement of the sun.
There is a letter written back around 204a.d. That says December 25 is because they believed he was crucified on march 25th the year 33 a.d. And that all creation started on that day thousands of years before. Thus he was born 9months later. That’s why the 25th. The east believed the same but for Jan 6th being the birthday. Is there biblical evidence maybe. But that’s not what they only went off of. They used historical evidence to get there as well.
You haven’t touched on the Nordic holiday of Yule, of which many traditions are still incorporated into Christmas to this day. 12 days of Christmas, mistletoe, Santa clause, Yule log etc.
Haakon the Good placed Yule on 25th December to coincide with Christmas, not the other way round. The 12 days of Christmas result from the 12 days (including 25th) preceding Epiphany on 6th January. The first week is filled with the celebrations of the Comites Christi - Saint Stephen, Saint John the Apostle and the Holy Innocents - plus the martyr Saint Thomas Becket and the pope Saint Sylvester. After the octave day of Christmas on 1st January, the remaining days from 2nd to 4th are taken up by the octave days of the aforementioned comites. Mistletoe traditions date to the 19th century, I believe.
@@spraffman Pliny the Elder wrote of the britons revering mistletoe when it grows on oak trees, at any point of the year. But yeah the mistletoe tradition of Christmas starts with the “kissing bough” trend of the 19th century. Before then you mostly hear about decorating with holly and ivy
Yule wouldn’t have been relevant to the subject of why fourth century christians in the Mediterranean settled on December 25. They weren’t likely even aware of Yule
The Eastern Church might celebrate Christmas on Jan 6 due to the differences between Julian and Gregorian Calendars. I heard that Dec 25 was an important date from pre-history because it was the 1st day that the human eye could discern the days getting longer after the Winter Solstice.
The Greek Orthodox Church of Jerusalem, Russian Orthodox Church, Serbian Orthodox Church, Georgian Orthodox and Apostolic Church, Polish Orthodox Church, Macedonian Orthodox Church and the Greek Old Calendarists observe it on the old Julian Calendar 25th December, which is right now January 7 and will be that until the year 2100. The Armenian Orthodox Church simply never moved their date from the 6th to the 25th on the Julian calendar when everyone else did in 542 with Byzantine emperor Justinian’s decree. Then when Armenian Orthodox adapted to the Gregorian calendar in 1923 it was just on the 6th of January as well . The Armenian church in Jerusalem moved it to January 19th Sol Invictus and Christmas are on the 25th of December probably because all people in the Roman Empire at that time recognized Dec 25th as the putative winter solstice, even though that was not accurate, it would be December 20th in the fourth century. It’s hard to say whether Sol invictus or Jesus called dibs first on the date because the two holidays appear at the same time first being written down for the 354 Calendar of Philocalus
Dec 25th is, or was 2000 years ago, the midwinter solstice. This event has always been an important one in agrarian societies, and was such long before the Romans. I'm not surprised that Christmas ended up being celebrated on that day. probably not through any conscious decision, but simply for convenience over many generations. Anyway, it's not really that important.
Maybe not midwinter, but the solstice itself. The midwinter event was often several weeks later, as in Scandinavia: the first new moon after the first full moon (or vice versa) following the shortest day of the year.
It’s roots are absolutely pagan. Pagan suggests that stories, tales, ceremonial roots come from astrological phenomena. So in general, having celebrations based on astronomical events are considered pagan. Another thing failed to be mentioned was that it was called Saturnalia because Saturn ruled Capricorn during December in the cold winter. He was the lord of time because during his reign of that month the sun descends to its lowest point (death) or its “time is out” only to rise up again anew. This is why Saturn was the keeper of time. Greek equivelant is Kronos, where we get the prefix Chro- referring to cyclical and repeating/recurring time.
@@estabanb55 sure you are not my mate bro Bible is irrelevant and if you will read it all you will know more about the joke you're poisoning society with Go study some real facts sheep mate
ben jellson Why would God care about that ... I’m not a Christian for numerous reasons ... Saturnalia was celebrated in Rome .. Both Constantine and Theodosius adopted their own form of Christianity ...Theodosius was actually Emperor when Christianity really took off ... namely because Theodosius made laws making it harder to not be Christian.. really brutal laws..Many think Constantine was the emperor to have numerous Christians in his empire..... No, only about 4 million of approximately 60 million. Romans were Christian..Essentially people did not want to give up Saturnalia which was a great holiday... So it was proclaimed you can adopt Christianity and you can still celebrate saturnalia...The December holiday you see before you...Then it was just called the birthday of Jesus ...
The problem with religion is it creates close minded people that claim to be humble but refuse to accept anything that challenges their paradigm. They refuse to acknowledge this fact about the shepherds staying out in the field (which they didn't do during winter) and will become very defensive simply because it doesn't fit their paradigm. Jesus is real, and most people, most religions (including Christianity) completely miss the point when it comes to Jesus - he meant for us to live by his teachings, not build a religion centered around him
@Lion Lion Well, except as an atheist I have no intention of honoring what I see as Santa Claus for grownups. I could be wrong, but I have never heard a compelling argument nor seen or experienced any event to convince me otherwise.
Great observation that most gloss over or never do the research to discover. The fact that December 25th is tied to January 6th i.e. the 12 days of Christmas includes both birth dates as book ends. Yes, both are tied to his death but also to the annunciation of Mary in the west (Catholic) March 25th and in the East (Orthodox) April 6th/7th. And these dates are dependent upon Yom Kippur which was when the angel Gabriel was believed to have visited Zecharias and ANNOUNCED the pregnancy of Elizabeth. (Believed to be around Sept. 25th and or Oct 6th and six months into Elizabeth's pregnancy as the gospel of Luke reveals came Gabriel's visit to Mary thus the annunciation dates previously mentioned. Nine months (how long a woman was believed to be pregnant) from those dates you get December 25th and January 6th.
The calendars will always be a challenge as it was changed many times through the ages... also it's more likely that the true Messiach was born around the 7th Hebrew month, the more reliable calendar as it runs accurately with the seasons. . The exact year nobody will ever know as there are debates and conspiracies that are thousands of years old and are ongoing..
I am really enjoying your video essays. One note - Luke (the self-acclaimed historian) mentions Herod and Quirinius. Q became governor of Syria when Herod was dethroned as ethnarch of the tetrarchy of Judea in AD 6. If Luke was talking about Herod the Great, he had his dates off by 9 years. I see these two Nativity stories as stories and nothing more. The second point is that Dec. 25 is the 3rd Day after the Winter Solstice, when the days begin to perceptibly grow longer. This is what Sol Invictus was all about, and echos the many places elsewhere that insist that Jesus rose on the third day (as told in scripture). I don't know what the Eastern Orthodoxy was saying, except that they still wait a week after Western Easter to celebrate Easter. Anyway - good stuff. I am glad people are tuning in and subscribing. Keep of the good work.
This assumes that we have accurate dates of all the rulers in the various provinces. We don't. The existence of Pilate, a major Roman official, was doubted for much for the 20th century. We only have bits and pieces of the documentation that existed in the 1st century. There is the possibility that Quirinius served as governor for two separate periods or there were two people named Quirinius serving in that role. The information we have is not as concrete as we would like. Luke's text can also be translated to read that the census took place BEFORE Quirinius was governor, which also resolves the issue.
@Dave Moorman, you have some observation already... now you can read more information below to prove that Christmas was not taken from paganism but from complete ancient documentation. Long before they started celebrating Sol Invictus, in 160 CE Mar Theophillus had celebrated Christmas on the 25th of the 9th month of Hebrew Calendar in Caesaria (De Origin Festorum Christianorum). The Coptic Didascalia Apostolorum chapter XVIII also informed us that Pope Demetrius (Baba Demitri) in 189 CE Declared that the Church must celebrate Christmas on the 25th of the 9th month according to Hebrew Calendar or the 29th of the 4th month of Coptic Calendar. Later Pope Julius I converted the date into Gregorian calendar becoming 25th Dec, while the eastern Churches maintains their calculation into julian calender on 7th Jan... Pope Julius I, decided that date after he received the information from Anba Yoanis of Nicea, that the date calculation was taken from the writing of Flavius Josephus, The Jewis War, 4th book, chapter 4 verse 1-5. When Titus burned down the Temple of God in Jerusalem, it was on 9th of month Lous. And this writing is in accordance with Talmud and Megillat Ta'anit 4.29a (dated 160 CE). That is why until now Jewish people fast on the 9th of Av. Megillat Ta'anit 29a not only informed us the date, but also the group of high priest who burned the incense in the Temple, Johejarib, the first among the 24th group mentioned in I Chro 23:7-19... From thia information we can easily check when Zeccariah who came from the group of Abia was in charge for incense burning. It turned that Gabriel met Zeccariah during the celebration of Yom Kippur on the second week of Tizri 75 years before the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus. and this information is in accordance with an ancient document Protevangelion Lakobi (170CE). Luk 1:26, Gabriel came to see Marry 6 months afterward, so it was on the month of Adar Tseni (Nisan) and it was on March if we calculate the date under Gregorian Calendar. That's why the celebration of Christmas is to be in Dec, 9 months after Gabriel met Marry. That was how the early Church especially the Coptic Church calculated the date for Christmas to be on the 25th of Kislev or 29th of Khyak. If you need further information, we welcome you to Indonesia and we will arrange a discussion with Dr. Bambang Noersena.
I am fortunate enough to see something like this happening before my own eyes. I live in North Borneo, and here we have a Harvest Festival at the end of May. It used to be a pagan celebration, to thank the god Kinorohingan for a bountiful rice harvest, during which the natives will perform ritual sacrifices, spiritual dances and have a big feast. After the christianization of Borneo, the natives ditched the rituals but continued the spiritual dances and feasts. But now, instead of thanking the pagan god, we are thanking the Christian Trinity God. In some rural areas, they are even still practicing the old rituals, believing that Kinorohingan and Yahweh are the same god, since they are both the Creator. Some find this heretical, I for one find it interesting. I think over time, this Harvest Festival will officially become a Christian holiday in Borneo as it is so deeply embedded in the native culture, just like how Saturnalia was to Christmas back in the day.
One thing your video is missing which is the earliest date referencing December 25th. You gave one example from the 4th century in which sol invictus came beforehand. Sol invictus was started in 274AD. Mithraism doesnt have a December 25th date and Saturnalia has a 17th date. What you didnt include was Hipolytus 202AD his reference to the 25th of December came before all of these Pagans including Constantine.
The Hippolytus quote is somewhat in dispute, there’s some argument that it is a medieval addition “ For the first advent of the lord among us in the flesh, when he was born in Bethlehem, took place on the 8th day before the kalends of January (i.e. 25 December), a Wednesday (lit. 'the fourth day'), in the 42nd year of Augustus' reign, in the 5500th year from Adam; and he suffered in his 33rd year, on the 8th day before the kalends of April (i.e. 25 March), a Friday (lit. 'day of preparation'), in the 18th year of Tiberius Caesar's reign, in the consulship of Rufus and Rubellio.” Hippolytus, Commentary on Daniel 4.23.3 (M. Lefèvre, Hippolyte: Commentaire sur Daniel, Sources chrétiennes vol. 14, Paris: Éditions du Cerf, 1947) Augustus reigned 40 years not 42 so some think this wouldn’t have been written by a contemporary
It is a medieval quote of an earlier source. If we can't trust a quote from the 1500's because its not close enough to the time that its happened. How can you trust the disputers of this century, or modern commentaries on how long Augustus reigned? You can't have it both ways. You can't dismiss a document because its not old enough and too old at the same time. Hippolytus is only one of a great many that came before these pagan sources, these Pagan sources are all too late on the scene. The birth date of Christ is well verified. The idea that its a medieval addition is simply and ad hoc argument, Hippolytus being before all these Pagan holidays and mentioning December 25th exactly does throw quite the wrench in the whole forced "narrative" of this video.
Its true that the Roman holiday of Saturnalia had too many geographic limitations to be called the cause of choosing December 25th as the Christmas Holiday. It is also true that practically all civilizations practice some form of celebration at the Winter Solstice around December 21st which is a festival of finishing the harvest for that year -- usually a pretty wild party whether you're in Syria or Nebraska. PC land owners of early civilizations were trying to inject some legitimacy into the season by adding the birth of Christ. Add Augustine's calc's from 25 March -- time of conception and eventual death on the same day -- and we have CHRISTMAS in the middle.
Of course early Christians would not have mentioned that they were going to appropriate a pagan traditional date like the 25th into their own new tradition. This doesn't change the very real probability that they did. But as you point out the west and the east celebrated on different dates, Dec 25 and Jan 6th respectively so a combination of factors is possible of course.
The problem with arguing that the bishops of the time did not have the power to enforce Dec 25th as the date of Jesus's birth to coincide with Sol Invictus is that we have very little record of when or how quickly the practice spread. What I mean is that it is entirely possible that such a decision could have been made and even if it had been completely ignored by the majority including the Bishops when it was made, the institution of the Church would have remembered and the Church did not stay as powerless as it started out and eventually it did have the power to mandate it.
I thought the Jan 6th thing was because of the 13 day shift of the Julian Calendar vs the Gregorian one. The Syriac Orthodox Church of Antioch had an agreement with the roman catholic church that the catholics would celebrate Easter with the Orthodox if they celebrated Christmas with the cathoilcs, so we are the only Oriental Orthodox church that celebrates Christmas on December 25th. I had never heard the 9 month calculation thing before though, although I know we celebrate the annunciation on March 25. I love that you cited Jacob bar-Salibi btw, not often Western scholars cite us, they just dismiss us as "those non-chalcedonian schismatics"
One More Explanation to the 25th December. Luke 1:10, Zechariah (Father of John the Baptist) has an encounter with the angel of the Lord in the Sanctuary of the Temple, that his wife (Elizabeth) will bear a son (This day is believed by the Early Christians to fall on Yom Kippur which falls around 24th September). 9months after this, John the Baptist is born on 24th June. Luke 1:26, When Jesus was conceived in Mother Mary's womb, we know that Elizabeth(John the Baptist's Mother) was 6 months Pregnant. Therefore, 25 December is taken as Birth date of Jesus since he was conceived 6 months after John the Baptist was conceived.
Actually the Gospels do give us a very good clue about when Jesus was born, but it's something easily overlooked by anyone not familiar with 1st Temple Judaism. Luke gives us John's birth story first. His father, Zechariah, was a priest in the order of Abijah. King David (IIRC) had divided the priests into twelve orders so they wouldn't overcrowd the Temple constantly. Each order would serve twice a year, besides major holidays when they'd all be there. Zechariah could've served in either rotation, but one of them leads to surprising results. If he served in the first rotation, and John was conceived within a week afterward, then John would've been born around Passover. John was said by Jesus to be a sort of spiritual successor to Elijah; the Jews at this time (and today) believed that Elijah would return at Passover to announce the Messiah. It also means the angel Gabriel would've appeared to Mary around the time of Hanukkah-AKA, the Festival of Lights. Jesus is called the light of the world. The Book of John 8-10 records the events that took place while he was in Jerusalem during Hanukkah around the age of 30, and some of his most heated moments with the Jews come out here. Then if Jesus were conceived during Hanukkah, he would've been born around Sukkot-the Feast of Tabernacles (cf John 1:14). He was likely born on the first day of Sukkot and circumcised/named on the Last Great Day.
Therefore by the conclusion of this post comment, Jesus is conceived in the month of Kislev(the 9th month counting from nisan month thats in between the months of march and april. Specifically, the nisan 1st month of the year, is as a whole of these two months as one. Which is mid March and mid April the month nisan is culminated as.) of the Jewish calender. Which is mid November to mid December for our Gregorian calendar assimilated. Hanukkah(feasts of dedication/lights) is in early December. Kislev is the 9th month of the Hebrew Jewish calendar. Then when Jesus is born it would be in the 7th month of Tishri(counting from Nisan which is the 1st month and the 12th month in Jewish calendar is Adar) which is in between the months of mid September and mid October. Yom Teruah and Yom Kippur is before Sukkot(feasts of tabernacles). This is the season of the Atonement. Sukkot happens in late September and towards the beginning of October. Jesus is born during Sukkot. Right after that is the season of Joy in the mid of October in our modern calender but the season of Joy is the Hebrew Jewish month called Heshvan which is mid October to mid November.
I have always thought about it. The parallels are astonishingly evident. I don't know why is this not even considered by historians. Are they just ignorant? Xmas is on December 25, starting the 24th by night. Chanuka begins on Kislev 25, starting the prior night. 8 days of Chanuka, 8 days from Xmas to New Year's day. Day of circumcision. Chanuka: Festival of Lights. Xmas: Festival celebrated with lots of lights. Chanuka: gifts for the children on the Menorah lighting ceremony. "Chanuka gelt". Xmas: gifts for children and all, very commercialized on this point. Indeed, you would have to be blind not to notice all these things.
1. We know that shepherds were in the fields watching their flocks at the time of Jesus’ birth (Luke 2:7-8). Shepherds were not in the fields during December. According to Celebrations: The Complete Book of American Holidays, Luke’s account “suggests that Jesus may have been born in summer or early fall. Since December is cold and rainy in Judea, it is likely the shepherds would have sought shelter for their flocks at night” (p. 309). Similarly, The Interpreter’s One-Volume Commentary says this passage argues “against the birth [of Christ] occurring on Dec. 25 since the weather would not have permitted” shepherds watching over their flocks in the fields at night. 2. Jesus’ parents came to Bethlehem to register in a Roman census (Luke 2:1-4). Such censuses were not taken in winter, when temperatures often dropped below freezing and roads were in poor condition. Taking a census under such conditions would have been self-defeating. Given the difficulties and the desire to bring pagans into Christianity, “the important fact then … to get clearly into your head is that the fixing of the date as December 25th was a compromise with paganism” (William Walsh, The Story of Santa Klaus, 1970, p. 62). If Jesus Christ wasn’t born on December 25, does the Bible indicate when He was born? The biblical accounts point to the fall of the year as the most likely time of Jesus’ birth, based on the conception and birth of John the Baptist. Since Elizabeth (John’s mother) was in her sixth month of pregnancy when Jesus was conceived (Luke 1:24-36), we can determine the approximate time of year Jesus was born if we know when John was born. John’s father, Zacharias, was a priest serving in the Jerusalem temple during the course of Abijah (Luke 1:5). Historical calculations indicate this course of service corresponded to June 13-19 in that year ( The Companion Bible, 1974, Appendix 179, p. 200). It was during this time of temple service that Zacharias learned that he and his wife Elizabeth would have a child (Luke 1:8-13). After he completed his service and traveled home, Elizabeth conceived (Luke 1:23-24). Assuming John’s conception took place near the end of June, adding nine months brings us to the end of March as the most likely time for John’s birth. Adding another six months (the difference in ages between John and Jesus) brings us to the end of September as the likely time of Jesus’ birth.
Not to be a drag, but it would be against scholarly consensus to use singularly attested details in theologically weighted gospel texts for historical information on Jesus of Nazareth. E.g. Luke’s gospel account of the census seems to be doing much to reconcile the dual associations between Jesus’ historical hometown, Nazareth, with Isaiah’s prophecies of a Bethlehemite messiah. Matthew does similar work with the “flight to Egypt” passage. As to the true birthday of a Jewish rabbi from a town without a synagogue, let alone a public record, we are left in the dark. We are better off asking what date early Christians chose to venerate Jesus’ birth, and the type of reasoning they employed.
(+Unais eisa) My (atheist) father told me as a kid that if you read between the lines of the Bible, then you can determine that Jesus was likely born in September, but that many Christians will find that idea offensive and say that he was born on the 25th.
The best person to KNOW when is the Birthday of Jesus is His own mother, Mary. Towards the end of his stories of Jesus' infancy. Luke describes Mary's remembrance of these events, "And Mary kept all these things, reflecting on them in her heart (Luke 2:19)." From this indication, Luke thereby revealed Mary as his first eyewitness from the beginning. From her story to Luke, therefore we can derive when Jesus was born. Luke 1:5-9 Luke 1:10-25 The incensing in the Temple indicated a specific feast was being celebrated, the Feast of Tabernacles or Dedication of the Temple. This feast originated from the first dedication of the Temple by King Solomon who timed the dedication with the feast of Booths (in Hebrew Succoth or Sukkot). 1 Kings 8:1-2 All the men of Israel assembled before King Solomon during the festival in the month of Ethanim (the seventh month). In the original Roman calendar this would correspond to the month of September, so that if we calculate the time of the feast, it would have been around September 18-24. Then when Zechariah returned home and Elizabeth conceived, it would have been around September 25. Luke 1:26-38 The time in the story of the Annunciation to Mary and her subsequent conception of Jesus is mentioned twice: in v. 26 "In the sixth month," and in v. 36, "she whom people called barren is now in her sixth month." To determine this date of Mary's conception of the Lord, we simply have to add 6 months to September 25, exactly the date celebrated by the church. Ethanim, the name of the seventh month of the Canaanite calendar corresponding to the later Hebrew Tishri or to our September - October (1 Kings 8:2). The Israelites, like the Orientals in general, followed the lunar month, beginning with the new moon. In Hebrew month is yerah, which means moon, and hodes, which means new moon. The months had alternatively 29 or 30 days. To distinguish the different months the Canaaneans names, which are related to the seasons of the year, were used. In the Bible occur the months Abib, which means green ears of corn, and stood for March-April (Exodus 13:14; Deuteronomy 21:1); Ziv, meaning flower, equivalent of April-May (II Kings 6:1,37); ETHANIM, meaning constant waters, for September -October (1 Kings 8:2) and Bul, which means rain, for October-November (1 Kings 6:38). 😊😃😊
You do realize the 2 dates , the Western Church and the Easter Church celebrate Christmas is simply due to the differences in the Julian & Gregorian calendar ? It's basically the same date , there is no mystery behind it .
That may explain why Jesus' birthday is on the 25th, it doesn't dispel the notion that the customary Christmas celebrations, decorations and icons weren't originally pagan. It was the people who were Christianized, not Christians stealing holidays from Pagans OR Christians inventing their own holidays purely from the source material. I find your videos very well researched from the religious angle, however there's usually many other points of view to consider when trying to decide how things really happened and why in history.
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Man: dring my life time, Christmas and Easter and everything else have changed significatively and you want a festivity that was around during centuries along cultures miles apart to remain intact?
Yeah man I thought this Elf on the Shelf business was just something that my parents didn’t want to do but apparently it was invented in like 2006 or something
I'm really enjoying your videos and the great topics you choose! I was wondering if you would consider slowing down your pace of speech so that some of us can keep up with you better? Peace to you.
The reason the date is not mentioned is Jews did not observe personal birthdays. Second, the Jewish calendar was lunar, therefore the date changed with each year.
The official part of Saturnalia was a ceremony at the Temple of Saturn on December 17. At various times, celebration went on for three, five, or seven days. So at its peak, the festival went from December 17 to December 23. Sol Invictus was different festival that was established by Aurelian in 274. See th-cam.com/video/03SXQWRD7nk/w-d-xo.html.
@@kauffner yes but sol Invictus was given the birthdate December 25th by aurelian and since aurelian was restitutor orbis 'restorer of the world' for saving Rome, many people took to worshipping sol Invictus, it became a big deal, mix that with saturnalia which generally could last more than a week depending on time period and calender it's far to say they combined saturnalian celebrations(which were already late December so not much persuasion to accept 25th as it just meant more days for fun' with the birth date of the popular sun god to form Christmas
Saturnalia was celebrated for seven days in the late Republic. In the early empire, it was shortened to three or five days. After AD 200, the holiday was in decline, as the video explains.
@@kauffner but the celebration of sol Invictus was brought to new heights by aurelian the 'restorer of the world' did you miss that part? Sol Invictus was given dec 25th as his birthdate
In Poland we still celebrate on January 6th but we call it „the day of the three kings” (as in three wise men that went to Bethlehem) it’s even a work-free day
the western roman catholic empire prospered and influenced western europe religious culture, while the east diminished. christmas celebrated around the world is mainly western european christmas
1. Going from "christians chose the date" to "bishops probably could not alone" is an obvious strawman 2. Two different dates can mean the same day. 3. Lack of evidence is not evidence of lacking. No aspect of christmas is of exclusive christian origin. Most aspects of christmas are kapital sins in christianity.
Very interesting, thank you for your video. I may be a little late responding, but I would just like to add that Christmas is always celebrated on 25th December. The Orthodox Christians who celebrate on the 6th of January do so because this date translates from the older calendar that was in use from early days of Christianity. In other words the 25th December according to the old calendar translates to the 6th January on the modern calendar (today), because they still follow the old calendar. These Christians do not recognise the new calendar which also celebrates on the 25th December. It may sound confusing, perhaps someone else can articulate my words a little better. However, it would be easier to remember that the 25th December on the old calendar is the 6th Jan on our current calendar. And both Christian groups celebrate the 25th December according to their own calendars.
@mario, you are mistaken, podcaster is right. Also, Orthodox Christmas has fallen on Gregorian Jan. 7th for 118 years, *not* January 6th, but that has no bearing on content of the podcast.
@@michaels4255 Hi Michael, Podcaster is not right. However, I was mistaken to say the 6th, it is indeed the 7th January. The Church initially celebrated Christmas on the 25th December according to the Julian calendar, and many still follow the Julian calendar. in fact you have rightly stated for the last 118 years, but this is a misconception because that's the Church which kept the Julian calendar and they have been celebrating the same way for over 2000 years. As I said earlier the 25th December according to the Julian calendar falls on the 7th Jan according to the Gregorian. Also not all Orthodox Christians Celebrate on 7th Jan (Julian 25 Dec). Many Orthodox adopted the New Gregorian Calendar and actually celebrate 25 Dec. It was the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople (istanbul), who decreed the change from Julian to the new Gregorian calendar in 1023, but not all Orthodox Churches accepted the change. The moment the Orthodox adopted the new calendar and immediately deducted 13 days to get back to the 25th December. Incidentally the Roman Catholic Church adopted the Gregorian calendar in the 16th Century. The Orthodox would not accept this but eventually adopted it in 1923.
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Good video, and I agree with your skeptical approach, but a few remarks. First, there are pagan celebrations around the 6th of january, a feast of Dionysos (See Pliny Hist. Nat. II.106) a feast of Aion (see John the Lydian, De Mensibus) you could add the testimony of Epiphanius, mix everything and argue that the 6th of january and the 25th of december were established to replace pagan feasts but different ones ! (I don't agree obviously but that's a line of reasoning available) Second, it's not obvious that Aurelian established the feast of Sol Invictus, it might as well have been established by one of his successors. Third the Kalends of January are a far better candidate for a pagan influence on christmas altogether. Fourth, the evidence for the Integral Age theory is pretty scarce, to be honest. It amounts to talmudic speculations, the De Solstitiae, a possibly late hymn attributed to Saint Ephrem (saying that Jesus was born and killed during the month of nisan), Augustine and the Slavonic Enoch, none of which are enough to show that it was a widespread mode of thinking. Augustine and the De solstitiae stem from the same geographical region : north africa, as Botte concluded from the writing in his semi-critical edition. And in the east, you claim that christians "made the same calculations" but we have no such evidence. All Duchesne could bring in support of this (Origines du culte chrétien, p. 250 archive.org/stream/originesduculte02duchgoog#page/n271/mode/2up) was Sozomene talking about a sect of montanists who celebrated Easter on the fixed date of April the 6th. See Ecclesiastic history VII.18 "The Montanists, who are called Pepuzites and Phrygians, celebrate the Passover according to a strange fashion which they introduced. They blame those who regulate the time of observing the feast according to the course of the moon, and affirm that it is right to attend exclusively to the cycles of the sun. They reckon each month to consist of thirty days, and account the day after the vernal equinox as the first day of the year, which, according to the Roman method of computation, would be called the ninth day before the calends of April. It was on this day, they say, that the two great luminaries appointed for the indication of times and of years were created. This they prove by the fact that every eight years the sun and the moon meet together in the same point of the heavens. The moon's cycle of eight years is accomplished in ninety-nine months, and in two thousand nine hundred and twenty-two days; and during that time there are eight revolutions made by the sun, each comprising three hundred and sixty-five days, and the fourth part of a day. For they compute the day of the creation of the sun, mentioned in Sacred Writ, to have been the fourteenth day of the moon, occurring after the ninth day before the calends of the month of April, and answering to the eighth day prior to ides of the same month. They always celebrate the Passover on this day, when it falls on the day of the resurrection; otherwise they celebrate it on the following Lord's day; for it is written according to their assertion that the feast may be held on any day between the fourteenth and twenty-first." www.newadvent.org/fathers/26027.htm It's really far from people claiming those explicit calculations as their rationale for fixing the day of Christ's birth. Especially when the date of the Nativity was so hotly debated. If this was the reasoning behind it why wasn't it ever mentioned in this polemical context? Why hasn't it occured to Jerome trying to establish the date of december the 25th in Palestine to bring it up? Was this theory ubiquitous to the point of overriding preexisting celebrations (as the 6th of january seems to have more ancient roots, maybe in a basilidian feast of the baptism, cf. Clement of Alexandria Stromates 1.21.146) but then left no traces at all? It's possible but I wouldn't call any of this conclusive evidence : all of this could have emerged after the date of Christmas was fixed, as most of those writings cannot be said to predate christmas. Lacking historical evidence is nothing unusual in the history of religion, and it's not an implausible theory, but I think you overstated the certainty with which it can be supported. On the other hand there are sermons by Augustine and Pope Leo the Great about people honoring the sun on december the 25th implying pagan survivals in the western part of the empire. I don't think anything is clear cut, and that the Integral Age theory is given way too much credit because it ties everything together with a little bow while not withstanding the same amount of scrutiny that is rightly applied to the pagan origins theory. See docs.google.com/document/d/1b0AHSXwYTt5t5R0jkzXb_CF2FmgTAT8gjrdLF72IXBE/pub for the script of our episode on the subject, unfortunately in french, as you maybe guessed from my many english mishaps. But it's a great video nonetheless and we agree with 95% of it! We just discovered your channel and to be honest you're one of the best one discussing religion at the moment. Keep up the good work! -L.
Wow thanks for the very thorough follow-up. I might need to post a sequel including some of these sources. Glad to hear that you think we are discussing religion well! That is my whole mission....provide a balanced, respectful, and academic voice discussing religion on TH-cam.
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If you're not in a hurry for your sequel we could send you a more cleaned up english version of these arguments and sources for you to use.
Jan 6 is only a result of the drift in the Julian Calendar until the 100 and 400 year rules were added to the calendar by Pope Gregory X. Isaac Newton was born on "January 6 1642" by the old Julian Calendar Britain was still using but adjusted for the new Gregorian Calendar was actually born January 4 1643. The Julian Calendar which is still used to this day by the Orthodox Church is inaccurate and always drifting, which it why it was reformed. Generally this video is a heap of bull. Like Christians generally he didn't do his homework. He doesn't even know that Luke's dating suggests a decade AFTER Herod, not Herod's time. Shoddy work.
Actually, the eastern churches celebrate Christmas on 25th of December, but on the Julian Calendar. On 325, the Council of Nicaea stipulated the Equinox on 21th of March, for Easter calculating reasons. By 1582, the equinox was off by approximately 10 days from 21th of March, then 10 days were taken from the calendar on October. By the new rules , after 1600 every year multiple of 100, but not of 400, was not leap, then 3 days were tanken untill 2021. Thus 2th of December +13 days=7th of January. The date 6th of January is Epiphany Day.
The Greek Orthodox Church of Jerusalem, Russian Orthodox Church, Serbian Orthodox Church, Georgian Orthodox and Apostolic Church, Polish Orthodox Church, Macedonian Orthodox Church and the Greek Old Calendarists celebrate on the 25th on the Julian calendar which is the 7th on the Gregorian calendar. The Armenian Orthodox Church does on the 6th since they just always did on either calendar
I found something in the internet about calculating the birth of Christ through the Gospel of Luke in reference to the birth of his cousin John the Baptist. On that claim, Elizabeth was 6 nos pregnant when Mary concieved Jesus. Earlier on the Gospel, John the Baptist was concieved by Elizabeth when her husband Zechariah was inside the holy of holies offering a burnt sacrifice which only happens once every year. Then once calculated, this will give the gregorian month of December as Christ birth. Hopefully you can look into this, and include in some of your videos.
Great video, but as a historian, I highly doubt the '9 month gestation' theory, because the normal lay man would not have come up with this explanations and like you said yourself, the clergy didn't had that much authority in those days. It is far more likely that this theory was an example of scolars redconing facts to justify an already established tradition of celebrating the nativity on the same date as a pagan feast. The fact that christmas has so many pagan elements in its celebrations should be a clear case in point for that. Besides, your entire point about the calander difference comes down to a switch in calander systems: from Julian to Gregorian.
God has shown me this. Thanks be to God. Read Leviticus chapter 12. Read Numbers chapter 6. Read 1 Samuel 1! Read Luke chapter 2! 8 days after the children are circumcised and presented to Lord. Numbers 6 said when they failed to be holy basically then bring two turtles or pigeons. The vow points to that holy man child to paraphrase. See Samuel. This points to arrival of Jesus Christ. See Luke chapter 2. Notice old days are lost to paraphrase. What happens in 8 days counting Dec. 25th. The last year is lost those days are lost and all things new. The measure of time is from Jesus Christ birth. The year of our Lord Jesus Christ 2018. 8 days after the days before are lost. It is Dec. 25th. I don't believe in coincidence! I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ!
In fact, you can see this dating of birth and conception dates with other major historical figures such a Cyrus the Great. It is not a practice that came into being with Jesus.
Isaac Asimove seemed to think that both the Eastern and Western Chrismass was based on the Winter Solstice but drifted due to bad calander management. He said that he had two birthdays because he was born in Russia before they switched to the modern calender. Since Easter and All Saints Day ( Halloween) are apparently based on the Spring and Fall Equinoxes, it's easy to believe that Christmass was also based on the Solstice. I wonder sometimes if the Fourth of July might be based on the Summer Solstice, just so we got all four.
Then why do Armenians celebrate on January 6th? The Solstice/pagan theory doesn't really explain that, which has nothing to do with calendars because it predates the Gregorian calendar by a lot
Jesus began his ministry at about 30 years of age. His ministry lasted about 3.5 years ending at his death in the month of Nisan corresponding to March/ April. Making his birth around mid October.
@Gregory Jones... We must calculate everything according to the ancient documents. Long before they started celebrating Sol Invictus, in 160 CE Mar Theophillus had celebrated Christmas on the 25th of the 9th month of Hebrew Calendar in Caesaria (De Origin Festorum Christianorum). The Coptic Didascalia Apostolorum chapter XVIII also informed us that Pope Demetrius (Baba Demitri) in 189 CE Declared that the Church must celebrate Christmas on the 25th of the 9th month according to Hebrew Calendar or the 29th of the 4th month of Coptic Calendar. Later Pope Julius I converted the date into Gregorian calendar becoming 25th Dec, while the eastern Churches maintains their calculation into julian calender on 7th Jan... Pope Julius I, decided that date after he received the information from Anba Yoanis of Nicea, that the date calculation was taken from the writing of Flavius Josephus, The Jewis War, 4th book, chapter 4 verse 1-5. When Titus burned down the Temple of God in Jerusalem, it was on 9th of month Lous. And this writing is in accordance with Talmud and Megillat Ta'anit 4.29a (dated 160 CE). That is why until now Jewish people fast on the 9th of Av. Megillat Ta'anit 29a not only informed us the date, but also the group of high priest who burned the incense in the Temple, Johejarib, the first among the 24th group mentioned in I Chro 23:7-19... From thia information we can easily check when Zeccariah who came from the group of Abia was in charge for incense burning. It turned that Gabriel met Zeccariah during the celebration of Yom Kippur on the second week of Tizri 75 years before the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus. and this information is in accordance with an ancient document Protevangelion Lakobi (170CE). Luk 1:26, Gabriel came to see Marry 6 months afterward, so it was on the month of Adar Tseni (Nisan) and it was on March if we calculate the date under Gregorian Calendar. That's why the celebration of Christmas is to be in Dec, 9 months after Gabriel met Marry. That was how the early Church especially the Coptic Church calculated the date for Christmas to be on the 25th of Kislev or 29th of Khyak. If you need further information, we welcome you to Indonesia and we will arrange a discussion with Dr. Bambang Noersena.
It was to incorporate the festivals of other religions into their own to help with conversion into Christianity. Like the Norse Yule and the Roman Saturnalia or the winter solstice.
UnratedAwesomeness In the winter, they're kept in pens or even barns, to keep them warm. In the spring, the shepherds take them up to freshly sprouting fields in high hills and mountains to fatten them up. (think of Heidi) Westerners think of Judea as a hot desert with palm trees - but in the winter, there is often snow in the highlands like Bethlehem & Jerusalem - and the shepherds would have taken their sheep even higher up mountains. And why up mountains? You don't want the sheep eating the spouting crops in the lower, more fertile and easier to farm areas where you live.
This is incorrect, shepherds from ancient times to this day are in their fields with their sheep during winter. Sheep are also specially made for cold climates, hence the wool.
I was Baptized in 1968, I was 12yo. I was taught that Dec. 25th was arrived at from 9 months after Christ had risen to be Born Again. I know, the math doesn't quite add up but back then, they had a different calendar. It only matters that we celebrate his birth, not so much the actual day.
Are you forgetting that they had not agreed on Christ being a divinity until the Council of Nicea in 325 AD. So celebrating his birth wasnt a common practice until then. Please address this!
St. Gregory Thaumaturgus ("Wonderworker") in the 3rd century was already promoting celebrations of Christmas that would compare favorably with the prominent pagan festivities that were observed that time of year. Also, Priest Arius' teaching that Christ was a created being and only God in a metaphorical or lesser sense was controversial because the opposite belief was already widely held. For example, Origen in the 3rd century (in Alexandria, the same city where Fr. Arius later served as a priest) clearly taught that the Logos was co-eternal with the Father. Earlier that century, the Sabellians in North Africa believed so strongly in the Son's deity that they eliminated any real distinction between the hypostases. Confusing the hypostases (personae in Latin) was rejected as a heresy, but the Son's co-equal deity was not widely questioned until Arius in the 4th century. The word Trinitas is documented in the late second century, and may have been in use earlier than its first surviving attestation. The doctrine of Arius is connected with the popularity of Neo-platonism. Neoplatonism held that spirit was good and matter was bad, so the thought that God, who is spirit, has become incarnate in a material body struck many people in Hellenistic culture as unseemly. Thus, the Corinthians in St. Paul's day wanted to spiritualize the resurrected body, the gnostics invented various heresies that sharply distinguished the pure world of spirit from the tainted world of matter, and Arius reduced the incarnate Logos to a lesser, created being.
From what I've read in the esoteric community, it seems the belief about the March 25th conception/crucifixion centers around a 33-year cycle that his life was supposedly aligned with precisely. This is reportedly connected with the number's significance in Freemasonry. In some sense, every year of Christ's life was taken as a degree in the process of Initiation, though the explicit metaphors in the ceremonies follow a different allegory featuring a character named Hiram Abiff. I'd love to hear what you have to say about the connection between early Christianity and the Hermetic Tradition.
@TheLostAge I fail to see your point. ReligionForBreakfast asserts that the gospels agree upon Jesus' birth and that he was born under Herod the great, which is blatantly false.
@@johnlux6635 I mean, there is the fact that he ended up having thousands of followers, plus, we have primary sources telling us of people who met Jesus themselves.
@@BurnBird1 What primary sources? You should have led with them instead of the non sources you listed. Zeus had thousands of followers, do you believe in him as well?
@@johnlux6635 Paul is a primary source, since we have his direct words regarding people who met Jesus. Zeus doesn't exist since for one, he's a god, secondly, he is not reported to have existed within a specific time or place, like Jesus was. Just give it up. I get that you've watched a few Richard Carrier videos and that you feel super intelligent for having done so, but that dude's a hack and no serious historians really dismiss the existence of a guy named Jesus running around preaching in Roman Palestine.
The Jewish calendar adds leap year days called Adar 2: "The long journey leading to the addition of the Leap Day (added on February 29 every four years, but not on the century years, but actually yes on century years if they are divisible by 400) began with Julius Caesar’s introduction of the Julian calendar in 46 BCE, after his sojourn in Egypt showed him that the previous calendar was no longer working. " There are reverse 40 week gestation calendars online but I haven't found one yet that goes back to dates 4BC - 2BC on the Jewish calendar. But anyway, the "6th month" of Adar falls within specifications for a late December delivery.
Except the were coming up with his birth and life as there isn't much evidence of dates even if he existed at all. Second they are both on the soltice.....
Good information but you arrived at the wrong conclusion. The 6th of January is just 12 days after the start of Saturnalia. You mentioned that these festivals went on for several days and that Saturnalia was a big one. Celebrating the end of it on the 6th of January is a big reason why some celebrate Jesus' birth on that date. But others have mentioned the case of the 2 calendars which also makes sense. In any case, the answer is: Yes, Christmas is basically a reformulated pagan celebration.
January 6th on the old Armenian Calendar used to be Dec 25th on the Julian Calendar. When the Armenians adopted the Julian Calendar they simply shifted their celebrations to the new January 6th.
The celebration of Christmas has nothing to do with the birth of Jesus Christ or any religion. The winter solstice occurs on December 21st. That's when the sun reaches its lowest point in the sky at noon. The sun then stays at that point for a few days and then starts to rise higher into the sky. This occurs on December 25th and our ancestors 1,000s of years ago celebrated the occasion of longer days and the return of warmer weather (rebirth of the land).
@Franz, the sun starts rising higher (remaining visible longer) the very next day. I remain unenlightened as to exactly what day Sol Invictus was celebrated (on the Solstice, which is logical, or on the 25th?), or what connection Saturn or the Saturnalia of December 25th had with Sol Invictus or the winter solstice.
Come June 21, the summer solstice, look up the time of sunset. You'll see that it remains fixed at the same time for a few days. The same happens at the winter solstice.
While they may not have been able to strictly enforce decrees in that time period the decrees could still have been a "standard" that eventually evolved into tradition still practiced today....
"A more robust theory has to account for regional differences" --> goes to propose alternative theory that doesn't account for regional differences I'm a little lost as to that argument... Couldn't it just be multifactorial?
Is literally does though, it explains the differences between the West (25th of December) and the East (6th of January) on account of the different calculations they made on Jesus' birth. I agree, however, that a multifactorial explanation is possible.
Germans have half a day on December 24. (literally "holy evening" aka Christmas eve, whe get our presents that evening), 25. and 26. (literally "first and second Christmas day"). No idea why exactly it's two days.
![[LIVE] : ONE ลุมพินี 88 | คู่เอก "ป้อมเพชร vs อัสลามจอน"](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/1ZqTVVbMgbo/mqdefault.jpg)
Again, Andrew, I want to make sure that you are aware that it is your work on the religion for breakfast TH-cam channel that is responsible for my returning to IU - Bloomington to continue my Masters degree work to a PhD in Religious Studies, which I have wanted to get since I was 15 years old. I am now 64 years old and will apply for it when I am moved back to Bloomington when I turn 65 years old. Other than traveling to Roslin, Scotland to see the Rosslyn Chapel, I cannot think of a better way to welcome my 70th year! Thank you! I am so grateful!
Congratulations on returning to study your passion! And good luck, I hope it goes really well and you get everything your dreamed of out of it!!!
I pray the best for you
Hi Arielle, I'm just now seeing this. So cool to hear that the channel inspired you! Best of luck with your studies.
I hope you enjoyed Roslin! My home town
It's great to see Harry so interested in Muggle religion
Hey, Harry is himself a Christ-figure, after all ;)
you seriously deserve more likes!!!
@@maxsmith4412 uNdErRaTeD cOmMeNt!!!1!
Aww I thought I was going to be the unique one who referenced Harry Potter.
Harry Potter, Luke Sky Walker, Neo... they all want to be like Jesus.
The reason it is celebrated on a different date in Orthodox Christianity is because of the change from the Julian to the Gregorian calendar and the fact that Dec 25th in one is January 7th in the other. Orthodox Christians compensated for the change in the calendar used and Roman Catholics and Protestants did not.
TimBee100 The comment about January 6 is about the Armenian church, and they do actually celebrate it on the sixth. The Eastern Orthodox church celebrates it on the 7th due to the Julian calendar
Armenian church is not orthodox but monophistic
Then why are they two separate dates now?
TimBee100 thats no true, Protestats use julian calendar , also Orthodox Christians dont exist, they are Arrians
@Dovaferret (great name btw) - I would be more interested to see what Orthodox Christians would have to say about agustin's assertions that they don't exist. ;)
The fact that the bishops didn't have much power is actually a strong argument that they would be willing to accept the will of the people rather than trying to mandate a different date.
Two points I didn't hear you address:
The Gregorian calendar pushed the entire calendar back by 11 days, which could trivially explain the 12-day difference with the Eastern Church.
Also, the date of conception could have easily been retroactively calculated from the date of Saturnalia, falling close enough to the accepted Passion date to justify a secondary "miracle."
It would also be interesting to see the topic of medieval pagan practices addressed.
my thoughts exactly regarding the difference between East and West. Calendar one.
I was also thinking that it could have been backtracking the conception date from the date of celebration of birth.
I had thought until this video that the difference between Western and Eastern Orthodox Christmas dates were due to the calendar change, but I don't see how that would explain differences in the date showing up hundreds of years prior to the taking on of the Gregorian calendar as this video is saying?
I imagine there would naturally be an aspect of a holy day being a holy day regardless of which religion one is following, just as holy places can stay holy when the national religion changes.
I also think it's logical that if 90% of the country is celebrating the birth of God on X day that even if you believe in a different god, that day remains a good day to celebrate for at least two reasons. 1- everyone else is taking the day off and celebrating so have your celebration on a day when everyone else is taking the day off...easy to get feast supplies, etc. 2- you don't draw as much attention to being 'different' from your neighbours if you're having a feast on the same day they are.
I think the Egyptian calendar has always been different from the Roman...could that explain the discrepancy of Dec 25th vs 6th Jan? Was there something special about that date *in* Egypt that made it an appropriate date to choose in the same way that Saturnalia and Sol Invictus provide appropriate days that are already considered especially 'holy'?
Nope it's actually due to the day that Copts calculated from the birth of John the Baptist who was born 6 months before Jesus
Nope, the discrepancy in calendars thing explains why *some* Eastern Orthodox Churches who still use the Julian calendar celebrate Christmas on January 7th in the Gregorian one. But the Armenian Church specifically celebrates it on the 6th, which can either be explained with the 9-month calculation (with the aforementioned differences in Jewish calendar equivalencies explaining the difference) or due to the fact that they celebrated the baptism of Jesus rather than his birth.
Exactly, here in Greece we call the people who follow that Calendar as "Old Calendarists" , a minority of mostly very conservative Easter Orthodox Christians
Kinda annoys me when people say it's cause of Yule when Yule wasn't widespread outside of Germanic areas
Yeah and even Romans had limited contact with Germanic people back then. How come the Christians were inspired by someting they wouldn't possibly have heard of
Exactly. As an extension of the Romans' limited contact with them, the cultures that celebrated Yule were among the last to be converted and Christianized, so they don't factor into the debates about Christmas' date at all.
Had never heard of the 9 months gestation calculation. Very cool Andrew. As always very engaging!
+Z. Taylor I know right? The Saturnalia and Sol Invictus lines of evidence get so much press time, that no one really questions it.
The annunciation of the Virgin Mary is celebrated on March 25th since the 4th century AD
How many times in human history has a woman denied having secretive premarital relations with a man? I find it suspicious that there's a gestation at all. Why not just poof a baby out if its related to God in any way?
I had always figured that Christmas was aligned with the Winter Solstice, which is usually around the 21-22 these days. It was celebrated long before Saturnalia, and by most all cultures, because it represents the re-birth of the sun, meaning the point in the year when the daylight hours begin to lengthen.
It's not impossible, but there's not an awful lot about the solstice in the Bible. Yes, many ancient pagan religions give the winter solstice symbolic meaning, but linking Jesus with the sun is surely a bit tenuous? There certainly doesn't seem to be any evidence of this. Plus, the old testament specifically prohibits sun worship.
Personally I think it's unlikely that the date of Christmas had _nothing_ to do with Saturnalia, since it was such a big celebration in the Roman Empire at the time in question.
No
@@luke-alex there's not a lot about solstice in the bible and there's Nothing about Christmas in the bible...so...
Also one of the two Roman holidays he mentions in the video just so happens to be the celebration of their sun god
Also a good chunk of Christian mythology can be linked back to ancient egyptian mythology. And probably the first recorded monotheistic religions was started by the Pharaoh Ahkenaten who said that the only true God was a Sun God
So linking worship of the "son" (the light of the world) with the "sun" doesn't seem completely tenuous to me
Ofc it is. Easyer to push theyr fake story by doing this
Yup. Like obviously. It's Jul/Yule, and Christians did their usual thing with pagan traditions they couldn't get rid off - they adopted it.
Spectacular topics. What I love about being alive today is there is so much more to learn. I thought I knew these topics. Keep learning ....
I highly suggest watching The Sanctum of the Crafts videos on the history of Christmas, Saturnalia, Yule, Sol invictus, etc. She goes into how the pagan theory does answer these two remaining questions!
I love your work. I’m really interested in religious history, but most videos on TH-cam are biased. I really appreciate what you’re doing here.
The argument sounds great until you realize that there is no mythology surrounding the date of Jesus' conception and that there isn't a fixed yearly date for the crucifixion (as it wanders in response to the lunar calendar) whereas the December 25th celebration preceded all this nonsense and was readily available for assimilation into Christianity by direct transfer from converts into the new religion. Aside from that, December 25th is coincidentally close to the solstice.
As i recall the popular theory involves the crucifixion darkness theory in that there was a solar eclipse discovered to have happened around the supposed time jesus was crucified but that was called into great scrutiny with other potential causes if not fully debunked
@@Pokemaster-wg9gx no. There was no solar eclipse in Jerusalem at that time. Solar eclipses are predictable events as has been known since Babylon. The solar eclipse theory is desperation rather than history.
There was mythology surrounding the dates of Jesus's conception. It was thought that prophets started living and died on the same day. Christians took it to mean that Jesus was concepted and killed on the same day. The Bible says that Jesus was killed around Passover, which was in March or April.
The solstice and the date of Saturnalia are not a coincidence.
That's because it was taboo for Jews to celebrate birthdays at that time. Only coming of age, hence why it was never recorded. The December 25th actually comes from a census that an early Catholic pope claimed to have been taken by emperor Titus which says Jesus was born then
@@speedwagon1824 nope the dates are a coincidence. The celebration of saturnalia would've been controlled by the landowners who had the real power over the peasantry and as Christianity grew in prominence around the west and the Greco-Roman religion became unpopular many people started to adopt Christmas instead of saturnalia
It’s when the light begins to return from its minimum during the winter solstice on the northern hemisphere from the perspective of an unaided human eye.
🤫
They don’t want the truth.
People prefer to be lied to.
Actually ancient Romans dated the solstice on the 25th on the Julian calendar, though it’s not exactly there (it would have been on the 23rd when Jesus was born and on the 20th in the fourth century)
You can also use the dates in the accounts if the Annunciation in the beginning of Luke to show the date of the Annunciation. The "sixth month" in the Macedonian calendar, which Luke being Greek could very well have used, is Julian October. Six months after Elizabeth conceives, Mary conceives, which is March. Also, we know the order of Levites who were sacrificing the in temple in 70AD when the temple was destroyed, and Zacharias' division Abijah was indeed responsible for temple duty 70 years previously in the Julian month October. Cheers.
Yes Oscar... You are right!!! and we as the Church on this earth has complete docymentation about it.
Long before they started celebrating Sol Invictus, in 160 CE Mar Theophillus had celebrated Christmas on the 25th of the 9th month of Hebrew Calendar in Caesaria (De Origin Festorum Christianorum).
The Coptic Didascalia Apostolorum chapter XVIII also informed us that Pope Demetrius (Baba Demitri) in 189 CE Declared that the Church must celebrate Christmas on the 25th of the 9th month according to Hebrew Calendar or the 29th of the 4th month of Coptic Calendar.
Later Pope Julius I converted the date into Gregorian calendar becoming 25th Dec, while the eastern Churches maintains their calculation into julian calender on 7th Jan...
Pope Julius I, decided that date after he received the information from Anba Yoanis of Nicea, that the date calculation was taken from the writing of Flavius Josephus, The Jewis War, 4th book, chapter 4 verse 1-5. When Titus burned down the Temple of God in Jerusalem, it was on 9th of month Lous. And this writing is in accordance with Talmud and Megillat Ta'anit 4.29a (dated 160 CE). That is why until now Jewish people fast on the 9th of Av.
Megillat Ta'anit 29a not only informed us the date, but also the group of high priest who burned the incense in the Temple, Johejarib, the first among the 24th group mentioned in I Chro 23:7-19... From thia information we can easily check when Zeccariah who came from the group of Abia was in charge for incense burning. It turned that Gabriel met Zeccariah during the celebration of Yom Kippur on the second week of Tizri 75 years before the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus. and this information is in accordance with an ancient document Protevangelion Lakobi (170CE).
Luk 1:26, Gabriel came to see Marry 6 months afterward, so it was on the month of Adar Tseni (Nisan) and it was on March if we calculate the date under Gregorian Calendar. That's why the celebration of Christmas is to be in Dec, 9 months after Gabriel met Marry. That was how the early Church especially the Coptic Church calculated the date for Christmas to be on the 25th of Kislev or 29th of Khyak.
If you need further information, we welcome you to Indonesia and we will arrange a discussion with Dr. Bambang Noersena.
Happy to have found your channel.... i follow some apologists from my country... but your videos are just easier to understand and digest.... you also present them in a manner that it doesn't sound like "too religious" but something academic.... thanks much... keep on making videos!
Glad you found it! And yes, this channel is dedicated to the academic study of religion. Definitely not apologetics.
Too bad he doesn't do his homework. The calendar blooper is a BIG one.
@@PeterGregoryKelly Explain, please?
@@oskarhenriksen The change in the Calendar by Pope Gregory X but not recognised by the Eastern Church. About 10 days were skipped, leading the Xmas in the east being in January and not December.
@truthseeker how?
Hey, I'm not sure if you take requests, but if you do, it would be cool to see a video on the history and beliefs of Unitarianism. Thanks!
+ThaNinjaChipmunk I do take requests, but I have a backlog of topics! I'll eventually cover as many religious traditions as I can...both modern and ancient. Stay tuned!
+ReligionForBreakfast Alright awesome. Thanks.
What beliefs? They accept them all lol
@@JoshAlicea1229 Nah , Unitarians don’t believe Jesus is God, and reject the Trinity. It’s very different from Mainstream Christianity, some would suggest a different sister religion.
Not saying either viewpoint is right, i don’t have an interest in that discussion, but they’re different
If he takes requests why not ask for freebird!!!
well, i thought it was pretty obvious, 6-7th january is in fact 25 th december but in a older calendar, that its still used in the east, in fact to the eastern Orthodox Church, we do consider the birth of the Lord to be 25th of december, but the calendar we use is around two weeks ahead, so it goes as 7th of january in the common calendar
Then why are they two separate dates now? Why didn't the eastern church just concede to the new calendar?
Because it was introduced by the Catholic Church, the arch enemy of the Orthodox Churches for a long time. The othodox churches took pride in obeying the older rites the catholics got rid of and it was an important part of their identity.
For a long time also their respective states kept the older julian calendar, but with the ongoing globalisation in the 19th century, one by one switched to the gregorian calendar (Greece being the last in 1923). This way the lay/civic and the religious calendar are apart from one another in the orthodox coutnries.
I guess they could switch now, but people are used to having it this way, the public holidays/days off are adjusted to it, people are used to having New Years Eve before Christmas, etc. So it just stays this way.
you dont need old or new calendar. Since humans have 9months of pregnancy period. It is said that Jesus conception was on the 6th month after John the baptist' own conception. John was concieved in sep so 6months after, is march Jesus is concieved in March 25 so 9months would be dec 25.
also. hannukka is still celebrated in the same date so its still accurate.
@gaspar, the calendar controversies are a more recent and separate issue. Christmas was once celebrated in the East on Jan. 6th, on the same day as Theophany/Epiphany, when we were all on the Julian calendar. The West celebrated on Dec. 25th. Later (4th century I think) the East also moved Christmas (but not Theophany) to Dec. 25th which was then the same date the pagans celebrated Saturnalia. That is how we got the 12 Days of Christmas from the new date of Christmas until the eve of (=eve before) Theophany/Epiphany. However, the mountain kingdom of Armenia was outside the Roman Empire and Saturnalia was not a festival there, so they continued to celebrate Christmas on the same date as Theophany/Epiphany, Jan. 6th.
This is interesting. In (most?) Hispanic countries, the 6th January is celebrated as "Día de Reyes" (Day of Kings) by giving gifts to children. According to the tradition, this is the day the three Magi Kings, wise men or however you want to call them ("Reyes Magos" in Spanish, who even have names: Melchor, Gaspar & Baltazar) arrived to adore baby Jesus and give him gifts.
Yes that’s epiphany, or twelfth night, in all Catholic countries. In the church crèche they don’t put baby Jesus in the manger before Christmas Day and the wise men don’t get put out before January 6
In the Eastern Churches today, many opt to celebrate feasts with a fixed date according to the Gregorian calendar date, so that Christmas is celebrated on Dec 25, and the Feast of Epiphany/Theophany (the same three kings day) on Jan 6th/7th together with the West. But they tend to focus on Jesus' baptism as the epiphany rather than the adoration of the Magi.
At some point the Western Church began celebrating the baptism separately (exactly a week later) but I've heard a few Venezuelan Christmas songs reference the baptism as taking place on January 6th, as well as a Latin Christmas poem from the 600s
Judging by the comments, most people didn’t actually *listen* to what was said in the video, and just reinforced their own beliefs of Christmas’s origins despite it being debunked and or critiqued by this video loool .
People simply don’t want to be wrong
In Puerto Rico 🇵🇷 we celebrate the 25th of Dec as the birth, and then on January 6th it is said the 3 Kings (or 3 Magii) followed the Northern Star to meet Jesus and we celebrate just as like Xmas. So, this is the traditional belief, we have the longest Christmas holidays in the world. And yes, huge feasts and drinking even if you're Christian unless your a fundamental protestant; non Christians celebrate in the same manner. It's Christmas for 2 months. 😁
We Filipinos in the Philippines celebrate Christmas from September we call it BER months until the 6th of January.
Growing up as a Catholic, the March 25 explanation was the most often I hear from priests
RCC has no truth. RCC is a c---.
95% of RCC doctrines are MAN MADE and not from the Bible, neither from Jesus or Apostles.
Catholics are NOT Christians.
Catholics know very well there is something wrong with their doctrines.
1. Catholics say Mary was sinless. Yet BIBLE says Mary offered a sinner's offering. Lk 2:23-24, Lev 12:6-8, Rom 3:10.
2. Catholics say RCC clergies must be celibate. Yet BIBLE says Peter had mother in law. Mat 8:14-15, Mar 1:30-31, Luk 4:38-39.
3. Catholics say Mary was perpetually virgin. Yet BIBLE says Jesus had brothers and sisters. Mk 6:3, Mat 13:55, Mat 27:56, Mar 6:3, Mar 15:40, Mar 15:47.
4. Catholics say confess to priests. Yet BIBLE says confess to GOD directly. 1 John 1:9, Mat 6, Romans 10:9-10.
5. Catholics say drink of the literal blood of Jesus. Yet BIBLE says do not drink blood. Acts 15, Lev 7:26.
6. Catholics say pray to Mary and "saints". Yet BIBLE says do not contact the dead. Deut 18:11, Isaiah 8:19.
7. Catholics say their statues are not idols. Yet BIBLE says do not bow down to graven images (statues). Deut 4, Exo 20:4-5.
8. Catholics say Holy Water. Yet BIBLE mentions nothing about it.
9. Catholics say Peter was pope. Yet BIBLE says Peter was just a leader of the Jerusalem Church. Gal 2:9, Mat 16:18
10. Catholics say there is a seat of Peter. Yet BIBLE says nothing about it.
11. Catholics say there is a NT clergy priesthood. Yet NT says OT priesthood was done away with. There is no clergy priesthood in NT. Heb 7:27, 9:12, 10:10.
12. Catholics say work for salvation (faith + good works + 7 sacraments + obedience = salvation). Yet Bible says believe in Jesus to be saved. Acts 16:30-31, John 3:16.
13. Catholics says they must do penance to atone for their sins. Yet Bible says repent, confess and sins will be forgiven. 1 John 1:9, Mat 6.
14. Catholics say Mary went straight to heaven without dying. Yet Bible says nothing about it.
15. RCC says Islam and Christianity have the same GOD. Yet Islam doesn't believe in death and resurrection of Jesus and Trinity.
Roman Catholicism is full of contradiction and anti Scriptures. Nothing is more evil than a c--- disguising as Christianity deceiving many.
@@jediv3381 agreed
The best person to KNOW when is the Birthday of Jesus is His own mother, Mary.
Towards the end of his stories of Jesus' infancy. Luke describes Mary's remembrance of these events, "And Mary kept all these things, reflecting on them in her heart (Luke 2:19)." From this indication, Luke thereby revealed Mary as his first eyewitness from the beginning. From her story to Luke, therefore we can derive when Jesus was born.
Luke 1:5-9
Luke 1:10-25
The incensing in the Temple indicated a specific feast was being celebrated, the Feast of Tabernacles or Dedication of the Temple. This feast originated from the first dedication of the Temple by King Solomon who timed the dedication with the feast of Booths (in Hebrew Succoth or Sukkot).
1 Kings 8:1-2
All the men of Israel assembled before King Solomon during the festival in the month of Ethanim (the seventh month). In the original Roman calendar this would correspond to the month of September, so that if we calculate the time of the feast, it would have been around September 18-24. Then when Zechariah returned home and Elizabeth conceived, it would have been around September 25.
Luke 1:26-38
The time in the story of the Annunciation to Mary and her subsequent conception of Jesus is mentioned twice: in v. 26 "In the sixth month," and in v. 36, "she whom people called barren is now in her sixth month."
To determine this date of Mary's conception of the Lord, we simply have to add 6 months to September 25, exactly the date celebrated by the church.
Ethanim, the name of the seventh month of the Canaanite calendar corresponding to the later Hebrew Tishri or to our September - October (1 Kings 8:2).
The Israelites, like the Orientals in general, followed the lunar month, beginning with the new moon. In Hebrew month is yerah, which means moon, and hodes, which means new moon. The months had alternatively 29 or 30 days. To distinguish the different months the Canaaneans names, which are related to the seasons of the year, were used.
In the Bible occur the months Abib, which means green ears of corn, and stood for March-April (Exodus 13:14; Deuteronomy 21:1); Ziv, meaning flower, equivalent of April-May (II Kings 6:1,37); ETHANIM, meaning constant waters, for September -October (1 Kings 8:2) and Bul, which means rain, for October-November (1 Kings 6:38). 😊
If u all are interested I can explain to u all about this
This is a great example of circular logic...
Nobody: Why do you think Jesus was born on December 25th?
The Church: Because he was conceived on March 25th.
Nobody: Why do you think he was conceived on March 25th?
The Church: Because he was born on December 25th!! Are you having a hard time following this??!
Makes perfect sense.
I thought the church picked March 25th as his conception because that was the date of Jesus's death, the creation of the world, and the Vernal equinox.
One counter argument to adoption of either the Saturnalia or Sol Invictus dates is that in many other areas, Christian authorities were highly circumspect in associating holy matters with pagan ones. This changed gradually and it was much later on when Pope Gregory the Great advocated “baptism” of pagan practices where practical but it is hard to see that a bacchanalia could be baptized.
Another argument is that the dates don’t match up very well. Saturnalia never overlapped with December 25 although it came close. Sol Invictus was an imperial invention that never really caught on. Also, later evidence appears to indicate that the feast of Sol Invictus postdate the Christian practice of celebrating Christmas on December 25.
A number of commenters have questioned the “nine-month rule” but this belief was applied to other “great men” such as Cyrus the Great and, if memory serves, Pompey the Great.
Eastern Christians use the Julian calendar. December 25 on the Julian calendar falls 2 weeks after December 25 on the Gregorian calendar which is why they celebrate Christmas in January.
I know this is an old video, but it is interesting to me that the idea that anything might be related in anyway to astrological events is such an anathema to many modern academics. The ancient significance of the winter solstice and the allegory of the rebirth of the sun is a glaringly obvious and observable thing. You even quoted from "on solstices and equinoxes" yet didn't mention the significance.
The Bible is chock full of (and unintelligible without) astrological references.
Christmas is past the solstice. Why is it important or relevant when the calculation from death day is probable.
@@davidqatan The sun sits on it's low point of the horizon for 2 days and noticeably rises on the 3rd day, which is the 25th. It is directly related to the movement of the sun.
There is a letter written back around 204a.d. That says December 25 is because they believed he was crucified on march 25th the year 33 a.d. And that all creation started on that day thousands of years before. Thus he was born 9months later. That’s why the 25th. The east believed the same but for Jan 6th being the birthday. Is there biblical evidence maybe. But that’s not what they only went off of. They used historical evidence to get there as well.
It doesn't matter when they celebrate it or why, the point is that they celebrate it. That is all that matters.
You haven’t touched on the Nordic holiday of Yule, of which many traditions are still incorporated into Christmas to this day.
12 days of Christmas, mistletoe, Santa clause, Yule log etc.
Santa Clause is based on an Anatolian saint named Nicholas.
Very different in finland or sweden
Haakon the Good placed Yule on 25th December to coincide with Christmas, not the other way round.
The 12 days of Christmas result from the 12 days (including 25th) preceding Epiphany on 6th January. The first week is filled with the celebrations of the Comites Christi - Saint Stephen, Saint John the Apostle and the Holy Innocents - plus the martyr Saint Thomas Becket and the pope Saint Sylvester. After the octave day of Christmas on 1st January, the remaining days from 2nd to 4th are taken up by the octave days of the aforementioned comites.
Mistletoe traditions date to the 19th century, I believe.
@@spraffman Pliny the Elder wrote of the britons revering mistletoe when it grows on oak trees, at any point of the year. But yeah the mistletoe tradition of Christmas starts with the “kissing bough” trend of the 19th century. Before then you mostly hear about decorating with holly and ivy
Yule wouldn’t have been relevant to the subject of why fourth century christians in the Mediterranean settled on December 25. They weren’t likely even aware of Yule
If the date of Christmas was chosen because of Saturnalia, wouldn't it have been on December 17th?
I never heard that people believed jesus was conceived and and died on the same day. Interesting.
The Eastern Church might celebrate Christmas on Jan 6 due to the differences between Julian and Gregorian Calendars. I heard that Dec 25 was an important date from pre-history because it was the 1st day that the human eye could discern the days getting longer after the Winter Solstice.
The Greek Orthodox Church of Jerusalem, Russian Orthodox Church, Serbian Orthodox Church, Georgian Orthodox and Apostolic Church, Polish Orthodox Church, Macedonian Orthodox Church and the Greek Old Calendarists observe it on the old Julian Calendar 25th December, which is right now January 7 and will be that until the year 2100.
The Armenian Orthodox Church simply never moved their date from the 6th to the 25th on the Julian calendar when everyone else did in 542 with Byzantine emperor Justinian’s decree. Then when Armenian Orthodox adapted to the Gregorian calendar in 1923 it was just on the 6th of January as well . The Armenian church in Jerusalem moved it to January 19th
Sol Invictus and Christmas are on the 25th of December probably because all people in the Roman Empire at that time recognized Dec 25th as the putative winter solstice, even though that was not accurate, it would be December 20th in the fourth century. It’s hard to say whether Sol invictus or Jesus called dibs first on the date because the two holidays appear at the same time first being written down for the 354 Calendar of Philocalus
Dec 25th is, or was 2000 years ago, the midwinter solstice. This event has always been an important one in agrarian societies, and was such long before the Romans. I'm not surprised that Christmas ended up being celebrated on that day. probably not through any conscious decision, but simply for convenience over many generations. Anyway, it's not really that important.
Maybe not midwinter, but the solstice itself. The midwinter event was often several weeks later, as in Scandinavia: the first new moon after the first full moon (or vice versa) following the shortest day of the year.
I really like this approach: probably it just so happened and it's really not that important 😄
I mean really, I like it 😄
It’s roots are absolutely pagan. Pagan suggests that stories, tales, ceremonial roots come from astrological phenomena. So in general, having celebrations based on astronomical events are considered pagan.
Another thing failed to be mentioned was that it was called Saturnalia because Saturn ruled Capricorn during December in the cold winter. He was the lord of time because during his reign of that month the sun descends to its lowest point (death) or its “time is out” only to rise up again anew. This is why Saturn was the keeper of time. Greek equivelant is Kronos, where we get the prefix Chro- referring to cyclical and repeating/recurring time.
anyways Jesus didn't say to remember his birth but to remember his death ( Luke 22:19 )
Period!
Jesus said nothing mate.
Grow up
🤣😂 it's so funny you dont read the bible and I'm not your mate
@@estabanb55 sure you are not my mate bro
Bible is irrelevant and if you will read it all you will know more about the joke you're poisoning society with
Go study some real facts sheep mate
@@cristosanto815 just respect people’s beliefs
I’ve been saying my whole life for over 35 years that Jesus was born on April 1 and also died on April 1
Makes perfect sense when you think about it.
This doesn't work because of the dates of Zachariah working in the temple mean either December or September.
I love you dude. I really appreciate all the videos. Please don't stop
The pagan origins theory feels like another example of correlation ≠ causation
Saturnalia... very big holiday ... Jesus was born when the Shepard’s were in the field ... So, absolutely not December...
Oops! Why do people miss that obvious part of the story???
God could have defied any law of physics so it could be summer even if it supposed to be winter.
ben jellson Why would God care about that ... I’m not a Christian for numerous reasons ... Saturnalia was celebrated in Rome .. Both Constantine and Theodosius adopted their own form of Christianity ...Theodosius was actually Emperor when Christianity really took off ... namely because Theodosius made laws making it harder to not be Christian.. really brutal laws..Many think Constantine was the emperor to have numerous Christians in his empire..... No, only about 4 million of approximately 60 million. Romans were Christian..Essentially people did not want to give up Saturnalia which was a great holiday... So it was proclaimed you can adopt Christianity and you can still celebrate saturnalia...The December holiday you see before you...Then it was just called the birthday of Jesus ...
The problem with religion is it creates close minded people that claim to be humble but refuse to accept anything that challenges their paradigm. They refuse to acknowledge this fact about the shepherds staying out in the field (which they didn't do during winter) and will become very defensive simply because it doesn't fit their paradigm. Jesus is real, and most people, most religions (including Christianity) completely miss the point when it comes to Jesus - he meant for us to live by his teachings, not build a religion centered around him
@Lion Lion Well, except as an atheist I have no intention of honoring what I see as Santa Claus for grownups.
I could be wrong, but I have never heard a compelling argument nor seen or experienced any event to convince me otherwise.
Great observation that most gloss over or never do the research to discover. The fact that December 25th is tied to January 6th i.e. the 12 days of Christmas includes both birth dates as book ends. Yes, both are tied to his death but also to the annunciation of Mary in the west (Catholic) March 25th and in the East (Orthodox) April 6th/7th. And these dates are dependent upon Yom Kippur which was when the angel Gabriel was believed to have visited Zecharias and ANNOUNCED the pregnancy of Elizabeth. (Believed to be around Sept. 25th and or Oct 6th and six months into Elizabeth's pregnancy as the gospel of Luke reveals came Gabriel's visit to Mary thus the annunciation dates previously mentioned. Nine months (how long a woman was believed to be pregnant) from those dates you get December 25th and January 6th.
Isn't pregnancy 40 weeks though? 10 months from conception to birth
The calendars will always be a challenge as it was changed many times through the ages... also it's more likely that the true Messiach was born around the 7th Hebrew month, the more reliable calendar as it runs accurately with the seasons. . The exact year nobody will ever know as there are debates and conspiracies that are thousands of years old and are ongoing..
I am really enjoying your video essays. One note - Luke (the self-acclaimed historian) mentions Herod and Quirinius. Q became governor of Syria when Herod was dethroned as ethnarch of the tetrarchy of Judea in AD 6. If Luke was talking about Herod the Great, he had his dates off by 9 years. I see these two Nativity stories as stories and nothing more.
The second point is that Dec. 25 is the 3rd Day after the Winter Solstice, when the days begin to perceptibly grow longer. This is what Sol Invictus was all about, and echos the many places elsewhere that insist that Jesus rose on the third day (as told in scripture). I don't know what the Eastern Orthodoxy was saying, except that they still wait a week after Western Easter to celebrate Easter.
Anyway - good stuff. I am glad people are tuning in and subscribing. Keep of the good work.
This assumes that we have accurate dates of all the rulers in the various provinces. We don't. The existence of Pilate, a major Roman official, was doubted for much for the 20th century. We only have bits and pieces of the documentation that existed in the 1st century.
There is the possibility that Quirinius served as governor for two separate periods or there were two people named Quirinius serving in that role. The information we have is not as concrete as we would like.
Luke's text can also be translated to read that the census took place BEFORE Quirinius was governor, which also resolves the issue.
@Dave Moorman,
you have some observation already... now you can read more information below to prove that Christmas was not taken from paganism but from complete ancient documentation.
Long before they started celebrating Sol Invictus, in 160 CE Mar Theophillus had celebrated Christmas on the 25th of the 9th month of Hebrew Calendar in Caesaria (De Origin Festorum Christianorum).
The Coptic Didascalia Apostolorum chapter XVIII also informed us that Pope Demetrius (Baba Demitri) in 189 CE Declared that the Church must celebrate Christmas on the 25th of the 9th month according to Hebrew Calendar or the 29th of the 4th month of Coptic Calendar.
Later Pope Julius I converted the date into Gregorian calendar becoming 25th Dec, while the eastern Churches maintains their calculation into julian calender on 7th Jan...
Pope Julius I, decided that date after he received the information from Anba Yoanis of Nicea, that the date calculation was taken from the writing of Flavius Josephus, The Jewis War, 4th book, chapter 4 verse 1-5. When Titus burned down the Temple of God in Jerusalem, it was on 9th of month Lous. And this writing is in accordance with Talmud and Megillat Ta'anit 4.29a (dated 160 CE). That is why until now Jewish people fast on the 9th of Av.
Megillat Ta'anit 29a not only informed us the date, but also the group of high priest who burned the incense in the Temple, Johejarib, the first among the 24th group mentioned in I Chro 23:7-19... From thia information we can easily check when Zeccariah who came from the group of Abia was in charge for incense burning. It turned that Gabriel met Zeccariah during the celebration of Yom Kippur on the second week of Tizri 75 years before the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus. and this information is in accordance with an ancient document Protevangelion Lakobi (170CE).
Luk 1:26, Gabriel came to see Marry 6 months afterward, so it was on the month of Adar Tseni (Nisan) and it was on March if we calculate the date under Gregorian Calendar. That's why the celebration of Christmas is to be in Dec, 9 months after Gabriel met Marry. That was how the early Church especially the Coptic Church calculated the date for Christmas to be on the 25th of Kislev or 29th of Khyak.
If you need further information, we welcome you to Indonesia and we will arrange a discussion with Dr. Bambang Noersena.
I am fortunate enough to see something like this happening before my own eyes. I live in North Borneo, and here we have a Harvest Festival at the end of May.
It used to be a pagan celebration, to thank the god Kinorohingan for a bountiful rice harvest, during which the natives will perform ritual sacrifices, spiritual dances and have a big feast. After the christianization of Borneo, the natives ditched the rituals but continued the spiritual dances and feasts. But now, instead of thanking the pagan god, we are thanking the Christian Trinity God. In some rural areas, they are even still practicing the old rituals, believing that Kinorohingan and Yahweh are the same god, since they are both the Creator. Some find this heretical, I for one find it interesting.
I think over time, this Harvest Festival will officially become a Christian holiday in Borneo as it is so deeply embedded in the native culture, just like how Saturnalia was to Christmas back in the day.
I know this is an older video but I have to say I love this channel and have been watching every morning "religiously ". See what I did there:)
One thing your video is missing which is the earliest date referencing December 25th. You gave one example from the 4th century in which sol invictus came beforehand. Sol invictus was started in 274AD. Mithraism doesnt have a December 25th date and Saturnalia has a 17th date. What you didnt include was Hipolytus 202AD his reference to the 25th of December came before all of these Pagans including Constantine.
The Hippolytus quote is somewhat in dispute, there’s some argument that it is a medieval addition
“
For the first advent of the lord among us in the flesh, when he was born in Bethlehem, took place on the 8th day before the kalends of January (i.e. 25 December), a Wednesday (lit. 'the fourth day'), in the 42nd year of Augustus' reign, in the 5500th year from Adam; and he suffered in his 33rd year, on the 8th day before the kalends of April (i.e. 25 March), a Friday (lit. 'day of preparation'), in the 18th year of Tiberius Caesar's reign, in the consulship of Rufus and Rubellio.”
Hippolytus, Commentary on Daniel 4.23.3 (M. Lefèvre, Hippolyte: Commentaire sur Daniel, Sources chrétiennes vol. 14, Paris: Éditions du Cerf, 1947)
Augustus reigned 40 years not 42 so some think this wouldn’t have been written by a contemporary
It is a medieval quote of an earlier source. If we can't trust a quote from the 1500's because its not close enough to the time that its happened. How can you trust the disputers of this century, or modern commentaries on how long Augustus reigned? You can't have it both ways. You can't dismiss a document because its not old enough and too old at the same time.
Hippolytus is only one of a great many that came before these pagan sources, these Pagan sources are all too late on the scene. The birth date of Christ is well verified.
The idea that its a medieval addition is simply and ad hoc argument, Hippolytus being before all these Pagan holidays and mentioning December 25th exactly does throw quite the wrench in the whole forced "narrative" of this video.
Its true that the Roman holiday of Saturnalia had too many geographic limitations to be called the cause of choosing December 25th as the Christmas Holiday. It is also true that practically all civilizations practice some form of celebration at the Winter Solstice around December 21st which is a festival of finishing the harvest for that year -- usually a pretty wild party whether you're in Syria or Nebraska. PC land owners of early civilizations were trying to inject some legitimacy into the season by adding the birth of Christ. Add Augustine's calc's from 25 March -- time of conception and eventual death on the same day -- and we have CHRISTMAS in the middle.
Of course early Christians would not have mentioned that they were going to appropriate a pagan traditional date like the 25th into their own new tradition. This doesn't change the very real probability that they did. But as you point out the west and the east celebrated on different dates, Dec 25 and Jan 6th respectively so a combination of factors is possible of course.
The early Christians were more worried about not getting fed to the lion's by the Roman's than changing their holiday.
The problem with arguing that the bishops of the time did not have the power to enforce Dec 25th as the date of Jesus's birth to coincide with Sol Invictus is that we have very little record of when or how quickly the practice spread. What I mean is that it is entirely possible that such a decision could have been made and even if it had been completely ignored by the majority including the Bishops when it was made, the institution of the Church would have remembered and the Church did not stay as powerless as it started out and eventually it did have the power to mandate it.
I thought the Jan 6th thing was because of the 13 day shift of the Julian Calendar vs the Gregorian one. The Syriac Orthodox Church of Antioch had an agreement with the roman catholic church that the catholics would celebrate Easter with the Orthodox if they celebrated Christmas with the cathoilcs, so we are the only Oriental Orthodox church that celebrates Christmas on December 25th. I had never heard the 9 month calculation thing before though, although I know we celebrate the annunciation on March 25. I love that you cited Jacob bar-Salibi btw, not often Western scholars cite us, they just dismiss us as "those non-chalcedonian schismatics"
Shlomo, nice to see a fellow Syriac Orthodox faithful
One More Explanation to the 25th December.
Luke 1:10, Zechariah (Father of John the Baptist) has an encounter with the angel of the Lord in the Sanctuary of the Temple, that his wife (Elizabeth) will bear a son (This day is believed by the Early Christians to fall on Yom Kippur which falls around 24th September). 9months after this, John the Baptist is born on 24th June. Luke 1:26, When Jesus was conceived in Mother Mary's womb, we know that Elizabeth(John the Baptist's Mother) was 6 months Pregnant. Therefore, 25 December is taken as Birth date of Jesus since he was conceived 6 months after John the Baptist was conceived.
Actually the Gospels do give us a very good clue about when Jesus was born, but it's something easily overlooked by anyone not familiar with 1st Temple Judaism.
Luke gives us John's birth story first. His father, Zechariah, was a priest in the order of Abijah. King David (IIRC) had divided the priests into twelve orders so they wouldn't overcrowd the Temple constantly. Each order would serve twice a year, besides major holidays when they'd all be there.
Zechariah could've served in either rotation, but one of them leads to surprising results. If he served in the first rotation, and John was conceived within a week afterward, then John would've been born around Passover. John was said by Jesus to be a sort of spiritual successor to Elijah; the Jews at this time (and today) believed that Elijah would return at Passover to announce the Messiah.
It also means the angel Gabriel would've appeared to Mary around the time of Hanukkah-AKA, the Festival of Lights. Jesus is called the light of the world. The Book of John 8-10 records the events that took place while he was in Jerusalem during Hanukkah around the age of 30, and some of his most heated moments with the Jews come out here.
Then if Jesus were conceived during Hanukkah, he would've been born around Sukkot-the Feast of Tabernacles (cf John 1:14). He was likely born on the first day of Sukkot and circumcised/named on the Last Great Day.
So what day is that in what month
season atleast?
Therefore by the conclusion of this post comment, Jesus is conceived in the month of Kislev(the 9th month counting from nisan month thats in between the months of march and april. Specifically, the nisan 1st month of the year, is as a whole of these two months as one. Which is mid March and mid April the month nisan is culminated as.) of the Jewish calender. Which is mid November to mid December for our Gregorian calendar assimilated. Hanukkah(feasts of dedication/lights) is in early December. Kislev is the 9th month of the Hebrew Jewish calendar. Then when Jesus is born it would be in the 7th month of Tishri(counting from Nisan which is the 1st month and the 12th month in Jewish calendar is Adar) which is in between the months of mid September and mid October. Yom Teruah and Yom Kippur is before Sukkot(feasts of tabernacles). This is the season of the Atonement. Sukkot happens in late September and towards the beginning of October. Jesus is born during Sukkot. Right after that is the season of Joy in the mid of October in our modern calender but the season of Joy is the Hebrew Jewish month called Heshvan which is mid October to mid November.
I have always thought about it. The parallels are astonishingly evident. I don't know why is this not even considered by historians. Are they just ignorant?
Xmas is on December 25, starting the 24th by night. Chanuka begins on Kislev 25, starting the prior night.
8 days of Chanuka, 8 days from Xmas to New Year's day. Day of circumcision.
Chanuka: Festival of Lights.
Xmas: Festival celebrated with lots of lights.
Chanuka: gifts for the children on the Menorah lighting ceremony. "Chanuka gelt".
Xmas: gifts for children and all, very commercialized on this point.
Indeed, you would have to be blind not to notice all these things.
Fully agree with this comment! Spot on.
The earliest writing we have on the belief that Jesus was born on dec 25th, 9 months after the crucfixion is from the year 204 a.d.
Jesus said for us to remember him by The Bread and Wine. He said nothing about so-called Christmas.
LOVED THIS! Was super confused and needed to get to the facts ! great video
As always, loved the video! Keep up the good work.
+CainGrey Glad you liked it!
I like your vids, they approach religion from a historical standpoint and not a religious one.
Glad you like them. You're correct that my whole approach is to present religion from an academic, not devotional, perspective.
1. We know that shepherds were in the fields watching their flocks at the time of Jesus’ birth (Luke 2:7-8).
Shepherds were not in the fields during December. According to Celebrations: The Complete Book of American Holidays, Luke’s account “suggests that Jesus may have been born in summer or early fall. Since December is cold and rainy in Judea, it is likely the shepherds would have sought shelter for their flocks at night” (p. 309).
Similarly, The Interpreter’s One-Volume Commentary says this passage argues “against the birth [of Christ] occurring on Dec. 25 since the weather would not have permitted” shepherds watching over their flocks in the fields at night.
2. Jesus’ parents came to Bethlehem to register in a Roman census (Luke 2:1-4).
Such censuses were not taken in winter, when temperatures often dropped below freezing and roads were in poor condition. Taking a census under such conditions would have been self-defeating.
Given the difficulties and the desire to bring pagans into Christianity, “the important fact then … to get clearly into your head is that the fixing of the date as December 25th was a compromise with paganism” (William Walsh, The Story of Santa Klaus, 1970, p. 62).
If Jesus Christ wasn’t born on December 25, does the Bible indicate when He was born?
The biblical accounts point to the fall of the year as the most likely time of Jesus’ birth, based on the conception and birth of John the Baptist.
Since Elizabeth (John’s mother) was in her sixth month of pregnancy when Jesus was conceived (Luke 1:24-36), we can determine the approximate time of year Jesus was born if we know when John was born. John’s father, Zacharias, was a priest serving in the Jerusalem temple during the course of Abijah (Luke 1:5). Historical calculations indicate this course of service corresponded to June 13-19 in that year ( The Companion Bible, 1974, Appendix 179, p. 200).
It was during this time of temple service that Zacharias learned that he and his wife Elizabeth would have a child (Luke 1:8-13). After he completed his service and traveled home, Elizabeth conceived (Luke 1:23-24). Assuming John’s conception took place near the end of June, adding nine months brings us to the end of March as the most likely time for John’s birth. Adding another six months (the difference in ages between John and Jesus) brings us to the end of September as the likely time of Jesus’ birth.
Not to be a drag, but it would be against scholarly consensus to use singularly attested details in theologically weighted gospel texts for historical information on Jesus of Nazareth.
E.g. Luke’s gospel account of the census seems to be doing much to reconcile the dual associations between Jesus’ historical hometown, Nazareth, with Isaiah’s prophecies of a Bethlehemite messiah. Matthew does similar work with the “flight to Egypt” passage.
As to the true birthday of a Jewish rabbi from a town without a synagogue, let alone a public record, we are left in the dark. We are better off asking what date early Christians chose to venerate Jesus’ birth, and the type of reasoning they employed.
(+Unais eisa) My (atheist) father told me as a kid that if you read between the lines of the Bible, then you can determine that Jesus was likely born in September, but that many Christians will find that idea offensive and say that he was born on the 25th.
The best person to KNOW when is the Birthday of Jesus is His own mother, Mary.
Towards the end of his stories of Jesus' infancy. Luke describes Mary's remembrance of these events, "And Mary kept all these things, reflecting on them in her heart (Luke 2:19)." From this indication, Luke thereby revealed Mary as his first eyewitness from the beginning. From her story to Luke, therefore we can derive when Jesus was born.
Luke 1:5-9
Luke 1:10-25
The incensing in the Temple indicated a specific feast was being celebrated, the Feast of Tabernacles or Dedication of the Temple. This feast originated from the first dedication of the Temple by King Solomon who timed the dedication with the feast of Booths (in Hebrew Succoth or Sukkot).
1 Kings 8:1-2
All the men of Israel assembled before King Solomon during the festival in the month of Ethanim (the seventh month). In the original Roman calendar this would correspond to the month of September, so that if we calculate the time of the feast, it would have been around September 18-24. Then when Zechariah returned home and Elizabeth conceived, it would have been around September 25.
Luke 1:26-38
The time in the story of the Annunciation to Mary and her subsequent conception of Jesus is mentioned twice: in v. 26 "In the sixth month," and in v. 36, "she whom people called barren is now in her sixth month."
To determine this date of Mary's conception of the Lord, we simply have to add 6 months to September 25, exactly the date celebrated by the church.
Ethanim, the name of the seventh month of the Canaanite calendar corresponding to the later Hebrew Tishri or to our September - October (1 Kings 8:2).
The Israelites, like the Orientals in general, followed the lunar month, beginning with the new moon. In Hebrew month is yerah, which means moon, and hodes, which means new moon. The months had alternatively 29 or 30 days. To distinguish the different months the Canaaneans names, which are related to the seasons of the year, were used.
In the Bible occur the months Abib, which means green ears of corn, and stood for March-April (Exodus 13:14; Deuteronomy 21:1); Ziv, meaning flower, equivalent of April-May (II Kings 6:1,37); ETHANIM, meaning constant waters, for September -October (1 Kings 8:2) and Bul, which means rain, for October-November (1 Kings 6:38). 😊😃😊
You do realize the 2 dates , the Western Church and the Easter Church celebrate Christmas is simply due to the differences in the Julian & Gregorian calendar ? It's basically the same date , there is no mystery behind it .
There was no such difference in the first centuries, there wasn't even a Gregorian calendar to begin with :)
You need to have a chat with Dr. Taylor Marshall.
Yeah exactly
@S p Now if we could only erase Luther, the Reformation and 40,000 prot sects.
That may explain why Jesus' birthday is on the 25th, it doesn't dispel the notion that the customary Christmas celebrations, decorations and icons weren't originally pagan. It was the people who were Christianized, not Christians stealing holidays from Pagans OR Christians inventing their own holidays purely from the source material. I find your videos very well researched from the religious angle, however there's usually many other points of view to consider when trying to decide how things really happened and why in history.
Man: dring my life time, Christmas and Easter and everything else have changed significatively and you want a festivity that was around during centuries along cultures miles apart to remain intact?
Yeah man I thought this Elf on the Shelf business was just something that my parents didn’t want to do but apparently it was invented in like 2006 or something
I'm really enjoying your videos and the great topics you choose! I was wondering if you would consider slowing down your pace of speech so that some of us can keep up with you better? Peace to you.
set player to 0.75 speed
Some of us who are Christians don't. do Christmas either day.
The reason the date is not mentioned is Jews did not observe personal birthdays. Second, the Jewish calendar was lunar, therefore the date changed with each year.
December 25 was the winter solstice in ancient Rome. It has nothing to do with Saturnalia, which was on December 17.
Saturnalia lasted all and up to dec 25th, sol Invictus was born on 25th
The official part of Saturnalia was a ceremony at the Temple of Saturn on December 17. At various times, celebration went on for three, five, or seven days. So at its peak, the festival went from December 17 to December 23. Sol Invictus was different festival that was established by Aurelian in 274. See th-cam.com/video/03SXQWRD7nk/w-d-xo.html.
@@kauffner yes but sol Invictus was given the birthdate December 25th by aurelian and since aurelian was restitutor orbis 'restorer of the world' for saving Rome, many people took to worshipping sol Invictus, it became a big deal, mix that with saturnalia which generally could last more than a week depending on time period and calender it's far to say they combined saturnalian celebrations(which were already late December so not much persuasion to accept 25th as it just meant more days for fun' with the birth date of the popular sun god to form Christmas
Saturnalia was celebrated for seven days in the late Republic. In the early empire, it was shortened to three or five days. After AD 200, the holiday was in decline, as the video explains.
@@kauffner but the celebration of sol Invictus was brought to new heights by aurelian the 'restorer of the world' did you miss that part?
Sol Invictus was given dec 25th as his birthdate
No saturnalia to blame for january 6th hits different in the year 2023
Wow, I really like the 9 months theory. Excellent!
In Poland we still celebrate on January 6th but we call it „the day of the three kings” (as in three wise men that went to Bethlehem) it’s even a work-free day
I''m putting this in my list of favorites.
the western roman catholic empire prospered and influenced western europe religious culture, while the east diminished. christmas celebrated around the world is mainly western european christmas
1. Going from "christians chose the date" to "bishops probably could not alone" is an obvious strawman
2. Two different dates can mean the same day.
3. Lack of evidence is not evidence of lacking.
No aspect of christmas is of exclusive christian origin. Most aspects of christmas are kapital sins in christianity.
Very interesting, thank you for your video. I may be a little late responding, but I would just like to add that Christmas is always celebrated on 25th December. The Orthodox Christians who celebrate on the 6th of January do so because this date translates from the older calendar that was in use from early days of Christianity.
In other words the 25th December according to the old calendar translates to the 6th January on the modern calendar (today), because they still follow the old calendar. These Christians do not recognise the new calendar which also celebrates on the 25th December.
It may sound confusing, perhaps someone else can articulate my words a little better. However, it would be easier to remember that the 25th December on the old calendar is the 6th Jan on our current calendar. And both Christian groups celebrate the 25th December according to their own calendars.
@mario, you are mistaken, podcaster is right. Also, Orthodox Christmas has fallen on Gregorian Jan. 7th for 118 years, *not* January 6th, but that has no bearing on content of the podcast.
@@michaels4255 Hi Michael, Podcaster is not right. However, I was mistaken to say the 6th, it is indeed the 7th January.
The Church initially celebrated Christmas on the 25th December according to the Julian calendar, and many still follow the Julian calendar. in fact you have rightly stated for the last 118 years, but this is a misconception because that's the Church which kept the Julian calendar and they have been celebrating the same way for over 2000 years. As I said earlier the 25th December according to the Julian calendar falls on the 7th Jan according to the Gregorian.
Also not all Orthodox Christians Celebrate on 7th Jan (Julian 25 Dec). Many Orthodox adopted the New Gregorian Calendar and actually celebrate 25 Dec. It was the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople (istanbul), who decreed the change from Julian to the new Gregorian calendar in 1023, but not all Orthodox Churches accepted the change.
The moment the Orthodox adopted the new calendar and immediately deducted 13 days to get back to the 25th December.
Incidentally the Roman Catholic Church adopted the Gregorian calendar in the 16th Century. The Orthodox would not accept this but eventually adopted it in 1923.
Good video, and I agree with your skeptical approach, but a few remarks.
First, there are pagan celebrations around the 6th of january, a feast of Dionysos (See Pliny Hist. Nat. II.106) a feast of Aion (see John the Lydian, De Mensibus) you could add the testimony of Epiphanius, mix everything and argue that the 6th of january and the 25th of december were established to replace pagan feasts but different ones ! (I don't agree obviously but that's a line of reasoning available)
Second, it's not obvious that Aurelian established the feast of Sol Invictus, it might as well have been established by one of his successors.
Third the Kalends of January are a far better candidate for a pagan influence on christmas altogether.
Fourth, the evidence for the Integral Age theory is pretty scarce, to be honest.
It amounts to talmudic speculations, the De Solstitiae, a possibly late hymn attributed to Saint Ephrem (saying that Jesus was born and killed during the month of nisan), Augustine and the Slavonic Enoch, none of which are enough to show that it was a widespread mode of thinking.
Augustine and the De solstitiae stem from the same geographical region : north africa, as Botte concluded from the writing in his semi-critical edition. And in the east, you claim that christians "made the same calculations" but we have no such evidence. All Duchesne could bring in support of this (Origines du culte chrétien, p. 250 archive.org/stream/originesduculte02duchgoog#page/n271/mode/2up) was Sozomene talking about a sect of montanists who celebrated Easter on the fixed date of April the 6th.
See Ecclesiastic history VII.18 "The Montanists, who are called Pepuzites and Phrygians, celebrate the Passover according to a strange fashion which they introduced. They blame those who regulate the time of observing the feast according to the course of the moon, and affirm that it is right to attend exclusively to the cycles of the sun. They reckon each month to consist of thirty days, and account the day after the vernal equinox as the first day of the year, which, according to the Roman method of computation, would be called the ninth day before the calends of April. It was on this day, they say, that the two great luminaries appointed for the indication of times and of years were created. This they prove by the fact that every eight years the sun and the moon meet together in the same point of the heavens. The moon's cycle of eight years is accomplished in ninety-nine months, and in two thousand nine hundred and twenty-two days; and during that time there are eight revolutions made by the sun, each comprising three hundred and sixty-five days, and the fourth part of a day. For they compute the day of the creation of the sun, mentioned in Sacred Writ, to have been the fourteenth day of the moon, occurring after the ninth day before the calends of the month of April, and answering to the eighth day prior to ides of the same month. They always celebrate the Passover on this day, when it falls on the day of the resurrection; otherwise they celebrate it on the following Lord's day; for it is written according to their assertion that the feast may be held on any day between the fourteenth and twenty-first." www.newadvent.org/fathers/26027.htm
It's really far from people claiming those explicit calculations as their rationale for fixing the day of Christ's birth. Especially when the date of the Nativity was so hotly debated. If this was the reasoning behind it why wasn't it ever mentioned in this polemical context? Why hasn't it occured to Jerome trying to establish the date of december the 25th in Palestine to bring it up? Was this theory ubiquitous to the point of overriding preexisting celebrations (as the 6th of january seems to have more ancient roots, maybe in a basilidian feast of the baptism, cf. Clement of Alexandria Stromates 1.21.146) but then left no traces at all? It's possible but I wouldn't call any of this conclusive evidence : all of this could have emerged after the date of Christmas was fixed, as most of those writings cannot be said to predate christmas. Lacking historical evidence is nothing unusual in the history of religion, and it's not an implausible theory, but I think you overstated the certainty with which it can be supported.
On the other hand there are sermons by Augustine and Pope Leo the Great about people honoring the sun on december the 25th implying pagan survivals in the western part of the empire. I don't think anything is clear cut, and that the Integral Age theory is given way too much credit because it ties everything together with a little bow while not withstanding the same amount of scrutiny that is rightly applied to the pagan origins theory.
See docs.google.com/document/d/1b0AHSXwYTt5t5R0jkzXb_CF2FmgTAT8gjrdLF72IXBE/pub for the script of our episode on the subject, unfortunately in french, as you maybe guessed from my many english mishaps.
But it's a great video nonetheless and we agree with 95% of it! We just discovered your channel and to be honest you're one of the best one discussing religion at the moment. Keep up the good work!
-L.
Wow thanks for the very thorough follow-up. I might need to post a sequel including some of these sources. Glad to hear that you think we are discussing religion well! That is my whole mission....provide a balanced, respectful, and academic voice discussing religion on TH-cam.
If you're not in a hurry for your sequel we could send you a more cleaned up english version of these arguments and sources for you to use.
Of course, that'd be great. Send them to my email religionforbreakfast@gmail.com. Thanks!
Awesome history
Jan 6 is only a result of the drift in the Julian Calendar until the 100 and 400 year rules were added to the calendar by Pope Gregory X. Isaac Newton was born on "January 6 1642" by the old Julian Calendar Britain was still using but adjusted for the new Gregorian Calendar was actually born January 4 1643. The Julian Calendar which is still used to this day by the Orthodox Church is inaccurate and always drifting, which it why it was reformed. Generally this video is a heap of bull. Like Christians generally he didn't do his homework. He doesn't even know that Luke's dating suggests a decade AFTER Herod, not Herod's time. Shoddy work.
Actually, the eastern churches celebrate Christmas on 25th of December, but on the Julian Calendar. On 325, the Council of Nicaea stipulated the Equinox on 21th of March, for Easter calculating reasons. By 1582, the equinox was off by approximately 10 days from 21th of March, then 10 days were taken from the calendar on October. By the new rules , after 1600 every year multiple of 100, but not of 400, was not leap, then 3 days were tanken untill 2021. Thus 2th of December +13 days=7th of January. The date 6th of January is Epiphany Day.
On spot! How could have that been missed in the video.
The Greek Orthodox Church of Jerusalem, Russian Orthodox Church, Serbian Orthodox Church, Georgian Orthodox and Apostolic Church, Polish Orthodox Church, Macedonian Orthodox Church and the Greek Old Calendarists celebrate on the 25th on the Julian calendar which is the 7th on the Gregorian calendar.
The Armenian Orthodox Church does on the 6th since they just always did on either calendar
Why is he so handsome? Someone that smart is not supposed to be that handsome. Unless they're actors in a movie.
Great video but I don’t recall hearing you talk about when Christmas is celebrated on Tattooine. Did I miss that?
I found something in the internet about calculating the birth of Christ through the Gospel of Luke in reference to the birth of his cousin John the Baptist.
On that claim, Elizabeth was 6 nos pregnant when Mary concieved Jesus. Earlier on the Gospel, John the Baptist was concieved by Elizabeth when her husband Zechariah was inside the holy of holies offering a burnt sacrifice which only happens once every year. Then once calculated, this will give the gregorian month of December as Christ birth.
Hopefully you can look into this, and include in some of your videos.
Not over here 😏 Wheres my December 24th fam at? 🙌🙌
Great video, but as a historian, I highly doubt the '9 month gestation' theory, because the normal lay man would not have come up with this explanations and like you said yourself, the clergy didn't had that much authority in those days.
It is far more likely that this theory was an example of scolars redconing facts to justify an already established tradition of celebrating the nativity on the same date as a pagan feast.
The fact that christmas has so many pagan elements in its celebrations should be a clear case in point for that.
Besides, your entire point about the calander difference comes down to a switch in calander systems: from Julian to Gregorian.
God has shown me this.
Thanks be to God.
Read Leviticus chapter 12. Read Numbers chapter 6.
Read 1 Samuel 1!
Read Luke chapter 2!
8 days after the children are circumcised and presented to Lord.
Numbers 6 said when they failed to be holy basically then bring two turtles or pigeons. The vow points to that holy man child to paraphrase. See Samuel.
This points to arrival of Jesus Christ. See Luke chapter 2. Notice old days are lost to paraphrase. What happens in 8 days counting Dec. 25th.
The last year is lost those days are lost and all things new. The measure of time is from Jesus Christ birth. The year of our Lord Jesus Christ 2018.
8 days after the days before are lost.
It is Dec. 25th.
I don't believe in coincidence! I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ!
Why would the bishops, apostles, and Jewish priests be considered laymen to you?
For a "great video" he got the calendar all mixed up. Very poor. Most unimpressed.
In fact, you can see this dating of birth and conception dates with other major historical figures such a Cyrus the Great. It is not a practice that came into being with Jesus.
It has nothing to do with the Julian and Gregorian Calendars.... the Gregorian Calendar dates to the 1500's.
Isaac Asimove seemed to think that both the Eastern and Western Chrismass was based on the Winter Solstice but drifted due to bad calander management. He said that he had two birthdays because he was born in Russia before they switched to the modern calender.
Since Easter and All Saints Day ( Halloween) are apparently based on the Spring and Fall Equinoxes, it's easy to believe that Christmass was also based on the Solstice.
I wonder sometimes if the Fourth of July might be based on the Summer Solstice, just so we got all four.
Then why do Armenians celebrate on January 6th? The Solstice/pagan theory doesn't really explain that, which has nothing to do with calendars because it predates the Gregorian calendar by a lot
You also forget that Mithras was celebrated on Dec. 25.
Mithras IS Sol Invictus @3:05
Except he wasn’t and no ancient source says he was. This was made up in the 19th century
Jesus began his ministry at about 30 years of age. His ministry lasted about 3.5 years ending at his death in the month of Nisan corresponding to March/ April. Making his birth around mid October.
@Gregory Jones...
We must calculate everything according to the ancient documents.
Long before they started celebrating Sol Invictus, in 160 CE Mar Theophillus had celebrated Christmas on the 25th of the 9th month of Hebrew Calendar in Caesaria (De Origin Festorum Christianorum).
The Coptic Didascalia Apostolorum chapter XVIII also informed us that Pope Demetrius (Baba Demitri) in 189 CE Declared that the Church must celebrate Christmas on the 25th of the 9th month according to Hebrew Calendar or the 29th of the 4th month of Coptic Calendar.
Later Pope Julius I converted the date into Gregorian calendar becoming 25th Dec, while the eastern Churches maintains their calculation into julian calender on 7th Jan...
Pope Julius I, decided that date after he received the information from Anba Yoanis of Nicea, that the date calculation was taken from the writing of Flavius Josephus, The Jewis War, 4th book, chapter 4 verse 1-5. When Titus burned down the Temple of God in Jerusalem, it was on 9th of month Lous. And this writing is in accordance with Talmud and Megillat Ta'anit 4.29a (dated 160 CE). That is why until now Jewish people fast on the 9th of Av.
Megillat Ta'anit 29a not only informed us the date, but also the group of high priest who burned the incense in the Temple, Johejarib, the first among the 24th group mentioned in I Chro 23:7-19... From thia information we can easily check when Zeccariah who came from the group of Abia was in charge for incense burning. It turned that Gabriel met Zeccariah during the celebration of Yom Kippur on the second week of Tizri 75 years before the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus. and this information is in accordance with an ancient document Protevangelion Lakobi (170CE).
Luk 1:26, Gabriel came to see Marry 6 months afterward, so it was on the month of Adar Tseni (Nisan) and it was on March if we calculate the date under Gregorian Calendar. That's why the celebration of Christmas is to be in Dec, 9 months after Gabriel met Marry. That was how the early Church especially the Coptic Church calculated the date for Christmas to be on the 25th of Kislev or 29th of Khyak.
If you need further information, we welcome you to Indonesia and we will arrange a discussion with Dr. Bambang Noersena.
hello. nice video as always! could you perhaps do a video about the astrology aspects (winter solstice) and its relation with the 25th december?
It was to incorporate the festivals of other religions into their own to help with conversion into Christianity. Like the Norse Yule and the Roman Saturnalia or the winter solstice.
/sarcasm font/ Yep, that's what all those early documents written by Christian bishops said.
Here in 🇳🇴 it is the 24.
Sweden and Denmark too
Informative as always. I like your wall art by the window
The shepherds couldn't have been in the fields December 25th or January 6th. They don't agree with scripture
Joshua Bader Maybe they could! What're the sheep gonna do during the winter? Stand in one spot? Haha they probably still needed to graze and such
UnratedAwesomeness In the winter, they're kept in pens or even barns, to keep them warm. In the spring, the shepherds take them up to freshly sprouting fields in high hills and mountains to fatten them up. (think of Heidi)
Westerners think of Judea as a hot desert with palm trees - but in the winter, there is often snow in the highlands like Bethlehem & Jerusalem - and the shepherds would have taken their sheep even higher up mountains.
And why up mountains? You don't want the sheep eating the spouting crops in the lower, more fertile and easier to farm areas where you live.
This is incorrect, shepherds from ancient times to this day are in their fields with their sheep during winter. Sheep are also specially made for cold climates, hence the wool.
Zirious23 December is also Tamuz birthday
The scripture doesn't give a date or even year.
I was Baptized in 1968, I was 12yo. I was taught that Dec. 25th was arrived at from 9 months after Christ had risen to be Born Again. I know, the math doesn't quite add up but back then, they had a different calendar. It only matters that we celebrate his birth, not so much the actual day.
Are you forgetting that they had not agreed on Christ being a divinity until the Council of Nicea in 325 AD. So celebrating his birth wasnt a common practice until then. Please address this!
Council of Nicea did not establish jesus's divinity, just the exact nature of his divinity
Sean Jackmond
Christ divinity was established by AD 35
St. Gregory Thaumaturgus ("Wonderworker") in the 3rd century was already promoting celebrations of Christmas that would compare favorably with the prominent pagan festivities that were observed that time of year. Also, Priest Arius' teaching that Christ was a created being and only God in a metaphorical or lesser sense was controversial because the opposite belief was already widely held. For example, Origen in the 3rd century (in Alexandria, the same city where Fr. Arius later served as a priest) clearly taught that the Logos was co-eternal with the Father. Earlier that century, the Sabellians in North Africa believed so strongly in the Son's deity that they eliminated any real distinction between the hypostases. Confusing the hypostases (personae in Latin) was rejected as a heresy, but the Son's co-equal deity was not widely questioned until Arius in the 4th century. The word Trinitas is documented in the late second century, and may have been in use earlier than its first surviving attestation. The doctrine of Arius is connected with the popularity of Neo-platonism. Neoplatonism held that spirit was good and matter was bad, so the thought that God, who is spirit, has become incarnate in a material body struck many people in Hellenistic culture as unseemly. Thus, the Corinthians in St. Paul's day wanted to spiritualize the resurrected body, the gnostics invented various heresies that sharply distinguished the pure world of spirit from the tainted world of matter, and Arius reduced the incarnate Logos to a lesser, created being.
From what I've read in the esoteric community, it seems the belief about the March 25th conception/crucifixion centers around a 33-year cycle that his life was supposedly aligned with precisely. This is reportedly connected with the number's significance in Freemasonry. In some sense, every year of Christ's life was taken as a degree in the process of Initiation, though the explicit metaphors in the ceremonies follow a different allegory featuring a character named Hiram Abiff. I'd love to hear what you have to say about the connection between early Christianity and the Hermetic Tradition.
0:21 Um, what? Luke *explicitly* says that Jesus was born 9 years after the death of Herod
@TheLostAge I fail to see your point. ReligionForBreakfast asserts that the gospels agree upon Jesus' birth and that he was born under Herod the great, which is blatantly false.
@@BurnBird1 He wasn't born under Herod. He never existed. No historical evidence he walked the earth let alone on water.
@@johnlux6635 I mean, there is the fact that he ended up having thousands of followers, plus, we have primary sources telling us of people who met Jesus themselves.
@@BurnBird1 What primary sources? You should have led with them instead of the non sources you listed. Zeus had thousands of followers, do you believe in him as well?
@@johnlux6635 Paul is a primary source, since we have his direct words regarding people who met Jesus. Zeus doesn't exist since for one, he's a god, secondly, he is not reported to have existed within a specific time or place, like Jesus was. Just give it up. I get that you've watched a few Richard Carrier videos and that you feel super intelligent for having done so, but that dude's a hack and no serious historians really dismiss the existence of a guy named Jesus running around preaching in Roman Palestine.
The Jewish calendar adds leap year days called Adar 2: "The long journey leading to the addition of the Leap Day (added on February 29 every four years, but not on the century years, but actually yes on century years if they are divisible by 400) began with Julius Caesar’s introduction of the Julian calendar in 46 BCE, after his sojourn in Egypt showed him that the previous calendar was no longer working. "
There are reverse 40 week gestation calendars online but I haven't found one yet that goes back to dates 4BC - 2BC on the Jewish calendar.
But anyway, the "6th month" of Adar falls within specifications for a late December delivery.
Except the were coming up with his birth and life as there isn't much evidence of dates even if he existed at all. Second they are both on the soltice.....
Histtoria Civilis did a good job in his video covering Saturnalia
Good information but you arrived at the wrong conclusion.
The 6th of January is just 12 days after the start of Saturnalia. You mentioned that these festivals went on for several days and that Saturnalia was a big one.
Celebrating the end of it on the 6th of January is a big reason why some celebrate Jesus' birth on that date.
But others have mentioned the case of the 2 calendars which also makes sense.
In any case, the answer is: Yes, Christmas is basically a reformulated pagan celebration.
January 6th on the old Armenian Calendar used to be Dec 25th on the Julian Calendar. When the Armenians adopted the Julian Calendar they simply shifted their celebrations to the new January 6th.
The celebration of Christmas has nothing to do with the birth of Jesus Christ or any religion. The winter solstice occurs on December 21st. That's when the sun reaches its lowest point in the sky at noon. The sun then stays at that point for a few days and then starts to rise higher into the sky. This occurs on December 25th and our ancestors 1,000s of years ago celebrated the occasion of longer days and the return of warmer weather (rebirth of the land).
@Franz, the sun starts rising higher (remaining visible longer) the very next day. I remain unenlightened as to exactly what day Sol Invictus was celebrated (on the Solstice, which is logical, or on the 25th?), or what connection Saturn or the Saturnalia of December 25th had with Sol Invictus or the winter solstice.
Come June 21, the summer solstice, look up the time of sunset. You'll see that it remains fixed at the same time for a few days. The same happens at the winter solstice.
While they may not have been able to strictly enforce decrees in that time period the decrees could still have been a "standard" that eventually evolved into tradition still practiced today....
"A more robust theory has to account for regional differences"
--> goes to propose alternative theory that doesn't account for regional differences
I'm a little lost as to that argument...
Couldn't it just be multifactorial?
Is literally does though, it explains the differences between the West (25th of December) and the East (6th of January) on account of the different calculations they made on Jesus' birth. I agree, however, that a multifactorial explanation is possible.
Where does the Bible tell us to celebrate Christmas? It doesn’t GOD never gave us holidays he gave us true followers of Jesus holy days......blessings
All of y'all are wrong,
Dec 25th in the year 288ad is when santa first started his naughty list
Germans have half a day on December 24. (literally "holy evening" aka Christmas eve, whe get our presents that evening), 25. and 26. (literally "first and second Christmas day"). No idea why exactly it's two days.