Black Wednesday for the USAF (Or How Vietnam's Top Ace Almost Got Shot Down By Friendly Fire)
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 ต.ค. 2022
- After the defeat in Operation Bolo in January 1967, the North Vietnamese Air Force decided to change their tactics. They would now exploit the strong sides of their most advanced fighter, MiG-21 to the maximum. In August that year, the new approach would first be tried by a future six kill ace Nguyen Nhat Chieu and the future top ace of the entire War, Nguyen Van Coc. At one point, things almost ended up very badly for Van Coc but not because of enemy fighters.
Sources:
- Istvan Toperczer - MiG-21 Units of the Vietnam War
amzn.to/3CNS9OC
- Istvan Toperczer - MiG-21 Aces of the Vietnam War
amzn.to/3COaxH1
- Christopher Hobson - Vietnam Air Losses: USAF, Navy, and Marine Corps Fixed-Wing Aircraft Losses in SE Asia 1961-1973
amzn.to/3TifTBv
- Martin Bowman - The Men Who Flew the F-4 Phantom
amzn.to/3EY3X3A
- Peter E. Davies - F-105 Thunderchief MiG Killers of the Vietnam War
amzn.to/3EX8TW9
- Donald J. McCarthy Jr. - USAF F-4 and F-105 MiG Killers of the Vietnam War, 1965-1973
amzn.to/3EYxlqm
Special thanks to Walter for flying with me in this video!
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#militaryaviationhistory #mig21 #vietnamwar - เกม
Special thanks to NQD_ Tree for helping me with Vietnamese pronunciation. I'm not sure if it was any better than before but he certainly did his part 😁
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Damn. 5 USAF aircraft shot down in one day in SE Asia. North Vietnamese payback for Operation Bolo.
Yes, you could call it that way. It is comparable.
Superb as usual! I don’t think you should “apologize” for the proxies used in the videos. DCS is at it is right now and it’s wonderful how you re enact these little pieces of air warfare history. Thank you again for putting the effort to create this content
This way, if someone 'corrects' the video I can simply say 'you didn't listen, it's explained' That's a lot of fun😁 Thanks for commenting!
@@showtime112 I really don’t get how anyone feels entitled to “correct” you since you are putting a lot of effort and research and resources in making these awesome videos. The least they should do is thank you since you are providing high quality entertainment. Keep up the good work Showtime112!
@@davidfortezadelrey3181 People are assholes and need to feel like they know more than others, sadly. DCS is pretty limited in some aspects and its surprising its even possible to make something like this
The information was "too sensitive" for the guys going on the mission...brilliant.
Military 'intelligence' seems to be a completely wrong name for these guys 😁
@@showtime112 Oxymoron is definately applicable 🙃
This explained why they lost that war
Putting the special in special service
Phantom was a successful fighter jet with it's better RWR (Radar Warning Receiver) and weapon carrying capacity but Mig-21 was unmatched as it's speed and agility were beyond imagination.
Well done again. Thank you for another great history lesson.
Glad to hear it!
What you were definitely superior to the MIG-15 in was the amount of shit that you released when they appeared! It stank so much that even the Vietnamese were sick!
Great video and a refreshing change from the bias of the series "Dogfights."
Thanks! Dogfights probably had to consider their target audience as a TV show. I can actually aim wider.
Agreed. I like "Dogfights" but they're heavy on the "U-S-A!!!" and Americans never get shot down narrative.
Dang I was just talking with my friend about how it’s a shame there’s no movies about the air war in Vietnam. Brave dudes on both sides !
He said that the phantom and fishbed arnt pretty enough, but look how pretty 😍
Your friend has no idea what he is talking about 😁
@@showtime112 yea he’s wrong… Tom hardy makes a great robin olds 👍
There are dogfights videos on youtube on the history channel
@@orangejuicekitten8657yea but I want a real all encompassing cinematic experience that follows the American and Vietnamese pilots and their individual stories of combat action
@@Dogface1984Check it out...➡ th-cam.com/video/dpYfqI8uMKM/w-d-xo.html
The footage at 0:46 is gun-camera footage from an F-105 Thunderchief piloted by Major Kuster. He was awarded the Silver Star Medal for this action. My advice for you is to use the search engine in future...😉
brilliant as usual. i found it interesting that there were north korean pilots fighting for the vietnamese. a future video could chronicle the foreign pilots the flew for the arab forces against the israelis. i understand that there were vietnamese pilots flying for egypt and syria along with pakistani pilots flying for jordan. also iraqis flying syrian planes. and of course russians/soviets. any other eastern block pilots? thanks.
Thanks! If I find more details about North Koreans flying for the Vietnamese or foreign pilots flying for the Arab states, it might be a topic of a future video.
There 0 vietnamese fly for Egypt or Arab state , north Korean pilot come with they J6 aka mig 19 donation , Kim IL sung wanted they pilot and ground crew , air controler to get some experience , they the only combat foreign pilot in Vietnam side , there Soviet trainer but they don't fly combat mission in Vietnam war , the air defense specialist do tho , first few Sam 2 kill are done by the Soviet
Using stand-in aircrafts or not, your videos a extremely enjoyable and gives a good story telling about the military aviation events happened in the past. 😉
I'm glad you see it that way! Thanks!
The day after operation Bolo two other MIG 21 were shot down with the same strategy that Ods used. So in two days 7 migs MIG 21 were lost by the vietnamese roughly half part of the air fleet of this most modern military equipment that is the MIG 21. So, during the following six months no one MIG -21 was report in the air, no aerial attack in the Vietnam sky. That is extraordinary in this story is that intelligence army didn't report the new vietnamese tactics to the pilots of US Air Force for their protection and trying to find a counter measure with them. The american losses are important too in one day, like the video of the F-104 Starfighter in Vietnam that you have done before. it's a real revenge from the vietnamese. I ignore that, thank you for sharing this with us.
Thank you for commenting once again. It is true that Americans really weren't handling this war very well, the story with Olds and Intelligence is a good example.
@@showtime112 It's like the conception of the Phantom II, they have forgotten to add canons it's because they trust to much about the new technology of the missiles and radar of detection. Only 11% of the Sparrow used had reached their target during this conflict !!! Robin Ods shot down 4 MIGS during the beginning of this war at 44 years old !!! That's a prowess on supersonic jet. He taught to the new pilots of the US FORCE how to fight with combat maneuvers like the second world war where he shot down 12 enemy planes. It's the reason why U.S NAVY created TOP GUN on 1969.
@@showtime112 If one day the F4U Corsair arrives on DCS, have you got an interest for dealing with, if hou have heard about this conflict of july 1969, that we call the football war or the war of the 100 hours between Honduras and Salvador ? It's an original and no well konwn conflict too.
@@jeannezehner9450 Yes, I intend to cover that story too. There's a book which covers that story and I will research more once Corsair is released.
@@showtime112 Wonderfull news !!! The war exclusively between military airplane propeller on 1969, that is an interesting and an original subject to speak about.
your animation and historical content are superb - you are the best on you tube BY FAR! WELL DONE!
Thank you for this wonderful feedback!
@@showtime112 🙂 My Pleasure - as a student of history of love it when people get it right and you do every time! Your research and production efforts are breath taking ....well done! ~M
Apparently When Old’s witnessed the F-105 get behind the MiG-17 he screamed on the radio : Go get him Thud ! (If I remember it well from his book)
Yes, he was cheering for it over the radio.
After screaming, he changed his dippers and cry loud for his mom.
Another EXCELLENT video. Thanks very much for your dedication and hard work. You shouldn't worry too much if the model shown are not exactly the proper ones (F-4E for the F-4D, MiG-15 for the MiG-17, etc...) what counts it is the historical fact.
Take care and greetings from Mexico City.
Love that feedback! You are right that I shouldn't focus too much on some factors. But I just love to reply something like 'that's explained in the video and you didn't listen' :)
@@showtime112 OK, then mention this information but don't feel too bad If the model isn't the proper one.
Don't get discourged, you are doing a GREAT JOB ¡¡¡¡¡
Dave Waldrops bird was called the Hanoi Special. He scored a lucky gun kill as the MiG-17 crossed his nose and he squeezed off a shot-without a working gunsight.
Another great video....as usual !!
Glad you liked it!
Great stuff, as usual! 👍🏻👏🏻💪🏻
I'm happy for your success and hope it pays off. 😉😎🍻🍻🍻🍻
Thanks Pappa Bear for hanging around all this time!
Sad thing is the US military intelligence new the NVAF were changing tactics and it was only after 8/23/67 that the 555 TFS found out. Also, David Waldrop shot down 1 MIG-17 and probably shot down another.
You could say that the whole thing wasn't run the best way possible. Or anywhere near that.
Love ur content homie❤
I'm glad you do, thanks 😁
Showtime112 please keep these videos coming!
I sure will, don't worry! 😁
I'm not ususally very interested in Vietnam war stories but this one was very entertaining. Great video!
Thanks, I'm glad you appreciate it even though you are not necessarily the target audience!
This is why I like this channel; you'd never see this on American tv! 🤣
Well, everybody tends to focus on their country's victories. Historians who are only interested in what really happened are generally a minority.
@@showtime112 ' history is a collection of lies we all believe in.'
Another awesome video.
Glad you liked it!
Freaking awesome video!!!!
Talking about "Black Day" for USAF......."Black Tuesday" Korea, October 23 1951, MiG-15 Vs B-29, F-86 and F-84....was a massive battle, first class pilots and planes in both sides............is like a today battle with RuAF Su-35,against USAF F-22 and B-2!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Worth a video.
I've been wanting to do that one for a while. There's a B-29 mod which I used in one video. The problem is that you have to put them on 'ignore threat and don't shoot back' or else they will act very strangely and start climbing at 30 degrees AoA and at such speeds that MiG-15 can't even keep up 😁
Great video's 👍.
Thank you for the feedback!
Great video.
Thank you for commenting!
Interesting black cockpit... But it doesn't seem unlikely for some of the PF's to have it. The prior F-13 certainly had a black/grey interior. Also, interesting sidenote, Nguyen Nhat Chieu seems to have claimed an F-4 earlier in his career while flying a MiG-17.
I deliberately use the black cockpit to mask the fact that this is the Bis. Not sure to what extent it works. I hope that the MiG-17 development doesn't take too long, it will be interesting to have in DCS.
Fake North Vietnamese pilot MiGs we’re all flown by Soviet pilots.
Well done man.
It's nice to hear, thanks!
As usual... a superb «kick-ass» presentation... Robin Olds was quite a pilot... And quite the defiant Caracter... But a real warrior and no non-sence and BS common sens man!
Thanks a lot! I definitely need to do another video about him.
May I suggest that you view old episodes of a show called «Dogfight» in which he is featured... Graphics are definately not at the level of your outstanding quality... ☺ @@showtime112
Actually... I just discovered the WW2 story you made on him... th-cam.com/video/OV3ahThY8BU/w-d-xo.html
In December 1966 the MiG-21 pilots of the 921st FR downed 14 F-105s without any losses.The North Vietnamese Air Force (VPAF) had between 60 and 75 aircraft in service at most points during the war. Yet the MiG-17s, MiG-19s, and MiG-21s shot down 67 USAF aircraft,
and, most important, In total, the United States military lost in Vietnam almost 10,000 aircraft, helicopters and UAVs (3,744 planes,[3] 5,607 helicopters[2] and 578 UAVs.
A country of peasants, with an air force of only a few dozens, badly trained pilots, managed to inflict an enormous prejudice and humiliation on the USA, the most advanced nation at that time.
Proportional, we talk about a factor of almost 1 / 100 - a true disaster for the USA during the Vietnam War.
You forgot to mention that the Communist bloc supplied so many anti-aircraft weapons that the airspace of North Vietnam was better defended than the Soviet Union. And many of American losses were caused by stupid micromanagement by the political leadership, especially in the first phase of the war. So, it wasn't really that some poorly trained peasants defeated a superpower.
Are there any pilots among the kangaroos? )))))))
@@showtime112 THANKS YOU BECAUSE YOU TOOK THE WORDS OUT OF MY MOUTH! Sorry about the caps..lol
How ignorant, inaccurate a statement can you make? Guess you swallow Communist propaganda pretty well.
Great Stuff
Thanks for commenting!
This is Operation Bolo but on Vietnamese side
You could say something like that.
Showtime112 there was problem with F4 D Phantom ejection system, the backseat or weapon system operator would not eject independently, the system allows the pilot to eject first explain why two or three F4 D Phantoms weapon systems operators were lost in there planes.
That might very well have been the reason, thanks for providing details.
It's just that Western pilots cannot withstand frontal attacks because of cowardice! )))))))
O.o I need that cockpit skin, like it blacked out.
I saw some photos of Vietnamese MiG-21s in museums with black cockpits so I use them when I do these Vietnam scenarios. Especially the earlier ones.
Might 21 the best
Muy bueno y excelente el aclarar lo de F4E y no D y Mig 15 en vez de Mig17. 👍
Glad you think so. Approximations are necessary and many people think it's just me using wrong models because I'm stupid and ignorant 😁
What good is intel if you don't use it? I would be furious too. Great video. I didn't know there were any North Korean pilots in the Viet Nam War. It wasn't that long ago that we learned we were fighting Russians in the air war in Korea either.
Thanks! The intel thing is obviously one of the reasons why the war didn't go so well for the American side. The North Korean pilots are confirmed by Istvan Toperczer and he probably knows well.
The Americans had South Korean troops fighting for them. These were paid handsomely and South Koreans gladly volunteered for combat duty in Vietnam. There was also around 60,000 of Australian soldiers fighting in Vietnam, together with 3,000 New Zealanders.
Mig17 had only guns, but Mig21 had missiles. Thanks my brother, Russia.
Liên bang xô viết
Liên bang Nga.
What you were definitely superior to the MIG-15 in was the amount of shit that you released when they appeared! It stank so much that even the Vietnamese were sick!
I think you got your terms a bit mixed up, since I’m pretty sure USN SEAD missions were called Iron Hand while USAF SEAD missions were Wild Weasel.
I recently read the memoirs of a F-105 pilot, he flew around 1966-67 and in his book he called SEAD missions done by his squadron as Iron Hand aswell, not sure what timeframe it changed to Wild Weasel.
Iron Hand was the mission type and the term was used by USAF and Navy. Wild Weasel referred to aircraft types configured to carry out this mission.
Mais um video excelente com conteúdo histórico. Este é o meu canal favorito de aviação militar. Muito obrigado! Abraço de um brasileiro.
Muito obrigado! I do have a significant number of viewers in Brazil, I'm glad to hear it.
@@showtime112 thank you for you atencion.
I know the Mig21 is purchased, but how to mod or install the F4 and F-105s? Looking for something to replace my Wings Over Vietnam by thirdwire for future
You can download the F-105 mod here;: www.lockonforum.de/community/thread/8315-f-105-thunderchief/?s=bc45ff0824e33db8e4518c702651db2005c43797
It requires FC3 if you want to fly it. There should also be a flyable F-4 mod. There are also high-resolution skins for the AI Phantom (I used them in this video) downloadable here: www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/3320113/
Những chiếc máy bay chiến đấu cũ của Nga bị đánh giá thấp đã được các phi công Việt Nam sử dụng và tiêu diệt những chiếc máy bay chiến đấu của Mỹ được cho là tốt hơn rất nhiều 💪 🇻🇳❤🇷🇺
How the heck were they able to sneak behind the phantoms like that? Wouldn't the F4s RIO picked them up on radar?
Radars can't look backwards so, no. Most air kills in history are achieved by surprise.
Half of all pilots thorough the entire air warfare history didn't know who shot them down.
There's another video where the pilots got a warning from a Carrier, but the vietnamese pilots were already too close
The Viets didn't use their own Mig radar, cause they were Directed by GCI, and they were equipped with IR Guided missiles, so they Sereny visible on Phantoms RWR.
For info.
F4D 66-0238. Taylor was POW and Sittner found by villagers hanging in trees by parachute.. .may bé Badly or deadly injured during éjection ?
F4D 66-0247. Carrigan POW .Lane held in another POW camp. But never released in 1973.
F4D 65-0726. Hit by intense AAA fire.???above Gia Lam airfield Hanoï. As i Can read on Chris Hobson 's Vietnam air losses
Thanks for ading info!
@@showtime112 just coming Back from chestnut. ....harvest . Good for jam and pancake
Could you do a pretend scenario: Greece vs Soviet Union. Btw I like your videos. Keep going!
For now, I don't plan to do fictional scenarios but someday, it might change. Thanks for the comment!
Happy Diwali.
wow . . wow . . wow . . wow . . wow . . .
That's a good wow, I hope 😁
@@showtime112 . . This Wow was from the depth of my heart ❤️💓❤️💓❤️💓 . . .
Excellent presentation from the Vietnamese point of view of the air war in Vietnam. Robinson Olds didn't play around he was a serious air warrior. 🎩🎱♠️🎯🇺🇲🏁🔱🇺🇦🌻💮🌸🌼👊🏴☠️🏹
🤦♂️
Thanks. Initial response to the video is more than good.
Olds later devised an ambush plan for what few MiG 21's were on hand at the time by disguising the Phantoms' callsigns and electronic signatures.
Those USAF aircraft appear to have no unit codes on the tail.
Creating and modifying skins in flight simulations is quite complicated. Just getting every detail correct would prolong the production of videos very significantly and few people would appreciate the effort.
no Li Si Tsin ?
how can I became ace pilot is it gifted or hardwork or sheer luck
Skill is necessary but also a lot of luck. A lot has to do with being in the right place at the right time.
@@showtime112 do you think can we master that skill is it possible
@@mrahulkeya8142 Lots of thing are possible but becoming an ace today (which means shooting down five enemy aircraft) is extremely unlikely for the simple lack of opportunity. We'll see if the current war in Ukraine produces one.
So where was Robin Olds when the 3 F4’s were being shot down?
Not in the proper place. These two shootdowns happened so fast that the escorts would have had to be positioned correctly to prevent them. And Olds was expecting older tactics from the VPAF and that's why he was so furious with the intelligence.
I remember this war american marmy was retreat in vietnam by defeat
I'll bet they were Vietnamese pilots and not Russian.
It seems that Ho Chi Minh never allowed any Russians to fly. But those two definitely don't sound Russian; I agree 😁
Russians were only present as training advisors in the MiG-21UM two seater.
@@SelfRaisingWheat That's basically the info that I came across too.
Nowadays, Drones are more preferred than fighter jets
Can you make some content on drone dogfights😂
I did one video about drones. It was ignored by most😁
Sparrows man….
Vietnam top ace was Vietnamese. His name is Nguyen Van Coc. US lost over 1000 aircraft there.
Gooker knew it was a D model F-4. Yeah Roger ok
D model is not available
Over 260,000 views .!!! Primetime Showtime 112.
Thanks!
Unmanned drones in 1967?
Yes, much less sophisticated than today. Google 'Ryan Firebee'
❤️
Hvala, T!
F4 coolest looking jets
I could agree with that
@@showtime112 The looked like a combat plane.
The "Real Story" is how many Cuban, Chinese and Russian Instructors were flying the Migs. Some of them were too good be true❤️
Officially, none. But in near future there will be a video based on direct testimonies of participants auggesting otherwise.
I see USA insignia on the mig21s
Nope, that's People's Vietnamese Air Force. They are just similar.
What was usa doing in Vietnam
Trying to prevent communist from taking over South Vietnam. Essentially.
Black war for USA the history approved how strong are the agrestion forces the nation who defend their country will win at the end lesson to learn. Vietnam Afghanistan Somalia people defeat strongest army of the time
In thet time was not MiG-21bis
True
Didn't the americans have flares/chaffs?
The Phantoms didn't realize they were under attack so it wouldn't have helped anyway.
@@showtime112 they didn't have a warning sound for being locked on and for incoming missiles?
@@flip849 There's no warning for an IR homing missile and those don't even require a radar lock. Anyway, RWRs were in their infancy in 1967.
Vietnamese people have a lot of utensils made from the wreckage of American planes.
Năm 1967, Việt Nam đang sử dụng máy bay míc21 f94 lấy đâu ra 4 giá treo ở cánh, chỉ có máy bay míc21 bis mới có 4 giá treo ở cánh. Một người làm video ko biết về mic21
Well, maybe the video maker can't just select any of all those variants but he only has this one? And the video couldn't otherwise be made?
You think pilots would eject so quickly it's instantaneous punch out. Crew would take s one time to evaluate damage POW in north Vietnam from frying pan into the fire. From australia 🇦🇺
AI aircrew can evaluate the damage much more quickly 😁 I guess that's another thing ED can improve in the AI behavior.
You can eject ONLY if you are not hit, wounded - AND the ejection system is still working.
Lol.
Zrada :(
Míc 21 có 3 thế hệ f94, f96 và bis. Mỗi loại máy bay nhìn bên ngoài cũng có thể phân biệt được. Ở cánh có 4 giá treo là bis, sau năm 1975 Việt Nam mới có
Also, the video maker very clearly explained that specific variants of these airplanes are not available but the viewer wasn't listening.
Why Black Wednesday Why not White Wednesday 😁
In Western culture, color black is often associated with death and funerals. So, a day on which a tragic event takes place is sometimes given the attribute 'black'. If that's what you are asking and not something else.
আমেরিকার প্লেন যত ধ্বংস হয় ততই ভালো সে বাস্তবে হোক বা ভিডিও গেম এ।
At the end USA lost the war. that is the real fact.
Not what this chanel focuses on
Hey TH-cam commando, did South Vietnam fall while American troops were there?
cant differentiate the story line and the action ..... script too slow ....monotonous vadio
Try watching less Tik Tok 😁
ahhh good old trash thunder and its 1990's terrible graphics lol.
This is not War Thunder and you've apparently never seen what 90s graphics looked like.