Super Magnesium bikes from VAAST. If you haven't heard about them, check them out. They will blow you away. Ride as comfortable as steel, as stiff as aluminum, almost as light as carbon and more compliant than titanium. Oh, and they're extremely affordable and are literally the strongest materials on the market (yes...even stronger than steel).
If I had to summarize your channel in one word, it'd be "tasteful". And I believe that's coming through in your videos and that's why all these wonderful bikes end up in your corner ... for us to marvel at as we're watching. There's nothing wrong with the run-of-the-mill carbon bike, but goodness me! ... the Darkstar as well as the Blackheart are visual Primadonnas and exceptionally beautiful. Your Bianchi may be in its own league, but all three hearken back to a very special kind of elegance or design, and it takes one with an appreciation of that elegance to feature such jewels in his videos. Many thanks for your efforts! PS: really like the groups of your group-rides. A lot of different rider types but they all seem to be quite fit - kudos to them too.
Great video as usual. I have both, steel and Ti and I have ridden many of each. They are both excellent choices, better than aluminium (unless you are on a tight budget) and better than carbon in every way that actually matters. However, for me Titanium (if you can afford it) just has the edge. It has basically all the best characteristics of steel, with a weight advantage, lower maintenance (because no rust and no paint) and a look that never ages. Nothing is perfect, but a good titanium bike comes very close.
@reginaldscot165 Hi Reginald and thanks for weighing in. A good friend is prepping for a forever bike and really has his eye on the Litespeed Specia. I know you are partial to the T1... but the conversation reminded me of you and your bike.👍🏾
Recently bought a Ritchey road logic rim brake. After 13 years on a stiff aluminum bike. I owned a Pinella in 1999...great bike...crashed it and when I went to re-order a new one the distributor offered me the ti frame for $300 more so I bought that and raced it for 11 years....50K miles on both of those. People who say there is no difference in ride quality between frame materials have no idea. For my 3 hour training rides my avg speed, elapsed time and power #'s are the same on the Ritchey. I'm older now...on the aluminum frame I felt every crack in the road and found myself riding the hoods because my back was chirping. On the Ritchey I can stay in the drops all day and not feel beat up. The weight penalty is about 3/4 of a pound. I bought a light cassette and switched to those tubalito lightweight inner tubes and I'm very close to the aluminum bike now.
Luis, love your videos and appreciate the time and the effort you put into them. In my mind this video is more about bike choice over bike composition. I say this because without the bikes being exact in geometry or at least extremely close in geometry, I don't see how this would be a comparison. Maybe they are close and I missed that. Please keep producing these videos. Much appreciated. Thanks
I was reminded yesterday just how much subjective feel can be a distraction to actual performance. I took my heavy steel bike on a hill ride, complete with 50mm tires, and a long slack geometry. At one descent we rarely break 30. It felt like I was doing at most 20, but sure enough I was already hitting 28 and gaining, despite being overdue for a rest day. I had to do a double take at the bike computer. Twitchiness, road buzz, and overall comfort can completely overwhelm what you think is finely tuned perception of speed, acceleration, and other performance metrics. Wheels the "spin up fast" is another giant red flag in any review, as it is not like the wheels are decoupled from the speed of the bike, and the small weight difference only costs ~2x the meager difference. The cycling industry is long overdue for standardized testing of things like vertical and lateral stiffness, high speed stability, low speed turning radius, and so much more. End rant.
@@bikeman123 OK. Can you quantify? Does going carbon make acceleration improve 1%, 10%, 25%? If the difference is so dramatic it should be easy for someone to quantify it, and yet it is all touchy feely opinions. I have two wheelsets for my gravel bike, upgrading to 50mm carbon rims for road tires. Honestly I really could not tell a noticeable difference.
I’m in the Titanium club (Seven Axiom), Steel club (old Bridgestone RB-1 racer is still amazing), and Carbon club (Emonda SLR). All are amazing. Depends on my mood and the ride for the day. If I had to pick ONE and only one, would probably be the Titanium. Comfort but still very agile and responsive. And super easy to maintain. I just completely overhauled, and all it takes is 15 minutes with a pad and the frame brushes back to like new finish. The Emonda SLR is a weapon. Unfortunately, I am not, but it is stiff, light and fast. All materials are good.
Luis, Ti. Built the whole thing myself. Chinese frame and fork, Shimano R7000 groupset. I'm 70, started riding 5 years ago. Addicted to the ride! Not that fast but I get there eventually. Like your videos, keep up the good work.
Great video! In terms of alternatives to carbon, it would be interesting to put magnesium in the mix. I bypassed carbon and to join my mid-90s steel Bianchi, added a Vaast magnesium and I am enjoying the feel thus far.
I have never put that much thought into cornering characteristics. My commuter and touring bikes do corner differently, and at times when I transition it takes 30 seconds or so to adjust. But it's all flow and balance. I don't think about it. Kudos to you for being able to put that experience into words and actual physical motions of your body. I'm just putting a lot of money and effort into installing dynamo lighting with internal cabling on my steel-framed touring bike. But if that doesn't work out, the option I'm looking at is titanium. I've never ridden one, and the cost is quite the step up.
Great comparison, I personally love stainless steel myself but can't afford to get a frame built for me. If you have access to one, I'd love to see a comparison to the titanium bike! Also do you know of any frame builders or companies who use scandium tubing? I used to play lacrosse and had a scandium stick and I loved it. I'd figure it would give similar characteristics to titanium with a little more compliance, but I have never seen one on the streets. Thanks again and enjoy your day!
THANK YOU a very complete evaluation not one thing left out im on the shelf as im sure you will understand Luis thank you for a greater understanding of frame materials and how they ride be Blessed.
Great video! Have never ridden a Ti bike but am generally a bit skeptical because the tubes are often plain gauge. But Reynolds and Columbus actually do both sell double-butted Ti tubes. Have never seen or heard of a bike that used them though!
In the UK we have the Mason Resolution (steel) - Definition (aluminium) or the Fairlight Strael (steel) road bikes. Modern standards, plus ability to fit mudguards - fenders, it rains a lot in the UK, these all run on hunt bike wheels. These bikes would be my choice.
My one performance bike has been my fully carbon Open Up gravel bike. Everything else has been aluminum and steel. And by far the material that has proved to be the most compliant and comfortable has been steel. Having said that, my current carbon bike is pretty compliant because it’s built to be compliant in all the right places. However, given what you stated in your review I would go for the black heart titanium bike too. I want speed AND comfort
Luis, you inspired me to buy a Ti frame after watching your review. Well, sort of… I bought a Ti/carbon Sampson Exalt. I love the look and so far on my quick shake down ride it seems stable, responsive and accelerates well.
As per usual, great review!! It's almost an unfair comparison because of geometries and construction methods. I'm thinking it would be great to compare the same bike...one in steel and one in Ti (not an easy task, I know lol). That way, material, tubesets, butting profiles, etc. could be compared. Thoughts? Also, the aesthetic comparison is unfair. I'm going to choose a raw metal almost every time. A simple white bike with black logos is going to lose to raw Ti...again...in my eyes. Now...raw steel showing the brazing and logos under a tinted clear...now we have a problem. Lol Again, Luis, love what you're doing and your channel!
Good video.. i havent ever ridden TI.. however, six months ago i put together a stelbel sb/04.. the new steel tubes are amazing in almost all the aspects compared to my carbon bikes, except on weight.. there still a material difference (vis a vis - disc brakes), that for a long climbing day is noticeable.. but, the Stelbel worked excellent in the GF Ocean to Ocean here in Panama.. i paired with enve 3.4 at 55 psi to smooth out the rough sections of tarmac. If there would have been more climbing, probably i would have gone for carbon. regards..
Hi Luis - greetings from Ireland. I have two wonderful bikes; a titanium Merlin Magia (made in the USA) and a steel Tommasini Tecno (fatto in Italia). The Merlin is light, fast and climbs like a rocket. It's also twitchy and has a scary speed wobble on descents. The Tommasini is heavy, slow to accelerate and climbs like a bucket of cement. It's also incredibly comfortable and, once you get up to speed, eats up the miles like a BMW Gran Turismo. They both look amazing - classy brushed titanium versus flashy Italian steel. Which do I prefer? Well, there is one huge external factor that tips the balance. I'm 66 years old and my carcass ain't what it used to be. I'll take comfort over speed any day - the Tommasini takes top step on the podium!
I'm in both camps. But, I just picked up a mid-1980s Trek 4 00 with tangy prestige tubing. Really high quality. Rides great. I used to race Eddie merckx Columbus SLX for 8 years so I know the difference between a poor quality steel bike and a good steel bike. Paid a hundred bucks for this TREK and it rides great. 8-Speed ultegra in great condition. I'm not going to national championships anymore, so I really don't need a race bike but my theory has always been that if you love your bike then you will ride more miles. And I am very impressed with this bike. I almost bought a litespeed ultimate on Craigslist last week which is really my dream bike. But I think I'll be happy with this $100 Trek
Some surprising findings! I was expecting the DS to be more agile because of the stiff Winspace rim brake wheels, and the extra weight of the disk rotors on the BH road Ti. Very good discussion because how you feel is more important than what happens in a lab setup. I think part of the difference may also be due to your more aggressive positioning on the Blackheart, which seems to put your hips closer to the BB. I'd like to have a custom gravel/ travel Ti bike where I use high volume 650B for gravel, and 28mm 700C for road, with relatively short chainstays (around 415) and a Pegoretti style geometry. Not a fan of the long TT, short stem geometry that we see on many gravel bikes today.
Dang to be honest both look soo good. I lean towards the dark star because of the look of a horizontal top tube I love that which most vintage steel road bikes have. However, it’s splitting hairs at this point because both are rad!
Luis, the feeling you mentioned when cornering is pretty much standard feature on all disc bikes. The fork is stiffer to be able to withstand the disc braking and therefore the bike feels less nimble when cornering.
I've never ridden Ti, though I'm definitely curious. My regular road bike is an Orbea Spirit (Columbus Spirit) and if it had slightly more tire clearance, it would be the perfect road bike. Probably very similar to your Bianchi. The skinny tire era has left us with a lot of amazing frames that just can't adapt to what we now know about tire width. Great content, as always. Thanks!
Luis, while I love your videos, I really have to say that this was not a fair comparison. To be a truly fair comparison both bikes would have to be built to the same specifications by the same builder. There are so many variables in a frame that can make subtle differences to how the bikes feel. Some of those variables are seat tube angle, head tube angle, BB drop, seat stay length etc. There are a few builders out there that can build in both Ti and Steel. Also the bikes do not have the same component specs. All of this can make a difference in overall ride feel as well as the subtleties of the ride. That said, overall it was a great comparison and I am glad that someone is willing to tackle this topic.
Hi George, thanks for watching. I am actually going to address this whole theme in a future video. I wasn't going for a like for like comparison... or fairness for that matter. I assume that a builder will build a frame to the best characteristics of the material by manipulating tube shapes and geometry... and we get what we get. So that plays into it. But overall, these bikes are not far off from each other. I appreciate your input.
I think I prefer Titanium mainly because I would enjoy the stiffness and the comfort of riding on a variety of roads. Steel from what I know transmits everything from the road making endurance rides not so enjoyable. I still prefer Carbon if my choice. Keep producing great content.
Steel is just the opposite. It is smooth, and kills high frequency vibration. If you can imagine what it feels to hold an electric razor in your hand, there's none of that with a steel frame coming through the bars and saddle. There is moreover some energy return when you dance on the pedals. Not as stiff as a race carbon, but a smooth ride, like a big BMW.
First bike was steel reynolds 531,next alumium ,now two bikes i have are carbon and steel.Steel is hard to beat ,never have titanium bike.I guess the later is stronger,but expensive to fix if it is damaged during ride.Thanks for clip.
Lovely video as always. I share a lot of your thoughts. I currently favour my titanium frame over my steel one but honestly this is mainly down to esthetics as in a blind test i would not bet money on being able to differentiate them. 🫣
Very good and interesting video. However one thing to note is that not all titanium tubings are created equal. In 1992/1993, Bianchi used Columbus Hyperion Titanium tubing which was later used by some brands. At that era Ancotech, Sandvik and Reynolds were the main competitors of Columbus. Reynolds was widely used by Moots, Lynskey, Merlin, Litespeed and probably Independant Fabrication. Dedacciai titanium tubings appeared latetly in the 2000"s with K Class grade 9 butted with the second highest score of strenght of 123-134KSI behind the Reynolds 3/2,5 Butted with a score of strenght of 117-139KSI. Columbus Spirit offers a higher strenght than titanium with a score of 177-205KSI. Another thing to take in consideration is that a rim brake bike is lighter than a disc brake bike and less finicky to service. Rim brakes are lighter, stiffer and faster than disc brakes, braking requires skill. Plus changing a spoke or a disc brake pad on a disc wheel is a headache, that is why I don't have a single road disc brake bike nor a single road disc bike project in my stable. Another thing that struck me is why is the pivot steerer cut so low and the seat post too high ? I had an accident with my back two years ago but have also seen people complaining of back aches due to a steerer cut too short and seat post mounted too high. As for tires , yes tire technology elvolved but be careful of tubless road tires. I have always had slime anti puncture tubes put in my road bike wheels. I steel ride on 700* 23 and 700*25. I have tried a friend's Passoni , a very high end italian titanium brand that makes their own tubing but there is one thing I remarked , Titanium is softer than steel and in quick pedaling relaunches, titanium doesn't feel as rigid.I have observed that when ridding back then my friend's GT edge in titanium One of my road bike projects that I told you about , the 1998 Vetta Team made of dedacciai DR Zero Uno with its original steel fork is going to be finalized in september, I just need to source a pair of look pp396 yellow pedals. The weight of the bike is 9,3kilos not bad. Also bought another Dedacciai 18MCDV6HT steel frame from 1994, a Basso Viper, so loads of bike projects in the pipe.
I´m not in anyones camp when it comes to framematerials. A good bike is a good bike no matter what the material is. And you can find titanium frames that feels like a steel frame and steel frames that feel like titanium frames. It depends on to many varabiles to say that it is the material. The framebuilder, the geometry, the type of titanium, steel or whatever material you use. And the thickness and how the tubes are shaped inside and outside. I currently have a modern carbon frame and a 14 year old aluminium frame. I love them both. My next bike will probably be a steel frame. I love the Standert Pfafinder and the Condor Super Acciaio. They feel so fast and comfortable. I also like the Cinelli Nemo Tig, but that feels very similar to a carbon frame. Nice video though.
Both are great bikes, but that Pinella looks sweet. I have an old aluminium Colnago and a slightly younger aluminium Bianchi. Looking to have either a high end steel (maybe XCr) or titanium. Your thoughts help.
Your emotional attachment to the Pinella is similar to my attachment to old school Cannondales. I have an Aethos and CAAD13, yet I am in the market for an old school CAAD or Rxxx. I test rode an R600 the other day and I was struck by the immediacy and directness of the handling and power transfer - it seems like all the new bikes have been tuned for comfort, which seems to have taken away from the sharpness of the bike. Which makes me really question what I should do with my current bikes. I only got the CAAD13 b/c my CAAD9 was stolen. Then I got the Aethos b/c the 13 didn’t quite have the sharpness of the 9. The Aethos is awesome, almost like a CAAD9 on steroids, but it has somewhat of a muted feel, I believe b/c the carbon is tuned for comfort. So I wonder if the best move is to pick up another CAAD9, which was my quiver of one for over 10 years, and sell the other bikes. I wonder, if you so clearly like the Pinella so much, why you have all the other bikes?
Interesting video and thoughts, thanks. Some other things to consider on the "feel" of each of those bikes when comparing steel vs.Ti materials. The tube diameters and wall thickness of each tube will effect how it rides and feels whether it is steel or titanium. I've owned steel bikes back in the 1980's, including today, along with all the other tube materials. My current head scratching includes a very nice Ti hardtail mtn bike with Rockshox and Industry Nine wheels that I own; I also have a modern full rigid, drop bar, steel frame mountain bike with steel fork (a rare creature, small batch, tubes selected by frame size). No kidding, when the suspension fork is locked out my Ti mtn bike, it is way stiffer than the rigid steel bike that has a shorter wheelbase. But the steel bike is way faster. I think the art of frame design and material choice lies in that murky area of experience, and what the designer was going for regarding feel and purpose. Happy trails. ☮
Unfortunately I've only ever ridden cheap cheap steel bikes. Carbon has been my favourite material, but have just invested in a custom Ti frame. Looks great, haven't quite finished the build though.
Really enjoying this video. Do you think the handling performance you prefer in the steel bike is down to material or geometry ? I have a titanium Moots VaMoots 2012 road bike and I would say it handles like the steel bike you mentioned, but is comfortable like your ti bike. Although , with enough miles on a bike a person adapts to most handling types I suppose ?
I’m not in any particular frame material camp, but I’ve never ridden carbon or titanium. The 1991 Basso Paris-Roubaix I had really beat me up it was so non-compliant. But I was using 23c tires and an alloy seat post, and back then I didn’t know how much of a difference those things make. The 2017 BMC TeamMachine ALR01 is downright plush in comparison. But now I want a custom-made frame - a “forever” bike. With my budget, I could go for a Waltly titanium frame from China, or some local frame builder (NY State / East Coast area) who could use Spirit or/and 853. I don’t race and I don’t train with a watt meter or Strava or any of that. I just ride hard for fun. Anybody got advice / opinions?
Hi Tom. Thanks for watching. A name that consistently comes up for custom is Marinoni. I have no experience with them, so please do your research. There is also lots of videos by people who have used Walty. Best of luck to you!
My Ti bike makes my 1970's era Peugeot feel flimsy. For me Ti is very stiff, far stiffer than carbon. The first thing I noticed on my Ti bike was how much crisper the shifts were, no flex at all in the derailleur hanger. My Ti forks did not have as much rake as my steel bike, making it much twitchier. For me the Ti bike feels much more predictable in its handling characteristics, I am really enjoying the bike. I like to change bikes about every 50 years, I wanted something lighter than steel but nearly as strong, and last the rest of my life.
It all depends on the particular bike. A bike is more than the material. I have ridden road bikes for 37 years and have owned and ridden a ton of bikes and there are steel bikes I loved and other I hated. Same with titanium.
Steel is more of a lightening rod to me. Where we climb 🏔️ it may rain or be sketchy weather come time. Started with steel GT Edge and ended up with the latest GT Edge titanium.
As a matter of fact I’m in both - simultaneously and full custom 😈 As for choice: the difference is in the detail, but my steel bikes do draw a bigger crowd. But then again the sexyness my 56” penny farthing makes both of your options look like wall-flowers 😋
I have titanium frame made as copy of geometry from Colnago V2R/3RS and it handles exaclty the same. Just 500 gram heavier. It is more comfortable than carbon and quiet in riding. Few other bikes made of steel, also very close geometry, some steel some carbon forks, they all feel just little less responsive but all more comfortable. Handling is almost the same, only steel forks give more confidence in very fast decending.
I've heard from frame builders that the fork has more to do with ride and handling than the frame does. Almost any modern performance bike will have a somewhat generic carbon fork regardless of frame material. I think it's sad that this seems to be a critical area that is overlooked (less than ideal turn-in and toe overlap for instance). That said my preference is vintage steel with a matching 1" steer tube fork. These older framesets commonly came in a dozen or more individual sizes each with a carefully built fork to match. Then again I like all vintage things, which is also why I like myself.
if you have a heavier tires or wheelset its going to naturally settle down at speed increases. conversely toss on an ultralight tireset and it will absolutely make the bike feel way more nimble and lighter at 40kph+
I prefer more authentic of steel bikes, so I own 3 of them. And ti bike an own only one. But all are great bikes, as well as aluminum or carbon bikes, that I currently doesn’t have. 🎉
I've had/have both titanium and steel. I prefer steel, especially my Reynolds 853 bike. It has air harden steel that is stiff but also compliant with a springyness that I enjoy. Titanium is nice but doesn't have that same feel. Titanium absorbs impacts well but not the return of energy that a high-quality steel bike does.
I'm in the ''the material that is best, most smartly applied rather than the material itself'' camp. so are you, so is anybody. comparing frame materials is a bit of a fool's errand, too many other relevant variables are always at play.
I’m in all camps lol I have a Ti disc bike, Reynolds 931 stainless and Columbus spirit steel rim campy bikes and a campy Supersix EVO rim brake bike.. all are awesome and have their own characters bit like family members 😊 🚴🏻👍Pete
Too many variables in 'ride feel' to call the frame responsible. Tire width matters, yes, but so does the actual tire, internal rim width, and tire pressure. And then wheel stiffness makes a difference, too. You absolutely have to isolate the frame by controlling those variables (the fork, seatpost, stem, and handlebars will also affect). Next time, ride both frames with the same wheels and tires at least. Good video, otherwise.
Steel is ALWAYS better than titanium. Last longer, more comfortable and much cheaper. The only thing titanium beats steel is in weight, but anybody willing to pay for a titanium frame can pay for a steel frame that will be almost as light and still have all the other benefits.
modern steel is martensitic , which is very stiff & trend to fail over time ( too thin & brittle ) Your ti road frame have no seatstay bridge, it exacerbate the noddlely of titanium rear end
It's refreshing that someone is talking about something else other than carbon.
Thank you for watching 👍🏾
Super Magnesium bikes from VAAST. If you haven't heard about them, check them out. They will blow you away. Ride as comfortable as steel, as stiff as aluminum, almost as light as carbon and more compliant than titanium.
Oh, and they're extremely affordable and are literally the strongest materials on the market (yes...even stronger than steel).
If I had to summarize your channel in one word, it'd be "tasteful". And I believe that's coming through in your videos and that's why all these wonderful bikes end up in your corner ... for us to marvel at as we're watching. There's nothing wrong with the run-of-the-mill carbon bike, but goodness me! ... the Darkstar as well as the Blackheart are visual Primadonnas and exceptionally beautiful. Your Bianchi may be in its own league, but all three hearken back to a very special kind of elegance or design, and it takes one with an appreciation of that elegance to feature such jewels in his videos. Many thanks for your efforts! PS: really like the groups of your group-rides. A lot of different rider types but they all seem to be quite fit - kudos to them too.
@@klcbsoft Wow! I really appreciate these kind words. Thank you sincerely🙏🏾
Luis actually got me very interested in steel, I am planning on purchasing a steel frame next year from a local manufacturer here in japan.
Are you referring to Kualis or svecluck? I have a svecluck mudman cx steel made in Kanagawa :) super nice custom built bike
Great video as usual. I have both, steel and Ti and I have ridden many of each.
They are both excellent choices, better than aluminium (unless you are on a tight budget) and better than carbon in every way that actually matters.
However, for me Titanium (if you can afford it) just has the edge. It has basically all the best characteristics of steel, with a weight advantage, lower maintenance (because no rust and no paint) and a look that never ages.
Nothing is perfect, but a good titanium bike comes very close.
@reginaldscot165 Hi Reginald and thanks for weighing in.
A good friend is prepping for a forever bike and really has his eye on the Litespeed Specia. I know you are partial to the T1... but the conversation reminded me of you and your bike.👍🏾
You're the best Luis. Really appreciate your time and you sharing your views 🖤
Thanks again Zach🙏🏾
It was a great opportunity 👍🏾
Recently bought a Ritchey road logic rim brake. After 13 years on a stiff aluminum bike. I owned a Pinella in 1999...great bike...crashed it and when I went to re-order a new one the distributor offered me the ti frame for $300 more so I bought that and raced it for 11 years....50K miles on both of those. People who say there is no difference in ride quality between frame materials have no idea. For my 3 hour training rides my avg speed, elapsed time and power #'s are the same on the Ritchey. I'm older now...on the aluminum frame I felt every crack in the road and found myself riding the hoods because my back was chirping. On the Ritchey I can stay in the drops all day and not feel beat up. The weight penalty is about 3/4 of a pound. I bought a light cassette and switched to those tubalito lightweight inner tubes and I'm very close to the aluminum bike now.
Luis, love your videos and appreciate the time and the effort you put into them. In my mind this video is more about bike choice over bike composition. I say this because without the bikes being exact in geometry or at least extremely close in geometry, I don't see how this would be a comparison. Maybe they are close and I missed that. Please keep producing these videos. Much appreciated. Thanks
The Blackheart looks so good!
It is Bro. Such an awesome machine.👍🏾
🖤🖤🖤
I ride Ti but I started on steel. Love them both❤
Yeah, they are both great👍🏾
That DarkStar is a beast! Beautiful bike!
I was reminded yesterday just how much subjective feel can be a distraction to actual performance. I took my heavy steel bike on a hill ride, complete with 50mm tires, and a long slack geometry. At one descent we rarely break 30. It felt like I was doing at most 20, but sure enough I was already hitting 28 and gaining, despite being overdue for a rest day. I had to do a double take at the bike computer. Twitchiness, road buzz, and overall comfort can completely overwhelm what you think is finely tuned perception of speed, acceleration, and other performance metrics. Wheels the "spin up fast" is another giant red flag in any review, as it is not like the wheels are decoupled from the speed of the bike, and the small weight difference only costs ~2x the meager difference. The cycling industry is long overdue for standardized testing of things like vertical and lateral stiffness, high speed stability, low speed turning radius, and so much more. End rant.
Thanks for sharing 👍🏾
Wheels speeding up is a thing. I was amazed at the benefit of carbon wheels.
@@bikeman123 OK. Can you quantify? Does going carbon make acceleration improve 1%, 10%, 25%? If the difference is so dramatic it should be easy for someone to quantify it, and yet it is all touchy feely opinions. I have two wheelsets for my gravel bike, upgrading to 50mm carbon rims for road tires. Honestly I really could not tell a noticeable difference.
I’m in the Titanium club (Seven Axiom), Steel club (old Bridgestone RB-1 racer is still amazing), and Carbon club (Emonda SLR). All are amazing. Depends on my mood and the ride for the day. If I had to pick ONE and only one, would probably be the Titanium. Comfort but still very agile and responsive. And super easy to maintain. I just completely overhauled, and all it takes is 15 minutes with a pad and the frame brushes back to like new finish. The Emonda SLR is a weapon. Unfortunately, I am not, but it is stiff, light and fast. All materials are good.
Luis, Ti. Built the whole thing myself. Chinese frame and fork, Shimano R7000 groupset. I'm 70, started riding 5 years ago. Addicted to the ride! Not that fast but I get there eventually.
Like your videos, keep up the good work.
Thanks Dick!
Love the video and the spicy music! Keep up the great work. I love my titanium just a little more also.
I have a Ti allroad bike. It puts a smile on my face every time I ride it. Havn't rode a proper steel road bike though.
Try one if you have a chance. I have an approximately 1980-84 Raleigh. It’s so smooth; however, just a tad on the beefy side.
That Darkstar is simply beautiful! Showing love from Ohio!
Great video! In terms of alternatives to carbon, it would be interesting to put magnesium in the mix. I bypassed carbon and to join my mid-90s steel Bianchi, added a Vaast magnesium and I am enjoying the feel thus far.
I have never put that much thought into cornering characteristics. My commuter and touring bikes do corner differently, and at times when I transition it takes 30 seconds or so to adjust. But it's all flow and balance. I don't think about it. Kudos to you for being able to put that experience into words and actual physical motions of your body.
I'm just putting a lot of money and effort into installing dynamo lighting with internal cabling on my steel-framed touring bike. But if that doesn't work out, the option I'm looking at is titanium. I've never ridden one, and the cost is quite the step up.
i have an 80's De Bernardi steel bike, it probably competes with your Pinella. The way it corners and responds is a thing of beauty.
Great comparison, I personally love stainless steel myself but can't afford to get a frame built for me. If you have access to one, I'd love to see a comparison to the titanium bike! Also do you know of any frame builders or companies who use scandium tubing? I used to play lacrosse and had a scandium stick and I loved it. I'd figure it would give similar characteristics to titanium with a little more compliance, but I have never seen one on the streets. Thanks again and enjoy your day!
THANK YOU a very complete evaluation not one thing left out im on the shelf as im sure you will understand Luis thank you for a greater understanding of frame materials and how they ride be Blessed.
Thank you David!
Great video! Have never ridden a Ti bike but am generally a bit skeptical because the tubes are often plain gauge. But Reynolds and Columbus actually do both sell double-butted Ti tubes. Have never seen or heard of a bike that used them though!
Thanks for watching 👍🏾
In the UK we have the Mason Resolution (steel) - Definition (aluminium) or the Fairlight Strael (steel) road bikes. Modern standards, plus ability to fit mudguards - fenders, it rains a lot in the UK, these all run on hunt bike wheels. These bikes would be my choice.
That blue polo looks very aero with that texture
Im with the steel Luis, i currently ride a Cinelli which i love to bits. Dumped my carbon rocket ship lol for it.
Massive Fan Of Vintage Road Bikes, Just Done a Quick Intro Video on my Bikes. id have both of your bikes really nice 👍👍
My one performance bike has been my fully carbon Open Up gravel bike. Everything else has been aluminum and steel. And by far the material that has proved to be the most compliant and comfortable has been steel. Having said that, my current carbon bike is pretty compliant because it’s built to be compliant in all the right places. However, given what you stated in your review I would go for the black heart titanium bike too. I want speed AND comfort
Luis, you inspired me to buy a Ti frame after watching your review. Well, sort of… I bought a Ti/carbon Sampson Exalt. I love the look and so far on my quick shake down ride it seems stable, responsive and accelerates well.
That is awesome to hear!
Steeeel baby, all the way! More tubing grades to choose from: Reynolds, Columbus, Tange etc.
👍🏾
As per usual, great review!!
It's almost an unfair comparison because of geometries and construction methods. I'm thinking it would be great to compare the same bike...one in steel and one in Ti (not an easy task, I know lol). That way, material, tubesets, butting profiles, etc. could be compared. Thoughts?
Also, the aesthetic comparison is unfair. I'm going to choose a raw metal almost every time. A simple white bike with black logos is going to lose to raw Ti...again...in my eyes. Now...raw steel showing the brazing and logos under a tinted clear...now we have a problem. Lol
Again, Luis, love what you're doing and your channel!
Love your broadcast. I own a lite speed, I've had Cannondale Cad10's and 3 Merckx Slx's, but my Merckx scandium may out perform all of them.
If your Merckx is the Team SC... that is an amazing bike.
Good video.. i havent ever ridden TI.. however, six months ago i put together a stelbel sb/04.. the new steel tubes are amazing in almost all the aspects compared to my carbon bikes, except on weight.. there still a material difference (vis a vis - disc brakes), that for a long climbing day is noticeable.. but, the Stelbel worked excellent in the GF Ocean to Ocean here in Panama.. i paired with enve 3.4 at 55 psi to smooth out the rough sections of tarmac. If there would have been more climbing, probably i would have gone for carbon. regards..
Hi Luis - greetings from Ireland. I have two wonderful bikes; a titanium Merlin Magia (made in the USA) and a steel Tommasini Tecno (fatto in Italia). The Merlin is light, fast and climbs like a rocket. It's also twitchy and has a scary speed wobble on descents. The Tommasini is heavy, slow to accelerate and climbs like a bucket of cement. It's also incredibly comfortable and, once you get up to speed, eats up the miles like a BMW Gran Turismo. They both look amazing - classy brushed titanium versus flashy Italian steel. Which do I prefer? Well, there is one huge external factor that tips the balance. I'm 66 years old and my carcass ain't what it used to be. I'll take comfort over speed any day - the Tommasini takes top step on the podium!
I'm in both camps.
But, I just picked up a mid-1980s Trek 4 00 with tangy prestige tubing. Really high quality. Rides great.
I used to race Eddie merckx Columbus SLX for 8 years so I know the difference between a poor quality steel bike and a good steel bike.
Paid a hundred bucks for this TREK and it rides great. 8-Speed ultegra in great condition.
I'm not going to national championships anymore, so I really don't need a race bike but my theory has always been that if you love your bike then you will ride more miles.
And I am very impressed with this bike.
I almost bought a litespeed ultimate on Craigslist last week which is really my dream bike.
But I think I'll be happy with this $100 Trek
I love this post. Thanks for sharing 👍🏾
Blackheart all Day every day. And I have both a steel and Aluminum bike but that TI looks amazing.
Thanks for sharing your insights 👍🏾
🖤🖤🖤
Some surprising findings! I was expecting the DS to be more agile because of the stiff Winspace rim brake wheels, and the extra weight of the disk rotors on the BH road Ti. Very good discussion because how you feel is more important than what happens in a lab setup. I think part of the difference may also be due to your more aggressive positioning on the Blackheart, which seems to put your hips closer to the BB.
I'd like to have a custom gravel/ travel Ti bike where I use high volume 650B for gravel, and 28mm 700C for road, with relatively short chainstays (around 415) and a Pegoretti style geometry. Not a fan of the long TT, short stem geometry that we see on many gravel bikes today.
Their performances are very close. Both good bikes👍🏾
Dang to be honest both look soo good. I lean towards the dark star because of the look of a horizontal top tube I love that which most vintage steel road bikes have. However, it’s splitting hairs at this point because both are rad!
I know what you mean. It was a joy to go back and forth on them.
Nice video, you know it’s the Blackheart Road Ti for me.
Luis, the feeling you mentioned when cornering is pretty much standard feature on all disc bikes. The fork is stiffer to be able to withstand the disc braking and therefore the bike feels less nimble when cornering.
Thanks for sharing. I haven't gotten that feeling from other disc bikes. Just got off a Basso Diamante and the cornering and turn in is much lighter.
I've never ridden Ti, though I'm definitely curious. My regular road bike is an Orbea Spirit (Columbus Spirit) and if it had slightly more tire clearance, it would be the perfect road bike. Probably very similar to your Bianchi. The skinny tire era has left us with a lot of amazing frames that just can't adapt to what we now know about tire width. Great content, as always. Thanks!
Nice insights there, Dan👍🏾
In my opinion, metal bikes are awesome. But I do like my carbon bikes as well. I think everyone should own one of each.
Luis, while I love your videos, I really have to say that this was not a fair comparison. To be a truly fair comparison both bikes would have to be built to the same specifications by the same builder. There are so many variables in a frame that can make subtle differences to how the bikes feel. Some of those variables are seat tube angle, head tube angle, BB drop, seat stay length etc. There are a few builders out there that can build in both Ti and Steel. Also the bikes do not have the same component specs. All of this can make a difference in overall ride feel as well as the subtleties of the ride. That said, overall it was a great comparison and I am glad that someone is willing to tackle this topic.
Hi George, thanks for watching. I am actually going to address this whole theme in a future video.
I wasn't going for a like for like comparison... or fairness for that matter.
I assume that a builder will build a frame to the best characteristics of the material by manipulating tube shapes and geometry... and we get what we get.
So that plays into it. But overall, these bikes are not far off from each other.
I appreciate your input.
I think I prefer Titanium mainly because I would enjoy the stiffness and the comfort of riding on a variety of roads. Steel from what I know transmits everything from the road making endurance rides not so enjoyable. I still prefer Carbon if my choice.
Keep producing great content.
Hi Hillis! Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Hope to see you at One Love
Steel is just the opposite. It is smooth, and kills high frequency vibration. If you can imagine what it feels to hold an electric razor in your hand, there's none of that with a steel frame coming through the bars and saddle. There is moreover some energy return when you dance on the pedals. Not as stiff as a race carbon, but a smooth ride, like a big BMW.
Hey Luis great video !
Was the Pinella the bike you had the seat tube replaced?
Looking forward to seeing your next video.
Hi Dino. Yes it is!
First bike was steel reynolds 531,next alumium ,now two bikes i have are carbon and steel.Steel is hard to beat ,never have titanium bike.I guess the later is stronger,but expensive to fix if it is damaged during ride.Thanks for clip.
Lovely video as always. I share a lot of your thoughts. I currently favour my titanium frame over my steel one but honestly this is mainly down to esthetics as in a blind test i would not bet money on being able to differentiate them. 🫣
Michael, you have great insights on this subject from your stable of bikes. I appreciate you watching 👍🏾
Very good and interesting video. However one thing to note is that not all titanium tubings are created equal. In 1992/1993, Bianchi used Columbus Hyperion Titanium tubing which was later used by some brands. At that era Ancotech, Sandvik and Reynolds were the main competitors of Columbus. Reynolds was widely used by Moots, Lynskey, Merlin, Litespeed and probably Independant Fabrication. Dedacciai titanium tubings appeared latetly in the 2000"s with K Class grade 9 butted with the second highest score of strenght of 123-134KSI behind the Reynolds 3/2,5 Butted with a score of strenght of 117-139KSI. Columbus Spirit offers a higher strenght than titanium with a score of 177-205KSI. Another thing to take in consideration is that a rim brake bike is lighter than a disc brake bike and less finicky to service. Rim brakes are lighter, stiffer and faster than disc brakes, braking requires skill. Plus changing a spoke or a disc brake pad on a disc wheel is a headache, that is why I don't have a single road disc brake bike nor a single road disc bike project in my stable. Another thing that struck me is why is the pivot steerer cut so low and the seat post too high ? I had an accident with my back two years ago but have also seen people complaining of back aches due to a steerer cut too short and seat post mounted too high. As for tires , yes tire technology elvolved but be careful of tubless road tires. I have always had slime anti puncture tubes put in my road bike wheels. I steel ride on 700* 23 and 700*25. I have tried a friend's Passoni , a very high end italian titanium brand that makes their own tubing but there is one thing I remarked , Titanium is softer than steel and in quick pedaling relaunches, titanium doesn't feel as rigid.I have observed that when ridding back then my friend's GT edge in titanium One of my road bike projects that I told you about , the 1998 Vetta Team made of dedacciai DR Zero Uno with its original steel fork is going to be finalized in september, I just need to source a pair of look pp396 yellow pedals. The weight of the bike is 9,3kilos not bad. Also bought another Dedacciai 18MCDV6HT steel frame from 1994, a Basso Viper, so loads of bike projects in the pipe.
Both
I have a moots rsl & torelli corsa strada
I agree with your take on both
But Ti camp for me
I´m not in anyones camp when it comes to framematerials.
A good bike is a good bike no matter what the material is.
And you can find titanium frames that feels like a steel frame and steel frames that feel like titanium frames.
It depends on to many varabiles to say that it is the material.
The framebuilder, the geometry, the type of titanium, steel or whatever material you use.
And the thickness and how the tubes are shaped inside and outside.
I currently have a modern carbon frame and a 14 year old aluminium frame.
I love them both.
My next bike will probably be a steel frame.
I love the Standert Pfafinder and the Condor Super Acciaio.
They feel so fast and comfortable.
I also like the Cinelli Nemo Tig, but that feels very similar to a carbon frame.
Nice video though.
Both are great bikes, but that Pinella looks sweet. I have an old aluminium Colnago and a slightly younger aluminium Bianchi. Looking to have either a high end steel (maybe XCr) or titanium. Your thoughts help.
Steel absorbs the bumps better than any alloy or titanium for a quarter the price. Especially the new steel being made these days.
Your emotional attachment to the Pinella is similar to my attachment to old school Cannondales. I have an Aethos and CAAD13, yet I am in the market for an old school CAAD or Rxxx. I test rode an R600 the other day and I was struck by the immediacy and directness of the handling and power transfer - it seems like all the new bikes have been tuned for comfort, which seems to have taken away from the sharpness of the bike. Which makes me really question what I should do with my current bikes. I only got the CAAD13 b/c my CAAD9 was stolen. Then I got the Aethos b/c the 13 didn’t quite have the sharpness of the 9. The Aethos is awesome, almost like a CAAD9 on steroids, but it has somewhat of a muted feel, I believe b/c the carbon is tuned for comfort. So I wonder if the best move is to pick up another CAAD9, which was my quiver of one for over 10 years, and sell the other bikes. I wonder, if you so clearly like the Pinella so much, why you have all the other bikes?
The Darkstar looks so cool. Love that bike.
It definitely got the looks!
Interesting video and thoughts, thanks. Some other things to consider on the "feel" of each of those bikes when comparing steel vs.Ti materials. The tube diameters and wall thickness of each tube will effect how it rides and feels whether it is steel or titanium. I've owned steel bikes back in the 1980's, including today, along with all the other tube materials. My current head scratching includes a very nice Ti hardtail mtn bike with Rockshox and Industry Nine wheels that I own; I also have a modern full rigid, drop bar, steel frame mountain bike with steel fork (a rare creature, small batch, tubes selected by frame size). No kidding, when the suspension fork is locked out my Ti mtn bike, it is way stiffer than the rigid steel bike that has a shorter wheelbase. But the steel bike is way faster. I think the art of frame design and material choice lies in that murky area of experience, and what the designer was going for regarding feel and purpose. Happy trails. ☮
Thanks for sharing your thoughts Mike!
Nice video mate!
Thank you 👍🏾
Luis great content, could you answer are you in a bike lane when you're in the group? If yes bro you've got it good
I would love to hear you chat with Reginald Scot about this topic.
I hope one day you have a chance to test one of the best steel frames made from xCr by Columbus tubing.
So do I my friend... So do I
Unfortunately I've only ever ridden cheap cheap steel bikes. Carbon has been my favourite material, but have just invested in a custom Ti frame. Looks great, haven't quite finished the build though.
Thanks for sharing Byron. Hope you enjoy it👍🏾
Really enjoying this video. Do you think the handling performance you prefer in the steel bike is down to material or geometry ?
I have a titanium Moots VaMoots 2012 road bike and I would say it handles like the steel bike you mentioned, but is comfortable like your ti bike.
Although , with enough miles on a bike a person adapts to most handling types I suppose ?
You’re a great personality
Thank you 🙏🏾
The titanium metal looks nice but I don't care for the dropped seatstays.
I’m not in any particular frame material camp, but I’ve never ridden carbon or titanium.
The 1991 Basso Paris-Roubaix I had really beat me up it was so non-compliant. But I was using 23c tires and an alloy seat post, and back then I didn’t know how much of a difference those things make.
The 2017 BMC TeamMachine ALR01 is downright plush in comparison.
But now I want a custom-made frame - a “forever” bike. With my budget, I could go for a Waltly titanium frame from China, or some local frame builder (NY State / East Coast area) who could use Spirit or/and 853. I don’t race and I don’t train with a watt meter or Strava or any of that. I just ride hard for fun.
Anybody got advice / opinions?
Hi Tom. Thanks for watching. A name that consistently comes up for custom is Marinoni. I have no experience with them, so please do your research.
There is also lots of videos by people who have used Walty. Best of luck to you!
I have steel, alloy, and carbon in 4 different bike. All doing great.
Nice! Thanks for watching 👍🏾
My Ti bike makes my 1970's era Peugeot feel flimsy. For me Ti is very stiff, far stiffer than carbon. The first thing I noticed on my Ti bike was how much crisper the shifts were, no flex at all in the derailleur hanger. My Ti forks did not have as much rake as my steel bike, making it much twitchier. For me the Ti bike feels much more predictable in its handling characteristics, I am really enjoying the bike. I like to change bikes about every 50 years, I wanted something lighter than steel but nearly as strong, and last the rest of my life.
Ti Camp All Day #BlackPedal
Ha ha. Yeah, it's cooking👍🏾
🖤🖤🖤
It all depends on the particular bike. A bike is more than the material. I have ridden road bikes for 37 years and have owned and ridden a ton of bikes and there are steel bikes I loved and other I hated. Same with titanium.
Luis, is the Bianchi made out of boron steel? I had one and it was silky.
Oh yeah, I prefer the Blackheart! 😍
👍🏾
Steel is more of a lightening rod to me. Where we climb 🏔️ it may rain or be sketchy weather come time. Started with steel GT Edge and ended up with the latest GT Edge titanium.
What're the fork and searpost material on both?
Both please 😀
Bianchi is your favorite bicycle? Is it aluminum or steel?
I love both but have never tried a modern steel frame. Its hard to compare a 70’s steel build to modern Ti.
As a matter of fact I’m in both - simultaneously and full custom 😈
As for choice: the difference is in the detail, but my steel bikes do draw a bigger crowd.
But then again the sexyness my 56” penny farthing makes both of your options look like wall-flowers 😋
I have titanium frame made as copy of geometry from Colnago V2R/3RS and it handles exaclty the same. Just 500 gram heavier. It is more comfortable than carbon and quiet in riding. Few other bikes made of steel, also very close geometry, some steel some carbon forks, they all feel just little less responsive but all more comfortable. Handling is almost the same, only steel forks give more confidence in very fast decending.
Thanks for sharing. That V3rs geometry is so good. 👍🏾
I've heard from frame builders that the fork has more to do with ride and handling than the frame does. Almost any modern performance bike will have a somewhat generic carbon fork regardless of frame material. I think it's sad that this seems to be a critical area that is overlooked (less than ideal turn-in and toe overlap for instance). That said my preference is vintage steel with a matching 1" steer tube fork. These older framesets commonly came in a dozen or more individual sizes each with a carefully built fork to match. Then again I like all vintage things, which is also why I like myself.
if you have a heavier tires or wheelset its going to naturally settle down at speed increases. conversely toss on an ultralight tireset and it will absolutely make the bike feel way more nimble and lighter at 40kph+
👍🏾
I prefer more authentic of steel bikes, so I own 3 of them. And ti bike an own only one. But all are great bikes, as well as aluminum or carbon bikes, that I currently doesn’t have. 🎉
I've had/have both titanium and steel. I prefer steel, especially my Reynolds 853 bike. It has air harden steel that is stiff but also compliant with a springyness that I enjoy. Titanium is nice but doesn't have that same feel. Titanium absorbs impacts well but not the return of energy that a high-quality steel bike does.
The Ti bike might just be a little more aero resulting in that 1mph faster
What brand are the steel tubes on the darkstar?
Hi Clark. Columbus Spirit tubing.
I'm in the ''the material that is best, most smartly applied rather than the material itself'' camp.
so are you, so is anybody.
comparing frame materials is a bit of a fool's errand, too many other relevant variables are always at play.
I have both a Ti and Steel :)
Nice!
Hey Lu, where can I find a darkstar steel frame ??
There were only a few made back around 2016 or 2017... not likely to find one.
@@thegoodwheel 👍
I’m in all camps lol I have a Ti disc bike, Reynolds 931 stainless and Columbus spirit steel rim campy bikes and a campy Supersix EVO rim brake bike.. all are awesome and have their own characters bit like family members 😊 🚴🏻👍Pete
I'm loving your stable Pete!
How do I buy a Darkstar
Unfortunately, they are no longer made.
I will take the steel
I think I'm in the steel camp.
The Darkstar has more appeal to me. I'm impressed with its ability.
Thanks for sharing Ronald!
I'm team Ti, but steel is still my first love......and carbon is the fun mistress 😂
Love the way you put that😂😂
I prefer disk brakes so I would vote for the titanium.
Call me a purist, but I’m not a fan of drop seat stays on Ti frames….
Understood! Thanks for sharing👍🏾
Every single bike in the pro peloton has drop seat stays for several years now
@@Omnis2 what does that mean?
Anyone have a favorite frame maker
Too many variables in 'ride feel' to call the frame responsible. Tire width matters, yes, but so does the actual tire, internal rim width, and tire pressure. And then wheel stiffness makes a difference, too. You absolutely have to isolate the frame by controlling those variables (the fork, seatpost, stem, and handlebars will also affect). Next time, ride both frames with the same wheels and tires at least. Good video, otherwise.
Steel is ALWAYS better than titanium. Last longer, more comfortable and much cheaper.
The only thing titanium beats steel is in weight, but anybody willing to pay for a titanium frame can pay for a steel frame that will be almost as light and still have all the other benefits.
Rusty steel is my current deal.
Natural weight reduction😂
Steel is real.
👍🏾
4:05 Not much discipline in that group. It would annoy me riders squeezing up on the inside.
modern steel is martensitic , which is very stiff & trend to fail over time ( too thin & brittle )
Your ti road frame have no seatstay bridge, it exacerbate the noddlely of titanium rear end