Origen, Eternal Torments, and the Reason Men Fall Into Heresy
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 ส.ค. 2024
- Excerpted from Lesson 4: The Revelation of Jesus Christ to the Apostle & Evangelist John the Theologian, Rev. 14: 9-12 (Series 4), by Fr. Peter Heers
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Lord Jesus Christ Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner."
Amen
I personally greatly struggle with this. I desire it and pray for it, but as a new orthodox if it’s not explicitly endorsed I cannot accept it. Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. Lord have mercy on every soul. Oh Lord, save us.
المجد لك يارب المجد لك يارب المجد لك يارب
ربي يسوع المسيح ابن الله ألحى أرحمني أنا عبدك الخاطئ امين
"Heresy is the logical interpretation of dogma." I've never heard it put that way before and at face value it seems strange, but with the context of it referring to using your personal philosophy or reasoning rather than the revealed word it makes complete sense and more than that, I think it's a valuable thing to keep in mind.
Hey, we both have a similar profile picture
Lord Have Mercy
Algorithm boost.
Chapter 14:9-11 of Revelation is talking about the earthly judgments at the end of chapter 14 and then the Seven Plagues in chapters 15 and 16. If you read chapters 14, 15 and 16 in sequence it becomes very clear that it's not about eternity but about these final judgments occurring in history. It also uses hyperbole and apocalyptic language. The smoke of their torment rising forever signifies the finality of their judgment.
💗☦👍
The quoted footnote from Constantine Zalalas - 9:41-10:04, said:,,Thomas Acquainas who considered ancient Greek philosophy equal and even superior to the theology of the Church Fathers. Origen and the scholastics place the burden of hell on God and His justice, which they confused with His essence. Thus the righteousness of God demands the punishment of the sinner as Baptists teach to this day.''
Although God's Justice is not His essence but it is one of His uncreated attributes as His uncreated energies (as for example St.Basil the Great explains in letter 234.1), if His eternal love which is also an uncreated energy contradicted his uncreated Justice, that would introduce dualism which is impossible. Therefore it is either that God's Justice demands punisment of the sinners without that contradicting His Love, or it is that God's Justice means something else instead of a meaning of an eternal judicial power that has a positive aspect of rewarding the righteous and a negative one of punishing the unrepented sinners. One of the two options is true. It is the first one - His Justice as a judicial power to reward or punish does not contradict His love because such a contradiction is what the gnostic dualist Marcion taught and which lead to dualism, and which was condemned by the Church (Canon 95 of the Ecumenical Council of Trullo, 692).
It seems all heresy stems from disbelief that the Holy Spirit guides the Church. That what the Orthodox Church makes official statements about through councils and synods is ordained by God, does somehow not apply to all Orthodox Christians, appears to be the root of heresy
Have you covered revelation 20 yet?
Colossians 1:19-20 says he(Jesus) through God will reconcile ALL things to himself on earth and heaven. That’s scripture. 1st Corinthians 15:22-23 says All men die in Adam, just as all will be raised in Christ. But according to their fruits. It doesn’t mean there will be no hell it just means eventually God will reconcile the world to himself so that he may be all in all (1st corinthians 15:28) Even Philippians 2:9-10 says the Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Christ is Lord.
"Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched," repeated thrice in Mark 9.
And from Matthew 3: "he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."
The Saints have always taught that Hell is eternal.
@@raymondcannon2141 all of the saints? That can’t be true because Gregory of Nyssa, Gregory the Theologian, Maximus the Confessor, Saint Isaac the Syrian all taught or believed in (gregory the theologian didn’t fully teach it) but was said to have held to some form of apokotasis. Not the same as Origenism. Gregory of Nyssa corrected Origen using scripture and other fathers (including Paul) to say that Gods eschatological vision is a restoration of all things. Hell can’t be eternal because Evil cannot be infinite if God is reconciling all of Creation to himself. That would make Evil (which is the absence of the Good) an eternal force on par with God. It is also a form of Manachesim that St Augustine believed and was actually condemned by much of the early church leaders.
@@Bronsonb24
Have you listened to Fr. Peter Heers much?
The Orthodox view of the eschaton, as I understand it, is that the blessed and the damned will both experience the love of God; One as joyful communion, the other as a consuming fire.
This isn't terribly hard. Evil has no ontological existence, but the hardened sinner will be lacking something that the saints of God will not.
The way I understand it, Hell is and isn't eternal depending on what "Hell" we are talking about. In reality there are two concepts that often get translated as Hell: Sheol/Hades and Gehenna/Fire. Sheol/Hades is the absence of God, and Gehenna/Fire is the presence of God. Sheol/Hades is death, darkness, and hopelessness. When Adam and Eve sinned they clothed themselves and hid from the presence of God. When man sins, he hides in the darkness (away from the light of God) so that his sins can't be seen. He hides in his lies (away from the truth of God). He also hides in death (away from the life of God). As man sins, he runs away from life and hides in death. That is how man gets into Hell #1 (Sheol/Hades). However, God became man, died, descended into death and conquered death. Now there is no place left that we can hide from the presence of God. Psalm 139:8 says "If I ascend into heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in hell [sheol/hades], behold, You are there." Revelation says that man will look for places to hide, but there will be nowhere left to hide. All will face the "wrath" of God. This is Hell #2. The presence of God is his judgement and punishment. His light exposes our sins which is judgement. Also, God is love (1 John 4:8) and God is a consuming fire (Hebrews 12:29). The unquenchable eternal fire is the love of God (Song of Solomon 8:6-8), which is our punishment... How does love punish? In Romans 12:17-21, Paul quotes Proverbs 25:20-22 which in it's context is referring how good things can cause suffering. When a man with a heavy heart hears others singing, it causes him suffering because the happiness of others makes his own suffering more apparent. Likewise if you treat your enemy with love, you will heap coals of fire on his head. The coals of fire are the shame and remorse that one feels when his hostility is repaid with kindness. If you give your enemy no fault to find in you (by repaying their hostility with kindness) they will have no one else to blame and they will be forced to look inward to see the evilness within themselves. I believe this is ultimately the path for the conviction of sin and the plan for salvation of man. So I would say that Hell #1 (death) is temporary, but Hell #2 (love and life) is eternal. However, I am not convinced that man will experience Hell #2 as "Hell" forever. I believe the love of God will eventually transform the hearts of all men and save all. At which point Gods love doesn't bring punishment, it brings comfort. God's light destroys darkness, truth destroys lies, faith destroys hopelessness, life destroys death, and love destroys evil. Paul was a murder of the church/body of Christ and God saved him. Who is there that God cannot save?
@@RyanPaly
Your Opinon is worth about as much as mine, and the Traditional understanding is that for the unrepentant sinner, after the Judgment, there will be no opportunity to change.
Listen to a man far wiser than me;
And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." - Matthew 25:46
He sends those on the left into the fire which had been prepared for the devil. For as the demons are without compassion and are cruelly and maliciously disposed towards us, it is fitting that they who are of like mind with them, and who have been cursed by their own deeds, should merit the same punishment. See that God did not prepare the fire for men, nor did He make hell for us, but for the devil; but I make myself liable to hell. Tremble, then, O man, and understand from this that these men were not punished as fornicators, or robbers, or perpetrators of any other vice, but for not having done good. For indeed, if you consider things well, the robber is he who has much and does not give alms, even if he does no obvious injury. For whatever he has in excess of his needs, he has stolen from those who are in need and who have not received anything from him. For if he had shared these things with them, they would not be in need. Now that he has locked these things up and kept them for himself, for this very reason they are in need. So he who does not give alms is a robber, doing injustice to all those whom he could have helped but did not, and for this reason he and those like him shall go away into eternal punishment which never ends; but the righteous shall enter into eternal life. For just as the saints have unceasing joy, so too the unjust have unceasing punishment, despite the gibberish of Origen who says that there is an end to hell and that sinners will not be punished for ever, but that there will be a time when they enter the place of the righteous because they have been purified by suffering in hell. Origen is clearly refuted here, both when the Lord speaks of "everlasting punishment," that is, never ending, and when He likens the righteous to sheep and the sinners to goats. For just as a goat can never become a sheep, neither can a sinner ever be cleansed and become righteous after the Judgement. "Outer darkness" [mentioned in the preceding parable of the talents] is that which is furthest from the light of God and for that reason renders the punishment more harsh. There is another reason that could be mentioned, and that is that the sinner is in darkness even in this life, as he has fallen away from the Sun of Righteousness, but as there is still hope of conversion, this is not yet the "outer" darkness. But when he has died and an examination has been made of the things he has done, then the outer darkness in its turn receives him. For there is no longer any hope of conversion, but he undergoes a complete deprivation of the good things of God. While he is here in this life he enjoys to some degree the good things of God, I mean, the tangible things of creation, and he believes that he is in some manner a servant of God, living out his life in God’s house, which is this creation, being fed by Him and provided with the necessities of life. But then he will be altogether cut off from God, having no share at all in the good things of God. This is that darkness which is called "outer" by comparison to the darkness here, which is not "outer" because the sinner is not yet completely cut off from this time onward.
You, then, O reader, flee from this absence of compassion, and practice almsgiving, both tangible and spiritual. Feed Christ Who hungers for our salvation. If you give food and drink to him who hungers and thirsts for teaching, you have given food and drink to Christ. For within the Christian there is Christ, and faith is nourished and increased by teaching. If you should see someone who has become a stranger to his heavenly fatherland, take him in with you. While you yourself are entering into the heavens, lead him in as well, lest while you preach to others, you yourself be rejected. If a man should cast off the garment of incorruption which he had at his baptism, so that he is naked, clothe him; and if one should be infirm in faith, as Paul says, help him; and visit him who is shut up in the dark prison of this body and give him counsel which is as a light to him. Perform, then, all of these six types of love, both bodily and also spiritually, for we consist of both soul and body, and these acts of love are to be accomplished by both.
- Theophylact of Ochrid
Read more commentaries at catenabible.com/com/58a5ce5154b4f95416b2f7a1
What about Matthew 18:34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.
35 “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”
This parable is suggesting that the punisment of the God in the kingdom of heaven is not permanent.
Yes, only if one interprets this like a Protestant and disregards all of the other verses of the Scriptures and commentaries of the Fathers which say that condemnation is eternal.
@@OrthodoxEthos Thank you for your response Father! Forgive me i found Church only 4 years ago and i am still taking first steps. How should i understand this parable?
@jarrilaurila I'm thinking that some debts are so large they cannot by reasonable standards of time be paid. This would mean that some people are so sinful that hell is practically infinite compared to others.
Could be wrong. Just a speculation.
@OrthodoxEthos I really like the orthodox church, but when is it claimed that the church fathers are perfect like Jesus? I usually agree with your content, but you might be wrong on this one (bear in mind Im a beginer who hasn't even joined the orthodox church yet).
@jarrilaurila Good response. Christians should strive to have such honest humility.
Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment.
καὶ ἀπελεύσονται οὗτοι εἰς *κόλασιν αἰώνιον* .
the Liddell, Scott, Jones Ancient Greek Lexicon (LJS),
κόλᾰσῐς (kólasis) 1. A checking the growth of trees, esp. almond-trees. 2. chastisement, correction; of divine retribution.
αἰώνιος (aionious) lasting for an age (αἰών II), perpetual, eternal.
there are 3 verses given with αἰώνιος and they are :
Romans 16:26 the eternal God ; Genesis 9:16 the rainbow as a reminder of the everlasting covenant ;
Exodus 27:21 tending the lamps outside the veil in the Temple is a permanent statute for the Israelites for the generations to come.
LOOKING INTO THE GREEK DEFINITIONS REALLY REVEALS ALOT.
Perhaps you can help, Father. I keep asking why I should accept the Orthodox claim of revelation. I live in Utah; the Mormons tell me to "humble myself, pray, and see that God is guiding the LDS church through revelation." How do I discern between these two claims without applying reason? If reason is a proper tool in this case, what about when reason contradicts Orthodox revelation? I am not a rationalist; I am quite aware of the fallibilities of human reason. Nevertheless, that acknowledgment doesn't mean I should automatically fully embrace a claimed source of trans-rational revelation, because I'm confident you wouldn't want me to do so with Mormonism.
For the record, I have no interest in joining the Mormon Church. Because it is obviously fraudulent, I just find them to be a helpful test-case for embracing claims of revelation. I want good tools to finding truth; I don't find "Just have faith, trust that revelation is guiding the Church" is a good tool to find truth, as those tools could allow me to embrace the ridiculous system of Mormonism.
Many false teachings have resulted from revelations from demons. In Orthodoxy we do not say that everyone should seek direct revelation from God because this usually leads to delusion and is not according to God’s will. Galatians 1:8 says, “But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.” If a person has not received the Apostolic Faith and been baptized in the Orthodox Church, if they have not been under the guidance of an Orthodox spiritual father, how can such a person spiritually discern truth from falsehood? We should first learn what the saints who were filled with the Holy Spirit have taught from Apostolic times because that is according to God’s will. If we reject the witness of holy people for 2,000 years because we think we deserve a private and direct revelation from God, then this comes from pride and will result in demonic deception.
@@OrthodoxEthos I'm not talking about personal revelation; I'm talking about the claims of both Orthodoxy and Mormonism that the Church as a whole is guided by divine revelation. How would we compare both of these claims without reason?
Can you put translation into romanian please?
Reason is not inherently opposed to dogma. The point of apokatastasis is that ultimately all will be (and in fact are) united with God (i.e., all will be saved). It's THE metaphysical truth of reality.
Because there's a temptation for people to pervert this truth and believe that they can live a life of conscious sin is a gross misunderstanding. But it also doesn't change the reality of God's union with all that is. People have long believed in hell and damnation and that still hasn't convinced them to live holy lives.
Nobody said reason was inherently opposed to dogma. The point is regarding rationalism.
"All will be saved" is not Scriptural, not Patristic, not Christian.
9And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. 12Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. (Revelation 14:9-12 KJV)
42And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea. 43And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 45And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 47And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: 48Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. (Mark 9:42-48 KJV)
Everyone will be resurrected and transfigured in the revelation of the glory of God, but you have NO reason to expect that the sinner and the Saint will experience it the same way.
The sinners will be in the fullness of the presence of God, and they will not escape their chosen destiny.
@raymondcannon2141 2:11 "It's the logical interpretation of dogma. That's what heresy is."
2:54 "So they fall into heresy the minute that they begin to interpret dogma by the reason or the mind instead of accepting it as revelation from God and crucifying their mind on the revelation of God."
There could be no dogma without the use of man's faculty of reason. A dogma can be rational or irrational based on its accordance with reality, but this determination requires the use of reason. It's really a bigger issue of how we know what we know (i.e., epistemology) and the nature of reality (i.e., metaphysics) - both of which the Church is specifically involved.
@@nicodemuseamI made no such claim. Furthermore, where's this dividing line between sinner and saint? There is no binary categorization. As we find in Romans: "There is no one righteous, not even one...for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."
The fact is, all are (and will forever be) united with God. That we can be sure of.
@@Aaron-xb4rq
The righteous and the unrighteous? The sheep and the goats? Surely you see the parallels in the Scriptures. God will make this judgment, and it will be PERFECT.
Origen wasn't in heresy.
You should take your own advice.
What advice was that?