Devon, Big fan here. I only buy PPV because of you and i will always support you. But Michael Todds elbow lock position is a terrible thing to watch. Your King's move is amazing. Michael Todd is just disgrace to the evolution of AW the way he uses his kings move. The bone lock was unbearably bad to watch against Genadi and i would like to never see it ever again. Hope ermes breaks it. Nothing personal to michael but genadi was winning that match without elbow lock BS.
I don’t know why you keep exposing yourselves to criticism on this topic. Love or hate the Kings move, Devon is right. There are all kinds of “limitations,” “mobility issues,” and “genetic defects,” that could be deemed advantages that you’d have to police in all kinds of positions, not just the kings. It’s a slippery slope. What’s the plan for that?
Or course theres a multitude of mobility issues that can arise. But it is beyond obvious rhat the one the most beneficial to armwrestling is being able to effectively have an elbow bonelock while still having a parallel humerus. This is the pinnacle of « mobility issues ». We need to find a ruling against a straight elbow that allows someone toneffectively rest his flexors while exhausting his opponent. When you straighten ones arm in armwrestling, you should win. One way would be adjustable pin pads for elite armwrestlers : you rest the arm on the table and ask the athlete to fully extend (which they will do because it’s at their advantage) and adjust the pin pas as to make it touch the ulna. That way the « mobility issues » of every arhlete is taken in consideration.
No no Devin is inherently wrong just because he begins with logical fallacies to 'prove' his point😂 He wouldn't need to do all this antics and bs drama and bulshit if he was right😂
Man I had thought about that but that's a perfect way to make sure that they don't deliberately not straighten their arm out of the way when you're measuring. That way they will want to open the arm as much as physically possible so that the pad they have will not be higher but lower❤@louisolivierfortin
Armwrestling, like MMA, includes various styles of fighting. In MMA, fighters can choose specific styles like jiu-jitsu or taekwondo, each with unique strategies. For example, jiu-jitsu focuses on fighting on the ground. The kingsmove in armwrestling is similar-it’s a unique technique, akin to fighting on the ground in jiu-jitsu. Saying the kingsmove should be illegal is like saying ground fighting in jiu-jitsu should be banned. All fighters leverage their strengths to gain an edge. For instance, if a boxer has a natural advantage, like unusually large knuckles, and uses it to deliver powerful knockouts, it wouldn’t be considered illegal. Similarly, armwrestlers should be allowed to use their natural or developed advantages, like the kingsmove. The Kingsmove is Beatable: The kingsmove is not an unbeatable technique. Michael Todd, known for his kingsmove, faced a long losing streak that lasted nearly a year. If the kingsmove or its bone lock were an unfair advantage, he wouldn’t have struggled for so long. Todd had to improve his fundamental strength to compete and win again, proving that the technique alone isn’t enough to guarantee victory.
the question is, what should be the arm extension angle limit ?? 90°, 135°, 160°, 170° 175°, 178°, 179°, 180° ?? that's the real problem, as the arm extends more and more you gain more and more leverage. Both fighters are allowed to do the King's move, and both fighters can choose to fight in that position or not, if you are being "drained" by a king's mover, just get out of that position, go back to the center!
in poker 2 aces in hand (strongest possible cards u can have) win only 33% rounds - so yeah, they are beatable. But it doesn;t fin mean u should start with double aces every single round because of that. Do u have brain? Do you understand the odds/chances/advantages of something vs something, when compared objectively in terms of their strenghts?
I really don’t see the problem if they keep their shoulders above the table, the fact it’s beatable shows it’s not necessarily a cheat code but a tough move to counter. That however can be said about any move depending on who’s claiming what. This just seems a witch hunt for MMT esp, but also Devon……
The only problem above the table I see is the kings mover leveraging his forearm off the edge of the pad, using the table to absorb the finishing pressure. Ryan Bowen, MMT and Larratt do this all the time. It was key for Ryan to stop Schoolboy. It was key for MMT to defeat Larratt in 2018. Also, Devon gets his fanbase to witch hunt athletes several times per year. So who cares?
@ and what if it does leverage his forearm as you claim? It’s a natural advantage …..AW has things like risers for short people but tall people need to deal with the opposite problem, these are the kind of things that need talked about in terms of certain people gaining advantages …..as for the KM well, Again, as long as the shoulders above the table then it’s within the rules……
@ I'm not sure if you see what I'm trying to point at, and it is a little hard to articulate. Imagine bringing the edge of a 2x4 off of the side of a table, such that the board is set into a lever --- forcing a minimum angle greater than 0* relative to the table top. As you apply force to the levitated end of the 2x4, it receives resistance from this lever. The resistance comes from the table and is translated into the board. Back to armwrestling, we have the shoulder-dipping rule for the kings move which prevents exactly this for the upper arm, but not the forearm. The cushion of the pad alleviates sheer force from the forearm too. Consequently, this seems to turn the riser into a brick wall. So the opponent is forced to lose his wrist in order to finish the pin. Devon exploits this whenever his kings move begins to fails, and it drastically drains the opponent. It makes the opponent suddenly have to PR against the direct resistance of his own strength generated by the lever through the table. Does this make sense?
@ For the scenario I describe, it is on the boundary of an elbow foul. I propose that when the elbow foul occurs, it is considered a losing position loss.
Everyone has seen it beat already. He said it's beatable, he said he never lost to king's move, idk if that means he never had to deal with it or what. The problem with his argument is the way he describes it is already illegal. So I don't get his point
@miketurner1908 it doesn't make sense because the only way to straight arm with humerus above the table is by literally being on the pin pad. We all agree humerus below the table is cheating but if we have to make a specific rule for 1 or 2 guys who happens to have deformed arms slightly angled and can't straighten out, then Goodluck having refs having to make that judgement call mid match of when he is or isn't completely straight armed...
@@bsstyle123Look at michael todd’s face in his match against genadi. At some point you can see a complete relaxation during his bonelock position while genadi was exhausting himself. It can’t be more obvious, his biceps/brachialis were chilling. Also he doesnt have normal elbow range of motion so even with level humerus he’s not getting pinned. That’s where it gets tricky and that’s why we must find ways to create ruling against that.
@louisolivierfortin LOL you can't be serious if your proof is "just look at MMT's face". Why don't you look at MMT's face when he faced Jerry? Is that a face of a man who is relaxing like he's on a vacation in Cancun?
@@MelbourneMasterIIRC Justin said that the shoulder has to be above or parallel to the elbow pad, as soon as it goes under during a Kings move it is a foul.
@@MelbourneMaster Refs should make sure the bottom of the shoulder doesn't go below the elbow pad, that will more consistently make sure people aren't resting on their triceps to gain height.
@@utewbd These guys can still sit on their tricep with their shoulder parallel, infact they also love to shrug a bit to get away with more. The arm angle due to bonelock is the most important part
@@ForceRXit's clear that you're resting your forearm against bicep. And pretty much using your body weight to pin the opponent. It's all elbow joint and very less use of tricep.
@@yuvrajsingh9138 Yes, one direction is locked but position is quite weak to resist sideways movement. When opponent pulls towards him opening your shoulder line.
why are we catering so much to flop pressers. Only a flop presser should worry that much about a kings move but in my opinion the flop press is just as much of a desperation move as a kingsmove. It also relies on bone locks and frame, its equally ugly of a move.
We just saw how u can flashpin floppers as demonstrated by Levan and Ermes. Atleast in flop press ur arm angle stays tight compared to L shtsmove where ur arm is completely stretched open and Devon/MT are hanging desperately on their bonelock
@@astwasit’s pointless talking to Devononlyfans. It’s funny many of these people hated Michael Todd for beating Devon with that Kings years back. I hated it then as well and i hate it now.
Stop scapegoating the flop press to rescue this shit move. Shoulder-based rules have been enforced on the press for decades. The same must be done for the kings move.
@1:00 well with the current humerus rule this isn’t even an issue….and when Devon used the term “arm bar” he’s referring to the MMA submission move. When someone is in an “arm bar” they’re in a lot of pain and forced to submit. So what he was saying that if someone is in an arm bar they can’t remain there. But regardless in KOT or EVW this “hanging under the table with straight arm” isn’t an issue.
....an “arm bar” in MMA is NOT comparable in this scenario: in that situation, the opponents hip acts as a fulcrum on the elbow and causes the elbow to bend ‘backwards’ beyond 180 degrees, and this is why it forces a submission / you can’t stay there, the opponent is thrusting his hips upwards into your elbow Now I’m not saying I’m definitely against the kings move, but it’s not directly comparable to an armbar in MMA , the opponent isn’t directly using part of his body to hyperextend your elbow
@ Janis is using the term “arm bar” to describe the kingsmove. Im pointing out that it’s not comparable. If someone is in an arm bar they submit due to pain. Janis is using the term saying that a person can use an “arm bar” position in a kingsmove to an advantage. That’s not possible. If someone is feeling pressure similar to an “arm bar” (hyper extension) it is very painful and not a position you can hold comfortably. So yeah it’s not a good comparison or term to use.
@ ah okay I see, understand where you’re coming from. And ya Janis shouldn’t really use that term specifically cause it’s really not the same thing Although with the table being in the way, the arm can’t be hyperextended to the same degree....but still I think it’s missing the entire point; the kingsmove / armbar position (if you wanna call it that) is not “unbeatable”, it’s been proven beatable many times by many different guys
Janis, why were you not speaking of it so loudly while Michael Todd was not at such peak form? "Two guys or two girls hanging with two straight arms under the table is not such bright future for the sport" - sounds so liberal - i can barely making myself listen to it. Moreover, how many matches were taken like this?? Almost NONE! As a professional you have to be prepared for any move your opponent has to offer, not to cry over it - don't you agree? I do hope that this overreaction to kingsmove from certain armwrestlers will just be forgotten soon enough, otherwise, as Devon said, this will not be limited by kingsmove talk - you may just start to measure people arms and do not match a tall armwrestler with a short one - isn't it the same "cheating"?)))
@@ne-vri and that example of two guys hanging under the table is now illegal in most leagues and effectively banned in pro leagues so it’s not even an issue
Devon had nothing for Janis in the debate. Janis presented real facts and logic, and used examples. Devon's response was: Why isn't that 70-year-old world champion? Lmao🤡
The main difference between the press and the Kingsmove comes down to how they use strength and technique during a match: With the press, you need strong shoulders and triceps to take control of the center and finish the match. However, if your arm opens up during the match, it becomes almost impossible to hold your position, and you’ll most likely lose. A hook, which is based on biceps and side pressure, can easily beat a presser by overpowering their arm and taking control. The press depends heavily on muscle strength, making it easier to counter with the right move. The Kingsmove, on the other hand, works by fully stretching the arm near the edge of the pad. In this position, it is very hard for the opponent to finish unless they can take your wrist. Unlike the press, the Kingsmove doesn’t rely much on muscle power like side pressure or biceps strength. Instead, it uses body positioning and takes advantage of bones, joints, ligaments, and tendons. Giving up the wrist at the start can even be part of the strategy, as it helps with pronation (turning the hand to control the opponent’s wrist). The Kingsmove is about using angles and body mechanics, and there is no direct counter to it. To stop it, the opponent must have enough strength, hand control, and leverage to completely shut it down. Without a long lever (long arms) or strong hand control, it’s incredibly hard to beat the Kingsmove, even if you are stronger. For example, if a hooker (inside puller) is stronger than a Kingsmover but still can’t pin them, it feels unfair. This is what Janis is pointing out - the Kingsmove makes raw strength less important by focusing on body mechanics instead.
It is hilarious that the same ppl who cried about the kings move when MMT used it are now defending it just because they are Devon fangirls. You can't get through to these females with reason, they only think based on emotion. They will always agree with whatever Devon says.
Youre 100% right, pronation and hand control are way too beautyful to ruin it with an open angle, straight arm should be a fault for the beauty of this sport.
It's just another technique. Devon and Genadi showcased how to beat it. You just need to be ready for it! For me a nastier technique is flop wrist defence - it can easily get you stuck such that you don't even know what to do next - you can't go sideways (unless you are much stronger), and you can't go back because either you'll get pressed, or there's no more space left. With the king's move you at least have an option to re-grip, control the center, climb, throw in the shoulder, etc...
Its not that he cant beat it, but his point is that if armwrestling comes to the 2 best in the world being kingsmovers it will be boring to watch and will escentially be about who has a better bone lock
The "just beat it" answer like that, and from Devon is absurd. The requirement for something to be considered cheating is not that it has to be unbeatable, its that you get an unfair advantage. This argument is like asking a boxer to ignore the opponent continually low punching him in the balls because the ref wont call it 🤷♂️
Did you really call a "flop wrist" defense as the most trickiest? 😂 You have total hand dominance and can't beat someone's bicep? Then you're just weak my brother. If someone can simply bicep curl your max strength then you need to get stronger. See how Irakli defended against John. Flop wrist defense. He was just too damn strong for even John. In that position, you have all the advantages.
Janis, A lesson on being a high level human and leader… Stop throwing out how long you’ve done something. It doesn’t make your argument anymore compelling. “I’ve worked on patients for 20 years, I’ve arm wrestled for 30 years.” You know you are losing a debate when you start doing this. Stay humble, drop your ego, and level up as a man. Good luck
When thousands of fanboy sheeps, who never touched an armwrestling table, tries and talk how Janis is a nobody in armwrestling, he is not allowed to say this? And you somehow talk about being a man? Trying to sound hardcore and all that. 😆
If kings move relies on a bone lock then flop wrist does as well, as getting your shoulder in "testing your frame" in defending against a stronger opponent does. All 3 scenarios present a case where the defender has "lost" either their bicep, wrist, or center table. Should that defender lose? Logic is fun. I like where this is going. A "pure" sport 🫳😂 But Janis won't respond to this.
Those that "need" these clarifications cannot or will not hear them. Trolls will troll. The Last Jedi is Eminently Qualified to speak on the matter. You might be able to differ but be careful about how you do it and about (possibly) looking like a (disrespectful) fool.
How dare they question the knowledge of the Jedi? But all jokes aside, you and Devon both had good points, and having an open discussion about contraversial topics is essential! Thank you for taking on this responsibility, and please don't mind the idiot trolls :) 💪Cheers from Hungary!
The more popular something becomes the more shittier it gets. Full of masters of the sport everywhere, legends etc. Janis nailing it as usual. Hats off to this man.
@@lordmizan4976 how did he nail it? The “fully straight arm both guys hanging under the table” has already been made illegal in pro leagues so it’s not even a thing anymore. Under the table kingsmove is banned. What’s the complaint?
The actual thing is Devon is not in this context, he is just debating about it ..Michel is the one who is doing this shitty straight arm move, Devon rarely does this because it may not be required for him to be in this move 95% of time because he is that strong , and whenever he tries to do that he gets a foul, so its michel you need to mention here, since then under the table/inclined humerus elbow is banned, he is started using the straight arm thing...and now he is sitting silent and the entire world is cheering for him.. Devon talks for him and gets all the hate ..
Can people just Stop complaining and Learn how to beat kings move! It's not easy but possible! We use bonelock in arm wrestling all the time nothing new!
How do you feel about the person in winning position, hanging off the table? The person in losing position is using muscle and tendon, whereas the person in winning position is using body weight and gravity. That does not seem fair either. What about the person who is using the press, where they do not have full range of motion. (their hand cannot reach their shoulder, due to either larger biceps, or elbow flexion limitations) Are they not resting? (using their upper body mass) Is this fair to the person on the defensive side that is using their biceps to fight against the weight of the other?
If youre really in a fully extended position (bone lock or not) and your opponent is able to apply force at a vector that effectively generates torque on the joint (perpendicular to the forearm lever) then the arm will either break or the arm wrestler will be forced to give up to avoid an injury. The reason king's move is hard to pin isn't because theres a bone lock, but because they swing their arm way out of the way making it basically impossible to apply the perpendicular force on the joint. The elbow extension bonelock can easily be pushed through with downward pressure if you can get on top of it. In KOTT1 Devon vs Michael, Devon was able to pin Michael in one of the rounds with pure side pressure and Devon is definitely not known for his side pressure. The reason he was able to do it was because he was able to apply it downwards, into Michael's arm who wasnt able to escape through his hand. If we want to talk about bone locks for king's moves then the supination lock that Michael Todd and Gashevksy have are far more relevant than the elbow extension bonelock. But it's also even harder to make rules for. The supination lock allows arm wrestlers to use internal shoulder rotation in place of pronation against their opponent's wrist. And your opponent's cupping strength is not going to be able to threaten an injury to your supination bonelock the way that a press can threaten an injury to your elbow extension bonelock, so they can't force you to give up by applying more force.
This debate is so great. In every major sport there are discussions. This is so important cause it helps to keep conversation over the sport itself. Just dont descredit janis.he is such a good guy.
I agree with Janis. But isn't cheating rife in Arm wrestling? It is fundamentally not a fair sport. From this matter of straight arm to the opponent cheating in the setup, to refs to steroids. Where ever there may be a crack in the rules a competitor with use that to their advantage.
Shouldder above the taable and there isn't a problem in my opinion. It gets ugly and should be banned in positions that Devon and Michael Todd get into when they fall into the kingsmove...
I think he sees it an unfair advantage because of the lack of exertion by the kings mover compared to the level of exertion needed to beat it. Not because it's unbeatable.
@utewbd ,that's the misconception with the move. Janis thinks king's movers are taking a break down there while in reality they are in desperation mode/move and they are vulnerable. The guy facing the king's mover just needs to use Janis' method to get around it, apparently he's never lost to it, 0:37
"unfair advantage". Watch his other videos for context. This is similar to the case in BJJ competitions where the champion drags his ass because he can't do a takedown. Pulling on guard since beginning is not against rules but people didn't like it because of unfair advantage. Now it is given as a foul. It can be beaten but it is an unfair advantage and looks bad.
@@utewbd thats the point of the move, its a defensive move designed to tire out your opponent, what you should do when you cant pin a kings mover is just relax a little, maybe go back closer to center, and climb. If you cant pin them with the higher hand youre just not strong enough to beat them
Can't argue with Devon fanboys. It doesn't matter if you armwrestle 30 yrs, are multiple world champion, have a background in medical/physical field and is working as a therapist. Explaining it scientific way also doesn't help. It's sad to be honest...
Lots of the fans have amnesia of the move and merely want to obey Devon's agendas. Attempting to make the debate meaningless is a basic approach. Remember, Devon's fans had extreme hate of the kings move in 2018 when Michael Todd defeated him. Devon spent years politically pushing for acceptance of the move, while he has been training it religiously. It's amazing how much armwrestling is controlled by agenda these days.
I don't think you're getting the other side. What Janis said about Kings move biomechanically may be true, but what he says about how it's giving unfair advantage is where most people disagree. It's no more unfair than multitude of other moves allowed under the current ruleset. That's why Devon said it's a slippery slope - banning one thing leads to banning multiple things
Janis you are such a great guy, don't bother. it's against the rules to go under the table, so it's already covered no? We understand what you mean, but don't die on your sword, be smart, be the Jedi, be water my friend
Just be better, no need any changes. Just be better at more areas, not just one and problem solved. You can't really be at the world level top 10 and have just 1 lane, so then it's your problem if you can't win.
So it’s fair a guy is straight arm using it as a lever. The much stronger man gets tired out by trying to break the opponent’s arm. I pray Engin gets rid of this move.
@@Justinsox39you are wrong if that's the only way, somehow Genadi won 1st time against MT, Devon won, John won again MK even when shoulder was allowed under the table. Even Janis said he won against a lot kings movers. Just you can't rush with kings mover and work smart and have strong hand. Same goes to other styles, in some styles you don't need strong hand, but strong arm, in some strong back pressure. If therr would be no way to beat it I would agree with you, but there is.
@ well obviously it’s beatable. Levan would beat me if i used two hands does that make it fair? The kings is a joke. How is Genadi going to pin Todd that last match. He was up on the table pushing as far as possible. Todd just sitting there very comfortable while Genadi gasses. It’s an absolute joke. There is zero honor winning like that. I don’t count those as wins at all
@@Justinsox39 I don't get your point. If MMT was using a defensive side pressure instead and let's say Genadi couldn't drive through the defensive side pressure, that means MMT won without honor? Or does your argument only applies to kings move? Sounds pretty discriminatory towards 1 particular move and not the other defensive move
@4:10 well don’t lose your wrist. Just as in any move. A lot happens between go and someone getting to the point of losing their wrist and being in a flop press.
@ when he was saying that someone in a flop press with their wrist bent back doesn’t have any options to get their wrist back. Probably just before 4:10
Yah it's quite odd that Janis even bring this point up. He said if you made a mistake of going into flop press, you will never be able to turn the pronation of the kings mover. Well, that's precisely because you made the mistake of flop pressing down the kings mover lane 😅 Janis, you can't serious use this scenario to describe the fairness or lack thereof of kings move
Good video. Don't understand the comments about being salty. I also had limited ROM in my elbow from arm wrestling and i could for example hang on one arm in end range (150 degrees) with 260 lbs BW, no way I could hang like that for a long time with full flexibility in my elbow. I am amazed that people argue IF having limited elbow extension ROM is a good or bad thing when discussing kings move ability.
The debate was helpful to see both sides and think through things more, thanks for sharing your honest thoughts Janis. Thinking through it more I'm leaning on the side of pro-kings move, I appreciate the debate though ❤
If you ban straight arm joint lock you need to also ban flop press wrist lock. The reason its fair is because everyone is allowed to do these advantages moves. Or just pin their hand.
Janis, your opinion is unpopular, you lost the debate, 95% of the comments were criticism towards YOU and YOUR points in the comment section, it's not trolls understand that you are wrong and your obsession with becoming an arm wrestling police officer is ridiculous, stop policing this great sport leave it alone, no one appreciates your tyrannical intents, like it or not the most watched arm wrestling matches on youtube have the kingsmove, your paranoia is an enemy of armwrestling
I agree 100% even though I am considered a "king's mover" by some. Adding in the shoulder rotation is only possible as the arm becomes straight and doing it even once can wreck the opponents wrist for the rest of the match. A subtle but good example was in a recent match between Artem and Max where, when Max was close to pinning, Artem quickly straightened out his arm to increase his pronation(by adding shoulder rotation) to avoid the pin. Max was smart and strong enough to eventually overcome it but had his wrist been truly cracked it likely wouldn't have recovered for the rest of the match and Artem would have then had the advantage for the remaining rounds. In some ways it makes me think that making a rule against using shoulder rotation might a better way to regulate it? The match in my example is still in a PPV but I can post it once the match goes to youtube.
@@Chris_Ireland Sure. That's normal pronation. Once you straighten your arm you rotate your arm roughly 90-degrees further. Try it. It makes a big difference.
Exactly. In that movement you don't need muscles at all. Just hope that your bones don't break and rotate your whole arm. The force needed to break a bone is much more than what someone can wrist curl.
@@Dmgolfer22 still an issue if you cracked their wrist that way while getting pinned in a super match where there are still rounds to go before the match is completed. If the winner's wrist got cracked just to get the pin in the first round they might now lose all the following rounds because of it. And in a tournament setting that puller might have the rest of his/her day ruined as well.
I’m not an expert but I’m seeing people like Neil Pickup say Devon understands kings move far more than even him and all the subtleties of it. So clearly Janis doesn’t understand very much at all. He also doesn’t understand that arm wrestling is as much a tactical gambit sport as it is a strength sport
Absolute legend! Thank you Janis for speaking FACTS and not caving in to Devon’s popularity and mindless trolls. You nailed your argument. We all saw Devon rotating with his arm inward when Levan fully outstretched his arm. It is just silly to not foul someone at that point.
@@r.a.fiallos234 the declined humerus is what made the extended ‘outstretched’ arm possible. If not for the declined humerus, he would have been pinned And elbow pivoting to the side is not a foul. The elbow pivots to the side when pinning as well. In WAF rules You can even have the the elbow not in contact with the elbow pad as long as it’s above the perimeter of the pad while the back of your upper arm is in contact with the pad. So this “elbow to the side” is not a foul.
@ thanks for clarifying. It’s the fully outstretched arm and playing the angles under the table to get away from the pin pad that gets me the most. I just hope it never gets made legal again.
At the end of the day, it is opinion on if it is fair or not. I respect your opinion and experience as an armwrestler and physical therapist. The big problem is how to make sure any rule changes wouldn't affect the rest of the sport, and I'd rather we have things as they are than risk taking away too much flexibility just to avoid a very very rare few kings movers winning.
Wow, this went from zero to 100 QUICKLY! This video holds nothing back. I mostly lean to the voices on this channel. I am only new in this a a hobby puller, but personally I prefer more traditional styles. It would take me a few years to get any horse in the race.
I think the key point here is that anyone using the floppers wrist will be at a major disadvantage against a locked in Kingsmover, who can just lay back, let the the other guy burn out, and then take back control. The Kingsmover is then resting 1cm away from the pad, while the flop presser is burning himself out. Unfair? I think so, yeah. Devon will say that: "Haha, he fell into the trap, he lost his wrist!". But, the flop presser is still using his muscles and energy to fight, the Kingsmover is not. Is that good armwrestling?
I really dislike devon, but I kings move often and I have a hyperflexible elbow, so no where near being able to even use a bonelock, and I still beat all the low table iq “always hook” roided up fanatics who doesn’t dare to use even 20 of their 70 iq on armwrestling. Janis doesn’t once talk about the actual mechanics of the kingsmove or hov to get there, he literally only talks about the bonelock. Tell me how I can do it with a hyperflexible arm if you’re not one of those “smooth brains”
Legit i've never seen d4mber fan girls in any sport than armwrestling (kinda expected since 99% of them are redn3cks and indians) They make 2 IQ Conor fangirls look like geniuses
The issue isn't whether it's bone lock or not. The issue is, is it any more of an advantage than any other technique born out of natural attributes or lack there of. Is the kings move the answer to winning matches? No.... if it was everybody would be doing it. The fact is many try it and lose, so the reality is only some can use the technique successfully... you know what that sounds like? Every other technique in arm wrestling..... that's why not every armwrestler is proficient in every technique, because you have to have attributes that lend themselves towards that technique... so it's no different, just maybe looks less pretty, but it's not less fair🤷🏼♂️
I think the parallel you made with wrestlers was spot on. If you weight over 120kg you can't compete, wrestling at 160kg would be absurd. Same in armwrestling, if you have a 90 degree disabled arm you cant compete because it's unfair to have an armbar and not the point of armwrestling. So I agree, straight arm foul rule should be implemented, referees should measure where the athletes arm stop straightening before the match and foul the athlete during the match if the arm goes in end of motion.
My take: a rule for losing a match due to being at the end of the tange of motion should only be put into effect if/when the upper echelon of armwrestling is clearly dominated by kings movers. At this point in time the kings move matches are not the upper echelon, so they are not taking away from stronger athletes at all.
It‘s that time of the year again, when the discussion for kings move starts. It is just a move, get over it and learn to beat it. I also don‘t like it but it exists and since the shoulder is above the table is legal. These guys cannot armwrestle out of the box, so rigid my god!
The question is how to rule "against the Kings move" but agree. No one except prob Devon wants to see two guy hang under the table for 30 min until one guy gives up. That will for sure ruin the spectator side of armwrestling.
I think the kings move should be allowed in winning or losing position. My motto is this prectice more and find away around it. Only a few cry that cant technically deal with it. Remember practice makes perfect. There is a way around any problem in life. One just has to search hard enough. 😊 Do not be butt hurt because you may not be able to defeat it. Work harder practice harder. Where there is a will there is a way 😊 Practice to be shotgun fast off the line. Practice a fast whicked press there is ways.
You’re argument Illogical, if the kings move was so broken then why doesn’t everyone use it? Both Michael and Devon have been pinned. What you have is a skill issue.
📚 ARMWRESTLING ACADEMY COURSE armwrestling-academy.com
Sounds like someone had some extra salt on their supper ❤️👑🚶♂️
Come hang out in ontario. Even our juniors know this move in better detail ;)
Krazy George vs Janis. Set it up😂
Greatest fraud of all time
Waiting for your first EvW/KoTT match where you don't start on the good side of the strap ;)
Devon, Big fan here. I only buy PPV because of you and i will always support you. But Michael Todds elbow lock position is a terrible thing to watch. Your King's move is amazing. Michael Todd is just disgrace to the evolution of AW the way he uses his kings move. The bone lock was unbearably bad to watch against Genadi and i would like to never see it ever again. Hope ermes breaks it. Nothing personal to michael but genadi was winning that match without elbow lock BS.
Greatest fraud of all time
I think u forgot that even fenis ceplycov also used kings move.
Yes but it’s Denis so nobody wants to say anything, he used it in his prime also and Devon didn’t
If The shoulder is above The table, There is no Problem..
Fenis ceplycov 😂
@@SoloCristoSalva3 Point of the elbow still on the pad, not side of the elbow joint..
It’s not as nearly as bad as Todd or Devon
I don’t know why you keep exposing yourselves to criticism on this topic. Love or hate the Kings move, Devon is right. There are all kinds of “limitations,” “mobility issues,” and “genetic defects,” that could be deemed advantages that you’d have to police in all kinds of positions, not just the kings. It’s a slippery slope. What’s the plan for that?
Or course theres a multitude of mobility issues that can arise. But it is beyond obvious rhat the one the most beneficial to armwrestling is being able to effectively have an elbow bonelock while still having a parallel humerus. This is the pinnacle of « mobility issues ». We need to find a ruling against a straight elbow that allows someone toneffectively rest his flexors while exhausting his opponent. When you straighten ones arm in armwrestling, you should win.
One way would be adjustable pin pads for elite armwrestlers : you rest the arm on the table and ask the athlete to fully extend (which they will do because it’s at their advantage) and adjust the pin pas as to make it touch the ulna. That way the « mobility issues » of every arhlete is taken in consideration.
You can increase the pin pad height.
Devon is totally wrong, u are blind if u think otherwise, he hides himself and his shit move behind people with limitations - that's pathetic
No no Devin is inherently wrong just because he begins with logical fallacies to 'prove' his point😂
He wouldn't need to do all this antics and bs drama and bulshit if he was right😂
Man I had thought about that but that's a perfect way to make sure that they don't deliberately not straighten their arm out of the way when you're measuring.
That way they will want to open the arm as much as physically possible so that the pad they have will not be higher but lower❤@louisolivierfortin
Armwrestling, like MMA, includes various styles of fighting. In MMA, fighters can choose specific styles like jiu-jitsu or taekwondo, each with unique strategies. For example, jiu-jitsu focuses on fighting on the ground. The kingsmove in armwrestling is similar-it’s a unique technique, akin to fighting on the ground in jiu-jitsu. Saying the kingsmove should be illegal is like saying ground fighting in jiu-jitsu should be banned.
All fighters leverage their strengths to gain an edge. For instance, if a boxer has a natural advantage, like unusually large knuckles, and uses it to deliver powerful knockouts, it wouldn’t be considered illegal. Similarly, armwrestlers should be allowed to use their natural or developed advantages, like the kingsmove.
The Kingsmove is Beatable:
The kingsmove is not an unbeatable technique. Michael Todd, known for his kingsmove, faced a long losing streak that lasted nearly a year. If the kingsmove or its bone lock were an unfair advantage, he wouldn’t have struggled for so long. Todd had to improve his fundamental strength to compete and win again, proving that the technique alone isn’t enough to guarantee victory.
It is certainly not akin to fighting on the ground in jujitsu😂😂
the question is, what should be the arm extension angle limit ?? 90°, 135°, 160°, 170° 175°, 178°, 179°, 180° ?? that's the real problem, as the arm extends more and more you gain more and more leverage. Both fighters are allowed to do the King's move, and both fighters can choose to fight in that position or not, if you are being "drained" by a king's mover, just get out of that position, go back to the center!
Under the table is already illegal and you can beat the move apparently. So what's the problem?
The problem is Europeans like to cry
The problem is Devon sheeps.
you have missed the point completely. Devon fan?
Why dont we ban the flop wrist defence as well? It uses more nastier bone lock then straight arm, and it has more chances of injury... just saying
in poker 2 aces in hand (strongest possible cards u can have) win only 33% rounds - so yeah, they are beatable.
But it doesn;t fin mean u should start with double aces every single round because of that.
Do u have brain? Do you understand the odds/chances/advantages of something vs something, when compared objectively in terms of their strenghts?
I really don’t see the problem if they keep their shoulders above the table, the fact it’s beatable shows it’s not necessarily a cheat code but a tough move to counter. That however can be said about any move depending on who’s claiming what. This just seems a witch hunt for MMT esp, but also Devon……
The only problem above the table I see is the kings mover leveraging his forearm off the edge of the pad, using the table to absorb the finishing pressure. Ryan Bowen, MMT and Larratt do this all the time. It was key for Ryan to stop Schoolboy. It was key for MMT to defeat Larratt in 2018.
Also, Devon gets his fanbase to witch hunt athletes several times per year. So who cares?
@ and what if it does leverage his forearm as you claim? It’s a natural advantage …..AW has things like risers for short people but tall people need to deal with the opposite problem, these are the kind of things that need talked about in terms of certain people gaining advantages …..as for the KM well, Again, as long as the shoulders above the table then it’s within the rules……
@ I'm not sure if you see what I'm trying to point at, and it is a little hard to articulate.
Imagine bringing the edge of a 2x4 off of the side of a table, such that the board is set into a lever --- forcing a minimum angle greater than 0* relative to the table top. As you apply force to the levitated end of the 2x4, it receives resistance from this lever. The resistance comes from the table and is translated into the board.
Back to armwrestling, we have the shoulder-dipping rule for the kings move which prevents exactly this for the upper arm, but not the forearm. The cushion of the pad alleviates sheer force from the forearm too.
Consequently, this seems to turn the riser into a brick wall. So the opponent is forced to lose his wrist in order to finish the pin. Devon exploits this whenever his kings move begins to fails, and it drastically drains the opponent. It makes the opponent suddenly have to PR against the direct resistance of his own strength generated by the lever through the table.
Does this make sense?
@ For the scenario I describe, it is on the boundary of an elbow foul. I propose that when the elbow foul occurs, it is considered a losing position loss.
Resting on a bone is not arm wrestling. It's a loss.
Devon himself says that he puts you so high as an armwrestler and respect u so much. But he was disappointed with you
The king's move is completely fair, it has strengths and weaknesses
Very simple janis, if you want to prove it's wrong, go use this straight arm in your next match and show it's unbeatable.
Everyone has seen it beat already. He said it's beatable, he said he never lost to king's move, idk if that means he never had to deal with it or what. The problem with his argument is the way he describes it is already illegal. So I don't get his point
@miketurner1908 it doesn't make sense because the only way to straight arm with humerus above the table is by literally being on the pin pad. We all agree humerus below the table is cheating but if we have to make a specific rule for 1 or 2 guys who happens to have deformed arms slightly angled and can't straighten out, then Goodluck having refs having to make that judgement call mid match of when he is or isn't completely straight armed...
@@bsstyle123Look at michael todd’s face in his match against genadi. At some point you can see a complete relaxation during his bonelock position while genadi was exhausting himself. It can’t be more obvious, his biceps/brachialis were chilling. Also he doesnt have normal elbow range of motion so even with level humerus he’s not getting pinned. That’s where it gets tricky and that’s why we must find ways to create ruling against that.
@louisolivierfortin LOL you can't be serious if your proof is "just look at MMT's face". Why don't you look at MMT's face when he faced Jerry? Is that a face of a man who is relaxing like he's on a vacation in Cancun?
@@CossyMango todd was absolutely chilling at some point. Did you watch the same match I did?
Justin Bishop has a great suggestion on how to enforce the rules.
Just raise the pin pads...
In short what did he say?
@@MelbourneMasterIIRC Justin said that the shoulder has to be above or parallel to the elbow pad, as soon as it goes under during a Kings move it is a foul.
@@MelbourneMaster Refs should make sure the bottom of the shoulder doesn't go below the elbow pad, that will more consistently make sure people aren't resting on their triceps to gain height.
@@utewbd These guys can still sit on their tricep with their shoulder parallel, infact they also love to shrug a bit to get away with more.
The arm angle due to bonelock is the most important part
I see press as a much stronger deadlock.
Why don't you talk about banning the press
Explain mechanics how press is deadlock and why there is problem with press?
@@ForceRXit's clear that you're resting your forearm against bicep. And pretty much using your body weight to pin the opponent. It's all elbow joint and very less use of tricep.
@@yuvrajsingh9138 this.
Using body weight has always been part of arm wrestling. So what.
@@yuvrajsingh9138 Yes, one direction is locked but position is quite weak to resist sideways movement. When opponent pulls towards him opening your shoulder line.
i think shoulder below pad is enough , even im a armwrestling noob only watching videos. I agreed with Devon's arguments too
Man, fuck the haters. You did a great job in that discussion.
NEVER let idiots get into your head!!! Promise that!
why are we catering so much to flop pressers. Only a flop presser should worry that much about a kings move but in my opinion the flop press is just as much of a desperation move as a kingsmove. It also relies on bone locks and frame, its equally ugly of a move.
no its not
@@osba70 excellent argument
We just saw how u can flashpin floppers as demonstrated by Levan and Ermes.
Atleast in flop press ur arm angle stays tight compared to L shtsmove where ur arm is completely stretched open and Devon/MT are hanging desperately on their bonelock
@@astwasit’s pointless talking to Devononlyfans. It’s funny many of these people hated Michael Todd for beating Devon with that Kings years back. I hated it then as well and i hate it now.
Stop scapegoating the flop press to rescue this shit move. Shoulder-based rules have been enforced on the press for decades. The same must be done for the kings move.
Most all pullers were against this move until Devon said it was ok
I think they just gave up! Arguing with Devon publicly never goes well for them.😅
@@theunknownsamurai7426 bhaha that might be the case they have all tried loooool
@1:00 well with the current humerus rule this isn’t even an issue….and when Devon used the term “arm bar” he’s referring to the MMA submission move. When someone is in an “arm bar” they’re in a lot of pain and forced to submit. So what he was saying that if someone is in an arm bar they can’t remain there. But regardless in KOT or EVW this “hanging under the table with straight arm” isn’t an issue.
seems like he thought Devon was saying "ya my arm is is just a metal bar in this position hehe"
....an “arm bar” in MMA is NOT comparable in this scenario: in that situation, the opponents hip acts as a fulcrum on the elbow and causes the elbow to bend ‘backwards’ beyond 180 degrees, and this is why it forces a submission / you can’t stay there, the opponent is thrusting his hips upwards into your elbow
Now I’m not saying I’m definitely against the kings move, but it’s not directly comparable to an armbar in MMA , the opponent isn’t directly using part of his body to hyperextend your elbow
@ Janis is using the term “arm bar” to describe the kingsmove. Im pointing out that it’s not comparable. If someone is in an arm bar they submit due to pain. Janis is using the term saying that a person can use an “arm bar” position in a kingsmove to an advantage. That’s not possible. If someone is feeling pressure similar to an “arm bar” (hyper extension) it is very painful and not a position you can hold comfortably. So yeah it’s not a good comparison or term to use.
@ ah okay I see, understand where you’re coming from. And ya Janis shouldn’t really use that term specifically cause it’s really not the same thing
Although with the table being in the way, the arm can’t be hyperextended to the same degree....but still I think it’s missing the entire point; the kingsmove / armbar position (if you wanna call it that) is not “unbeatable”, it’s been proven beatable many times by many different guys
Janis, why were you not speaking of it so loudly while Michael Todd was not at such peak form?
"Two guys or two girls hanging with two straight arms under the table is not such bright future for the sport" - sounds so liberal - i can barely making myself listen to it. Moreover, how many matches were taken like this?? Almost NONE! As a professional you have to be prepared for any move your opponent has to offer, not to cry over it - don't you agree?
I do hope that this overreaction to kingsmove from certain armwrestlers will just be forgotten soon enough, otherwise, as Devon said, this will not be limited by kingsmove talk - you may just start to measure people arms and do not match a tall armwrestler with a short one - isn't it the same "cheating"?)))
Are you dumb?
Because hes a hypocrite
@@ne-vri and that example of two guys hanging under the table is now illegal in most leagues and effectively banned in pro leagues so it’s not even an issue
Idk what Janis talking about😂
Even he doesn't know 😂😂😂
Cvetan Gashevski Vs Janis Amolins.
Make it happen, see if Janis can keep his perfect record vs kingsmove.
Let's just armwrestle
Janis seriously stop, I like you but stop, your debate with Devon was unwatchable, surprised Devon had any patience left
Bs. The Debatte was good. You could not watch it because you could not stand Devon get out argumeted
Devon had nothing for Janis in the debate. Janis presented real facts and logic, and used examples. Devon's response was: Why isn't that 70-year-old world champion? Lmao🤡
@@Ja_ist_gut quit making stuff up
It amazes me how many people fail to realize that a straight arm without a declined humerus is a parallel pin.
Very salty video
No, that's just the taste Devon left in your mouth... Keep sucking..
He knows he got destroyed.! He doesn’t have a legitimate argument
Why are u ghe?
salty fangirls crying in every video because any one with more than 2 brain cells wants that L move out of the sport.
No that's just the taste Devon left in your mouth..
Fully extended arm is no more in a fight.
Yeah... I mean it's not armwrestling whatever it is lol
@@AudriusDir well with a fully straight arm and shoulder above the table, you will be pinned. So no issue.
Larrat fanboys don't want the rules to change it would make larratt irrelevant lol
Why arent you complaining about press, that is a bonelock too
Press in an offensive move, absolutely not comparable to an elbow bonelock on the losing side.
@louisolivierfortin Not solely offensive, as we saw in the matches between MMT and Jerry Cadorette. Both guys just sat on their structure.
I hate Camil padlonski
@louisolivierfortin Wanna talk about Jerry and Kamil?
@louisolivierfortinthis does not make any sense, it's literally the same lol
The main difference between the press and the Kingsmove comes down to how they use strength and technique during a match:
With the press, you need strong shoulders and triceps to take control of the center and finish the match. However, if your arm opens up during the match, it becomes almost impossible to hold your position, and you’ll most likely lose. A hook, which is based on biceps and side pressure, can easily beat a presser by overpowering their arm and taking control. The press depends heavily on muscle strength, making it easier to counter with the right move.
The Kingsmove, on the other hand, works by fully stretching the arm near the edge of the pad. In this position, it is very hard for the opponent to finish unless they can take your wrist. Unlike the press, the Kingsmove doesn’t rely much on muscle power like side pressure or biceps strength. Instead, it uses body positioning and takes advantage of bones, joints, ligaments, and tendons.
Giving up the wrist at the start can even be part of the strategy, as it helps with pronation (turning the hand to control the opponent’s wrist). The Kingsmove is about using angles and body mechanics, and there is no direct counter to it. To stop it, the opponent must have enough strength, hand control, and leverage to completely shut it down. Without a long lever (long arms) or strong hand control, it’s incredibly hard to beat the Kingsmove, even if you are stronger.
For example, if a hooker (inside puller) is stronger than a Kingsmover but still can’t pin them, it feels unfair. This is what Janis is pointing out - the Kingsmove makes raw strength less important by focusing on body mechanics instead.
It is hilarious that the same ppl who cried about the kings move when MMT used it are now defending it just because they are Devon fangirls.
You can't get through to these females with reason, they only think based on emotion. They will always agree with whatever Devon says.
Man shut up!
Youre 100% right, pronation and hand control are way too beautyful to ruin it with an open angle, straight arm should be a fault for the beauty of this sport.
Come on man you gotta let it go, it’s getting ridiculous
It's just another technique. Devon and Genadi showcased how to beat it. You just need to be ready for it! For me a nastier technique is flop wrist defence - it can easily get you stuck such that you don't even know what to do next - you can't go sideways (unless you are much stronger), and you can't go back because either you'll get pressed, or there's no more space left. With the king's move you at least have an option to re-grip, control the center, climb, throw in the shoulder, etc...
Its not that he cant beat it, but his point is that if armwrestling comes to the 2 best in the world being kingsmovers it will be boring to watch and will escentially be about who has a better bone lock
The flop is easily beatable you are just either ignorant, too weak or both
The "just beat it" answer like that, and from Devon is absurd. The requirement for something to be considered cheating is not that it has to be unbeatable, its that you get an unfair advantage. This argument is like asking a boxer to ignore the opponent continually low punching him in the balls because the ref wont call it 🤷♂️
I saw Larratt vs Todd latest match. Two total kingsmovers and it was not boring at all. Just saying.
Did you really call a "flop wrist" defense as the most trickiest? 😂
You have total hand dominance and can't beat someone's bicep? Then you're just weak my brother. If someone can simply bicep curl your max strength then you need to get stronger.
See how Irakli defended against John. Flop wrist defense. He was just too damn strong for even John. In that position, you have all the advantages.
Yes i agree!! Also ban the hook, top roll, flop wrist press and just make the arm move to the side as we did in school when we were younger!! Right?
And no back pressure!!
And if your opponent has ever used kings move then they automatically start the match 1 point down.
Average 2 IQ Devon fangirl argument. U seem very emotional right now
@@astwas What's your argument then?
Totally agree... its not arm-wrestling when the arm is straight out with the forearm locked on the pad. 👍👍
Janis,
A lesson on being a high level human and leader…
Stop throwing out how long you’ve done something. It doesn’t make your argument anymore compelling. “I’ve worked on patients for 20 years, I’ve arm wrestled for 30 years.” You know you are losing a debate when you start doing this. Stay humble, drop your ego, and level up as a man. Good luck
Most debates are not won with facts, but everything Janis said about kings moves is anatomically and scientifically
What a bunch of nonsense. You level up as a man lol
He just gave more facts about arm wrestling in just few minutes than Devon has ever given about king's move...
When thousands of fanboy sheeps, who never touched an armwrestling table, tries and talk how Janis is a nobody in armwrestling, he is not allowed to say this? And you somehow talk about being a man? Trying to sound hardcore and all that. 😆
If kings move relies on a bone lock then flop wrist does as well, as getting your shoulder in "testing your frame" in defending against a stronger opponent does. All 3 scenarios present a case where the defender has "lost" either their bicep, wrist, or center table. Should that defender lose? Logic is fun. I like where this is going. A "pure" sport 🫳😂
But Janis won't respond to this.
Those that "need" these clarifications cannot or will not hear them.
Trolls will troll.
The Last Jedi is Eminently Qualified to speak on the matter.
You might be able to differ but be careful about how you do it and about (possibly) looking like a (disrespectful) fool.
I kind of agree, but how do you enforce such a rule? I think the difficulty comes in objective enforcement.
Dont worry about it. Your point is very convincing, there will always be fanboys crying about facts :).
I thought you made great analogies. You are never going to overcome the cringey devon fanboys on youtube
Could you fuze a metal bar in your arm to hold your position and never be pinned? 😂
Is that MT's 'divine intervention' lol...
How dare they question the knowledge of the Jedi? But all jokes aside, you and Devon both had good points, and having an open discussion about contraversial topics is essential! Thank you for taking on this responsibility, and please don't mind the idiot trolls :) 💪Cheers from Hungary!
Seconded from, Canada. It was a good discussion.
The more popular something becomes the more shittier it gets. Full of masters of the sport everywhere, legends etc. Janis nailing it as usual. Hats off to this man.
Shows how shit culture is today
@@lordmizan4976 how did he nail it? The “fully straight arm both guys hanging under the table” has already been made illegal in pro leagues so it’s not even a thing anymore. Under the table kingsmove is banned. What’s the complaint?
The actual thing is Devon is not in this context, he is just debating about it ..Michel is the one who is doing this shitty straight arm move, Devon rarely does this because it may not be required for him to be in this move 95% of time because he is that strong , and whenever he tries to do that he gets a foul, so its michel you need to mention here, since then under the table/inclined humerus elbow is banned, he is started using the straight arm thing...and now he is sitting silent and the entire world is cheering for him.. Devon talks for him and gets all the hate ..
Can people just Stop complaining and Learn how to beat kings move! It's not easy but possible! We use bonelock in arm wrestling all the time nothing new!
The fact that Janis Amolins has to defend his arm wrestling understanding and knowledge is hilarious.
Janis is 100% correct. Thanks for staying true to the sport, Sir!
How do you feel about the person in winning position, hanging off the table? The person in losing position is using muscle and tendon, whereas the person in winning position is using body weight and gravity. That does not seem fair either. What about the person who is using the press, where they do not have full range of motion. (their hand cannot reach their shoulder, due to either larger biceps, or elbow flexion limitations) Are they not resting? (using their upper body mass) Is this fair to the person on the defensive side that is using their biceps to fight against the weight of the other?
There's only 1 or Two people doing this move. There too weak too compete is why.
how about making the pin pad 0.5 cm higher then?
If youre really in a fully extended position (bone lock or not) and your opponent is able to apply force at a vector that effectively generates torque on the joint (perpendicular to the forearm lever) then the arm will either break or the arm wrestler will be forced to give up to avoid an injury.
The reason king's move is hard to pin isn't because theres a bone lock, but because they swing their arm way out of the way making it basically impossible to apply the perpendicular force on the joint.
The elbow extension bonelock can easily be pushed through with downward pressure if you can get on top of it. In KOTT1 Devon vs Michael, Devon was able to pin Michael in one of the rounds with pure side pressure and Devon is definitely not known for his side pressure. The reason he was able to do it was because he was able to apply it downwards, into Michael's arm who wasnt able to escape through his hand.
If we want to talk about bone locks for king's moves then the supination lock that Michael Todd and Gashevksy have are far more relevant than the elbow extension bonelock. But it's also even harder to make rules for.
The supination lock allows arm wrestlers to use internal shoulder rotation in place of pronation against their opponent's wrist. And your opponent's cupping strength is not going to be able to threaten an injury to your supination bonelock the way that a press can threaten an injury to your elbow extension bonelock, so they can't force you to give up by applying more force.
Wall, door, wall, door, wall, door, I'm out
This debate is so great. In every major sport there are discussions. This is so important cause it helps to keep conversation over the sport itself. Just dont descredit janis.he is such a good guy.
I agree with Janis. But isn't cheating rife in Arm wrestling? It is fundamentally not a fair sport. From this matter of straight arm to the opponent cheating in the setup, to refs to steroids. Where ever there may be a crack in the rules a competitor with use that to their advantage.
I fully agree with Janis's discerning & logical critique of the so called kings move.
Shouldder above the taable and there isn't a problem in my opinion. It gets ugly and should be banned in positions that Devon and Michael Todd get into when they fall into the kingsmove...
0:37 Then why the criticism against the king's move if it's that beatable?
I think he sees it an unfair advantage because of the lack of exertion by the kings mover compared to the level of exertion needed to beat it. Not because it's unbeatable.
Bcs it looks like shit
@utewbd ,that's the misconception with the move. Janis thinks king's movers are taking a break down there while in reality they are in desperation mode/move and they are vulnerable. The guy facing the king's mover just needs to use Janis' method to get around it, apparently he's never lost to it, 0:37
"unfair advantage". Watch his other videos for context.
This is similar to the case in BJJ competitions where the champion drags his ass because he can't do a takedown. Pulling on guard since beginning is not against rules but people didn't like it because of unfair advantage. Now it is given as a foul. It can be beaten but it is an unfair advantage and looks bad.
@@utewbd thats the point of the move, its a defensive move designed to tire out your opponent, what you should do when you cant pin a kings mover is just relax a little, maybe go back closer to center, and climb. If you cant pin them with the higher hand youre just not strong enough to beat them
What about flop wrist press … its also bone lock
You have obviously never armwrestled in your entire life or you would make such a dumb remark
Can't argue with Devon fanboys. It doesn't matter if you armwrestle 30 yrs, are multiple world champion, have a background in medical/physical field and is working as a therapist. Explaining it scientific way also doesn't help. It's sad to be honest...
Agree
Like MAGA cult ; you don't reason with them, you just learn to ignore their existence.
So you're saying neil pickup's video on the kingsmove is 30 minutes of false information? 😂
Lots of the fans have amnesia of the move and merely want to obey Devon's agendas. Attempting to make the debate meaningless is a basic approach.
Remember, Devon's fans had extreme hate of the kings move in 2018 when Michael Todd defeated him. Devon spent years politically pushing for acceptance of the move, while he has been training it religiously.
It's amazing how much armwrestling is controlled by agenda these days.
I don't think you're getting the other side. What Janis said about Kings move biomechanically may be true, but what he says about how it's giving unfair advantage is where most people disagree. It's no more unfair than multitude of other moves allowed under the current ruleset. That's why Devon said it's a slippery slope - banning one thing leads to banning multiple things
Janis you are such a great guy, don't bother. it's against the rules to go under the table, so it's already covered no?
We understand what you mean, but don't die on your sword, be smart, be the Jedi, be water my friend
This is a great example of how you never stop learning, even when you are a master.
Devon fangirls raiding the comments again.
Just be better, no need any changes.
Just be better at more areas, not just one and problem solved.
You can't really be at the world level top 10 and have just 1 lane, so then it's your problem if you can't win.
So it’s fair a guy is straight arm using it as a lever. The much stronger man gets tired out by trying to break the opponent’s arm. I pray Engin gets rid of this move.
@@Justinsox39you are wrong if that's the only way, somehow Genadi won 1st time against MT, Devon won, John won again MK even when shoulder was allowed under the table.
Even Janis said he won against a lot kings movers.
Just you can't rush with kings mover and work smart and have strong hand.
Same goes to other styles, in some styles you don't need strong hand, but strong arm, in some strong back pressure.
If therr would be no way to beat it I would agree with you, but there is.
@ well obviously it’s beatable. Levan would beat me if i used two hands does that make it fair? The kings is a joke. How is Genadi going to pin Todd that last match. He was up on the table pushing as far as possible. Todd just sitting there very comfortable while Genadi gasses. It’s an absolute joke. There is zero honor winning like that. I don’t count those as wins at all
@@Justinsox39armwrestle smarter. Genadi could go back to the centre and try to regrip, climb higher. He had options.
@@Justinsox39 I don't get your point. If MMT was using a defensive side pressure instead and let's say Genadi couldn't drive through the defensive side pressure, that means MMT won without honor? Or does your argument only applies to kings move? Sounds pretty discriminatory towards 1 particular move and not the other defensive move
@4:10 well don’t lose your wrist. Just as in any move. A lot happens between go and someone getting to the point of losing their wrist and being in a flop press.
I don't get what you are responding to at 4:10. Your response seems meaningless
@ when he was saying that someone in a flop press with their wrist bent back doesn’t have any options to get their wrist back. Probably just before 4:10
@ Yeah I don't understand your point, but that's okay.
Yah it's quite odd that Janis even bring this point up. He said if you made a mistake of going into flop press, you will never be able to turn the pronation of the kings mover. Well, that's precisely because you made the mistake of flop pressing down the kings mover lane 😅
Janis, you can't serious use this scenario to describe the fairness or lack thereof of kings move
@@CossyMango exactly
Good video. Don't understand the comments about being salty.
I also had limited ROM in my elbow from arm wrestling and i could for example hang on one arm in end range (150 degrees) with 260 lbs BW, no way I could hang like that for a long time with full flexibility in my elbow. I am amazed that people argue IF having limited elbow extension ROM is a good or bad thing when discussing kings move ability.
Janis do you cry about Denis' kingsmove too, or only MMT/Devon when they win?
The debate was helpful to see both sides and think through things more, thanks for sharing your honest thoughts Janis. Thinking through it more I'm leaning on the side of pro-kings move, I appreciate the debate though ❤
You salty europeans 😂
You braindead knuckle dragging muricans...
keep crying, learn to pull
Why would europeans be salty, almost every champ is european 😂😂😂
If you ban straight arm joint lock you need to also ban flop press wrist lock. The reason its fair is because everyone is allowed to do these advantages moves. Or just pin their hand.
Very well explained, Janis.
I vote for creating another category, as Ermes said, category for the Disabled Champions.
I'm so sorry guys i was absolutely wrong, becoming a kingsmover changed my whole armwrestling life, listening to this absurd video makes me laugh
Your channel name 😂
If youvare a king's armwrestling obviously you have no hand and wrist.
The salt is coming from his irrelevance
How can a sheep talk about who is irrelevant or not in armwreslting?
This comment just shows you know nothing about arm wrestling if you think Janis is irrelevant.
unc pushing 50 just train your wrist mate
Janis, your opinion is unpopular, you lost the debate, 95% of the comments were criticism towards YOU and YOUR points in the comment section, it's not trolls understand that you are wrong and your obsession with becoming an arm wrestling police officer is ridiculous, stop policing this great sport leave it alone, no one appreciates your tyrannical intents, like it or not the most watched arm wrestling matches on youtube have the kingsmove, your paranoia is an enemy of armwrestling
I agree 100% even though I am considered a "king's mover" by some. Adding in the shoulder rotation is only possible as the arm becomes straight and doing it even once can wreck the opponents wrist for the rest of the match. A subtle but good example was in a recent match between Artem and Max where, when Max was close to pinning, Artem quickly straightened out his arm to increase his pronation(by adding shoulder rotation) to avoid the pin. Max was smart and strong enough to eventually overcome it but had his wrist been truly cracked it likely wouldn't have recovered for the rest of the match and Artem would have then had the advantage for the remaining rounds. In some ways it makes me think that making a rule against using shoulder rotation might a better way to regulate it? The match in my example is still in a PPV but I can post it once the match goes to youtube.
I can rotate my arm while it's bent 🤷
@@Chris_Ireland Sure. That's normal pronation. Once you straighten your arm you rotate your arm roughly 90-degrees further. Try it. It makes a big difference.
Exactly. In that movement you don't need muscles at all. Just hope that your bones don't break and rotate your whole arm. The force needed to break a bone is much more than what someone can wrist curl.
@@AaronCastillo if the arm becomes straight with the humerus at a level or positive angle you will be pinned. Not an issue anymore.
@@Dmgolfer22 still an issue if you cracked their wrist that way while getting pinned in a super match where there are still rounds to go before the match is completed. If the winner's wrist got cracked just to get the pin in the first round they might now lose all the following rounds because of it. And in a tournament setting that puller might have the rest of his/her day ruined as well.
I’m not an expert but I’m seeing people like Neil Pickup say Devon understands kings move far more than even him and all the subtleties of it. So clearly Janis doesn’t understand very much at all. He also doesn’t understand that arm wrestling is as much a tactical gambit sport as it is a strength sport
All your comment is just filled with pure logical fallacies😂
@ none of which you can name, great job laying them out there
@ keep whining about you not understanding tactical and technical superiority from Devon 🤣🤣 Wehhhh it should just be side pressure wins why
Absolute legend! Thank you Janis for speaking FACTS and not caving in to Devon’s popularity and mindless trolls. You nailed your argument. We all saw Devon rotating with his arm inward when Levan fully outstretched his arm. It is just silly to not foul someone at that point.
Facts.
@@r.a.fiallos234 well that was illegal and properly stopped and called a foul. No issue. Terrible example to use
@ the foul was for the declined numerous, not for the side elbow and outstretched arm.
@@r.a.fiallos234 the declined humerus is what made the extended ‘outstretched’ arm possible. If not for the declined humerus, he would have been pinned And elbow pivoting to the side is not a foul. The elbow pivots to the side when pinning as well. In WAF rules You can even have the the elbow not in contact with the elbow pad as long as it’s above the perimeter of the pad while the back of your upper arm is in contact with the pad. So this “elbow to the side” is not a foul.
@ thanks for clarifying. It’s the fully outstretched arm and playing the angles under the table to get away from the pin pad that gets me the most. I just hope it never gets made legal again.
At the end of the day, it is opinion on if it is fair or not. I respect your opinion and experience as an armwrestler and physical therapist. The big problem is how to make sure any rule changes wouldn't affect the rest of the sport, and I'd rather we have things as they are than risk taking away too much flexibility just to avoid a very very rare few kings movers winning.
Wow, this went from zero to 100 QUICKLY! This video holds nothing back. I mostly lean to the voices on this channel. I am only new in this a a hobby puller, but personally I prefer more traditional styles. It would take me a few years to get any horse in the race.
I am totally with you
I think the key point here is that anyone using the floppers wrist will be at a major disadvantage against a locked in Kingsmover, who can just lay back, let the the other guy burn out, and then take back control. The Kingsmover is then resting 1cm away from the pad, while the flop presser is burning himself out. Unfair? I think so, yeah.
Devon will say that: "Haha, he fell into the trap, he lost his wrist!". But, the flop presser is still using his muscles and energy to fight, the Kingsmover is not. Is that good armwrestling?
There is a difference between arm wrestling fans and smooth brain Devon Larratt simps... Ignore them Janis :)
Lmao
I really dislike devon, but I kings move often and I have a hyperflexible elbow, so no where near being able to even use a bonelock, and I still beat all the low table iq “always hook” roided up fanatics who doesn’t dare to use even 20 of their 70 iq on armwrestling.
Janis doesn’t once talk about the actual mechanics of the kingsmove or hov to get there, he literally only talks about the bonelock. Tell me how I can do it with a hyperflexible arm if you’re not one of those “smooth brains”
Legit i've never seen d4mber fan girls in any sport than armwrestling (kinda expected since 99% of them are redn3cks and indians)
They make 2 IQ Conor fangirls look like geniuses
Latvia has alot to learn
Say it after.. if you will beat Janis
Snarkiness makes you unable to swim
Janis looks like golem from lord of the rings when he's upset
The issue isn't whether it's bone lock or not. The issue is, is it any more of an advantage than any other technique born out of natural attributes or lack there of. Is the kings move the answer to winning matches? No.... if it was everybody would be doing it. The fact is many try it and lose, so the reality is only some can use the technique successfully... you know what that sounds like? Every other technique in arm wrestling..... that's why not every armwrestler is proficient in every technique, because you have to have attributes that lend themselves towards that technique... so it's no different, just maybe looks less pretty, but it's not less fair🤷🏼♂️
The fact that your making a video explaining your side of the debate after the fact proves Devon is on point and you just got schooled.
I think the parallel you made with wrestlers was spot on.
If you weight over 120kg you can't compete, wrestling at 160kg would be absurd. Same in armwrestling, if you have a 90 degree disabled arm you cant compete because it's unfair to have an armbar and not the point of armwrestling.
So I agree, straight arm foul rule should be implemented, referees should measure where the athletes arm stop straightening before the match and foul the athlete during the match if the arm goes in end of motion.
My take: a rule for losing a match due to being at the end of the tange of motion should only be put into effect if/when the upper echelon of armwrestling is clearly dominated by kings movers.
At this point in time the kings move matches are not the upper echelon, so they are not taking away from stronger athletes at all.
It‘s that time of the year again, when the discussion for kings move starts.
It is just a move, get over it and learn to beat it. I also don‘t like it but it exists and since the shoulder is above the table is legal.
These guys cannot armwrestle out of the box, so rigid my god!
The question is how to rule "against the Kings move" but agree. No one except prob Devon wants to see two guy hang under the table for 30 min until one guy gives up. That will for sure ruin the spectator side of armwrestling.
Day 14 of Janis trying to downplay MMT's win against Ermes in the scenario that MMT actually wins
I think the kings move should be allowed in winning or losing position. My motto is this prectice more and find away around it. Only a few cry that cant technically deal with it. Remember practice makes perfect. There is a way around any problem in life. One just has to search hard enough. 😊 Do not be butt hurt because you may not be able to defeat it. Work harder practice harder. Where there is a will there is a way 😊 Practice to be shotgun fast off the line. Practice a fast whicked press there is ways.
But 2 guys can't hang anymore because shoulder below table is not allowed? So why are you crying so much.
Janis is making just too much sense for a average Devon fangirl...
Im a Devon fan and a Janis fan, But I still agree with Janis on kings move
No debate needed, strait arm should be a loss, if indeed it goes completely strait
A pure sport ,Denise almost died juicing himself to the gills.Levan is almost the size of a silverback pure indeed
What are your thoughts of adding a "near fall" system like what exists in folkstyle wrestling?
You say it's not personal but every rule. Change has Devon in it for a example
You’re argument Illogical, if the kings move was so broken then why doesn’t everyone use it? Both Michael and Devon have been pinned. What you have is a skill issue.