Hello Mr Alex. First thanks for all rope access resources technician in this level. As a rope access technicians Thanks to all technics teaching and different challenges in all rescue all locations. I'm sure every technicians for rescue needs creative and skills to do this work with time management. Thank you so much again. Good luck.
That was a nice way to save it at the end with the grillon Btw. At minute 26 or so for a while there is a second audio track running parallel to the main one.
Hi Alex, thanks for the wonderful content! I like that your videos reflect that no matter what "level" you are ,we all do mistakes and most importantly is to find a solution to tackle anything we encounter ! As you say : " There are multiple ways to do things ..." Keep up the great work that you do for the comunity!
That was awesome, simply switching your backup line to your main descent line while maintaining two points of attachment. Watching you work your way through the problem is inspiring!
In a pinch, you did great, at an assessment, that's not my call. What I learned is,,, always bring another descender, and Always, always have two backups. And, A bag has no gear, unless it's in the bag. Haha. Thank you Alex for these live videos, it makes it really real for me. Alles Gute
"Unless it is in the bag" hahaha Yeah, when doing these more complicated rescues it is best to just have everything double with you just in case the CS is missing equipment. But still, the challenge is also nice ;-)
Just a thought, you could connect the grillon to the casualty’s D-ring instead of yours, then lower yourself until their weight is suspended on the grillon and no longer on your shared connections. You could then put the casualty on the spare backup, temporarily disconnect your shared connections in order to switch your descender to the other line, and once you are on that line lower the casualty back onto you. Just an “armchair” idea. It’s a great thing to think about either way, because I suppose it’s not inconceivable that the casualty could drop their DCD, leaving you without a spare in a pinch.
Yes, hindsight is always 20/20, and it’s easy to come up with the perfect solution when you have plenty of time to think and there isn’t any pressure. If I were the casualty I would have felt 100% comfortable with you using the grillon as you did. I love that you are willing to try out different things in these videos. Alot of guys would stick to only what they are most familiar with in order to always look great in the video, but that’s not real life!
Thanks for sharing... First thing that comes to mind: Why didn't you put a Carabiner into the Butterfly then run the Grillon from your D through it back down to yourself? This way you would have halfed the load on the Grillon and could have descended with the casualkty safely.... Keep making those mistakes, they are getting you to be creative and come up with solutions that my be useful to you and the RA community too because you do such a good job sharing them!
Good recovery. Had a similar situation, ended up putting the bag on separate points, passed the knots and then picked it off again. Except for the rioe stretch, wasn't too bad
That is always a good solution! I have done that in the past too. This time it did not come to mind because the bag did not have any hardwear. Now typing this I see some other options with the gear I had on me that would have worked better...
Alex, Great video as always Your comments are really good and give an better insight into the process of things. 👍 Wanted to point out that audio track is doubled from 26.27 Check and fix it if you have a moment to spare. Thank you very much!
Thanks for that! I found out after the upload. Someone commented on it.. I can not change it any more. TH-cam does not do audio editing or allow reuploading unfortunately …
Hi Alex, What do you think: - for the casualty lift I would use the cord (6-8 mm) from your Youmar, attaching my short lanyard to the casualty, prussic in the casualty “D” ring than the cord go up directly in the eye if it is rounded than using like a foot loop, standing up on the loop, detaching the karabiner leaving in my short fix lanyard. - on the ascending part if you put your fix lanyard in the loop of the butterfly knot than detaching your back up than putting your backup under the knot etc. That would be my solution, with the same tools. Congratulations on your TH-cam channel! All the best Erik from Hungary 🇭🇺
The counterbalance is how I teach it normally. But lowering to far can prove a challenge for some people. This was just a little experiment. And it worked great. Also because of the rounded eyes. On the descend, the ropes were broken at the knot. So the way it was rigged I could not use the butterfly knots. I have a video with multiple ways to pass it here on TH-cam. This another experiment because the CS did not have a descender.
Hi Alex. Just want to mention according to manufacturers manual that grillon is single-person use only. As EN12841 type c descender WWL is only 100kg (Petzl rating) Fon some funny reasons as work positioning device (EN 358) WWL is 140 kg. So here we got reason to discussion: Should you use it as you did? My input: Would I use it if I have to save life of coworker? Yes!
@@technoheld1989 I don’t work in industrial Rope access , but I do work in Aviation and one of the first rules of the FAA laid out is that you can break any rules in case of an emergency
Yes, thank you for sharing. I know and knew in the back of my mind when I did it.. I think that EN358 rating number has to do with EN358 certification. It is the value needed for it. Somebody correct me if I am wrong. Same as EN12841A and the 140kg weight limit. We all know that 4kN is always possible before we start to damage the ropes... That said, in the past I have pull tested Grillons and got up to 7kN before my van (used as an anchor point) starting slipping on the concrete... The way I used it here I was trying to load it statically and only needed to make a tiny descent. Was it the best way, no. Were there other ways, absolutely!
Agreed. If we go by the numbers it wasn't "allowed". If we risk assess it and take data I have from previous testing, it is definitely possible. In a pinch.
I like that statement! In some parts of the ropes world that is an unwritten rule as well. I do think the decisions you do take should be based on a sort of risk assessment of why you choose to deviate from standard work methods..
Nice solution for the problems you faced! Always nice to watch your videos! Keep them comming! Just a extra point, you never closed the carabiner on the grilion when using it to lower the bag on yourself. Not the biggest problem because of the extra points of contact, but closed carabiners are nicer 😅 Anytime soon back in the Eemshaven? Think i regocnised the harbour in one of your videos?
Thank you 🙏🏻 And thanks why at that moment I put that text up to leave a comment 😉 Till after summer I’m working mostly onshore in the west of NL. No Eemshaven yet
Very interesting video. It's also nice to see how you can help yourself when something isn't going perfectly. I look forward to more videos. At the end of the video, their voices overlap when explaining. Stay healthy and have fun in this interesting job.
Nicely done! I always enjoy seeing how others solve a problem. Personally I probably would have tied a super munter in lieu of a second descender if in that position.
@@TheRopeAccessChannel I looked through the ICOP again but didn't see anything that would forbid it. Would you be kind enough to reference the information that would say it's not acceptable practice? I understand it certainly would not be ideal. I'm not doubting you, just trying to expand my understanding of IRATA accepted practices and looking for the supporting documentation is all.
@@TheModularDiver Thank you for your input and adding to the conversation When we use a munter or supermunter it becomes a descender. And then under 2.7.5.4 f) the ICOP says this. f) automatically stop the descent if the rope access technician loses control, i.e. lock automatically in the hands-free mode (noting that it is common and acceptable for some minor creep of the descending device along the anchor line to occur); There are ways around this by adding prussiks and such. It is just not something that is done or taught under IRATA. If we think about two independent points of contact when in suspension, then also the supermunter would not suffice when we go handsfree. Does that make sense?
@@TheRopeAccessChannel Thanks, the logic path does make sense. Having looked closer at that section and the wording, I think there is still an argument to be made for it being an acceptable practice (while certainly far from ideal). "Descending devices :" The use of "should" implies it's a recommendation rather than a requirement. Personally, I feel that this is one area where SPRAT excelled by clearly outlining what is required versus what is recommended. I don't want to detract from what you are trying to demonstrate, so I won't continue on, haha. However, I think it would make for a very interesting side conversation among L3s, trainers, and assessors."
@@TheModularDiver I agree with you as far that it is far from ideal and a very valid solution in an emergency for an experienced rope tech. And if I put my Instructor hat on and think about the number of craftsman I have taught to climb who have no interest whatsoever in learning new tricks and just want to get the job done, I’d say focusing on tight basics and job planning and prevention of these situations is far more valuable. And I welcome any conversation all the time😃. Thank you for contributing 🙏🏻🙏🏻
How many Grillon can you carry with you in the assessment? And please another question, can you carry all the equipment you want with you? Or can the evaluator oppose the being that you have a lot of equipments? Thank you for your answer.
THese days you can use whatever you want (with the modern day assessor). However, if it seems that you NEED a piece of exotic gear to be able to do something that is simple with a footloop or accessory cord, they may ask you to show a simpler version. Like using a Petzl Jag or Harken Wingman for a Croll rescue. Hell, I even used and Actsafe winch on my latest assessment haha So if you go into a rescue and think a fourth asap would be good, just take it.
Alex can you do a video on.... If a main line anchor failed while lowering a casualty so they ended up locking out the asap, how you would haul them up on the same rope as the asaps rope
Alex, i notice the fall arrest device isn't petzl asap. I just learned these devices grab the rope by twisting it, and if it's pre-loaded they may simply not catch. What's your take on that?
Yeah, that is how they function. The device cams the rope creating friction and stopping a fall. Some, or most tend not to do that properly when the rope is tensioned or with a weight on it. I have no issue with that as long as we keep that in mind.
Training center is too brightly lit for me. TRAC in the uk had a center but it was too big too bright also not sound deadening. In these spaces it is difficult to hear sometimes. In Scitland tgere is a space called ARA. It's in Glasgow and for me it is perfect. No glareing lights (if I get glare I get migraine due to a TBI from the Army) many structures to by-pass yet a smallish space. I still think there should be a height test for new level ones. 300ft open tower would be good. There are far too many people in IRATA who are scared of heights.
Personally the sound is the most distracting part of these centers, This wasn't so bright when looking at the necessary camera settings. I had to up the exposure a bit in post as well. But... I don't have a TBI and migraines lurking around the corner and I can not judge it through your experiences.
Even if devices like the Grillon are not built for a two-person load. There are a lot of reserves and I would say that there can be exceptions in a rescue.
Hi, I’m a arborist i don’t know your rules perfectly , but couldn’t you put the grillon in a double rope configuration. The working load limit would have doubled so it would have been fine for a two person load.
Very nice video.. I think is 100 more times better find the way to solve the problems who doing perfect video with rescue or other.. Congrats.. This is one of the most cool video i ever seen here.. we want more..
Yeah I noticed after the first comments. Somehow i managed to duplicate part of the audio track and move it sideways in the timeline right before the final export🙄. Thanks for mentioning that 🙏🏻🙏🏻👍🏼
at 6:44 you should lock the line to yourself, preventing drop potential, as people are under you, lock one side of the line to you, then shift the other side, to the anchor, then the object, so nothing drops on heads!!
That is a very good technical and training mindset. I am a more practical man. There should not be anyone underneath, everyone is aware there are suspended people, and last there is very little chance something drops. This to me something that falls under “do you secure you carabiners when you rig suspended?”
Is it? What if I have two 49,9kg persons? To my knowledge Petzl doesn't say 1 person. Kidding a little. WLL as an EN12841C descender is 100kg. My testing shows 7kn and nothing happens. You RA and decide. Like I mentioned on various places. It wasn;t the best solution (still, mostly static and a tiny descent), i would not teach it this way, I dont advice it, I just show an impromptu problem that needed to be solved. and in a real rescue not a big deal.
Learning big time what not to do besides no having the right gear for a rescue no locking carabiner on grillon body for the part descending casualty from short link, it was on 2 points but still bad practice
I dont understand. All the carabiners were locking carabiners and with that short link part I think nothing is wrong. Just that passing knots part is bad practice and still safe ;-)
Hello Mr Alex. First thanks for all rope access resources technician in this level. As a rope access technicians Thanks to all technics teaching and different challenges in all rescue all locations. I'm sure every technicians for rescue needs creative and skills to do this work with time management.
Thank you so much again. Good luck.
That was a nice way to save it at the end with the grillon
Btw. At minute 26 or so for a while there is a second audio track running parallel to the main one.
Shit yes! I have no idea how that got there. I cant change it now. So unfortunate. Thank you for bringing it to my attention.
Hi Alex,
thanks for the wonderful content!
I like that your videos reflect that no matter what "level" you are ,we all do mistakes and most importantly is to find a solution to tackle anything we encounter !
As you say : " There are multiple ways to do things ..."
Keep up the great work that you do for the comunity!
Thanks Martin!
That was awesome, simply switching your backup line to your main descent line while maintaining two points of attachment. Watching you work your way through the problem is inspiring!
Thanks 🙏🏻😃😃
In a pinch, you did great, at an assessment, that's not my call.
What I learned is,,, always bring another descender, and Always, always have two backups.
And, A bag has no gear, unless it's in the bag. Haha. Thank you Alex for these live videos, it makes it really real for me. Alles Gute
"Unless it is in the bag" hahaha
Yeah, when doing these more complicated rescues it is best to just have everything double with you just in case the CS is missing equipment. But still, the challenge is also nice ;-)
I love your videos Alex, thanks for all the hard work. That's the first time i've seen the Grillion used in a vector like that.
Glad you like them!
Just a thought, you could connect the grillon to the casualty’s D-ring instead of yours, then lower yourself until their weight is suspended on the grillon and no longer on your shared connections. You could then put the casualty on the spare backup, temporarily disconnect your shared connections in order to switch your descender to the other line, and once you are on that line lower the casualty back onto you. Just an “armchair” idea. It’s a great thing to think about either way, because I suppose it’s not inconceivable that the casualty could drop their DCD, leaving you without a spare in a pinch.
That would have been my method of i would have thought about it a little longer👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼
Yes, hindsight is always 20/20, and it’s easy to come up with the perfect solution when you have plenty of time to think and there isn’t any pressure. If I were the casualty I would have felt 100% comfortable with you using the grillon as you did. I love that you are willing to try out different things in these videos. Alot of guys would stick to only what they are most familiar with in order to always look great in the video, but that’s not real life!
@@joshuadallen6012 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
Thanks for sharing... First thing that comes to mind: Why didn't you put a Carabiner into the Butterfly then run the Grillon from your D through it back down to yourself? This way you would have halfed the load on the Grillon and could have descended with the casualkty safely.... Keep making those mistakes, they are getting you to be creative and come up with solutions that my be useful to you and the RA community too because you do such a good job sharing them!
That would have been a great solution!! Good idea 👍🏼
That’s a very clever solution ! Good thinking.
Thanks 🙏🏻🙏🏻
Good recovery. Had a similar situation, ended up putting the bag on separate points, passed the knots and then picked it off again. Except for the rioe stretch, wasn't too bad
That is always a good solution! I have done that in the past too. This time it did not come to mind because the bag did not have any hardwear. Now typing this I see some other options with the gear I had on me that would have worked better...
Alex, Great video as always
Your comments are really good and give an better insight into the process of things. 👍
Wanted to point out that audio track is doubled from 26.27
Check and fix it if you have a moment to spare. Thank you very much!
Thanks for that! I found out after the upload. Someone commented on it.. I can not change it any more. TH-cam does not do audio editing or allow reuploading unfortunately …
Hi Alex,
What do you think:
- for the casualty lift I would use the cord (6-8 mm) from your Youmar, attaching my short lanyard to the casualty, prussic in the casualty “D” ring than the cord go up directly in the eye if it is rounded than using like a foot loop, standing up on the loop, detaching the karabiner leaving in my short fix lanyard.
- on the ascending part if you put your fix lanyard in the loop of the butterfly knot than detaching your back up than putting your backup under the knot etc.
That would be my solution, with the same tools.
Congratulations on your TH-cam channel!
All the best Erik from Hungary 🇭🇺
The counterbalance is how I teach it normally. But lowering to far can prove a challenge for some people. This was just a little experiment. And it worked great. Also because of the rounded eyes.
On the descend, the ropes were broken at the knot. So the way it was rigged I could not use the butterfly knots. I have a video with multiple ways to pass it here on TH-cam. This another experiment because the CS did not have a descender.
Hi Alex. Just want to mention according to manufacturers manual that grillon is single-person use only.
As EN12841 type c descender WWL is only 100kg (Petzl rating)
Fon some funny reasons as work positioning device (EN 358) WWL is 140 kg.
So here we got reason to discussion:
Should you use it as you did?
My input:
Would I use it if I have to save life of coworker? Yes!
There are a lot of reserves and I would say that there can be exceptions in a rescue.
@@technoheld1989 I don’t work in industrial Rope access , but I do work in Aviation and one of the first rules of the FAA laid out is that you can break any rules in case of an emergency
Yes, thank you for sharing. I know and knew in the back of my mind when I did it.. I think that EN358 rating number has to do with EN358 certification. It is the value needed for it. Somebody correct me if I am wrong. Same as EN12841A and the 140kg weight limit. We all know that 4kN is always possible before we start to damage the ropes...
That said, in the past I have pull tested Grillons and got up to 7kN before my van (used as an anchor point) starting slipping on the concrete...
The way I used it here I was trying to load it statically and only needed to make a tiny descent. Was it the best way, no. Were there other ways, absolutely!
Agreed. If we go by the numbers it wasn't "allowed". If we risk assess it and take data I have from previous testing, it is definitely possible. In a pinch.
I like that statement! In some parts of the ropes world that is an unwritten rule as well. I do think the decisions you do take should be based on a sort of risk assessment of why you choose to deviate from standard work methods..
Nice solution for the problems you faced! Always nice to watch your videos! Keep them comming!
Just a extra point, you never closed the carabiner on the grilion when using it to lower the bag on yourself. Not the biggest problem because of the extra points of contact, but closed carabiners are nicer 😅
Anytime soon back in the Eemshaven? Think i regocnised the harbour in one of your videos?
Thank you 🙏🏻
And thanks why at that moment I put that text up to leave a comment 😉
Till after summer I’m working mostly onshore in the west of NL. No Eemshaven yet
Very interesting video. It's also nice to see how you can help yourself when something isn't going perfectly. I look forward to more videos. At the end of the video, their voices overlap when explaining. Stay healthy and have fun in this interesting job.
Yeah thanks for bringing that up. I don't know what happened. I must made an error on export of the file. I cant change it any more unfortunately
Nicely done! I always enjoy seeing how others solve a problem. Personally I probably would have tied a super munter in lieu of a second descender if in that position.
Great point! However within IRATA that is not an acceptable practice. In other industries definitely a good option
@@TheRopeAccessChannel I looked through the ICOP again but didn't see anything that would forbid it. Would you be kind enough to reference the information that would say it's not acceptable practice? I understand it certainly would not be ideal.
I'm not doubting you, just trying to expand my understanding of IRATA accepted practices and looking for the supporting documentation is all.
@@TheModularDiver Thank you for your input and adding to the conversation
When we use a munter or supermunter it becomes a descender. And then under 2.7.5.4 f) the ICOP says this.
f) automatically stop the descent if the rope access technician loses control, i.e. lock automatically in the hands-free mode (noting that it is common and acceptable for some minor creep of the descending device along the anchor line to occur);
There are ways around this by adding prussiks and such. It is just not something that is done or taught under IRATA.
If we think about two independent points of contact when in suspension, then also the supermunter would not suffice when we go handsfree.
Does that make sense?
@@TheRopeAccessChannel Thanks, the logic path does make sense. Having looked closer at that section and the wording, I think there is still an argument to be made for it being an acceptable practice (while certainly far from ideal).
"Descending devices :"
The use of "should" implies it's a recommendation rather than a requirement. Personally, I feel that this is one area where SPRAT excelled by clearly outlining what is required versus what is recommended.
I don't want to detract from what you are trying to demonstrate, so I won't continue on, haha. However, I think it would make for a very interesting side conversation among L3s, trainers, and assessors."
@@TheModularDiver I agree with you as far that it is far from ideal and a very valid solution in an emergency for an experienced rope tech. And if I put my Instructor hat on and think about the number of craftsman I have taught to climb who have no interest whatsoever in learning new tricks and just want to get the job done, I’d say focusing on tight basics and job planning and prevention of these situations is far more valuable.
And I welcome any conversation all the time😃. Thank you for contributing 🙏🏻🙏🏻
How many Grillon can you carry with you in the assessment? And please another question, can you carry all the equipment you want with you? Or can the evaluator oppose the being that you have a lot of equipments?
Thank you for your answer.
THese days you can use whatever you want (with the modern day assessor). However, if it seems that you NEED a piece of exotic gear to be able to do something that is simple with a footloop or accessory cord, they may ask you to show a simpler version. Like using a Petzl Jag or Harken Wingman for a Croll rescue. Hell, I even used and Actsafe winch on my latest assessment haha So if you go into a rescue and think a fourth asap would be good, just take it.
Alex can you do a video on....
If a main line anchor failed while lowering a casualty so they ended up locking out the asap, how you would haul them up on the same rope as the asaps rope
Sure thing! I will put that on the list!
Petzl NEWTON Fall Arrest Full Body Harness . What is the breaking strength of these harnesses in kilo Newton.
At least 15 KN and it could go up till 40 kN or more
Alex, i notice the fall arrest device isn't petzl asap. I just learned these devices grab the rope by twisting it, and if it's pre-loaded they may simply not catch. What's your take on that?
I'm referring to minute 24:00
Yeah, that is how they function. The device cams the rope creating friction and stopping a fall. Some, or most tend not to do that properly when the rope is tensioned or with a weight on it. I have no issue with that as long as we keep that in mind.
Okay, thanks a lot
Training center is too brightly lit for me. TRAC in the uk had a center but it was too big too bright also not sound deadening.
In these spaces it is difficult to hear sometimes. In Scitland tgere is a space called ARA. It's in Glasgow and for me it is perfect.
No glareing lights (if I get glare I get migraine due to a TBI from the Army) many structures to by-pass yet a smallish space.
I still think there should be a height test for new level ones. 300ft open tower would be good.
There are far too many people in IRATA who are scared of heights.
Personally the sound is the most distracting part of these centers, This wasn't so bright when looking at the necessary camera settings. I had to up the exposure a bit in post as well. But... I don't have a TBI and migraines lurking around the corner and I can not judge it through your experiences.
At 26:27 there is audio, over the audio lol
Yeah, I know now. I can;t change it anymore..Thanks for letting me know.
@@TheRopeAccessChannel We all make mistakes sometimes. Climb safe! 😊
@@alotl1kevegas860 👊🏼
What do you think of that solution to pass the knots?
i looked it up and in descender mode the working load is 100 kg for the grillon.
Would have do the same
Even if devices like the Grillon are not built for a two-person load. There are a lot of reserves and I would say that there can be exceptions in a rescue.
Hi, I’m a arborist i don’t know your rules perfectly , but couldn’t you put the grillon in a double rope configuration. The working load limit would have doubled so it would have been fine for a two person load.
@@technoheld1989 agreed, I have testen Grillons to 7kN in the past so they are definitely strong enough.
Very nice video.. I think is 100 more times better find the way to solve the problems who doing perfect video with rescue or other.. Congrats.. This is one of the most cool video i ever seen here.. we want more..
Thanks man 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
26:29 audio overlap, good video otherwise 🎉
Yeah I noticed after the first comments. Somehow i managed to duplicate part of the audio track and move it sideways in the timeline right before the final export🙄.
Thanks for mentioning that 🙏🏻🙏🏻👍🏼
at 6:44 you should lock the line to yourself, preventing drop potential, as people are under you, lock one side of the line to you, then shift the other side, to the anchor, then the object, so nothing drops on heads!!
That is a very good technical and training mindset. I am a more practical man. There should not be anyone underneath, everyone is aware there are suspended people, and last there is very little chance something drops. This to me something that falls under “do you secure you carabiners when you rig suspended?”
Awesome video
Thanks man 🙏🏻🙏🏻
Grillon only rated for one person not two???
Is it? What if I have two 49,9kg persons? To my knowledge Petzl doesn't say 1 person. Kidding a little. WLL as an EN12841C descender is 100kg. My testing shows 7kn and nothing happens. You RA and decide. Like I mentioned on various places. It wasn;t the best solution (still, mostly static and a tiny descent), i would not teach it this way, I dont advice it, I just show an impromptu problem that needed to be solved. and in a real rescue not a big deal.
@@TheRopeAccessChannel nice!
I did the exact same thing to a T 😂.
hahaha
Learning big time what not to do besides no having the right gear for a rescue no locking carabiner on grillon body for the part descending casualty from short link, it was on 2 points but still bad practice
I dont understand. All the carabiners were locking carabiners and with that short link part I think nothing is wrong. Just that passing knots part is bad practice and still safe ;-)
Real life.. Is nit easy.. this the best way to learn do mistake on training
Exactly 🤜🏻🤛🏻