Do Cheap Turntables Destroy Your Vinyl Records? Definitive Test
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 มี.ค. 2017
- **Edit Jan. 2021: Want a cheap okay turntable for less money than a Cruiser costs? Watch this Techmoan Video: • £89 Dual ‘DJ Turntable...
There is a lot of talk about cheap plastic retro turntables destroying your records. But is it actually true that low-end Crosley, Ion, Steepletone, GPO etc. record players are to be avoided? This video answers that question and delivers proof.
EDIT: I have finally decided to hold all further comments for review, which may or may not happen occasionally. The reason for this is the mass amount of hostile people without a clue what they are talking about still turning up here. I am happy to discuss politely about the video, and I am totally fine with people disagreeing with me. I am not okay with insults directed at me, and especially at people commenting in a civilized manner, or the community in general. And frankly, I neither have the time nor interest in engaging with trolls and troublemakers. If you don't like what you see, watch something else. - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
I meant to make this video, you beat me to it. Still may, just in case. But yup, this is what I already knew. They DO destroy your records. And with quality control on those things they may destroy them even more, or a little less. It's not the tracking force that's the issue in the first place. It's the combination of tracking force, a very badly designed cantilever, bad arm bearing and a badly cut stylus. All of the above. Generally, if you have a record player with a decent cartridge (you often see the AudioTechnica AT-3600L on half decent cheap record players) and a tracking force under 4.5 grams, you are 'okayish'.
Also, with a cheap shitty record player like that, you destroy your records while NOT enjoying them. It's a lose-lose.
You pretty much summed up all the points I made over the years in the comments. I am still puzzled why people don't just spend 50 bucks more to buy something new and halfway decent, or 50 bucks less for a good used proper record player. I would like to encourage you to do the video you thought about making, it never hurts to have more of them out there. But prepare for the trolls and knowitalls ;-)
I played vinyl a lot in my life and the truth is, if you play any record 100 times, on any turntable, the record will degrade a bit. I agree with somebody else who commented, who said...If you want better sound, you can always listen to a CD. I think people are WAY too picky these days for vinyl. People are more into tech than they are music, it seems. If you buy used vintage vinyl, you can pretty much be sure that it was played on some cheap home stereo -- maybe even 100 times. When vinyl was all their was, people didn't worry about all this stuff -- they played their records on whatever player there was in the house. It wasn't about tech, they just wanted to listen to music.
I agree, degradation always happens. The point of the video was to compare how much more degradation happens with those cheap crappy turntables, compared to a better one. In my opinion, the difference is very significant, I personally couldn't hear the difference between the new record and the one I played on the better turntable 100 times.
I also agree that tech nerdism is quite prevalent in the vinyl community. Quite frankly, my "better" turntable probably isn't exactly well respected in the circles of the true geeks. I am happy with it though, and for my purposes, it works well. I like listening to records for various reasons, not necessarily for "better" sound. I also buy new records regularly, and knowing that my turntable handles them well and doesn't damage them as much as a cheapo player would, is a good thing in my eyes. That's basically what I wanted to share when I made this video.
I think we in the vinyl community should be very grateful to this guy for carrying out this test. Excellent stuff, thank you :)
vinyl community knew that long time ago, nobody has to destroy records again to prove this
Why is this video not more popular? This is great and very informative - you actually show proof rather than just saying it destroys records.
Thanks, I appreciate that!
As far as the number of views is concerned, this isn't exactly a popular youtube channel and I don't upload regularly. That might be a factor. But feel free to share ;-)
This test really was well done and should be more popular, I will be sharing. The damage was worse that I thought it would be.
You did a great job with the video some people still don't understand the difference but you sure can hear it in this video
The question is do vintage turntables with ceramic carts damage your records? That what most of us in the 70 s had. The BSR.
Moreover, there is some backlash saying that these cheap turntables aren't really that bad after all and that people saying they are are just... eccentric audiophiles following the herd or something. The more real info out there and less egos the better.
I am pretty thankful for this video. I have a pretty cheap ION record player, and after getting it read a lot of bad things on the internet about them. This video both confirms those things but at the same time also eases my mind a bit. Yes the problem you show is real, but it is also not as bad as some people make it seem. Most records I have are from my parents from the 70's and 80's, and if I remember correctly, my mom's old player (an old all in one we no longer have, used the same red style P-8 cartridge my ION uses. Which means it would have been pretty bad quality as well. I can definitely hear the difference you show in the video, but I can also live with that, especially considering most records I have already have that. I don't play records that often/much anyway so this video also just gives me a good excuse to save up for a better quality turntable while in the meantime I can keep using my ION every once in a while :)
Thanks!
Cheap record players are fine if you're going to play old and rather beat up, overplayed records your parents used to own and play on questionable equipment. Actually, they're going to sound terrible on state of the art turntables. :)
Depends. Turntables with better cartridges that may have thinner styluses (especially not a straight conical shape) might actually get deeper into the groove where no damage was yet done and, in turn, sound better.
i'm in the exact same scenario, did you get a new turntable?
A worn stylus will kill your records fast.
Tip: When "S"s start hissing that is a sure sign.
Thank you very much for making this! I always thought that when people say “the cheap turntables will wreck your records” they meant they would be absolutely destroyed. Damaged, yes. Destroyed, I wouldn’t say. I have one of those cheap, portable ones. Eventually, I’ll try and upgrade it!
This video is ten times better and more informative than the VWestlife one, good job. It sounded like the ortofon cartridge (which I'm guessing tracks at 2 grams) caused virtually no wear. It seems to me that it's almost impossible to "wear out" a record with a decent stylus at 2 grams.
I think that JBLF did a really nice job by providing a short, concise video that yielded some measurable results. That being said, I think that a lot of the fretting over "killing" one's records has become an understandable, though possibly skewed bit of 21st century-think.
I've collected records (cd's as well) for over 50 years. I've sold off large chunks of my collection, but still own around 1,200 LP's, 800 45's and a couple of hundred 78's, as well as tons of cd's. Some of my 45's go back to when I was a little kid, playing them on the cheapest (child) record players imaginable, as well as portables, suitcase models with heavy tonearms, and the like. I also really didn't start taking good care of my records until I was in my teens.
Most of those records - some of which go back to the mid-50's, with various family members as the original owners - are still highly playable and sound pretty great, unless they were really damaged in some deep-scratch kind of way. And the records that I bought in my teens, which were given more TLC, but still used in ways that hardly kept them "pristine" (I would often bring a few to a party or gathering; later on, I DJ'd for many years) sound fantastic if they were good -enough pressings in the first place, and most of them were. In the 60's and 70's, most of the people I knew that used to be highly concerned with nominal or worse levels of surface noise were classical and/or jazz collectors, where the dynamic range of the music can be huge. Surface noise, clicks, and pops could really impact one's listening experience when it came to listening to extremely quiet passages of music.
But when it came to rock and roll, r&b, blues, reggae, country, etc., nobody really seemed to care all that much about some wear and tear on their records. I'm not saying that's "right", but it suited us just fine. Vinyl is actually amazingly durable, and one of the thing I hated about cd's when they first arrived was that there was no "grace" to them - faulty/glitchy/degraded/damaged cd's were simply unplayable, whereas beat-up vinyl sounded funky and noisy but often really, really good. The "0's and 1's" of digital technology did not serve music well in many ways at that time; it has surely gotten better since then but still has its downside.
The other thing that, to me figures in about how precious (or not) we can be about preserving our records in this day and age: much of the newly-manufactured vinyl is absolute, total crap. The vast majority of great record-pressing plants are long gone or were converted to cd-only in the 80's. I've bought 180-gram "luxe" pressings of stuff that had a ton of surface noise right out of the sleeve....just a total joke and waste of money. I got into a protracted argument with Jack White's Third Man records over a $400 box set that was given to me as a gift, in which the records had visible pressing problems, tons of surface noise, and poorly stamped center-holes, some of which they made good on, but the whole experience was sort of a joke. Some of "regular" new pressings - like what they sell at Urban Outfitters - can be even worse, and really becomes more fashion than anything else. Yet I have an original, almost 50 year-old vinyl copy of The Stones' "Get Yer Ya-Ya's Out" that I bought in really good shape for 50 cents at a garage sale 20 years ago that sounds simply amazing. Is there some surface noise? Sure, but who can really hear it over the insane audience sounds and the band playing loud and hard? That pressing is deep groove, durable, and solid as can be.
I definitely think that one should avoid sapphire-needle players and the like if they can, and at least save for a decent turntable in the $90-$125 range or a bit more if possible, not only because it's better for your records but because it will almost surely sound better to your ears and heart, especially if you like to turn the volume up. And buy some used vinyl from other decades as part of your collection; it can often be found cheaply enough. IMHO, vinyl has a spirit and life to it that can surely kind of transcend some noise, and the various clicks, pops, and the rest become part of the sound's fabric, unless they are truly loud and obnoxious (Jamaican vinyl is pretty famous for that). Play the F out of those records and enjoy them; they can take it!
Todd Kray thank you for this write up, I really appreciate your insight. I am new to vinyl and like a lot of young 'uns I spent £20 on a Bauhn all-in-one suitcase style unit. I got an ELO best of from the early 90s as my first piece of vinyl. From reading all the brouhaha about these turntables I felt my heart sink when I was reading thinking that this unit will destroy my vinyl irreplaceably and I am the worlds biggest idiot, but this has put my overactive mind at ease somewhat. So thanks again!
Thank you for this comment, I really enjoyed reading, and agree with, all of your thoughts on this subject!
Todd Kray I've been listening to vinyl for 40 years & a bit, don't have the same amount of records as you, but what I do have I enjoy playing. Vinyl needs to be played not stored away and looked at through a plastic sleeve! I don't clean them, shame on me, but I've got a fair bit of vinyl from all those years ago and it still sounds fabulous even though it's been played on cheap turntables, a portable Dansette a gramaphone that was the size of a large cupboard, but sounded amazing to my young ears. I agree with you on the new pressings, but I have had some that have been really worth it, Zappa's Hot Rats, Yes Close to the Edge & King Crimson's In the Court... Just play your vinyl and enjoy it. The only bit of worthwhile advice I can give to anyone dipping their toes into this medium is this...NEVER, EVER LEND YOUR RECORDS TO ANYONE! Even your best mate will scratch them!
This test confirmed what I already suspected. I have a copy of "In The Cort of The Crimson King" and a copy of "Led Zeppelin I" that I bought back when I had a Crosley. They were both in almost perfect shape when I first bought them. Since they were both favorite albums, I played them a lot. Now, both have a lot of surface noise.
The more high end record players also damage your vinyl records regardless, it's not something you can really avoid except try to stall but even so it's imminent for your records to wear down within time of being use/played and the only difference is that it'll just be at a much lower pace that's all, so if the question does come up weather if record players damage your vinyls in general.. well the answer is yes and it can't really be avoided no matter how you place it and or take care of it, of course taking care of it would definitely help the situation but can't really change vinyls fate
True. But i'd personally rather go for the turntable/cartridge combo that causes no audible damage even after 100 plays. All I am trying here is to make people consider investing just a little more, without breaking the bank, so they preserve their records as much as possible. I'm not advocating high-end audiophile voodoo here :-)
Thank you so much for this video! I collect limited edition vinyls from my favorite bands and video game soundtracks, but have never actually listened to any of them out of fear that my $150 record player was going to destroy them. It’s a relief to know that the wear only happens over extended periods of time. For some reason, I was under the impression that you listened to it once on a cheap player, and that was it. Shows how much thought I put into things I’m paranoid about. 😅
Take those mint records, clean them and rip them to digital. That way you'll have some sort of a keepsake, if you must.
I have an AT LP-5 turntable (but I use an external phono amp with it) and I play all of my records through it, cheap or expensive. "Life has surface noise", as they say - vinyl is to be enjoyed. Play it and enjoy yourself :)
@jimboblivesforever : I added French subtitles, if you or someone else can validate them . . . .
J'ai sous-titré la vidéo, faut juste valider ces sous-titres.
Great video, buddy! This goes to show you, if you take care of your records and play them on "decent" equipment, they could out live us and on to the next generation! And let's not forget to keep the stylus changed BEFORE we hear degradation, and keep the groove path clean! Thank you for the upload!
Yes but for me its almost unrecognizable.
Thanks for this video! I buy a cheap turntable in January of this year, and I feel very sad for the comments on internet, but your video just calm me about that, because yes, I can hear my LP's on my cheap turntable with no problems, a good turntable it's very expensive here in Brazil, because the money here costs 5x the dollar, so I'll dont left to hear a vinyl because of opinion of some audiophiles on internet
Finally an amazing video that's scientifical about preserving your vinyl. Keep the good work, Sir.
Very informative. The problem isn't as bad as you think with old records that have been played on concrete mixers however. A lot of my older records were played back on a Fidelity UA4 autochanger, with a ceramic cartridge, and a penny on the head shell :). Fortunately the primitive conical stylus profiles on these cartridges only affects the upper surfaces of the groove walls, the information buried below will often, dirt apart, be pristine. My turntables, Hydraulic Reference, and Gyrodec, are fitted with a 2M Black, and an AT-OC7 respectively. Their stylus profiles allow me to still play the records I did my best to erase all those years ago, with hardly a pop or crackle.
Great video, very informative for someone like me that's getting into vinyl for the first time after hearing it in real life and loving the sound.
I am glad I'm researching proof videos, specifically this one and the one by VWestlife. I think the Audio-Technica LP60 would be a fine budget turntable for people like me to start out with, but I certainly will avoid anything cheaper like a Crosley in fear they will damage my records over time.
great to see a test of this sort to actually show some comparison 😀
I've heard the claims and thought it was BS, but this proves it! Wow. Good job on this video.
Thanks. People tend to exaggerate the problem, but it definitely exists. Which is sad, because, to be honest, if something like the Crosley Cruiser came out that was nicer to my records and battery-powered, I wouldn't even care whether it sounded good or not, I'd buy it in a heartbeat just for the mobility.
AT LP-5 owner here. This is actually my 1st turntable. Connected to an external phono amp, etc. I was lucky enough to read up on the hobby before diving into it, and having the budget to do it somewhat "properly". I would definitely recommend skipping on the cheap shit stuff and getting something decent at the very start!
I like the pops and hisses it’s all part of the experience. Imo
Great video. Aside from the noise level at the start, I couldn't appreciate the difference on the cheaper player after the music started. I was impressed by how the better turntable produced less noise after 100 plays though. But lets be real, if you want your music to be error free and clean with each play - listen to CD's. Audio engineers don't use vinyl records to set their levels for a reason.
I actually agree on your point on CDs, but this is not supposed to be an "all hail the vinyl record"-video anyway.
kd8poi I disagree, if you want conveniance and error free play, then listen to digital. CDs still have problems like bit rot, and scratches.
If you want the best sound from every album then you better collect all formats, because its always a case to case basis.
Leon, I can't disagree with you, but CD simply store digital information. If you want to make a case that CD's are not perfect - fine. They're still superior to vinyl . I think that eventually this argument will be moot. We only have a digital/analog argument because until the 80's music was recorded on tape. Once everyone born before 2000 dies off, and rock is as forgotten as jazz, it will be all digital always.
kd8poi CDs have less limitations than vinyl when it comes to playback, this is a fact and anyone who disagrees is just wrong.
However, its very naive to look at this through such a simple minded lens and say CD is "better". As mentioned its always a case to case basis so if we are talking purely about sound then a number of formats can hold the crown depending on the music. CDs are not always better simply because they have less limitations, there are real world factors that play into it. Ever heard of the loudness war? How about mastering and mixing engineers?
Im fairly certain that all formats used today surpass the human ear, but every format can sound like crap too. Its rarely ever the format that matters in the end.
C'mon Leon, you wanna die on that stupid hill? CD's offer superior dynamic range, fidelity, durability, portability, consistency, track access and storage compared to vinyl. When source tapes are remastered for CD/digital, CD's are better; and you know that. So if your argument is : "Well there are some CD that sound worse than records," I know that you knew before you even wrote that sentence, its because that music on that crappy sounding CD wasn't remastered for digital.
But, as someone who owns a lot of vinyl, I'll take your point - the format doesnt matter. So in that case, if you want to buy the cheapest format (because the format doesn't matter) the way to go CD's, they cost less than half of a record. And if you can find a used CD, chances are it sounds just as good as the day it was purchased and you can get it for 1/5th the price of a $25.99 album.
the difference is so small that it's barely noticeable. everyone is saying to listen with headphones, but if you really need to focus on it to hear the difference then does it really matter
That is a very personal decision. If you're okay with it because it's barely noticeable to you, that's absolutely fine. To me, it is very noticeable, because I kind of "know what to listen for", and once I hear the damage, I can't unhear it, if you know what I mean.
for audiophiles it matters and everything matters
for me if I just want to feel and taste how vinyl works CHEAP TURNTABLE satiate my curiosity
it is up to if you want to go deep in collecting vinyls and play it in a good turntable or go back to digital
This video is such a great resource for vinyl enthusiasts. Thanks! Do you recall what the tracking force was on each TT?
No, sorry. I think I recall it was above 5 grams on the cheap turntable, but I think I might have mentioned it in earlier comments. On the better one, considering it's an Ortofon 2M system, it would have been under 2 grams, probably 1,8-ish.
Very good, logical video; thumbs up! However, I had some vinyl records for many years, and I don't think I reached past three quarters of the 100 play backs. Anyway, you make a very good point; the tracking force is simply enormous, and is a detriment to any record. Furthermore, after 300 hours, or according to my Stanton L-700E phono cartridge (of 1998) manual, after 250 to 300 hours of playing records you are supposed to replace the stylus! The replacement of the stylus is important. Anyhow, I liked this demonstration based on science; on observation, and this case hearing, and on experimentation. It was logical, and coherent.
Thank You. And of course you're right, 100 plays is a lot. I just felt it would help to demonstrate the effect better.
NOT ADDRESSED: Tracking angle. The cheap units with the tonearm NOT mounted to the same chassis base as the platter (like this one) in one unit, the tracking angle of the cartridge is often WAY off. At least the ones where the whole unit is suspended together on the same chassis, the tracking angle is better.
That is far less damage than I expected. I barely noticed any difference. Maybe little bit of noise, but I do not mind that at all, if I did not focus hard to listen for the difference, I would have been fine with 100 times played LP.
So Crosley Cruiser is not bad as everyone said after all.
Oh, there's a lot of other reasons why the Cruisers are bad :-)
But hey, if you can live with what I demonstrated here and I could help you with making up your mind, then I I have achieved what I wanted to with this video.
I'm glad that some had the patience to do an actual test. Thank you it was very informative.
There's also the added factor of a 7 inch platter, it's asking for a 12 inch to get warped, especially if it's lighter than 180g
Besides the lack of counter weight, the worst aspect of those tables are the built in speakers. There's little to no vibration dampening when they're turned up. I bet if you turned the volume up on the cheap TT and played that single 100 more times it would be much worse.
Now take that 100 played record and redo the test, but this time play it "wet". See if the noise gets better or worse.
wired question maybe, but:
Are moderen LP's (made between 2000-2018) more durable then old LP's? (Like 60's/70's)
NO
Well given they're made of the same material, no. They'd be identical in durability
Definitely not in the 70s. Companies were grinding up and reusing unsold albums (paper labels and all) to repress new albums during the height of the oil crises.
hey jimbo, what about the Numark PT-01 Touring? IS that also the cheap crap ones, or would you say its a bit better then the "cheap" ones?
It looks very similar on pictures, but I have never used one, so I can't help you here, sorry.
I didn't notice the difference outside of the leading groove , but then again I am listening from laptop speakers. Also, did you use the same brand and model of stylus for both turntables?
No, I didn't use the same cartridge. The turntable on the left uses an Ortofon 2M Red. On the cheap turntable, you can't change the cartridge. The stylus itself was brand new though. My guess is that if I repeated the test with the cartridge from the cheap record player on a better and properly calibrated device, it would still sound crappy, but not do much damage at all. Beware though, because these cartridges usually come with sapphire styli, which are fine when they are new, but they don't last very long and, like any stylus, can be damaging to records when they're worn. So they need to be replaced after 35 or 50 hours. Better yet, find a diamond replacement stylus, they last at least hundreds of hours.
I have the Pioneer PLX-500. How is that? Stock cartridge and stylist though
I wanted a retro record player and wanted to be safe so I got a retro record player from 1975, it has amazing sound quality and it has anti skate, weight adjuster, and a pre amp built in. The Dynatron HFC 51. I think for those who want a retro looking player to get an real one, if they're not happy with the sound quality then they can always update the speakers.
Nice Video. Do you still have the recordings?
The fourier transform of them would bei very interesting and could really show the difference, as we would not have to relay on our ears that much.
For anybody who doesn't know, it shows how "strong" each frequency is represent during the analysed sample. (White) Noise should be distributed equally across the spectrum, while zu signal should "peak" out. It will not bei a single peak, because more than one note is played and sang throuout the song (even in a smaller Sample). The difference to noise should still bei visible. After the 100th time the noise level should be much higher, while the signal should be lower. Then the "Signal to Noise Ratio (SNR)" could be calculated and give us a compareable number. But I think the fourier spectrum would still be the most interesting part.
The spectrum plot can easily be created in Audacity for example.
Just curious: how much did the bst turntable cost? (just for purposes of comparison with other turntables)
Price for a new one was somewhere between 300 and 350 at the time. If you're interested, google Synq XTRM1. Basically the same thing.
Go for a U-turn orbit. For $175 you can get a table that compares to $500 tables and if you spend $500 on an upgraded version your table will be absolutely amazing.
Yeah but it looks like hot trash
That and you're pretty much stuck with the cartridge that comes bundled with it. No user upgradability--set tracking force and set antiskating. Pretty much has the same level of functionality as an AT LP-60 in a fulgy MDF form.
What is the turntable on the left?
Great video, all questions answered.
Danke dir, freut mich, dass es dir gefällt!
Cheap plastic turntables are great for playing old, noisy, worn records with even some warp caused by prolonged exposure to the sun!. =)
For that purpose, I bought one of this type, with an arm that weighed 6.5 grams of tracking force, to which I adapted a counterweight that helped reduce that high weight to 3.5 grams (which is within the tracking force range for proper operation of cheap ceramic cartridges): The record suffers less, the needle suffers less, the cartridge suffers less, the platter rotates more freely (less effort for the small motor and the belt), and the operation is excellent.
What was the tracking force of the cheap turntable?
Mark Hill 5 grams
I got a crosley as a gift from my significant other and now I feel bad cause I appreciate that they were nice enough to get me a record player and don’t want to be rude or ungrateful by replacing it so soon but I don’t want to ruin my records either. Especially since some of them are irreplaceable.
What is the background music for this video? Its really good!
TH-cam music library: Joe Bagale - Thank You R.G.E.
Hi! What is the model of the high end turntable that you have featured? Or better yet, what can you recommend that I should buy? Thank you.
It's not high-end at all. It's a BST PRo PR 4.5k - google "Super-oem turntable" to find similar turntables. As far as recommendations go, that depends on your budget, where you live/what is available in your country and what you already own (amplifier with/without preamp? active speakers? etc etc).
@@jimboblivesforever Thank you very much for your reply...! I am truly grateful. I am basically needing a sturdy but safe record player that will be safest for playing my collectible vinyls. $500 below will most likely be a practical price range. I assume that the model you have featured would fit the bill as far as sturdy & safety is concerned, right? I’ll check out the price after this reply. Know that your time and reviews are genuinely appreciated...!
is this the same as with the audio technica lp 60? it uses the same cartridges but seems to be built better?
No, the ATLP 60 is alright. It uses an Audio Technica AT3600L cartridge, which is NOT a ceramic cartridge. On top of that, the ATLP 60 tracks with around 3 to 4 grams, which is seen as a lot by today's standards, but is still considerably less than any crosley/steepletone/GPO etc. As the AT3600L has a spherical stylus, 3 to 4 grams max is still just about okay, in my opinion.
To clarify, the ATLP 60 is not a good turntable by any means, but it will not damage your records like the turntable in this video. To be honest, for around 100 bucks (USD or euros), I'd still go for something better from the used market, but if buying new is your only option and your budget is limited, an ATLP 60 should do the job, at least to get you started.
So the important thing here is having a counter weight and a fresh stylus? Will an entry level turntable ~100€ suffice?
Well done. Good video.
Thanks for testing this for real :)
Thanks for this.
Thank you for doing this video👏👏👏
Hello I just bought an ION Pro80, it as the same cheap stylus, but has a counterweight, is it a good idea to keep it or better send it back? I've not a big budget (max 120€) and it seems to be the best at that price.
Btw what the song?
Sorry, I can't give you a good answer to that question because I don't know that turntable.
And add to that, those people who "don't hear the difference" and "don't care much about sound quality", "not picky", rarely would notice that their stylus has worn out, and worn out stylus would put an end to those records. (BTW a styli on those Crosleys don't last longer than 30-50 hours) I have some records after those IDONTCARERERS, even back in the day, they were around. They may have no scratches but they're ruined. Thanks for the video!
Yep, those ceramic styli die quickly. The one I used in the video was brand new, BTW.
blackhawk606 and if the record is used? how ya gonna tell if that is damaged by your playing or the other owner?
2 George price. A hundred plays with the light diamond needle didn't do any harm to a record
so if they were used properly they should be ok. With bad records distortion and crackle/noise are clearly heard. Mostly on loud passages or instruments like piano or violins(I'm talking pop music here) and vocals/loud rapid tones, where there's not a lot of treble. Worn needle tends to muffle the treble and adds overall distortion. Even diamonds aren't forever so don't be a cheapskate, change your styli in time.
Totally agree! Most folks, getting into the hobby, will purchase the cheap table to get back in . Once they figure out they sound like crap they'll start to upgrade. If they're starting out with a cheapo (crosley) most likely the amp they're using is crap also. They'll figure it out. Thanks for the video!
because there is a process
folks getting into the hobby just starting to engage in vinyls obviously buy cheap tables
and you also correct in the long run they figure it out and upgrade their turntables
didnt notice anything
Neither did I, but with that said, the Crosley still looks like crap. It is made from cheap parts and not built to last.
I have original albums I bought in the late 70s and 80s that I played on an all in one Panasonic stereo. I now play them on much better gears and most of them sound very good.
Great video that says it all! What more proof does one want? Just a little remark: this record doesn't have extreme modulation as far as I can hear. The Crosley-like junk lack provisions like anti skate and the friction of the tone arm (if you can call it a tone arm, it is a scave rather) bearing, actually these things have no tone arm bearings. Extreme bass will make the needle jump forward, it skips. Very high frequencies will be dealth with almost instantly as a matter of fact. And to make things even worse, the needle points of these crappy cartridges are seldomly mounted the right way, they lean to either side so the groove will be destroyed instantly. Great video, spread the word. This junk must be destroyed before it gets the chance to play a record......
I actually tried one of my hyperdub 12'' vinyls. That thing didn't even get through the first 30 seconds of a Kode9 track without skipping wildly.
Oh, and no worries, that record was already ruined, so trying it on that turntable didn't really make things worse.
Hmm... I might make a video about that :-) It might trigger the copyright bots, but whatever...
om that song u are playing in the bg what is that, amazing. haha great clip man
TH-cam music library: Joe Bagale - Thank You R.G.E.
Excellent video!
Does the Victrola 6-in-one destroy your records too?
can you not clean them and then clear the surface noise? I have heard using wood glue works really well
If the surface noise is caused by dust and dirt, cleaning helps. But when you cause physical damage to the record itself, cleaning can't repair that.
The trick is to clean the record after that many plays , you will find it is clear again , it’s about the stylus keeping it from going blunt
While that is a good tip for keeping your records and stylus in good shape, it wouldn't prevent the damage that was done here.
+jimboblives On both turntables yes, vinyl is just a shitty format that inevitably degrades
Thank you! I've had record's over the years I know I've played multi hundred times, and they still sound hi resolution! Keep your records clean before each play, and....KEEP AN EYE ON THAT STYLUS!
Any recommendations out there???
Even most second hand or “pre-loved” vinyl you pick up from record stores in the UK has not been played 100 times. The stuff that has is immediately obvious from just looking at it.
Not the point of this video.
Glassed Saphire tips increase on the groves more cracks and distortion after a significant number of passages
True, but in this case, the stylus was brand new, and it should last 30 to 50 hours of playback until it is worn. Here, the song was about 4 minutes long and played 100 times, which amounts to less than 7 hours of usage. Hence I am confident that the stylus wear was not a factor.
BTW my perspective is admittedly somewhat different. If I were ever to be forced to buy vinyl (which I haven't done in 12 years), all that matters to me is sound quality, because I'm going to play it ONCE, when I rip it to a WAV file. But the performance required is similar. It must play the high frequencies without mistracking, it must successfully track any warps there are, and a few other things come up from time to time. Again, don't need to spend USD 20,000. but cheepnis will not do.
Not all heros wear capes
This is a great video. You actually tried it, instead of just saying "audiophiles are wrong". It all comes down to physics. A sharp needle vs soft vinyl. More tracking force and less than optimal shape of the tip = more damage.
At this point idc I have a Victrola I'll probably get another turntable one day but if my records get messed up I'll just use my records as wall decorations 🤷♂️
I must say that it was comforting to me to realize that the wear process people have warned about is so marginal (and I'd like to think I have keen hearing!). I'm not sure if my turntable is low-end because there hasn't been a lot of info on that, but if that's the only difference in sound playing my records is going to make, then I'm probably going to enjoy my turntable until it stops functioning.
I know you said that the newer turntable was a Crosley, but I was wondering what was the price range for the one you got? I've been researching different turntables and the Crosley brand can go from $ 49-120? Would you think that a turntable, regardless of the brand, would be okay to use? Also, I was wondering if either turntables can play actual vintage records from the 70's without damaging them? I would hate to damage the antique records I procured.
P.S.
If anyone has a definitive answer to these question please feel free to answer, I'd love to hear your opinion on the matter.
There seems to be a small misunderstanding. Both turntables in the video are not crosleys. The one on the right, however (the "cheap" one), is manufactured by the same company that builds most crosley turntables, and It is very similar. I bought it very cheaply from a friend, but it was around 70 euros new.
In my opinion, in the price range between 50 and 120 (dollars? Euro?), your best bet would be to go for a used record player. If it has to be a new device, an Audio Technica ATLP 60 would be a good choice in that price range (90 USD on amazon). In terms of new turntables, that is quite cheap. I wouldn't be worried about playing my records on an ATLP 60.
The actual weight in the stylus is not as great as many think. One thing you should do is replace the sapphire stylus with an available diamond stylus and this drastically improves wearing and playing. I saw a video of proper setup and playing of records on the type of TT and it made sense. They are not near as destructive as anyone would think.
Thanks for your input. The tracking force on the turntable in this video was around 6 grams (can't remember the exact figure), which is, in my personal experience, below average on these things. I had 6,9 on a "Grausch" I own (which is basically a crosley cruiser with a different brand name slapped on it). I've seen tracking forces between 5 and 7,5 grams on such turntables. Contrary to the belief of some popular youtubers, that is just too much for records, at least in the long term (which is what this test is supposed to demonstrate).
Diamond styli and sapphire styli, when in good condition, don't differ much in record wear. That's a youtube legend that is simply false. The major difference is that sapphire styli wear significantly more quickly, so they need to be replaced much more often. Also, there basically is no way to set up these kinds of turntables properly, as there is no way to adjust tracking force, antiskate or cartridge alignment.
How destructive these turntables are is demonstrated in this video.It's up to the individual viewers to decide whether they personally can live with this or not.
Great video, but another big problem with cheap ones is that the quality control isnt there, your playing russian roulette with your records. Not only that, theres often little to no aftersales support, backing or parts. Not all cheaper ones are bad but, you get what you pay for. (usually) Even some of the more expensive brands have terrible aftersales support, but theres generally a reason why anything is more expensive.
Yeah, quality control is quite awful. Weirdly, better turntables aren't much more expensive. They're less available though. You can get a crosley cruiser at basically any big-box store or cornershop. Not as easy with an ATLP60 or even a Pro-Ject Elemental (160 bucks these days). Also, one advantage these all-in-one record players definitely have is: they work out of the box, no extra amp or preamp needed. That is quite appealing to many people. It would be for me if they were not quite as horrible. If someone built a Crosley cruiser with acceptable electronics and mechanics for twice the amount of money, I'd buy it in a heartbeat as a secondary player.
Nice comparison though I thought I heard differences with the more expensive player too.
i agree that it will basically ruin your records but idk why i barely heard a difference LMAO maybe i need to listen with headphones but
LMAO OMG LOL XD lucky u you can convert all your mp3 to 96 kbs to save HD space
Armin Gamer yes
I did listen with headphone and theres not alot of different,I think if you played 1000 times then the record would still play.They made them in 60s,70s and 80s cheap record players so the record company's would know so would make sure you could play them on them over a 100 or 1000 times.Tapes do the same thing,if you play the tape over and over.
@@RETRONuts I don't hear much difference either. The Crosley record player isn't far removed from what alot of people actually played back then.
Now days records are mostly about nostalgia. If you want pop free audio, there is CD.
Records only make the crackles and the pops if you don't clean (or dust) them. You have to do it.properly, though. You can't just wipe a vinyl with a paper towel and say it's clean. There are lots of videos that way now to properly, safely, clean your records.
This is why I have a special crate of records that I don't care about! Just for use my Ion portable turntable.
Thank you for sharing this excellent video. I could hear the difference listening on car speakers with my eyes closed. For those saying they can't hear a difference, try listening to this video on your home audio/theater system and see if it becomes more clear.
Thanks for you video i owned a new turntable a pyle plttb3u insted ofvthe shitty tt i used to have.
Did you eventually muted the volume while playing the same song 100 times because you can't take it anymore? :)
Sort of - I eventually left the room and came back every four minutes to restart the players :-D
I thought that dot on your desk was a mark on my screen
Proven by test. So satisfying.
ight it's not noticeable enough for me to care.
how is the record player itself destroying the records? isn't the stylus the only part that is in contact with the grooves? and it can't be the weight of the tonearm either since that is adjustable..
some one explain to me, cos i don't get it.
This type of record player can only be bought with a very specific tonearm/stylus configuration: A ceramic cartridge and a cheap plastic tonearm with no weight to adjust tracking force. The result is an extremely high tracking force, which, in combination with the stylus type, damages the grooves of your records. On top of that, the mechanical parts of the whole turntable, including the tonearm and the stylus, are designed and built so badly, that you actually need this extremely high tracking force for the stylus to not skip all the time.
This specific, non upgradeable, combination of ceramic cartridge, unadjustable, cheap, heavy-tracking plastic tonearm and insufficient overall mechanics is being used in this exact combination on a lot of cheap turntables, especially on the novelty and portable player type. So, in conclusion, I think it's fair to simplify and say that this type of record player damages your records.
okay. that makes sense! thanks
I didn't really hear a difference between the records when you played it 100 times on the cheap turntable.
Then I sincerely recommend you visit a doctor and get your hearing checked. Seriously, no joke.
Okay, how about this.
I heard surface noise but nothing that would really make me think that cheap record players destroy the records.
Well, that's progress. But try again and listen closely, use 1080p playback (youtube changes audio quality with bitrate as well) and use decent headphones. Specifically, compare how the vocals in the vocal bit sound before and after.Same with the intro. Both sound quite a bit harsher after 100 plays. You really don't need the fabled "golden ear" to hear the difference.
If you actually don't hear it, then go ahead and feel free to buy one of those turntables. But honestly, in that case I really think you should get your ears checked - no pun intended. And remind me to never buy used records from you ;-)
I will agree that surface noise does increase and it sometimes sounds distorted, but I guess it all has to do with the preferences of sound quality. Since I'm not exactly picky with how my records sound, I mainly just settle with "I can hear the music, so it's fine with me."
Which is probably why I'm the worst record collector on the Internet.
Questhero101 You can even see the degredation in the waveforms, the difference is clearly there.
And this is not even an intense record, no tough passages or high frequencies which are the areas that degrade most.
If you have bought your vintage vinyls from ebay or pretty much everywhere else where they weren't new or unplayed and you think they sound great, chances are high they were played on something that tracks just as heavy as a cheap modern turntable.
True, but when you bought your vinyl brand new or used and in good shape (as in: not from the ten cent crate at goodwill), why not treat it as good as you can?
Were your disks pressed at the same time?
Yes. Limited run of 500, one is numbered 354, the other 355
Thanks. Great video btw.
Added a link to it on a blog post about vinyl.
100 раз слушать одну пластинку это каким фанатом нужно быть
I could hear more pops and clicks but you would after 100 times played,does this include cheap record players for the 70s and 80s then not just the Crosley Cruiser..???
Maybe, someone would have to test that. The thing is, people buy cruisers and similar turntables now, not the cheap stuff from the 70s.
But if you look,they are build the same way,the one speaker record players fron the 70s,80s had not weight on the arm,only the expense ones did,I know cos I had one once,how about these liner record players,where the arm is straight and goes a cross the record in a line,I don'r like them,I like to be able to see the record going round and been able to "Put The Needle On the Record ...and The Drum Beats Go Like This".... :D Got to Love "Pump Up The Volume"I think I played that on record a 100 times.. :D Still got it and it plays fine..?? Anyway thanks for the test,Great Video.. :D
so which is the cheap turntable that actually do minor damage to records and has good sound quality?
Define cheap :-)
Honestly, for around 100 €/$/GBP, or less, 'd probably go for something used. For some more, Fluance TTs are supposed to be pretty good, but I have never tried one. Same goes for the U-Turn Orbit. An entry level Pro-Ject turntable can be bought for around 200 new. But honestly, in my personal opinion, something decent and used for up to 50, plus a new belt and a fresh stylus will probably get you the best results on a budget.
Don’t these cheap turntables use a spring in place of a counterweight to adjust tracking force?
Surprisingly, many don't, including the one in the video and the Crosley Cruiser. No counterweight, no spring, just the pure force of the tonearm weight. The ATLP60, for example, uses a spring.
When you play the new record the soundbar isn´t grey but it is when you play "after 100 plays". Why´s the different? The soundbar should have been blue all the time....
I don't understand what you mean by soundbar.
My mistake;-) I now see that you have two different players when you play the sounds. I thought it was the same all the time. When you played the second sound, the soundbars became grey at the bottom of the first player. Sorry about that.
what if I just buy a better stylus for my crosley cruiser? wouldn't that automatically help?
Only if a.) there is a better stylus for your Crosley Cruiser and b.) if you found a way to adjust the tracking force of the tonearm. For b., the answer is: there is none. Sorry.
Zachary Scott you most certainly can. It will require a little bit of hands on knowledge about turntables tho. I received one as a gift a few years ago from my girlfriend. Not being the type of person to snub my nose up at a gift someone has given me I decided to upgrade it so I could play my records in the bedroom at a reasonable quality but at the same time not to break the bank. First thing was to glue a bolt into the back of the plastic tonearm bearing (if you can call it that) and machine a counter wight out of some steel rod, 50g is the weight I ended up with and tap the centre to match the threads with the bolt. If you hunt around on ebay you can find a headshell that will fit the tonearm that allows you to fit another style of cartridge. I went with the at95e for cost saving and let's be honest it will never sound like a top quality player. While changing the head I also rewired all connections and bypass the internal amp and speakers straight to rca outputs as the mm cartridge will require a preamp stage before the speakers I use in my bedroom. I also installed a anti skate using a very light spring installed on the inside of the player and is adjustable by a screw on the outside. After all this pissing around I popped on an acrylic platter (I already had a spare from my main turntable) and Bob's your uncle. Was it all worth it? No was it shite. It does sound allot better and I enjoy fucking around with shit to make it better but for the average Jo your best option is to put your pennys away and get a half decent turntable. But if you have a cheap one don't stop using it just because TH-cam told you not to. Use it to get you into the hobby. I have never played an album more than 100 times and I'm more likely to damage mine pissed swapping sides. They are made to be played not hung on the wall and if you fuck them so its a piece of plastic. Enjoy the music.
Just have compared in increments of 20. How many people will play a record 100 times?
For more accurate results, place the cheap TT on an uneven surface and man handle the LP with dirty fingers, because that's how people who buy those things treat them (and you can't fault them since they just don't know better yet).
Wow! I need to upgrade pronto! I have an ion player
i want to thank you for 2 things, 1 warning me about crosley turntables, and 2 for getting me into this band, i looked up the song bought the vinyls, now i got a new favorite band! now to get me a good quality turntable once the records arrive!
emptyspotlight I just purchased the Audio Technica LP-60. Its $99 and sounds way better than the Crosley/Victrola cheapies. It isn’t the best turntable by any means but it’s affordable with pretty decent sound!
emptyspotlight th-cam.com/video/E93bjpuHVK0/w-d-xo.html
UpEnYew what about the Audio Technica LP 120 cuz I have some records I have that have never been on CD or iTunes which I'd like to transfer and I've heard that one is also good too?
emptyspotlight go for it, from what I’ve heard people say, they are both great. Let me know how it goes. I may start posting some videos on my channel soon for vinyl, maybe instagram.
already ordered it, gonna pick it up next week
Just remember the cheapy turntables use sapphire (fake diamond) stylus. But even with a diamond stylus 3-5 grams tracking is like digging a ditch in your grooves
Nope. It's the cart itself. 50s players tracked very heavy. Some were 5-6 grams or worse!
Columbia even stated the tracking force is safe for 10 grams. The issue is the cheap styluses. I've got 1950s LPs that were tracked on machines that made a crosley cruiser look good and they sound great.
Not to mention that some of these crosley aren't built up to spec in factory.