I showed my Diavlo Main Gauche to a friend of mine and the first thing he did was put his thumb through the side-ring. This is an important Public Service Announcement, esp since more and more people are carrying rapier and dagger sets everywhere they go. Thanks once again.
I was just at a ren faire this weekend, a local HEMA group was doing a sparring demo, and one of them told me that the ring goes on your thumb side. I thought that made no sense. So glad you made this!
It's a shame that a HEMA guy did that. That means he's not even reading the sources he supposedly practices, which clearly show it the other way around.
@@mysticmarbles more than not reading the sources, it means that he cannot apply common sense and/or has never held the weapon in a sparring session. Had he done that, his thumb would have likely already been broken or stabbed by using such silly grip.
@@ROMANTIKILLER2 Yeah, not a great look. A lot of modern HEMA students just go to class and learn from the instructor rather than doing their own study. He might just be repeating something his instructor said. Which isn't less stupid, just a different stupid.
@@duyhungle9375 i completely agree, and i atleast personally have no issue people calling them that as long theres not the myth commonly around surrounding them what they for even though people obviously can think what they want
I was just at a HEMA event 2 weeks ago where someone was unironically telling people the proper way to hold the parrying dagger was to put your thumb through the ring because it’s a “thumb ring”
Sidenote on swordbreakers, but I find them fascinating since I could well imagine designing the teeth to a specific dimension of swords and fairly reliably letting the blade in but making it impossible to pull out (by keeping the teeth a millimeter or two tighter than the sword spine, so that they bend to let it in but lock behind it). Of course, this is purely useful for cuts, needs extensive specialized training, as well as potential retooling to the fashion of swords as it changes, but I've gotten the sense that history was full of that sort of trickery and making your niche for the weapons of the time
One more reason: if the dagger is forced out of your hand, or you fall and place your hand on the floor, there's a serious risk of the ring breaking your thumb!
This is what I was thinking! I have rings on a sword I bought and that was one of the first things I noticed lol. Wish I went for the hilt without them!
Interesting! I practice Okinawa Kobudo/Karate and my favorite weapon is the Sai which is very similar in shape to parrying daggers. We also put our thumb on the back like that for control. Note: Sai are not daggers like many believe, but rather a baton with a “cross guard” shape designed for parrying and capturing weapons.
Now I'm just imagining someone calling it a thumb ring, then after a duel not having enough thumb left to poke through the ring after they kept putting it in there.
Every time I hand someone a ring dagger for their first time, they put their thumb through that ring. I also don't recommend a thumb on the flat of the blade with a simple ring and cross dagger. Many Italian treatises show a grip that's kind of pinching with the thumb and forefinger aligned with each edge almost like a saber grip. I use a very simple small dagger with an open ring primarily because I can't imagine carrying something around that looks like moose antlers on a main mast and going about my day.
I'd like to see you do a video where you try to pin down the commonality of different sword categories (yes I know it's pretty arbitrary) at a given date and place. I'd like to know how common (or should I say, uncommon) rapiers were in, say, 1650 England, compared with, say, the northern Italian states. Tied in with that, there's likely some things to be said about links with class in some places, as well as cultural fetishism and the like
Thumb rings can be found on: dussacks, schiavonas, walloon-hilts, szablas, reitschwerters, guard-swords, stortas, and even on some complex-hilted longswords... but not daggers.
A very enjoyable video about a non-issue. I have never heard of anyone using the side-ring on a dagger to put their thumb through it. I wonder who has Matt hanged out with, or which side of the internet he was on, because he really sounded aggravated by the idea of a "thumb ring" on a dagger. 😅
Probably related to gymnasium meaning “exercise while nude”. Supposedly, one USA team for the first Modern Olympics assumed that the translation was going to be literal (just one day - the weather in Massachusetts was too cold, and there were females around, so it was left out next practice :-). The illustrations didn’t get cold, and weren’t in a position to get embarrassed.
I'd also say the reason a lot of left hand daggers were fairly minimalist is because the more stuff you add to the hilt the worse it becomes at its other function as just a dagger. Long curved crossguards and rings are snag and grab hazards at wrestling distance.
Great Video!!! I think of how you would carry the dagger on your belt and how you would grip it to draw it out. If the side ring is towards the body, it wouldn't be very comfortable and make it hard to draw. With the side ring carried pointing away from the body it would be much more comfortable plus when you draw it out the thumb would be on the opposite side of the thumb ring. How ever, your explanations are much better!!!
A point of interest: my ECW hanger has a ring and shell hand guard, with the ring on the side of the thumb (alrhough not a thumb ring of course). The sword is single edged, so there is no doubt.
Is it the Armour Class one? I picked one (slightly customised) up cheap (it was a custom order that the customer cancelled), just to spar with (out of period for me) and it's really really nice.
I want that dagger. Please expedite that. 😀 Great video Matt. Also, thanks to you and Tod for experimenting with the "swordbreaker". Very interesting to watch.
I'd argue that putting your thumb through the ring could even hurt your thumb if you lose control of the weapon in a bind, or get disarmed in grapple distance.
I'm guessing people who have never been caught in the knuckles when using blades that don't have more hand protection. Or people who really dislike their thumbs =p
All your vids are so well thought out. I took martial arts many years ago, some weapons but only entry level, and it seems to me you capture the practice and eventual expertise, haha or not, it takes to be remotely proficient - well done!
There are HEMA sail daggers with an additional ring on the opposed side of the sail - for example Poker Armory and Bloss. And I thougth, I saw some pictures of original ones as well, but haven't found them again.
It's so frustrating, like its supposed to be on the opposite side of the thumb. Of all the things, a thumb ring is exactly wrong. If anything on a left hand dagger it's more like a knuckle ring.
"it's not a thumb ring!!" Me: "Yeah, he's right! And also, you must point the blade's serrations towards the enemy so that you can saw off the arm or the shoulder if he makes a mistake too!" XD
slightly off topic, but when I watched the video I got another idea why, maybe, the cutouts are on the side they are on: if you, for whatever reason, have to use the dagger as your main weapon in your main hand, the edge is foreward and thus way more useful.
Probably will never see Matt historically examine this question, but, anyone else may wish to puzzle this out: does the 'sidering' appearance pre-date or post-war the 'nagel' of the Messer or Grossemesser? Because of Matt's vids, been given a clue why blades may have guards or quillons or other structures . . . In addition to his enthusiastic explanations . . . So interesting.
The additional information on the quillons in relation to the sword "breaker" convinces me even more that the swordbreaker/swordcatcher was not widely used because it was most effective on swords that were less common at the time
@@aasdqwwcacfwavdsvwe6013 ...never underestimate apparently obsolete weapons Broadswords would make quick work of most of these - but fall to full plate
@@aasdqwwcacfwavdsvwe6013 He showed if you are still using wide bladed swords, you are in trouble, and if you are using a thrusting sword, against a trained opponent you are also in trouble ... not gimmicky just less effective then the optimum weapon
I've seen many HEMA training sail daggers with an additional ring on the side opposite the sail but I never understood it, it should function as a thumb ring but then I can't put my finger on the backside of the blade. What's the deal with them?
Ah yes. Those are actually kits, not finished daggers. The manufacturer intends for you to grind off the ring if you want a sail dagger, and grind off the sail otherwise.
4:33 huh. So that's also why sail daggers are how they are. I was wondering why it was perpendicular to the blade (instead of built like a cutlass' guard) Edit: ah, you went into that too. And you mentioned that sometimes they are edge towards opponent.
I'd argue putting your thumb through the side ring is actually more dangerous, given that if you fail to catch a blow and it slides down the other side of your blade you are basically just giving it a nice landing pad after it cuts your thumb in half.
Hey Matt this made me think of something. If you are using the left hand dagger with your thumb on the flat of the blade vs a more standard dagger grip that must change where on the blade you're intercepting an attack. So I think with the thumb means more likely to block/parry with the flat? It seems to me parrying/blocking with the edge would be stronger and less dangerous to your thumb. And by dangerous I don't mean direct contact but hyper extension. Yes no? Would be interested to hear your thoughts thanks. 😀
But... changing my mind after learning I was wrong is HARD. I will now comb through umpteen treatises to find something that may kinda be it being a thumb ring and say that proves it.
To be fair, sometimes the hands are backwards in the treatise as well... How many can actually do that? I'm sure there is at least a couple, but....😅 Thanks for the video! Was actually wondering what the ring was for in "swordbreaker" video (forgot to look it up and might have gotten a wrong answer.). I admit the "swordbreaker" did look nice and fancy!
Only partially related, but curious if a yome might know a bit about lefthand daggers, especially with side rings, being used in the early 18th century. I see them depicted in a few fencing books of that time discussing their use. But nothing about example or historical context of their use. Anyone that has any info they can point me in the f Direction of id appreciate it.
Having watched Todd's video where you were disarmed, sticking your thumb in the ring would have served to break your thumb. Dropping a weapon is really bad, but losing the use of a thumb is worse.
You forgot to mention that it's also rotated in the wrong direction--a thumbring would be parallel to the blade, not perpendicular to it. Nevertheless, there's at least one old master, I want to say Capo Ferro or Alfieri, but it's off the top of my head, who has a few plates illustrating his index finger through the ring, and the blade held supinated (ie: Foil 6).
In videogames, assassins usually use one or two "daggers"; I assume their daggers are knifes or short swords. But what about fencing daggers? I believe it would be a nice defensive equipment, giving some blocking start to a squishy character... There are now games with fencing daggers applied as I suggest?
Been waiting the entire video for the argument that says "If you do stick your thumb through that ring, and the dagger twists too much in a certain axis in combat (for example, while parrying), it could break your thumb horribly." It seems like the strongest argument of them all to me.
Kvetun Dagger 1 has a sail and a ring on the opposite side (thumb side). For people that used it, how do you deal with the ring? In the spirit of Matt's video, does it inconvenience your grip, especially when using gloves, and would you prefer if it was not there? I'm also struggling to think of pieces that look like that (sail and ring) in museums... but I never paid too much attention to that aspect. I wonder if it was a bad choice on the part of Kvetun (but since they did update Rapier 1, they could do the same with Dagger 1).
Real question. Is there any record of people using that ring to lash the dagger to a staff to make a field expedient lance/spear? I have seen illustrations of city life where the daggers were present without swords. I suspect a dagger is good protection in daily life. But if I was up again a sword and I was not highly skilled, or even if I was, I would be better off with a spear. Thoughts?
I'm 5 seconds in and my first thought of seeing Matt put his thumb in the ring is "That looks like an excellent way to break your thumb". I have 0 experience with anything other than kitchen knives and that still looks like a terrible idea.
My question is how universal the "thumb-on-the-flat" grip for off-hand-daggers actually was. I look at a sword-catcher dagger and want to hold it in a sabre grip, so as to present the teeth directly at the edge of the sword I'm parrying. The dagger you're holding in this video is obviously designed for the thumb-on-the-flat grip, but many from the period much less so. We assume everyone used that grip for their off-hand dagger, but how certain should we really be?
![เจ็บที่ยังฮัก - ม่อน วรวิทย์ [ Official Mv ] จอนนี่มิวสิค](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/KALIGSRSjFs/mqdefault.jpg)
I showed my Diavlo Main Gauche to a friend of mine and the first thing he did was put his thumb through the side-ring.
This is an important Public Service Announcement, esp since more and more people are carrying rapier and dagger sets everywhere they go. Thanks once again.
lol
I was just at a ren faire this weekend, a local HEMA group was doing a sparring demo, and one of them told me that the ring goes on your thumb side. I thought that made no sense. So glad you made this!
It's a shame that a HEMA guy did that. That means he's not even reading the sources he supposedly practices, which clearly show it the other way around.
Goes to show you can't always trust everyone who refers to themselves as a professional
@@mysticmarbles more than not reading the sources, it means that he cannot apply common sense and/or has never held the weapon in a sparring session. Had he done that, his thumb would have likely already been broken or stabbed by using such silly grip.
@@ROMANTIKILLER2 Yeah, not a great look. A lot of modern HEMA students just go to class and learn from the instructor rather than doing their own study. He might just be repeating something his instructor said. Which isn't less stupid, just a different stupid.
Lost your chance to defeat him in combat to prove ring placement. If he believed that I imagine he has not used the dagger a lot.
Sure, placing it forwards could protect my knuckles and help me control the opponents sword. But now my thumb keeps slipping off the blood groves
Well clean the darn blood off and maybe you won't slip so much.
@@mysticmarblesor put a ring on it?
Listening to a man talking about a ring for 13min and not being bored at all! You are a showman! Great video!
When holding a messer, hook your thumb over the nail. It's a THUMBNAIL.
Ka*ching!
Thumb rings and blood grooves😂
Well atleast thumb ring is real thing
@@lalli8152at least blood grooves sound cool
They work together. You put the thumb in the ring, and when it gets cut off , the blood will flow down the groove.
@@duyhungle9375 i completely agree, and i atleast personally have no issue people calling them that as long theres not the myth commonly around surrounding them what they for even though people obviously can think what they want
Thumbrings and Bloodgrooves ... thanks, y'all have just names my next album!
I was just at a HEMA event 2 weeks ago where someone was unironically telling people the proper way to hold the parrying dagger was to put your thumb through the ring because it’s a “thumb ring”
My instinct tells me HEMA is about to enter into the McDojo arc and we will soon get incompetent fools pretending to be experts.
@@aasdqwwcacfwavdsvwe6013 oh no :(
Amazing! I would never have guessed they were bottle openers.
Sidenote on swordbreakers, but I find them fascinating since I could well imagine designing the teeth to a specific dimension of swords and fairly reliably letting the blade in but making it impossible to pull out (by keeping the teeth a millimeter or two tighter than the sword spine, so that they bend to let it in but lock behind it). Of course, this is purely useful for cuts, needs extensive specialized training, as well as potential retooling to the fashion of swords as it changes, but I've gotten the sense that history was full of that sort of trickery and making your niche for the weapons of the time
Ah yes. putting your thumb through the ring and completely past the base of the cross guard. The best way to get your thumb split like a hotdog
just use a bread slicing machine without the safety guard/shield , nets you the same result LUL
Mmmm hotdog.
Then again putting your thumb past the guard on the other side of the blade is perfectly normal.
@@keonsterDoe!!
@@mycatistypingthis5450 Well you can choose to do that or not, different from thinking the ring is designed for it
Just saw that term being used in one of the comments under Tod's video xD And i already thought to myself "what is a thumbring???"
A ring you find on the Polish Szabla. As you might imagine, a totally different beast from the ring in the video.
It's a ring used in archery, when you draw with the thumb.
It is a device used by mongolian riders to shoot their bows. :D
Or simply a piece of jewelry in my case. I wear a thumbring daily.
That black handled dagger is a beauty
One more reason: if the dagger is forced out of your hand, or you fall and place your hand on the floor, there's a serious risk of the ring breaking your thumb!
This is what I was thinking! I have rings on a sword I bought and that was one of the first things I noticed lol. Wish I went for the hilt without them!
Holy shit that royal armouries prototype looks *insanely* cool, can't wait until we hear more about the next batch.
"This side to the enemy" - is written on claymores ... Oh we are talking about swords and dagger, ah yes of course! :)
Wrong kind of Claymore, but more effective.
@@jasondismuke4837 Interesting choice of name that. Does it come from the Scottish sword?
@@markjones4457 Yes.
Here in Denmark its often referred to as the "bottle opener" since the smaller ones are quite usefull when used af one
The parrying dagger has that much cultural significance in denmark?
Not really, but im an reenactor and there tends to be bottles around after closing time :)
And here I was thinking that the term "thumbring" was just another Victorian-ism and that everyone uses but actually knows it's a knuckle guard.
Shut up geek, it's a thumb ring. Yr knuckles won't even fit in it.
Interesting! I practice Okinawa Kobudo/Karate and my favorite weapon is the Sai which is very similar in shape to parrying daggers. We also put our thumb on the back like that for control.
Note: Sai are not daggers like many believe, but rather a baton with a “cross guard” shape designed for parrying and capturing weapons.
Now I'm just imagining someone calling it a thumb ring, then after a duel not having enough thumb left to poke through the ring after they kept putting it in there.
Or the fingers to hold the sword at all!!
Ahh, that'll be interesting. I was wondering how effective these thumb rings would be. Thanks, man!
I would love to see a comparison video looking at left hand daggers alongside Japanese sai.
thank you for the video. i wasn't ready to discover that some people could think that this ring is made to protect the thumb!!!😅😅😅😅
"Thumb ring???"
That's hilarious!!
putting your thumb through that ring seems like a good way to either get it cut, or broken if the dagger twists unexpectedly
I didn't know the guard on those was off center, that's pretty cool.
Clearly, it's a cupholder that was ahead of its time.
Every time I hand someone a ring dagger for their first time, they put their thumb through that ring.
I also don't recommend a thumb on the flat of the blade with a simple ring and cross dagger. Many Italian treatises show a grip that's kind of pinching with the thumb and forefinger aligned with each edge almost like a saber grip.
I use a very simple small dagger with an open ring primarily because I can't imagine carrying something around that looks like moose antlers on a main mast and going about my day.
Also, thumb rings are for archers.
One thumb ring to rule them all...
I honestly never knew this was a question being debated. Still, it never hurts for correct information to be put out into the world.
I'd like to see you do a video where you try to pin down the commonality of different sword categories (yes I know it's pretty arbitrary) at a given date and place. I'd like to know how common (or should I say, uncommon) rapiers were in, say, 1650 England, compared with, say, the northern Italian states. Tied in with that, there's likely some things to be said about links with class in some places, as well as cultural fetishism and the like
Thumb rings can be found on: dussacks, schiavonas, walloon-hilts, szablas, reitschwerters, guard-swords, stortas, and even on some complex-hilted longswords... but not daggers.
Can't believe people are silly enough to think it's a thumb ring. Not when it's so obviously a peepee ring.
Wow. I would never have imagined that this was in question. Obviously I was wrong.
A very enjoyable video about a non-issue. I have never heard of anyone using the side-ring on a dagger to put their thumb through it. I wonder who has Matt hanged out with, or which side of the internet he was on, because he really sounded aggravated by the idea of a "thumb ring" on a dagger. 😅
The real question is why so many treatises show fencing in the nude.
The question so many of us have but are too afraid to ask.
Probably related to gymnasium meaning “exercise while nude”. Supposedly, one USA team for the first Modern Olympics assumed that the translation was going to be literal (just one day - the weather in Massachusetts was too cold, and there were females around, so it was left out next practice :-).
The illustrations didn’t get cold, and weren’t in a position to get embarrassed.
Very good pronunciation of szabla
Thank you very much for the teaching, Matt Easton. You are great. 🙏🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧
I'd also say the reason a lot of left hand daggers were fairly minimalist is because the more stuff you add to the hilt the worse it becomes at its other function as just a dagger. Long curved crossguards and rings are snag and grab hazards at wrestling distance.
Were there historical daggers that combined sail guards with upswept, angled quillons?
Great Video!!! I think of how you would carry the dagger on your belt and how you would grip it to draw it out. If the side ring is towards the body, it wouldn't be very comfortable and make it hard to draw. With the side ring carried pointing away from the body it would be much more comfortable plus when you draw it out the thumb would be on the opposite side of the thumb ring. How ever, your explanations are much better!!!
A point of interest: my ECW hanger has a ring and shell hand guard, with the ring on the side of the thumb (alrhough not a thumb ring of course). The sword is single edged, so there is no doubt.
Pardon my ignorance, but what does ECW stand for?
@@Vlad_Tepes_III ECW: English Civil War. 1642-1651.
Is it the Armour Class one?
I picked one (slightly customised) up cheap (it was a custom order that the customer cancelled), just to spar with (out of period for me) and it's really really nice.
Yes, Armour Class. Just had a thought. Could it be lefthanded?
I want that dagger. Please expedite that. 😀
Great video Matt. Also, thanks to you and Tod for experimenting with the "swordbreaker". Very interesting to watch.
This situation reminded me of the sugar stick... created to be split in the middle into two halves... but people still do tear away its end ;)
At least we aren't calling it a co-
Never put your thumb into an open ring without the owners consent.
I'd argue that putting your thumb through the ring could even hurt your thumb if you lose control of the weapon in a bind, or get disarmed in grapple distance.
The photo in the thumbnail makes me think,( that's not a knife), "THIS is a knife!".
not the video i expected waking up but i know how to hold such a dagger now
I just had a great idea for a drinking game for this video...
It's not a thumb ring, it's a prince Alber... oh, what were we talking about?
who in the world thought "ah putting my thumb through it makes it more secured" ???
I'm guessing people who have never been caught in the knuckles when using blades that don't have more hand protection. Or people who really dislike their thumbs =p
All your vids are so well thought out. I took martial arts many years ago, some weapons but only entry level, and it seems to me you capture the practice and eventual expertise, haha or not, it takes to be remotely proficient - well done!
There are HEMA sail daggers with an additional ring on the opposed side of the sail - for example Poker Armory and Bloss. And I thougth, I saw some pictures of original ones as well, but haven't found them again.
It's so frustrating, like its supposed to be on the opposite side of the thumb. Of all the things, a thumb ring is exactly wrong. If anything on a left hand dagger it's more like a knuckle ring.
Just because your thumb fits doesn't mean you should stick it in there. Valuable life lesson in general. 😄
Cheers!
"it's not a thumb ring!!"
Me: "Yeah, he's right! And also, you must point the blade's serrations towards the enemy so that you can saw off the arm or the shoulder if he makes a mistake too!" XD
0:04 i really thought you were gonna say “i’m gonna give you five seconds to shut up”
slightly off topic, but when I watched the video I got another idea why, maybe, the cutouts are on the side they are on:
if you, for whatever reason, have to use the dagger as your main weapon in your main hand, the edge is foreward and thus way more useful.
Probably will never see Matt historically examine this question, but, anyone else may wish to puzzle this out: does the 'sidering' appearance pre-date or post-war the 'nagel' of the Messer or Grossemesser?
Because of Matt's vids, been given a clue why blades may have guards or quillons or other structures . . . In addition to his enthusiastic explanations . . . So interesting.
The additional information on the quillons in relation to the sword "breaker" convinces me even more that the swordbreaker/swordcatcher was not widely used because it was most effective on swords that were less common at the time
Yeah, compared to regular parrying daggers and sail daggers it looks a bit gimmicky, if anything.
@@aasdqwwcacfwavdsvwe6013 Against Rapiers, Small swords, etc ... but it is very effective against a broadsword
Never underestimate an anomalous weapon
@@aasdqwwcacfwavdsvwe6013 ...never underestimate apparently obsolete weapons
Broadswords would make quick work of most of these - but fall to full plate
@@aasdqwwcacfwavdsvwe6013 He showed if you are still using wide bladed swords, you are in trouble, and if you are using a thrusting sword, against a trained opponent you are also in trouble ... not gimmicky just less effective then the optimum weapon
Compared to a sail hilted parrying dagger it does look like just a gimmick that substracts more than it adds.@@davidioanhedges
I've seen many HEMA training sail daggers with an additional ring on the side opposite the sail but I never understood it, it should function as a thumb ring but then I can't put my finger on the backside of the blade.
What's the deal with them?
Ah yes. Those are actually kits, not finished daggers. The manufacturer intends for you to grind off the ring if you want a sail dagger, and grind off the sail otherwise.
It's obviously a kokring
And such a practical design, just stick it in a tree at the desired hright...
I'm gonna call them thumb rings even harder now.
I honestly didn't know that people thought it was a thumbring! That's bonkers! Worse than strapped viking shields in media?
Ya saw it and was cool, too. I think of ring like a shield for fingers.
When you turn it around, it becomes a thumb breaker.
My archery thumb ring looks nothing like this...
Put them on both sides, the end of controversy.
I was expecting you to shoot a bow with your dagger's side ring!
I didn't know what that was, but now I know it's a thumb ring. /s
I think as modern people we want maximum protection, but a basket hilt probably just means less hand sniping and more arm sniping.
how would you design a sword thats half way in between a rapier and a parrying dagger and can function either way around?
I suspect you would be rather close to a side sword, albeit with a shorter blade
That is pretty convincing.
My common sense tells me that ring would have been for a staff to make it a optional spear.
Wow I never imagine that thumb rings are used to parry atacks 8)
Jeez, I've never called it a thumb ring.
If the swordman will be a bonobo it is actually a thumb ring, lol!
4:33 huh. So that's also why sail daggers are how they are. I was wondering why it was perpendicular to the blade (instead of built like a cutlass' guard)
Edit: ah, you went into that too.
And you mentioned that sometimes they are edge towards opponent.
I'd argue putting your thumb through the side ring is actually more dangerous, given that if you fail to catch a blow and it slides down the other side of your blade you are basically just giving it a nice landing pad after it cuts your thumb in half.
Hey Matt this made me think of something.
If you are using the left hand dagger with your thumb on the flat of the blade vs a more standard dagger grip that must change where on the blade you're intercepting an attack.
So I think with the thumb means more likely to block/parry with the flat?
It seems to me parrying/blocking with the edge would be stronger and less dangerous to your thumb. And by dangerous I don't mean direct contact but hyper extension.
Yes no? Would be interested to hear your thoughts thanks. 😀
But... changing my mind after learning I was wrong is HARD. I will now comb through umpteen treatises to find something that may kinda be it being a thumb ring and say that proves it.
To be fair, sometimes the hands are backwards in the treatise as well... How many can actually do that? I'm sure there is at least a couple, but....😅
Thanks for the video! Was actually wondering what the ring was for in "swordbreaker" video (forgot to look it up and might have gotten a wrong answer.). I admit the "swordbreaker" did look nice and fancy!
When it comes to daggers or a regular knife I never put my thumb like that. I've always used a hammer or ice pick grip
Thank you for this well argumented and informative video. In HEMA practices I have punished a lot of thumb ring fans :)
It could be a thumb ring provided that you are not terribly fond of your thumb.
Only partially related, but curious if a yome might know a bit about lefthand daggers, especially with side rings, being used in the early 18th century. I see them depicted in a few fencing books of that time discussing their use. But nothing about example or historical context of their use.
Anyone that has any info they can point me in the f
Direction of id appreciate it.
Having watched Todd's video where you were disarmed, sticking your thumb in the ring would have served to break your thumb. Dropping a weapon is really bad, but losing the use of a thumb is worse.
You forgot to mention that it's also rotated in the wrong direction--a thumbring would be parallel to the blade, not perpendicular to it.
Nevertheless, there's at least one old master, I want to say Capo Ferro or Alfieri, but it's off the top of my head, who has a few plates illustrating his index finger through the ring, and the blade held supinated (ie: Foil 6).
In videogames, assassins usually use one or two "daggers"; I assume their daggers are knifes or short swords. But what about fencing daggers? I believe it would be a nice defensive equipment, giving some blocking start to a squishy character... There are now games with fencing daggers applied as I suggest?
Thanks for the video. Where did you get your daggers with those guards? I am looking for ones that I can spar with.
I’m wondering if he’s just hyping interest in the new Wallace Collection swords. Damn, that’s pretty.
Fluted handle
Does it matter what direction the spiral flutes are going? Clockwise or counterclockwise??
Been waiting the entire video for the argument that says "If you do stick your thumb through that ring, and the dagger twists too much in a certain axis in combat (for example, while parrying), it could break your thumb horribly." It seems like the strongest argument of them all to me.
Seriously? If someone is 'foolish' enough to think "Thumb Ring", go ahead, let them think that. They will figure it out, I promise.
Kvetun Dagger 1 has a sail and a ring on the opposite side (thumb side). For people that used it, how do you deal with the ring? In the spirit of Matt's video, does it inconvenience your grip, especially when using gloves, and would you prefer if it was not there? I'm also struggling to think of pieces that look like that (sail and ring) in museums... but I never paid too much attention to that aspect. I wonder if it was a bad choice on the part of Kvetun (but since they did update Rapier 1, they could do the same with Dagger 1).
Real question. Is there any record of people using that ring to lash the dagger to a staff to make a field expedient lance/spear? I have seen illustrations of city life where the daggers were present without swords. I suspect a dagger is good protection in daily life. But if I was up again a sword and I was not highly skilled, or even if I was, I would be better off with a spear. Thoughts?
I'm 5 seconds in and my first thought of seeing Matt put his thumb in the ring is "That looks like an excellent way to break your thumb". I have 0 experience with anything other than kitchen knives and that still looks like a terrible idea.
Are you sure it's not a c$&k ring? 😏 This _was_ the era of codpieces after all!
I am shocked that anyone thought it was anything else other than a ring nagel to act as a guard.
My question is how universal the "thumb-on-the-flat" grip for off-hand-daggers actually was. I look at a sword-catcher dagger and want to hold it in a sabre grip, so as to present the teeth directly at the edge of the sword I'm parrying. The dagger you're holding in this video is obviously designed for the thumb-on-the-flat grip, but many from the period much less so. We assume everyone used that grip for their off-hand dagger, but how certain should we really be?