When he said "wait till you see the recoil spring" or sth along those lines in the beginning, I expected it to be massive. When he pulled the slide back with what looked like very little effort, I thought "oh please no." And when I actually saw the spring, I thought "oh God you have to be kidding. Madmen."
The recoil spring actually plays very little role in providing resistance in a blowback action. The more concerning thing is the lack of disconnecter and light weight of the slide.
I thought the same thing but was also wondering where the weight was. I thought Ian was going to show us a cutout filled with lead or a large, probably spring loaded buffer. I can’t imagine more then 200-300rd limit before it starts to get extremely dangerous for the shooter. This is why HiPoints looks so top heavy and are made of iron rich pot metal so they won’t fatigue and come apart rapidly.
Hi Ian! I'm from Barcelona and loved to find that you covered this. Really surprised to discover this little piece of our history in one of my favourite channels. And a quick note about "Tarradellas": during the Civil War was a member of the government of the Generalitat and president of the War Industries Committe. Was exiled during the dictatorship, appointed president of the Generalitat in the exile, and lived long enough to return in 1977 when Franco died, becoming the first Catalan president of the democracy.
Aerial missile or aerial torpedo 1937 by Josep Belmonte From 1937 the government of Catalonia did not interest him among others because the Spanish government did not see with good eyes that Catalonia had a parallel arms industry. their plans were delivered to the United States The Soviet Union was interested in them but the creator was sympathetic to the Catalan Republic "Spain was a federal Republic and Catalonia was integrated into it in the form of a Republic" and give them over to the United States as it is a democracy. and sympathized more with it. It was widely used in WWII for its low cost and destructive power. translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&nv=1&pto=aue&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=ca&sp=nmt4&tl=en&u=www.sapiens.cat/epoca-historica/historia-contemporania/guerra-civil-i-franquisme/el-coet-de-la-republica-catalana_12042_102.html&usg=ALkJrhh55nIUHl7AGKQtdocfWZGg8z31FQ www.sapiens.cat/epoca-historica/historia-contemporania/guerra-civil-i-franquisme/el-coet-de-la-republica-catalana_12042_102.html
I dont mean to be so off topic but does anyone know a method to get back into an Instagram account..? I somehow lost my login password. I appreciate any tricks you can offer me.
@Brady John Thanks so much for your reply. I found the site through google and im in the hacking process now. Looks like it's gonna take quite some time so I will get back to you later when my account password hopefully is recovered.
I´m from Barcelona, and I was absolutely impressed! I didn´t know these existed; a very interesting history piece indeed. I would never have thought I would hear Ian pronouncing the words "Generalitat de Catalunya" :D
So the second pattern changed practically everything with the exception of an adequate main spring, which would make the gun actually usable? Interesting strategy...
It's interesting how much effort and skill they used to make a gun that looks actually pretty damn nice, but they skimped SO hard on perhaps the one piece that is most vitally important, thus rendering all the other effort basically worthless. It seems like even just cramming two of those same shitty recoil springs in there would have been better.
The Isard spring has 28 twists, the 1911 32, the Astra 27. The thickness of the wire is about the same. In all likelyhood they had about the same stiffness when new. The stiffness of the mainspring has practically no importance in keeping the action of a blowback handgun closed for enough time to safely eject the case. It's the mass of the slide that does all the work. The only real function of a stiffer mainspring is to mitigate the felt recoil and the force with which the slide slams into the receiver at the end of it's travel, so a stiffer spring prolongs the life of the frame/slide. However, the force that has to be absorbed is the same for blowback and short recoil pistols. Infact, IE, the Hi-Point mainspring has the same stiffnes of the Glock. More than pointing to the dimension of the spring, Ian should have measured the stiffness of the spring. A smaller spring can have the same stiffness of a bigger one, it wears out quickier, and so has to be replaced more often, but the durability of the spring was probably not the main concern of the designers of this handgun.
They were made by a bunch of decentralized commie/libertarian anarchists at the end of a losing war with independance and democracy at stake, and they were still better than most of what Germany or Japan could churn out in an end-of-war situation. It's a pretty amazing feat, actually.
Catalonia also quite successfully made Astra 400 copies, in a factory in Terrassa. With the Isard, I have to wonder what was even the impetus for the design. Just because they had former employees of both Astra and Star on hand doesn't mean that mashing up the Astra 400 and Star A was a good idea.
Two gun models: Isard and F. Ascaso submachine gun: Labora font bernat and a battle tank called Sadurní en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_Catalonia
i havea reference spanish magazine called "Armas de fuego" that shows a presentation ISARD pistol gold plated with mother of pearl grips that was made special for the president of the "junta de cataluña " a beautifull example of the second patern isard with the extended barrel bushing an no grip safety , there was also a third patern of isard with a wraped coil spring like the astra 400 and tubular slide if y dont recall badly .
They probably only suffered of a accelerated wear, due to the fact that, in those manufacturing conditions, easily the steel was not of the best quality, and, while the short recoil spring can very well have the same stiffness of the long one when new, it wears out quickier.
True for anything from Spain as far as I've seen. In particular, they make some of the best kitchen and folding knives in the world. Also some of the worst. It's like you've got the masters of the craft...and then you have Jose.
The Isard spring has 28 twists, the 1911 32, the Astra 27. The thickness of the wire is about the same. In all likelyhood they had about the same stiffness when new. The stiffness of the mainspring has practically no importance in keeping the action of a blowback handgun closed for enough time to safely eject the case. It's the mass of the slide that does all the work. The only real function of a stiffer mainspring is to mitigate the felt recoil and the force with which the slide slams into the receiver at the end of it's travel, so a stiffer spring prolongs the life of the frame/slide. However, the force that has to be absorbed is the same for blowback and short recoil pistols. Infact, IE, the Hi-Point mainspring has the same stiffnes of the Glock. More than pointing to the dimension of the spring, Ian should have measured the stiffness of the spring. A smaller spring can have the same stiffness of a bigger one, it wears out quickier, and so has to be replaced more often, but the durability of the spring was probably not the main concern of the designers of this handgun.
Probably more a; "SHITSHITSHITSHTI WE NEEEEED GUNS!" Than a controlled design process where each component's expected service life was adjusted to be as long as possible for the best possible service life.
The reduced sights on the 2nd model reflects the likelihood that these pistols were used by the Catalan commissars for VERY close range back-of-the-head shots...
On the field of bizarre weapons produced in Catalonia during the Spanish Civil War it stands out the rare sub-machine gun Labora-Fontbernat. Its estimated production rounds 2,000 of these quite heavy artifacts. I long for the moment when Ian could get his hands on one and make the corresponding clip!
If I might pose a theory on the extra long barrel bushings. Being a blowback maybe they are needed to add extra mass to slow down the slide and make up for the lack of recoil spring strength.
There is a notch cut into the grips like you would expect for a lanyard loop, which makes me think the very early ones may very well had a lanyard loop!
Personally, i appreciate that they dropped the grip safety, i find that system is annoying in a pinch. Tape does wonders. Love these videos, i watch everyday
Your one of the reasons I'm becoming a gunsmith. I love 99% of your videos. Not big on the fireside chat stuff but hey. Thank you and hope to be able to meet you one day. 777
It'd kind of odd that this isn't too great because when Revolutionary Catalonia was established, production at these factories improved dramatically in both quantity and quality. Guess it was the rush for weaponry at that point so they tried to make the simplest, easiest thing to produce as fast as possible. That would naturally have a lot of oversights...
In “Homage to Catalonia” I remember Orwell talking about everyone in the Workers Militias being scared of the grenades because ‘they were all built by anarchists’ and infamously faulty. Seems that may have extended to the pistols too.
14:28 "I might consider trying to give them to my opponents." I know a particular "nefarious arms dealer" who might be able to help... Great video, sketchy gun!
The overly optimistic serial numbers made me wonder about whether any weapon is known to have been produced with a nonsequencel serial range to inflate production numbers. We had misleading unit names as an attempt to disrupt enemy intelligence operations, but did anyone attempt the same with something as simple as what got stamped on weapons?
I know for sure that at least on some occasions serial numbers would start at like 1000 or 5000 or something to make it look better, but I think in the end most people don't care that much about specific details of weapon production that it's worth the effort to obscure it in any other way. I think it wasn't until the middle of WW2 that mathematicians were able to start using serial numbers to extrapolate production figures of tanks (extremely accurately too), so I doubt it was even on people's minds at the time these guns were made.
Outstanding video, my friend! I love discovering, learning about and collecting odd pistols, to a point.😉 I definitely see the 1911 influence right away. It also appears to share the slide removal setup virtually identical to the Soviet TT 33. I do like the palm swell included in the grip’s back strap. I have an Astra 400 and it has its challenges. Not the least of which is finding supplies of the 9x23 Largo ammunition. But I do enjoy the pistol. It is a shame that the manufacturers were not permitted to go just a little further in the development of the pistol to actually produce a safe and solid pistol. Thus the difficulties that are brought on during war. Thanks again for another interesting video and have a great weekend, my friend. 👍🏻🇺🇸🦅🇺🇸
The Spanish civil war saw a lot of pistols with extended mags and shoulder stocks. Can these mags across the generations compatible with each other and are there extended mags ever made for these?
Well Catalan *IS* A dialect. Of the Occitan language, to be more precise. Which has several variants on both sides of the Pyrenees. Of course the well known collection of brainwashed historically-ignorant (but revisionist-expert) catalonian independentists would lose their shit seeing it called as such, as they insist on some kind of historical catalonian identity and supremacy that was never real. But a dialect it is. Not a spanish dialect though. That part they got right. Probably the only thing they do, but fair is fair.
According to most theories, they were made by basque gunsmiths that fled the nort after it fell to the "National's" side. There is also, at least, one known presentation 2nd type Isard (nickel plated, I think), with velvet-lined box, made for the Generalitat. The making of these pistols was most surely politically (and economically) motivated. Given the situation, and strongly suggested by the specific conditions and budget allocations in the several different "Boletin Oficial" (oficial publication of political and government decissions), plus other anecdotical evidences, tend to support this theory by some military analysts right after the war (plus some embezzling charges). Nowadays, they are used here just as "political symbols", with the R.E., ASCASO, and Labora smg's.
Those guns remind me so much of the Melcher ME1911 or Umarex 1911 blank firing guns. They function quite similarly, isassemble quite similarly and they have a similarly tiny recoil spring. And even though they only fire comparably weak 9mm PAK cartrigdes, they beat themselves to death too.
The knurled extended barrel bushing is actually kinda nice for improving ease of takedown... 9 largo in direct blowback I’d imagine when they reach a few thousand rounds the slide or frame begins to crack somewhere haha
Many of the Spanish pistols are quite looked down upon, however they did produce some nice guns as well. I have owned several Star 9mm BK and BKM pistols, as well as some Llama in 32 and 380, and a sweet little Star PD in .45 ACP, Wish I still had the BK and the PD, and those little Llama's while not the best built were just so damn cute in their being a copy of the M1911 scaled down to match the caliber. I once dreamed of having a full collection of Llama's from .22LR to .45 ACP, but never got around to putting it together, and eventually sold all but my very sweet Astra A100 in .45 ACP, once known as the "Poor Man's SIG" I still take her out to the rang for exercise a few times a year along with my Citadel cut down M1911A1
Y have to correct and extend the information y have gave abuot the ISARD pistol referenced in the "Armas cortas de el siglo xx" magazine y have. it was chrome plated not gold ,was from the second patern it was presented to the last president of the "generalitat de cataluña " in a presentation case marked 22 january 1938 and the serial number of the gun was n°00000003 . the president of the generalitat of cataluña was Mr Companys who would later died fusilated after being turn down by the german gestapo after being captured in france
I could see maybe chamber it for 30 mauser 762x25 tokarev and add as second spring around the barrel like the astra. Even a shallow locking barrel at the ejection port only wouldn't add alot of machining
Nice video, also very well historically detailed. I know it has already been pointed out in another message, but I want to insist, catalan is not a dialect. This diagram can help: upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4f/IndoEuropeanTree.svg
Catalan is a dialect. Fair enough, not of Spanish. But of the Occitan language. And if you're going to use wikipedia as a "source"... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occitano-Romance_languages
I would assume the barrel bushings were made out of something existing and that's why they changed for no reason as they ran out of certain "materials"
If it's a 9mm cal. Then the recoil spring does not need to be very long as the 1911 for a smaller grain bullet compared to heavier and higher grain needed bullet
Interesting. Never heard of these. I assume they went with blowback to simplify production- no need to locate and machine the locking lug recesses, and no link and pin, just a solid bottom shoulder lug on the barrel. The frame might also be a little simpler, since u don't have to account for the barrel tilting. I wonder if it would be feasible to make slightly reduced handloads in Largo or perhaps US 9x23 brass. Say 9x19 level or even slightly less (Glisenti?). Starting level loads in the 9x19 should have a little less pressure due to the greater volume. Might need a fluffy powder due to the space in the case. Trail Boss comes to mind, maybe Autocomp or certain others. The metallurgy on the gun would have to be checked to make sure the slide, barrel and frame are within the right range. It would be some work, but it might be an interesting project. I don't have my COTW book available right now, but i think Largo ballistics are close to 38 Super, so u would have to tone it down a bit for safety (if the gun checks out in the first place. The lack of a disconnector is concerning, but shooting slowly and carefully should mitigate that (i.e. make sure it is in battery before each shot). Just thinking out loud. Great video as always. Thank you
That must be ejecting at a VERY high pressure and slamming the slide to the rear with some extreme force. I wonder why they did not at least try to put a stronger spring in.
In fact, this guns were not made by any factory... After the Spanish Republican war production services absorved almost all the factories of the Catalan goverment by the late 1937, they had a very few resources. There was a very small workshop to repair the trucks used by the catalan government in Barcelona, you know, a mill and a lathe and hand tools. Was called "Parc mòbil de la Generalitat" in catalan language. Was there were this guns were made... Or at least the main parts, of course the springs and heat tratements were made in other places.
It is. and im sorry of fueling it, but theres somethings that i cant stop myself from trying to rebate. Too many ultra nacionalist and Franco loving people still around. The weapon comes from a war in wich of 11 milion spaniards, 1 milion got killed and an estimated three quarters of a milion had to flee the country. Thats something that puts a heavy load in anything related to that period.
We in the U.S. are fortunate that we can buy the highest quality pistols in the world. These pistols remind me of the Chechen home made automatic submachine guns and the 1911 copies made in garages in the Philippines.
The barrel looks very similar to the QS Armi, an italian made blowback 1911 which it was claimed to have some magical dalayed blowback system but no one has showed proofs about that.
Every engineer was waiting for a heavy stranded recoil spring. In the back of our minds. We where thinking finally someone did blowback right. Nope done worse than ever!
11:30 the rationale for the extended bushing is completely unknown... Me knowing how the Spanish like their stylistic choices: it gives them plausible deniability for when the US came to sue them for stealing the 1911
9 mm Largo is actually the same cartridge as 9x23 mm Bergmann IIRC. However the Spanish were the only ones using it in large quantities, so their 9 mm Largo designation stuck around.
No Jim the Largo case length is 9x23mm, 2 mm longer than a 9mm Parabellium (9x21mm),really more like the old .38 Super in energy. The 9mm Largo has more internal volume for more smokeless powder than other 9mm rounds.
When he said "wait till you see the recoil spring" or sth along those lines in the beginning, I expected it to be massive. When he pulled the slide back with what looked like very little effort, I thought "oh please no."
And when I actually saw the spring, I thought "oh God you have to be kidding. Madmen."
I thought the exact same thing lol
The recoil spring actually plays very little role in providing resistance in a blowback action. The more concerning thing is the lack of disconnecter and light weight of the slide.
Craftsmen prob ran out of springs and had to strip ballpoint pens.
Jeez, I've seen beefier springs in .22LRs.
I thought the same thing but was also wondering where the weight was. I thought Ian was going to show us a cutout filled with lead or a large, probably spring loaded buffer. I can’t imagine more then 200-300rd limit before it starts to get extremely dangerous for the shooter. This is why HiPoints looks so top heavy and are made of iron rich pot metal so they won’t fatigue and come apart rapidly.
"And theres a 1911 for comparison" *Nonchalantly lays a original M1911 on the table*
Ian keeps a small collection of original antique guns just for such occasions, I am sure.
@@weaponizedemoticon1131 can't he just take any weapon and turn it into a rare original? Like the other Jesus could do with water and wine?
What? You don't have an original 1911 just laying around?
He's Gun Jesus. He can turn metal into firearms!
You must not have been around for the bullpup fg-42 prototype video
Hi Ian! I'm from Barcelona and loved to find that you covered this. Really surprised to discover this little piece of our history in one of my favourite channels. And a quick note about "Tarradellas": during the Civil War was a member of the government of the Generalitat and president of the War Industries Committe. Was exiled during the dictatorship, appointed president of the Generalitat in the exile, and lived long enough to return in 1977 when Franco died, becoming the first Catalan president of the democracy.
Thanks - I didn't know that!
Its a shame that the weapons museum on Montjuic no longer exists.
They had a great collection.
Turns out that pistol design and manufacturing Izard-er than you think.
10/10 pun, congratulations sir.
booooo
Leave the internet and never come back.
Damn you, you beat me to the pun!
get out
Looks at recoil spring
...
Ian I didn't know you reviewed airsoft guns.
If I had to have a hi-point I would want it to look like a 1911 too.
yeah, 380 chambering may have made more sense
Aerial missile or aerial torpedo 1937 by Josep Belmonte From 1937
the government of Catalonia did not interest him among others because the Spanish government did not see with good eyes that Catalonia had a parallel arms industry.
their plans were delivered to the United States
The Soviet Union was interested in them but the creator was sympathetic to the Catalan Republic
"Spain was a federal Republic and Catalonia was integrated into it in the form of a Republic"
and give them over to the United States as it is a democracy.
and sympathized more with it.
It was widely used in WWII for its low cost and destructive power.
translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&nv=1&pto=aue&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=ca&sp=nmt4&tl=en&u=www.sapiens.cat/epoca-historica/historia-contemporania/guerra-civil-i-franquisme/el-coet-de-la-republica-catalana_12042_102.html&usg=ALkJrhh55nIUHl7AGKQtdocfWZGg8z31FQ
www.sapiens.cat/epoca-historica/historia-contemporania/guerra-civil-i-franquisme/el-coet-de-la-republica-catalana_12042_102.html
Maybe it wasn't readily available.
I dont mean to be so off topic but does anyone know a method to get back into an Instagram account..?
I somehow lost my login password. I appreciate any tricks you can offer me.
@Tristen Brooks instablaster ;)
@Brady John Thanks so much for your reply. I found the site through google and im in the hacking process now.
Looks like it's gonna take quite some time so I will get back to you later when my account password hopefully is recovered.
I´m from Barcelona, and I was absolutely impressed! I didn´t know these existed; a very interesting history piece indeed. I would never have thought I would hear Ian pronouncing the words "Generalitat de Catalunya" :D
viste la bandera de la Corona Aragonesa? la Virgen del Pilar dice ...
There was an article about them wtitten in 1988 in Armas y Municiones fronñm Spain and it is a well known collector piece among spanish collectors.
@@patolucaspato163 if you knew the right origin of it your brain will explode
This is the second video in a row that Ian has featured a firearm with mechanics of those worthy of a Mekboy. Gork and Mork would be proud.
Just a little more Dakka.
A true ork gun would be held together with duct tape.
@@sniperblast they don't even need duct tape, they just have to believe it works hard enough and they could make do with literally nothing but a pipe.
So the second pattern changed practically everything with the exception of an adequate main spring, which would make the gun actually usable? Interesting strategy...
Maybe they thought the extra slide length, barrel and the extended bushing would add enough mass to help the spring?
It’s a bold strategy Sqeeye, let’s see if it pays off for ‘em.
Maybe the gun is actually shot backwards and you point the slide at your enemies so it whacks them over thejr heads
We will just leave a box of these out so they will be captured and used by our enemies.
You use it until the slide wobbles and then throw it at your opponent hoping it explodes
It's interesting how much effort and skill they used to make a gun that looks actually pretty damn nice, but they skimped SO hard on perhaps the one piece that is most vitally important, thus rendering all the other effort basically worthless. It seems like even just cramming two of those same shitty recoil springs in there would have been better.
The Isard spring has 28 twists, the 1911 32, the Astra 27. The thickness of the wire is about the same. In all likelyhood they had about the same stiffness when new.
The stiffness of the mainspring has practically no importance in keeping the action of a blowback handgun closed for enough time to safely eject the case. It's the mass of the slide that does all the work. The only real function of a stiffer mainspring is to mitigate the felt recoil and the force with which the slide slams into the receiver at the end of it's travel, so a stiffer spring prolongs the life of the frame/slide. However, the force that has to be absorbed is the same for blowback and short recoil pistols. Infact, IE, the Hi-Point mainspring has the same stiffnes of the Glock. More than pointing to the dimension of the spring, Ian should have measured the stiffness of the spring. A smaller spring can have the same stiffness of a bigger one, it wears out quickier, and so has to be replaced more often, but the durability of the spring was probably not the main concern of the designers of this handgun.
They were made by a bunch of decentralized commie/libertarian anarchists at the end of a losing war with independance and democracy at stake, and they were still better than most of what Germany or Japan could churn out in an end-of-war situation. It's a pretty amazing feat, actually.
could they be "modified" with just a better spring and all the original parts and work better?
@@EidolonSpecus Yeah like, these are guns that they were making after their proper factories were lost.
How about wrapping the spring around the barrell?
Catalonia also quite successfully made Astra 400 copies, in a factory in Terrassa.
With the Isard, I have to wonder what was even the impetus for the design. Just because they had former employees of both Astra and Star on hand doesn't mean that mashing up the Astra 400 and Star A was a good idea.
I had no idea that Catalonia (where I live) made this pistol, now I know that it manufactured the isard and the labora-fontbernat submachine gun
Two gun models: Isard and F. Ascaso submachine gun: Labora font bernat and a battle tank called Sadurní
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_Catalonia
i havea reference spanish magazine called "Armas de fuego" that shows a presentation ISARD pistol gold plated with mother of pearl grips that was made special for the president of the "junta de cataluña " a beautifull example of the second patern isard with the extended barrel bushing an no grip safety , there was also a third patern of isard with a wraped coil spring like the astra 400 and tubular slide if y dont recall badly .
Another interesting piece of firearms history, thank you for these Ian
I love this gun! They used to make these pistols in the town I live. A friend of mine owns one in factory-new condition and it's a beauty!
I hope he never tries to shoot it. If he threw modern ammo in that thing, he'd be likely to eat slide.
Just don't shoot it!
load it for 200fps with a 50 grain bullet.
For now it's just on display 😊
They probably only suffered of a accelerated wear, due to the fact that, in those manufacturing conditions, easily the steel was not of the best quality, and, while the short recoil spring can very well have the same stiffness of the long one when new, it wears out quickier.
Spanish Pistols seem to be either really good or really bad.
I'd take a spanish postol over japanese pistols any day
Gotta give them some credit since these were made at the tail end of the war so they were pretty last ditch.
I mean the Japanese pistols weren’t that bad. Really if anything just a little underpowered and temperamental.
TheGlane98 I'd rather have a type 94 nambu... I'll take my chances.
True for anything from Spain as far as I've seen. In particular, they make some of the best kitchen and folding knives in the world. Also some of the worst.
It's like you've got the masters of the craft...and then you have Jose.
My grandfather used to make the woodstock of the "naranjeros" in Valencia, a copy of the Erma submachinegun.
The Isard spring has 28 twists, the 1911 32, the Astra 27. The thickness of the wire is about the same. In all likelyhood they had about the same stiffness when new.
The stiffness of the mainspring has practically no importance in keeping the action of a blowback handgun closed for enough time to safely eject the case. It's the mass of the slide that does all the work. The only real function of a stiffer mainspring is to mitigate the felt recoil and the force with which the slide slams into the receiver at the end of it's travel, so a stiffer spring prolongs the life of the frame/slide. However, the force that has to be absorbed is the same for blowback and short recoil pistols. Infact, IE, the Hi-Point mainspring has the same stiffnes of the Glock. More than pointing to the dimension of the spring, Ian should have measured the stiffness of the spring. A smaller spring can have the same stiffness of a bigger one, it wears out quickier, and so has to be replaced more often, but the durability of the spring was probably not the main concern of the designers of this handgun.
Probably more a; "SHITSHITSHITSHTI WE NEEEEED GUNS!" Than a controlled design process where each component's expected service life was adjusted to be as long as possible for the best possible service life.
The reduced sights on the 2nd model reflects the likelihood that these pistols were used by the Catalan commissars for VERY close range back-of-the-head shots...
On the field of bizarre weapons produced in Catalonia during the Spanish Civil War it stands out the rare sub-machine gun Labora-Fontbernat. Its estimated production rounds 2,000 of these quite heavy artifacts.
I long for the moment when Ian could get his hands on one and make the corresponding clip!
I just subscribed recently. I make it a point to watch at least two of your videos a day. Great work. Keep it up.
If I might pose a theory on the extra long barrel bushings. Being a blowback maybe they are needed to add extra mass to slow down the slide and make up for the lack of recoil spring strength.
Would the wear and tear on the palm side of that one pistol mean, that despite being less-than-good, it still saw heavy use?
There is a notch cut into the grips like you would expect for a lanyard loop, which makes me think the very early ones may very well had a lanyard loop!
It would be interesting to see a top ten list of guns that you find to scary to shoot.
Personally, i appreciate that they dropped the grip safety, i find that system is annoying in a pinch. Tape does wonders. Love these videos, i watch everyday
I think the point of the knurled section on the barrel bushing is to help you pinch and rotate it for disassembly
Catalonia has attempted lots of things... :|
And failed most of them.
Lol
At least we try.
E69_Sh1nden If at first you don't succeed, I'm not testing your prototype pistols.
Of course.
Your one of the reasons I'm becoming a gunsmith. I love 99% of your videos. Not big on the fireside chat stuff but hey. Thank you and hope to be able to meet you one day. 777
It'd kind of odd that this isn't too great because when Revolutionary Catalonia was established, production at these factories improved dramatically in both quantity and quality. Guess it was the rush for weaponry at that point so they tried to make the simplest, easiest thing to produce as fast as possible. That would naturally have a lot of oversights...
It's that fireplace again!
Megaman3300 It's getting to be my favorite fireplace.
Megaman3300 I'm convinced Mr. Oak Mantle had the largest collection of historical pistols... in the world.
In “Homage to Catalonia” I remember Orwell talking about everyone in the Workers Militias being scared of the grenades because ‘they were all built by anarchists’ and infamously faulty. Seems that may have extended to the pistols too.
14:28 "I might consider trying to give them to my opponents." I know a particular "nefarious arms dealer" who might be able to help... Great video, sketchy gun!
So, I’m going to guess we won’t be seeing Ian shoot one of these.
Probably no. But if we see him shooting this, we probably won't see him shooting anithing anymore.
The overly optimistic serial numbers made me wonder about whether any weapon is known to have been produced with a nonsequencel serial range to inflate production numbers.
We had misleading unit names as an attempt to disrupt enemy intelligence operations, but did anyone attempt the same with something as simple as what got stamped on weapons?
I know for sure that at least on some occasions serial numbers would start at like 1000 or 5000 or something to make it look better, but I think in the end most people don't care that much about specific details of weapon production that it's worth the effort to obscure it in any other way. I think it wasn't until the middle of WW2 that mathematicians were able to start using serial numbers to extrapolate production figures of tanks (extremely accurately too), so I doubt it was even on people's minds at the time these guns were made.
RealLuckless c96s at Mauser did that they would skip 10000 or so every often.
Outstanding video, my friend! I love discovering, learning about and collecting odd pistols, to a point.😉
I definitely see the 1911 influence right away. It also appears to share the slide removal setup virtually identical to the Soviet TT 33. I do like the palm swell included in the grip’s back strap.
I have an Astra 400 and it has its challenges. Not the least of which is finding supplies of the 9x23 Largo ammunition. But I do enjoy the pistol.
It is a shame that the manufacturers were not permitted to go just a little further in the development of the pistol to actually produce a safe and solid pistol. Thus the difficulties that are brought on during war.
Thanks again for another interesting video and have a great weekend, my friend. 👍🏻🇺🇸🦅🇺🇸
The Spanish civil war saw a lot of pistols with extended mags and shoulder stocks. Can these mags across the generations compatible with each other and are there extended mags ever made for these?
This reminds me a lot of the crude Vietnamese 1911 styled pistol you showed off years ago.
Mother Anarchy sure does love her sons
you can make a video about "Labora Fontbernat"? Is also a catalan machinegun with little information known. Thanks
The extended bushing was maybe an attempt to increase the mass of the slide and make the gun more usuable.
Ian, next time you're in the UK, come to the Royal Armouries at Fort Nelson on the south coast. Amazing collection. You'll love it.
Oh dear, he called catalan a dialect. He will never hear the end of it...
Well Catalan *IS* A dialect. Of the Occitan language, to be more precise. Which has several variants on both sides of the Pyrenees. Of course the well known collection of brainwashed historically-ignorant (but revisionist-expert) catalonian independentists would lose their shit seeing it called as such, as they insist on some kind of historical catalonian identity and supremacy that was never real. But a dialect it is.
Not a spanish dialect though. That part they got right. Probably the only thing they do, but fair is fair.
@@ramjb what's the occitan language?? Anybody speaks occitan?
According to most theories, they were made by basque gunsmiths that fled the nort after it fell to the "National's" side.
There is also, at least, one known presentation 2nd type Isard (nickel plated, I think), with velvet-lined box, made for the Generalitat.
The making of these pistols was most surely politically (and economically) motivated.
Given the situation, and strongly suggested by the specific conditions and budget allocations in the several different "Boletin Oficial" (oficial publication of political and government decissions), plus other anecdotical evidences, tend to support this theory by some military analysts right after the war (plus some embezzling charges).
Nowadays, they are used here just as "political symbols", with the R.E., ASCASO, and Labora smg's.
Those guns remind me so much of the Melcher ME1911 or Umarex 1911 blank firing guns. They function quite similarly, isassemble quite similarly and they have a similarly tiny recoil spring. And even though they only fire comparably weak 9mm PAK cartrigdes, they beat themselves to death too.
The story of the little recoil spring that could - for a short while at least, until you realize what it’s up against
Find information about "Labora Fontbernat". It was a submachine gun of Catalan origin. Very interesting.
th-cam.com/video/meQoamlfRqA/w-d-xo.html
When I saw the thumbnail I instantly thought of the Podbyrin 9.2 mm for some reason.
The UZI 9 MILIMETAAA
@@sarchlalaith8836 😘
Thank you GunJesus, very cool!
The knurled and extended barrel bushing would make it easier to remove since I'm sure it was not made to close tolerances.
I think the extra cut on the ejection port is referred to as a "relieved" ejection port
The knurled extended barrel bushing is actually kinda nice for improving ease of takedown... 9 largo in direct blowback I’d imagine when they reach a few thousand rounds the slide or frame begins to crack somewhere haha
My best guess for that barrel bushing is it is supposed to be easier to remove or they wanted to make them look like Astras.
...O used to have an Astra 400...hard to believe any spring could be worse that that spring...
Wow, they're rought, I've got bb guns with tidier manufacturing!
Probably to aid in bushing removal for disassembly
Yeah, 1911 disassembly had never been a piece of cake. That was actually an improvement.
Always so stoked when I see a video posted a few minutes ago I’m like “hi Ian I waited right here for you”
That tiny little recoil spring is enough to convince me to never fire one of those things lol
Many of the Spanish pistols are quite looked down upon, however they did produce some nice guns as well. I have owned several Star 9mm BK and BKM pistols, as well as some Llama in 32 and 380, and a sweet little Star PD in .45 ACP, Wish I still had the BK and the PD, and those little Llama's while not the best built were just so damn cute in their being a copy of the M1911 scaled down to match the caliber. I once dreamed of having a full collection of Llama's from .22LR to .45 ACP, but never got around to putting it together, and eventually sold all but my very sweet Astra A100 in .45 ACP, once known as the "Poor Man's SIG" I still take her out to the rang for exercise a few times a year along with my Citadel cut down M1911A1
I think the 7 digit serial number shows how hopeful they were that they would win the war and establish a standing army
Y have to correct and extend the information y have gave abuot the ISARD pistol referenced in the "Armas cortas de el siglo xx" magazine y have. it was chrome plated not gold ,was from the second patern it was presented to the last president of the "generalitat de cataluña " in a presentation case marked 22 january 1938 and the serial number of the gun was n°00000003 . the president of the generalitat of cataluña was Mr Companys who would later died fusilated after being turn down by the german gestapo after being captured in france
I could see maybe chamber it for 30 mauser 762x25 tokarev and add as second spring around the barrel like the astra. Even a shallow locking barrel at the ejection port only wouldn't add alot of machining
OMG one gun with the emblem if Barcelona
Nice video, also very well historically detailed. I know it has already been pointed out in another message, but I want to insist, catalan is not a dialect. This diagram can help: upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4f/IndoEuropeanTree.svg
Catalan is a dialect. Fair enough, not of Spanish. But of the Occitan language.
And if you're going to use wikipedia as a "source"...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occitano-Romance_languages
11:26 my guess would be No bushing tool and varying tolerances .
damn this high cost hand grenade is even nicer than that vietcong 1911-style hand grenade u reviewed a while back
I would assume the barrel bushings were made out of something existing and that's why they changed for no reason as they ran out of certain "materials"
Would the extended barrel bushing effect accuracy?
Obviously it makes it easier to remove
If it's a 9mm cal. Then the recoil spring does not need to be very long as the 1911 for a smaller grain bullet compared to heavier and higher grain needed bullet
I'm from Catalonia and I found this quite interesting. Nice video!
That recoil spring makes a guy wonder which end of the muzzle is more dangerous to be on.
Interesting. Never heard of these. I assume they went with blowback to simplify production- no need to locate and machine the locking lug recesses, and no link and pin, just a solid bottom shoulder lug on the barrel. The frame might also be a little simpler, since u don't have to account for the barrel tilting. I wonder if it would be feasible to make slightly reduced handloads in Largo or perhaps US 9x23 brass. Say 9x19 level or even slightly less (Glisenti?). Starting level loads in the 9x19 should have a little less pressure due to the greater volume. Might need a fluffy powder due to the space in the case. Trail Boss comes to mind, maybe Autocomp or certain others. The metallurgy on the gun would have to be checked to make sure the slide, barrel and frame are within the right range. It would be some work, but it might be an interesting project. I don't have my COTW book available right now, but i think Largo ballistics are close to 38 Super, so u would have to tone it down a bit for safety (if the gun checks out in the first place. The lack of a disconnector is concerning, but shooting slowly and carefully should mitigate that (i.e. make sure it is in battery before each shot). Just thinking out loud. Great video as always. Thank you
My friend showing me how a high capa works
i love the aesthetics of them if nothing else .
That must be ejecting at a VERY high pressure and slamming the slide to the rear with some extreme force. I wonder why they did not at least try to put a stronger spring in.
In fact, this guns were not made by any factory... After the Spanish Republican war production services absorved almost all the factories of the Catalan goverment by the late 1937, they had a very few resources. There was a very small workshop to repair the trucks used by the catalan government in Barcelona, you know, a mill and a lathe and hand tools. Was called "Parc mòbil de la Generalitat" in catalan language. Was there were this guns were made... Or at least the main parts, of course the springs and heat tratements were made in other places.
Maybe one day you can do a review of the bolt action "Manresa rifle" and the "Labora" submachine gun, both cool catalan Spanish Civil War stuff.
the comment section is going to be a dumpster fire
It's the internet after all
FOR THE EMPRAH!
It is. and im sorry of fueling it, but theres somethings that i cant stop myself from trying to rebate. Too many ultra nacionalist and Franco loving people still around. The weapon comes from a war in wich of 11 milion spaniards, 1 milion got killed and an estimated three quarters of a milion had to flee the country. Thats something that puts a heavy load in anything related to that period.
The should have named these guns HAZARD instead of ISARD.
They went poetic in that :-P
Another cool interesting video.
You should do some test for any of these see how dangerous they are
"can you put 9mm Largo in a 1911 pistol" i feel the question is bound to come
It looks like to me the barrel bushing knurling would help you get the bushing off the gun!
We in the U.S. are fortunate that we can buy the highest quality pistols in the world. These pistols remind me of the Chechen home made automatic submachine guns and the 1911 copies made in garages in the Philippines.
The knurled bushing would allow the shooter to disassemble the gun with out a bushing wrench.
Wonder how many are currently being cleaned up?
The barrel looks very similar to the QS Armi, an italian made blowback 1911 which it was claimed to have some magical dalayed blowback system but no one has showed proofs about that.
Every engineer was waiting for a heavy stranded recoil spring. In the back of our minds. We where thinking finally someone did blowback right. Nope done worse than ever!
Reminds me of the mystery homemade Vietnamese 1911
11:30 the rationale for the extended bushing is completely unknown...
Me knowing how the Spanish like their stylistic choices: it gives them plausible deniability for when the US came to sue them for stealing the 1911
Not to be ultra picky, but catalan is a language, not a dialect...they used those guns for that reason as well as fighting franquism.
The second run barrel bushing would be much easier to remove.
As a catalan myself, it hurt when you called the Catalan language a dialect
For me it looks like that small gunsmith were producing the parts. And than they were assembled
I'd really love to see what firing one of those was like... I see many an ice pack being necessary...
Cool - thanks Ian :)
"Senor can we have Star 1911?"
"We have Star 1911 at home"
*Star 1911 at home:*
Isn't the 9mm largo basically the same as 9mm short or what we call a .380?
"largo" means long so i don't think it's the same as short
No.
9 mm Largo is actually the same cartridge as 9x23 mm Bergmann IIRC. However the Spanish were the only ones using it in large quantities, so their 9 mm Largo designation stuck around.
No Jim the Largo case length is 9x23mm, 2 mm longer than a 9mm Parabellium (9x21mm),really more like the old .38 Super in energy. The 9mm Largo has more internal volume for more smokeless powder than other 9mm rounds.
@@j.granger1120 9 mm Parabellum is 9x19, not 9x21
An Isard is an chamois and therefore a more of a goat than an antilope. But cool gun though!
And therefore tastier :)