I remember all the WoW killers that came and went. I always wished them success as I hated WoW for a variety of reason, but knew they never would, then finally Final Fantasy XIV kicked them off their pedestal, sure, but certainly didn't kill them (though it seems Blizzard is making a solid effort themselves).
Reminded of whenever a new platform fighter would be announced and people would immediately call it "the Smash Bros killer" rather than allowing it to stand on its own.
Personally, I'm starting to feel all these "X is going to destroy Y" narratives are caused by fear of missing out - or, in this case, fear of committing to something that may not end up being the best thing ever, because of a fear that no-one will ever join you in a second-best game, and that your personal enthusiasm for a thing does not get you any cred in an environment favouring another thing.
As somone who lived through early WoW, every goddamn MMORPG that came out was "the WoW killer." No. They were not. Some of them were great games, like LotrO, but well, history.
@@neetfreek9921 there are plenty of games that shake up the d20 fantasy space. Most people don't bother to look beyond d&d in the same way Warhammer dominates the wargaming space, but the galaxy of other fantasy ttrpgs is quite vast and grows larger all the time. Shadowdark, Dragonbane, OSE (and its OSR brethren), Mork Borg, PF2e, PbtA games, DCC, LotP, et. al. all offer different gaming experiences either in mechanics or aesthetics, or both. Yet most people will run a mile when you suggest anything other than D&D.
Something always has to be a "killer" and not just another competitor in the space. Wish people would just let things exist without worry about if it's going to somehow "dethrone" 5e. Each game system is made to facilitate a certain kind of gameplay. It's why some people like 5e best, while others may like PBTA or pf2e. People need to get this thinking out of their head because all it does it inadvertently cheapen the system in the eyes of the public. a "killer" ends up being very reductive.
Agreed. Obviously people can have favorites and preferences in systems, hell just this year I tried a new system that defeated all fantasy-based rpgs Ive tried beforehand, but trying to tell everyone that this system that’s not even out yet is going to “kill” something else with no real reasoning behind it is just going to go bad in the long run. And this applies not just to ttrpgs, but video games as well. I remember when everyone kept calling Humankind the “Civ killer” to the point the devs themselves said they never presented themselves as such
@@craftsmenMC Yeah, I hear you. Personally speaking I've left 5e for pf2e but it's mainly due to it delivering an experience or freedom I was wanting out of 5e. Oh I absolutely agree it's not exclusive to ttrpgs, I only talked in that space since daggerheart was the subject, but you see it all the time in the videogame space. I don't want "killers" I want competitors, because if there's a threat to the dominance of something in the genre then the competition spurs innovation, and hopefully in terms of price can protect the consumers too.
@@waifusmith4043 amen to that. Either way though I hope the new games coming out do well, even if I’m not interested in playing and regardless of what people label them
It's all a real capitalist perspective when people go "this is the x-killer," but you have to keep in mind that games are not like businesses. Jenga can't buy out Pickup Stix and make a hostile-takeover of Linkin Logs. It's only in capitalism that business starts wide and goes tall when one of the options gets a little ahead of the others such that it can eat the rest. If I had to play Ticket to Ride every night because it killed all other board games, then board games would be dead to me, no matter how much I think TtR slaps.
Definitely excited for Daggerheart, however I do wonder if (since it's Critical Role's product, and it'll likely get some actual play videos on their channel devoted to it around its launch time) just how prevalent the pressure to "run these games exactly like Matt/whoever GMs. the liveplay" will be.
Oh they'll definitely do videos to promote it like they have been doing with Candle Obscura. They are still a business and the best way for them to promote their new produced is to show them playing it.
I'm glad that here in Italy, we first check the rules and the reference fiction of the game before naming it "the new X" or "the Y killer"...and when it's done by someone that isn't in the developing team of the game, normally we ignore them 😂 but if it's the team that use that type of marketing...it's always a bad move.
My take: Critical Role is not trying to "kill" DnD, they are trying to make sure WoTC doesn't screw over Critical Role. As the OGL debacle showed, WoTC is totally willing to gut the goose if they think they have a chance at a golden egg. Critical Role needs to maintain full control of their IP, and they can't do that if they are stuck with a dependency on someone else's game system. This is Critical Role insuring that they cannot be screwed over by WoTC or anyone else, and will certainly carry forward on the Daggerheart system with the next campaign.
It's even *simpler* than 5e. I can't imagine investing much time into it for most of the community. It'll have a niche, but I'll be surprised if it even gets Pathfinder levels of popularity.
Reminds me of the game 'Svnt Dracones' with the mention of a 2-die system, save they have a scaling thing where the harder the check compared to your stats, the lower dice you had to use. Like, doing a charisma check. They say it's rank three, but you only have a 2 in the stat. The base-if you match the rank-is a 2d8. But in this case, it'd be a 1d8+1d6. Modifiers can overcome that, or even people helping, but...yeah.
I went to ups to print out some quick rules lists for a new player to have at the table this Sunday. I accidentally sent the basic rules file. I never realized it was 180 pages until that happened.
Dnd fans complaining about new editions being too easy goes all the way back to ADnD. These gatekeepy fucks who hate everything that isn’t a grinding slog killed this hobby for me for literally 20+ years and I've just picked it up again in the last couple of years. People who freak out over the idea that other people enjoy different fun from them are the real dnd killers.
I'm mad at you Crispy. You made me buy the Flee, Mortals! hardcover which was highly expensive to get shipped to Australia!!! lul. Keep doing your stuff my dude. Really enjoy your perspectives on things and all the content you produce.
As a gamer who loves RGP’s I hate it when people say “This game is going to be THE Skyrim killer”. They say that to any game that is an open world RPG with dragons or something remotely similar to Skyrim in premise, only to fall flat. Skyrim isn’t perfect, mods are the sole reason for its popularity in both deviants and normal people. But just because a game has a similar theme/ style isn’t going to make it a killer of the game that made the genre popular.
Glad you mentioned WoW. That was the first example that came into my mind. In a world where the Barbie movie destroyed the box office, I'll say anything is possible. Thought Barbie is a big name still.
As a pokemon and digimon / mon game collecting genre the dagger heart rant is a mood. The pokemon digimon comparison has always been dumb both di their own thing and please let indie mon games just be indie mon games
THE OWL HOUSE !!! I've jumped into the bandwagon earlyer this summer and I loved it so much too ! Curse disney for canceling it ! è_é I didn't know about the comics, i'm gonna dive into this too ! Thanks so much :D
In the 90s a lot of Marvel Comic's hot artists quit and stated their own comic book company... Image Comics. It was going to be a major player in comic and Marvel was going to die from losing such talent. Marvel comics was just out of a bankruptcy and was still in the middle of lawsuits. Their properties were licensed to multiple movie studios. They were going to hurt. This Image Comics would knock Marvel to number two. DC Comics will fall to number three. Currently Image Comics is barely at number three... far in the distance. Dark Horse Comics, the previous number three and Marvel killer is barely holding on. As one radio talk show host said, he was aiming for number three... because everybody tries to be number one and two... And it never works out.
I don't need something to replace 5e. I want something to supplant PF2 on the lighter end. It's also using d12s, which are the prettiest dice with the most satisfying roll characteristics. I am intrigued.
Crispy it was okay you told the players to stick together. The most important rule for D&D players is don't split the party. Particularly not when the party is already shorthand. As you mentioned the combat was balanced with the expectation that the entire party was there.
You know if someone is so excited for d&d to "die" they can totally just stop playing d&d. No one is forcing them. Seriously go out and play other ttrpgs! They can be fun. If you don't want to support, play, or be around d&d it is a very easy fix. This kind of "will it decimate d&d?!?!?!?!?!?" hype just freaking exhausts me.
I think it's more a thing of D&D is essentially an attention black hole, so a lot of talk about other ttrpgs is easily overshadowed by even the most minor stirrings that are made in the D&D 5e space. I think it's more a weariness with groups trying to use D&D for everything no matter how little it might fit what they want to do (Ex: Cyberpunk, Wild West, High Sci fi, Ultra-low fantasy) and disregarding other systems out of hand. That, system fatigue, and WotC's questionable trade practices may also contribute to this.
Honestly, part of the problem was that at the time that they announced Daggerheart was during the whole controversy with the OGL in which a bunch of people were looking for a D&D alternative. It is a unreasonable expectation to have put on Darrington Press and the game designers there. First and foremost, even if it was a CR alternative to D&D it still wouldn't have the desired out come because CR and Darrington Press doesn't have the same market reach that WotC or Hasbro have. Second, Daggerheart was never stated to replace D&D. It is was just said to be a long form narrative ttrpg experience. People read too much into it and I have no doubt a lot of this was hype from the more toxic elements of the critter community.
If it does end up threatening D&D’s spot at the top, WotC is just going to send a PMC to Matt’s house to deal with the competition Thomas Edison style.
D&D has existed long before those greedy execs behind the OGL fiasco got their hands on it. What needs to be done away with isn't the game, it's the people. Anyone who wants a so-called "D&D-killer" is an overreactor who can't see the bigger picture and is too young to remember and appreciate how the game used to be.
Nine times out of ten calling something “killer of x” just leads to bad perception.
I remember all the WoW killers that came and went. I always wished them success as I hated WoW for a variety of reason, but knew they never would, then finally Final Fantasy XIV kicked them off their pedestal, sure, but certainly didn't kill them (though it seems Blizzard is making a solid effort themselves).
@@twistedturns65Yeah someone needs to go full scorched earth on that company at this point...starting at the top.
Reminded of whenever a new platform fighter would be announced and people would immediately call it "the Smash Bros killer" rather than allowing it to stand on its own.
@@savagehowler you'll get no disagreement from me there!
Personally, I'm starting to feel all these "X is going to destroy Y" narratives are caused by fear of missing out - or, in this case, fear of committing to something that may not end up being the best thing ever, because of a fear that no-one will ever join you in a second-best game, and that your personal enthusiasm for a thing does not get you any cred in an environment favouring another thing.
As somone who lived through early WoW, every goddamn MMORPG that came out was "the WoW killer." No. They were not. Some of them were great games, like LotrO, but well, history.
I think part of it is that dnd is stagnating and people are wanting a disruption. Same thing happened with wow.
@@neetfreek9921 there are plenty of games that shake up the d20 fantasy space. Most people don't bother to look beyond d&d in the same way Warhammer dominates the wargaming space, but the galaxy of other fantasy ttrpgs is quite vast and grows larger all the time. Shadowdark, Dragonbane, OSE (and its OSR brethren), Mork Borg, PF2e, PbtA games, DCC, LotP, et. al. all offer different gaming experiences either in mechanics or aesthetics, or both. Yet most people will run a mile when you suggest anything other than D&D.
Respect Daggerheart as its own separate thing
Something always has to be a "killer" and not just another competitor in the space. Wish people would just let things exist without worry about if it's going to somehow "dethrone" 5e. Each game system is made to facilitate a certain kind of gameplay. It's why some people like 5e best, while others may like PBTA or pf2e. People need to get this thinking out of their head because all it does it inadvertently cheapen the system in the eyes of the public. a "killer" ends up being very reductive.
Agreed. Obviously people can have favorites and preferences in systems, hell just this year I tried a new system that defeated all fantasy-based rpgs Ive tried beforehand, but trying to tell everyone that this system that’s not even out yet is going to “kill” something else with no real reasoning behind it is just going to go bad in the long run. And this applies not just to ttrpgs, but video games as well. I remember when everyone kept calling Humankind the “Civ killer” to the point the devs themselves said they never presented themselves as such
@@craftsmenMC Yeah, I hear you. Personally speaking I've left 5e for pf2e but it's mainly due to it delivering an experience or freedom I was wanting out of 5e.
Oh I absolutely agree it's not exclusive to ttrpgs, I only talked in that space since daggerheart was the subject, but you see it all the time in the videogame space.
I don't want "killers" I want competitors, because if there's a threat to the dominance of something in the genre then the competition spurs innovation, and hopefully in terms of price can protect the consumers too.
@@waifusmith4043 amen to that. Either way though I hope the new games coming out do well, even if I’m not interested in playing and regardless of what people label them
It's all a real capitalist perspective when people go "this is the x-killer," but you have to keep in mind that games are not like businesses. Jenga can't buy out Pickup Stix and make a hostile-takeover of Linkin Logs. It's only in capitalism that business starts wide and goes tall when one of the options gets a little ahead of the others such that it can eat the rest.
If I had to play Ticket to Ride every night because it killed all other board games, then board games would be dead to me, no matter how much I think TtR slaps.
Definitely excited for Daggerheart, however I do wonder if (since it's Critical Role's product, and it'll likely get some actual play videos on their channel devoted to it around its launch time) just how prevalent the pressure to "run these games exactly like Matt/whoever GMs. the liveplay" will be.
Oh they'll definitely do videos to promote it like they have been doing with Candle Obscura. They are still a business and the best way for them to promote their new produced is to show them playing it.
Dnd killer has the same vibe as wow killer.
Or "Smash Bros killer" for a third example.
Thank you for saying this. Seems like most of the videos I saw covering this were just saying that clickbait nonsense
It makes me happy that you love owl house so much. It’s one of my favorite shows
"I'm Annie Edison" is a mood.
I'm glad that here in Italy, we first check the rules and the reference fiction of the game before naming it "the new X" or "the Y killer"...and when it's done by someone that isn't in the developing team of the game, normally we ignore them 😂 but if it's the team that use that type of marketing...it's always a bad move.
I'm glad that you discovered the Owl House. I was also hooked when I started watching it. I love it.
Welcome to the Bad Girl Coven Crispy! The Owl House is an amazing show! I guess with your glowing recommendation I should check out these fan comics.
My take: Critical Role is not trying to "kill" DnD, they are trying to make sure WoTC doesn't screw over Critical Role. As the OGL debacle showed, WoTC is totally willing to gut the goose if they think they have a chance at a golden egg. Critical Role needs to maintain full control of their IP, and they can't do that if they are stuck with a dependency on someone else's game system. This is Critical Role insuring that they cannot be screwed over by WoTC or anyone else, and will certainly carry forward on the Daggerheart system with the next campaign.
It's even *simpler* than 5e. I can't imagine investing much time into it for most of the community.
It'll have a niche, but I'll be surprised if it even gets Pathfinder levels of popularity.
Really glad to see this take, and even the mentions of the PBTA similarities, which is sorely missing from so much of these discussions.
The way my ears perked when Griffon's Saddlebag was mentioned 👀
Reminds me of the game 'Svnt Dracones' with the mention of a 2-die system, save they have a scaling thing where the harder the check compared to your stats, the lower dice you had to use. Like, doing a charisma check. They say it's rank three, but you only have a 2 in the stat. The base-if you match the rank-is a 2d8. But in this case, it'd be a 1d8+1d6. Modifiers can overcome that, or even people helping, but...yeah.
I went to ups to print out some quick rules lists for a new player to have at the table this Sunday. I accidentally sent the basic rules file. I never realized it was 180 pages until that happened.
Dnd fans complaining about new editions being too easy goes all the way back to ADnD. These gatekeepy fucks who hate everything that isn’t a grinding slog killed this hobby for me for literally 20+ years and I've just picked it up again in the last couple of years. People who freak out over the idea that other people enjoy different fun from them are the real dnd killers.
Anyone have links for the things he mentioned in his tool box like the soundboard?
HOLD ON, SOMEONE BIG KNOWS TAVERN TALES?! - THE- BEST RPG EVER MADE?!
I'm mad at you Crispy. You made me buy the Flee, Mortals! hardcover which was highly expensive to get shipped to Australia!!! lul. Keep doing your stuff my dude. Really enjoy your perspectives on things and all the content you produce.
Wait till those people realize there are more systems out there other than Dnd. 😂
As a gamer who loves RGP’s I hate it when people say “This game is going to be THE Skyrim killer”. They say that to any game that is an open world RPG with dragons or something remotely similar to Skyrim in premise, only to fall flat.
Skyrim isn’t perfect, mods are the sole reason for its popularity in both deviants and normal people. But just because a game has a similar theme/ style isn’t going to make it a killer of the game that made the genre popular.
I love the owl house
Critical Role doesn't strike me as out to kill anything - they're all about encouraging new creators and contents.
Glad you mentioned WoW. That was the first example that came into my mind.
In a world where the Barbie movie destroyed the box office, I'll say anything is possible. Thought Barbie is a big name still.
As a pokemon and digimon / mon game collecting genre the dagger heart rant is a mood. The pokemon digimon comparison has always been dumb both di their own thing and please let indie mon games just be indie mon games
THE OWL HOUSE !!!
I've jumped into the bandwagon earlyer this summer and I loved it so much too !
Curse disney for canceling it ! è_é
I didn't know about the comics, i'm gonna dive into this too ! Thanks so much :D
We got a great ending and a great story. That's all I need.
In the 90s a lot of Marvel Comic's hot artists quit and stated their own comic book company... Image Comics. It was going to be a major player in comic and Marvel was going to die from losing such talent.
Marvel comics was just out of a bankruptcy and was still in the middle of lawsuits. Their properties were licensed to multiple movie studios. They were going to hurt. This Image Comics would knock Marvel to number two. DC Comics will fall to number three.
Currently Image Comics is barely at number three... far in the distance. Dark Horse Comics, the previous number three and Marvel killer is barely holding on.
As one radio talk show host said, he was aiming for number three... because everybody tries to be number one and two... And it never works out.
I don't need something to replace 5e. I want something to supplant PF2 on the lighter end.
It's also using d12s, which are the prettiest dice with the most satisfying roll characteristics. I am intrigued.
Crispy it was okay you told the players to stick together. The most important rule for D&D players is don't split the party. Particularly not when the party is already shorthand. As you mentioned the combat was balanced with the expectation that the entire party was there.
the only one who's killing D&D is Hasbro himself
Yeah, *I'm* killing D&D. wtf
You know if someone is so excited for d&d to "die" they can totally just stop playing d&d. No one is forcing them. Seriously go out and play other ttrpgs! They can be fun. If you don't want to support, play, or be around d&d it is a very easy fix.
This kind of "will it decimate d&d?!?!?!?!?!?" hype just freaking exhausts me.
I think it's more a thing of D&D is essentially an attention black hole, so a lot of talk about other ttrpgs is easily overshadowed by even the most minor stirrings that are made in the D&D 5e space. I think it's more a weariness with groups trying to use D&D for everything no matter how little it might fit what they want to do (Ex: Cyberpunk, Wild West, High Sci fi, Ultra-low fantasy) and disregarding other systems out of hand.
That, system fatigue, and WotC's questionable trade practices may also contribute to this.
Imagine hearing "narrative focused" and thinking it was overlapping with dnd in any way
Honestly, part of the problem was that at the time that they announced Daggerheart was during the whole controversy with the OGL in which a bunch of people were looking for a D&D alternative. It is a unreasonable expectation to have put on Darrington Press and the game designers there. First and foremost, even if it was a CR alternative to D&D it still wouldn't have the desired out come because CR and Darrington Press doesn't have the same market reach that WotC or Hasbro have. Second, Daggerheart was never stated to replace D&D. It is was just said to be a long form narrative ttrpg experience. People read too much into it and I have no doubt a lot of this was hype from the more toxic elements of the critter community.
That's a given. There are too many people who don't give a damn lol.
If it does end up threatening D&D’s spot at the top, WotC is just going to send a PMC to Matt’s house to deal with the competition Thomas Edison style.
The Pinkertons aren't a PMC. That is an insult to actual PMCs which is saying something. The Pinkertons are private security i.e. rent-a-cops.
D&D has existed long before those greedy execs behind the OGL fiasco got their hands on it. What needs to be done away with isn't the game, it's the people. Anyone who wants a so-called "D&D-killer" is an overreactor who can't see the bigger picture and is too young to remember and appreciate how the game used to be.
Dagger heart is just american sword world wotj d12 instead of d6s. Its pretty much the exsact same fucking thing