Member of a smaller band here, and yes indeed venues that take a merch cut at our level never do anything, and still take their 10-20%. Occasionally you can miss those fees if you're a support band, because they often just target the headliner, and rarely the venue manager comes up and says "we sold out tonight, no merch cut." But, 90% of the time, you're giving them a hefty percentage of your merch sales. Great video, thanks for posting.
Entheos sold so much fucking merch at your show (i keep seeing 50+ shirts at every single show i go to in the same city) that my friend who works at the venue said "we were watching the camera and figured that we should actually try to ask them (they normally don't take a cut).
I'm stoked I got to see you guys in Portland with Inferi, Entheos, and Vulvodynia. I'm ALSO stoked that I dropped some 💸 in the tip jar after I bought a shirt and chatted for a second. I had NO idea how crazy this actually was.
For fans that regularly buy merch to support the scene, would you prefer that they buy merch exclusively online via links that you provide, or is there benefit to the band for fans purchasing merch from you at shows?
I would agree with a flat fee. Not with an percentage. But like i said below, all we see here from the venue is their revenue, not there profit . Also just merch, not the whole show. All in all if i would do business and at the and of the day my profit is 8%,I would be happy. More then 12 i would consider excessive.
I always buy something at my local gigs. Even if I'm not into their music or an opener I've never heard of. I say thanks for a good gig with t-shirt or they won't be around again.
We're a small band and we've stopped bringing merch to venues who charge (Like the Whisky in LA) because it simply isn't worth it at the end of the day
genuine question: what's stopping bands from setting up a small table on a public sidewalk off the venue property for sale before/after a show? Or in a neighboring parking lot (provided permission)? Is it simply bc that's considered "soliciting"?
@@BlackCatBritt You'd think a business across from the venue would say, hey, come here and sell, we'll charge 10%. for 12,000 Eu (or equivalent in US dollars), not bad for a night for the midsized bands. but small bands, ugh. Cut the venue out since they charge so much. in other words, introduce competition and break the monopoly that AXS/TM have.
A lot of bands are starting to display their merch, but not have it for sale. They'll give you a business card with a QR code that sends you to their online store. I'm definitely in favor of this.
i dont like this, the whole reason you go to the show is to see the band and go home with a memento in the form of merch and not just buy it online which we can do any other time of the year. im coming home with a shirt that im gonna wear the very next day
@@markarmenta5259 Everyone would like it better the old way, but when venues charge way too much to allow merch sales this is the only way bands can make a little money without charging waaaay too much for t-shirts, caps etc
@@markarmenta5259 I get it, but if the venue gets a large cut of merch, then you are paying the venue twice and the band gets a smaller part. The venue also have no investment in the merch sold, only the band. What the bands should do is offer "gig only" merch available to those that come to the gig on their stores.
While Kurt Loder and Matt Pinfields relationship was taboo, their child was said to change worlds [edit- anyone else care to take a stab at a Loki McKenty joke?]
I am glad bands trust you enough to make this kind of information public. It was really interesting to see this spreadsheet. I like to know where my money go and I would personally prefer if most of the merch sales went to the bands, but until someone figures out a solution bands will be forced to make minimal if any profit. Really sad considering all the amount of work and effort they put into their shows.
Remember this a big band on a big venue, small bands keep a higher percentage because they have less structure. On the other hand they sell much less. Smalls and middle sized bands really need the merch money. Merch is vital to their survival.
also a side note, the only cost on here that is directly imposed by the venue is the 31,625 of the Commission after removing CC fees, which taking that and adding it to the 10,156 that the band made gets us 41781, which is what this would gross with standard logistics and manufacture fees. its also approx 33% gross profit, which if you retacked a venue fee on this is 35%, after paying logistics manufacturing VAT and insurance you'd see the values pretty close to switch with the venue taking 14,654.85, and the bands taking 27,216.15. granted this should be based on cost to venue for hosting merch stand if they are assisting set up and sell merch, but it makes the fees much more managable
... and my total unknown almost broke band from a unknown town in SouthAmerica was planning to give away 3 Tshirts on the next friday gig :):) ... thanks to this video I`ll keep`em and use`em every monday,tuesday wednesday.
As a Belgian accountant the VAT on this bill is completely off. AND that is even counting that VAT needs to be paid for as the merch is sold in Sweden. If this was a European band the VAT they had to pay is even paid back to the band or non-existent. If this was a Belgian band the venue could take either 0% or 25% VAT in account. If 25% VAT was taken into account than the Belgian band would be able to ask all VAT back to the state of Sweden, making the VAT cost them 0 euros. But taking into account that the invoice has to be correct than to begin with the main issue -> They are asking this band to pay all the VAT on the sold goods and take 0 VAT in account for the costs to sell these goods. So if I would take the net costs at the end (being 116.344), take the typo (of 1.440) nto account and take the VAT (of 31.625) back all costs should be 83.279 euros. Making the profit before VAT 43.221 euros on which 25% VAT should be paid, being 10.805,25 euros. This would imply that all costs had 25% VAT on them. As this is a European show the invoice to the band should look more like this: Goods sold : 126.500 € Costs in Sweden 25% VAT: 83.279 € Costs outisde of Sweden 2# VAT: unknown Taxable base: 43.221 € 25% VAT: 10.805,25 € Total invoice: 94.084,25 € Goods sold: 126.500 € You will be paid: 32.415,75 € So if this was a band based inside of the EU the net of the band would be 43.221 €, as the VAT of 10.805,25 can be asked back from the state of Sweden. If this was a band from outside of the EU than the net of the band would stay at 32.415,75 €. The VAT could only be correct if the Swedish venue was operated with a non-EU VAT-number and all costs were done with companies that also have non-EU VAT-numbers. I don't even think that Sweden would be okay with that. Also if the VAT is already taken off of the costs, than they would still have to take their own concession out of the taxable base. If I would get an invoice like that as an accountant I would immediatly ask them why all costs, including their 28% concession, were not taken into account for the VAT-calculation. I wouldn't even care if I had to take them to the EU court of The Hague for this.
VAT isn't paid only for the profit you make. It's paid for the entire cost of the product you're selling it for. Let's say it costs 15€ to make a t-shirt, ship it to Sweden and sell it there. The band sells it for 30€. The VAT is 25%. The amount of VAT the band pays to the Swedish government is 30€ - 30€ / 1,25 = 6€. The band makes a profit of 30€ - 15€ - 6€ = 9€. Also the VAT refund thing is only for VAT of the things your company spent money on while doing business in an EU country you're not based in. You can't get a VAT refund for products you sell in a different EU country. So basically: if you're a company in EU country A and your employees travel to EU country B to do some business, you can get a VAT refund for the things your employees spent money on in EU country B while doing business there. Stuff like car rentals, hotels and fuel (depending on restrictions imposed by the country in question, for example France will not do VAT refunds for hotel payments). If your employees sell a bunch of your company's products in EU country B, you pay the VAT to that country and you're not getting it back. In this band's case, they could ask for a VAT refund for the concession fee, crew hotels, some of the logistics costs and so on. Those would amount to about 40 000€ max so the band could get about 8 000€ of VAT refund. Which would make their net profit about 18 000€.
"The VAT could only be correct if the Swedish venue was operated with a non-EU VAT-number and all costs were done with companies that also have non-EU VAT-numbers. I don't even think that Sweden would be okay with that. Also if the VAT is already taken off of the costs, than they would still have to take their own concession out of the taxable base." - No, I can tell you that Sweden wouldn't be okay with that. Then it all comes down to whether the band is registered as VAT company. If not, well... get better accountant.
This should be the pinned comment. Not understanding what VAT is or how VAT balance works for businesses makes the discussion impossible and "balance" sheets shown in the video just stupid or dishonest. There are plenty of videos and sites explaining it.
@@Kepe I've done plenty of VAT refunds for truck drivers as well as international consultants and countries like France do in fact pay back hotel costs. The Belgian site I use to do these VAT refunds even has a specific subject for hotel costs in France. Plus you actually pointed out a right mistake on my point as if the VAT needs to be taken out of the profit instead of taken onto the profit. So if they sold 126.500 € it's not 25% of 126.500, but 20% of 126.500 being 25.300. But all VAT paid on all costs made to get to that profit are deductable from that 25.300. At least to my experience. I've even seen ridiculous costs been deducted in certain specific branches and if it is deductable for your branch it is also applicable for a VAT refund. Like if a band like Gwar would have an EU VAT number and would order 100 gallons of horse semen from a Swedish farmer for a show in Sweden all VAT on that horse semen is deductable.
It'd be interesting to see a venue's cost breakdown for a show, what their margins are. On the surface it would seem they are just collecting money, but there's got to be significant overhead cost on their part - mortgages, taxes, utilities, labor costs, etc, etc... so it'd be very interesting to see their margins for a show, especially comparable sized venue for what this band played in the example.
With the state of private ownership and venue ownership, places to play at are likely also trying to pass costs to the band, and the fans, if possible....So for everyone, it looks like it's difficult all around.
We totally need to know this if possible. Not sure what the best way to go about this is but with this sort of info and the topic of merch cuts being as hot as it is, if I’m a venue that needs these large cuts to just keep the proverbial lights on, I would not want to be lumped in with the parasitic venues and would provide at least an itemized sheet like this, maybe even a +/- 5% on the margin to keep it even more vague if you have to. But if venues aren’t willing to at least paint a vague picture of “sorry but we have to, here’s why” that’s a bad look.
@@npinjest7779 I don't know if that would really matter. Just shoving their hand into a pot and seeing what lands in it, seems a little off to cover their costs. Would probably be a lot better if they just said "this is the value we're offering you. I.e. the cost they have for the night with a slight increase for profit. It's amount x if you want to play at our venue". I don't know why the price you're paying should be tied that closely to how much merch you're selling. Because in the end, it is added to the fee you're paying them for the rent regardless. I don't think the cost for them increases significantly whether you're selling merch or not. It's not necessarily the value they're bringing that impacts merch sales but rather the bands name and brand. Taking one fourth for a spot in a venue the band had already rented out, seems like a lot. If a venue reads this and I'm off - you're welcome to prove me wrong.
Basically, working in the music industry is a financially stable career choice, except if you're a musician. The people who are responsible the venue being full to begin with. That's an absolute ripoff
I mean this band specifically is making a lot of money. Each member is making pre tax 2k a night (I'm assuming 5 piece). Play 150 shows a year and you're making 300k a year each just on merch. That's before festivals which are better paying especially for a band of this size. Not to mention that they're also making money on ticket sales. I don't know how much the band makes per ticket sale but even if it's 10% split 5 ways that's still 6k each per night from a 11k cap venue assuming a 30 euro ticket which is a serious low ball guess. This band is making a huge amount of money. Obviously much smaller bands are not making much money.
@@bengreenbank Yeah I was gonna say all these costs are their crew and logistics so anything Net is just 10k profit split between the members for a single day and it says they are playing two shows. If they made even half that the second day thats like 2-5k per night. I would not be bitching about that lol. But thats ideals so I'm not going to act like all gigs even make profit. Also that sales tax is insane. 25%? holy shit. if you're in the US itd be like 7-10% at the highest in most places.
That's totally nuts!!! I expected it to be unfair, but not to this extent. As a fan of some Japanese bands, I've already thought a lot about what a tour could mean for these bands in terms of logistics and finances. To see such numbers is just sad, pathetic and worrying.... Thanks to the band who gave you this information, and thank you for sharing this information with the public. 🙏🏻
Well that just shows I am doing the right thing when I avoid standing in the line at the merch booth wasting time and instead buying merch I am interested in from the online stores most bands have. I guess that nets the artists more. While this doesn't factor in directly into tour earnings, I would assume that online merch sales go up while a band is touring because the incentive to buy is bigger at that point.
Honestly, I'd wonder how much the difference is. Because this would certainly make me think twice before buying it at the venue instead of online. Only thing is that a lot of times the tour shirts are not available online.
That is where I am at. It is hard to know if the bands aren't getting screwed with online sales either, but I haven't heard complaints. Besides, I don't like most tour t-shirts. I don't like those that have the schedule on the back and it seems that every tour shirt has that goofy thing. Unless I know for a fact that the venue doesn't charge merch fees - unless they provide the workers to sell - I am not spending a dime on their property. That includes drinks. I am not spending $20 for a watered-down cup of crap beer.
Keep in mind, it REALLY depends on where you're buying the merch. If the band has an OFFICIAL online store, that's your best bet. But if it's something like EMP, Impericon, or anything else, they've probably just licensed it and the band isn't making a percentage of sales.
@@TankTheTech good to know. I'm about to see FIR & INK soon and I'm debating on getting merch at the venue or just buying from their official store site
this is where i'm at too mainly cuz i just hate standing in line. i mostly do it if they have vinyl or cds i want. but otherwise i search out a bands own merch store.
They make much more than that. This is a "worst case scenario" situation. Band using that as a boohoo pls buy our merch situstion... à shirt cost 3$ post print they sell it 50$, and most venue dont take a cut.
Yep. I'm in this startup phase realizing that everyone involved in our tour makes more than we do as individual musicians in the band. Same at home in the local music scene. My wife owns a bar that I played at and was also a bartender and they all walked out the door with more cash in hand than any of us musicians. I realize their pay doesn't scale at the same rate and if we ever do become more successful that balance will equalize and then flip in our favor but at this early stage, we are the investors hoping to see a return.
As a 30-year musician who hasn't broken through to the regular touring/recording artist stage, I wonder why there are so many secrets in the industry. I didn't know about merch fees until about 7 years ago. Why is it taboo to talk about things? It's like artists are just agreeing to let a system that they know is unfair and unjust keep perpetuating itself. I don't get it.
It's not too surprising for me, because of my experience in the computer games industry. Back in the 80s/90s I was working for a games writing company, and our best-selling game sold for £14.99 in stores, of which we as a company got 72p - under 5%. The big chain stores charged 55% to put it on their shelves (less for smaller stores but they sold way fewer), then you've got distribution, production, marketing, etc (all arranged by the publishing company who needed their cut). Some things don't change...
Reminds me of the contract from the record label. They offered us 12% of sales, contingent on us signing over all the publishing rights. From that 12% we had to give our mgmt and the producer 1% each, leaving 10% to split between the 4 of us.
I remember being on tour as an opening act, merch was everything. We didnt get paid for performances and selling that extra shirt or cd was the difference of sleeping in the car or in a hotel.
I've been there too and only experienced the cut of merch a couple times and thought it was fucked up. This was back in the early 00's. This list here shows me that this is a pretty big band with a big production and crew. This isn't the singer's girlfriend selling t-shirts in the back of the bar. This is a serious business operation and the venue has expenses but % per sale is a really piece of shit move tho. Imagine owning a bar and the landlord says you have to give them 25% of each drink sold every night. That's total bullshit. I've never owned a bar but the way shit is going these days I wouldnt be surprised if this was partially true. LOL.
@@Kirkshelton "the singers girlfriend selling t-shirts" lol i felt attacked. Youll never vuess who our merch person was on the road lmao. But seriously though. Yeah, this list is definitely a different perspective compared to what I have experienced, and truthfully, i think it is great for up-and coming artists so see that even once you "make it", there is a lot more that comes with touring, selling your merch, and so on. Ive, personally never seen a list like this, however, when we did a few back to back shows with Tech N9ne, we did get a chance to talk to him and one of the topics of discussion was him basically explaining the difference of an up and coming artist and a nationally touring artist and everything that comes with it. Like "yeah we rake in a lot of money, but touring definitely aint free. Here's where all that money goes...." it was quite interesting and eye opening.
Oh and with the venue percentages, i agree with you. Thats bullshit. Like, WE BROUGHT THOSE PEOPLE TO YOU THAT BUY THOSE DRINKS. why should we pay a percentage. We already made you money
We got to the level where it felt like we were running a business more than being a band. You have bills and people you have to pay and not a lot of revenue coming in. Bus rental, driver, driver hotel, gas, tour manager, merch costs, crew costs and everything else. It gets crazy and then you end up paying more people to figure it all out for you. Lots of reality checks when you get down about. We'd always be like "were on a tour bus on a major tour with a record deal. This is what we wanted. We're living our dreams" even though it didn't always feel like it.
I usually buy merch from bands especially in smaller venues. But if venues are taking that much I would absolutely buy it off the band’s website. Hopefully that gets more money to the band. I mean I pay $40 for a tee shirt at a $25 show pretty regularly.
Truly eye opening and great job!!! This is an immensely important topic and this really helps put some numbers and facts into the argument that bands have it difficult on the road. My first gut reaction: This makes me want to support the bands more by buying their merch online and to avoid giving my money to the music venues. What would be really interesting is to see if a venue would be willing to share their expenses(taxes, payroll, insurance, rent or mortgage, etc) vs profit margins (beverage sales, food sales, cuts from band for merch, rent fee from concert promoter, etc). It would be different from country to country, city to city, venue to venue, but I'd love to see that. Considering music venues can be open as bars, event spaces, sporting arena's, etc, my sympathy sides with the bands and musicians.
Thanks for making this vid and thanks to whatever band shared this info. It is truly eye opening and sad that they only get such a small percentage of the overall sales.
Thanks for the video breakdown were informative. What I would add is that there is no VAT in the US, while there is a sales tax which is a much lower rate. So for a show in the US with a sales tax rate of 7% it brings the net to close to 26%.
It's crazy because at one point it was the best option to buy merch because THAT'S where most of the bands get their money from outside of tickets, but it's very telling that maybe online merch buying is the way to go. Though when i think about it, aren't most m3rch stores not owned/run by the band either? Just a 3rd party license to sell merch? Who knows what the numbers look like there too 😔
The fact that everyone knew that merch was their bread and butter has turned the wolves on the bands and now there are hands extending towards them from all directions looking to take from those sales.
But how can we support them? They earn nearly nothing for streams or record sales+nearly nothing (if you are a small band/artist ) from touring and now only a little bit from merchandise sales. I wonder that so many little artist /bands survive more than 1 year
Your content is very informative and important, thank you for sharing all this information and educating others. After watching this video I found that FAC have a website which tells you which venues charge 0% for the sale of merch, and I was glad to find that the two venues I’m attending later this year are on that list. I will check the list again when I’m having to decide between locations and venues. So thank you!
I’m a former TM for arena level bands and this settlement sheet is very strange. It is true that in foreign markets you are going to net a lot less than you will domestically, but even with that, there are things on this sheet that really shouldn’t be there, at least I have never seen these things on a settlement sheet before. The first one that stands out to me is the insurance - I don’t think I’ve ever seen that on a merch settlement sheet as it is a SHOW cost, it’s not a merch cost. That is kind of the main overall thing here, they are putting things in that are show or even tout costs as line items on the merch settlement to make their net seem as low as possible. The second thing is the crew which apparently includes their bunks on the bus, their flights, their hotels, and all their other costs. Crew costs like this would NEVER be on a merch sheet and dude you have to know this if you’ve been working in the touring biz for awhile, that is just silly. It is a tour cost that would come out of the ENTIRE tour gross, not just the merch. By taking it out of the merch like this as opposed to the show gross it’s just obvuously trying to make their merch net seem as small as possible. Then graphic designs??? WTF, this is a really weird one. Same with “manufacture” - Any band of this level most likely has a merch deal and the designers are all part of the deal, the band doesn’t really pay for them. If you wanted to be really clear you could say they pay for them out of the commission that the merch company takes, but it shouldn’t be coming out of a show settlement. Let’s see, what other weird shit is in here…. An outside the venue “merch truck”?? I’ve never seen such a thing, no tour that I was ever on had one of those, but if they’re selling merch where’s the income from what they sold? Is it just lumped into the grand total of merch sales? I would love to see that income as it’s own line item so you could determine whether that is actually making money or not, if the “outside merch truck” is only netting 5K and it costs you 10K to have it then it’s not worth it, but you can’t figure that out by looking at this sheet. Ok to summarize, they are clearly factoring in a lot of other stuff that you normally wouldn’t account for in a nightly merch settlement, and these are things you usually account for on a TOUR basis so the cost of paying the crew and their room and board is usually coming out of the show fees. If they want to do their accounting like this, they can do that, it seems weird to me but maybe they just like doing it this way, but the real upshot is that at the end of the day if they account for it like this then their show profits would seem higher than normal because instead of paying these things from their show fees, they’re paying for them out of merch. It’s basically which “pocket” of income is going to pay for something, because when you’re out on your the merch sales isn’t your only source of income, but in doing it like this they’re making their merch net seem WAY lower than I have ever seen before and as I have said, I’ve never seen people do their merch settlements like this before. It’s very very misleading IMHO.
@@deadadam666 there is actually a lot more that I could have pointed out that I didn't... so they're doing 11K level shows, and they have THREE traveling merch people with them ???? WTF. I did shows in venues twice that big and only had ONE traveling merch guy. ONE. Obviously there were more people working the merch tables but everyone else was supplied locally by the promoter or the venue, the tour merch guy just oversaw them and gave them more product if they sold out of something, and then did the settlement at the end of the night. While we are on that subject of the one merch guy, he took care of all the advancing and logistics, there was no paying an "outside consultant" for that, he handled everything. And now that I think about it, I don't even think he traveled with the touring party - like I said before the band had a merch deal, and I think in most cases the merch company supplied the merch person, and he handled all his own travel and flights, and it never even came out of the tour budget at all. There might have been some tours where we did travel with a merch guy that we was hired by the band, but it was still just one guy, not 3, and they advanced everything so there was no outside consultants to pay. This is all very bizarre to me, I tried reaching out to Tank on twitter cause I'd love to have someone challenging these things and maybe he could do a counterpoint video, because I think it's really painting an inaccurate picture and likely to make fans go nuts when it really isn't this bad.
I've seen outside merch trucks, with hours long lines of many hundreds if not thousands of fans.. At Taylor Swift shows. But if your not Taylor Swift and you don't have hours-long lines, umm maybe not?
@@deadadam666 Right? Not to mention that dividing the adjusted nightly graphic design cost from the total would imply 24 shows... and the travel expenses/lodging state 2 shows on/1 night off, which would suggest a 36 day tour. With all other costs accounted for, this would add up to the band themselves grossing about a quarter million euro in just over 5 weeks. Not shabby for riffing for a living.
@@miket2646 and that would just be their merch income. They also get a show fee for the concert, either a flat guarantee or a split if it's above a certain number. When you're at the level of 11K venues, your guarantee should be well into the six figure range, so add that to the equation as well. Of course the tour has a lot of costs that would be paid out of those show fees, but you get the point.
Does each band on the lineup that night have to also pay the venue these kind of numbers as well? This is crazy.. ive heard many times that a bands merch is how they make most of their money while on tour.. man I seriously love your content!! As a musician who never got the opportunity to go on tour, i love all the behind the scenes info you bring to the front. Awesome stuff man!! 🤘
I went to a Gwar show in 1994. Oderus told the crowd how the venue was overcharging for their merchandise and that we shouldn’t buy anything. He said meet them outback after the show if you want anything. Ever since I try to catch the merch guys after the show so I can buy something
As a new band that has not started any tours or shows yet we have already looked ahead at these types of issues we will not be selling any merch at shows. We will advise all our fans in advance that all tour related designs will be in the online store. Lower cost of items is the primary reason for this. Our fans will be able to purchase a shirt related to the tour for 20 to 25 USD as opposed to the 35 to 40 some bands are charging ( in this economic state asking a fan to spend that on a shirt is not cool ). The tour items will only be online during the tour schedule and after the tour will be removed. We realize this will lead to lower sales to fans who find out about us at a show but we feel the lower cost savings to the fan as well as overall lower touring expense will be beneficial on both sides. Just our plan, may not work out but we are going to give it a shot because the venue fees & carrying expense are out of control.
They only take a cut from high selling bands in large venues so you've either got a few years before its a problem ( if ever ). Another tip is display merch pictures and keep the actual merch in the van, if someone asks for a shirt bring em out to the van.
We were just at Inkcarceration and Limp Bizkit headlined one night but had no merch, nothing, zip , nada. I wonder if this math had anything to do with it. It seems really odd to have a headliner not bring merch.
A good solution could be merch pre sale online before shows, you order what you want and collect on the day that way it cuts out merch sales at the shows and the bands wont be left with excess stock
Yeah. I ‘chased’ ‘the dream’ for years and it nearly killed me. Reframing & redirecting my ‘career’ as it relates to sharing my music with the world was the best thing I ever did. Being an ‘arena’ band anymore is nearly impossible & requires sacrificing waaaaay too much to get there. Best wishes to all the heavy bands out there. Make the music you want to make. Eff everyone else.
What do you think about playing your set, telling a band to order merch online and have them pickup their merch directly after the show upon showing the band their confirmation number? Technically this would mean that they are not selling merch at the venue they play so it'd seem like the promoter and venue couldn't do anything about that.
Yeah, there's a lot of logistics going into that that might make it a huge hassle, as well as what Nathan said above that venues may just blacklist bands that try something like that.
Smaller bands even sell their merch themselves. I was watching Cellar Darling for the first time live and was surprised that their merch stand was empty before the show. Well, it turned out that Anna Murphy, the singer of the band herself was selling it... I do buy merch especially for smaller bands to support them and will keep doing it, even if i have way way too many T-Shirts and CDs at home.🤣
I work at a 4* hotel where quite a few big to very BIG touring bands and hip hop acts stay when they come to my city. And I'm not in the sales dept. but know what they are usually charged per room wheb they book, and based on how much they are charged per room and how many people are I the crew they put up in the hotel (most of the time the artists stay there as well but not always) and that is NOT CHEAP AT ALL. Kind of amazes me how much is spent on rooms that most of these crews spend very little time in actually. unless it's a day off or two the crew is there maybe 8-10hours, if that. But glad to see these artists treating their crew so well and not just making them have to stay on the bus all the time or stay at super cheap crappy hotels.
enjoying these videos, its really amazing how much things have changed since i was part of the industry. I was out of Nashville back in 1995-2016. Of all my travels, i have to say some of my fondest memories were of Starwood... Such a shame it no longer exists, i was a rigger and lighting tech. I have to agree that merch job can be ridiculously brutal and if they get a tip they deserve it with the hours worked most the time very little appreciation for their hard work.
That’s insane. Always buying that t-shirt now. Every little bit helps. Venues make more money in just alcohol sales alone and without the bands they wouldn’t sell one drink.
Would a better option be to buy from the band's online merch store, having to upload proof that you had bought a ticket to the website to access exclusive tour merch? Which of course, could be bought before or after the event, with no need to mention it while performing, to avoid venues getting all pissy because they don't get their free lunch.
From a fan view this is a very informative video. In the 80’s/90’s I used to go to gigs 3 or 4 times a week and buy merch every time to support the band on the night. Back then it was always known the tours were expensive and never made any money but the band also got the majority of merchandise profits. The bands toured to support albums which sold by the truck load and they were rewarded with significant royalties on sales. Fast forward a couple of decades and the world of online streaming. To take my family to gigs and buy merchandise is quite simply a luxury item. As much as I loved going to gigs and would love to take my son to many of the major tours now. Like many others with a family to support on an average Joe pay cheque, a few hours of live entertainment for the family (at the cost of several hundreds of ££’s) verses putting food on the table and paying the bills is not a difficult equation to solve. (BTW I would love a cut of €10k as a day rate between 4 or 5 team members). My last gig was Slayer, and I was hoping to see Motley Crue / Def Leppard this year, but to take the wife and son would have worked out at £450 for tickets (standing), £50 for fuel, £250 for food and accommodation over night as we would have had to travel 180 miles to the gig location, it’s not hard to see why merch purchases would have not been a priority if we had attended. The way the music industry has gone in general is much the same as many big corporations, all about the bottom line…..such a pity, maybe it’s time for a Bud Lite moment…….and a rethink as to how bands are rewarded for their artistic endeavours and less well established bands should be supported. The top down economy has f@*t it for all..
Thanks for having this discussion. A bigger question is then the profit from ticket sales, or even alcohol sales. It could be that the band does just fine, but if you look only at Merch sales, things look atrocious. But indeed the expenses here for merch is insane.
It's become a bigger issue because all the other costs are squeezing even harder now, so where "yeah, I don't like it much, but cost of doing business I guess" might have been the repsonse to a flat fee under "use of merch area", especially if venue staff are actively working in some capacity for it, but taking a cut - especially 25% off the top - gets people thinking words like "racketeering".
8% revenue is insane, but I have a couple thoughts about these numbers. - The VAT tax differ a lot depending on the country, for example in Switzerland it's 7.7%, in Italy should be 22% if I'm not wrong, it's a huge difference. Sweden is probably one of the higher, and could explain why they chose that specific country for this example. Also, companies usually set different prices for different countries in order to adjust to the local VAT (the price without VAT is the same, the difference is the VAT), at the end is the final buyer who pay the VAT price, the bands don't do that? As an example, I set a price for an item at 10 USD, in a country with a VAT 7.7% I sell it at 10.80 USD, in a country with a VAT 22% I sell it at 12.20 USD. - the 3 crew guys and all the expenses related, it's correct only if these 3 guys are there ONLY for the merchandise store (or they have also other jobs, like set the stage for example?), otherwise their expenses should be split and not accounted only on the merchandise costs. - if they have a store outside the venue, for those sells they don't pay the 28% to the venue, here they apply the 28% to the total, as they sold nothing outside, or the store was still inside the venue perimeter, but if it's that, where is the point to have an outside store? Nevertheless, 28% taken by the venue to do almost nothing is crazy. But considering these numbers and assuming they are correct, I would expect an increase of the merch price, and if we want to support the band as I always do at a show, maybe it's better to buy the merch at their online shop, or I'm wrong?
Good points. I'd add these as well. VAT is an indirect tax ultimately charged on the buyer. If this is a sizeable band then should set up a European merchandising company and could claim input tax repayments on some of these amounts. They may already do this and we aren't seeing it on this. Like you, I think there might be some double counting on the crew. Credit card fees are a separate expense expense than whatever is going to the venue.
Yup, thats my take also. Band shouldn´t loose cent from VAT. It should be on customer in europe. Meaning merch is more expensive by that VAT from that amount of money that band thinks is baseline profitable price for that item. Like yes it taken from gross profits. But if there would be no VAT then that merch must be cheaper by that amount of money. In the end band still would earn same amount of the money.
I am starting to think that given the revenue flow these bands have, they may consider setting up the band as a corporation and getting a VAT registration, so they can get a VAT refund. It will lead to more accounting & administration costs, but I feel it will be worth it. For those of you who have no idea what I am talking about, if a company has a VAT registration, it means they can pay VAT only on the value they add to their product or service. Put simpler, the band could get a refund for the VAT paid for the production of those T-shirts, for their equipment, or even for the fuel they bought for the merchandise truck. The way it works is you pay the entire VAT amount first, then you submit your invoices to your tax authority to prove what is the actual value you added, and the tax authority reimburses you the amount of VAT that has been already paid. Unfortunately, it requires that you get a VAT-compliant invoice for absolutely every expense you make, like hotel rooms, truck fuel, travel tickets, etc. because otherwise the tax authority won't recognise your expenses. This takes time and these invoices are more complicated than the regular ones, as you need to fill in all the business information, break down what amount of VAT has been paid and so on. Yet, if they have their merchandise fees settled remotely, it could be done easier. This could save them quite a lot of VAT, which is a big part of their expenses.
@@zhivik That could be a problem for small bands, and probably the amount is too small to pay an accountant to do the job, it's extremely complicated also because they work in a lot of EU countries and they need to do it in every country I think, but Tank said this is a big band, and they are, they sold out the venue, I suppose they already have a management team, which should be responsible for this as well, are big money and would be surprised if they didn't ask a refund. Also because it doesn't apply only to the merchandising but to every fee they have related to their activity where they aren't the final buyer, on tour or not.
@@Richarddraper I hope they requested the reimbursement, but in that case they shouldn't deduct the 25% to claim their revenue is only 8%, but only the part of the VAT they ultimately need to pay, and the result would be an higher gain.
Ok. So here's something I've been trying to reconciliate, and I'm more than open to ideas (both as a musician and a fan). This year, I've been doing my very best to support the bands I love. As many as I can, but obviously, I can't do it for all because... well, it gets expensive. But that means going to shows, buying their music from Bandcamp, etc. I know about the situation with merch sales, so I decided... the BEST way I can support the band, is to buy my merch (say... a t-shirt) from them directly. That means though their website. That means bypassing the venue's merch tax. Depending on the system they use, the band will very likely be paying a percentage of each sale to their online store, but I'm guessing/hoping it's not as high as what the venues charge. So... in theory, fine. However... now I end up paying for shipping. Considering they'll more than likely ship the merchandise from a different country than mine, this means I end up paying a shipping amount that almost equals, or in some cases, exceeds, the cost of the merch I'm buying. So... that immediately puts a damper on the whole thing. Unless I buy from a store in my country that imports merch, but now I'm buying from a third party, and I have no idea of how much they paid the band for the merch. So... kind of a convoluted situation here. Would you have any suggestions as to how best support artists/bands in this regard? Thanks!
The bands i'm buying merch from have their own online store and it is run by the band itself - so i assume ( hope ) more of my money sticks to the band. and i don't like standing in line at the merch booth for hours....
BUt does those Band also sell the Tour shirts afterwards in the Online shop? Because if the merch booth have 1 on 1 the same shirts on the online shop allready before the tour starts its useless to buy them on tour!
@@nachtelfirokese88 sometimes bands have their tour shirt in their onlineshop, sometimes tour shirts are only sold at concerts. In the end you have to decide if it's more important to have a tour shirt and missing a chunk of the show while standing in line for merch or just skip it. At EC in Leipzig i was checking their online store while i was waiting in line and the moment i saw that they had the stuff i wanted in their online store i ordered my shit online and went back to the concert. sometimes it's as easy as that, sometimes not.
Are we gonna get music/gear reactions ever again? Not gonna lie I miss 2020 Tank content. Not complaining its your channel and you gotta do what makes you happy. I just miss the content that got me interested in your content in the first place. Much love bro 🤘🏻
Never in my life have I paid that little for a concert ticket. I must be missing something. Every concert I’ve gone to at an arena sized venue has tickets ranging from around $100 to $1000 each.
These 11 bucks are not the ticket price. It is what an average fan paid for merch. 11 000 fans, 11 Euros each, there you have the 126 000ish Euros which is the "total" income. It is only the merch income, unless I misunderstood. The tickets are another story completely. 11 000 tickets even 50 Euros a piece make 550 000.
This makes me want to ask a father/son I know. One is the Merch manager for one of the larger nostalgia 70s rock bands and the other is the merch manager for two large 80's hard rock/metal acts. I'm curious how their numbers line up. I know the son, for his side of the business, owns his own semi/trailer for hauling merch from show to show. That 25% is a huge amount for a venue to take off the top. I'm curious if the band gets a cut of the concession sales or if that's purely kept by the venue.
I have known about the venues getting a cut but this takes it to another level thus explaining why merch itself is so expensive. Thanks for this. Really cool info 🤘
Hey, great video, thank you for sharing this! It would be great to see similar breakdown when the band gave merch rights to a merch company. I'm based in EU and worked in music industry for 30 years, all sort of things from touring as TM, backliner, to doing local merch concessions. I'd have a lot to say, but want to keep this short. On general bigger bands use merch companies that sell merch for them in Europe. When you have a European based merch company VAT does not matter anymore, as all amounts (merch income and costs related to it) are calculated net of VAT. But yes, on general I agree that local merch concessions fees are too high, but have arguments pro and against, similar like Tank The Tech said.
A few thoughts. That's 8% profit after salaries, so it's actual profit. So they've covered their business costs and some money is left over. That's good, everyone got paid and they have more money than they started with. But yeah, the margin is slim. VAT varies by country, so some countries are more profitable (any isn't probably much less profitable). The venue does "bring" the customers to the booths. The booths wouldn't be there without the venue. So the venue probably has a good case for getting a cut. But it should probably be less than the band's cut.
Damn... 8% is indeed crazy. Crazy good! People don't realize how thin the profit margins are on a lot of businesses. Retail averages 0.5-3.5%, for example. However, another way to look at this is that the band was able to provide employment at decent rates and for a pretty fun job (for the right kind of person) for 3 merch crew, 2 truck drivers, an artist, an accountant, security, and at least one office support person. They were also able to patronize what is probably a small business manufacturing the merch, a number of hotels, airlines, trains, probably a print shop or two for the creation of the displays. They were able to support the venue, keeping it afloat and making it something venues want to continue to do (allowing concerts to be put on at them), and they were able to contribute to the local economy in the form of taxes. On top of all of that, they got to keep 11k€ in profits! That sounds like a good deal to me! People often forget that even a business that breaks even, even a business that _inherently_ breaks even like a non-profit organization, is still providing a living for its employees, services for its customers, taxes for its government, patronage for suppliers and other support businesses, and more. Yeah, the "bottom line" gets a lot of glamor, but it's not really all that big a part of what a business does. It's just the part that shareholders focus on, probably _too strongly_ given what's happening in the world...
@TankTheTech I’ve been the LD in several local to me venues over the last 15 yrs. I’ve been calling out this practice on that level for 10 of them. Thank you for covering this. I wonder if it has any bearing on LN suspending those practices on the club level. Can you bring to light the ticket resale scam that leaves sold out shows with a half full venue. That’s another one that needs attention
I have started looking at the merch tables and finding what I want and then going on the band's website and buying it there. Maybe I miss out on a special tour shirt, but what I get will still be cool. Also, I normally wear 3X in t-shirts, and they rarely have those at the shows.
If the band has a website, buy from the website. Some bands if they have like excess Winter merch and need to clear for the warmer months or new album merch, they'll have a sale. Buy from the website so the money goes to the band.
People are more likely to buy a tee at a show, high on feelings and a bit of alcohol, than when hung over at work the day after. I love getting merch at a show, but I've never bought from an official band page. An probably never will.
This is why the project I'm working on is going to be a studio project, probably won't make anything from it, but I also won't be touring which I would have no way to afford.
I love this analysis and totally agree these numbers are ridiculous. One thing I’d like to add to the conversation is the positive financial impact of paying the crew members that managed the Merch operation. It’s not solely about the profit at the end of the day, this band hired and paid many people along the way (graphic design, mfg, office staff, on site sellers, etc…) and sustained their careers in the industry. While the numbers are crazy (looking at you VAT) this was a positive net outcome and financially supported a number of people along the way.
hey man nice to see your channel growing. im a member since you had 5k subscribers. nice discussion. wish the best for you tank... keep with the good work
If this is sabaton, when I saw them in London, that outside truck sold out of merch before the show began and their show specific t-shirt were all completely gone before doors opened.
Seems like getting your merch out is as much a passion project as the music, makes sense. I don't agree with the insane venue cuts, but it also makes sense. Especially a huge venue that is providing the literal space for you to run a $100k popup shop. Super interesting stuff
Thanks for this. As a concert buff + data analyst, this stuff is so interesting! Some curious choices by the band (outside truck sales for 10K as an example) so would be interesting to compare if you were able to get such info from a band who did not have those expenses. Taking out some of those things would probably take their profit margin to ~20%, but hard to know for sure.
I would like to see a video on alternative ways to sell merch on the road that reduces costs. For instance, I've thought that creating city-specific print-on-demand tour merch ONLY available to order from a kiosk at the merch table (or a QR code on the display with a link only good for 12 hours after show) might be one way to do it. Particularly if your POD supplier had a regional presence (thinking Europe vs. US) that would ship quickly and affordably. That would reduce how much transport is involved, leftover stock, and the up-front manufacturing investment, while offering a unique design that's custom per city and available on a wider range of items than you'd normally be able to stock on tour. Yes, POD has a lower margin, but if you can find a way to capture the buying impulse and excitement without risk, then it could be worthwhile. Thoughts?
Quick note, venues are also bound to pay VAT + taxes from the concession revenue. Which from the 35k go down to 18k-ish. Still, a pretty high cut, and definitely should be lower. Great video! Keep up the great work!
Full-time musician here: 10-20 years ago, show guarantees and merchandise sales were the steady income that a professional band could rely on. In 2023, touring is something that is break even at best, and at worst a "promotional investment". Personally, I view it as "brand awareness" due to the astronomical overhead costs. And while it's true that merch cuts have been around for a long time, it was mostly something larger bands had to deal with. Thanks to Live Nation's monopoly on small and mid tier venues, bands at that level are now also obligated to pay merch cuts. Because of this, I've actually decided to STOP performing live unless the opportunity is so good I can't say no. It's just not worth it anymore.
It’s definitely going to come to a head at some point in the near future. Bands are getting the shaft on streams, merch, and touring in general. Id love to see bands take a 3-6 month hiatus and pour time into a quality virtual show. For example using video games and live streams. Call of duty, Fortnite, whatever people are playing these or do a cool visual pay per view TH-cam stream. Deal away with venues for that short time or at least the ones charging insane cuts. Don’t wanna kill the good small ones. But I think that’d benefit everyone.
The VAT figure is misleading. That gross figure is offset by the VAT on items you purchase which you claim back on your VAT settlement, so VAT on fuel, vehicle hires, venue hire, hotels etc which is incurred in the country should be offset against it.
The main thing that this makes me want to do is buy merch directly from the band’s website as opposed to at the shows. There’s nothing like that in the moment buying to have the shirt show and souvenir, but I want to support the band, not make the venue rich. I worry now that more people will just buy bootleg merch off of whatever Facebook pop up ad shows up, and then the band gets nothing at all. I’ve been there and done that. If you get a band that you like in a small club or something where they actually stand at their merch table signing autographs and such- just hand them some straight cash. Tell them to get a hot meal or put it in the gas tank. Those small bands are the ones that need the help most.
Taylor Swift got smart and started selling merch outside the venue two days in advance under the guise of creating shorter lines on show day. I’m pretty sure LN’s contract only has language specific to show day and at the venue. I thought it was a genius move to avoid the merch fees.
Seeing something like this begs the question, why aren't more bands putting all of their merch sales into a truck on the sidewalk outside of the venue? Get a vendors permit, and that 25% is yours.
The sheet seems valid if we correct the thing that future-Tank points out. Europe is a weird place in many ways. Im from Denmark and we have kind of the same VAT rules as sweden. In this case: Cut for venue: 35.420 Venue pays a 25% VAT of that giving the venue rougly a 25.000€ profit of which they will pay for everything merch-related (Staff, concessions etc). This is still a WAY too high cut but we need to keep in mind that we dont know the actual expenses the venue has that are merch-related. As the band states we dont know the costs but that need to be subtracted from the number before we can say that the venue makes 35k per show, when comparing it to the bands bottom-line. Keep supporting the bands! Keep buying merchandise! But maybe support them through their own direct channels.
A little note on VAT: It is a pass through tax, which is that you are paying the difference between tax paid when you obtain the merchandise and the tax collected when you sell it. So the 25% number may be smaller if a eurozone VAT of some sort was already paid to obtain the stock. It isn't always a simple cost (unlike american retail sales taxes).
Tank, as someone wo has been a TM and settled merch with venues and seen it all one thing that irks me a lot is doing shows in casinos. I've settled merch and done show settlements back in the "counting rooms" where there are shelves of shrink wrapped blocks of all denominations of money. HUGE amounts of money! And here are the casino reps demanding there cut of our merch. Sometimes not much if it wasn't a good night but still they want it. Granted there are a few who don't take a percentage but for the ones that do it is just something that irks the shit out of me.
I think casino shows are tacky and a sign the artist is declined. I know they might have a nice theater but still. I'd rather play a large bar venue than Indian casino
The band I play in makes crazy money on merch at shows that don’t take cuts. We take maybe 2 shirts to big festivals and big venues that takes a percentage. Some take different percentage’s for hard/soft items, so we just pick and choose what we take.
Only semi related, we also sell merch for a local dirt racing team and yeah, after it's all said and done you're LUCKY if you break even on merch. I'm surprised major bands aren't able to do better but I know that merch is tough.
if you want to really support a band, go and buy their merch online at their own store. That's what I've been doing when a bunch of tours were cancelled during the pandemic
Some ideas I've had for the merch I'd like to see. - I know cotton t-shirts are cheap, but bands could look into cotton poly blend shirts. - Years ago I went to some concerts where the bands had custom usb drives made and you could buy the drive and it included high quality audio files of the band's entire catalog. - Sell me a code where I can download a copy of the artwork you're putting on the shirt so I can have it as wallpaper on my computer or my phone. - Nice Enamel pins I could put on a bag, jacket or badge lanyard (same pin could also be a magnet) - Band logo on a computer keyboard keycap. - Work with a photographer and let me buy high quality pictures from the show that I'm at. - Record the audio from the show and sell me a code so I can download that audio and listen to the I was at show again. These last two might help some people keep their phone in the pocket during the show None of these do anything about venues that take a percentage, but you'd be a lot more likely to get my money for something like these than a 100%cotton tshirt. Also a lot of them take up a lot less space than tshirts and you don't have to worry about sizing.
As a fan of music and going to shows, I want to support the artists and show love to the bands. I do buy merch, but it sucks that only a small percentage of the money goes to the bands.
I refuse to buy merchandise other than the music itself, DVDs, so you can watch them perform in live footage or music videos or books about the band. I don't need trinkets with the band logo, symbols, or faces of the band on them. I have enough umbrellas, key rings, perfumes, t-shirts, bags, travel mugs, and water bottles at home to not need any more. These things are cheaper in the shops, longer lasting and sometimes with prettier designs. Well-known bands don't need your financial support. If you want to support up and coming bands, buy their music and maybe extra copies for friends.
OK, so this is insightful and does shed light into how much impact the margin is hit by those fees. However, one thing I would like to see is this income statement at an American venue that doesn’t have a VAT. The incidents that you cited at the beginning of the show were around North American tours where in Canada the VAT is 5% and in US standard sales taxes are 8-15%. In the bands I have engaged with the margin % is double what this band’s statement was. The difference though is gross numbers size. They need a higher % to be able to make a living or good living touring. When you are that mid-level band close to being to truly make this their main job, those cuts really hurt and can demoralize.
Worth mentioning that when you get up in the Scandinavian countries, everything is more expensive, mainly because taxes are much higher, but the government provides more for their citizens, this has a knock on is taxes, wages, transport, fuel....
It would take a lot of the bands fans to maybe see this video and realize we should support the band directly through purchasing tour merch from their websites. After I saw Spiritbox earlier this year the put their tour merch online. It’s hard to not buy merch at a show cause it’s in the moment you love the band but maybe fans need to put a stop to this. But again it’ll be hard not to purchase merch. Now we understand why the prices are high for t shirts hoodies etc
Would love to see arena-playing bands bring 10-50 extra people on tour, different amount of people depending on the venue size. Also getting permits to open up a store in every country they visit. At least here in Sweden, selling stuff outside a venue require permits from local police. It's a lot more to it than "the venue takes the money".
Even though it may be costly, This supports my logic behind buying merch for every gig that I go to see, Some say that £40/45 for a shirt is very expensive and it definitely is but seeing these numbers, no wonder they’re having to raise prices! It does make me wonder though how The Cure have been able to break even and not make a massive loss on their current tour. It’s no secret that Robert Smith has been fighting to the nail with Ticketmaster to lower the. Ticket prices of the shows a massive amount, but not only that, I saw them at Wembley arena last December and their merch prices from what I remember were as follows: T Shirts (Multiple designs and V Necks) - £25 Hoodies - £45 Posters (Exclusive numbered event posters) - £12.50 This is for Wembley Arena so no where near a small capacity venue. The Bootleg guys were selling their own stuff outside and on some things they were charging more than the actual band themselves! How the hell are they able to break even and not make a loss as their merch prices are the same equivalent worldwide!?
Member of a smaller band here, and yes indeed venues that take a merch cut at our level never do anything, and still take their 10-20%. Occasionally you can miss those fees if you're a support band, because they often just target the headliner, and rarely the venue manager comes up and says "we sold out tonight, no merch cut." But, 90% of the time, you're giving them a hefty percentage of your merch sales.
Great video, thanks for posting.
Entheos sold so much fucking merch at your show (i keep seeing 50+ shirts at every single show i go to in the same city) that my friend who works at the venue said "we were watching the camera and figured that we should actually try to ask them (they normally don't take a cut).
I'm stoked I got to see you guys in Portland with Inferi, Entheos, and Vulvodynia. I'm ALSO stoked that I dropped some 💸 in the tip jar after I bought a shirt and chatted for a second. I had NO idea how crazy this actually was.
For fans that regularly buy merch to support the scene, would you prefer that they buy merch exclusively online via links that you provide, or is there benefit to the band for fans purchasing merch from you at shows?
@@usernamesareforidiot following 💜
I would agree with a flat fee. Not with an percentage. But like i said below, all we see here from the venue is their revenue, not there profit . Also just merch, not the whole show.
All in all if i would do business and at the and of the day my profit is 8%,I would be happy. More then 12 i would consider excessive.
It’s worth noting that many smaller venues don’t charge merch fees. Please please please do not stop buying merch at small shows 🙏🙏🙏
Generally speaking if a band is selling merch, do buy merch.
I buy the majority of my merch online, thoughts on buying online vs directly at live shows?
Typically tour shirts with dates are not available online. Only at the show. I always buy the dates shirts. One side design shirts are BS.
I do typically buy tour shirts but in light of this I think online when possible seems to be the most supportive. Definitely good information here
I always buy something at my local gigs. Even if I'm not into their music or an opener I've never heard of. I say thanks for a good gig with t-shirt or they won't be around again.
We're a small band and we've stopped bringing merch to venues who charge (Like the Whisky in LA) because it simply isn't worth it at the end of the day
genuine question: what's stopping bands from setting up a small table on a public sidewalk off the venue property for sale before/after a show? Or in a neighboring parking lot (provided permission)? Is it simply bc that's considered "soliciting"?
@@BlackCatBritt isnt street sell illegal in US?
@@Bulsky doesnt stop tshirt scalpers. Just sayin'....
@@BlackCatBritt You'd think a business across from the venue would say, hey, come here and sell, we'll charge 10%. for 12,000 Eu (or equivalent in US dollars), not bad for a night for the midsized bands. but small bands, ugh. Cut the venue out since they charge so much. in other words, introduce competition and break the monopoly that AXS/TM have.
@@marctowersap8018 right?!
A lot of bands are starting to display their merch, but not have it for sale. They'll give you a business card with a QR code that sends you to their online store. I'm definitely in favor of this.
Smart
i dont like this, the whole reason you go to the show is to see the band and go home with a memento in the form of merch and not just buy it online which we can do any other time of the year. im coming home with a shirt that im gonna wear the very next day
@@markarmenta5259 Everyone would like it better the old way, but when venues charge way too much to allow merch sales this is the only way bands can make a little money without charging waaaay too much for t-shirts, caps etc
@@markarmenta5259 I get it, but if the venue gets a large cut of merch, then you are paying the venue twice and the band gets a smaller part. The venue also have no investment in the merch sold, only the band. What the bands should do is offer "gig only" merch available to those that come to the gig on their stores.
This detours me to be honest. Shipping prices are outrageous,
Tank slowly becoming an ace reporter on the music industry.
While Kurt Loder and Matt Pinfields relationship was taboo, their child was said to change worlds
[edit- anyone else care to take a stab at a Loki McKenty joke?]
I am glad bands trust you enough to make this kind of information public. It was really interesting to see this spreadsheet. I like to know where my money go and I would personally prefer if most of the merch sales went to the bands, but until someone figures out a solution bands will be forced to make minimal if any profit. Really sad considering all the amount of work and effort they put into their shows.
Remember this a big band on a big venue, small bands keep a higher percentage because they have less structure. On the other hand they sell much less. Smalls and middle sized bands really need the merch money. Merch is vital to their survival.
also a side note, the only cost on here that is directly imposed by the venue is the 31,625 of the Commission after removing CC fees, which taking that and adding it to the 10,156 that the band made gets us 41781, which is what this would gross with standard logistics and manufacture fees. its also approx 33% gross profit, which if you retacked a venue fee on this is 35%, after paying logistics manufacturing VAT and insurance you'd see the values pretty close to switch with the venue taking 14,654.85, and the bands taking 27,216.15. granted this should be based on cost to venue for hosting merch stand if they are assisting set up and sell merch, but it makes the fees much more managable
... and my total unknown almost broke band from a unknown town in SouthAmerica was planning to give away 3 Tshirts on the next friday gig :):) ... thanks to this video I`ll keep`em and use`em every monday,tuesday wednesday.
As a Belgian accountant the VAT on this bill is completely off. AND that is even counting that VAT needs to be paid for as the merch is sold in Sweden. If this was a European band the VAT they had to pay is even paid back to the band or non-existent. If this was a Belgian band the venue could take either 0% or 25% VAT in account. If 25% VAT was taken into account than the Belgian band would be able to ask all VAT back to the state of Sweden, making the VAT cost them 0 euros.
But taking into account that the invoice has to be correct than to begin with the main issue -> They are asking this band to pay all the VAT on the sold goods and take 0 VAT in account for the costs to sell these goods.
So if I would take the net costs at the end (being 116.344), take the typo (of 1.440) nto account and take the VAT (of 31.625) back all costs should be 83.279 euros. Making the profit before VAT 43.221 euros on which 25% VAT should be paid, being 10.805,25 euros. This would imply that all costs had 25% VAT on them.
As this is a European show the invoice to the band should look more like this:
Goods sold : 126.500 €
Costs in Sweden 25% VAT: 83.279 €
Costs outisde of Sweden 2# VAT: unknown
Taxable base: 43.221 €
25% VAT: 10.805,25 €
Total invoice: 94.084,25 €
Goods sold: 126.500 €
You will be paid: 32.415,75 €
So if this was a band based inside of the EU the net of the band would be 43.221 €, as the VAT of 10.805,25 can be asked back from the state of Sweden.
If this was a band from outside of the EU than the net of the band would stay at 32.415,75 €.
The VAT could only be correct if the Swedish venue was operated with a non-EU VAT-number and all costs were done with companies that also have non-EU VAT-numbers. I don't even think that Sweden would be okay with that. Also if the VAT is already taken off of the costs, than they would still have to take their own concession out of the taxable base.
If I would get an invoice like that as an accountant I would immediatly ask them why all costs, including their 28% concession, were not taken into account for the VAT-calculation. I wouldn't even care if I had to take them to the EU court of The Hague for this.
VAT isn't paid only for the profit you make. It's paid for the entire cost of the product you're selling it for. Let's say it costs 15€ to make a t-shirt, ship it to Sweden and sell it there. The band sells it for 30€. The VAT is 25%. The amount of VAT the band pays to the Swedish government is 30€ - 30€ / 1,25 = 6€. The band makes a profit of 30€ - 15€ - 6€ = 9€.
Also the VAT refund thing is only for VAT of the things your company spent money on while doing business in an EU country you're not based in. You can't get a VAT refund for products you sell in a different EU country.
So basically: if you're a company in EU country A and your employees travel to EU country B to do some business, you can get a VAT refund for the things your employees spent money on in EU country B while doing business there. Stuff like car rentals, hotels and fuel (depending on restrictions imposed by the country in question, for example France will not do VAT refunds for hotel payments). If your employees sell a bunch of your company's products in EU country B, you pay the VAT to that country and you're not getting it back.
In this band's case, they could ask for a VAT refund for the concession fee, crew hotels, some of the logistics costs and so on. Those would amount to about 40 000€ max so the band could get about 8 000€ of VAT refund. Which would make their net profit about 18 000€.
"The VAT could only be correct if the Swedish venue was operated with a non-EU VAT-number and all costs were done with companies that also have non-EU VAT-numbers. I don't even think that Sweden would be okay with that. Also if the VAT is already taken off of the costs, than they would still have to take their own concession out of the taxable base." - No, I can tell you that Sweden wouldn't be okay with that. Then it all comes down to whether the band is registered as VAT company. If not, well... get better accountant.
Exactly. This sheet is totally off.
This should be the pinned comment. Not understanding what VAT is or how VAT balance works for businesses makes the discussion impossible and "balance" sheets shown in the video just stupid or dishonest. There are plenty of videos and sites explaining it.
@@Kepe I've done plenty of VAT refunds for truck drivers as well as international consultants and countries like France do in fact pay back hotel costs. The Belgian site I use to do these VAT refunds even has a specific subject for hotel costs in France.
Plus you actually pointed out a right mistake on my point as if the VAT needs to be taken out of the profit instead of taken onto the profit. So if they sold 126.500 € it's not 25% of 126.500, but 20% of 126.500 being 25.300.
But all VAT paid on all costs made to get to that profit are deductable from that 25.300. At least to my experience.
I've even seen ridiculous costs been deducted in certain specific branches and if it is deductable for your branch it is also applicable for a VAT refund.
Like if a band like Gwar would have an EU VAT number and would order 100 gallons of horse semen from a Swedish farmer for a show in Sweden all VAT on that horse semen is deductable.
It'd be interesting to see a venue's cost breakdown for a show, what their margins are. On the surface it would seem they are just collecting money, but there's got to be significant overhead cost on their part - mortgages, taxes, utilities, labor costs, etc, etc... so it'd be very interesting to see their margins for a show, especially comparable sized venue for what this band played in the example.
If I can ever get my hands on that kind of info, I'll for sure do a video on it.
@@TankTheTech Tall order, I know
With the state of private ownership and venue ownership, places to play at are likely also trying to pass costs to the band, and the fans, if possible....So for everyone, it looks like it's difficult all around.
We totally need to know this if possible. Not sure what the best way to go about this is but with this sort of info and the topic of merch cuts being as hot as it is, if I’m a venue that needs these large cuts to just keep the proverbial lights on, I would not want to be lumped in with the parasitic venues and would provide at least an itemized sheet like this, maybe even a +/- 5% on the margin to keep it even more vague if you have to. But if venues aren’t willing to at least paint a vague picture of “sorry but we have to, here’s why” that’s a bad look.
@@npinjest7779 I don't know if that would really matter. Just shoving their hand into a pot and seeing what lands in it, seems a little off to cover their costs. Would probably be a lot better if they just said "this is the value we're offering you. I.e. the cost they have for the night with a slight increase for profit. It's amount x if you want to play at our venue".
I don't know why the price you're paying should be tied that closely to how much merch you're selling. Because in the end, it is added to the fee you're paying them for the rent regardless. I don't think the cost for them increases significantly whether you're selling merch or not. It's not necessarily the value they're bringing that impacts merch sales but rather the bands name and brand.
Taking one fourth for a spot in a venue the band had already rented out, seems like a lot.
If a venue reads this and I'm off - you're welcome to prove me wrong.
Basically, working in the music industry is a financially stable career choice, except if you're a musician. The people who are responsible the venue being full to begin with. That's an absolute ripoff
Sadly thats most creative industries
I mean this band specifically is making a lot of money. Each member is making pre tax 2k a night (I'm assuming 5 piece). Play 150 shows a year and you're making 300k a year each just on merch. That's before festivals which are better paying especially for a band of this size.
Not to mention that they're also making money on ticket sales. I don't know how much the band makes per ticket sale but even if it's 10% split 5 ways that's still 6k each per night from a 11k cap venue assuming a 30 euro ticket which is a serious low ball guess.
This band is making a huge amount of money.
Obviously much smaller bands are not making much money.
@@bengreenbank Yeah I was gonna say all these costs are their crew and logistics so anything Net is just 10k profit split between the members for a single day and it says they are playing two shows. If they made even half that the second day thats like 2-5k per night. I would not be bitching about that lol. But thats ideals so I'm not going to act like all gigs even make profit. Also that sales tax is insane. 25%? holy shit. if you're in the US itd be like 7-10% at the highest in most places.
Really cool that you're in the position that bands trust you with this info and to keep their confidence. These breakdowns are super eye opening.
That's totally nuts!!! I expected it to be unfair, but not to this extent.
As a fan of some Japanese bands, I've already thought a lot about what a tour could mean for these bands in terms of logistics and finances. To see such numbers is just sad, pathetic and worrying.... Thanks to the band who gave you this information, and thank you for sharing this information with the public. 🙏🏻
Well that just shows I am doing the right thing when I avoid standing in the line at the merch booth wasting time and instead buying merch I am interested in from the online stores most bands have. I guess that nets the artists more. While this doesn't factor in directly into tour earnings, I would assume that online merch sales go up while a band is touring because the incentive to buy is bigger at that point.
Honestly, I'd wonder how much the difference is. Because this would certainly make me think twice before buying it at the venue instead of online.
Only thing is that a lot of times the tour shirts are not available online.
That is where I am at.
It is hard to know if the bands aren't getting screwed with online sales either, but I haven't heard complaints.
Besides, I don't like most tour t-shirts. I don't like those that have the schedule on the back and it seems that every tour shirt has that goofy thing.
Unless I know for a fact that the venue doesn't charge merch fees - unless they provide the workers to sell - I am not spending a dime on their property.
That includes drinks. I am not spending $20 for a watered-down cup of crap beer.
Keep in mind, it REALLY depends on where you're buying the merch. If the band has an OFFICIAL online store, that's your best bet. But if it's something like EMP, Impericon, or anything else, they've probably just licensed it and the band isn't making a percentage of sales.
@@TankTheTech good to know. I'm about to see FIR & INK soon and I'm debating on getting merch at the venue or just buying from their official store site
this is where i'm at too mainly cuz i just hate standing in line. i mostly do it if they have vinyl or cds i want. but otherwise i search out a bands own merch store.
So sad to see that the artists gets so little for it.
Considering that the whole business is based on them, they should get more!
So little? If a regular company/retailer has more then an 8% profit margin, people would be screaming bloody murder and would never buy their goods.
It's like this at every instance a band creates any kind of money. Everyone want's a cut.
They make much more than that. This is a "worst case scenario" situation. Band using that as a boohoo pls buy our merch situstion... à shirt cost 3$ post print they sell it 50$, and most venue dont take a cut.
Yep. I'm in this startup phase realizing that everyone involved in our tour makes more than we do as individual musicians in the band. Same at home in the local music scene. My wife owns a bar that I played at and was also a bartender and they all walked out the door with more cash in hand than any of us musicians. I realize their pay doesn't scale at the same rate and if we ever do become more successful that balance will equalize and then flip in our favor but at this early stage, we are the investors hoping to see a return.
Everybody.
As a 30-year musician who hasn't broken through to the regular touring/recording artist stage, I wonder why there are so many secrets in the industry. I didn't know about merch fees until about 7 years ago. Why is it taboo to talk about things? It's like artists are just agreeing to let a system that they know is unfair and unjust keep perpetuating itself. I don't get it.
Very cool look at things Tank. Thank you for posting & breaking down!
It's not too surprising for me, because of my experience in the computer games industry. Back in the 80s/90s I was working for a games writing company, and our best-selling game sold for £14.99 in stores, of which we as a company got 72p - under 5%. The big chain stores charged 55% to put it on their shelves (less for smaller stores but they sold way fewer), then you've got distribution, production, marketing, etc (all arranged by the publishing company who needed their cut). Some things don't change...
Reminds me of the contract from the record label. They offered us 12% of sales, contingent on us signing over all the publishing rights. From that 12% we had to give our mgmt and the producer 1% each, leaving 10% to split between the 4 of us.
People only see revenue, not profit.
I remember being on tour as an opening act, merch was everything. We didnt get paid for performances and selling that extra shirt or cd was the difference of sleeping in the car or in a hotel.
I've been there too and only experienced the cut of merch a couple times and thought it was fucked up. This was back in the early 00's. This list here shows me that this is a pretty big band with a big production and crew. This isn't the singer's girlfriend selling t-shirts in the back of the bar. This is a serious business operation and the venue has expenses but % per sale is a really piece of shit move tho. Imagine owning a bar and the landlord says you have to give them 25% of each drink sold every night. That's total bullshit. I've never owned a bar but the way shit is going these days I wouldnt be surprised if this was partially true. LOL.
@@Kirkshelton "the singers girlfriend selling t-shirts" lol i felt attacked. Youll never vuess who our merch person was on the road lmao. But seriously though. Yeah, this list is definitely a different perspective compared to what I have experienced, and truthfully, i think it is great for up-and coming artists so see that even once you "make it", there is a lot more that comes with touring, selling your merch, and so on. Ive, personally never seen a list like this, however, when we did a few back to back shows with Tech N9ne, we did get a chance to talk to him and one of the topics of discussion was him basically explaining the difference of an up and coming artist and a nationally touring artist and everything that comes with it. Like "yeah we rake in a lot of money, but touring definitely aint free. Here's where all that money goes...." it was quite interesting and eye opening.
Oh and with the venue percentages, i agree with you. Thats bullshit. Like, WE BROUGHT THOSE PEOPLE TO YOU THAT BUY THOSE DRINKS. why should we pay a percentage. We already made you money
We got to the level where it felt like we were running a business more than being a band. You have bills and people you have to pay and not a lot of revenue coming in. Bus rental, driver, driver hotel, gas, tour manager, merch costs, crew costs and everything else. It gets crazy and then you end up paying more people to figure it all out for you. Lots of reality checks when you get down about. We'd always be like "were on a tour bus on a major tour with a record deal. This is what we wanted. We're living our dreams" even though it didn't always feel like it.
@@Kirkshelton i can understand that.
I usually buy merch from bands especially in smaller venues. But if venues are taking that much I would absolutely buy it off the band’s website. Hopefully that gets more money to the band. I mean I pay $40 for a tee shirt at a $25 show pretty regularly.
Truly eye opening and great job!!! This is an immensely important topic and this really helps put some numbers and facts into the argument that bands have it difficult on the road. My first gut reaction: This makes me want to support the bands more by buying their merch online and to avoid giving my money to the music venues.
What would be really interesting is to see if a venue would be willing to share their expenses(taxes, payroll, insurance, rent or mortgage, etc) vs profit margins (beverage sales, food sales, cuts from band for merch, rent fee from concert promoter, etc). It would be different from country to country, city to city, venue to venue, but I'd love to see that.
Considering music venues can be open as bars, event spaces, sporting arena's, etc, my sympathy sides with the bands and musicians.
i‘m not willing to pay 40€ for a t-shirt when i’ve already paid 100+€ for the ticket. but man… those fees are wild 😮
See, ticketmaster has fucked the game worse than anybody else. It used to be, pay $40 for a tee shirt at a show you paid $25 to get into.
@@DJBuglip remember they also own: live nation, which owns a lot of venues.
Thanks for making this vid and thanks to whatever band shared this info. It is truly eye opening and sad that they only get such a small percentage of the overall sales.
Thanks for the video breakdown were informative. What I would add is that there is no VAT in the US, while there is a sales tax which is a much lower rate. So for a show in the US with a sales tax rate of 7% it brings the net to close to 26%.
Well done Sir! As a PT Merch guy myself yeah, a lot of people don't realize the expenses involved and how little the bands actually make from Merch
It's crazy because at one point it was the best option to buy merch because THAT'S where most of the bands get their money from outside of tickets, but it's very telling that maybe online merch buying is the way to go. Though when i think about it, aren't most m3rch stores not owned/run by the band either? Just a 3rd party license to sell merch? Who knows what the numbers look like there too 😔
Man, I hope they're better. Bands get screwed so hard until they can dominate the negotiations.
The fact that everyone knew that merch was their bread and butter has turned the wolves on the bands and now there are hands extending towards them from all directions looking to take from those sales.
It's just crazy. No wonder smaller bands are facing a hard time. But on the other hand, it makes you want to suppport musicians even more.
But how can we support them? They earn nearly nothing for streams or record sales+nearly nothing (if you are a small band/artist ) from touring and now only a little bit from merchandise sales. I wonder that so many little artist /bands survive more than 1 year
Your content is very informative and important, thank you for sharing all this information and educating others. After watching this video I found that FAC have a website which tells you which venues charge 0% for the sale of merch, and I was glad to find that the two venues I’m attending later this year are on that list. I will check the list again when I’m having to decide between locations and venues. So thank you!
Those are some eye opening numbers right there and this conversation needs to continue.
I’m a former TM for arena level bands and this settlement sheet is very strange. It is true that in foreign markets you are going to net a lot less than you will domestically, but even with that, there are things on this sheet that really shouldn’t be there, at least I have never seen these things on a settlement sheet before. The first one that stands out to me is the insurance - I don’t think I’ve ever seen that on a merch settlement sheet as it is a SHOW cost, it’s not a merch cost. That is kind of the main overall thing here, they are putting things in that are show or even tout costs as line items on the merch settlement to make their net seem as low as possible. The second thing is the crew which apparently includes their bunks on the bus, their flights, their hotels, and all their other costs. Crew costs like this would NEVER be on a merch sheet and dude you have to know this if you’ve been working in the touring biz for awhile, that is just silly. It is a tour cost that would come out of the ENTIRE tour gross, not just the merch. By taking it out of the merch like this as opposed to the show gross it’s just obvuously trying to make their merch net seem as small as possible. Then graphic designs??? WTF, this is a really weird one. Same with “manufacture” - Any band of this level most likely has a merch deal and the designers are all part of the deal, the band doesn’t really pay for them. If you wanted to be really clear you could say they pay for them out of the commission that the merch company takes, but it shouldn’t be coming out of a show settlement. Let’s see, what other weird shit is in here…. An outside the venue “merch truck”?? I’ve never seen such a thing, no tour that I was ever on had one of those, but if they’re selling merch where’s the income from what they sold? Is it just lumped into the grand total of merch sales? I would love to see that income as it’s own line item so you could determine whether that is actually making money or not, if the “outside merch truck” is only netting 5K and it costs you 10K to have it then it’s not worth it, but you can’t figure that out by looking at this sheet.
Ok to summarize, they are clearly factoring in a lot of other stuff that you normally wouldn’t account for in a nightly merch settlement, and these are things you usually account for on a TOUR basis so the cost of paying the crew and their room and board is usually coming out of the show fees. If they want to do their accounting like this, they can do that, it seems weird to me but maybe they just like doing it this way, but the real upshot is that at the end of the day if they account for it like this then their show profits would seem higher than normal because instead of paying these things from their show fees, they’re paying for them out of merch. It’s basically which “pocket” of income is going to pay for something, because when you’re out on your the merch sales isn’t your only source of income, but in doing it like this they’re making their merch net seem WAY lower than I have ever seen before and as I have said, I’ve never seen people do their merch settlements like this before. It’s very very misleading IMHO.
so glad you saw this too , so much of this doesnt seem to add up
@@deadadam666 there is actually a lot more that I could have pointed out that I didn't... so they're doing 11K level shows, and they have THREE traveling merch people with them ???? WTF. I did shows in venues twice that big and only had ONE traveling merch guy. ONE. Obviously there were more people working the merch tables but everyone else was supplied locally by the promoter or the venue, the tour merch guy just oversaw them and gave them more product if they sold out of something, and then did the settlement at the end of the night. While we are on that subject of the one merch guy, he took care of all the advancing and logistics, there was no paying an "outside consultant" for that, he handled everything. And now that I think about it, I don't even think he traveled with the touring party - like I said before the band had a merch deal, and I think in most cases the merch company supplied the merch person, and he handled all his own travel and flights, and it never even came out of the tour budget at all. There might have been some tours where we did travel with a merch guy that we was hired by the band, but it was still just one guy, not 3, and they advanced everything so there was no outside consultants to pay.
This is all very bizarre to me, I tried reaching out to Tank on twitter cause I'd love to have someone challenging these things and maybe he could do a counterpoint video, because I think it's really painting an inaccurate picture and likely to make fans go nuts when it really isn't this bad.
I've seen outside merch trucks, with hours long lines of many hundreds if not thousands of fans.. At Taylor Swift shows.
But if your not Taylor Swift and you don't have hours-long lines, umm maybe not?
@@deadadam666 Right? Not to mention that dividing the adjusted nightly graphic design cost from the total would imply 24 shows... and the travel expenses/lodging state 2 shows on/1 night off, which would suggest a 36 day tour. With all other costs accounted for, this would add up to the band themselves grossing about a quarter million euro in just over 5 weeks. Not shabby for riffing for a living.
@@miket2646 and that would just be their merch income. They also get a show fee for the concert, either a flat guarantee or a split if it's above a certain number. When you're at the level of 11K venues, your guarantee should be well into the six figure range, so add that to the equation as well. Of course the tour has a lot of costs that would be paid out of those show fees, but you get the point.
Does each band on the lineup that night have to also pay the venue these kind of numbers as well? This is crazy.. ive heard many times that a bands merch is how they make most of their money while on tour.. man I seriously love your content!! As a musician who never got the opportunity to go on tour, i love all the behind the scenes info you bring to the front. Awesome stuff man!! 🤘
I watched a ton of videos on YT, but I can safely say, you're content is definitely one of the best on YT. Thanx for your time !!!
I went to a Gwar show in 1994. Oderus told the crowd how the venue was overcharging for their merchandise and that we shouldn’t buy anything. He said meet them outback after the show if you want anything. Ever since I try to catch the merch guys after the show so I can buy something
As a new band that has not started any tours or shows yet we have already looked ahead at these types of issues we will not be selling any merch at shows. We will advise all our fans in advance that all tour related designs will be in the online store. Lower cost of items is the primary reason for this. Our fans will be able to purchase a shirt related to the tour for 20 to 25 USD as opposed to the 35 to 40 some bands are charging ( in this economic state asking a fan to spend that on a shirt is not cool ). The tour items will only be online during the tour schedule and after the tour will be removed. We realize this will lead to lower sales to fans who find out about us at a show but we feel the lower cost savings to the fan as well as overall lower touring expense will be beneficial on both sides. Just our plan, may not work out but we are going to give it a shot because the venue fees & carrying expense are out of control.
The last time I bought band shirts, they'l were 16-18 bucks wtf
@@xNachtmahRx Yeah the good old days are gone. Go look at the mech store of any major touring artist and you will see where things are at now.
Hope it works out for you man, good luck!
They only take a cut from high selling bands in large venues so you've either got a few years before its a problem ( if ever ). Another tip is display merch pictures and keep the actual merch in the van, if someone asks for a shirt bring em out to the van.
We were just at Inkcarceration and Limp Bizkit headlined one night but had no merch, nothing, zip , nada. I wonder if this math had anything to do with it. It seems really odd to have a headliner not bring merch.
A good solution could be merch pre sale online before shows, you order what you want and collect on the day
that way it cuts out merch sales at the shows and the bands wont be left with excess stock
Yeah. I ‘chased’ ‘the dream’ for years and it nearly killed me. Reframing & redirecting my ‘career’ as it relates to sharing my music with the world was the best thing I ever did. Being an ‘arena’ band anymore is nearly impossible & requires sacrificing waaaaay too much to get there. Best wishes to all the heavy bands out there. Make the music you want to make. Eff everyone else.
What do you think about playing your set, telling a band to order merch online and have them pickup their merch directly after the show upon showing the band their confirmation number? Technically this would mean that they are not selling merch at the venue they play so it'd seem like the promoter and venue couldn't do anything about that.
They'd still get blacklisted from the venues for stuff like that.
Yeah, there's a lot of logistics going into that that might make it a huge hassle, as well as what Nathan said above that venues may just blacklist bands that try something like that.
@@TankTheTech @nathan_nothing Yeah, that'd make sense... I'm sure they would know exactly bands are trying to do.
@@nathan_nothing *
This will probably get you into trouble with venues, I would say: ship it from the 'online shop to home'.
Smaller bands even sell their merch themselves. I was watching Cellar Darling for the first time live and was surprised that their merch stand was empty before the show. Well, it turned out that Anna Murphy, the singer of the band herself was selling it... I do buy merch especially for smaller bands to support them and will keep doing it, even if i have way way too many T-Shirts and CDs at home.🤣
Wow, that's kinda mind blowing info. Certainly one of the more interesting clips I've seen on this or any channel. Thanks for aharing that info.
I work at a 4* hotel where quite a few big to very BIG touring bands and hip hop acts stay when they come to my city. And I'm not in the sales dept. but know what they are usually charged per room wheb they book, and based on how much they are charged per room and how many people are I the crew they put up in the hotel (most of the time the artists stay there as well but not always) and that is NOT CHEAP AT ALL. Kind of amazes me how much is spent on rooms that most of these crews spend very little time in actually. unless it's a day off or two the crew is there maybe 8-10hours, if that. But glad to see these artists treating their crew so well and not just making them have to stay on the bus all the time or stay at super cheap crappy hotels.
I tend to get one shirt and call it. It is my badge of honor. I typically can't spend much at concerts. But YES! Large venues are taking to much.
How do these costs compare to the band selling their merch online? There are differenet costs but I wonder if they make more from online sales.
enjoying these videos, its really amazing how much things have changed since i was part of the industry. I was out of Nashville back in 1995-2016. Of all my travels, i have to say some of my fondest memories were of Starwood... Such a shame it no longer exists, i was a rigger and lighting tech. I have to agree that merch job can be ridiculously brutal and if they get a tip they deserve it with the hours worked most the time very little appreciation for their hard work.
That’s insane. Always buying that t-shirt now. Every little bit helps. Venues make more money in just alcohol sales alone and without the bands they wouldn’t sell one drink.
This may explain why merch is outrageously priced at bigger shows. Also why some you see tip jars from time to time.
Yep, i saw Spirit World recently, shirt was $35 i just paid 40 and told the merch girl to keep it because i know
When I went to see Iron Maiden a tour T-shirt was 45$.
Would a better option be to buy from the band's online merch store, having to upload proof that you had bought a ticket to the website to access exclusive tour merch? Which of course, could be bought before or after the event, with no need to mention it while performing, to avoid venues getting all pissy because they don't get their free lunch.
From a fan view this is a very informative video.
In the 80’s/90’s I used to go to gigs 3 or 4 times a week and buy merch every time to support the band on the night. Back then it was always known the tours were expensive and never made any money but the band also got the majority of merchandise profits. The bands toured to support albums which sold by the truck load and they were rewarded with significant royalties on sales.
Fast forward a couple of decades and the world of online streaming.
To take my family to gigs and buy merchandise is quite simply a luxury item. As much as I loved going to gigs and would love to take my son to many of the major tours now. Like many others with a family to support on an average Joe pay cheque, a few hours of live entertainment for the family (at the cost of several hundreds of ££’s) verses putting food on the table and paying the bills is not a difficult equation to solve. (BTW I would love a cut of €10k as a day rate between 4 or 5 team members).
My last gig was Slayer, and I was hoping to see Motley Crue / Def Leppard this year, but to take the wife and son would have worked out at £450 for tickets (standing), £50 for fuel, £250 for food and accommodation over night as we would have had to travel 180 miles to the gig location, it’s not hard to see why merch purchases would have not been a priority if we had attended.
The way the music industry has gone in general is much the same as many big corporations, all about the bottom line…..such a pity, maybe it’s time for a Bud Lite moment…….and a rethink as to how bands are rewarded for their artistic endeavours and less well established bands should be supported.
The top down economy has f@*t it for all..
Thanks for having this discussion. A bigger question is then the profit from ticket sales, or even alcohol sales. It could be that the band does just fine, but if you look only at Merch sales, things look atrocious. But indeed the expenses here for merch is insane.
It's become a bigger issue because all the other costs are squeezing even harder now, so where "yeah, I don't like it much, but cost of doing business I guess" might have been the repsonse to a flat fee under "use of merch area", especially if venue staff are actively working in some capacity for it, but taking a cut - especially 25% off the top - gets people thinking words like "racketeering".
8% revenue is insane, but I have a couple thoughts about these numbers.
- The VAT tax differ a lot depending on the country, for example in Switzerland it's 7.7%, in Italy should be 22% if I'm not wrong, it's a huge difference. Sweden is probably one of the higher, and could explain why they chose that specific country for this example.
Also, companies usually set different prices for different countries in order to adjust to the local VAT (the price without VAT is the same, the difference is the VAT), at the end is the final buyer who pay the VAT price, the bands don't do that?
As an example, I set a price for an item at 10 USD, in a country with a VAT 7.7% I sell it at 10.80 USD, in a country with a VAT 22% I sell it at 12.20 USD.
- the 3 crew guys and all the expenses related, it's correct only if these 3 guys are there ONLY for the merchandise store (or they have also other jobs, like set the stage for example?), otherwise their expenses should be split and not accounted only on the merchandise costs.
- if they have a store outside the venue, for those sells they don't pay the 28% to the venue, here they apply the 28% to the total, as they sold nothing outside, or the store was still inside the venue perimeter, but if it's that, where is the point to have an outside store?
Nevertheless, 28% taken by the venue to do almost nothing is crazy.
But considering these numbers and assuming they are correct, I would expect an increase of the merch price, and if we want to support the band as I always do at a show, maybe it's better to buy the merch at their online shop, or I'm wrong?
Good points. I'd add these as well.
VAT is an indirect tax ultimately charged on the buyer. If this is a sizeable band then should set up a European merchandising company and could claim input tax repayments on some of these amounts. They may already do this and we aren't seeing it on this.
Like you, I think there might be some double counting on the crew.
Credit card fees are a separate expense expense than whatever is going to the venue.
Yup, thats my take also. Band shouldn´t loose cent from VAT. It should be on customer in europe. Meaning merch is more expensive by that VAT from that amount of money that band thinks is baseline profitable price for that item. Like yes it taken from gross profits. But if there would be no VAT then that merch must be cheaper by that amount of money. In the end band still would earn same amount of the money.
I am starting to think that given the revenue flow these bands have, they may consider setting up the band as a corporation and getting a VAT registration, so they can get a VAT refund. It will lead to more accounting & administration costs, but I feel it will be worth it.
For those of you who have no idea what I am talking about, if a company has a VAT registration, it means they can pay VAT only on the value they add to their product or service. Put simpler, the band could get a refund for the VAT paid for the production of those T-shirts, for their equipment, or even for the fuel they bought for the merchandise truck. The way it works is you pay the entire VAT amount first, then you submit your invoices to your tax authority to prove what is the actual value you added, and the tax authority reimburses you the amount of VAT that has been already paid.
Unfortunately, it requires that you get a VAT-compliant invoice for absolutely every expense you make, like hotel rooms, truck fuel, travel tickets, etc. because otherwise the tax authority won't recognise your expenses. This takes time and these invoices are more complicated than the regular ones, as you need to fill in all the business information, break down what amount of VAT has been paid and so on. Yet, if they have their merchandise fees settled remotely, it could be done easier. This could save them quite a lot of VAT, which is a big part of their expenses.
@@zhivik That could be a problem for small bands, and probably the amount is too small to pay an accountant to do the job, it's extremely complicated also because they work in a lot of EU countries and they need to do it in every country I think, but Tank said this is a big band, and they are, they sold out the venue, I suppose they already have a management team, which should be responsible for this as well, are big money and would be surprised if they didn't ask a refund. Also because it doesn't apply only to the merchandising but to every fee they have related to their activity where they aren't the final buyer, on tour or not.
@@Richarddraper I hope they requested the reimbursement, but in that case they shouldn't deduct the 25% to claim their revenue is only 8%, but only the part of the VAT they ultimately need to pay, and the result would be an higher gain.
Ok. So here's something I've been trying to reconciliate, and I'm more than open to ideas (both as a musician and a fan).
This year, I've been doing my very best to support the bands I love. As many as I can, but obviously, I can't do it for all because... well, it gets expensive. But that means going to shows, buying their music from Bandcamp, etc.
I know about the situation with merch sales, so I decided... the BEST way I can support the band, is to buy my merch (say... a t-shirt) from them directly. That means though their website. That means bypassing the venue's merch tax. Depending on the system they use, the band will very likely be paying a percentage of each sale to their online store, but I'm guessing/hoping it's not as high as what the venues charge. So... in theory, fine. However... now I end up paying for shipping. Considering they'll more than likely ship the merchandise from a different country than mine, this means I end up paying a shipping amount that almost equals, or in some cases, exceeds, the cost of the merch I'm buying. So... that immediately puts a damper on the whole thing. Unless I buy from a store in my country that imports merch, but now I'm buying from a third party, and I have no idea of how much they paid the band for the merch.
So... kind of a convoluted situation here. Would you have any suggestions as to how best support artists/bands in this regard? Thanks!
8% pre-tax is a solid profit margin for a consumer products company, but definitely lower than I was expecting for licensed merch.
This is just wild. Bands should keep as much bank from everything as they can. They're the whole reason the industry even exists.
The bands i'm buying merch from have their own online store and it is run by the band itself - so i assume ( hope ) more of my money sticks to the band.
and i don't like standing in line at the merch booth for hours....
BUt does those Band also sell the Tour shirts afterwards in the Online shop? Because if the merch booth have 1 on 1 the same shirts on the online shop allready before the tour starts its useless to buy them on tour!
@@nachtelfirokese88 sometimes bands have their tour shirt in their onlineshop, sometimes tour shirts are only sold at concerts.
In the end you have to decide if it's more important to have a tour shirt and missing a chunk of the show while standing in line for merch or just skip it.
At EC in Leipzig i was checking their online store while i was waiting in line and the moment i saw that they had the stuff i wanted in their online store i ordered my shit online and went back to the concert.
sometimes it's as easy as that, sometimes not.
Are we gonna get music/gear reactions ever again? Not gonna lie I miss 2020 Tank content. Not complaining its your channel and you gotta do what makes you happy. I just miss the content that got me interested in your content in the first place. Much love bro 🤘🏻
The band in question is Journey, they started the merch craze back into the 80's, sold millions in merchandise and still selling.
Never in my life have I paid that little for a concert ticket. I must be missing something. Every concert I’ve gone to at an arena sized venue has tickets ranging from around $100 to $1000 each.
These 11 bucks are not the ticket price. It is what an average fan paid for merch. 11 000 fans, 11 Euros each, there you have the 126 000ish Euros which is the "total" income. It is only the merch income, unless I misunderstood. The tickets are another story completely. 11 000 tickets even 50 Euros a piece make 550 000.
@@toro5280 ahh ok, thanks.
This makes me want to ask a father/son I know. One is the Merch manager for one of the larger nostalgia 70s rock bands and the other is the merch manager for two large 80's hard rock/metal acts. I'm curious how their numbers line up. I know the son, for his side of the business, owns his own semi/trailer for hauling merch from show to show. That 25% is a huge amount for a venue to take off the top. I'm curious if the band gets a cut of the concession sales or if that's purely kept by the venue.
I have known about the venues getting a cut but this takes it to another level thus explaining why merch itself is so expensive. Thanks for this. Really cool info 🤘
Hey, great video, thank you for sharing this!
It would be great to see similar breakdown when the band gave merch rights to a merch company.
I'm based in EU and worked in music industry for 30 years, all sort of things from touring as TM, backliner, to doing local merch concessions. I'd have a lot to say, but want to keep this short.
On general bigger bands use merch companies that sell merch for them in Europe. When you have a European based merch company VAT does not matter anymore, as all amounts (merch income and costs related to it) are calculated net of VAT.
But yes, on general I agree that local merch concessions fees are too high, but have arguments pro and against, similar like Tank The Tech said.
A few thoughts. That's 8% profit after salaries, so it's actual profit. So they've covered their business costs and some money is left over. That's good, everyone got paid and they have more money than they started with. But yeah, the margin is slim.
VAT varies by country, so some countries are more profitable (any isn't probably much less profitable).
The venue does "bring" the customers to the booths. The booths wouldn't be there without the venue. So the venue probably has a good case for getting a cut. But it should probably be less than the band's cut.
The "expenses" might include salaries for the band and they're not mentioning that. Profit is what's left after paying employees
Damn... 8% is indeed crazy. Crazy good! People don't realize how thin the profit margins are on a lot of businesses. Retail averages 0.5-3.5%, for example.
However, another way to look at this is that the band was able to provide employment at decent rates and for a pretty fun job (for the right kind of person) for 3 merch crew, 2 truck drivers, an artist, an accountant, security, and at least one office support person. They were also able to patronize what is probably a small business manufacturing the merch, a number of hotels, airlines, trains, probably a print shop or two for the creation of the displays. They were able to support the venue, keeping it afloat and making it something venues want to continue to do (allowing concerts to be put on at them), and they were able to contribute to the local economy in the form of taxes.
On top of all of that, they got to keep 11k€ in profits!
That sounds like a good deal to me!
People often forget that even a business that breaks even, even a business that _inherently_ breaks even like a non-profit organization, is still providing a living for its employees, services for its customers, taxes for its government, patronage for suppliers and other support businesses, and more. Yeah, the "bottom line" gets a lot of glamor, but it's not really all that big a part of what a business does. It's just the part that shareholders focus on, probably _too strongly_ given what's happening in the world...
@TankTheTech
I’ve been the LD in several local to me venues over the last 15 yrs. I’ve been calling out this practice on that level for 10 of them. Thank you for covering this. I wonder if it has any bearing on LN suspending those practices on the club level.
Can you bring to light the ticket resale scam that leaves sold out shows with a half full venue. That’s another one that needs attention
I have started looking at the merch tables and finding what I want and then going on the band's website and buying it there. Maybe I miss out on a special tour shirt, but what I get will still be cool. Also, I normally wear 3X in t-shirts, and they rarely have those at the shows.
If the band has a website, buy from the website.
Some bands if they have like excess Winter merch and need to clear for the warmer months or new album merch, they'll have a sale.
Buy from the website so the money goes to the band.
People are more likely to buy a tee at a show, high on feelings and a bit of alcohol, than when hung over at work the day after. I love getting merch at a show, but I've never bought from an official band page. An probably never will.
This is why the project I'm working on is going to be a studio project, probably won't make anything from it, but I also won't be touring which I would have no way to afford.
I love this analysis and totally agree these numbers are ridiculous. One thing I’d like to add to the conversation is the positive financial impact of paying the crew members that managed the Merch operation. It’s not solely about the profit at the end of the day, this band hired and paid many people along the way (graphic design, mfg, office staff, on site sellers, etc…) and sustained their careers in the industry. While the numbers are crazy (looking at you VAT) this was a positive net outcome and financially supported a number of people along the way.
hey man nice to see your channel growing. im a member since you had 5k subscribers. nice discussion.
wish the best for you tank...
keep with the good work
Tank, new crystal lake. You gotta let us watch your face melt on this one! Don't sleep on it!
Definitely I Prevail, they were €75 for a t-shirt in Dublin, a t-shirt, not a hoodie..
If this is sabaton, when I saw them in London, that outside truck sold out of merch before the show began and their show specific t-shirt were all completely gone before doors opened.
Seems like getting your merch out is as much a passion project as the music, makes sense. I don't agree with the insane venue cuts, but it also makes sense. Especially a huge venue that is providing the literal space for you to run a $100k popup shop. Super interesting stuff
Thanks for this. As a concert buff + data analyst, this stuff is so interesting! Some curious choices by the band (outside truck sales for 10K as an example) so would be interesting to compare if you were able to get such info from a band who did not have those expenses. Taking out some of those things would probably take their profit margin to ~20%, but hard to know for sure.
Dude this truly is MIND BLOWING!!!!
Unbelievable mate
Shoutout from Australia 🇦🇺 🤘🏻🤘🏻
I would like to see a video on alternative ways to sell merch on the road that reduces costs. For instance, I've thought that creating city-specific print-on-demand tour merch ONLY available to order from a kiosk at the merch table (or a QR code on the display with a link only good for 12 hours after show) might be one way to do it. Particularly if your POD supplier had a regional presence (thinking Europe vs. US) that would ship quickly and affordably. That would reduce how much transport is involved, leftover stock, and the up-front manufacturing investment, while offering a unique design that's custom per city and available on a wider range of items than you'd normally be able to stock on tour. Yes, POD has a lower margin, but if you can find a way to capture the buying impulse and excitement without risk, then it could be worthwhile. Thoughts?
Shared on my Facebook page! Very good info. Thank you :)
Quick note, venues are also bound to pay VAT + taxes from the concession revenue. Which from the 35k go down to 18k-ish. Still, a pretty high cut, and definitely should be lower.
Great video! Keep up the great work!
Full-time musician here: 10-20 years ago, show guarantees and merchandise sales were the steady income that a professional band could rely on. In 2023, touring is something that is break even at best, and at worst a "promotional investment". Personally, I view it as "brand awareness" due to the astronomical overhead costs. And while it's true that merch cuts have been around for a long time, it was mostly something larger bands had to deal with. Thanks to Live Nation's monopoly on small and mid tier venues, bands at that level are now also obligated to pay merch cuts. Because of this, I've actually decided to STOP performing live unless the opportunity is so good I can't say no. It's just not worth it anymore.
I always wondered how it worked, thanks for sharing man!
It’s definitely going to come to a head at some point in the near future. Bands are getting the shaft on streams, merch, and touring in general. Id love to see bands take a 3-6 month hiatus and pour time into a quality virtual show. For example using video games and live streams. Call of duty, Fortnite, whatever people are playing these or do a cool visual pay per view TH-cam stream. Deal away with venues for that short time or at least the ones charging insane cuts. Don’t wanna kill the good small ones. But I think that’d benefit everyone.
The VAT figure is misleading. That gross figure is offset by the VAT on items you purchase which you claim back on your VAT settlement, so VAT on fuel, vehicle hires, venue hire, hotels etc which is incurred in the country should be offset against it.
Last concert I’ve been a bottle of weather cost 3€ and hamburgers 12€ insane prices by the venue
The main thing that this makes me want to do is buy merch directly from the band’s website as opposed to at the shows.
There’s nothing like that in the moment buying to have the shirt show and souvenir, but I want to support the band, not make the venue rich.
I worry now that more people will just buy bootleg merch off of whatever Facebook pop up ad shows up, and then the band gets nothing at all.
I’ve been there and done that.
If you get a band that you like in a small club or something where they actually stand at their merch table signing autographs and such- just hand them some straight cash. Tell them to get a hot meal or put it in the gas tank. Those small bands are the ones that need the help most.
This video is super interesting. Would be cool to see a breakdown from someone like Taylor Swift. Keep up the great videos
Taylor Swift got smart and started selling merch outside the venue two days in advance under the guise of creating shorter lines on show day. I’m pretty sure LN’s contract only has language specific to show day and at the venue.
I thought it was a genius move to avoid the merch fees.
Would love to see the venue’s invoice and breakdown too. Wonder what their take home looks like!
Seeing something like this begs the question, why aren't more bands putting all of their merch sales into a truck on the sidewalk outside of the venue? Get a vendors permit, and that 25% is yours.
The sheet seems valid if we correct the thing that future-Tank points out.
Europe is a weird place in many ways. Im from Denmark and we have kind of the same VAT rules as sweden.
In this case:
Cut for venue: 35.420
Venue pays a 25% VAT of that giving the venue rougly a 25.000€ profit of which they will pay for everything merch-related (Staff, concessions etc).
This is still a WAY too high cut but we need to keep in mind that we dont know the actual expenses the venue has that are merch-related.
As the band states we dont know the costs but that need to be subtracted from the number before we can say that the venue makes 35k per show, when comparing it to the bands bottom-line.
Keep supporting the bands! Keep buying merchandise!
But maybe support them through their own direct channels.
A little note on VAT: It is a pass through tax, which is that you are paying the difference between tax paid when you obtain the merchandise and the tax collected when you sell it. So the 25% number may be smaller if a eurozone VAT of some sort was already paid to obtain the stock. It isn't always a simple cost (unlike american retail sales taxes).
Tank, as someone wo has been a TM and settled merch with venues and seen it all one thing that irks me a lot is doing shows in casinos. I've settled merch and done show settlements back in the "counting rooms" where there are shelves of shrink wrapped blocks of all denominations of money. HUGE amounts of money! And here are the casino reps demanding there cut of our merch. Sometimes not much if it wasn't a good night but still they want it. Granted there are a few who don't take a percentage but for the ones that do it is just something that irks the shit out of me.
I think casino shows are tacky and a sign the artist is declined. I know they might have a nice theater but still. I'd rather play a large bar venue than Indian casino
The band I play in makes crazy money on merch at shows that don’t take cuts. We take maybe 2 shirts to big festivals and big venues that takes a percentage. Some take different percentage’s for hard/soft items, so we just pick and choose what we take.
Only semi related, we also sell merch for a local dirt racing team and yeah, after it's all said and done you're LUCKY if you break even on merch. I'm surprised major bands aren't able to do better but I know that merch is tough.
Bands should make more than venues, EASILY, this shouldn't even be a debate.
if you want to really support a band, go and buy their merch online at their own store. That's what I've been doing when a bunch of tours were cancelled during the pandemic
Some ideas I've had for the merch I'd like to see.
- I know cotton t-shirts are cheap, but bands could look into cotton poly blend shirts.
- Years ago I went to some concerts where the bands had custom usb drives made and you could buy the drive and it included high quality audio files of the band's entire catalog.
- Sell me a code where I can download a copy of the artwork you're putting on the shirt so I can have it as wallpaper on my computer or my phone.
- Nice Enamel pins I could put on a bag, jacket or badge lanyard (same pin could also be a magnet)
- Band logo on a computer keyboard keycap.
- Work with a photographer and let me buy high quality pictures from the show that I'm at.
- Record the audio from the show and sell me a code so I can download that audio and listen to the I was at show again.
These last two might help some people keep their phone in the pocket during the show
None of these do anything about venues that take a percentage, but you'd be a lot more likely to get my money for something like these than a 100%cotton tshirt. Also a lot of them take up a lot less space than tshirts and you don't have to worry about sizing.
As a fan of music and going to shows, I want to support the artists and show love to the bands. I do buy merch, but it sucks that only a small percentage of the money goes to the bands.
I refuse to buy merchandise other than the music itself, DVDs, so you can watch them perform in live footage or music videos or books about the band.
I don't need trinkets with the band logo, symbols, or faces of the band on them. I have enough umbrellas, key rings, perfumes, t-shirts, bags, travel mugs, and water bottles at home to not need any more. These things are cheaper in the shops, longer lasting and sometimes with prettier designs.
Well-known bands don't need your financial support. If you want to support up and coming bands, buy their music and maybe extra copies for friends.
OK, so this is insightful and does shed light into how much impact the margin is hit by those fees.
However, one thing I would like to see is this income statement at an American venue that doesn’t have a VAT. The incidents that you cited at the beginning of the show were around North American tours where in Canada the VAT is 5% and in US standard sales taxes are 8-15%.
In the bands I have engaged with the margin % is double what this band’s statement was. The difference though is gross numbers size. They need a higher % to be able to make a living or good living touring. When you are that mid-level band close to being to truly make this their main job, those cuts really hurt and can demoralize.
Worth mentioning that when you get up in the Scandinavian countries, everything is more expensive, mainly because taxes are much higher, but the government provides more for their citizens, this has a knock on is taxes, wages, transport, fuel....
It would take a lot of the bands fans to maybe see this video and realize we should support the band directly through purchasing tour merch from their websites. After I saw Spiritbox earlier this year the put their tour merch online. It’s hard to not buy merch at a show cause it’s in the moment you love the band but maybe fans need to put a stop to this. But again it’ll be hard not to purchase merch. Now we understand why the prices are high for t shirts hoodies etc
Would love to see arena-playing bands bring 10-50 extra people on tour, different amount of people depending on the venue size. Also getting permits to open up a store in every country they visit. At least here in Sweden, selling stuff outside a venue require permits from local police. It's a lot more to it than "the venue takes the money".
Even though it may be costly, This supports my logic behind buying merch for every gig that I go to see, Some say that £40/45 for a shirt is very expensive and it definitely is but seeing these numbers, no wonder they’re having to raise prices!
It does make me wonder though how The Cure have been able to break even and not make a massive loss on their current tour.
It’s no secret that Robert Smith has been fighting to the nail with Ticketmaster to lower the. Ticket prices of the shows a massive amount, but not only that, I saw them at Wembley arena last December and their merch prices from what I remember were as follows:
T Shirts (Multiple designs and V Necks) - £25
Hoodies - £45
Posters (Exclusive numbered event posters) - £12.50
This is for Wembley Arena so no where near a small capacity venue.
The Bootleg guys were selling their own stuff outside and on some things they were charging more than the actual band themselves!
How the hell are they able to break even and not make a loss as their merch prices are the same equivalent worldwide!?