As I noted in the video, the end of the day issue isn't that scale change is happening, it's that we have taken 10 years to get to where we are in the game and are still missing a lot of content. Now, all of that content is on a different scale related to the new stuff, including some very expensive characters and Primarchs. The scale change here, unlike, say Chaos Space Marines in 40k, isn't a matter of changing 4 or 5 units and you're done. You have to update at least 36 legion specific elite units, every vehicle, special characters etc. Doing all of that, and doing so in a reasonable time frame is highly dubious, meaning that people will likely have a weird mish-mash of units in armies for several years where the height varies from unit to unit by 15-20% and vehicles look absurdly small next to new units. It doesn't make the choice of scale or the models themselves inherently bad, what it does mean is that a community that prides itself more on the hobbying side of things than the gaming side of things is being put into a crappy situation. Defend it however you like, but it's an absurd move, hence the video.
The reason they are making them so big is Gw didn't by the best printers for their cad jobs, they have a minimum size they can print for good detail, its why primaris are so big.
@@lolzyking656 that...makes too much sense. As I said in the community post and my own reply, I don't see the financial benefit in increasing the size, especially if they're going to be forced to sell existing stock that's at the older scale. But if they can't physically print at the older scale, then that could explain why they'd go for it anyways.
@@Traven158 I personally believe the larger scale models simply sell better. Im not a fan of this opinion, but I think it's true. And I think it means all of our complaints will fall upon deaf ears.
@@Traven158 they could probably get printers in todays market capable of the old scale, but as you can see going back, they adopted printing quite early, the Cerastus. the warlord, warbringer ect were designed in programs.
Preach on bro! The example shared on acceptance within the fandom really resonates with me. And, you're totally right, its a *huge* hurdle and its baffling how quickly those individuals will roll over to defend what they like. Let us all remember: It is good for us, the customers of this premium hobby, to be critical.
My bet: Someone who worked on the Inquisitor game is still really salty it never took off and is slowly increasing the size of the models until the entire 40k range is 54mm.
Simon Egan. If you know anything about him and why he joined Forge World. Aside from being a brilliant designer, it is why he was selected to work on the Primarchs. He prefers the larger scale.
@@marcwittkowski5146 super soldiers instead of possed guys, the Alpha Legion clearly modify the size and abilities of their marines theyve got guys that range in size from large human to small primarch. Not to mention the hint that they made a lot of their guys using the Alpha stage protocols so they are some where between a normal marine and a custode
Honestly that guy saying "accept the change" almost gave me a brain haemorrhage, like dude, if you buy a whole new fucking army of course it's gonna be inevitable, your the problem mate, what you said just proved it, maybe if you didn't throw all your monthly earning's that GW then we wouldn't have to worry about our 1000's of hours worth of investment and work go down the drain. Like, how can someone be so lax with re-buying an army you ALREADY had yet also get mad at people wanting consistency among what they buy? Is the community just getting dumber as time goes on? "Oh well, fuck it, guess i'm gonna have to spend another £2000 to play marines again, thanks GW, loving the new sculpts, hope we get a new Calgar model soon, the old one is SOoooooooo 2018..." Sorry that was a pretty angry rant but i swear people like that guy make me really struggle with this hobby.
It's amazing to me how miniatures from a few different historical companies in 28mm can mix with little problem, even if the sculpts are different, but GW can't maintain consistency in its own products. Guess they have to sucker people into rebuking Horus Heresy armies somehow.
Glad you said all this. Getting boring hearing the terrible excuse people make for GW. The DA term kits only came out just over a year ago. What are people doing with the Hersey armies now this is happening? I’ve held off buying anything FW since announcement What I never got was when they harp on about scale, but increase nothing else to match said scale as well like tanks, dreadnought or bikes. Tanks are small against things as it is with the heroic scale. Imagine one of these next to your rhinos. Ridiculous
What rustles my jimmies is that they could clearly have just increased the scale of Firstborns instead of spawning a new, whether you like Primaris or not, bloated line of models. This is now going to be the third line of models where the scale has just been changed in recent years with Chaos (though not very wide spread) and Orkz.
While I like the taller marines, I agree with Macca on that they don´t fit into the Horus Heresy. Everything was perfectly scaled to each other and introducing these larger marine really throw everything of. And considering that I just finished a bertayal at calth box, and being faced with painting up an entire new army bugs me I can only imagine how much it annoys horus heresy veterans. And finally, I am also painting up a pair of models made from the new CSM and the lore for them is that they are unusually large, like Alexis Polux, but that is going to get screwed with the new scale.
Sell everything, save your cash for the new releases, paint them again, become better painter. You have to look at the net positives. Everything will get redone in time too.
Really, there's only one problem with bigger models; and that is fitting less of them on the table. Suddenly, it all becomes a smaller skirmish game, entirely character based, rather than fielding a full army. Suddenly, all the tanks and vehicles become useless on the smaller table, with a smaller battlefield, and increasingly larger models. Look at the different scales for the titans, with the Adeptus Titanicus game. As someone who knows nothing about it, just looking in from the outside they simply look like space marine sized robots, as teeny tiny tanks and infantry divisions must be made redundant by the comparatively "giant" robots that can stomp skyscrapers flat. Playing the same game with the larger scaled titans might be super cool, but that scale makes them prohibitively expensive for a lot of people who, regardless, have still spent a lot of money on the deceptively cheaper infantry and tanks of this luxury hobby, as that encompasses a much larger part of the franchise's appeal. The way I see it, the Primaris themselves, currently with lesser variety and details, could easily end up being phased out by a whole newer range, never mind the firstborn marines. Firstborn have been short and stumpy since forever, and that's not a complaint from me. But the Primaris are closer to the Stormcast, which have recently seen a sudden change towards different proportions and detail, making the older ones look short and stumpy... despite them still being much newer than most of the firstborn space marine range. Perhaps the new range will be the REAL "firstborn", beginning with a reboot of the entire Horus Heresy miniature line, and "40k" itself, presumably with "tenth" edition, sees the same end as Warhammer, with the Old World replaced by the Realms in Age of Sigmar. Except this time, it'll just be a "break" from the 41st millenium as GW drags us back in time to relive the glory days of the Heresy, from start to present. Unless of course they already did that during the long years I was away from the hobby... I've got to say, though, I am interested to know what they have planned for tenth edition... you know, with the roman numeral X. It's a one-time-only opportunity to do something fun with that. But maybe I'm getting a little ahead of things. Frankly, I'm surprised we haven't seen a new edition of Rogue Trader with every edition of 40k, considering how obsessed they are with releasing tons of rulebooks. What's one more? Then a bestiary, like D&D... and various other expansions. I guess Warhammer Quest is essentially that already, except it's a whole boxed standalone game with it's own set of minis, rather than encouraging people to buy ALL the rest of GW's minis to use in their own custom D&--err... Warhammer Quest roleplaying games.
I still have a bunch of original Forgeworld resin Mk.II marine models that I bought back in 2010 for my 30K Iron Warriors. (Note that these sculpts were also used in the photographic artwork for the current 2.0 books.) If it weren't for the scenic bases I'm using, they'd be around *half* the height of that Imperial Fists Cataphractii Praetor.
I've been waiting so long for them to release Legion specific Iron Warriors praetors... now I'm not so sure I want to add them to my 7000+pts army. I can have them showing up my tyrants, iron circle and Perturabo. *very sad face*
The sheep on the 30k subreddit are eating these up... you'd think they would understand the problem this creates with 10+ years of kits which will not be compatible.
I think GW is slowly becoming a toy company and are slowly scaling upto action figures, its the only reason their models keep getting larger and larger
I'll admit: the idea of placing an Imperial Guard Solider next to a chap in Tartaros Termi Armour, and the scale looking accurate, it is indeed appealing on the surface. But when you start factoring in (the Elephant that is) the whole *_REPLACEMENT_* issue, it's not hard to discern (from past financial decisions) that GW isn't thinking in terms of Inches, CM & MM.........their thinking in terms of $ $igns _first & foremost. The scale for them in this instance is in all likelihood a secondary or even tertiary consideration next to that of their _Stock Holders & overall Profit Margins._ Unless they offered some kind of TRADE-IN Program in the near future, it's no hard to figure out where the motivation to make this move originated from.
I think Marines have been exhausted in their original size so GW had to scale them up in order to justify making new designs and new units rather than remakes.
it's because they are in old scale heroic scale and are missing about a head's worth of height from their torso + legs. The Deathwatch onwards models fixed this issue by giving them a realistic torso and extending the legs slightly. The Cadian original IG squad have the same problem - they are missing torsos etc (most of GW's models are the same though many of those models are no longer sold now). This use to be the old scale when miniatures were just wound markers, but for a while GW have tried to move to realistic proportions.
@@scepteredisle Also know as "rogue scale" for ig but i was always triggered by thé hand bigger than marine's one😁 ( my berserks are full goofie mug grabbing hand)
So they figured out a way to make you purchase a whole new army, make your terminators look itty bitty tiny in comparison with the new models. Planned obsolescence in a way.
I have two answers one being people like bigger and bigger things in general but mostly GW wants it as it in turn makes people buy more maybe to rebuy armies they already have.
Do we like bigger and bigger things? Is this not a miniature game? Are our concepts of the strengths and weaknesses of space marines as basic and undeveloped as bigger is better?
@@MrConna6 I never passed on comment on it being good, bad or anything. I gave my point of view as to why people like it but most importantly what GW would want money...
gw : "alright.. we've had um on the ropes for decades.. but how do we literally make them re-buy everything all over again?" that one guy : "uuhhh... what if space marines were 1 ft higher?" gw : "BRILLIANT"
The really sad bit is that it has come full circle. A year ago, anyone coming to a 30k group on FB asking whether he could just bring his 40k army to a game was mostly answered in the negative (often noting the exception that is would be okay to get to know the game and find out if he likes it, but not therafter). But now when you look at the discourse (if you can call it that) about the scale creep, and you say you dislike it, you get shouted down for 'being a toxic gatekeeper' and similar things, and people have stopped even daring to answer negatively. And this does by now extend to 'Can I use 40k marines'. GW have succeeded in selling 30k to the completely style-and-fluff-indifferent 40k crowd. We will see a lot of 30k primaris soon, trust me, and anyone speaking against it will be thrown out of groups on FB.
Thing I loved about Horus Heresy was consistency. It's starting to disappear. I will still play the game with my old marines, who are all standing on rocks, piles of rusted metal, tiled temple floors, etc. Guess adding stuff under them was a good long term idea, so that at least they won't look that ridiculous next to any new ones.
The company's complete rejection of the existing fanbase has lost me as a customer. I'm unfortunately in love with the IP, and the systems, and armies that I have built, but I'm not going to be part of a toxic relationship anymore. You can play the game without buying more shit, and that's the path that I'll have to take. Also, having a good re-caster helps.
To be honest, even if it isn't a popular opinion - I like the new scale and think the marines should have been taller from the start. I know it's gonna be a hard task replacing a lot of the kits. Correct me if I am wrong, but a lot of people complaining are the ones that wanted a scale change instead of the new Primaris. So yeah, just chill out.
Sorry if this is too much of a repeat of my community post, but I just do not see the monetary value of increasing the scale. Make people re-buy their armies? There's dozens of Legion specific characters and units, and dozens more generic units that they can't possibly replace ALL of them with new kits in a decent timeframe. I don't see anyone re-buying their army at the new scale if they can't replace everything with the new scale. So, like, why do it?
As someone who has to save up to buy what I want, because I have bills and rent to pay every month, I don't *BUY* the whole, "I'll just start a new army because these new models won't fit my current one", it's a sad flex and to me, it's basically saying, "Can't afford the new the kits or a new army, *yOu WiLl nOt bE mIsSeD* " from the GW bootlicks
Anyone with a doctorate in 40K lore: Astartes Power Armour only comes in one size, right? Whenever theres a Marine that falls on the far end of the bell curve, they custom-make their armour from scraps of Terminator plate and the such. Or is there such a thing as XXXL Power Armour?
WAIT ? At 0:25 It might have been addressed in another video but ... what is that god awful model ? It looks like a normal human with a power armour skin. The entire armour would have to be paper thin if he wanted to have any chance of ever fitting it's legs in there. As a result it looks more like a human shaped robot, because there is no bulk that we could associate with having an armour ON TOP of an already bulky marine. Do GW/FW failings even extend to making Astartes models now ? God help them, because I won't
I think if the marine in the right and left armor are suppose to be about some same size body's something is very wrong whit the right one, as if hes feed is suppose to be in the boost and but hes head is located way too high for the body to be in proportions, I think instead of trying to make him taller like this they should make the armor more broad or bulky.
Here is a simple, realistic answer: all new marine sculpts across GW and FW will be primaris scale. Rescaling gives GW a reason to sell you new kits and probably package elite and special units in boxes of 3 like eradicators and bladeguard going forward, so you have to buy more models.
@@TheOuterCircle true. I doubt they'll resize any old models tho. Most likely our fears will come true and they'll start all over like with primaries or maybe, if a shred Alan Bligh memory still remains, they'll faithfully redesign then instead of going Horus heresy age of sigmar, but who knows GW's mind is an enigma.
I "truescaled" a whole deathguard army, and while it was fun, it made me really appreciate smaller scales. Small marines don't look bad, and tanks look small enough as it is.
Ok so for a lot of people go to 12:00 as this is where Maccas crux of the issue lies. Everything else beforehand is semantics on width of armours and such semantics leaving out the fact that Marines are supposed to be 8ft giants and not to be the same size as a guardsman. Honestly? There are some valid points here and I think those should be discussed. The issue of White-Kinghts dumbing down peoples investment because GW gives the next week of plastic crack is very much worth discussing in wider detail as well as the issue of White Kinghts in general and their condesending, holier-than-thou attitude only promoting the other side of the coin of the elitism they wish to expunge is a conversation to make an entire video about. The fact that it's taken a decade to get to where we are with unit changes, then the sudden upscaling is a very valid point on an objective degree I can agree with but that;s mainly to do with how slow they release everything that isn't 40k/AoS. Literally they need to finish updating those ranges then leave them alone for a few years to focus on everything else (Like LOTR, Necromunda and now HH). I'll be hoenst here Macca and I'm very much going to sound cold and it's going to be ugly, but it's an honest truth: The new, rumoured to be the "third" big game HH, isn't going to be for players of an older collection. It's meant to draw in new blood with the upscaling meant to deter older gamers from playing and more new players to enter with new upscaled armies to keep the blood of the game flowing. I have a good feeling the new edition won't be 9th compatible but I have a feeling it may end up being further streamlined than it already is to, in GWs eyes, accomodate for the new blood who will end up just using them for 40k armies. The New HH Game/Minis is made for 40k players in mind. GW have a bad habit of passivly telling its fanbase "Thanks for the fish and curry, now fuck off" and the HH is no different. You spent a decade to get where you are now, and now GW passively orders you to either change to their demands or go away. They don't feel they owe a loyalty to you, nor your investment in the hobby. This, and I think we both know this for some time at least, has been GWs mantra since the early 2000's. Personally I don't mind the upscaling. I'm not going to tell you weather it's right or wrong, nor weather your prefrence is right or wrong but I prefer bigger Astartes. I enjoy building and painting bigger Astartes becuase I love the feeling and visuals that they look in proportion in external measures next to a guardsman, or a Skitarri and they look like the giants they are as told in the books. As for the game of HH, I think the game may fall flat but the minis will be a sucess. The game will fall flat because it will most likely piss off the core of the fanbase with the upscaled changes and the new fans may be uncaring on the nature of their rules, deciding they want more Great Crusade games than Age of Darkness which they won't get with HH, plus they need to make a simulatious hit with the upscaled marines. They will need to upscale the existing plastic kits like the MK4's and 3's, but I don't see that happening and won't see it for a good while because they will treat this game with releases as slow as LOTR because GW have it in their heads 40k and AoS is where the big money is at. I see the initial wave of new upscaled releases being a success because people will rejoece in truescale marines for 40k armies and you'll probably see a lot more firstborn marines in 40k armies, especially with the chop and change possibilities for CSM armies. The new scale changes I feel will attract 40k players for new kits but that's it. I don't play HH (mainly because I wished they used 5th as opposed to 7th as I will never like that edition entirely) but it will be a sad day if HH doesn't take off as GW projects it will as I know they treat Night Lords right over there as opposed to my 40k Night Lords.
100% right. I’m putting my hard earned cash which becomes thousands of dollars over 2 decades and your dam right I want my dudes to be correctly proportioned. I’ve put a lot of love into my armies through painting and customizing and you want your army looking the way it should.
of course they want to homogenize the ranges. there is so much selling potential. usually i am extremely unhappy with GW in general (still *VERY* salty about the fact that they killed my tomb kings), but in this case.. well, i like the upscaling. the bigger models have more space for details that are still actually "paint-able" and for me it just feels better. primaris size is the way to go. that said, i still can understand that people are unhappy with it.
Personally: For my HH Blood Angels and Iron Warriors that's bad. But my 40k Raven Guard will love the new scale. So I say, great change for 40k marines but bad for HH. So the usual.
2:52 just because YOU don't think it's easier to paint doesn't mean it's not easier to paint. I struggle with fine details and a larger model makes those fine details easier to paint. But you know, logic be damned, you're always right.
I suppose you're correct, but I've measured it, and many of the finer detail items are not larger, such as eye slits. It's the illusion of being easier, the placebo effect in painting form. If it works for you, then all I have to say to that is... that's fantastic! I hope you enjoy painting your miniatures and it comes together for you!
I play a lot of boardgames myself and it seems this is happening industry wide. The scale seems to go from 28mm to 32mm. I think this creep comes from the fact companies want to keep in line with the competition because a more casual customer might factor in the amount of plastic/resin (size of the model) they get when making a decision what system to buy in. I do appreciate the slightly bigger models because I can see the details of the models just a tad better when viewing them from a table top range, but I do understand the frustration when someone has an entire army and "can't" buy new models because it looks absurd when they stand next to each other.
My issue is, if they’re gonna increase the scale, then increase the scale of all the miniatures on their site. I’m sure they have warehouses full of old product that needs to sell, but this is just another reason I don’t wanna buy any of the new stuff. I don’t know why they didn’t increase the Terminator scale in the new box. You’ve got standard Marines taller than cataphracti. It looks ridiculous.
It’s about revenue, consumer engagement and IP evolution. It’s a tactic all sales dwindling long running IP’s suffer ( Star Wars, Transformer figures, Pokemon, etc ) companies can’t keep generating profit if they continue to create the same product, you need to release Limited Editions, etc GW are replacing the older & existing models with larger ones hoping players will “upgrade” which in turn will create a reinvigorated IP and revenue stream. It sucks for G1 fans but in order for a brand / company to survive it’s just a natural evolution of an IP.
what happens if i prefer the old marines and the old school tanks of the 90s. Make warhammer small again I agree that bigger models are not easier to paint. Maybe the smaller details are 'easier' to paint, but now it is much more obvious that you havent highlighted those small details.
I ce been building a legion wars sons of horus army and I use the new CSM kits for a elite squads that have been blessed by chaos while my standard troops are in mixed mk iv v and iii. This is fair use of scale IMO since chaos can make you taller. I would still not want taller mk iv at all.
One explanation is that scale isn't a thing; they have made the heroes larger to stand out on the table. Although that doesn't stack up with the leaked Mk6 photos...
@@MrConna6 not saying I agree with it, but it would explain the changes. More likely it's a rescale of everything to sell more minis for increased profits. It's a shame; FW felt like the last holdout of what the old guard liked about the 30/40k universe. A small part of the company that was allowed to continue on their own path as long as they were profitable. I think we are seeing the end of that.
@@Gorketh spot on mate I feel the same, such a shame as ive just been getting into heresy the last year or two, suppose i at least, as a scars player get a nice mkii praetor even if ill never seen more
About the scale change to chaos- i've bought a force of CSM for 40k about a year ago, starter and boxes of CSM and Raptors. In comparison, the Raptor kit which is the latest sculpt of Chaos before this new wave fits right in the new CSM scale. They kind of bulked up the scale of footmarines which doesn't stack up too much against raptors as they have the big Jump Pack and those funny rocks which they stand on, so it all fits in nicely and you don't notice the change. The CSM update just bulked them up a bit, but didn't oversize them. This change on the other hand is more like the difference between Primaris and Smolmarines. As if they want to fit 30k kits within a primaris force (skeptical hmmm noises)
Waiting for all the golden daemon/silver brush level paintjobs on these sculpts and collections now that the scale has increased. Oh wait, butterfinger henry still sucks at painting.
It's been my grip for years. And dose this mean that all the other factions are going to be the same at some point or are marines going to be giants compared to every thing else.
I like the size of the current/old heresy models, but I've never liked the oversized heads, thigh gaps, and skinny legs (admittedly that worse on the plastic kits than the FW stuff). So much so I've considered printing smaller heads for current models, just to fudge a more accurate scale look. I'd be happy with same size but with more modern proportions.
If you play for fun then size really doesn’t matter i still have a ton of old metal terminators. The problem is tournament’s. Looking at old models now this was 7th edition but i was told that i would need to buy all new bases for some of my old models to make them legal. Im just waiting for all the new eldar models where someone says in a tournament you can use any of those scorpions or even banshee until you switch out the bases. This is probably why their is still a large group in my area that plays 7th
I'm really wondering if the Terminator was printed too big and used to make the master mold, and FW either didn't care or didn't notice until it was too late and just carried on with it. Especially since the Artificer Armoured Praetor seems to be in line with the previous releases of Preators (take away the silly rocks and he wouldn't look too out of place, at least much less than the Terminator).
Whilst this shouldn't have much impact on my true-scaled chaps, I do sympathise with people who already have many thousands of dollaridos on their Legions.
I think the thing with scale was that it was tied to 2nd Edition era sizes for a long time and I think GW were initially wary of increasing it. I wouldn't take as much issue with GW saying "We'd like to release true-scale Marines, what do you think?" Instead they release a whole new range of Marine Marines (just like in that Flashgitz parody video) and Deus ex Machina it into the lore with Cawl. I don't mind the minis, I think the Primaris in particular are too 'future' looking and I'd like them a lot more if they were fully modular, but it seems GW doesn't want to give a market to 3rd party companies so we suffer with mono-pose sculpts that are more difficult to personalise. Now it seems they want to sell Heresy minis to 40k players so the scale is more in line with Primaris Marines. It has to be a deliberate choice, right? It's frustrating and unnecessary imho.
Basically the only way I can use these models is to make a seperate force thats entirely new scale HH. So at the moment I have 4 types of armies on display in the future. Firstborn, Primaris, HH and new scale HH. That's insane lol.
That's how GW got more money out of you, they literally doubled the number of armies they can sell you by just upping the size of the minis. I hate that too lol
Or ANY of the MKII units, by the time I was able to afford GW/FW comfortably those mother fuckers were years gone. Those mkii assault marines are my favorite unit, I’m incredibly reluctant to get recasts of them. Very curious to see what they’re moving to plastic
I know that you shouldn't jump to attribute to malice what can otherwise be attributed to incompetence, but perhaps this scale change is the reason that so many Horus heresy forge world kits have disappeared from sale over the last few years? The evaporation of the product range does seem to have kicked off after the release of the Primaris marines, perhaps this scale change has been a long time coming, but forgeworld has been reticent to tell anyone about it, just as GW is reticent to tell anyone about upcoming releases more than a month before they happen. Hence they have sought to sell off all the old scale kits and not restock them, before introducing a range of new scale models?
Totally agree, and I'm a Filthy Xenos. Love the New Jain Zar model, but 40mm base, yet Eldrad is still on a 25mm? Like What? Then the new Visarch is on 32mm, but other Eldar characters (and dark eldar as well) are getting these weird base sizes, 28.5mm for the new Howling banshees. So are all aspects supposed to be on 28.5mm? GW's answer "Well Yes, But No" just makes it worse.
I agree with you 100%! This is just a scam to make everyone buy new armies basicly (like we dont already spend all our money on gw). I love the way the old marines look on the table and still want that style and this is serious deterent for me starting new armies. It would have been nice to keep the standard size for horus heresy to keep the classic style alive now when primaris are taking over 40k.
Another reason why the modern printers of tomorrow will make a difference is that customers might make their own decision of scale after purchase. Assuming the freedom is there and the company cowed enough to realize it should work for and with its customers instead of against them...however, we don't the official route for such a persuit regardless.
The bigger size will sell a lot of new kits, because the size difference looks bad next to kits we already have. So basically they will try sell us stuff we already have. And I think it works too good for GW. Its a simple plan but effective
My late 90's berserk on 32mm "sector" base and somes tricks at the belt stand at one forehead or less under a primaris flat based ....i'll be fine thank you
The scale change started with the Deathwatch models, then the Space Marine heroes - if you look at those models what's really happening is these models have realistic proportions rather than "being upscaled" - all pre-Deathwatch space marines are missing 1/3rd of their body height and bits of their legs, it's actually a massive problem (yes, even if you remove the heroic scale head with a realistic smaller head, the scale is still awful). The Chaos Marines have a good upscale too i.e. realistic torsos. All you need to do is look at "how to draw a human" and see that the old marines are missing about a HEAD's worth of height - it's a bad issue but a throwback to the older heroic scale where models were wound markers and designed to be seen "from above". I know it's annoying but at the end of the day all space marine prior to the Deathwatch are proportionally stupid / old school heroic scale. Can't say what is the right direction to go for but personally I try to upscale all my old models, give them a bit of extra height and add to the legs/torso.
The head-body ratio is for an unarmoured person. They head is the issue, not the body, as a I pointed out un the video, these models should look kinda squad thanks to the slabs of thick armour they are wearing that add vastly to width, 4 times more than height. The new proportions are those of an unarmoured human and look bizarre and kinda gangly for it.
All the talk of more details is bullshit. New csm have the same amount of detail if not less than the Chosen from Dark Vengeance. Shit, even the Raptors/Warp Talons have the same amount of detail and both them and the Chosen are normal scale. Now why should normal marines be more detailed? Standard cookie cutter marines do not need the same amount of detail as a captain. Sternguard and Vanguard Veterans have lots of detail on them and they are normal scale, not to mention Vanguard Veterans aren't squatting. But you know I think less is more and you can think every tactical marine needs a cloak, tabard, one leg full of purity seals and the other one covered with skulls & aquilas. Also rhinos & land raiders look small now but when marines are a head taller...
I've been harping on putting all the models into a better scale with one another for almost ten years now. I want my imperial guard to look smaller next to the space marines, so I wholeheartedly welcome the change. That terminator on the right is how I imagined the entire plastic heresy range being done when I heard it was moving to plastic. Baroque, embracing grim dark by the balls, and chonkily in scale. I wish the basic space marines were the size of the Stormcast Annihilators, beefy and intimating like they are in the lore. I understand to get that change it requires temporary sacrifice for long term gain. I'll take it. The bad thing is that being disappointed in the decision is why we now have primaris lore. The original primaris line was designed simply as a scaled up replacement for the space marine line, but in the 11th hour it was changed to an entirely new line, partially because it was thought people would complain about the scale change, so now, here we are knee deep, arguably, in the worst lore decision made in any fictional universe. I would welcome the hobby opportunity to "upscale" my entire army, i'm probably a better painter now and that type of change gives me an excuse to buy new models. There's no easy way to please everyone so fast. I get that these things take time. Out of all the bad decisions GW has made, I sincerely don't believe this is one of them. We know they have Mark 6 and mark 2 plastic cut already. I would imagine the mark 3 and 4 armor will get recut within the next five years along with catapharctii and tartaros terminators. We also know that the spartan and sicaran tank are moving to plastic too. We can deduce the rhino and most other "widespread" vehicles will get done in plastic. I imagine those will be in scale with the new line. so it will literally be mark 3, 4, and the two sets of terminators out of scale for a short bit (honestly, if I were GW, I would have just recut them anyway to prevent any scale issues). But, this is why they are starting with the Siege of Terra. Later marks allow them to cut new sprues, work on other stuff, then go backwards and get those older sprues recut for early Horus heresy. We can assume the great crusade will be the next expansion based on the mark IIs having been completed already. Everything else will be done at this new scale and I imagine it will get done in plastic relatively quickly since this is being regarded as a fresh start for the entire Horus heresy line.
As I noted in the video, the end of the day issue isn't that scale change is happening, it's that we have taken 10 years to get to where we are in the game and are still missing a lot of content. Now, all of that content is on a different scale related to the new stuff, including some very expensive characters and Primarchs. The scale change here, unlike, say Chaos Space Marines in 40k, isn't a matter of changing 4 or 5 units and you're done. You have to update at least 36 legion specific elite units, every vehicle, special characters etc.
Doing all of that, and doing so in a reasonable time frame is highly dubious, meaning that people will likely have a weird mish-mash of units in armies for several years where the height varies from unit to unit by 15-20% and vehicles look absurdly small next to new units. It doesn't make the choice of scale or the models themselves inherently bad, what it does mean is that a community that prides itself more on the hobbying side of things than the gaming side of things is being put into a crappy situation. Defend it however you like, but it's an absurd move, hence the video.
The reason they are making them so big is Gw didn't by the best printers for their cad jobs, they have a minimum size they can print for good detail, its why primaris are so big.
@@lolzyking656 that...makes too much sense. As I said in the community post and my own reply, I don't see the financial benefit in increasing the size, especially if they're going to be forced to sell existing stock that's at the older scale.
But if they can't physically print at the older scale, then that could explain why they'd go for it anyways.
@@Traven158 I personally believe the larger scale models simply sell better.
Im not a fan of this opinion, but I think it's true. And I think it means all of our complaints will fall upon deaf ears.
Only alpha legion win this scale in lore
@@Traven158 they could probably get printers in todays market capable of the old scale, but as you can see going back, they adopted printing quite early, the Cerastus. the warlord, warbringer ect were designed in programs.
Preach on bro! The example shared on acceptance within the fandom really resonates with me. And, you're totally right, its a *huge* hurdle and its baffling how quickly those individuals will roll over to defend what they like. Let us all remember: It is good for us, the customers of this premium hobby, to be critical.
Go and have a look in my community tab posts at how big it is next to the Alpha Legion Praetor....
@@TheOuterCircle Such a bummer. I didn't know the Alpha Legion were the smol legion.
OR, a person can not let the scale bother them and continue to enjoy the models we all bought all those years ago. Nevermind, I'm an idiot.
My bet: Someone who worked on the Inquisitor game is still really salty it never took off and is slowly increasing the size of the models until the entire 40k range is 54mm.
Agree, eventually we will be using Action Figure size models !!!
@@malcolmhaldin717 How big would the boards have to be? :D
@@comradedyatlov199 do you own a garage?
Simon Egan. If you know anything about him and why he joined Forge World. Aside from being a brilliant designer, it is why he was selected to work on the Primarchs. He prefers the larger scale.
@@malcolmhaldin717 make sure you buy 10 of those Bandai captain figures for your army.
There's one way this makes sense... All the new Tall Marines are Alpha Legion infiltrators!
Great idea alpharious.
I use Primaris as Alpha Legion Gal Vorbak. They're really the only legion it makes sense for.
@@mrspeigel3593 how do AL Gal Vorbak make sense?
@@marcwittkowski5146 super soldiers instead of possed guys, the Alpha Legion clearly modify the size and abilities of their marines theyve got guys that range in size from large human to small primarch. Not to mention the hint that they made a lot of their guys using the Alpha stage protocols so they are some where between a normal marine and a custode
Every army is an alpha legion army.
Blue marine = alpha
Yellow marines = alpha
Green marines = alpha
Purple Gribblies = alpha
Honestly that guy saying "accept the change" almost gave me a brain haemorrhage, like dude, if you buy a whole new fucking army of course it's gonna be inevitable, your the problem mate, what you said just proved it, maybe if you didn't throw all your monthly earning's that GW then we wouldn't have to worry about our 1000's of hours worth of investment and work go down the drain.
Like, how can someone be so lax with re-buying an army you ALREADY had yet also get mad at people wanting consistency among what they buy? Is the community just getting dumber as time goes on? "Oh well, fuck it, guess i'm gonna have to spend another £2000 to play marines again, thanks GW, loving the new sculpts, hope we get a new Calgar model soon, the old one is SOoooooooo 2018..."
Sorry that was a pretty angry rant but i swear people like that guy make me really struggle with this hobby.
if I could like your comment twice I would. 100% on point
Spot on mate
The three pillars of being in the community: consumption, status, and complacency
But how else will he consoooooooom?
He probably paid someone to paint his army so he doesn't care.
Accept change= just shut up and consume
There isn't even half a smidge of excuse for GW anymore. Everything they do is just embarrassing at this point.
It's amazing to me how miniatures from a few different historical companies in 28mm can mix with little problem, even if the sculpts are different, but GW can't maintain consistency in its own products. Guess they have to sucker people into rebuking Horus Heresy armies somehow.
I still use my old lead 25mm marines.
Scale creep is solely to justify ever increasing prices.
Glad you said all this. Getting boring hearing the terrible excuse people make for GW. The DA term kits only came out just over a year ago. What are people doing with the Hersey armies now this is happening? I’ve held off buying anything FW since announcement
What I never got was when they harp on about scale, but increase nothing else to match said scale as well like tanks, dreadnought or bikes. Tanks are small against things as it is with the heroic scale. Imagine one of these next to your rhinos. Ridiculous
Vehicles are being redone too.
What rustles my jimmies is that they could clearly have just increased the scale of Firstborns instead of spawning a new, whether you like Primaris or not, bloated line of models. This is now going to be the third line of models where the scale has just been changed in recent years with Chaos (though not very wide spread) and Orkz.
While I like the taller marines, I agree with Macca on that they don´t fit into the Horus Heresy. Everything was perfectly scaled to each other and introducing these larger marine really throw everything of. And considering that I just finished a bertayal at calth box, and being faced with painting up an entire new army bugs me I can only imagine how much it annoys horus heresy veterans. And finally, I am also painting up a pair of models made from the new CSM and the lore for them is that they are unusually large, like Alexis Polux, but that is going to get screwed with the new scale.
Sell everything, save your cash for the new releases, paint them again, become better painter. You have to look at the net positives. Everything will get redone in time too.
Really, there's only one problem with bigger models; and that is fitting less of them on the table. Suddenly, it all becomes a smaller skirmish game, entirely character based, rather than fielding a full army. Suddenly, all the tanks and vehicles become useless on the smaller table, with a smaller battlefield, and increasingly larger models. Look at the different scales for the titans, with the Adeptus Titanicus game. As someone who knows nothing about it, just looking in from the outside they simply look like space marine sized robots, as teeny tiny tanks and infantry divisions must be made redundant by the comparatively "giant" robots that can stomp skyscrapers flat. Playing the same game with the larger scaled titans might be super cool, but that scale makes them prohibitively expensive for a lot of people who, regardless, have still spent a lot of money on the deceptively cheaper infantry and tanks of this luxury hobby, as that encompasses a much larger part of the franchise's appeal. The way I see it, the Primaris themselves, currently with lesser variety and details, could easily end up being phased out by a whole newer range, never mind the firstborn marines. Firstborn have been short and stumpy since forever, and that's not a complaint from me. But the Primaris are closer to the Stormcast, which have recently seen a sudden change towards different proportions and detail, making the older ones look short and stumpy... despite them still being much newer than most of the firstborn space marine range. Perhaps the new range will be the REAL "firstborn", beginning with a reboot of the entire Horus Heresy miniature line, and "40k" itself, presumably with "tenth" edition, sees the same end as Warhammer, with the Old World replaced by the Realms in Age of Sigmar. Except this time, it'll just be a "break" from the 41st millenium as GW drags us back in time to relive the glory days of the Heresy, from start to present. Unless of course they already did that during the long years I was away from the hobby... I've got to say, though, I am interested to know what they have planned for tenth edition... you know, with the roman numeral X. It's a one-time-only opportunity to do something fun with that. But maybe I'm getting a little ahead of things. Frankly, I'm surprised we haven't seen a new edition of Rogue Trader with every edition of 40k, considering how obsessed they are with releasing tons of rulebooks. What's one more? Then a bestiary, like D&D... and various other expansions. I guess Warhammer Quest is essentially that already, except it's a whole boxed standalone game with it's own set of minis, rather than encouraging people to buy ALL the rest of GW's minis to use in their own custom D&--err... Warhammer Quest roleplaying games.
I still have a bunch of original Forgeworld resin Mk.II marine models that I bought back in 2010 for my 30K Iron Warriors. (Note that these sculpts were also used in the photographic artwork for the current 2.0 books.) If it weren't for the scenic bases I'm using, they'd be around *half* the height of that Imperial Fists Cataphractii Praetor.
I love how GW fans have become paypiggies for man-thots in fancy suits.
I've been waiting so long for them to release Legion specific Iron Warriors praetors... now I'm not so sure I want to add them to my 7000+pts army.
I can have them showing up my tyrants, iron circle and Perturabo.
*very sad face*
Same for me.
Guess Ill just have to convert up my own bad ass model, using chinacast parts of course.
still waiting for an Iron Warrior Levithan dread
The sheep on the 30k subreddit are eating these up... you'd think they would understand the problem this creates with 10+ years of kits which will not be compatible.
Is it any surprise? It's R*ddit, they'll shill anything.
@@emile1365 anything except personal responsibility and capitalism
I think GW is slowly becoming a toy company and are slowly scaling upto action figures, its the only reason their models keep getting larger and larger
I'll admit: the idea of placing an Imperial Guard Solider next to a chap in Tartaros Termi Armour, and the scale looking accurate, it is indeed appealing on the surface. But when you start factoring in (the Elephant that is) the whole *_REPLACEMENT_* issue, it's not hard to discern (from past financial decisions) that GW isn't thinking in terms of Inches, CM & MM.........their thinking in terms of $ $igns _first & foremost. The scale for them in this instance is in all likelihood a secondary or even tertiary consideration next to that of their _Stock Holders & overall Profit Margins._
Unless they offered some kind of TRADE-IN Program in the near future, it's no hard to figure out where the motivation to make this move originated from.
I think Marines have been exhausted in their original size so GW had to scale them up in order to justify making new designs and new units rather than remakes.
it's because they are in old scale heroic scale and are missing about a head's worth of height from their torso + legs. The Deathwatch onwards models fixed this issue by giving them a realistic torso and extending the legs slightly. The Cadian original IG squad have the same problem - they are missing torsos etc (most of GW's models are the same though many of those models are no longer sold now). This use to be the old scale when miniatures were just wound markers, but for a while GW have tried to move to realistic proportions.
Yeah say that to the list of discontinued units and models... do people in this fanbase actually think about their point?
@@scepteredisle Also know as "rogue scale" for ig but i was always triggered by thé hand bigger than marine's one😁 ( my berserks are full goofie mug grabbing hand)
@@scepteredisle it could be worse. GW Orks have midget legs
So they figured out a way to make you purchase a whole new army, make your terminators look itty bitty tiny in comparison with the new models. Planned obsolescence in a way.
I have two answers one being people like bigger and bigger things in general but mostly GW wants it as it in turn makes people buy more maybe to rebuy armies they already have.
That's why I switched from Space Wolves to Emperor's Children. I would have to rebuy my army
@@janczaplinski658 Remember they have to milk even the blood out of ya ha
@@yagsipcc287 it's good I'm a Firstborn Marines fanboy
Do we like bigger and bigger things? Is this not a miniature game? Are our concepts of the strengths and weaknesses of space marines as basic and undeveloped as bigger is better?
@@MrConna6 I never passed on comment on it being good, bad or anything. I gave my point of view as to why people like it but most importantly what GW would want money...
gw : "alright.. we've had um on the ropes for decades.. but how do we literally make them re-buy everything all over again?"
that one guy : "uuhhh... what if space marines were 1 ft higher?"
gw : "BRILLIANT"
Maybe these models are for tyberos and you're supposed to convert them to carcharodons?
Little does he know, scale creep started with Alexis Pollux.
(this is just a joke, I know that Pollux was a massive marine)
Its to make the old figures less desirable, and kill off the second hand market, and "force" you to uppgrade.
The really sad bit is that it has come full circle. A year ago, anyone coming to a 30k group on FB asking whether he could just bring his 40k army to a game was mostly answered in the negative (often noting the exception that is would be okay to get to know the game and find out if he likes it, but not therafter).
But now when you look at the discourse (if you can call it that) about the scale creep, and you say you dislike it, you get shouted down for 'being a toxic gatekeeper' and similar things, and people have stopped even daring to answer negatively. And this does by now extend to 'Can I use 40k marines'.
GW have succeeded in selling 30k to the completely style-and-fluff-indifferent 40k crowd. We will see a lot of 30k primaris soon, trust me, and anyone speaking against it will be thrown out of groups on FB.
Thing I loved about Horus Heresy was consistency. It's starting to disappear. I will still play the game with my old marines, who are all standing on rocks, piles of rusted metal, tiled temple floors, etc. Guess adding stuff under them was a good long term idea, so that at least they won't look that ridiculous next to any new ones.
The company's complete rejection of the existing fanbase has lost me as a customer. I'm unfortunately in love with the IP, and the systems, and armies that I have built, but I'm not going to be part of a toxic relationship anymore. You can play the game without buying more shit, and that's the path that I'll have to take. Also, having a good re-caster helps.
To be honest, even if it isn't a popular opinion - I like the new scale and think the marines should have been taller from the start. I know it's gonna be a hard task replacing a lot of the kits.
Correct me if I am wrong, but a lot of people complaining are the ones that wanted a scale change instead of the new Primaris. So yeah, just chill out.
This is GW's equivalent to Apples charging cable changes
Sorry if this is too much of a repeat of my community post, but I just do not see the monetary value of increasing the scale.
Make people re-buy their armies? There's dozens of Legion specific characters and units, and dozens more generic units that they can't possibly replace ALL of them with new kits in a decent timeframe. I don't see anyone re-buying their army at the new scale if they can't replace everything with the new scale.
So, like, why do it?
As someone who has to save up to buy what I want, because I have bills and rent to pay every month, I don't *BUY* the whole, "I'll just start a new army because these new models won't fit my current one", it's a sad flex and to me, it's basically saying, "Can't afford the new the kits or a new army, *yOu WiLl nOt bE mIsSeD* " from the GW bootlicks
Anyone with a doctorate in 40K lore: Astartes Power Armour only comes in one size, right? Whenever theres a Marine that falls on the far end of the bell curve, they custom-make their armour from scraps of Terminator plate and the such. Or is there such a thing as XXXL Power Armour?
I wonder if the new size has to do with the HH plastic boxes coming out
May you please make a updated version of "What Broke the Fans: Tyranids" ?
You should have used ferrus for the head comparison
The scale change makes sense. Now they can remake everything for another 10 years and sell it to you again!
WAIT ? At 0:25 It might have been addressed in another video but ... what is that god awful model ? It looks like a normal human with a power armour skin. The entire armour would have to be paper thin if he wanted to have any chance of ever fitting it's legs in there. As a result it looks more like a human shaped robot, because there is no bulk that we could associate with having an armour ON TOP of an already bulky marine.
Do GW/FW failings even extend to making Astartes models now ? God help them, because I won't
I think if the marine in the right and left armor are suppose to be about some same size body's something is very wrong whit the right one, as if hes feed is suppose to be in the boost and but hes head is located way too high for the body to be in proportions, I think instead of trying to make him taller like this they should make the armor more broad or bulky.
Here is a simple, realistic answer: all new marine sculpts across GW and FW will be primaris scale. Rescaling gives GW a reason to sell you new kits and probably package elite and special units in boxes of 3 like eradicators and bladeguard going forward, so you have to buy more models.
Maybe this'll be the new size for Marines and terminators the praetor is about the same height as those corvus Marines we saw a months ago.
Almost certainly, but that's a problem with all the existing kits that will need to be redone because of it...
@@TheOuterCircle true. I doubt they'll resize any old models tho. Most likely our fears will come true and they'll start all over like with primaries or maybe, if a shred Alan Bligh memory still remains, they'll faithfully redesign then instead of going Horus heresy age of sigmar, but who knows GW's mind is an enigma.
Thank you for doing this vid so that I know the scale and not to buy anything more from FW
Straight up, should I just sell my Betrayal at Calth box? Before I even bother opening it?
I "truescaled" a whole deathguard army, and while it was fun, it made me really appreciate smaller scales. Small marines don't look bad, and tanks look small enough as it is.
Ok so for a lot of people go to 12:00 as this is where Maccas crux of the issue lies. Everything else beforehand is semantics on width of armours and such semantics leaving out the fact that Marines are supposed to be 8ft giants and not to be the same size as a guardsman.
Honestly? There are some valid points here and I think those should be discussed. The issue of White-Kinghts dumbing down peoples investment because GW gives the next week of plastic crack is very much worth discussing in wider detail as well as the issue of White Kinghts in general and their condesending, holier-than-thou attitude only promoting the other side of the coin of the elitism they wish to expunge is a conversation to make an entire video about.
The fact that it's taken a decade to get to where we are with unit changes, then the sudden upscaling is a very valid point on an objective degree I can agree with but that;s mainly to do with how slow they release everything that isn't 40k/AoS. Literally they need to finish updating those ranges then leave them alone for a few years to focus on everything else (Like LOTR, Necromunda and now HH).
I'll be hoenst here Macca and I'm very much going to sound cold and it's going to be ugly, but it's an honest truth:
The new, rumoured to be the "third" big game HH, isn't going to be for players of an older collection. It's meant to draw in new blood with the upscaling meant to deter older gamers from playing and more new players to enter with new upscaled armies to keep the blood of the game flowing. I have a good feeling the new edition won't be 9th compatible but I have a feeling it may end up being further streamlined than it already is to, in GWs eyes, accomodate for the new blood who will end up just using them for 40k armies.
The New HH Game/Minis is made for 40k players in mind.
GW have a bad habit of passivly telling its fanbase "Thanks for the fish and curry, now fuck off" and the HH is no different. You spent a decade to get where you are now, and now GW passively orders you to either change to their demands or go away. They don't feel they owe a loyalty to you, nor your investment in the hobby. This, and I think we both know this for some time at least, has been GWs mantra since the early 2000's.
Personally I don't mind the upscaling. I'm not going to tell you weather it's right or wrong, nor weather your prefrence is right or wrong but I prefer bigger Astartes. I enjoy building and painting bigger Astartes becuase I love the feeling and visuals that they look in proportion in external measures next to a guardsman, or a Skitarri and they look like the giants they are as told in the books.
As for the game of HH, I think the game may fall flat but the minis will be a sucess. The game will fall flat because it will most likely piss off the core of the fanbase with the upscaled changes and the new fans may be uncaring on the nature of their rules, deciding they want more Great Crusade games than Age of Darkness which they won't get with HH, plus they need to make a simulatious hit with the upscaled marines. They will need to upscale the existing plastic kits like the MK4's and 3's, but I don't see that happening and won't see it for a good while because they will treat this game with releases as slow as LOTR because GW have it in their heads 40k and AoS is where the big money is at.
I see the initial wave of new upscaled releases being a success because people will rejoece in truescale marines for 40k armies and you'll probably see a lot more firstborn marines in 40k armies, especially with the chop and change possibilities for CSM armies. The new scale changes I feel will attract 40k players for new kits but that's it. I don't play HH (mainly because I wished they used 5th as opposed to 7th as I will never like that edition entirely) but it will be a sad day if HH doesn't take off as GW projects it will as I know they treat Night Lords right over there as opposed to my 40k Night Lords.
I hate scale changes because of this exact situation. Wanna make a new scale? Do it after you got the full offers out. Fucking absurd.
100% right. I’m putting my hard earned cash which becomes thousands of dollars over 2 decades and your dam right I want my dudes to be correctly proportioned. I’ve put a lot of love into my armies through painting and customizing and you want your army looking the way it should.
Awesome, these are the Perfect size to match my Tortuga bay MKII army I'm doing! 🤣
GW once again modelling for advantage...
Glad I got into the Dropzone Commander and a handful of specialist games.
Easier to 3d print? Or just sales tactics?
Is this scale creep meant to appeal to the Primaris crowd? Get them into 30K as well and sell them another marine army.
of course they want to homogenize the ranges. there is so much selling potential. usually i am extremely unhappy with GW in general (still *VERY* salty about the fact that they killed my tomb kings), but in this case.. well, i like the upscaling. the bigger models have more space for details that are still actually "paint-able" and for me it just feels better. primaris size is the way to go. that said, i still can understand that people are unhappy with it.
I have a few giants in my army as I brought in a ton of my 2nd edition Dark Angels to the HH. The new models are a great deal of larger models.
I’d love to hear ur take on: with certain marine units going to legends would u like them to appear in 30k eg Scouts
Personally: For my HH Blood Angels and Iron Warriors that's bad. But my 40k Raven Guard will love the new scale.
So I say, great change for 40k marines but bad for HH. So the usual.
I wonder how the new praetor compares to a gravis marine or a 40k blightlord or scarab occult. It looks bigger than that.
2:52 just because YOU don't think it's easier to paint doesn't mean it's not easier to paint. I struggle with fine details and a larger model makes those fine details easier to paint. But you know, logic be damned, you're always right.
I suppose you're correct, but I've measured it, and many of the finer detail items are not larger, such as eye slits. It's the illusion of being easier, the placebo effect in painting form. If it works for you, then all I have to say to that is... that's fantastic! I hope you enjoy painting your miniatures and it comes together for you!
I play a lot of boardgames myself and it seems this is happening industry wide. The scale seems to go from 28mm to 32mm.
I think this creep comes from the fact companies want to keep in line with the competition because a more casual customer might factor in the amount of plastic/resin (size of the model) they get when making a decision what system to buy in.
I do appreciate the slightly bigger models because I can see the details of the models just a tad better when viewing them from a table top range, but I do understand the frustration when someone has an entire army and "can't" buy new models because it looks absurd when they stand next to each other.
My issue is, if they’re gonna increase the scale, then increase the scale of all the miniatures on their site. I’m sure they have warehouses full of old product that needs to sell, but this is just another reason I don’t wanna buy any of the new stuff. I don’t know why they didn’t increase the Terminator scale in the new box. You’ve got standard Marines taller than cataphracti. It looks ridiculous.
It’s about revenue, consumer engagement and IP evolution. It’s a tactic all sales dwindling long running IP’s suffer ( Star Wars, Transformer figures, Pokemon, etc ) companies can’t keep generating profit if they continue to create the same product, you need to release Limited Editions, etc GW are replacing the older & existing models with larger ones hoping players will “upgrade” which in turn will create a reinvigorated IP and revenue stream.
It sucks for G1 fans but in order for a brand / company to survive it’s just a natural evolution of an IP.
It’s just another GW shill, doing damage control!
what happens if i prefer the old marines and the old school tanks of the 90s.
Make warhammer small again
I agree that bigger models are not easier to paint. Maybe the smaller details are 'easier' to paint, but now it is much more obvious that you havent highlighted those small details.
I ce been building a legion wars sons of horus army and I use the new CSM kits for a elite squads that have been blessed by chaos while my standard troops are in mixed mk iv v and iii. This is fair use of scale IMO since chaos can make you taller. I would still not want taller mk iv at all.
One explanation is that scale isn't a thing; they have made the heroes larger to stand out on the table.
Although that doesn't stack up with the leaked Mk6 photos...
This would be like heroic scale to the extreme, its silly and childish and is against the long accepted historical style of horus heresy
@@MrConna6 not saying I agree with it, but it would explain the changes.
More likely it's a rescale of everything to sell more minis for increased profits.
It's a shame; FW felt like the last holdout of what the old guard liked about the 30/40k universe. A small part of the company that was allowed to continue on their own path as long as they were profitable. I think we are seeing the end of that.
@@Gorketh spot on mate I feel the same, such a shame as ive just been getting into heresy the last year or two, suppose i at least, as a scars player get a nice mkii praetor even if ill never seen more
About the scale change to chaos- i've bought a force of CSM for 40k about a year ago, starter and boxes of CSM and Raptors. In comparison, the Raptor kit which is the latest sculpt of Chaos before this new wave fits right in the new CSM scale. They kind of bulked up the scale of footmarines which doesn't stack up too much against raptors as they have the big Jump Pack and those funny rocks which they stand on, so it all fits in nicely and you don't notice the change. The CSM update just bulked them up a bit, but didn't oversize them. This change on the other hand is more like the difference between Primaris and Smolmarines. As if they want to fit 30k kits within a primaris force (skeptical hmmm noises)
Waiting for all the golden daemon/silver brush level paintjobs on these sculpts and collections now that the scale has increased. Oh wait, butterfinger henry still sucks at painting.
Honestly, I'm just happy to pick up some scuplts for my warhammer 40k Iron Warriors Legions for some character kitbashes
I actually wish that all they had done was some scaling, versus Primaris..
It's been my grip for years. And dose this mean that all the other factions are going to be the same at some point or are marines going to be giants compared to every thing else.
I like the size of the current/old heresy models, but I've never liked the oversized heads, thigh gaps, and skinny legs (admittedly that worse on the plastic kits than the FW stuff). So much so I've considered printing smaller heads for current models, just to fudge a more accurate scale look. I'd be happy with same size but with more modern proportions.
If you play for fun then size really doesn’t matter i still have a ton of old metal terminators. The problem is tournament’s. Looking at old models now this was 7th edition but i was told that i would need to buy all new bases for some of my old models to make them legal. Im just waiting for all the new eldar models where someone says in a tournament you can use any of those scorpions or even banshee until you switch out the bases. This is probably why their is still a large group in my area that plays 7th
I'm really wondering if the Terminator was printed too big and used to make the master mold, and FW either didn't care or didn't notice until it was too late and just carried on with it. Especially since the Artificer Armoured Praetor seems to be in line with the previous releases of Preators (take away the silly rocks and he wouldn't look too out of place, at least much less than the Terminator).
The scale change of the heresy miniatures has one positive: you can use them in 40k alongside primaris as tactical squads without it looking comical.
I’d never seen the praetor size comparison before; that terminator is like a primarch. Ridiculous.
Whilst this shouldn't have much impact on my true-scaled chaps, I do sympathise with people who already have many thousands of dollaridos on their Legions.
I think the thing with scale was that it was tied to 2nd Edition era sizes for a long time and I think GW were initially wary of increasing it. I wouldn't take as much issue with GW saying "We'd like to release true-scale Marines, what do you think?" Instead they release a whole new range of Marine Marines (just like in that Flashgitz parody video) and Deus ex Machina it into the lore with Cawl. I don't mind the minis, I think the Primaris in particular are too 'future' looking and I'd like them a lot more if they were fully modular, but it seems GW doesn't want to give a market to 3rd party companies so we suffer with mono-pose sculpts that are more difficult to personalise. Now it seems they want to sell Heresy minis to 40k players so the scale is more in line with Primaris Marines. It has to be a deliberate choice, right? It's frustrating and unnecessary imho.
Basically the only way I can use these models is to make a seperate force thats entirely new scale HH. So at the moment I have 4 types of armies on display in the future. Firstborn, Primaris, HH and new scale HH. That's insane lol.
That's how GW got more money out of you, they literally doubled the number of armies they can sell you by just upping the size of the minis. I hate that too lol
Thanks for this video. I was going to get the Imperial Fists termie but now that I’ve seen it in scale I’m not going to get it
I just bought a box of mk iv and mkiii, and i plan on basing them on rocks to somewhat future proof them....doesnt bother me much 🧐👍
2years later, glad i made my fists out of the old scale, they ruined the design of mk 3.
Or ANY of the MKII units, by the time I was able to afford GW/FW comfortably those mother fuckers were years gone. Those mkii assault marines are my favorite unit, I’m incredibly reluctant to get recasts of them. Very curious to see what they’re moving to plastic
I know that you shouldn't jump to attribute to malice what can otherwise be attributed to incompetence, but perhaps this scale change is the reason that so many Horus heresy forge world kits have disappeared from sale over the last few years?
The evaporation of the product range does seem to have kicked off after the release of the Primaris marines, perhaps this scale change has been a long time coming, but forgeworld has been reticent to tell anyone about it, just as GW is reticent to tell anyone about upcoming releases more than a month before they happen.
Hence they have sought to sell off all the old scale kits and not restock them, before introducing a range of new scale models?
Totally agree, and I'm a Filthy Xenos. Love the New Jain Zar model, but 40mm base, yet Eldrad is still on a 25mm? Like What? Then the new Visarch is on 32mm, but other Eldar characters (and dark eldar as well) are getting these weird base sizes, 28.5mm for the new Howling banshees. So are all aspects supposed to be on 28.5mm? GW's answer "Well Yes, But No" just makes it worse.
They probably just messed up the scale on their 3d printer settings but already sent out for the molds so they just went with it.
The big ones do look better though. Must be annoying having collected 30k for years to now have your marines look small.
as someone who paints knights: bigger is not better.
....but, but I thought that size didn't matter?
It does if you hafta compensate …
I agree with you 100%! This is just a scam to make everyone buy new armies basicly (like we dont already spend all our money on gw). I love the way the old marines look on the table and still want that style and this is serious deterent for me starting new armies. It would have been nice to keep the standard size for horus heresy to keep the classic style alive now when primaris are taking over 40k.
I know people who spent years saying they'd like true scale marines relative to guardsmen, I was against it and I can see I am not alone.
Except they are also upscaling Guardsmen
@@tomasdawe4423 then what's the point?
@@ZontarDow I have no idea
@@ZontarDow to make the guardsman actually have good looking models
Yeah, this has been an issue for a while, and now it's getting out of hand.
But, I mean.... GW has gone off the rails.
What if the had just asked the players whether they want a scale increase by 10-15% or if they wanted it to stay the way it is? crazy thought, I know
One thing the Orkz got right is that the "heroic" characters are bigger!
Another reason why the modern printers of tomorrow will make a difference is that customers might make their own decision of scale after purchase. Assuming the freedom is there and the company cowed enough to realize it should work for and with its customers instead of against them...however, we don't the official route for such a persuit regardless.
Need the official supply* pardon the typo there its late and mobile devices are a headache..
The bigger size will sell a lot of new kits, because the size difference looks bad next to kits we already have. So basically they will try sell us stuff we already have. And I think it works too good for GW. Its a simple plan but effective
My late 90's berserk on 32mm "sector" base and somes tricks at the belt stand at one forehead or less under a primaris flat based ....i'll be fine thank you
The scale change started with the Deathwatch models, then the Space Marine heroes - if you look at those models what's really happening is these models have realistic proportions rather than "being upscaled" - all pre-Deathwatch space marines are missing 1/3rd of their body height and bits of their legs, it's actually a massive problem (yes, even if you remove the heroic scale head with a realistic smaller head, the scale is still awful). The Chaos Marines have a good upscale too i.e. realistic torsos. All you need to do is look at "how to draw a human" and see that the old marines are missing about a HEAD's worth of height - it's a bad issue but a throwback to the older heroic scale where models were wound markers and designed to be seen "from above".
I know it's annoying but at the end of the day all space marine prior to the Deathwatch are proportionally stupid / old school heroic scale. Can't say what is the right direction to go for but personally I try to upscale all my old models, give them a bit of extra height and add to the legs/torso.
Agreed. Squat marines look really stupid
The head-body ratio is for an unarmoured person. They head is the issue, not the body, as a I pointed out un the video, these models should look kinda squad thanks to the slabs of thick armour they are wearing that add vastly to width, 4 times more than height. The new proportions are those of an unarmoured human and look bizarre and kinda gangly for it.
Honestly I like my Marines to be larger then guardsmen, though the scale between diffrent Marine kits is slightly jarring.
If change is inevitable
Then nothing is changing at all
All the talk of more details is bullshit. New csm have the same amount of detail if not less than the Chosen from Dark Vengeance. Shit, even the Raptors/Warp Talons have the same amount of detail and both them and the Chosen are normal scale. Now why should normal marines be more detailed? Standard cookie cutter marines do not need the same amount of detail as a captain. Sternguard and Vanguard Veterans have lots of detail on them and they are normal scale, not to mention Vanguard Veterans aren't squatting. But you know I think less is more and you can think every tactical marine needs a cloak, tabard, one leg full of purity seals and the other one covered with skulls & aquilas.
Also rhinos & land raiders look small now but when marines are a head taller...
I got a bunch of the old terminators going back to eggy and cobra hooded if you want to borrow for a vid.
Yeah but how else your models get outdated to force you to buy?
I've been harping on putting all the models into a better scale with one another for almost ten years now. I want my imperial guard to look smaller next to the space marines, so I wholeheartedly welcome the change. That terminator on the right is how I imagined the entire plastic heresy range being done when I heard it was moving to plastic. Baroque, embracing grim dark by the balls, and chonkily in scale. I wish the basic space marines were the size of the Stormcast Annihilators, beefy and intimating like they are in the lore. I understand to get that change it requires temporary sacrifice for long term gain. I'll take it. The bad thing is that being disappointed in the decision is why we now have primaris lore. The original primaris line was designed simply as a scaled up replacement for the space marine line, but in the 11th hour it was changed to an entirely new line, partially because it was thought people would complain about the scale change, so now, here we are knee deep, arguably, in the worst lore decision made in any fictional universe. I would welcome the hobby opportunity to "upscale" my entire army, i'm probably a better painter now and that type of change gives me an excuse to buy new models.
There's no easy way to please everyone so fast. I get that these things take time. Out of all the bad decisions GW has made, I sincerely don't believe this is one of them. We know they have Mark 6 and mark 2 plastic cut already. I would imagine the mark 3 and 4 armor will get recut within the next five years along with catapharctii and tartaros terminators. We also know that the spartan and sicaran tank are moving to plastic too. We can deduce the rhino and most other "widespread" vehicles will get done in plastic. I imagine those will be in scale with the new line. so it will literally be mark 3, 4, and the two sets of terminators out of scale for a short bit (honestly, if I were GW, I would have just recut them anyway to prevent any scale issues). But, this is why they are starting with the Siege of Terra. Later marks allow them to cut new sprues, work on other stuff, then go backwards and get those older sprues recut for early Horus heresy. We can assume the great crusade will be the next expansion based on the mark IIs having been completed already. Everything else will be done at this new scale and I imagine it will get done in plastic relatively quickly since this is being regarded as a fresh start for the entire Horus heresy line.
Huh look at that... a mature, objective, well thought out opinion. Will wonders never cease.
To be honest I like the scale change but the fact is that many people have the old marines which leads them to restarting their entire army.