Your comments just after 2hrs are very much on point, the reduction in output on podcasts, etc for Heresy has become very much a signal that something is very very wrong
That vehicle squandron issue was literally fixed in 8th edition of 40k. Deploy next to each other with russes, sentinels, etc then move independently. Quite easy to house rule that one.
They should give vehicles talon and give Dreadnoughts squad, three dreads taken as a squad should be operating far more closely than two tanks would be and it'd disincentivise just making one Elites slot your Contemptor slot, because 3 dreads in a squad hits harder but is far less flexible.
Wow, you got me really perplexed about artificer armour sergeants at 23:40. I'm really struggling to find a clean way of avoiding this issue. I would say that using the armour save of the model that's closest to the shooting unit does much of the work. This makes it so that if you want your Sgt to tank, he is also tanking Lascannon/Plasma shots. However, that admittedly is annoying since, for the most part, you can't split fire and 5 Lascannons against a single Sgt is overkill.
@@Dragrun1 Yeah I was pretty sure that's exactly how that used to work. Kinda seems as good as it's ever gonna get, the "you can only tank x shots per turn" seems arbitrary and would pull me right out of the game. Do you have any ideas you think could work better?
For the reactions if they really have to be, as Macca said it's cool. Could also make them on an Initiative roll: 1-2 you fail, 3-4 you can react with a basic reaction(brace for charge(you get a lil bonus to LD if you lose or you go or smt, you overwatch, you go to ground) 5-6 you get the cool, like return fire, countercharge, fall back/teleport
Mate, that sounds cool. I'd say just use the minis initiative. So you have to roll equal to or under in order to react. Marines would react 2/3ds of the time, solar aux would 50/50.
I think battletech handles alternating activations the best, mix that with some kind of orders token or dice that can indicate unit status as well as action (gone to ground, pinned, ran, fired, broken, etc) to keep track of it all would be a huge win. I really like the idea of alternating activations where the damage is not applied until the end phase so every unit gets at least one turn to reduce the power of alpha strike, and having multiple units activate per "go" if you have a much higher unit count works quite well. Id like to hear your thoughts on activation methods from multiple games you've played.
Bolt action has simple but effective reactions, scout vehicles can recce out of the way of ranged attacks, infantry can go down and increase their save throw when shot at, all units can potentially ambush if ordered to do so to react to enemy movement and certain units can react fire when charged. All reactions have their place and can easily be countered
Yep, Bolt Action (and Gates of Antares as the sci-fi version) could teach 40K/HH a lot. Doesn't scale well into very large games, that's the only thing. But then... does 40K/HH? Not really.
@BittermanAndy I've found 2k+ games on an 8x6 table with limited order dice works really well so if there are 30 units on each side, limit the dice to 15 and the combat holds up
For years I've heard you talk about how heresy is all about picking a theme for your army and then paint the army to maximum effort and play a narrative game with a fellow hobbiest who has done the same. Taking that advice I finally started a army and done that, I picked things that look cool and what I think would fit the theme for my army, not min maxing every weapon and looking into dice averages. This is the impression I've gotten from your videos. Now in this video it sounds like (narrative) events have the same mindset as 40k tournaments. I hope this isn't the case... im going to continue making my death gaurd destroyer company with x10 destroyers with hand chem flamers, poisoners and preds with alchem flamers. In any case love your videos dude, think I'll buy a k2 on your recommendation, thanks for not being a shill
From my experience of UK events, most armies will have a theme. The more specific inclusions are where players tend to "min max", so things like what weapons their tactical sergeants have. There are a few players that will bring very strong armies, but that's going to be the case in any game, and some themed armies are just stronger than others. It is definitely different to a 40k tournament in terms of painting standard, tables, missions, and atmosphere. I think it comes down to no one wants to lose all of their games, and you need to be able to deal with certain types of threats (elite infantry, power armour infantry, tanks, dreadnoughts) with a limited number of points. If I take your example of Death Guard with destroyers and flamers, I would then look at how many points I had left and work out what anti-armour and anti-dreadnought units I need to bring.
@@trajanthegreat2928 Yeah the problem with Heresy stuff in the UK is less that people go in with beardy bullshit (though there's always one) because victories tend to be done by loyalty and stuff. Honestly the playerbase is pretty good about it. The problem is more that the balancing is so atrocious that several armies can build an OP bullshit list just by leaning into their theming a little. You can build obnoxious stuff that'll invalidate other armies by accident and that's the far bigger issue, because some beardy dude can be avoided. On the topic of list building yeah agreed, building a fluffy thematic army can easily tip over the other way into building an army that can't really do much. Thematic lists are nice but you also need to either be happy losing every game (you won't be) or you need to keep in mind the need to both take on multiple unit types and to actually score points. You need to temper your theme with the need to have a fairly rounded army.
@@NapoleonicWargaming Yo dummy. Is 40ks assault cannon even half the size of the A-10??? I think not. The Kheres assault cannon is fine. It's the assault cannons found on 40k land raiders, and terminators and in 30k the assault cannons the blood angels and imperial fists get.
Best part of old editions of GW games is the game becomes in a frozen state which you don't need to worry about GW messing with the game state anymore!
@basition it's a stretch, but the apocalypse tank from ra2. Big tank with a dozer blade. (In ra3 it has a roller, and tractor beam) Perhaps it's just childhood memories reshaped to fit. 🫠
My own experience - it's great BUT it promotes min-maxing almost to the exclusion of everything else and punishes anything non-competitive. Example: pinning is king, you could even say it's the... lynchpin of the whole game.
What went wrong? For me the fact that the background for this videos shows loads of out of stock products illustrates well 'what went wrong?' With HH2.0. Lack of availability of products puts a real damper on army building,
31:41 Pass tokens fix that. Alt activation is the way to go. Whomever goes first in this current system is more of a problem than alt activation who goes first.
Yeah, couldn't believe it when Macca said that going first in alternative activation is a big advantage. How about when your ENTIRE ARMY goes first, is that not self-evidently a much bigger advantage? We've all seen games over as a contest by the end of the first turn, not every game but often enough I'm sure.
Reactions ain't going anywhere, AFAIK I know they've made their way into every GW game in some form or another. I think most people like the interactivity.
I go you go has downsides but I think it is better than whole turns. You add pass tokens so that you don't have the player with more unit taking 5 turns at the end which helps a lot and the argument that whoever goes first has a big advantage doesn't make much sense because you're comparing it to a system where that's a way bigger problem. I go you go, specifically makes that problem less severe. It doesn't get rid of it completely but it improves it.
Started out really interesting, then it's bogged down into people talking out of context for half an hour about games they once played which is just NEVER interesting ("I rolled three 6s and a 2!", no-one cares Rimmer). Not sure if I'm going to finish it - probably not, it's getting very boring. Amazed that - even in the interesting bit at the start - nobody mentioned the rules writing itself. Previous edition: "re-roll to hit in close combat". This edition: "A model with this special rule, when it is attacking with a melee weapon in the close combat phase, if it has not already benefitted from this special rule in this phase, if an attack misses, may re-roll missed that missed attack with that melee weapon against that same enemy, if the enemy is not already dead and that dice has not already been re-rolled." I'm exaggerating, but not by much. It's just awful, awful, awful writing.
I think the woke will be going away now that the you-know-whos will want white men to die in their wars, but the trouble for GW is that have hired reams of mentally unwell fruitloops who will still be churning out the crazy.
Would that be Games Workshop’s recent promotion to be a FTSE100 company on the London Stock Exchange, or The Times awarding its CEO Kevin Rountree Business Person of the Year? I’m struggling to see the connection between this ‘woke deathgrip’ and a company that’s now worth £4.4bn and has greater brand and financial clout than other well-known UK brands like Burberry. Maybe you can tell us how this ‘woke deathgrip’ manifests in direct terms.
I've only played 2 games of heresy 2 hated it compared to V1, V1 had everything I needed so why play and buy into anymore updates unless it's good and Heresy V2 is a hybrid like aliens resurrection it's aliens but it's shit .
Your comments just after 2hrs are very much on point, the reduction in output on podcasts, etc for Heresy has become very much a signal that something is very very wrong
More episodes like this with Randy and Darci!
"King Dick of f**k mountain" made me lose it laughing.
*🔦Highlight #66* ▶1:07:47 = DiddLy, Leo, A$hton -&- writer/director *Donald Farmer* wants to know:
_" When's the next _*_Shed Freak-0FF_*_ going _*_down❓"_* [ 👩🌾+📽 = '🦈•👹☨ ✚ ✟ † ✞ ✟👹' ]
"...a Cheap joke." -✦- "I'll take it."
~ J. Bauman )
( You win an 🖥🍪 )
That vehicle squandron issue was literally fixed in 8th edition of 40k. Deploy next to each other with russes, sentinels, etc then move independently. Quite easy to house rule that one.
Quite a lot of it is easy to fix with house rules, which is fine while you're only playing in your house, but... what are we paying money for?
They should give vehicles talon and give Dreadnoughts squad, three dreads taken as a squad should be operating far more closely than two tanks would be and it'd disincentivise just making one Elites slot your Contemptor slot, because 3 dreads in a squad hits harder but is far less flexible.
@@sheevpalpatine9532 it's not an issue if vehicles are worth taking
Wow, you got me really perplexed about artificer armour sergeants at 23:40. I'm really struggling to find a clean way of avoiding this issue.
I would say that using the armour save of the model that's closest to the shooting unit does much of the work. This makes it so that if you want your Sgt to tank, he is also tanking Lascannon/Plasma shots. However, that admittedly is annoying since, for the most part, you can't split fire and 5 Lascannons against a single Sgt is overkill.
I think the best thing would be to just get rid of artificer on sergeants. Not needed when AP was reduced across the board anyway
@jakubgodlewski9104 congratulations, you just discovered how it worked in 1e
@@Dragrun1 Yeah I was pretty sure that's exactly how that used to work. Kinda seems as good as it's ever gonna get, the "you can only tank x shots per turn" seems arbitrary and would pull me right out of the game.
Do you have any ideas you think could work better?
@jakubgodlewski9104 there was no reason to change it from 1e
@ yeah, agreed
Good commentary by knowledgable fellas.
Cheers mate.
As a con the balance is terrible, as a pro the plastic kits, having solar auxilia in plastic is great, she they suck on the table
Solar Aux is so bad. Every time I rub SoH against them, they get crushed no matter how fun and fluffy a list I build.
For the reactions if they really have to be, as Macca said it's cool. Could also make them on an Initiative roll: 1-2 you fail, 3-4 you can react with a basic reaction(brace for charge(you get a lil bonus to LD if you lose or you go or smt, you overwatch, you go to ground) 5-6 you get the cool, like return fire, countercharge, fall back/teleport
Mate, that sounds cool. I'd say just use the minis initiative. So you have to roll equal to or under in order to react. Marines would react 2/3ds of the time, solar aux would 50/50.
@jamesespinosa690 yes, also a solution
You guys should converge like this on each book!
We are so back 😈
▶️ 1:39:39 = _" ....A lot of People like Blood 🍖 🌭 Sausage.... a lot of People are _*_M0R0NS. "_*
~ Phil Connors • Groundhog Day 🦫
I think battletech handles alternating activations the best, mix that with some kind of orders token or dice that can indicate unit status as well as action (gone to ground, pinned, ran, fired, broken, etc) to keep track of it all would be a huge win. I really like the idea of alternating activations where the damage is not applied until the end phase so every unit gets at least one turn to reduce the power of alpha strike, and having multiple units activate per "go" if you have a much higher unit count works quite well. Id like to hear your thoughts on activation methods from multiple games you've played.
Plastic Kits finally lowered the cost of entry to a point I could fool myself into paying.
Now my Heresy army is becoming my 40k army.
lowered cost?
gw mastered upselling like apple.
It 100% did not lower the cost of entry lol
Bolt action has simple but effective reactions, scout vehicles can recce out of the way of ranged attacks, infantry can go down and increase their save throw when shot at, all units can potentially ambush if ordered to do so to react to enemy movement and certain units can react fire when charged. All reactions have their place and can easily be countered
Yep, Bolt Action (and Gates of Antares as the sci-fi version) could teach 40K/HH a lot.
Doesn't scale well into very large games, that's the only thing. But then... does 40K/HH? Not really.
@BittermanAndy I've found 2k+ games on an 8x6 table with limited order dice works really well so if there are 30 units on each side, limit the dice to 15 and the combat holds up
@@BittermanAndy Although Bolt action point scaling is entirely dependent on how many Big tanks are brought to the table!
Things I agree with
>the IW praetor hammer is too big.
Things I disagree with
>the outer circle IW praetor hammer is big enough.
Unwieldy (x) please. Make excoriator chain axes go before power fists to make it more viable.
For years I've heard you talk about how heresy is all about picking a theme for your army and then paint the army to maximum effort and play a narrative game with a fellow hobbiest who has done the same. Taking that advice I finally started a army and done that, I picked things that look cool and what I think would fit the theme for my army, not min maxing every weapon and looking into dice averages. This is the impression I've gotten from your videos. Now in this video it sounds like (narrative) events have the same mindset as 40k tournaments. I hope this isn't the case... im going to continue making my death gaurd destroyer company with x10 destroyers with hand chem flamers, poisoners and preds with alchem flamers. In any case love your videos dude, think I'll buy a k2 on your recommendation, thanks for not being a shill
Events will always attract power-gamers. Even those who insist they aren't.
From my experience of UK events, most armies will have a theme. The more specific inclusions are where players tend to "min max", so things like what weapons their tactical sergeants have. There are a few players that will bring very strong armies, but that's going to be the case in any game, and some themed armies are just stronger than others. It is definitely different to a 40k tournament in terms of painting standard, tables, missions, and atmosphere.
I think it comes down to no one wants to lose all of their games, and you need to be able to deal with certain types of threats (elite infantry, power armour infantry, tanks, dreadnoughts) with a limited number of points. If I take your example of Death Guard with destroyers and flamers, I would then look at how many points I had left and work out what anti-armour and anti-dreadnought units I need to bring.
@@trajanthegreat2928 Yeah the problem with Heresy stuff in the UK is less that people go in with beardy bullshit (though there's always one) because victories tend to be done by loyalty and stuff. Honestly the playerbase is pretty good about it. The problem is more that the balancing is so atrocious that several armies can build an OP bullshit list just by leaning into their theming a little. You can build obnoxious stuff that'll invalidate other armies by accident and that's the far bigger issue, because some beardy dude can be avoided.
On the topic of list building yeah agreed, building a fluffy thematic army can easily tip over the other way into building an army that can't really do much. Thematic lists are nice but you also need to either be happy losing every game (you won't be) or you need to keep in mind the need to both take on multiple unit types and to actually score points. You need to temper your theme with the need to have a fairly rounded army.
@@XX-jn8co or just play Oops All Dreads and you are both fluffy and That Guy
But Macca, I take power swords
Breaching is good for the lower power weapons. Like assault cannons should be breaching not rending (why can it pop a land raider??).
Ask those T72s that had an A10 say hello...
@@NapoleonicWargaming Yo dummy. Is 40ks assault cannon even half the size of the A-10??? I think not.
The Kheres assault cannon is fine. It's the assault cannons found on 40k land raiders, and terminators and in 30k the assault cannons the blood angels and imperial fists get.
How is this for wound tanking. The 2+ Armour away from base level Sargents.
2+ Sergeants weren't a problem in 1e when you had to allocate to closest model. You just angled your shooters right.
Defender allocates is the problem
I like 2.0 as it got me i to HH, the plastic kits are also a win, i would like to try 1st edition but not a fan of all those expensive books.
Google the pdfs bro. It's free.
☕ PDF Coffee ☕- Mate
(4 x clicks & you have books 📚 1-9 Of 30K 1.0 ) Also $cribed has a lot of them + all the FAQs, Fan Expansions + + + +
2.0 = 🪙 plated 🐕 💩 when compared w/ 1.0 in almost every*_metric.*_
Best part of old editions of GW games is the game becomes in a frozen state which you don't need to worry about GW messing with the game state anymore!
Just get the pdfs and you'll be fine. You will enjoy 1.0 way more, trust me
I always take power swords Macca!
3:09 yeah, I think Plasma with rending would be too strong.
1:34:07 disagree. I’ll take rules with no models and have to find 3rd party 3D prints, over no model no rules any day
I think the Kratos would look better without the barbettes that don't make sense.
Also the main gun could be bigger
The Kratos is great! I love red alert 2. ☺️
Wait what tank does it look like In ra2?
@basition it's a stretch, but the apocalypse tank from ra2. Big tank with a dozer blade. (In ra3 it has a roller, and tractor beam)
Perhaps it's just childhood memories reshaped to fit. 🫠
How about GW come out with all the models required to play the game, and make upgrades compatible with all MKs…
You and I differ to the point of hilarity about a lot of things, but I always dig your take on rules.
My own experience - it's great BUT it promotes min-maxing almost to the exclusion of everything else and punishes anything non-competitive. Example: pinning is king, you could even say it's the... lynchpin of the whole game.
What went wrong? For me the fact that the background for this videos shows loads of out of stock products illustrates well 'what went wrong?' With HH2.0. Lack of availability of products puts a real damper on army building,
31:41 Pass tokens fix that. Alt activation is the way to go. Whomever goes first in this current system is more of a problem than alt activation who goes first.
Yeah, couldn't believe it when Macca said that going first in alternative activation is a big advantage. How about when your ENTIRE ARMY goes first, is that not self-evidently a much bigger advantage? We've all seen games over as a contest by the end of the first turn, not every game but often enough I'm sure.
Proposal for Solar Aux: Circle Edition, give Tercios the WHFB Empire rules.
But Macca I know a guy who knows a guy who knows a guy who puts power swords on everything.
Reactions ain't going anywhere, AFAIK I know they've made their way into every GW game in some form or another. I think most people like the interactivity.
I go you go has downsides but I think it is better than whole turns. You add pass tokens so that you don't have the player with more unit taking 5 turns at the end which helps a lot and the argument that whoever goes first has a big advantage doesn't make much sense because you're comparing it to a system where that's a way bigger problem. I go you go, specifically makes that problem less severe. It doesn't get rid of it completely but it improves it.
I go you go is whole turns. You're thinking alternating activation.
@@captainferrite yes, was about to say this.
I use power swords! There ok and are cheap enough. Also I don't give a fuck you don't use them :). I'm not a meta slave!. Regardless awesome video.
so back
Heresy 2.0 balance wise is utterly atrocious XD
As long as GW keep IGO UGO my interest will be middling at best
Started out really interesting, then it's bogged down into people talking out of context for half an hour about games they once played which is just NEVER interesting ("I rolled three 6s and a 2!", no-one cares Rimmer). Not sure if I'm going to finish it - probably not, it's getting very boring.
Amazed that - even in the interesting bit at the start - nobody mentioned the rules writing itself. Previous edition: "re-roll to hit in close combat". This edition: "A model with this special rule, when it is attacking with a melee weapon in the close combat phase, if it has not already benefitted from this special rule in this phase, if an attack misses, may re-roll missed that missed attack with that melee weapon against that same enemy, if the enemy is not already dead and that dice has not already been re-rolled." I'm exaggerating, but not by much. It's just awful, awful, awful writing.
Sisters of silence totally sidelined
Oh but we got femtodes
HH 2.0 really just feels like I am playing a weird mix of 7th and 8th mixed + 40k mindset. At that point I might as well just play 10th ed.
3D print forever
Fix Atramentar.
They need WS 5 fr
Well I'm from Utica and I've never ĥeard of dreadnoughts this broken.
Given recent news, is Games Workshop still beyond saving since it’s still in a woke deathgrip?
I think the woke will be going away now that the you-know-whos will want white men to die in their wars, but the trouble for GW is that have hired reams of mentally unwell fruitloops who will still be churning out the crazy.
I exclusively play 2nd/3rd edition 40k, no custodes at all 😁 the nuclear option i call it.
‘Woke’ lmao.
The most recent news i heard is that they removed female custodes
Would that be Games Workshop’s recent promotion to be a FTSE100 company on the London Stock Exchange, or The Times awarding its CEO Kevin Rountree Business Person of the Year?
I’m struggling to see the connection between this ‘woke deathgrip’ and a company that’s now worth £4.4bn and has greater brand and financial clout than other well-known UK brands like Burberry.
Maybe you can tell us how this ‘woke deathgrip’ manifests in direct terms.
2.0 was designed to fail. You can't change my mind.
I can almost believe this.
It was designed to continue making new "Editions" off the same game forcing the player base to buy new books and newer more "Meta" units
I've only played 2 games of heresy 2 hated it compared to V1, V1 had everything I needed so why play and buy into anymore updates unless it's good and Heresy V2 is a hybrid like aliens resurrection it's aliens but it's shit .
2.0 has big problems but i think its overall the best HH has been. i would chuck reactions and tone down deep strike