I forgot to mention that Gimli leads a small band of Dwarves to the Glittering Caves after the War of the Ring and a small enclave is established there. Their ultimate fate is supposed to be the same of all Dwarves: to fade into myth.
Excellent podcast , If i may , I'd very much like to listen to your old lore videos again , would you be so kind as to post me with a link to the hidden playlist ? Thank you
Gotta admit though the Elves fighting on the Deeping wall was very cool. The music was perfect, I'm glad we got to see elves fight on screen where they are done justice. The brief clash with the Dwarves in the Hobbit was so incredibly stupid.
I do remember reading somewhere, I'll have to find it, that while the Uruk-Hai were present at the battle/siege of Helms Deep, there weren't that many compared to the regular Orcs and Dunlandings who took up a majority of the army, it's my opinion and thought that they were the elite/heavy troops and commanders of the army, since that is what they were initially bred for. But then again it is hard to tell since Tolkien did sort of skim over the battles.
If I remember correctly, Tolkien just uses the term "orc" to refer both the normal breeds and the Uruk-Hai. The truth is likely that there's very little real difference. Uruks are just slightly taller, slightly stronger, and strong against the sun.
@@Thumbdumpandthebumpchump That may have been the case, if I do remember correctly the Uruk-hai (or rather Uruks in general) had normal human legs compared to their orc kin who were said to have bowed legs, but it is fun to discuss this because I do like your side to it
You are absolutely right. Actually, Saruman masters the Orc tribes of the southern parts of Moria, accompanied with Orc breeds that he creates. So, we will be propably right to hink that Uruk-hais are the elite troops and the regular Orcs are the workhorses and the backbone of the army. That makes 10.000. As for the number, in the chapter that Merry and Pippin talk to Aragorn and Gandalf when they meet in Orthanc's walls, Merry describes how the Ents reach the Nan Curunir right in time for the departure of Saruman's army. He clearly describes the departure "ten thousand or more", who go either to the western side of the river or pass through a bridge over Isen. That's for answer to Galu's question.
@@nikoszaxarias5200 But then there is also the question of how many were at Helm's Deep before Erkenbrand and Gandalf arrive, it's been a awhile since I read the books but i do believe all together there were around 3000 maybe 3500 men of Rohan at Helm's deep, and if so they do a decent job against a force that's at least three times it's size, and we're talking about a Calvary based nation when it comes to warfare
@@edragondale9222 , the answer lies to the mathematics of sieges. It is measured that in a siege, the attacker's numerical advantage must be 4 to 1 or even 5 to 1 to achieve a good victory, because the fortifications and the ladders of the infantry cost many lives for the attacker. The rams provide only limited protection- and all this without archers, who multiply the impact in favour of the defender. So the Orcs, with their 3 to 1 numerical advantage, couldn't have a decisive advantage compared to Rohirrim, not even taking into account that Helm's Deep was a strong fort, with good and thick walls, very good supplies and a full armory for many hundreds of men. But we have to admit that Tolkien, who is linguist, has little or no knowledge concerning medieval warfare, that's why his novels show an overbalanced feature of warfare of each nation.
Well, it would be more like 'Old man the old', as 'Gamling' is more used for describing 'Old person'. Definetly glad I'm not the only one who picked up on this though.
I would argue regarding the culvert that there was probably a metal grate that sappers either removed it in the chaos or slipped underwater through it if it had degraded and that had somehow missed attention. On the note of Théoden's charge, the gate being blown up by a second bomb at the end of Aragorn's speech is when he orders it.
I think the key distinctions between film and books are in the details of the uruk hai vs human soldier dichotomy. In the books human soldiers were quite capable of killing 10+ orc/uruks to a man, which isnt as scary/dramatic on film if basically every rank a file rohirrim looks like a superhero. So jackson inflated their capabilities to be more menacing, and so needed a more significant force for the good guys. Also i believe the actor who played haladir had asked if there was a way to have more screen time, and show off the elves more, because he enjoyed the role.
Galu! I absolutely love your lore videos and listen to them all them time as I work! Could I get the link to the old videos? Please and thank you! Keep up the awesome work!
To put it like this. The conflict between Rohan and Dunland started when the ancestors of Theoden drove out the dunlendings that had already settled half of the land. Of course it didn't get any better when Helm killed Freca
He mentions the hidden playlist in the 40,000 Subscriber Special stream. Hope its ok for me to post the link here. I love these videos too. th-cam.com/play/PLesZst-z4ywZSrEMa1ybHWhNXfxZivH0W.html
It is interesting that you mention the power of cavalry within the works of Tolkien. It reminds me of something I heard, potentially within the special features of the films, but potentially elsewhere. The story goes that Tolkien himself was much put out by the Norman conquest of 1066 (as someone who is descended from Norman knights Tolkien and I take different views on this matter). In particular Tolkien believed that it was the Norman cavalry that was the deciding factor and had the Anglo-Saxons their own cavalry they could have won. The Rohirrim are clearly derived from the Anglo-Saxons and in essence represent the very Anglo-Saxons who would have been able to win the Battle of Hastings. Now I would not go so far as to place equivalence between Isengard and the Normans. Rather than being analogous to historical events the strength of the Rohirrim cavalry is representative of Tolkien's (over)estimation of the real historical power of cavalry. Tolkien's belief that an Anglo-Saxon force with a strong cavalry component could have reversed the outcome of the Norman invasion of 1066 is reflected in the ability of Rohan to fight off the overwhelming force of Isengard. At least that's what I would put forward based on Tolkien's opinion.
You use the word over-estimation but you really shouldnt because in talkien's work the cav is used has a potent killing force yes but its more of a moral thing for example at the battle of pelenor fields the army of mordor buckles under the charge of Rohan and Imrahil because seeing what is essentially a bulke of muscle coming straight at you is really freaking scary I dont know about you but if I see a horse charging me im running the fuck away, plus if you apply this logic to the battle of helms deep where in the books the attackers are beaten back at the dyke or wall (cant remember) by a sudden volley of arrows imagine what people on horseback suddenly bursting forth from what you tought was basically a conquered fortress might damper your morale
I feel like I have to disagree with you on the subject of elves: their arrival and subsequent death is highly symbolic of the Third Age in general that dosent neccesarily lessen the impact of Rohan. The elves are very clearly portrayed as fading, a shadow of the force that could once gather hosts to challenge Sauron. Its also noteworthy that the elves are only ever shown during the night time sequence, fighting under the stars and by the time that the sun rises (symbolizing a new age) that only men and orcs are left in the battlefield to in balance.
Could it be that Tolkin had very pessimistic spin on genetics and phenotypes ? Everytime he metions the Numenorian line in history and their Genetics its always : inbreeding = strong, noble, advanced refreshing the gene pool = weakness , watering the blood , degeneration As if all good Numenorian phenotypes would be rezessive and weak.
Firstly, I wouldn't call it "inbreeding" - there's quite a lot of Numenoreans, indeed an entire nation; and actually when Ar-Pharazon forces his cousin to marry him, that's seen as especially evil (except by his supporters of course, which admittedly are most of the Numenorians). Secondly, not all phenotypes would have to be rezessive, the "watering of the blood" happens over time. And since the Numenoreans are superhuman, they basically become normal humans over time, which is certainly bad for the most part. And lastly, it's shown at various times (especially in the story of Eldacar), that this mingling with other "races" of men has many advantages, and indeed the thought of Numenorean supremacy is what leads to their downfall.
Tolkien had a more humble view of genetics. He wasn’t particularly prejudiced against anyone, but he also didn’t obsess over diversity like modern people usually do. He seems to emphasize the destructive influence on one’s lineage if they mixed too much or too little.
@@otwk Excellent points dear Sir. I would would like to elaborate my postion. 1. Inbreeding: I meant the gene pool of the entire Numenorian population in contrast to Man. Where Numenorian traits can only be retained by breeding 2 Numenorians. Where a mixture results e.g. in directly lowering the lifespan. 2. Watering the Blood: lets lay out the "good" traits of the Numenorians which are observeable: -great Height -long life -capability of creating advanced society.* *e.g. building Minas thirith black wall, or Sarumans tower. trough breeding, with the "normal" Man, over time, every single of this Traits gets reduced to "normal" values. Even simple Mendel Genetics would refute this logic though. Especially if the Traits would make the phenotype very successful. 3. Numenorian supremacy I cant completly agree with you on this. The pure Numenorians from Dol Amroth are especially described noble, pure and all good. There was no sign of moral sin.
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I forgot to mention that Gimli leads a small band of Dwarves to the Glittering Caves after the War of the Ring and a small enclave is established there. Their ultimate fate is supposed to be the same of all Dwarves: to fade into myth.
Excellent podcast , If i may , I'd very much like to listen to your old lore videos again , would you be so kind as to post me with a link to the hidden playlist ? Thank you
@@jgoldberg9489 th-cam.com/play/PLesZst-z4ywZSrEMa1ybHWhNXfxZivH0W.html
@ Le athae mellon
Gotta admit though the Elves fighting on the Deeping wall was very cool. The music was perfect, I'm glad we got to see elves fight on screen where they are done justice. The brief clash with the Dwarves in the Hobbit was so incredibly stupid.
@ arachir galudirithon, please dont stop your middle earth lore videos....they are the best by far that we are blessed with....thank you so much!
I do remember reading somewhere, I'll have to find it, that while the Uruk-Hai were present at the battle/siege of Helms Deep, there weren't that many compared to the regular Orcs and Dunlandings who took up a majority of the army, it's my opinion and thought that they were the elite/heavy troops and commanders of the army, since that is what they were initially bred for. But then again it is hard to tell since Tolkien did sort of skim over the battles.
If I remember correctly, Tolkien just uses the term "orc" to refer both the normal breeds and the Uruk-Hai. The truth is likely that there's very little real difference. Uruks are just slightly taller, slightly stronger, and strong against the sun.
@@Thumbdumpandthebumpchump That may have been the case, if I do remember correctly the Uruk-hai (or rather Uruks in general) had normal human legs compared to their orc kin who were said to have bowed legs, but it is fun to discuss this because I do like your side to it
You are absolutely right. Actually, Saruman masters the Orc tribes of the southern parts of Moria, accompanied with Orc breeds that he creates. So, we will be propably right to hink that Uruk-hais are the elite troops and the regular Orcs are the workhorses and the backbone of the army. That makes 10.000. As for the number, in the chapter that Merry and Pippin talk to Aragorn and Gandalf when they meet in Orthanc's walls, Merry describes how the Ents reach the Nan Curunir right in time for the departure of Saruman's army. He clearly describes the departure "ten thousand or more", who go either to the western side of the river or pass through a bridge over Isen. That's for answer to Galu's question.
@@nikoszaxarias5200 But then there is also the question of how many were at Helm's Deep before Erkenbrand and Gandalf arrive, it's been a awhile since I read the books but i do believe all together there were around 3000 maybe 3500 men of Rohan at Helm's deep, and if so they do a decent job against a force that's at least three times it's size, and we're talking about a Calvary based nation when it comes to warfare
@@edragondale9222 , the answer lies to the mathematics of sieges. It is measured that in a siege, the attacker's numerical advantage must be 4 to 1 or even 5 to 1 to achieve a good victory, because the fortifications and the ladders of the infantry cost many lives for the attacker. The rams provide only limited protection- and all this without archers, who multiply the impact in favour of the defender. So the Orcs, with their 3 to 1 numerical advantage, couldn't have a decisive advantage compared to Rohirrim, not even taking into account that Helm's Deep was a strong fort, with good and thick walls, very good supplies and a full armory for many hundreds of men. But we have to admit that Tolkien, who is linguist, has little or no knowledge concerning medieval warfare, that's why his novels show an overbalanced feature of warfare of each nation.
The brief but epic charge of the elves into the breach was one of my fav moments of the film
Gamling directly translate in swedish to old.
So for a swedish person his name would be old the old.
Well, it would be more like 'Old man the old', as 'Gamling' is more used for describing 'Old person'. Definetly glad I'm not the only one who picked up on this though.
It's lunch time , After the morning spent at the university . Now sit back relax and enjoy a Galu Video :)
You are the real MVP I have a long hall flight today and this is exactly what I need.
Got to say, Rohan doesn't receive much love from DAC so I'm really enjoying this Rohan content atm in the lord videos
"Helm! Helm! Helm is arisen and comes back to war! Helm for Théoden King!"
Amazingly informative and wonderfully presented as always!
Absolutely love these. Never stop.
Great lore as always, though what about Gimil and the dwarfs that he led to the glittering cave to start a colony after the war??
So cavalry in the lore is just as overpowered as it is in DaC? Nice.
The COOM
Divide 4 dev diary,? Eazy love your videos
Epic, gimme more of those pleas sir!
I would argue regarding the culvert that there was probably a metal grate that sappers either removed it in the chaos or slipped underwater through it if it had degraded and that had somehow missed attention.
On the note of Théoden's charge, the gate being blown up by a second bomb at the end of Aragorn's speech is when he orders it.
I think the key distinctions between film and books are in the details of the uruk hai vs human soldier dichotomy. In the books human soldiers were quite capable of killing 10+ orc/uruks to a man, which isnt as scary/dramatic on film if basically every rank a file rohirrim looks like a superhero. So jackson inflated their capabilities to be more menacing, and so needed a more significant force for the good guys. Also i believe the actor who played haladir had asked if there was a way to have more screen time, and show off the elves more, because he enjoyed the role.
Galu! I absolutely love your lore videos and listen to them all them time as I work! Could I get the link to the old videos? Please and thank you! Keep up the awesome work!
To put it like this. The conflict between Rohan and Dunland started when the ancestors of Theoden drove out the dunlendings that had already settled half of the land. Of course it didn't get any better when Helm killed Freca
*Plug the hole in the deeping wall* *the water rises* *unplug in the hole when the uruks attacks* "Break the dam! Release the river!"
Woo-hoo, time to bask in more glorious lore.
Thank you much
I saw in a recent stream you mentions a hidden playlist of the old lore videos? Any way I could see them? Absolutely love these videos
He mentions the hidden playlist in the 40,000 Subscriber Special stream. Hope its ok for me to post the link here. I love these videos too. th-cam.com/play/PLesZst-z4ywZSrEMa1ybHWhNXfxZivH0W.html
@@tremoxo appreciated, I just don't know of any way to contact him if he doesn't see the comment lol
Fun fact: Gamling simply means "old person" in Norwegian
Also known as Helm's Holler! :-)
It is interesting that you mention the power of cavalry within the works of Tolkien. It reminds me of something I heard, potentially within the special features of the films, but potentially elsewhere. The story goes that Tolkien himself was much put out by the Norman conquest of 1066 (as someone who is descended from Norman knights Tolkien and I take different views on this matter). In particular Tolkien believed that it was the Norman cavalry that was the deciding factor and had the Anglo-Saxons their own cavalry they could have won.
The Rohirrim are clearly derived from the Anglo-Saxons and in essence represent the very Anglo-Saxons who would have been able to win the Battle of Hastings. Now I would not go so far as to place equivalence between Isengard and the Normans. Rather than being analogous to historical events the strength of the Rohirrim cavalry is representative of Tolkien's (over)estimation of the real historical power of cavalry.
Tolkien's belief that an Anglo-Saxon force with a strong cavalry component could have reversed the outcome of the Norman invasion of 1066 is reflected in the ability of Rohan to fight off the overwhelming force of Isengard.
At least that's what I would put forward based on Tolkien's opinion.
You use the word over-estimation but you really shouldnt because in talkien's work the cav is used has a potent killing force yes but its more of a moral thing for example at the battle of pelenor fields the army of mordor buckles under the charge of Rohan and Imrahil because seeing what is essentially a bulke of muscle coming straight at you is really freaking scary I dont know about you but if I see a horse charging me im running the fuck away, plus if you apply this logic to the battle of helms deep where in the books the attackers are beaten back at the dyke or wall (cant remember) by a sudden volley of arrows imagine what people on horseback suddenly bursting forth from what you tought was basically a conquered fortress might damper your morale
After this video I will start Rohan campaign in DAC :D
I feel like I have to disagree with you on the subject of elves: their arrival and subsequent death is highly symbolic of the Third Age in general that dosent neccesarily lessen the impact of Rohan. The elves are very clearly portrayed as fading, a shadow of the force that could once gather hosts to challenge Sauron. Its also noteworthy that the elves are only ever shown during the night time sequence, fighting under the stars and by the time that the sun rises (symbolizing a new age) that only men and orcs are left in the battlefield to in balance.
Well, technically Helm is a murderer - he killed Freca, which led to the whole war in the first place.
he was seen as a lad though so no one cares about that.
So what you are telling me is Tolkien's cavalry is med 2 cavalry.
no, because they can dismount.
Yay
And then Helm became a ring wraith
/s
❤️😮
Could it be that Tolkin had very pessimistic spin on genetics and phenotypes ?
Everytime he metions the Numenorian line in history and their Genetics its always :
inbreeding = strong, noble, advanced
refreshing the gene pool = weakness , watering the blood , degeneration
As if all good Numenorian phenotypes would be rezessive and weak.
Firstly, I wouldn't call it "inbreeding" - there's quite a lot of Numenoreans, indeed an entire nation; and actually when Ar-Pharazon forces his cousin to marry him, that's seen as especially evil (except by his supporters of course, which admittedly are most of the Numenorians).
Secondly, not all phenotypes would have to be rezessive, the "watering of the blood" happens over time. And since the Numenoreans are superhuman, they basically become normal humans over time, which is certainly bad for the most part.
And lastly, it's shown at various times (especially in the story of Eldacar), that this mingling with other "races" of men has many advantages, and indeed the thought of Numenorean supremacy is what leads to their downfall.
Tolkien had a more humble view of genetics. He wasn’t particularly prejudiced against anyone, but he also didn’t obsess over diversity like modern people usually do. He seems to emphasize the destructive influence on one’s lineage if they mixed too much or too little.
@@otwk Excellent points dear Sir.
I would would like to elaborate my postion.
1. Inbreeding:
I meant the gene pool of the entire Numenorian population in contrast to Man. Where Numenorian traits can only be retained by breeding 2 Numenorians. Where a mixture results e.g. in directly lowering the lifespan.
2. Watering the Blood:
lets lay out the "good" traits of the Numenorians which are observeable:
-great Height
-long life
-capability of creating advanced society.*
*e.g. building Minas thirith black wall, or Sarumans tower.
trough breeding, with the "normal" Man, over time, every single of this Traits gets reduced to "normal" values.
Even simple Mendel Genetics would refute this logic though. Especially if the Traits would make the phenotype very successful.
3. Numenorian supremacy
I cant completly agree with you on this. The pure Numenorians from Dol Amroth are especially described noble, pure and all good. There was no sign of moral sin.
Here it is today - imgur.com/gallery/AbieNCU Yes, Middle Earth is, er was, real...