#34: Against Empathy, Altruism, Sex Ratio Regulation | Robert Sapolsky Father-Offspring Interviews
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 ก.พ. 2025
- Episode 34 of Father-Offspring Interviews. Topics in this episode include the legitimacy of altruism, downsides of empathy, and biological regulations of birth ratios.
Captions available for translation.
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0:00: Intro
0:51: Question 1 (Empathy and altruism)
24:04: Question 2 (Factor regulation sex ratios)
I got 5 of his books and first thing I can easily say is, the prices are super decent that I couldn't believe it, I mean, compared with other writers, prof. Salposky is a gem ❤❤. Thank you for all your work, authenticity and contributions! ❤
I wish all of the lifetime achievement awards upon Professor S
I've been listening to Behave every evening for at least an hour...for a few months now. Sometimes I switch to Determined, for a change 😊. I hope to know them by heart ❤️
I have Determined but I’m still reading through Behave. I’ve been enjoy it so much ❤
I’m always in awe of Dr. Sapolsky’s teaching abilities. What a gift and thank you for sharing your gift! 🌟⭐️🌟
Thank you.... I learn so much from these talks.
Thank you! Very interesting and enlightening subjects as always. My now quite aged brain cells always swell just a tad thanks to this program.
I get fascinating every episode thank you for sharing knowledge with us Dr. Sapolsky.
Thanks for sharing these Facts, our country ( USA ) needs more Facts to survive our crazy times.
Yay! Every time I see one of these new to me, it brightens my day. Thank you both for taking the time to do and share this with everyone. Y'all make the world a better place.
Thanks for another great episode! I am learning so much!
Against Empathy by Paul Bloom is a great read, if you are empathic or interested in understanding, the mechanisms of empathy.
There is a scale: sympathy, empathy, compasion. Sympathy means you can understand someone's pain, you have a refference for it. Empathy involves actually being able to feel, that said pain. Compassion means that you are willing to do something, to alleviate someone's pain.
As prof. Sapolsky said, it's not easy to be empathic, and in some circumstances it can be detrimental...
Wednesday evenings are special :)
Or thursday morning 😁
I’m not exactly swimming in shame, so let me prove it: I think Why Zebras Don't Get Ulcers is a literary gem. But if you really want to blow some minds, Determined: A Life Without Free Will should be required reading in every science and philosophy course at university. Heck, let’s make a Coles Notes version mandatory for high schoolers too! Sure, it might throw a wet blanket over their holiday cheer, but who doesn’t love a gift that screams, “Merry Christmas, you’re not in control of anything!” 55555555
I get it, "Christmas" might send some people into a frenzy, but here’s the kicker-I have zero shame and even less free will! Honestly, it’s a dream come true. Who needs the First Amendment when you can just blame the cosmos for every spicy word choice? I can trigger people left and right, and guess what? No guilt! (Wait, is feeling no guilt even possible without free will? Or is that just the universe trolling us? I’ll never know, but hey, it’s not my decision!
You are in control but you can't control it.
Thank you so much for these wonderful mind bites!
I take the book "Determined" with me to the coffee shop, and it really pisses off a lot of people. Makes me so happy.😊
Interesting topics this week!
Thank you for your show.
I’m altruistic because it makes the world a better place. I rarely get reciprocation.
But I’m AuDHD and not like normal people.
I fix problems I see when in the world like getting a shopping cart or debris out of the street because it needs to be done.
I experience too much empathy. I am overwhelmed by other people’s emotions.
Great show this week !!!!!!!
"merely feeling empathic is a virtue in of itself". This is exactly what I thought of when we hear people say the phrase our thoughts and prayers. I hear this so often. Like it gives them this warm fuzzy feeling but no action on the other side.
Ah yes, that good ole "T and P."
Even if nobody else ever finds out, we will know. In most cases, people like this have been brought up believing that they need to be a good person. They feel good about themselves if they do good deeds. The pay off, is emotional. They also feel bad if they don't do good. Altruism is just like any other self gratification action, except that someone else also gains.
Thanks for the shout out to brine shrimp! :)
Our poster child of unlikely species 😂
In non political questions Sapolsky is trustworthy.
I wonder if the high levels of empathy that some people show are based on what they think they needed at a time in their life, probably most often as small children. Interesting, if not a little depressing, information about males. Though, perhaps the most compelling argument I've ever heard for men to get on board in terms of wanting equality of outcome.
Determined is awesome, i vibe with these two beautiful people. Godspeed
An interesting sidenote on empathy and its relation to neurodivergence (or more specifically ADHD) that I've recently done a little exploring is the tendency to view our personal empathic sensitivity as evidence of real marginalisation (of the other).
In light of recent events it struck me of how wildly off kilter empathy seemed globally - and what I've come to realise is that most people don't appreciate that empathy is not proof of rightness, its proof of connection - and so my ideology/causes structures my empathy (wondering whether one could link it to your talk on cognitive biases).
In ADHD it's a function of our emotion dysregulation, or hypersensitivity, but that is always driven by perception.
explains why my mother would get angry at those around her who were experiencing pain. she could not recognize and deal with her empathic pain.
For me, empathy intensity also seems to be connected to the ability to act or not act on it. If one considers escape (Gotta get out of here) the empathetic reaction may come from an inability to change or help the situation. My wife watches TV, and when babies wail, or some fictional spy is being tortured, I leave the room. Yet in both cases altruism, (I can help, without concern of reward) , the level of empathetic reaction is cancelled by active response. Removing someone else's pain requires not a hardening of empathy, but a temporary reduction.
I think its Bishop Tutu that said "Compassion without action is just observation." Noted: Determined is a book I read and was compelled to action: I bought copies for my daughters.
Marshall Rosenberg makes a distinction between EMPATY (ability to stay WITH a person, to provide emotional support) and SIMPATY (ability to feel the same feelings of another person). Prof. Saplolsky uses the word EMPATY to encompass both. Is it worth to make the difference?
I'm not sure why varying levels of altruism across the population is surprising to some. As social organisms, we evolved feedback mechanisms that make it feel good to help other members in your troop/pack. The good deed was beneficial to the social group, which was therefore beneficial to the individual. That instinctive altruism is balanced against some level of selfishness. During lean times, some level of selfishness improves the individual's survivability, and thus their ecological fitness.
Of course, these traits lie on spectra from some to a lot with some people being sociologically selfish and some people being over-the-top altruistic.
“She's the sort of woman who lives for others - you can tell the others by their hunted expression.”
-CS Lewis
Love this content, this should be teached at highschool level. Thank you so much!
You should put your best quotes to music so we can all chill a bit while being reminded of the subject, chillstep is ideal.
Great insights. Thank you!
i got 2 books Determined straight away 1 for me and 1 for my parents so I can read the book when I visit my parents 😂
I’m not exactly swimming in shame, so let me prove it: I think Why Zebras Don't Get Ulcers is a literary gem. But if you really want to blow some minds, Determined: A Life Without Free Will should be required reading in every science and philosophy course at university. Heck, let’s make a Coles Notes version mandatory for high schoolers too! Sure, it might throw a wet blanket over their holiday cheer, but who doesn’t love a gift that screams, “Merry Christmas, you’re not in control of anything
I get it, "Christmas" might send some people into a frenzy, but here’s the kicker-I have zero shame and even less free will! Honestly, it’s a dream come true. Who needs the First Amendment when you can just blame the cosmos for every spicy word choice? I can trigger people left and right, and guess what? No guilt! (Wait, is feeling no guilt even possible without free will? Or is that just the universe trolling us? I’ll never know, but hey, it’s not my decision!
Good morning sir Sapolsky
Shahid from India
Where is the paper about pathological punishment please?
The punishment of good doers study was done in Switzerland (University of St. Gallen, Herrmann/Thöni/Gächter, 2008) and it concentrated on people from big cities in various countries, it turned out that in highly individualistic, meritocratic societies people punished free riders more but good doers a bit whereas in collective authoritarian societies there was a high level of punishing free riders but good doers as well, worst "offenders":) were from Muscat, Athens, Ryad (I find Athens the most extraordinary example as Greece is considered a democratic, Western society), the best behaved:) were Boston, Melbourne, Nottingham, Melbourne stood out as it punished the heavy and light free riders but only punished light do gooders whereas people in Boston also punished heavy do gooders
Maybe Sapolsky is referring to another study but in this study only Minsk and Dnipopetrovsk were included as former Soviet Union countries, Minsk was worse (I wonder about Moscow or St.Petersburg)
Menendez Brothers - With the recent development, do you think this is a step in the right direction, in what you talk about in your book determinism?
On too much empathy: there's actually a concept called "[caregiver/empathy/compassion] [fatigue/burnout]." Being empathetic can be thoroughly exhausting if the people you're empathizing with are going through a lot.
As well, people with BPD are more capable of recognizing negative emotions in others, and they feel emotions more strongly than the general population. If empathy triggers the anterior cingulate cortex in the same way as one's own feelings do, it stands to reason that empathetic people with BPD feel others' pain in a very visceral way.
You're right, Robert! Totally cool subject! I feel like you have swimmed into the cool worlds and have a vast repository of cool knowledge! It blows my mind!
Another great one, thank you very much! I would have a follow up question for the last one. How does a system, like male vs female ratios of birth, with all the mentioned complexities of how it works and balances itself, actually knows about itself and makes it´s "choices" about, for eg, lets get 110 y chromosomes vs 100 to make it even at their reproductive stage? Is there evidence about what was defined as the collective unconscious or any other sort of mechanism that works this way?
Question: Richard Wrangham hypothesises (if I’m understanding him correctly) that homo sapien became increasingly cooperative in part because beta males would gang up to defeat alpha males. Reproductively successful beta males exhibited less reactive violence (exhibited by alpha males) and more strategic, cooperative violence. Any thoughts? (Also, thank you. Been following you since the first Teaching Company course, which was brilliant.)
The use of the argument that altruism does not exist because it always confers a benefit on the giver is all too often to draw a moral equivalence between selfishness and altruism. But in fact the dstinction is one of understanding, rationality and courage.
The well known game play of the "Tragedy of the commons" explains how the pursuit of self
interest leads to damaging consequences to both the individual and others.
Altruism can best be seen as the moral leadership of people weakened by distrust. Altruism is to take a risk. It is social entrepreneurialism. And like all people who dare to stand out, it will be attacked by those whose lack of understanding and courage it exposes.
There are limits to the practicality of altruism. Because it aims to build trust by setting an example, if the risks of taking the example are too threatening then the example backfires as it will cause people to retreat rather than follow. The building of trust is incremental.
One might see christianity as a religion of altruism on the basis that Jesus was crucified for taking the risk of arguing for social trust in an environment of narrow and damaging distrust. Betrayal in consequence of the weakness of narrowly self interested men runs through the Jesus story. One can interpret the christian myth as Jesus being the original risk taker, who died to save the rest of humanity from its cycle of self harm caused by its own narrow logic. It can certainly be argued that christianity permitted the growth of large societies for which process social trust was indispensable.
People want to make a difference. Donating a healthy organ is deeply meaningful to them. They feel better about themselves too.
Get your hands off my organ!
I have to show my uncle this video. He will get a Bill Clinton "I feel your pain," reference.
Sincere question: why do girls go crazy for rock stars/guitar players? There has got to be an evolutionary reason behind the hysteria/ frenzy?
I think true altruism can only be carried out by someone who doesn't feel fulfilled/accomplished from helping others. If someone does feel those things, helping others is inherently its own reward.
Nice video! I don't see people who don't vaccinate their kids to freeride off herd immunity as altruists or acting out of altruism (and I wouldn't call them anti-vaxxers either). Billionaires paying bribes to get their kids into Harvard, are not typically seen as altruists either.
Can you link studies profesor is refering to? I can't find anything about there being 110 y for 100 x sperm in humans.
Altruism is educative to oneself and to others. To understand that their are enlargements of bonds and similitudes with people we are not otherwise in direct relationship with is a key to knowledge of deeper feeling and sense of who we are and the nature of our common purpose. I don't believe it's transactional. :)
Pure altruism is as impossible as free will.
@@judlpd The use of the word 'pure' is a misnomer.
@@andrewbaker8373 The use of the word “misnomer” is a misnomer.
I once met a man who said he truly felt symptom of PMS when his wife had her period.
I feel it is important to note that Sapolsky, while giving all sides to why compassion or empathy can be seen as bad or good, is himself an altruistic man who uses his intelligence, handwork, research, wish to share his knowledge and thus promote compassion, I find his work extremely, convincing as to why humans need compassion and empathy to survive and blaming judging others is ridiculous as it is impossible to judge another person without personal bias of how you yourself would act, when you yourself have never been the person you are judging. Anyway, this is an incredibly brilliant talented gifted man that chooses to use his "gifts" to educate the public, as well as promote compassion. Often these types of people use religion as motivation to promote kindness and good behaviour while he explains that it is actually good for humanity as a whole in which he uses science, history, and research findings to show why this is the case. I am completely in awe that this man is able to eloquently and intelligently show why religion is not needed, and in fact science, game theory, primatology has shown why cooperation among others is necessary, outside of the realm that it will get you into heaven or keep you out of hell (athiest). I also, have struggled with this as an atheist, not so much personally (but yes also personally) why do good if there is no after life. Because doing good promotes humanity, and basically doing good feels good.
The second mouse displayed empathy towards the wounded first mouse, but the investigator who made the incision wound in the first mouse perhaps displayed a lot less empathy.
In human populations, it seems to be the case that there are more male babies during wars and immediatly after them. Which seems counterintuitive, given the explanations given in the video.
What if someone is delusional and think they are high ranking, isn't that the exact same outcome as actually being???
❤❤❤❤❤❤❤
why is it called father-offspring and not father-daughter or parent-offspring? Just wordplay to make it more catchy?
I'm still kind of bummed that mirror neurons don't exist.
I'm curious, do baboons experience vicarious pain? Do you think this is partly the basis for altruistic appearing behavior?
But even Maimonides would assert that God sees all acts, good or bad. So in order for an act to be truly altruistic, even God must not know who's giving the charity. Which actually often seems to be the case.
But as there is no god it doesn’t really matter.
@@judlpd No God for you!
🥰🤓💯👍
If there is no evidence of freewheel among human behavior, what's the point of going to psychotherapy?
Cause they can prime the right brain areas and change your life trajectory with your efforts and assistance based on where you want to be
The point is that it's the path to getting better whether you're _actually_ choosing it or you _feel_ like you're choosing it. It's the same reason that I don't agree with Dr Sapolsky on the idea that there's no point in punishment and reward. Whether there's free will or not, we know that positive reinforcement and punishment change behaviours.
Sounds like empathy + training to overcome the anxious response = heroism
Pardon my geekness, but see original Star Trek, S3 E12 I believe, "The Empath".
TIL: there are elephant seal incels.
I have Determined but I’m still reading through Behave. I’ve been enjoy it so much ❤