The Saga of the Second Ave Subway
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 เม.ย. 2023
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The Second Ave Subway is over a hundred years in the making. And it's still not done. How did we get here? And where do we move from here? The story of the Second Avenue Subway is what were are going to talk about today - starting with its predecessor the Second Avenue El all the way to talking about Second Ave Phase 2, Phase 3, and Phase 4. Enjoy and don't forget to subscribe and like this video!
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The Central Park West Line is A,B,C and D Trains. A C E is 8th Ave from 50th St to Chambers St - World Trade Center
Thanks. Someone pointed that out too. Video typo 😅
We'd get these subways finished easier and with less money if the city stopped wasting so much money on consultants and maintained their own in-house team to do that work. Third-party consultants have no incentive to lower costs or get the project done faster. And the MTA is repeating some downright stupid decisions like overbuilding the new subway stations it's building. I visited one of the Second Avenue Subway stations from stage 1 and I was struck by how much bigger it was than the local stations elsewhere in Manhattan. They were almost as big as the express stations are! Absolute waste of money.
I agree (and I can see you've been reading from the transit costs project, heh heh) but the state and federal governments also have a role to play between having more influence on MTA management (state) and the failure of timely cash aid from the feds
YES THIS WHY IS IT SO DIFFICULT
Thank you
I agree about the wasted funds, but I don’t share your criticism of the built space on the new stations. We need roomier stations - not only are the older stations built when people are shorter and generally thinner, but also we have expectations about having our own little personal space nowadays.And the extra room is welcome for better ventilation and will come in handy for expansion in ridership.
When riding the Q, remember that the stations are being sized for when the train is running from 125th to Lower Manhattan. Moreover, it is designed to help relieve the Lexington Avenue subway, the busiest rail line in the USA.
My mother, who was born in 1936, and grew up on East 21st Street between First and Second Avenues, told me that Mayor LaGuardia told the city that if we dismantle the 2nd Avenue El and give the steel to the war effort (WW II) after the war the Federal government would build the Second Avenue Subway.
Wow that's interesting! Thanks for sharing.
Mayor LaGuardia was not exactly wrong
Lies lol😅
Also keep in mind that this phase 1 is a diminished version of the original plans, which was a 6 track trunk with three branches into The Bronx, and multiple Brooklyn branches
The High Line was a FREIGHT line; part of the New York Central Railroad. It never carried passengers. It was never included in what NYers referred to as the elevated lines (2nd Ave, 3rd Ave, 6th Ave, 9th Ave.).
True and ironically it can be a cheap 10th ave line extension of the L
The Second Avenue subway line was to extend from the Bronx, thru Manhattan, and into Brooklyn. That was the original plan. Btw huge mistake for the city fathers to demolish many of the elevated lines in the city. They went against advice from futurist economists who correctly warned capacity will be reached in the early 1950s. But they weren't done. In the early 1980s, the city and state had plans to demolish the #2 White Plains subway line stretch of El north of 180th St. in the Bronx and sub it with buses. Fortunately, they canceled due to overwhelming residential opposition.
Wow, phase 2 will be finished when I'm 23... how amazing!
Thanks! The second avenue extension has always fascinated me because land values increase dramatically from the public investment but goes into the pockets of the landowners.
Thanks for the Super Thanks! The history of the subway is interesting altogether. But the 2nd Ave is extra compelling. 🤣
Theoretically they should have to pay higher taxes for it and also theoretically there should be enough transit that it shouldn’t be an issue😊
In Los Angeles, a subway down Wilshire Boulevard was first proposed in 1925. A small part opened in 1996, but the full project won't open until 2027. Over 100 years.😮
There were 10 R11 subway cars built in 1949 specifically for the Second Avenue Subway. However, the Second Avenue Subway was canceled, and so were the other 390 cars. The 10 R11's ran along with other B Division equipment of the time and were rebuilt in 1965 (under the R34 contract). However, even with the overhaul, maintenance proved difficult in the 1970s due to needing specific maintenance and components compared to other train classes at the time. Following a yard accident, which totaled car #8016, they were all scrapped between 1977 and 1980. All except for 1 were scrapped, which is car 8013, which ran on the Second Avenue Subway on June 30th, 2017, along with the other Trains Of Many Colors (a train of previous B Division cars), 98 years after the project was conceived, and 68 years after the cars were originally built. #8013 is still preserved to this day (April 8th, 2023).
Originally now the R179s were meant for the SAS
Thank you. Very much appreciated. I didn't know that the 2nd Avenue subway had such a long history! And I didn't know that fact about Al Capone.
A great, very great layout of a century-long, convoluted saga. Thank you for that!
Awesome! Thanks so much for all the great information!!
I really appreciate your channel being a New York City History and subway buff. Thanks for the excellent research and useful information.
Correction, Phase 2 is NOT under construction. If it were, the nycrail subreddit would've blown up with posts about it, I would know. Construction was even supposed to start last year but that got delayed of course. I'm not even sure when it is supposed to begin but I do know they are still acquiring properties along the alignment and funding for the extension.
Great video btw!
The MTA announced,not long ago,with great fanfare they'd secured funding for the 96-125th Street extension...environmental study. Wowzers!
Was always curious about this! Thanks for the thorough breakdown!
They should of left the 8 Thrid Avenue Elevated line alone instead of tairing it down . They definitely should of starting it to rebuild the Thrid Avenue Elevated line instead of the second Ave subway line.
I believe a big issue with the MTA is that the people who manage it, do not ride it.
Thank god, they didn't listen to Robert Moses.
Would be better to extend the line to The Bronx, instead of 125th street
Robert mosses and the Manager LaGuardia is no longer on this earth anymore. Let's bring this Thrid Avenue Elevated line were it was. Here is the second Ave subway being extended to 125 street Lexington Avenue. Phases 5 there was a real serious talk on the News about running west side 125 and the 137 street connecting to the Broadway 1. They minds well better bring the 8 Thrid Avenue Elevated line then. South Bronx Clearmount Webster Ave Bronx is definitely suffering without the Third Ave Elevated line. It doesn't make sense of sending the Q T trains to the south Bronx to connect to the 6 trains At 138 street 3rd Ave and then 149th street 3rd Ave Bronx connecting to the 2 5 trains. The Q T trains has the map that shows you a curve 🪝 turning west side 125 street and then 137 street to connect to the 1 Broadway line. That shows you that they are definitely making enough room for the 8 Thrid Avenue Elevated line to come back to the booky down south Bronx Clearmount Webster Ave Bronx. I'm just letting you know that now.
@leecornwell5632 It's third avenue, not thrid avenue.
My Dad remembers a broker trying to sell his dad on a place using the “coming soon” Second Avenue Subway in the 1970s…
Lol, that's funny.
One factor that is often overlooked is that The City has transformed dramatically since the days of the 3rd Avenue El. Today, far more people not only live in the boroughs than Manhattan, but they also go to school and work there, too. Of course, the 2nd Avenue subway will help re-vitalize the Bronx. However, a lot of people going between the Bronx, Queens and/or Brooklyn are still being forced to ride through Manhattan because the system is still focused on bringing people in and out of Manhattan.
Hi! My family just returned from our first trip to NYC (Manhattan). We watched a lot of your videos on what to do, see, and how to navigate by using the subway and busses. Your content made all of the difference! Thanks a lot!! Can't wait to go back for a longer visit next time!
That's awesome! Glad I could help you out.
Hi. Im from Australia at the moment im with my family in New York city. Your channel has allowed me to navigate the subway system and bus system with Ease. Thank you very much. I have been in New York for nearly a week and flying back this week. I learnt a lot watching your videos for the past two months . Once again thank you very much, your subscriber from Adelaide, Australia.
Thanks for sharing! It's always great to hear when I'm able to help someone out with public transit. I hope you have a pleasant trip back, cheers!
Another great video
You probably know this if you read The Power Broker, but the irony of Robert Moses was that he never learned how to drive a car.
Well that's hilarious
Wow the art behind you are the colors of the subway lines
Excellent video. Thanks.
I never thought I’d see a “T” train.
Awesome info as always. 👍🏻☺️
I lived in the Lower East Side for several years. I always wondered when this project will be complete. I fear that I will no longer be around when it finally is complete (if it ever is completed). Thanks for the very informative video.
great video! super informative
another great video!
When riding the Q, remember that the stations are being sized for when the train is running from 125th to Lower Manhattan. Moreover, it is designed to help relieve the Lexington Avenue subway, the busiest rail line in the USA.
Nice history.👍🌹🌹
I rode this line the last time I was in New York or maybe the time before that, I think to/from 86th Street. Had no idea it had such a history. ¡Thank you!
Thank you
Two years ago, I wrote a thesis about incorporating an extension of the SAS along 125th Street as part of phase 2.
I'm still trying to get it published.
In the late 1960's plan, the then newly formed MTA's Plan For Action envisioned the Second Avenue subway as a part of a whole subway renovation plan that included the Queens Super-Express, the 63rd Street Tunnel, connections to the N-Q-R-W Lines north of 57th Street, and the B-D-F-M north of 57th Street, the Archer Avenue segment in southern eastern Queens, and further extensions into southern eastern Queens using both the J-line, and what is now used by the E-train. New York City's Comprehensive 1968 City Master Plan (a set of very large square books found in major NYC libraries at the time) details all of this - as well the origins of the "Access To The Eastside" LIRR expansion we now call "Grand Central Madison." A lot of the transit plans related to the Second Avenue and its related components extend from these earlier plans. I just wish you had shown how all of this was connected. In any case this was a very good video.
Great job with history. Hopefully it gets done. If you want to see 3rd Ave El train watch the movie the lost weekend filmed in the 40s along 3rd ave
**Pork** in the municipal game is how big pockets get lined, quietly. Any project that extends this long is clearly a pork racket. Another aspect is the segregation/mitigation of traffic/access to posh area's imo
Check the proposed 2nd Ave line(1934)
It went into the Bronx east of the 6 train
The highline only carried freight, no passengers.
When I take the Q downtown from 86 St, there's a spot below the 72nd Street station just before the track curves right towards the 63 Street station where the tunnel widens out; there's a graffitied concrete wall on the left that will someday be demolished for a new track that will spur off the existing one and head south down 2nd Avenue -- Phase 3, which I suspect won't even start being built until *way* after I depart the scene
Very nice video and a very coherent history up to the 1970s. Nicely done and your photos and videos illuminate your points well. However, after that you got some sequences wrong: the LIRR's East Side Access and Third Track Project, along with the double-tracking of Ronkonkoma, was only begun after the MTA Board had put both the Second Avenue Subway project on the Capital Plan together; the bond issue that passed provided the state's seed funding for both projects. Ronkonkoma's double-tracking was finished in 2016; phase 1 of the Second Avenue Subway Project was completed in 2017. The Second Av Subway's first phase was not deferred due to the LIRR's expansion, although Phase 2 may have been delayed. You correctly mention the Bond Act but you didn't mention key actors in New York City. In the late 90s, Manhattan Borough President C. Virginia Fields established a Second Av Subway Task Force. The Straphangers' Campaign's Gene Russianoff and I served on the Task Force, which also included elected officials and other members of the public. . It was the Task Force that persuaded the MTA Board to approve Phase 1 of the SAS and also worked to get voters to pass the bond issue that funded it. As to the WestWay, while the Westway's construction plan, though well intentioned, may have been very disruptive, the Big Dig in Boston, completed in 2006, essentially the West Way Highway in Boston, was a resounding success. It reduced pollution and resulted in a gorgeous emerald trail of islands along the Charles River. It took additional years, but the MBTA Green Line was extended north and included new and reconstructed ADA compliant stations. Another factual error: Phase 2 is not merely intended to connect to the 4,5,6, although this is a good benefit. Phase 2 connects to Metro-North, because the MTA wanted to give domestic workers (maids, personal cooks, baby sitters) a convenient "reverse commute" to wealthy employers in Westchester County. Phase 2 is NOT under construction. It is in the preliminary engineering phase, and MTA has been buying (through negotiation or eminent domain) mostly boarded up rowhouses and some occupied dwellings along the planned line. These will be demolished to make way for ventilation plants and subway station entrances. Notice to Proceed has NOT been given to construction contractors.
We had the 3rd Avenue El which was longer and had express service and it cost nothing to build, having been paid for by private transit companies a century ago. We should have kept it until the 2nd Avenue Line was completed. But the city (and greedy real estate investors) couldn't wait to tear it down, in 1955. Dumb, dumb dumb!
Along with the phases they are planning on bringing a new line called the T running from 125th - Hanover Square and the extension from 96 - 125 is using existing tunnels way back
Can you make a video explaining the fulton center station? I keep getting confused everytime I go there, especially when returning on some trains. (Like J + Z go to the fulton center, but I haven't found an indoor way to get to the oculus/path)
Even natives get confused on that thing, but when you figure it out it’s like a cheat code lol
Big tip is the Uptown J/Z goes through the 4/5 section to get to the other trains. Remember that and it becomes much easier. Same with the Downtown but that’s even more of a maze if I’m being entirely honest.
I know that it is the current trend to edit out all pauses in the voice over. The purpose is to eliminate mistakes and pauses that are inappropriate or too long. In doing so, it makes reading a dense text robotic and tedious. You might as well use a text to speech reader.
Including pauses for dramatic effect and emphasis improves the value in what you have to say.
I mean, “What's the rush?” It is your opportunity to add humanity to your work...
This just proves, when trying to get things done in the public arena, it's always something. It also seems very unlucky. 😑
The funny thing is it’s not actually true that elevated trains lower the property value to any significant degree (we know this because of property values where the lines are still elevated), but what will destroy the property value is not having access to public transit for decades. I’m also not sure if it’s true that elevated lines have lower capacity these days.
Doesn't the 358 days include the 11 months? I believe you mean 87 years, 11 months, and 24 (or so) days? Anyway, great and informative video overall :)
It almost feels like NYC is unlucky whenever it comes to constructing lines. It’s like before or when they can even get started there’s always something in the way of it. 🤦🏽♂️🙄😤
It was called the Westway, not West Way Highway. Also,phase 2 of the Second Ave Subway s not under construction yet.
Sorry I missed this earlier. We can no longer blame Robert Moses. Only 11 stations and a few kilometers of subway have been built since the famous biography about him The Power Broker was written in 1974, Look at Queenslink, for example, the Mayor does not support it.
100 years from now, they will still be building the Second Avenue subway.
We can thank Robert Moses for the fact of no subway to LaGuardia. Great book about him "The Power Broker".
There's no direct subway connection to JFK either. Instead there's an "Airtrain" you have to *transfer onto* at Jamaica from either the LIRR or the "E" subway line. (Original price was $5, just went up to $8.50. Absolutely no seating at the Airtrain station...plus *lots* of signs forbidding people from sitting on the floor - welcome to NYC!
I detest the 2nd ave line because it brought back the W, but rather than just letting the W be the Manhattan train it made the Q worse, so now the Q no longer runs to Astoria.
there were elevated trains on 2nd ave
I know this is 3 months ago. But the second phase didn’t start yet. Won’t start til the end of this year and won’t be finished until 2030. But I won’t hold my breath for that either
Well... I'll be attentive to the news of the start of construction of the following phases to make forecasts for the next market crash 😅
The Q will serve the phase 1 and 2 stations, but when the line is extended south in phases 3 and 4, I would think they’d establish the new T line. As for what would happen to the Q, it may terminate at 57th and Broadway like it used to…or perhaps be used as it is now but only during rush hours in the peak direction to alleviate congestion on T trains.
Let’s be real the T will not happen
my apologies, but there's a B Line on the East Side. i take to & from when visiting AMC of Lincoln Square.
Any reason why there isn't a plan to extend 1 extra stop to terminate at Whitehall Street/South Ferry?
1 already goes there
@@qjtvaddict 1 extra stop, not the 1. I'm talking about extending the 2nd Avenue subway to South Ferry.
The second ave subway triggers market crashes lol
I'm in my late 50's now. By the time they finish Phase 3, I'd probably be 6 feet under. But at least I survive to see Phase 1 finished.
I will be pushing up daisies for years once they ever open the Inter bough Express
I hope you didn't spend too much time researching this one ... because it shows. 🤠
I wonder if all the els can be rebuilt to higher standards
In all fairness some of the Els like the 6th avenue line were replaced by subways, the northern section of the 9th avenue el with the exception of the polo grounds connection was unofficially replaced by the subway as the CPW And B’way-7th avenue. The big mishap most people revere is the 3rd avenue el because it still served so many people even on its last day of ridership. The unfortunate circumstance of the El was that its was deteriorated and didn’t accommodate for larger capacity such as ten car trains which would weigh down more on the structure. Trains on Els were much shorter and ran at slower speeds. Technically if the city had the funds for the subway or repair we wouldn’t be in this conundrum, however if nothing was done in general for structure in such condition it would’ve seen abandonment which would’ve casted blight on the surrounding neighborhood. Technically the Bx41 is literally just a rebranded bx55 with the exception that it only runs on Webster ave while the bx15 and 15ltd run on 3rd avenue. There’s a million other Els we can make a case for but in the end public transit is at the whim of the city and unless if some magic billionaire comes with the funds and gets all the tax breaks on earth literally all we can do is sit and wait for the bureaucratic nature of corruption, embezzlement and mismanagement to unfold.
sounds like you have some german planners there who still used to german planning tempo...
What's the German planning tempo?
@@UrbanCaffeine best example would be BER Berlin's new Airport, started construction 2006, scheduled open 2011, real opening end 2020... and a lot hustle with politicians
The comment about elevated trains do not carry as many people as a subway is very wrong. In fact in the other boroughs the trains run on elevated tracks before they enter Manhattan and use the subway tracks.They are the exact same length and the same train. .
The high line wasn’t an elevated line. It was an elevated railroad.
thea know a lot about new york city , its upsides and downsides , so i think Thea should run for NYC Mayor in next elections
I’ll be dead when they finish phase 3.
It’s call the west side highway
Do you think they would ever consider extending the 2nd ave line west at 125th st? As a crosstown option above central park? I think this would be more useful than another subway line going south to Houston
FYI, "soot" rhymes with "foot".
Funny enough, Robert Moses never learned how to drive
I still have my opening day commemorative subway map from phase 1. In the corner is a nice big printed on signature labelled "Andrew Cuomo (Governor)". Aged like milk.
They just could from downtown wtc to midtown
i bee dead by phase 4 i am 36
Take the T train to The Bronx
Why’s there’s 2030
COME UP FOR AIR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
SAS lore
SaS definitely needs to bring the Thrid Avenue Elevated iRT elevated line back. No ifs and buts about that. Another thing to south Bronx Clearmount Webster Ave Bronx is definitely starting to developing again. South Bronx Clearmount Webster Ave Bronx is not beat down anymore I tell you that now.
The l is not a steam train
you said 2 cenutrires to phase three that will be the 2040s climate change and air pollouton could be alot worse by then
Miss Thing,
The High Line was a New York Central freight line.
It wasn't an "L".
Miss Thing,
Robert Moses was a genius!
Money for endless wars… no money for infrastructure. I don’t care how much it cost. Stop spending money on military and spend on OUR HOME-FRONT NEEDS.
You are so right. It is unbelievable that our military spending after the Cold War INCREASED rather than decrease. No money for healthcare, social services and infrastructure. Only in America.
Thank you, someone gets it.
Ah yes; funding for the 2nd Ave subway the best indicator of an incoming recession.
"By 1929 we were off to work!"
Me: uh oh, here it comes
Don’t disrespect Robert Moses please
He did nothing for public transit..he should be disrespected.
@@tsnowice12I 💯% agree with you.
Admittedly an informative video. But history shows that this has all been largely a waste of money and resources. NYC could easily have used two car double decker buses like those in London and Beijing. This would operate just as efficiently at a significantly lower cost to construct. And you wouldn't have to wait 87 years for it to come into place as this could have been constructed virtually over night. But who ever listens to any of those ideas?
London and Beijing are building new Subway lines because buses don't work,they sit intraffic.
Overbuilding should be banned