Negative crankcase pressure - Dyno tested - Gold 4age
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 ต.ค. 2024
- Connecting a vacuum to lower crankcase pressure
engine spec:
Smallport head with mid work
kelford 193b cams
toda valve springs
Redtop bigport block with 10.3:1 smallport pistons
Toda 3.7kg flywheel
Garage 4age Header and 3" exhaust.
Link G4 ecu
extra leaky valve stem seals
47mm itb long runner.
Help me make more vids, grab some merch: teespring.com/stores/garage4age
Insta : @garage4age
@Garage 4age - ยานยนต์และพาหนะ
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Noting really to do directly with content in this video. But its another good example of how easily dyno results can be wrong/ manipulated. The baseline run in this video was done with engine and oil temps the same as all other runs. 95c oil. 80 water temp. but produced less power than the identical setup at end of video. why? I didn't run the car very long before the initial run. so things like gearbox and diff oil would have been still fairly cold. The end "new baseline" directly overlays from the last time i ran the car up a week ago. So dyno is accurate in those regards
Can you do the vaccum test on the hilux?
Bit weird but get an really mini fridge like tiny cut the door off and ya it for intake biz over your trumpets for cold air?
Nice, that's really good test methodology. Always question the results and double-check when the Gods of Experiments allow us.
Would this work for turbodiesel engines? Thanks
Problem with running dynos in this fashion is that readings are what are called "flash" readings and have nothing what so ever to do with the real world. You can get great flash readings but at the end of a long straight, where engine temps, piston crown and intake temps climb (more so with replacement aluminum cold air intakes LOL), horsepower goes down and charge density and detonation occur. So something that looks good in a flash reading could actually contribute to loss of power given more time. Want realistic HP readings, run on dyno for a minute or so. Look into what factory teams do with computer data. They will torture an engine using telemetry from on board sensors replicating actual track/engine running conditions.
0.1psi crankcase pressure at 7000rpm+ . not bad for a 300k block with a dingleberry hone, complete with vertical scores. 200k+ ? 2nd hand rings and pistons, all from different engines !
Bloody oath! Late 80's early 90's toyota engines are the best!
and 3k kms engine from my soviet shitbox will probably fall apart once it sees 5000rpm and makes 75bhp.
Do you think windage tray could reduce oil misting by itself so efficiently that there is no noticeable gain using vacuum? If this engine does not have it what do you think would change if it was installed? btw great channel
@@23justbob This engine has the factory windage tray. Pretty hard to say how much benefit it has. I think there are plenty of factors why you may see gains or not. In this engines case, it has adequate breather for the condition its in. and the vac applied here is on the low end of what some people run. plus being a small engine theres a lot less going on down there than a big v8 or the likes. So what little if any change happened was un-measurable. Maybe a big engine with big ring gaps and some boost, or some tired old junk. along with in inadequate breather system, be it the vents on engine cover or the actual internal vents in engine being to small. applying some vac may show measurable numbers. In your average setup i'd go with not worth adding complexity and weight for what little benefit there maybe
That's crazy lol. I would have guessed it was built recently with new rings
Next video: Homemade Dry sump - Dyno tested - Gold 4age XD
Just leave the vacuum on for awhile longer. job done.
@@Garage4age You, as capable and willing to experiment guy, You should really think about making DIY dry sump.
I wish i had Your skills.
Should do a homemade dry sump but why dyno test it?
@@youwantshum9860
Just to see it explode.
:)
@@jareknowak8712 a dry sump isn't going to explode lol. A dry sump only prevents starvation doesn't add any power whatsoever 😂
I installed a van type vacuum pump on a 1972 Alfa Romeo 2.0 engine in the place of the stock Spica mechanical fuel injection pump. I converted the car to EFI. It ripped out the front crank seal initially. I then placed a vacuum gage on a spare oil cap and installed a filtered air bleed in the crank case. I regulated the vacuum to -12 psi. The added power was dramatic with seat of the pants dyno. I regularly add full cylinder head Back exhausts , ported heads, high compression pistons and camshafts to these engines. The stock Spica Injection is ITB. The power of this completely stock tired engine with only the vacuum pump, ITB efi, and full exhaust was similar. How much was the vacuum pump and how much the EFI I cannot say. But I am running the same air fuel and timing at full throttle with the Spica and the EFI.
I've read engineering studies of this before.. (I like your vids btw, and raced a AE86 for 25 years).... Negative pressure does produce more power. run the valve cover vent through a check valve to the header and if you have it in the right spot will pull a nice vacuum. I was tempted to do, but never did.
What was the mechanism for producing more power?
@@alanhillyard1639 This is how dry sump oiling systems add horsepower. They reduce the parasitic pumping losses in the crankcase. However, you can't use the breather hose in the valve cover to do this, the crankcase needs to be sealed off.
Your like the "master splinter" of 4age 👌
My favorite series i click you videos right away, love the tests i constantly think of your videos when working on my civic to try and get the best NA numbers haha. Keepem comin!!
Can you test the improvements from increasing the compression ratio on this na motor?
*With ceramic pistons!
Those headers are sick
Used a crankcase evacuation system on my Ducati BOTT bike. Simply a check valve from a Chevy plumbed into divergent cone of exhaust. I had cut a 45 degree angle on pipe entering the cone, but the angle was open to the engine to use the return wave from the convergent cone. I wanted the weaker pulse rather than the stronger positive pulse as I didn't want to draw oil out of crankcase even though I had a large vapor/oil separator. The engine would go into negative pressure at 2,000 rpm. But the power increase that a crank evac system will bring has more to do with proper piston and ring selection. Because the pressure differential across the rings is greater with negative pressure, builder can use lighter tension rings which reduce the frictional drag. Also, you can use only one compression ring and one low tension oil control ring because with more pressure differential, rings work better. Also keeping ring side clearance at absolute minimum will stop ring floating because of inertia. Once this happens, ring collapses and no longer seals. Crank vacuum helps hold ring onto land at TDC to help prevent this.
Not sure who came up with this idea, but I'm glad you did a second baseline run.
some guy on the internet. yeah have ran this setup and dyno enough to have an idea when its telling me lies
Very interesting. I think the benefits show up more on low tension, drag like ring packs, however I do no know offhand how much the belt driven vacuum pumps they use make in terms of vacuum and Im sure the size of the engine will skew it one way or another. I am quite surprised its absolutely nill on yours.
Would love to see this on the turbo 4age as well and see what crankcase pressure it has before and after.
You probably won't see many gains until you pull more vacuum, of the big drag motors with dry sumps I have played with we usually shoot for 16 inches of mercury in vacuum, which I think is around 8 psi, this is generally considered the safe limit before you start turning seals inside out, but I found that you really, really have to try to seal a big block to get that much vacuum. there are definitely gains to be made, but it really is 10/10ths stuff. Keep up the great videos mate.
Would have been nice to try some more vac. but yeah dont think its worth doing on your average street engine
Thought about knife edging a crank and polishing the rods while you're there for a before and after, I think knife edging probably won't be as effective these days because we use thinner oils than the olds school stuff.
Knife edging does nothing. Inside the crankcase on a running engine is more chaotic than you could ever imagine. You have turbulence and oil being flung in every direction you can think of. The crank is getting hit with oil from everywhere, front, back, left, right, diagonally and everything in between.
Shit where's all my oil gone!?
Vacuum 👀
I had terrible oil burning issue on my 4.6l 2v turbo motor due to the turbo drains running almost horizontal. I ran a check valve to my crank case from my intake manifold. It would suck the oil from the turbo drains and stopped my burning issue. Not the proper fix but it did work.
Best Videos on YT :) (Y) i love your Dyno "Mod" Comparison Vids
Thumbs up
Instal a tube at a 45 degree angle in your collector. Run a hose up to your oil air separator. Between the separator and exhaust instal a one way air pump check valve. This will generate a real vacuum. For a true power gain. I would love to see actual gain and at what vacuum.
You need at least -12 psi. Try installing a pan-o-vac system in the exhaust collector with an oil air separator. You should be able to achieve a much higher vacuum. It will make power. You will need a very effective oil/air separator with a drain back tube. To effectively create power you must remove the resistance of the air from the back side of the pistons. The rapid back and forth air movement is a high source of friction, combined with oil flying everywhere. The air is pulling and pushing on the pistons with great force at high rpm. Removing this air in combination with better ring sealing will add significant power. It would be interesting to see how much on a small displacement engine.
Interesting video. I’ve often wondered about fitting a vacuum pipe to the oil catch can and to see what results if any that achieved.
I know this is an old video. I had to chime in on this one .. Vacuum pumps are used mainly this day in drag cars and or where you are running super low tension piston rings (you guys get the point). your test does not indicate your piston ring setup.
Wow, effectively no gains with -2PSI? I feel like vacuum pumps are run in some big money drag racing. Those guys are often fighting for a couple tenths of a second, hard to believe they would be running the parasitic loss of a vacuum pump (that's not plugged into the wall), while not seeing in gains and just not notice. Maybe this is a function of large ring gaps for power adders vs a tight NA motor?
They do it through a sealed crankcase and with much higher vacuum, up to 1 bar.
I have a 4e-fe with DIY turbo kit. After seeing this I will be using a sump return on my catch can. I don't want to empty my engine of the 3.5 l of oil. Moreover, the drain will also directly ventilate the sump while not relying on the valve cover vents.
God damn i'd love to have my own dyno at home! Could play around with the twincharger all night trying different shite. Good video. How about a crankcase vacuum on a boosted 4ag?
I'm sorry but I just wont believe this. Negative crankcase pressure will reduce the density of air in the crankcase, and thus reduce the aerodynamic drag in the crankcase.
Maybe the 4AGE just has a good design for the rotating assembly in the terms of aerodynamics, or maybe the reduced VE from higher compression leaks reduce the torque as much as is gained from the lowered pressure, idk.
Huh interesting. I would have thought the negative crank case preasure would increase the high torque at least a tiny bit. But I guess this engine doesn't have much blow by
Because the tolerances are tight on this Toyota NA motor. These things go to 400k miles and still have minimal blow by when cared after. But for us turbo people we have to run way larger tolerances and blowby becomes a huge issue.
Try 15" of vacuum
Try an engine with more blow by. This old, low compression girl ain’t convincing me yet.
My first impression was "Wow, not much blow-by".
Was discussing this with my mates just last week...
Was there AFR differences with the vacuum applied ?
No difference
I’m curious as to what it would be if you were to have +1psi added to the crankcase
I think most dry sump setups run about -4psi (8 inches of Mercury). Tee in an extra vac or two 😂
8 is the standard beginning point.
Also it is more impactful on high compression large bore engines.
People running drift cars learned it doesn’t help small engines at all until into highly boosted applications.
loving the content, keep it up
I say do it again but closer to a perfect vacuum.
Are you measuring the crankcase pressure with just a regular MAP sensor?
I wonder what the result would have been on a bigger engine or with turbo and more blow by with looser ring gaps.
This test was useless. To see gains, the vac needs to be at least 10 ,20 is better. That small engine still wouldnt see very much gain.
Henry Hoover had no idea what he would be snorting this day
Shows your rings are in great condition!
could you do this on a boosted motor, please!!?? @garage 4age
missed an opportunity to block all breathers and test the negative impact of positive crankcase pressure, probably more noticable on your boosted engine. You were kinda solving a problem that wasn't there given that even the factory pcv had crank case pressure at 0.1 psi
I don't think there would be much difference on the turbo engine, not in my case anyway. ignoring complex math, even if the cylinder pressure was double. that's maybe .2psi. seems to me is any significant crankcase pressure means your engine is on its last legs. Even though this engine is made from junk, would rather not risk spitting oil seals by blocking breathers. oil going onto hot exhausts isn't much fun.
@@Garage4age I don't think it's quite as linear as double cylinder pressure = double crank pressure. More like engine can evacuate say 5cfm of air thru breather, 6 cfm is getting past rings = 1cfm is in engine. Then once turbo, engine still evacuates 5 cfm of air but 12 cfm is going past rings so now crank pressure is rising by 7cfm.
Anyway you're much more knowledgeable on the subject than me, simply my food for though whether it's wrong or right. Really enjoyed the vid and got me thinking about the subject a lot more.
@Wayde Morris Yeah why i said ignoring complex math, because dont want to attempt to calculate it haha. my example was pretty bad. Either way it pays to up the breather size if running a turbo on a engine that is originally na. which in the case of my turbo engine, i run 2 factory breathers apposed to the normal single one seen on engine in this vid. I just whacked an old vacuum on the oil breather because some guy on the internet asked me to. but i think what we can take away from it, is that long as breathers are adequate and engine isn't stuffed. no need to do anything fancy unless scrapping for that last little bit
what a waste of bandwith and 5 minutes of time.
I think you need to have a lot more vacuum. I think it’s to have less air in the crankcase so that the oil fall down faster away from the rotating assembly
Yeah was the max could get out of junker vacuum. else would have tired more
I wonder what a big ring gap big cube LS would be like
How about a leaf blower supercharger XDDD
i used a 98 cobra smog pump to pull a constant 2-3" of vacuum into a catch can and the car definitely liked it, I wonder if getting it up to 10-15" if I'd see real power gains
Could you test that with turbo setup? Keep up the good job
Haha, thanks for this!
no load,the pressure will be much lower
neg crankcase pressure really only benefits high displacement high rpm engines, and needs to be around 12-15Hg. Any lower no point, any higher get oiling issues. Neg pressure promotes better ring seal to produce more power
I have done several engines with proper dry sump and with the oil pump/vacuum pump connected to the crank, it increases the efficiency with rpm. I saw several engines making 15-22hp more than conventional oil sump. One thing that is very important is the closed head cover, you need to block every intake of air in the engine, and let the vacuum system pull the entire air only. It will seals the piston rings a lot better and making more power. Also you need to pull vacuum from the bottom not the head. Applying vacuum with out removing the stock oil pump it’s useless as you well tested. 👍
Would it not prevent pressure build up. Like in my turbo engine I've got my tappet cover venting to att. Surely having vac would be better
Hi, your videos are awsome! appreciate your effort doing the dyno test to show the truth of many myths!, i wonder if you could helpe cheking my vvt map on my 2zz ge toyota?
Yeah this is something that would have been worthwhile if you were running a turbo and say, 3 bar of boost? Would have shown it’s benefits on a setup making triple the power, but neat experiment nonetheless
Most multicylinder engines would balance out the pressure . You shoukd sample a single crankpin twin like a Harley or Ducati .
idk if the comparison is try to draw limes to that of a dry sump vacuum, but i think the dry sump power gain is the fact the oils scavenged out and evacuated from the block so the rotating assembly is not hitting oil but then im left asking whats the power loss from the parasitic drag of a dry pump setup to not only have a negative crankcase pressure but evaluate gains of not having the oil hitting the rotating assembly
I want to make an exhaust siphon to lower or go negative on my Lycoming aircraft engine. Mainly to reduce oil leaks on what should be called a Leakcoming engine.
Damn nice header !
Did you ever do Oil testing? Engine Masters here in the U.S. did an episode. Thicker oil resulted in power gains on some engines due to ring seal. m.th-cam.com/video/DWblUriIwhg/w-d-xo.html&pp=ygUSRW5naW5lIG1hc3RlcnMgb2ls
See if you can get Nulon or some other high performance "Boutique" racing oil donated by the blender in different weights, but make sure you ask for high concentration of Tri-nuclear MoDtc, & Zddp combo in the oil blend. You might be surprised at the gains...... 🏁🏁🏁
Also, try a dyno run after the oil change, then again in 100km as it takes time for the MoDtc (Moly) to build a synergistic layer with zinc as a anti-friction coating.
MoDtc is the best Moly vs. the numero forms of Moly used in many oils & Additives like MsO2 which is a inferior form of Moly.
Attach it to exhaust now
I Like your Videos! I have an Idea. A video with different fuel types and octane Numbers. Like in Germany wenn have Aral ultimate 102 octane and Low one with 95.
The main point with running vacum in the crankcase is the use of way weaker oil control rings, right?
Vacuum is measured in inches not psi. With correct baffling in the cover you would have no oil. With A belt driven evacuation system like an aero space industries or Moroso you would get over 10” on the little engine maybe 15” as I get 9” on an inline 6 and over a 5%gain in hp. A very poor test …
As stated in the video, people asked me to put a vacuum on the breather... you can measure pressure In other things that inhg. if anything it should be in kpa since rest of the dyno is metric system
As piston travels down it needs to suck, when piston travels up it needs to blow 🤣🤣
no any noticable diferences, gain with vacuum in only when piston goes down, what about oil seals that could be destroyed and dirt could get in engine through them
Hi Buddy,
Interesting experiment. I made some testing with negative crankcase pressure on a naturally aspirated 4 cyl water cooled VW, and found out a problem. My objective was to test a closed circuit, meaning that blown-by gasses would be totally recycled and the crankcase would remain at negative pressure at all times. Not so simple as it looks like. It never is. You have to remember that all pressure reduction in the crankcase will reflect directly in the lubrication system pressure, since the oil pump will be sucking oil from a negative pressure level. Be cautious about this when experimenting with negative crankcase pressure. Let´s say you have negative 7 psi in the crankcase at idle, your oil pressure gauge will read also 7 psi LESS. If the engine is not designed or properly prepared to run like this, better let it breath to the atmosphere, even if you have some positive pressure build up with hi revs or load.
That header! Damn
Sell me those headers
good music
Try one with 'heavy' oil such as the engine restore stuff and one light as possible oil ?
Iirc, my 79 celica with the old 18r had a vacuum pump as standard,
Nice starship
I love you.
BOOST!!! Would love too see this test on boost!!!!
Great video mate. Might just install that vent to atmospheric catch can after all. On my race car that is
🤭... lo que aguanta ese motor toyota no tiene nombre... jajajja
Very cool video, I like the real and raw data! ❤️🏆
Brilliant thanks
Hmm. What happens if you pressurize the breather to offset the drop in PCV vacuum at higher throttle angles? Breather being upstream of throttle (atmospheric pressure) and PCV being connected to vacuum of intake manifold. I’d be interested in seeing what happens if you offset the drop in vacuum at WOT with a corresponding increase in breather pressure
pcv might come out the head but wouldn't it be piped down thru to crankcase ?? or this was just a valve cover vent lol.. also not real sure why ppl were comparing this to dry sump
Your content soooo good make me subsribed to your channel instantly… hope you can make a video and dyno test about oil cooler vs no oil cooler in future. Thanks
Not a video specific to oil coolers, but i do I have one on oil temps and effect on power.
What setup are you running ??
Have put engine spec in description
👍👍
Your vacuum cleaner sucks man.
Not hard enough
Your test proves incredible thorough character for truth on an incredibly well designed engine! question: is there a 1gge that could be the 6 cylinder version of the 4age?
I can't rightly remember if 4ag's and 1g's shared anything, I've heard of (but can't confirm) 4age pistons being used on N/A RB20's & and vice versa on boosted 4A-GE's.
Sorta like KA bits in L2x's.
You might gain more on your turbo motor because if the extra blow by
Nice test, waiting for more. Thanks Man.
Seriously ancient vacuum 👏👏
Do a test adding pressure instead please!
Low engine blowby.
Good job.
Next episode - mopping the muffler from inside :)
Yeah looks good considering. I actually found the reason for the smoke today. it has leaky valve stem seals.
Did u do anti reversion devices
This should be more like -10 PSI and preferably measured and/or reported in inHg
Thats all my junker vacuum could give, else would have ran more. psi is what the dyno scales the pressure in. I'd rather see kpa absolute, since is a measurement that actually makes sense
@@Garage4age Yea, I agree. It’s just because the results shown on racing engines for years now has always been in inHg. A proper vacuum pump with a check valve shouldn’t be too expensive used
What was the negative -Hg u test at?
Thanks bro, excellence content..
This is interesting that on the 4age there's no benefit, because I do know some engines do benefit from running vacuum pumps to reduce crankcase pressure, even in NA setups, dyno verified. I wonder if the 4age just doesn't have the same sort of internal design that causes some engines to benefit from negative crankcase pressure.
Some more vac probably help. But since isn't showing any gain at all. I dont think applying more vac is going show any significant gain
@@Garage4age I agree. At least on the 4age they don't benefit from crankcase negative pressure like some engines like bigger v8's do
What is the mechanism for increased power from crankcase vacuum?
@@alanhillyard1639 some engines build up excess crankcase pressure for one reason or another, and adding the vacuum pump helps excavate that pressure so the internal assembly isn't fighting the pressure force inside of the crank case.
maybe it only matters at like 15k rpm
cant hurt to try? 😄
Those headers! :D
put the hilux on
From what I've seen, the difference is made with reduced oil in the sump due to reduced windage. Nick's garage proved 5-7 hp on engine dyno on lower revving V8.
So: dry sump.
Corresponds with the amount of oil you sucked out, ckrank spins in dense oil mist.
Have tired different oil levels (whilst not overfilling or going below low mark) on one of these engines, was no measurable difference. They do have a factory windage tray and less going on down there than a v8. Im sure there maybe something in it with a full dry sump. although not likely worth doing it for that reason alone
Hey buddy, do you have a link to that video?
@@zerotohero7449 several different vids on Nick's garage, chasing 400 hp on mildly tuned Hemi, will have to search for it.
@@Garage4age thanks for that input.
Your videos correspond very closely to what I have observed on racing C20XE's (EU GM/Opel), sometimes they resist any tuning and they seem to be stuck around 75-80% volumetric efficiency at peak power. The most linear power adder being compression ratio, all other tuning being reflected mainly in respect at what RPM you get the max HP. I.e. you can tune the hell out of it, you'll only change the max HP RPM, but won't improve volumetric efficiency at peak HP.
When one of those decides to stay at 200hp it's stuck there. Change whatever you will, you'll only make things worse 🤣 increase compression, add duration and overlap, power band shifts, power goes up, volumetric efficiency stays almost the same. And you tune the intake (and exhaust) not to make power, but not to make even less.
N/A tuning 🤣
Yep na tuning can suck. My first 4age I tried to na tune, i just whacked a big set of cams in it. much bigger than in the engine in this video. wouldn't make more than 105kw. now that seems like a walk in the park. just with the right changes. Ive been "stuck" plenty of times, thrown all sorts at them with no change. then some tiny little thing makes all the difference and blows your mind.
Excellent...data is data and the dyno don't lie. Good to see a proper test done on this, many thanks. That's a healthy blow by rate for that age of engine.
@@fzr400rr100
I’m not sure I would call that a proper test. An old shop vac and no vacuum gauge that I saw.
@@bobirving6052 Hi Bob, I made a negative crankcase system I designed myself back in the day on a race bike I was running at the time, I made it straight after one of 5he MotoGP guys got disqualified for using a vacuume pump to scavenge crankcase pressure. It was initially Gerry rigged so I could test it on back to back runs without stopping for full a comparasion. Although undetectable in track use on the dyno it did show just over 1hp consistently on the dyno when connected. As I said, undetectable in use but when your race engine only has 94geegees another 1 is always welcome so it was fitted permanently. All I can say is I seen it work for myself.
Meh, there is no negative pressure.
Yeah but "86.15653 kpa absolute crankcase" wouldn't make for a good youtube title