i dont mean to be so offtopic but does anybody know of a way to get back into an Instagram account? I somehow lost my login password. I love any tips you can give me.
@Sterling Brett I really appreciate your reply. I got to the site through google and im in the hacking process atm. Looks like it's gonna take quite some time so I will reply here later when my account password hopefully is recovered.
It's been near 2 years since this vid. I sure would be interested in re-reading those same bullets to see what age does to those samples. Thanks for making this vid as it confirmed some of my beliefs and proved me wrong in others. I always thought each subsequent quench would increase hardness (to a point of course) but it kind of makes sense (like you pointed out) the casting -> quench temp differential is much greater than a 'say' toaster oven -> secondary quench. Good vid
@@TATVCanada I get these ideas in my head and they are hard to shake after that. Once that happens I start making assumptions based on a false foundation. This video should set my mind straight. The results do make "sense" once you keep in mind we aren't working with steel and lead doesn't follow the "norm".
This was really GREAT. Without knowing the actual alloy of your cast, none of ours can accept the same results. I'm going out on a limb saying the cast composition will change all these results. Just knowing the makeup of the lead used would be a big help. Lead %, Antimony %, tin %, Arsenic %. I'm also guessing the coating process will be different for an all lead bullet vs one that is 92% lead, 6%, antimony, 2% tin. I've watched loads of coating vids, and some powders and processes seem to work really good, but not others. Why? Lastly, if those bullets sat for 6 months or a year before reloading them, how has each hardness changed. I've been told bullets can loose their hardness over time. Cheers
Excellent video. I had been wondering about this. I was a bit shocked to find that after powder coating some 240 g 44mag bullets, my bh was only 10.5 with my wheel weight alloy. I thought it was more in the 13-14bh range last time I cast bullets, but before I started powder coating them. It appears I lost a good bit of bh in the oven. I'll have to start quenching them after powder coating now for sure. It looks like it helps separate them as well. Thanks for the great info.
I'm afraid I don't know of any powder coating suppliers who ship outside of North America. I think most of the Americans buy from Harbor Freight (for the cheap stuff) or Eastwood. I know Eastwood only ships to Canada/US, I don't think HF ships international at all.
You and me both; shipping will eat you alive in this country. I have purchased from Emerald Coatings in the past-- If you purchase a couple lbs it's not too bad.
These are "standard wheel-weight alloy", which is a bit of an oxymoron. Premixed alloys are not available to me where I live, so I use either pure lead, or wheel-weights. As the mix of wheel-weights is impossible to guess, I can't really say for sure.
Your point is? That whatever I am trying to hit with whatever bullet probably won't care if I water quench or air cool. You did a great job withe the video.
Glad to hear you enjoyed it; It's something I've been wondering about for the better part of a year. With the surge in PC'ing interest I feel it's a topic worth exploring. If you do decide to do your own testing I'd be very interested to hear the results.
I'm afraid as it's just made from collected wheel weights I can't really offer you a specific breakdown as I have no way to test. With that said, the 3rd edition of Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook states that the 'average' composition of lead wheel weights is 95.5% Lead, 4.5% Antimony and 0.5% Tin. This is what I've always gone by for *rough* estimations but I want to stress that I would never represent my alloy (or anyone elses) as being 95.5:4.5:0.5 in anything other than theory.
Yes indeed I do. I don't have an exact measurement for you, but I use a file to flatten out a small area on the bullet (as per Lee's instructions). This serves to eliminate the coating as a potential variable.
I always knew PC bullets would soften somewhat if they were quenched beforehand as the time and temperature to cure the PC changes the original grain structure of the Lead. I'm curious if over time the bullet will regain it's original hardness through age hardening once requenched say after a couple weeks?
I'm not sure myself, however I've kept and labeled all the various test bullets in case I wanted to revisit the experiment again at a later date. I've already got some testing planned for one, three and six months as well as a year for quenched vs air-cooled. Presumably these would be similar.
This is interesting. I may have to start quenching after the powder coating process. I just picked up some powder from Powder By The pound and it says it only needs 10 min for the powder to cure. I wonder if this information is available in a PDF or some format that could be printed out and put in my reloading manual?? Thank You for a GREAT video!
Thanks for the feedback, Barn Dweller, I really appreciate it. Regarding the powder cure times, they seem to vary somewhat by manufacturer. The best PC'd bullets I've ever seen were done by Timothy Robinson. He's got a channel on here as well where he's spent quite a while delving into some of the more detailed in's and out's and may have some good information for you, too. th-cam.com/channels/UFqEt2Z51jouY_Kd59r_mA.html
Up till recently I have powder coated let air cool then went back and heat-treated at like 450 for half an hour and dropped in water quench ice water but sometimes I lose my powder coat and have decided not to do that anymore
I don't have nearly as much PC'ing experience as folks like LoadsofBacon or FortuneCookie45LC, however I do know there seems to be a wide range of PC formulas on the market. If heat-treating is something you're seriously considering on a go-forward basis, it may be worth experimenting with another brand or two just to see if you get better results.
Honestly I'm not sure. I've wondered that same thing as well as whether using fluids that can be cooled below freezing (such as antifreeze) may impart even more hardness but haven't gotten around to trying any. I have a feeling that the temperature differential between bullets cast from molten lead (somewhere below 621F) and cold water is still far greater than the baked bullets (400F) and ice water. It'd be interesting to test at some point.
It's not so much a 'need' as a 'want'. PC'ing bullets is a fairly recent development in the shooting world (relative to other jacket materials, at least). For casters, it represents a low-cost option for jacketing bullets. Shooters pursuing high speed/pressure loads (magnum or rifle cartridges) can use it as an alternative to ultra-hard lead alloys or more conventional (and expensive) copper-jacketed or plated projectiles. It's also another method you can use to reduce your lead exposure.
I also performed the same test; I'll write my results below. You did not file down a flat section on your bullets before indenting according to the instructions Air cooled (AC): BHN 11 Water Quenched (WC): BHN: 22.7 Powdercoated - WC - AC - BHN 9.8 Powdercoated - WC - WC: BHN 11 Powdercoated - AC - AC: BHN 10.4 All measurements are the average of 12 hardness points in 3 locations of 4 bullets. Overall, if you're going to powder coat the bullets; the hardness will pretty much be the same either air cooling or water quenching the bullets after.
@@Mac2118 The original review/demo of the Lee Lead test kid I did shows it in detail; in most of the subsequent videos where I'm using it you can see it if you look close, but I cut a lot of that out to spare people seeing the same steps repeatedly.
www.lasc.us/heattreat.htm Personally I air cool, bake at the absolute hottest temperature in a toaster oven for about 30-45 minutes, then quench in cold water. Sizing has to be done fast after quenching because you can actually feel the bullets get hard.
I imagine heat treating does work well if you've got a toaster oven that will go high enough. For me, quenching right from the pot seems to consistently do well and just seems more convenient than running a whole other secondary process. What BHN are you getting with your method currently?
I don't actually know. I used to use the lee hardness tester but I found it to be a very inaccurate process, partially because you will get different readings depending on which part of the bullet or ingot you test. The other issue is that age hardening happens over weeks. I could test a sized bullet now, but a week to a month later it will be much harder. The hardness I am getting is good enough for full power handguns and near max rifles including a 50BMG with no gas check.The other issue is that you don't want just hardness, you also need it to deform somewhat to hug the rifling . if it doesnt, the rifling shears the bullets surface leading to leading. Powder coating has kind of made hardness moot. The coat keeps the bullet together so even relatively soft bullets will shoot without leading, the key is more accuracy since if it is soft to where it deforms when loading or by irregular obturation you lose accuracy. This is why I think converting the lee blackout mold to a flat base makes it more precise. The boat tail deforms when firing which causes imprecise shots.
I haven't experienced differences in tests on the same bullet so maybe that's alloy specific? I usually only test the middle portion hoewver when I was first experimenting with the Lee I would test three different points and always saw identical readings. What temp does your toaster oven peak at? If you ever do decide to test your heat-treated bullets, definitely share your results as I'm sure a lot of people would be interested.
My toaster peaks at 450- a little under 500 degrees. I use it outside so it depends partially on the temperature. My alloy is random as I basically use any lead I can get my hands on (usually range scrap with is generally fairly soft). I don't have my hardness kit anymore because I sold it off, but for possible reference, when it gets to max hardness on a 45 or 50 caliber bullet, it is impossible to bullet size on a normal press, you have to use an O press and only with using your full body weight to size it down. 30 caliber bullets are a lot easier, but it is still hard, kind of like sizing mil surplus 7.62x51.
Will take 5 samples above nothing every time. The bigger the deviation between tests the more you need - when all test virtually the same the smaller the sample needs to be.
Great to the point video compared to some with endless waffling. Short and sweet and very well presented. Got answers in 4 min flat. Thanks.
Glad you found it useful. I too can't stand the "15 minutes to say 2 minutes of content" theme on TH-cam...
i dont mean to be so offtopic but does anybody know of a way to get back into an Instagram account?
I somehow lost my login password. I love any tips you can give me.
@Julio Jesse Instablaster =)
@Sterling Brett I really appreciate your reply. I got to the site through google and im in the hacking process atm.
Looks like it's gonna take quite some time so I will reply here later when my account password hopefully is recovered.
@Sterling Brett It worked and I now got access to my account again. I am so happy!
Thanks so much, you saved my ass !
Awesome. Was just thinking about this.
Glad you found it useful.
It's been near 2 years since this vid. I sure would be interested in re-reading those same bullets to see what age does to those samples. Thanks for making this vid as it confirmed some of my beliefs and proved me wrong in others. I always thought each subsequent quench would increase hardness (to a point of course) but it kind of makes sense (like you pointed out) the casting -> quench temp differential is much greater than a 'say' toaster oven -> secondary quench. Good vid
I'll be doing a two-year hardness test eventually, but just using the conventional cast ones.
@@TATVCanada I get these ideas in my head and they are hard to shake after that. Once that happens I start making assumptions based on a false foundation. This video should set my mind straight. The results do make "sense" once you keep in mind we aren't working with steel and lead doesn't follow the "norm".
This was really GREAT. Without knowing the actual alloy of your cast, none of ours can accept the same results. I'm going out on a limb saying the cast composition will change all these results. Just knowing the makeup of the lead used would be a big help. Lead %, Antimony %, tin %, Arsenic %. I'm also guessing the coating process will be different for an all lead bullet vs one that is 92% lead, 6%, antimony, 2% tin. I've watched loads of coating vids, and some powders and processes seem to work really good, but not others. Why? Lastly, if those bullets sat for 6 months or a year before reloading them, how has each hardness changed. I've been told bullets can loose their hardness over time. Cheers
Good information and a well put together video!
Thank you, sir.
Excellent video. I had been wondering about this. I was a bit shocked to find that after powder coating some 240 g 44mag bullets, my bh was only 10.5 with my wheel weight alloy. I thought it was more in the 13-14bh range last time I cast bullets, but before I started powder coating them. It appears I lost a good bit of bh in the oven. I'll have to start quenching them after powder coating now for sure. It looks like it helps separate them as well. Thanks for the great info.
Glad you found it useful.
Do you use some kind of liquid adherent for powder paint to stick to the bullet?
Nope.
Thanks!
No problem!
Could someone tell me a site to buy pownder coating pownder? I am from Brazil and I do not know where to buy it and in Brazil it does not. Thanks
I'm afraid I don't know of any powder coating suppliers who ship outside of North America. I think most of the Americans buy from Harbor Freight (for the cheap stuff) or Eastwood. I know Eastwood only ships to Canada/US, I don't think HF ships international at all.
Thank you, that's no problem. There are companies that do this service to send to Brazil, I just do not think where to buy the product. Thank you.
Where are you finding powder coat in Canada? Shipping is killing the appeal for me here in Ontario.
You and me both; shipping will eat you alive in this country. I have purchased from Emerald Coatings in the past-- If you purchase a couple lbs it's not too bad.
@@TATVCanada kmstools.com from western Canada has powder coating powder with reasonable shipping.
I picked up some at Princess Auto.
What kind of alloy did you use for these bullets?
These are "standard wheel-weight alloy", which is a bit of an oxymoron. Premixed alloys are not available to me where I live, so I use either pure lead, or wheel-weights. As the mix of wheel-weights is impossible to guess, I can't really say for sure.
Dude, this is super valuable information.
Thank you, sir.
Your point is? That whatever I am trying to hit with whatever bullet probably won't care if I water quench or air cool. You did a great job withe the video.
Some people involved in target shooting are very interested/concerned in bullet hardness.
Accuracy is the name of the game. If a soft powder coat does it, then that’s what I use.
This was a very good topic. I might need to explore this as well. 🤔
Glad to hear you enjoyed it; It's something I've been wondering about for the better part of a year. With the surge in PC'ing interest I feel it's a topic worth exploring. If you do decide to do your own testing I'd be very interested to hear the results.
Roy we’re have you been a long time no see glad you stopped by video Tatv Canada did a great job
ahhh, great video man!
What was the alloy
I'm afraid as it's just made from collected wheel weights I can't really offer you a specific breakdown as I have no way to test. With that said, the 3rd edition of Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook states that the 'average' composition of lead wheel weights is 95.5% Lead, 4.5% Antimony and 0.5% Tin.
This is what I've always gone by for *rough* estimations but I want to stress that I would never represent my alloy (or anyone elses) as being 95.5:4.5:0.5 in anything other than theory.
TATV Canada thats what i use too thats great. Thx
Great video!!
Thanks very much.
Great info, just the question I asked on the cast boolits forum.
Thanks John, I appreciate that. CB is a great resource.
I know this is a bit older of a video,.. but did you scratch the coating off to do the test, or do the test with the coating in place?
Yes indeed I do. I don't have an exact measurement for you, but I use a file to flatten out a small area on the bullet (as per Lee's instructions). This serves to eliminate the coating as a potential variable.
But do they lead your barrel?
I always knew PC bullets would soften somewhat if they were quenched beforehand as the time and temperature to cure the PC changes the original grain structure of the Lead. I'm curious if over time the bullet will regain it's original hardness through age hardening once requenched say after a couple weeks?
I'm not sure myself, however I've kept and labeled all the various test bullets in case I wanted to revisit the experiment again at a later date. I've already got some testing planned for one, three and six months as well as a year for quenched vs air-cooled. Presumably these would be similar.
@@TATVCanada Be great to see what they test after 3 weeks
Fantastic vid, THANKS 👍
Thanks very much.
This is interesting. I may have to start quenching after the powder coating process. I just picked up some powder from Powder By The pound and it says it only needs 10 min for the powder to cure. I wonder if this information is available in a PDF or some format that could be printed out and put in my reloading manual??
Thank You for a GREAT video!
Thanks for the feedback, Barn Dweller, I really appreciate it. Regarding the powder cure times, they seem to vary somewhat by manufacturer. The best PC'd bullets I've ever seen were done by Timothy Robinson. He's got a channel on here as well where he's spent quite a while delving into some of the more detailed in's and out's and may have some good information for you, too. th-cam.com/channels/UFqEt2Z51jouY_Kd59r_mA.html
Great information to have .
Up till recently I have powder coated let air cool then went back and heat-treated at like 450 for half an hour and dropped in water quench ice water but sometimes I lose my powder coat and have decided not to do that anymore
I don't have nearly as much PC'ing experience as folks like LoadsofBacon or FortuneCookie45LC, however I do know there seems to be a wide range of PC formulas on the market. If heat-treating is something you're seriously considering on a go-forward basis, it may be worth experimenting with another brand or two just to see if you get better results.
very useful information. Thank you.
Glad you found it useful!
Great vid!
Would ice water quenching make up the 15% difference?
Honestly I'm not sure. I've wondered that same thing as well as whether using fluids that can be cooled below freezing (such as antifreeze) may impart even more hardness but haven't gotten around to trying any. I have a feeling that the temperature differential between bullets cast from molten lead (somewhere below 621F) and cold water is still far greater than the baked bullets (400F) and ice water. It'd be interesting to test at some point.
Great video this why I alway water quench my lead bullets before powder coating and after Powder Coating I I like hard bullets
Glad you found it useful. I too, insist on quenching.
Why do you need to powder coat at all?
It's not so much a 'need' as a 'want'. PC'ing bullets is a fairly recent development in the shooting world (relative to other jacket materials, at least). For casters, it represents a low-cost option for jacketing bullets. Shooters pursuing high speed/pressure loads (magnum or rifle cartridges) can use it as an alternative to ultra-hard lead alloys or more conventional (and expensive) copper-jacketed or plated projectiles. It's also another method you can use to reduce your lead exposure.
What I look at is the consistency of the hardness and the last 2 was not that good.
Those bullets all have their sprues TORN and NOT Cut. Opening sprue plate too soon.
torn sprues will give inconsistent Weights.
I noticed the same thing. I always run two moulds.
I also performed the same test; I'll write my results below. You did not file down a flat section on your bullets before indenting according to the instructions
Air cooled (AC): BHN 11
Water Quenched (WC): BHN: 22.7
Powdercoated - WC - AC - BHN 9.8
Powdercoated - WC - WC: BHN 11
Powdercoated - AC - AC: BHN 10.4
All measurements are the average of 12 hardness points in 3 locations of 4 bullets. Overall, if you're going to powder coat the bullets; the hardness will pretty much be the same either air cooling or water quenching the bullets after.
Actually I did file them down.
ah, ok. in the portion of the vid it didn't look like you did
@@Mac2118 The original review/demo of the Lee Lead test kid I did shows it in detail; in most of the subsequent videos where I'm using it you can see it if you look close, but I cut a lot of that out to spare people seeing the same steps repeatedly.
www.lasc.us/heattreat.htm Personally I air cool, bake at the absolute hottest temperature in a toaster oven for about 30-45 minutes, then quench in cold water. Sizing has to be done fast after quenching because you can actually feel the bullets get hard.
I imagine heat treating does work well if you've got a toaster oven that will go high enough. For me, quenching right from the pot seems to consistently do well and just seems more convenient than running a whole other secondary process. What BHN are you getting with your method currently?
I don't actually know. I used to use the lee hardness tester but I found it to be a very inaccurate process, partially because you will get different readings depending on which part of the bullet or ingot you test. The other issue is that age hardening happens over weeks. I could test a sized bullet now, but a week to a month later it will be much harder.
The hardness I am getting is good enough for full power handguns and near max rifles including a 50BMG with no gas check.The other issue is that you don't want just hardness, you also need it to deform somewhat to hug the rifling . if it doesnt, the rifling shears the bullets surface leading to leading.
Powder coating has kind of made hardness moot. The coat keeps the bullet together so even relatively soft bullets will shoot without leading, the key is more accuracy since if it is soft to where it deforms when loading or by irregular obturation you lose accuracy. This is why I think converting the lee blackout mold to a flat base makes it more precise. The boat tail deforms when firing which causes imprecise shots.
I haven't experienced differences in tests on the same bullet so maybe that's alloy specific? I usually only test the middle portion hoewver when I was first experimenting with the Lee I would test three different points and always saw identical readings. What temp does your toaster oven peak at? If you ever do decide to test your heat-treated bullets, definitely share your results as I'm sure a lot of people would be interested.
My toaster peaks at 450- a little under 500 degrees. I use it outside so it depends partially on the temperature. My alloy is random as I basically use any lead I can get my hands on (usually range scrap with is generally fairly soft). I don't have my hardness kit anymore because I sold it off, but for possible reference, when it gets to max hardness on a 45 or 50 caliber bullet, it is impossible to bullet size on a normal press, you have to use an O press and only with using your full body weight to size it down. 30 caliber bullets are a lot easier, but it is still hard, kind of like sizing mil surplus 7.62x51.
5 samples in each group are not nearly enough. 10 would be good, 20 would be better.
Will take 5 samples above nothing every time. The bigger the deviation between tests the more you need - when all test virtually the same the smaller the sample needs to be.
Appreciate the video!
My pleasure.
Great video this why I alway water quench my lead bullets before powder coating and after Powder Coating I I like hard bullets