To be fair, 4000 year old wood also was the most interesting thing in Greek mythology, so i'd say you're on the right track to greatness. ... _Or crippling child support depending on which lesson you draw from this._
Stonehenge isn't as old as the other monuments in the rest of the British Isles and Ireland but it is still 6000 years old so surely 6000 years old rock is the most interesting thing in the entire country England is a very boring s******* also being from Norfolk you're probably inbred tell your sister wife and uncle husband I said hello lol nfn
@Good_Hot_Chocolate so the joke is that by "ancient greek student" the original commenter meant a student who studies ancient greek, however the response purposely misinterpreted it as a student whom was an immortal ancient greek person, for humorous effect. If that were true English wouldn't be their first language
i love the empathy you bring to all these stories. not just giving a voice to the ancient people who created the sites/artifacts etc, but to the current locals, to the people with modern religious connections, and even to the varying opinions and actions of archaeologists
@@METALGEARMATRIX He did still defend their legitimacy though, which seems to be a rarity. It's wild how many people outright deny the legitimacy of modern Neopagan and Wiccan sects.
@@METALGEARMATRIX They don't really have any skin in the game on this issue - they're modern religions mostly rooted in the new age movement, and with no more connection to ancient sacred sites than anyone else in the country.
something you mightve missed: the pagan dude in the middle of the photo of stonehenge at the 16 minute mark is King Arthur Pendragon. that is his name. not only is he a local legend, but he stands for general election as an MP in salisbury (the city where i live, 10 miles from stonehenge) every time.
i cannot express how glad i am that a) the seabirds seem to not have suffered too horribly from the excavation, and that b) arachæologist can date for as long as they have wood
As a former local to the area around Stonehenge I thank you for mentioning the much less touristy, much less known, avesbury, the MVP of henges in the Wiltshire area.
I remember going to Avebury for a school trip in year 7, honestly one of the few things I remember happening from that long ago. Definitely want to go back and touch the vibrating rock again sometime as an adult
He is (I know this video is old, irrelevant) really kicking ass right now. His narration/voiceover work is truly impressive. His delivery, knowledge, timing, personality, and humor come thru perfectly. You have a long career ahead of you, buckle up!
I love seeing an outsider's perspective on the weird stuff that goes on in the UK. Archeologists and English Heritage vs local people, druids, and a hemp-smoking tree hugger is peak Norfolk.
You know damn well, I'm gonna steal the "burial site with an upturned tree, where dead bodies are placed on top of it so birds can eat it" for my TTRPG-campaign. Shit's metal as fuck.
Hi Milo. This video inspired me to do my Architecture thesis on a suitable museum for the remains of Seahenge, right there in the field outside Holme. I first saw your video when it came out, visited the site a year later and did my thesis last year. Thank you so much for introducing me to this artefact in a way that truly gives voice to the many sides of this story!
Holme II has been significantly damaged since 1999 and is about halfway gone at this point. The two central logs had disappeared by 2013 and most of the outer structures were gone well before that. As of 2023, the inner ring itself is still visible but the top has broken off many of the planks, so they are lower than before, and some seem to have gone entirely. The side facing the sea seem to have been particularly hard hit and it is hard determine whether those planks are entirely gone or just worn down and covered by sand. If you get a chance to visit it, you should, it is likely to be gone within the next decade or two.
Honestly that's quite beautiful in my opinion. I feel that naturalist like sights should be respected. Yes it would be nice to keep it preserved for everyone to see but why? What right do you have to ogle the 'mysterious weird history thing' when those who made it weren't respected. It was placed there for a reason and may even have been intended to weather with time. Sometimes the beauty of nature can be ruined by freezing it in place and not allowing it to decay like the rest of us. Beauty is beauty became its a brief spectacle not a constant selfish display. Just my opinion but I do really see why others would want to preserve rather than watch from afar. Really it should be up to the culture it impacts and the locals that live with it.
@@paninibread1795 i really see where you are coming from but as someone studying archeology right now the decay and disappearing of historical traces and especially human traces is a cultural loss that cannot be undone no matter what, once something like a fossil or an artifact is destroyed that piece of history is most likely lost forever and that's exactly what archeology want to prevent, like that's the goal of archeology as a whole
@@paninibread1795weird history things! Who are u to say we can’t respect our ancestors or earth and original life… That’s why or we are lost to this crap society. Weird history thing ffs 🤦♀️
Seahenge reminds me of the Fremont museum here in Utah. A massive Fremont settlement (ancient native American group in the Utah area) was found either before or during highway construction. They gave some archeologists some time with the site, and the bulldozed it for the stupid highway. It's mostly gone, and so frustrating. This kind of thing has happened in this state before, too and it's incredibly sad.
@@AFuriousCrab yeah I mean at some point you have to weigh the importance of the site. Should we save the local Walmart because in a thousand years it will be history? Obviously no, but unless a site actually reveals something new or different about a culture it's not the end of the world. I know that's blasphemy to a lot of archaeologists but if we followed it tightly anywhere a musket ball or cannon was fired in wars past is a historic site today so enjoy no longer building anything lol.
26:04 You know you’ve got perfect God-tier hair when the locks are so luscious and full that they don’t even betray the fact that there’s a green screen behind them
I remember one of my Archaeology classes going over the question of "who owns artifacts?" and stuff like that, and sometimes the arrogance and entitlement of Archaeologists would be so frustrating. I'm glad they teach about avoiding that mindset more and advocate for humility these days, at least at my university.
Thing is, in 99% of cases the public has no interest in whatever archaeologists care about. Dark coloration in the earth? Old, nasty-looking potsherds? No interest. So they just assume that the prehistoric items fall into their responsibility.
@@Atanar89 Well there are actually quite a few cases where locals are actively butting heads with archaeologists over repatriation, which happens pretty often even today and has especially happened a lot in the past. Higher profile items in particular are often the target of debate over this because they're so popular and coveted, the Rosetta stone being one major example. One video covering this topic that was shown in one of my classes was this video: watch?v=5wpwYqwf4Qc Examples of some of the worst arguments against repatriation given in that video include: "well it's a really important artifact, and really history belongs to EVERYONE, therefore WE should be allowed to decide where it gets to go even though we definitely do not represent everyone", and "but we were the ones who did the work >:( so it's at least 50% ours, even though Egypt was never given the chance to do any of the work because it was literally stolen from them when the French invaded. So it was forcibly stolen from the locals, but like, we still did stuff with it first, so it's at least partially ours", and "I just feel like it belongs to us because we had it for so long already. Sure, nowhere near as long as the native country it was taken from, but like, it wasn't being looked at in a museum for all those thousands of years! it only counts when people are looking at it, so, finders keepers!" etc. One guy even says that the British museum has "metaphysical ownership" with a straight face, which is the kind of attitude that my archaeology profs would want to slap him across the face for. The British museum is a bit infamous for hoarding the stuff they obtained via theft and colonialism, despite many of the original countries wanting the pieces of their history and culture back. So there's very much a sense of arrogance and possessiveness involved with those types of people in the field that I hope becomes more diluted and fades away over time as better outlooks are taught and normalized.
Yes I remember my archaeology class looked over Seahenge as a case study and something of an example of what not to do in terms of preservation and consultation with locals/public
I agree with paleontologist and archaeologist love fucking over rural african tribes and the love fucking over pretty much all uneducated people that live in horrifying poverty that also aren’t caucasoid. A few years ago vice did a documentary about these French dudes that owned a massive marijuana corporation in Amsterdam and pretty much any western country that has a open market for legal thc products. In this documentary they traveled 9 days through Africa by plane to cross mountain then they traveled by boat in swamps and glades during a flood. They’d stay with poor rural families and were very respectful then when they got close to their destination the French dudes were giving out the equivalent of 10-20 usd to the tribe chieftains so they could get relatively guaranteed safety from the chance of any other tribe members and they were also lead through the rough terrain of the jungle. They gave out the equivalent of 20 usd to about 4 diff tribes so these guys spent 80 bucks to find the specific strain that has been so isolated from the entire world so it was so pure. Anyways this marijuana plant specifically had very very promising medicinal and psychoactive properties. Once they got there the interviewers asked them how much money would theses two French dudes would earn from it in a year and one of them resounded 40 million minimum by the end of the year. The translator told a tribes member and they were pissed that they were fooled after leading these men and carrying them on their literally backs barefoot like slaves while these dudes had steel toed boots protecting their feet in the jungle. When I saw that these ppl were being taken advantage of I was so damn angry and all these dudes needed was the seeds. These guys pointed guns at the Africans and forced them to lead them back. It made me so angry they could’ve given these tribes 5% minimum of what they earned off the seeds for 5 years. It would’ve completely changed the lives of these ppl and put them in a way better position. But instead these French dudes were being greedy and selfish (this doc made me understand why so many European whether western or eastern countries and Asian and European countries have hated the French for hundreds of years. If they just gave these tribes 1k each they’d have enough money to feed their small tribes for a year or 2. Typically these ppl only earn the equivalent of 10 usd a month after working 12 hour shifts or more everyday. It truly broke my heart seeing these . It so sad man. These African countries were once colonized and had their nations formed from colonial maps . They didn’t even get to choose their own land or countries. That’s why Africa has so many civil wars Bc you have so many ethnic backgrounds in one country it’s bound to lead to civil turmoil and civil war. Even today France is one of the only political powers thst still colonize African nations using nep colonialism to extract precious metals and jewels, sometimes the minors are enslaved into their work and some won’t ever see a dime from their work, even the ones who get paid only make like 3-5 usd a week. It made me so sick to my stomach seeing how these greedy French bastards just rape and pillage these ppls home stone French gov has also caused more coups and civil wars than Henry Kissinger ever could. I’m sure if Kissinger could see what the French are doing today he’d literally cream his paints and make a mess
@@harlequingnoll5 So it's an atrocity to time-honoured artifacts? I was thinking it was something like "you think that the present is more important than the past but the future will miss out so it's selfish to honour your own time above others"
By the power invested in me by Barbara Windsor I herby revoke your right to call yourself a Londoner, ex or otherwise. You are now city-less and may the London Eye have mercy on your soul.
I'm honestly struggling to see how they thought that taking it apart and moving it would allow them to learn its purpose, because hasn't it been suggested that henges and megaliths and, I guess, megawoods, were in certain locations and positions *for a reason?*
@@jakel2837 It didn't survive the sea for 1000 years, it was built in an inland marsh, which the sea has eroded. It only became visible because the protective anaerobic muds had recently been stripped away by wave action. You can look at Historic England's report on Holme 2, which documents its deterioration in the last few years, a fate which would have befallen Sea Henge if it hadn't been removed.
my favorite part of these "discoveries" are the fact they're usually not even unknown prior to the "discovery" date, whoever lives around there definitely already knows about it, probably has oddly specific folk tales about it, might even still hold ceremonies on that site. the "Discovery" date is just, whenever someone from outside of that town learned AND wrote it down.
but if something's been there your whole life, can you truly say you discovered it? it's like how nobody has ever claimed to have discovered the Moon. to discover something you have to have not known about it beforehand, so technically it's correct. that said, it is still fun to laugh at people who "discovered" things that the locals already knew about.
As a middle school history teacher, I lovereee this content. Part of me wishes this was more kid-friendly so I could show my kids but then again, I like being able to escape into your aggressive and salty archeology rants on my drive home. Thanks for the great content!
Already the first minute of his witty banter is pure comedy gold. Somebody should splice together Milo's highlits and just let him rip for an hour; I love this guy, a true Treasure 😝
God it would’ve been so nice to watch videos of this quality in school instead of the old VHS tapes with audio so horrible I couldn’t understand a single word 😅 Though to be fair I have audio processing disorder so I can hardly make out what’s being said without captions regardless of quality 😭
The sad part is that the kids almost certainly have seen way more revolting things in their time on the internet and would probably love to watch this vid during a lesson - but you as a teacher may still get in trouble for it for some f*cking reason
I'm reminded of the story a dendrochronologist told about getting the cutting bit of their core sampler stuck in a bristlecone pine. Now this was near the beginning of their trip and they didn't have another bit. So to retrieve the bit, which would be needed to take many more core samples, they cut down the tree. It turns out the tree was the oldest living tree on the planet, about 5,000 years old. And they had just killed it.
Some how I fail to see how a 4,853 year old tree (the oldest known, living, non-clonal tree) is no older than a 4,359 year old flood........ There seems to be a several hundred year gap there. I know math has never been my strong suit but I quake for the education system after seeing your math skills.
Wait, wait. I'm lost. Is it "the oldest tree's known to us, are no older than the date [of the Flood]" or is it "growth rings cannot be relied on"? Are we relying on them for a date or not? Either we are and the date is older than the Flood or we are not and you get to use hand waving to hand pick which parts of science you want to keep and which you want to conveniently ignore. Oops, I used a different creationist date for the Flood. So hard to figure out which to use; AIG, JW, Ussher, etc. And I was also wrong about the date I used, it should have been 2348 BC. I forgot the post I grabbed the date from was from ~10 years ago.
@@donk1822 Huh. And all this time I thought scientists made hypotheses, hit the library to find previous relevant data and context, discussed their hypotheses with people of the relevant expertise, proposed a inquiry, standardized and documented their methods, produced data, analysed that data against the null hypothesis and any other relevant data they could get access to, discussed their assumptions and the strengths, weaknesses and limitations of their study, released it for review, revised it for errors and then presented their conclusion to the general public. Didn't realise that counted as pissing.
@@luciesimpson6437 'And all this time I thought scientists made hypotheses'. They do, like the ones that said, Venus is covered in Forests, there are canal's on Mars, Thalidomide is safe, torturing people in mental institutions will cure them. They get paid for theories, ideas, even absolute lies on occasions. Whatever it is that's falling on your head, rest assured, it isn't all of potable quality.
In Englands Bronze Age the people were very good at making circles since they lived in round houses, which are very well made circles, so unless Bronze Age Billy tried to just wing it in making a circle they probably did it elliptical shape.
I mean it would be harder to make an ellipse than a circle. Having created an ellipse for a horticulture project there's a few míre steps involves. A circle is easy. An ellipse was a too much fir my non mathematical brain.
Remember the time they discovered troy and used dynamite to get to the depth they thought it was only to realize the math was off and they went to deep realizing they blew one of the most sought after archeological sites of all time right to hell.
At least that was an accident. The image of the tree hanging from a crane is going to stick with me for years. It's right up there with the one of a MASSIVE tree (like 15' diameter) that had been felled and some people were standing next to it like a hunter and their trophy. We will never see trees that big again.
@@EnigmaticRPG I've stood on a tree stump in California that was so big that the settlers there used it as a dance floor. Read accounts of a tree felled north of Seattle that may have been more than 400 feet tall. Words cannot truly express my shock and horror that people are so blithely willing to desecrate things that by all rights should fill them with humility and awe.
I'm someone with ancestral ties and who grew up in that part of the UK... I was only a kid when SeaHenge was excavated, but I can remember the media storm around it as it happened. If anyone is interested, TimeTeam were actually involved in its excavation - so, you need to look no further than that episode to see the events that played out documented. So, for anyone who isn't aware/is interested: The people who we now call the Iceni were culturally embedded into that landscape. Holme is at the end of the Icknield Way & the pre-Iceni people were drovers - migratory people who travelled in herds, from season to season. East Anglia is covered in ancient droving routes - which is how Flag Fen fits into the picture, being, as you mention, an ancient causeway. There are a number of other well known/documented trackways - the Pedders Way, the Weavers Way...etc... The thing about the dead bodies isn't random lore. It is believed that SeaHenge I was the place where the dead were processed. The upside down oak being some form of representation of the Yggdrasil lore. SeaHenge II, on the other hand, is believed to be a place of birthing. I hope I don't have to explain the logs...
@@beeble2003 A lot of the theory is knitted together really well by Francis Pryor in A Time Traveller's Tales from Britain's Prehistory ~ if you can get a hold of it. Sure, as always, it can't always be proven 100%, but there's enough fragmentary evidence of our ancestors cyclical days to daily lives and rituals across the world that suggest that some form Proto Indo-European Yuletide-like ritual was being carried out there.
@@wistymations The OP claims that something "is believed". It is entirely legitimate to ask who believes this thing and why, as this use of the passive voice suggests a generally held belief of the population at large. For example, the statement "it is believed that the Earth is flat" is objectively correct, in that there are people who believe that,. However, it's hugely misleading, as it suggests a generally accepted fact. "It is a folk story" is a possible answer to the "why?" part, but the "who?" part is still important. There's a huge difference between "a few people believe" and "it is a generally accepted fact"
The only real reason I see for removing the site would be if the sea was eroding it away very quickly and it was likely to be lost. Even then, there's probably 20 different things they could have done to compromise with the locals and not lose the site.
It survived there for 4000 years and we have no real reason to believe it wouldn't last another 1000 but the EH made sure to destroy it before we could find out.
@@kacperwoch4368 The storm at the start was what exposed it. It was fine under the peat moss but with that gone and with the salt water and sun now hitting it, it could've deteriorated very quickly. The problem was they didn't seem to even consider if it was possible to protect it in place before just ripping it out.
Honestly we learned basically nothing and really what is the value in trying hard to preserve it if it is completely removed from the area it was made in and the context it was made in. It’s not the site anymore, it’s just a bunch of pieces of wood now. Preservation is an interesting conundrum but honestly things like this should just be left as they are. Studied, but not removed.
@@ConWolfDoubleO7 But the locals had known about it for years already so it had been exposed before and probably would be again. Even if the excuse was for preservation, there's no reason to move it away from its hometown so I agree with your last sentence.
I usually watch these videos for fun and just to learn some cool new knowledge, but this guy is like a genuinely an awesome storyteller, I was hooked by the first couple sentences.
Even living trees are pretty wild sometimes. There's a deciduous tree I know of that got knocked on its side in a storm years ago, and _it's still alive._ It has adapted to its new sideways orientation by turning the branches in the ground into new roots.
I see all sorts of trees when I hike that are such weird shapes from breaking and healing through so many storms, trees that have huge dead sections and equally huge living sections, it's just nuts
my grandfather has an apple tree that is completely hallowed out yet still produces apples. its also on top of an old native american campsite and i know our conspiracy theorists will love that fact lmfao.
Trees really are just weird. There's instances of people taking grown trees, digging them up - roots and all - then flipping it upside down and burying it. The tree survives by going "fuck you" and turning its branches into roots and its roots into leafing branches. I've seen pics of them and they're *very* weird looking. You can find images of them by googling "tree planted upside down"
@@Headstash1080 The interesting thing happening there is that only the outermost layers of a tree are actually alive, with all the rest just passively pulling up water. So a hollowed out tree is no more dead than a solid one, albeit likely not getting as much water to its foliage
@@miniminuteman773 if it serves you for anything, your melodic choices for spliting chapters are also on point. They produce no humming noise no the TV and are comfortable on headphones. Volume balance is also spotless for every transition, no need to mute or change volume even a single time. These might seem small, but even PBS Eons messes up these details once to often, regardless of their nearly perfect scripts and presentations
@@miniminuteman773 I enjoy the little tangents.. they make for a natural telling of the story, reminiscent of VSauce or CGPGrey. It just seems natural to "tug on the thread" and follow little tangents for a bit (Like Buster Nolan) before you get back to the story at hand.
@@miniminuteman773 It's been a few years now but I remember hearing rumors of something like this right off the coast of Florida , might be worth looking into .
Aw man, as soon as you used the same image of Seahenge more than twice, I immediately thought: "it's because there are no new photos of the site because it was destroyed." I'm pretty sad I was right
There's an entire episode of Time Team on it where you can have a really good look. They said the sea was going to swallow it up and rot the wood before long, now that it was exposed. It would be gone by now, either way.
WOW LOOK ITS A DIFFERENT TIME NOW! I'm so happy my brother showed me this channel. I have loved history, archeology, and geology since I was a young child exploring places like cliff palace in Mesa Verde, the ruins of multiple western mining towns in Utah's south and the Uintah Basin, or even the cliff dwellings near manitou springs Colorado where I live near now. this channel is one of the most educational, self aware, and enjoyable presentations of history and its many facets I've ever seen. Keep it up Milo, you're amazing and as a 25 year old tradesman, if I ever go to college you will be to thank.
This is fascinating and tragic. I am reminded of a pair of in-situ dinosaur fossils in Dinosaur National Park in Canada who had protective structures built around them. One was a small(dog-sized) ancestor of a Triceratops that was left as is in the rock with a plexiglass and wood pyramid built over it to protect it from people and the weather. The other was a fully adult duck-billed dinosaur, who, as the story goes, was found by a park ranger in the late 1910s with part of the tail sticking out one side of a hoodoo and part of the head on the other side. With help, the part of the rock containing the fossil was cut loose and carefully lowered to flat-ish ground beside the hoodoo. Unable to get large enough vehicles in to get it out, a building was built around the rock and it was studied there. The building has been replaced a few times, but it still stands and at least when I went, could be accessed on official park tours in an otherwise closed off area of the park. Its unfortunate that such an approach wasn't done in this case.
To be fair it may not have been possible, but what happened here is people who did not own the site treated it as their property and destroyed it in order to preserve its components parts, and very arrogantly told locals they had no rights over it, when they had as much right as anyone else. They also told archeologists not involved in the removal they couldnt observe it and Time Team, the TV show they could have one guy filming, then allowed camera crews from all media outlets to come and film. Because it wasnt their property to say who could and couldn't come. It may have been better to try and cover it up again.
@@voicetest6019 so basically create the Netherhlands 2? In that area the tides are between 2.5 and 5.5 m, and the site was about 230m out from the dunes, about 370 m near where a creek flows into the sea. It would basically mean creating an 800m long, 10m high dike straight through a nature reserve and breaking up a beach in an area prone to erosion.
Well, it isn't really a "henge" since a henge is the ditch and possible earth walls around the circle so the name is more or less clickbait the newspapers or locals made up, but it was real. There might however be something closer to the CIV5 bug outside Orkney. There seems to be an actual henge with stones on the bottom of the sea outside Orkney that might be around 1000-1500 years older then stonehenge. If it is it was still built near the water and flooded with raising sea water levels. Josh Gates from Expedition unknown dived on it a few years back but evidence was inconclusive. A LIDAR study of the place is really needed to prove or disprove the place. Sometimes life might be stranger then fiction. :)
Well then, I guess I have to change the plans for the statue of libersea, then... *That one's actually supposed to be in the water* I know this from somewhere I just don't know where from
A lot of archaeologists forget that *context* is just as important to sites as the artifacts themselves. A pot's meaning is different if it's in a house, or a palace, or a silo. So too is the meaning of a landmark by where it is. A skyscraper in a city would have very different meaning than one in a small town. We probably would have been able to tell more about Seahenge and its purpose if it had been left there. And the town would have more meaning and happiness. Honestly, removing those wood timbers feels like moving all the stones of Stonehenge to a museum.
I agree with the sentiment, but at the same time I agree as to why it was removed: dire preservation. Unlike sites like Stonehenge, Seahenge was in danger of being destroyed by the sea as what happened to Holme II. So while it is important to let a site stay where it is for the sake of context as you said, is it more important than the actual integrity and overall survival of the site itself for future generations?
@@srslothingtonThe site is no more-- it was removed from its location, and thus is no longer a site. Future generations cannot visit the site. Its remains are kept in a museum to be gawked at without locational context, and thus lose their meaning.
It was going to be destroyed if they had left it there . And I can assure you that archaeologists are entirely trained professional people who are completely aware of the importance of context. For anybody to claim that they are not it's just a demonstration of their own ignorance.
@@hobosorcerer See my above question, while it certainly doesn’t have the same charm as it would had it been left as is, it’s better to at least have it somewhere rather than nowhere.
On the opposite side of the UK, in Borth, the roots of a petrified forest got revealed on a beach after a storm in 2014. There had always been a local legend about an ancient kingdom out in Cardigan bay, that got flooded by the ocean because of the carelessness of the Prince. People took these stumps as a sign that the kingdom had really been there in one form or another many years ago. They said you could still hear the bells of the sunken churches, being rung by the tides.
New archaeologist here! This truly is a fascinating and tragic tale, and hopefully it will never happen again. Today, CIfA demands that all its members “take into account in the planning and execution of historic environment projects the legitimate concerns of individuals or group(s) about places, objects, human remains or intangible heritage that they believe to hold significant cultural or religious meaning or connotations” and that “members shall consult where appropriate with those affected individuals or group(s), with the goal of establishing a mutually beneficial working relationship”. Clauses like these that we are taught as gospel today are no doubt the result of cases like this, and I have to thank you for making this case more well known. As we move into an era of justified accountability discussions like this will become all the more important, and I hope that we will all learn the best ways to learn about and protect our collective human heritage without discord or hatred.
I like that there are these guidelines set in place, though it does feel like they could still be subverted, particularly in the case where a group isn't well known, or had no desire to communicate with the archeologists. How do you deal with the possibility that a group unknown to you could have great culture connection to a place (or would if they even knew about it)?
ethical guidelines for the treatment of artifacts have been in place with most archaeological/exploration entities for over a century (be it good or bad), even Arthur Evans had a list of things he would and would not do at a time not too much later from Schliemann detonating dynamite at Hissarlik. While ethics have changed through time, most organizations and institutions came to a version of the above statement in the 1960s and 1970s with the post modern paradigm change. CIfA itself would have been well established by the late 90s and I would wager that the code of conduct would have wording in it similar to the current one if not at the very least something along those lines (I am too young and disassociated from UK archaeology to know). The issue still arises where people will do something because they can, not because they should, and entities with enough clout or finances can circumvent "ethics statements" or legal battles that may surround them, take the legal disaster that is NAGPRA in the US for example. To me Holm 2 is much more interesting and potentially provides a lot more information of the material culture of late Neolithic/early Bronze Age peoples of the south eastern UK. Imagine if groups had worked together with Holm 1 instead of playing at being Time Team.... we might have actually learned something useful.
Time team did a special on this. Every one was consulted but the thing was getting destroyed by the sea. So it was moved. They also built a version of the henge on dry land. Either the thing was moved or it got washed out to sea.
I'm with Milo on this, with the nature of costal sites like this there isn't much to be gained from excavation and the potential presence of worthwhile artifacts is small. Listening to local outcry to not disturb it would have been a much better use of finances. Not only that but exposed costal sites usually aren't exposed for too long, they are either destroyed (by vandalism or nature) or rapidly reburied by the same forces that exposed them. Also at the time the site was exposed our knowledge of the preservation of water logged wood was much different than it is now, the preservation process was probably incredibly damaging, replacing water in the cellulose with PEG or another chemical that can distort the wood or never fully stabilize the artifact, resulting in its slow destruction, or expensive indefinite retreatment (ie Vasa).
I've never felt physical pain from just hearing descriptions of an action This was a painful watch, I sincerely hope we the big Archeology organizations can learn from their mistakes.
@@HarrDarr are they, though? If someone cut you up and took out every organ, then properly cleaned them and put them in formaldehyde, were you actually preserved?
I played one of your videos for my best friend tonight, and a few chuckles in, they said to me “that young man is a treasure.” We both love your sense of humor and talent for engaging your audience. Keep up the excellent work!
Hey. I'm in and out of hospital and in the greatest pain of my entire life. I just wanted to say thank you for uploading this, I'm an anthropologist among other things and fascinated to learn about this. I really enjoy your content and for the duration of the video I focused on your words instead of my pain. Keep on keeping on
I’d genuinely be interested in your extended take on “The Council Of British Druids” because they are *interesting* and I very much enjoy your presentation and analysis of *interesting* things.
I think removing the site probably destroyed much of it's significance. It is probably reasonable to assume the exact placement of the site and the distance and orientation the individual pieces had to one another was a crucial part of it. Displaying it the way it is displayed now, feels like someone sorting a puzzle by the color of the idividual pieces and claiming it is what was supposed to happen to the artwork depicted by the complete puzzle.
They made an accurate diagram of the exact positions and rotations of every piece. Not saying what they did is good, but I am saying that this reason for it being bad isn't applicable.
@@grantdraus7449 An irrelevant side-note which might qualify as a "fun fact" on a less deplorable topic most certainly does NOT invalidate the reasoning. You have met a perceived ignorance with far, far greater ignorance. Very fitting, given the story presented in the video.
@@apenguininthemist855 no that's not a side note. Did you read my comment? It was purely about the fact that moving the pieces physically from their original location was not a bad thing on its own, in and of itself. The reason being is that we in deep detail know the original places of each piece. There are other reasons this is bad, but that is not one of them. Increase your reading comprehension skills before deciding to use such big words.
As a local, it was actively breaking up in the storms. If the archaeologists left it, there'd.be nothing left and we'd also no nothing about it. Which is exactly what happened to the second sister site nearby.
I am local to it all. It appeared from time to time. How it is now displayed is ok I suppose but they should’ve left it where it was and figured out how to protect it in situ.
The site long predates the existence of druids on Britain. If it’s religious in nature it would relate to whatever the local pre-Celtic culture was. They could have used it, but who knows. Though if anyone is having crows eat peoples’s eyes it’s certainly the pre-celtic people.
Same thing happened in my town.....I was absolutely furious... The oldest standing structure and the first house built, in the 1600's (Stamford CT) was picked up and moved several miles away to make room for a new police department....you can't just uproot historical places and put them somewhere else. They are a part of the landscape, a part of the soul of the place. With LIDAR and other imaging technology that is non-invasive, hopefully we will be able to keep more sites in situ. Well made videos! I'll have to visit that site some day.
Great video as always, but I have a comment or two on the Druids. Historically they have almost bugger all to do with megalithic henges and other such ancient sites, the Druids were the priestly class of the Celts, who arrived in Britain around 1000BC, millennia after the construction of seahenge and hundreds of years after the last megaliths were erected in Europe. They may well have made use of the sites they found in some way, but they certainly didn't make them, and most of the Neo-Druidism stuff that happens at Stonehenge was invented by romantics in the Victorian era.
Well at least it’s their religion. Skeevy still, but far less so than white people rewriting Native American religion. The people who built Stonehenge don’t really have any descendant outside of the modern people of the British Isles. Maybe the died out or maybe they were absorbed, but these people are the closest thing they’ve got. If you want to fuck around with your own ancestor’s religion, that’s fine with me. Maybe my opinion would be different if my areas hippies were less *colonial*.
It's kind of poetic when you think of it, modern "druids" make a bunch of stuff up about archaeological sites, just as the Celtic druids very likely would have picked up on and appropriated ancient neolithic sites in their beliefs back around the roman times.
I'm a conservator and as much as I like preserving stuff, sometimes you have to make compromises. Conservation ethics is a whole field on it's own and I think this would be a great case for discussion both in archaeology and conservation education (probably already has)
What would the compromise here be? I don't see how the archeologists in this situation have any right to touch this site at all. Preservation in this instance means entirely leaving it alone imo
@@guy-sl3kr ok so I work with paintings so this is not quite my area, but I had a guest lecturer at university who specialised in waterlogged archaeological wood, and she talked about in situ-conservation. It means that if an object can’t be excavated and brought up to the surface you basically bury it on the bottom of the ocean where it was found. I’m thinking they should have done something similar with this, either covering it or just leave it alone. And if you want people to be able to see the object on the surface you could instead construct a replica.
What compromise? They didn't preserve the site, they dismantled it and thereby destroyed it. They turned it from an ancient structure into a bunch of artifacts.
So being from Norfolk and also being a Dark Age reenactor (it's relevant I promise), I can confirm that the work done at flag fen on not only the sea henge timbers but the causeway present at the site itself, is absolutely fucking phenomenal. Though I accept that moving Seahenge away was a bit of a dumb decision the process taken to preserve the wood is insane. They are still working on preserving parts of the wood from the causeway and you can literally watch the process happening as the preservation area is also an exhibit. They are also a bit sheepish about the fact that they dealt with the seahenge timbers because they realise its not a particularly proud moment to have ripped out a stupidly important historical site, that the people if Norfolk in its entirety are very annoyed about. (The dark age reenactor bit is relevant because a Viking and Saxon reenactment weekend takes place there every year and I've seen the exhibit at least 4 times. When I say reenactment weekend I dont mean larping around in leather with chunks of foam, I mean historical teaching in an outdoor provision)
This is how to solve every world problem: 1. Get a room and gather various scientific tools. 2. Litter the tools about the room. 3. Put famous TH-camrs miniminuteman, etymology_nerd, Vsauce, and rainbolt in said room. 4. Let them speak and play with the tools for around 40-60 minutes. 5. Tada! They will have figured out the entirety of where they are (rainbolt) why they are (Vsauce) and the entirety of human history (etymology_nerd and miniminuteman), however as this discussion was for introduction to eachother, disregard information given by content creators. 6. After the TH-camr scientists are done meeting eachother, ask about any problem or threat to humanity. 7. Allow them to discuss aforementioned problem until a consensus is reached. 8. Employ consensus given by the group. 🎉🎉THE WORLD IS SAVED🎉🎉
A story beautifully told. I actually shouted “no!” when you got to the center oak being chainsawed, it just felt so viscerally wrong. And the reveal of the second site at the end got me just a little misty. I’m so looking forward to sticking with your channel!
I think the instrument at the beginning of the “Stonehenge” song is a Carnyx, an ancient Celtic battle horn that was often carved into the heads of serpents, horses, dragons, and other really neat things. It’s got a really cool haunting sound.
If anyone is interested in hearing the Carnyx in all its haunting glory: th-cam.com/video/HHJSd9nigSA/w-d-xo.html It’s got a lot of range, but on the lower notes it definitely sounds kinda like a didgeridoo.
I've been to the Seahenge exhibit in Lynn and I must admit I quite enjoyed it. I remember seeing the controversy on the news but I didn't realise how much English Heritage steamrolled the locals. At least however it was kept reasonably local and is completely free to view, but it would have been nice if they'd found a way to protect it in situ.
Too difficult placement, and having it chopped with a chainsaw is probably a good reason too to remove it... You also have to consider that when they decide so, they really don't know if they are going to find anything below the stump/logs, like remains, artifacts, ashes, etc (which is pretty common). Now you know the end result, which is that there was nothing interesting.
@@grievuspwn4g3 Holme is tiny. It's basically a pub and some houses, so there isn't any existing museum they could use. Really nice fish and chips though. I think King's Lynn was basically the closest museum there was that actually has the facilities to take it.
@@grievuspwn4g3 There is no obvious right place to put it, at least in my eyes. Sure, it was found in Holme, so it 'belongs' to the people of Holme, right? At the same time, it was found in Norfolk county, so maybe it should be put in a place where the most people of Norfolk county could enjoy it. It's just as much their history as it is that of the People currently living in Holme. The same argument can be transferred to England as a whole. Then there's also the preservation and economical side. It just doesn't always make sense to keep archaelogical sites near their finding place. It would be stupidly expensive and sometimes impossible.
Don't try to enable this by saying "at least it was kept local". It doesn't matter if it was moved 10 m down the road, the fact is it was destroyed and stolen.
@@bavarianpotato in this case it does make sense to keep it where it was found, it had been there over 4000 years without anybody interfering with it, it wasn't costing anything. That sounds like a bad excuse made by people to steal historical monuments. Most of these monuments have been hidden for thousands of years without any money put into them. It's a very European Colonial idea that we can just take history "for the greater good"
For all you talked about him I expected Buster Nolan to have some important part in this story, like him tying himself to the tree and almost drowning by the morning tides for days, but I guess he was just a cool guy who made Stonehenge montages on Windows Movie Maker
Buster Nolan is not a man who would perform a cheap stunt such as you say. He's a skilled exceptionally clever man when it comes to trees. They wanted him for his knowledge, not a stunt protester that can be denounced and be made out as a nutter by the media. Knowledge and argument is better than gimmicks. Buster Nolan I take my hat off too you, your a top man...👍🏻
Totally off topic, but the information about growth rings reminded me about it. I felled a dead american elm, 43 inches wide at it's widest point, and it only had 78 growth rings. It had been dead for about 10 years, but there was still a little bit of sap in the lowest sections of the stump. Another one that I cut, 52 inches at breast height, had 84 or 89 growth rings. It had been dead for 3 years, no new growth, no leaves, and the bark was peeling off of it. One year to the day that I finished cutting it, there is new growth sprouting from the stump. That stump may have been placed with the roots up to, in part, prevent new growth from sprouting from where it was cut. Anything cut in late spring to early summer holds moisture a bit better than something cut in the fall or winter.
I’ve heard a lot of stories of folks making archeological finds on their land and either concealing or, frequently, destroying them. Specifically for reasons like this. Because they don’t want archeologists and “the government” stomping around, digging up their land and making a general mess of things.
yeah, I heard if that too. especially big projects like highways which involve a ton of money and all of a sudden they remove a bronce age grave hill (Germany) and to forgoe the costs and time delay it just disappears.
Same thing happens if endangered species are found on private property by the landowners. Rather than being excited that they have something cool on their land, they are more concerned about the bureaucratic red tape and nosy government officials controlling what they can do on their land, and those endangered species quietly disappear…
There are a lot of laws in the UK for this reason. By law any building built before 1950 must have an archeological dig done beneath it if it is to be demolished
@@StarWarsomania Which is anything, is even more of an argument to NOT give these shitstains any say, and fine anyone who destroys priceless heritage till they learn...
People often assume that while violating ethics is bad, at least it gives us valuable knowledge we otherwise wouldn't have. I have yet to see a single real instance of this actually being the case.
Sacrifices "have" to be made in the pursuit of knowledge! Like that clam that was killed to judge its age, found to be one of the longest living things (up until it was killed), and we have no clue how much longer it may have lived. I adore science but like... ffs
@@EnigmaticRPG well part of science is not knowing how big you fucked up til after the fuck up. You still learn something, just not what you wanted to learn.
The only reason the pyramids are in Egypt is because they wouldn't fit in the British Museum. One only has to look at the Elgin Marbles from the Parthenon and the British Museums treatment and refusal to even discuss returning them to know that Seahenge wouldn't have a happy ending either.
The Elgin Marbles are only in the british museum because mr. Elgin was short of cash. They were lying in his garden gathering moss. He wasn’t even an archaeologist, he was just a vandal. There was a recent discussion between the British Museum and a Greek counterpart about loaning them to the Greek museum but this was firmly quashed when the prime minister insisted on turning it into a diplomatic incident (for no good reason I will add.)
@@intergalactic92 it's a discussion that's been going on since at least the 80s. The big sticking point was that Greece lacked the facilities to house and store them properly (ignoring how the BM treated them). So Greece spent a pile of money building a state of the art museum to house them, and even show as they're supposed to be, not like how they are at the British. And in true British fashion, they moved the goal posts. The notion of lending them back to Greece is insulting. It's like if a guy steals your car and then let's you rent it back to drive around occasionally. They know if they give them back, all the other countries the British robbed would be demanding their stuff back.
@@tigerspirit1917 Greeks should just pull off an "Italian Job"-style heist, break into the British Museum and take back their marbles. Steal from the rich and all that... What is it about the British culture and stealing?
Respectfully, the Ring of Brodgar is on Orkney (Scotland), not England or Ireland. Highly recommend a visit to Neolithic Orkney to see Skara Brae, the Ring of Brodgar, Standing Stones of Stenness, Maeshowe, and the currently-being-excavated Ness of Brodgar 👍🏻 really interesting for a few days' visit and some beautiful scenery nearby, too 🏴
I remember this happening. I live a couple of hours south of where Seahenge was located and was 11 at the time. At least us Brits are ecumenical, we don't only desecrate other countries ancient sites we do it to our own as well. English heritage does do a lot of good with preserving/maintaining sites across the country but they can be devastatingly heavy handed.
Honestly I am so proud of you for getting your first sponsor. You are genuinely interesting and fun to listen to, so I’m looking forward to more people learning about how cool you are.
Two minutes in and I’m astounded at the writing. Rarely does a person both know his shit and have the ability to deliver it in such a captivating way. Another fuckin banger 🤘🏻
"Everyone's favourite henge made of stone...... Avebury." Which if you talk to a local, yes do so, we will tell you to go there because, its, bigger, you can touch the stones, and it's free. Also because its either too warm or too wet, the village has a pub, food and beer. You're welcome. I'm so glad that was the answer, i was half way through thinking, Ugh not Stonehenge again
I'm so happy I found this channel. As a person with ADHD I usually struggle with listening about some historical stuff, but not here. Thank you for the knowledge!
I am an historic tour guide. I do my best to give accurate info in tiny nutshells... and add humor to, hopefully, get people to retain the knowledge. So, if I may say: You are a master storyteller. A raconteur! Bravo! I really love your delivery... and I hope you continue to educate us! 😁👍
rewatching this, it reminds me of the case of the hilton of cadboll stone in scotland, a pictish symbol stone which has a long history from being torn apart to become a gravestone, to being put in the british museum and now the scottish national museum and conflict with locals that lead to a reconstruction being built in the town (which i was lucky enough to visit!) - sian jones has a great study on it with some great oral history. i think there's also an even more recent conflict with the lower half being discovered and locals wanting it to remain in the town, so im interested to see what happened there
Thank you so much for making this video: I recently visited this area with my Dad, and I mentioned Seahenge to him so we went to the bird sanctuary and the King's Lynn museum. We wouldn't have gone there without this video, and it was interesting that the first thing my Dad said on learning about the controversy in the museum was "Why were they protesting?" and I could fill in some of the blanks the museum didn't cover. Despite this, if you are in the area, I highly recommend visiting the museum - they only have two exhibition rooms and an adorable gift shop, and tickets are free in the off season! When we were there, a group of local school children were visiting and the museum was pulling out all the stops to make sure these children knew the history of the place they lived in
So glad that you came to youtube, my dude. It feels like a whole new scale for you to climb and achieve those dreams of sharing accurate knowledge and your pure enjoyment that is the field of archeology in all its aspects, both great and heartbreaking moments!!
So eye opening to hear a story that paints archeology in a more unfavorable light. Gives a good idea of the nuance of archeological digs. Also that Steppe Mammoth joke was great
As infuriating and puzzling as the decision to remove Seahenge from the site is, this is an amazing piece of work. Immediately fell in love with your channel!
It’s not infuriating or puzzling, it was the logical thing to do. Seahenge is better off in the hands of professionals who know how to preserve it. Why would you want it left in the hands of some idiot townsfolk?
@@HarshDude126 Your comment can be used to justify digging up Native American holy sites/graves because you think that the people who are part of the sites' heritage are "idiot townsfolk". Go fys.
Its made of wood. After being exposed it would have rotted away within years. There was allways a chance we could have learned more by excavating it. If we had left it there. It would be gone now, and wed allways be left wondering if it held secrets to pur past. Also worth noting this place was built 4000 years ago. No person alive in that town was a part of its culture. And almost certainly most of them wereent even related to the builders. The druids are the same. They go to stone henge. A site built most likely not by druids. And do a bunch of fske worship they made up. Its a religion they know nothing about because its been lost. And the people that practiced it are also mostly gone
After the storm exposed the wood from the mud and silt, it was going to be destroyed by the sea. Some did argue that it would have been better to let nature destroy it, and ok I guess, but it's not puzzling.
@@HarshDude126 Because they wanted it to stay where it was? It's like walking up to an old church and going "We should break these stones and ship them across the country"
When I was a child my parents had a holiday caravan at Holme-next-to-sea but sea henge had not been exposed then. As I recall the main reason for removing it was once it was exposed to sea and elements is wasn't going to last long anyways. As someone has mentioned here the 2nd henge is quickly disappearing. Coastal erosion in this area is a major problem.Further along the coast line its eroding at an alarming rate. You can walk along some benches and see abandoned houses half washed away.
perhaps that is true, but they rushed this and were so incredibly arrogant about what they were doing and towards locals who opposed it. They also did it in sucha hurry, it was gone before they could see any destruction by the sea.
@@dorianleakey you are assuming the one-sided argument from the video is true and the whole truth, did the locals oppose it, did a majority oppose it or just a couple and 1 journalist
Thanks for this information. I was already wondering if this was part of the coast with this erosion. So the removal was the best thing to do. A Dutch author wrote a novel where this erosion played an important role.
@jannetteberends8730 it was the only the best thing for the historical organizations. As Milo put it amazingly, contemporary archaeologists often think they have a right to every site when they do not. If the locals didn't want it gone it should never have been removed. Even if it would have been lost from erosion so what? Not everything is meant to last forever.
I will say that you quoted the Unites States property law. In England, English Heritage has the right to take over sites that are deemed "archeologically significant". It's not some group of amateur archeology enthusiasts, it's a governmental organization that oversees all archeological sites in England, and once a place is declared a "heritage site" they dictate what happens there. When you watch as many Time Team reruns as I have, you realize how serious they are. Speaking of, I'm pretty sure Time Team did an episode on Seahenge, they were there in 1999. I'm pretty sure they did the recreation or helped with it.
Yeah, that section of the video was very US-centric and didn't seem to understand that not everywhere is like that. In particular, the idea that a town is essentially sovereign over its land simply does not apply in the UK.
I think in the UK, all archaeological finds are reported to the government and they have to decide the fate of the object - they'll almost always consider land ownership as the sole right to the item and guess who owns the sea bed in the UK - The Crown Estate - AKA the Queen. The local town doesn't really have any rights in the matter.
Which is a little like saying you can't complain when I start pulling apart your house so I can assemble it in *my* backyard because my grandparents were the most popular kids in highschool.
@@vertigofy6699 nobody lived in or owned seahenge Museums are public institutions not private land?? The metaphors do not track at all. Kiddo needs to leave his hometown at some point. Maybe read some books.
That ending was honestly so beautiful and so well written Kinda reminds me of the style in "a series of unfortunate events" (one of the best book series and later television series ever)
I did an independent study in my senior year of college about keeping historical objects, art and artifacts alike, in their original context and environment when possible and when not possible simulating that environment as much as possible in museums. Granted, I focused on polyptych christian altarpieces but the concept is similar. The quote about Seahenge losing its sense of wonder in a museum is exactly the point I was making. I really want to do a masters or phd around the topic of what should be left in its original setting and what would do better in a controlled archive or museum setting while still being treated with the proper respect and care and with its context in mind. (Also with proper chains of custody and not just taking shit from the local community… looking at you British Museum)
Given the terrible history of destruction of ancient sites by 'local communities' in the UK, there is zero logic in allowing the local contemporary population to have a veto on what is a world heritage site. The best interests of all humanity, for all time, trump what the neighbours have to say.
@@lordpelagius5078 Ok? I'd (and a lot of others would also) argue that removing it from its original context itself destroys it. It's just a bunch of logs and a tree stump once it's no longer in its original place. It clearly meant a lot to people - preserving parts of it without preserving what actually made it special is nothing short of absurd hubris.
@@AlphaGarg So what would you prefer. To have it excavated and analysed being able to see the context of all the elements while they were in situ before preserving them and putting them on display? Or wait until the sea erodes it leaving the posts lying on the beach, losing the context and many of the elements as they would have washed away before preserving and putting what's left on display? Its not what people want but in this situation excavation was the best way to learn and preserve as much as possible before nature destroyed it all.
@@TheSjw7 I would prefer it stay in situ permanently. If preserving the state of the wood is important, build protective barriers around it instead of literally destroying the site and putting the remains in glass cases. It's not like we learned much of anything we didn't already know after the excavation, all that happened is the local people lost a historical and cultural landmark. That's not cool.
Anyone interested in this should also check out the ancient forest at Borth in Wales. When the tide is low the forest is revealed and you can see not only stumps but entire logs lying across the sand and root systems. When it's stormy even more of the forest is revealed, including further down the coastline in places like Aberystwyth. I might be incorrect but I think they found a preserved human footprint too.
I'm really glad that you started making TH-cam videos. I would have missed your content entirely if you didn't start making them. I really enjoy these. Thanks for thinking of the boomers like me who don't explore tiktok.
Wow look it's a different time now (On a serious note, I love this video. I saw it when it first came out and several times since then. There's something deeply emotional about it that I can't quite put my finger on.)
I'd love to see a video about your thoughts on the recent discovery of the sunken HMS Endurance. I've seen quite a bit of discourse online about whether or not we should bring it up to the surface. I personally think it should stay where it is. The sheer isolation of the vessal alone warrants leaving it alone.
Edit. Who could have predicted the worst character in this story wasn't "chainsaw guy" I hadn't made it that far before the novel below. Tldr, I live next to the oldest mounds in north America. Amazing places. Rant on how disgusting it is how these sites have been treated/destroyed/sold. Then local tales of graverobbing. I was having a nice morning. Enjoying some coffee while learning some archeology stuff. The story of the ass hole with a chainsaw really is engaging. Which then made me remember how in the states we dug up, commercialized, and subsequently destroyed so so many of the indigenous sites here. There are quite a few mound sites near where I live in Northern Louisiana. Two of them being, as far as I know, the oldest in North America. I've been to both Poverty Point, and Watson Brake. And the fact that people made these with baskets is really hard to wrap your mind around. One thing much more difficult to understand, is the private ownership of quite a bit of Watson Brake. To which they do not allow, or didn't then, public access. But have allowed some excavations. So yeah, we won't let the unwashed masses gaze upon the glory of "our" property. But yeah, come dig some shit up. I've met people from this area, who told me that after being up for like 3 days, decided they would sneak into a local mound. And then dig around and find artifacts. I believe he thought I'd be more impressed than angry. I mean yeah, ancient artifacts are amazing. And I would love to hold a piece of history in my hands. But I don't think I'll go grave robbing to do so. He told me specifically he found some of the artifacts in an actual grave. Wonder why we can't have anything nice.
I live in Norfolk and can confirm 4000 year old wood is the most interesting thing in the entire county.
I always thought it was the incest
To be fair, 4000 year old wood also was the most interesting thing in Greek mythology, so i'd say you're on the right track to greatness.
... _Or crippling child support depending on which lesson you draw from this._
Stonehenge isn't as old as the other monuments in the rest of the British Isles and Ireland but it is still 6000 years old so surely 6000 years old rock is the most interesting thing in the entire country England is a very boring s******* also being from Norfolk you're probably inbred tell your sister wife and uncle husband I said hello lol nfn
@Alexis Leskinen Hello fellow Norfolk person, even if it's not the English one. :)
My ex was from Wisbech. I wish I'd known about the old wood before I married him.
ancient greek student here: try “megadendric” as a tree-based alternative to “megalithic”. lithos=stone, dendros=tree :)
Surely you can stop being a student if youve been at it since ancient times and start teaching? Your english is great by the way.
These r the comments I live for
*megawood*
@@dorianleakeyWhy did you comment on their English proficiency?
@Good_Hot_Chocolate so the joke is that by "ancient greek student" the original commenter meant a student who studies ancient greek, however the response purposely misinterpreted it as a student whom was an immortal ancient greek person, for humorous effect. If that were true English wouldn't be their first language
i love the empathy you bring to all these stories. not just giving a voice to the ancient people who created the sites/artifacts etc, but to the current locals, to the people with modern religious connections, and even to the varying opinions and actions of archaeologists
He came off as very dismissive to the Pagan/Druidic communities
@@METALGEARMATRIX He did still defend their legitimacy though, which seems to be a rarity. It's wild how many people outright deny the legitimacy of modern Neopagan and Wiccan sects.
@@METALGEARMATRIX They don't really have any skin in the game on this issue - they're modern religions mostly rooted in the new age movement, and with no more connection to ancient sacred sites than anyone else in the country.
@@arfived4 There are some of us that try to model our worship off the ancient ways, hard to do when it was purposefully subverted and erased
@@histori6259 Yes, that is true. Its alittle refreshing. He doesn't understand but he at least respects the practioners
“You’re taking our Seahenge? Well, well, I’ll find a New Seahenge! A BIGGER one!”
something you mightve missed: the pagan dude in the middle of the photo of stonehenge at the 16 minute mark is King Arthur Pendragon. that is his name. not only is he a local legend, but he stands for general election as an MP in salisbury (the city where i live, 10 miles from stonehenge) every time.
So the true king of England is back and no one is making a big deal about it?
@@HushSkunk There's a few of them knocking around
Cool! Thanks!
@@williamchamberlain2263 did any of them have a scimitar lobbed at them by a moistened bint?
God I love Brits. Y'all are fucking hilarious.
i cannot express how glad i am that
a) the seabirds seem to not have suffered too horribly from the excavation, and that
b) arachæologist can date for as long as they have wood
Damn, really? I thought arachæologists had to stay celibate
10:50
þ
@@marshmallowbird6030 th
,
As a former local to the area around Stonehenge I thank you for mentioning the much less touristy, much less known, avesbury, the MVP of henges in the Wiltshire area.
What's it like being a farmer?
@@IGD-974 pretty fun, lol.
@@MarkThe_Nerd lol. What does ur daily life look like?
@@mihailmilev9909 id like to imagine its exactly like the show “clarkson’s farm” on prime video
I remember going to Avebury for a school trip in year 7, honestly one of the few things I remember happening from that long ago. Definitely want to go back and touch the vibrating rock again sometime as an adult
He is (I know this video is old, irrelevant) really kicking ass right now. His narration/voiceover work is truly impressive. His delivery, knowledge, timing, personality, and humor come thru perfectly. You have a long career ahead of you, buckle up!
Agree he just needs to curb the condescension
@@krystal9449disagree
I love seeing an outsider's perspective on the weird stuff that goes on in the UK. Archeologists and English Heritage vs local people, druids, and a hemp-smoking tree hugger is peak Norfolk.
NfN 🤣
"The NWT decided to team up with the NAU, and together they decided to tell people to fuck off." You have a beautiful way of summarizing events, Milo!
Surly humanity can do it again 😂
You know damn well, I'm gonna steal the "burial site with an upturned tree, where dead bodies are placed on top of it so birds can eat it" for my TTRPG-campaign. Shit's metal as fuck.
I believe “sky burials” are a real thing in the Himalayas, if you want to do more research.
They're called excarnation platforms.
look up zoroastrian towers of silence ;)
@@sleepingbee8997 That's what my mind instantly went to! Sky burial would be an excellent explanation.
good ol sky burial :-)
Hi Milo. This video inspired me to do my Architecture thesis on a suitable museum for the remains of Seahenge, right there in the field outside Holme. I first saw your video when it came out, visited the site a year later and did my thesis last year. Thank you so much for introducing me to this artefact in a way that truly gives voice to the many sides of this story!
Amazing! Can we see your project somewhere?
That's so cool!
Congratulations on your thesis!!
So, can the project be seen at any site? I think the whole story is unfathomably based and you shouldn't let it be forgotten.
Holme II has been significantly damaged since 1999 and is about halfway gone at this point. The two central logs had disappeared by 2013 and most of the outer structures were gone well before that. As of 2023, the inner ring itself is still visible but the top has broken off many of the planks, so they are lower than before, and some seem to have gone entirely. The side facing the sea seem to have been particularly hard hit and it is hard determine whether those planks are entirely gone or just worn down and covered by sand. If you get a chance to visit it, you should, it is likely to be gone within the next decade or two.
Honestly that's quite beautiful in my opinion. I feel that naturalist like sights should be respected. Yes it would be nice to keep it preserved for everyone to see but why? What right do you have to ogle the 'mysterious weird history thing' when those who made it weren't respected. It was placed there for a reason and may even have been intended to weather with time. Sometimes the beauty of nature can be ruined by freezing it in place and not allowing it to decay like the rest of us. Beauty is beauty became its a brief spectacle not a constant selfish display.
Just my opinion but I do really see why others would want to preserve rather than watch from afar. Really it should be up to the culture it impacts and the locals that live with it.
Do you know what is causing the damage? Just weathering from being exposed or vandalism?
@@jellyman140 Almost certainly both are factors. I would guess being exposed to the elements is the biggest, but I cannot say for sure.
@@paninibread1795 i really see where you are coming from but as someone studying archeology right now the decay and disappearing of historical traces and especially human traces is a cultural loss that cannot be undone no matter what, once something like a fossil or an artifact is destroyed that piece of history is most likely lost forever and that's exactly what archeology want to prevent, like that's the goal of archeology as a whole
@@paninibread1795weird history things! Who are u to say we can’t respect our ancestors or earth and original life…
That’s why or we are lost to this crap society. Weird history thing ffs 🤦♀️
Seahenge reminds me of the Fremont museum here in Utah. A massive Fremont settlement (ancient native American group in the Utah area) was found either before or during highway construction. They gave some archeologists some time with the site, and the bulldozed it for the stupid highway. It's mostly gone, and so frustrating. This kind of thing has happened in this state before, too and it's incredibly sad.
That makes me want to scream.
And all the sites in Glen Canyon under Lake Powell...
@@AzathothTheGreat as a Greek person
@@AzathothTheGreat I am currently internally screaming
@@AFuriousCrab yeah I mean at some point you have to weigh the importance of the site. Should we save the local Walmart because in a thousand years it will be history? Obviously no, but unless a site actually reveals something new or different about a culture it's not the end of the world. I know that's blasphemy to a lot of archaeologists but if we followed it tightly anywhere a musket ball or cannon was fired in wars past is a historic site today so enjoy no longer building anything lol.
Gaia is genuinely the first youtube sponsorship i’m actually going to support
Gaia *Industries* , don't mistake them for Gaia the woo woo pseudoscience quantum electric sun universe youtube ripoff.
Yeah, I'm bookmarking that for future reference
Pulling out a sustainable wooden water bottle promo during a story about watery wood being lost to human folly may just be the perfect ad
@@neoqwerty Actually, "industrees".
honestly, prices are pretty fair especially with the discount
26:04 You know you’ve got perfect God-tier hair when the locks are so luscious and full that they don’t even betray the fact that there’s a green screen behind them
I remember one of my Archaeology classes going over the question of "who owns artifacts?" and stuff like that, and sometimes the arrogance and entitlement of Archaeologists would be so frustrating. I'm glad they teach about avoiding that mindset more and advocate for humility these days, at least at my university.
Thing is, in 99% of cases the public has no interest in whatever archaeologists care about. Dark coloration in the earth? Old, nasty-looking potsherds? No interest. So they just assume that the prehistoric items fall into their responsibility.
@@Atanar89 Well there are actually quite a few cases where locals are actively butting heads with archaeologists over repatriation, which happens pretty often even today and has especially happened a lot in the past. Higher profile items in particular are often the target of debate over this because they're so popular and coveted, the Rosetta stone being one major example. One video covering this topic that was shown in one of my classes was this video: watch?v=5wpwYqwf4Qc
Examples of some of the worst arguments against repatriation given in that video include: "well it's a really important artifact, and really history belongs to EVERYONE, therefore WE should be allowed to decide where it gets to go even though we definitely do not represent everyone", and "but we were the ones who did the work >:( so it's at least 50% ours, even though Egypt was never given the chance to do any of the work because it was literally stolen from them when the French invaded. So it was forcibly stolen from the locals, but like, we still did stuff with it first, so it's at least partially ours", and "I just feel like it belongs to us because we had it for so long already. Sure, nowhere near as long as the native country it was taken from, but like, it wasn't being looked at in a museum for all those thousands of years! it only counts when people are looking at it, so, finders keepers!" etc. One guy even says that the British museum has "metaphysical ownership" with a straight face, which is the kind of attitude that my archaeology profs would want to slap him across the face for. The British museum is a bit infamous for hoarding the stuff they obtained via theft and colonialism, despite many of the original countries wanting the pieces of their history and culture back.
So there's very much a sense of arrogance and possessiveness involved with those types of people in the field that I hope becomes more diluted and fades away over time as better outlooks are taught and normalized.
Like the remains of dead black Childermas being return from the police bombing of the Move home?
Yes I remember my archaeology class looked over Seahenge as a case study and something of an example of what not to do in terms of preservation and consultation with locals/public
I agree with paleontologist and archaeologist love fucking over rural african tribes and the love fucking over pretty much all uneducated people that live in horrifying poverty that also aren’t caucasoid. A few years ago vice did a documentary about these French dudes that owned a massive marijuana corporation in Amsterdam and pretty much any western country that has a open market for legal thc products. In this documentary they traveled 9 days through Africa by plane to cross mountain then they traveled by boat in swamps and glades during a flood. They’d stay with poor rural families and were very respectful then when they got close to their destination the French dudes were giving out the equivalent of 10-20 usd to the tribe chieftains so they could get relatively guaranteed safety from the chance of any other tribe members and they were also lead through the rough terrain of the jungle. They gave out the equivalent of 20 usd to about 4 diff tribes so these guys spent 80 bucks to find the specific strain that has been so isolated from the entire world so it was so pure. Anyways this marijuana plant specifically had very very promising medicinal and psychoactive properties. Once they got there the interviewers asked them how much money would theses two French dudes would earn from it in a year and one of them resounded 40 million minimum by the end of the year. The translator told a tribes member and they were pissed that they were fooled after leading these men and carrying them on their literally backs barefoot like slaves while these dudes had steel toed boots protecting their feet in the jungle. When I saw that these ppl were being taken advantage of I was so damn angry and all these dudes needed was the seeds. These guys pointed guns at the Africans and forced them to lead them back. It made me so angry they could’ve given these tribes 5% minimum of what they earned off the seeds for 5 years. It would’ve completely changed the lives of these ppl and put them in a way better position. But instead these French dudes were being greedy and selfish (this doc made me understand why so many European whether western or eastern countries and Asian and European countries have hated the French for hundreds of years. If they just gave these tribes 1k each they’d have enough money to feed their small tribes for a year or 2. Typically these ppl only earn the equivalent of 10 usd a month after working 12 hour shifts or more everyday. It truly broke my heart seeing these . It so sad man. These African countries were once colonized and had their nations formed from colonial maps . They didn’t even get to choose their own land or countries. That’s why Africa has so many civil wars Bc you have so many ethnic backgrounds in one country it’s bound to lead to civil turmoil and civil war. Even today France is one of the only political powers thst still colonize African nations using nep colonialism to extract precious metals and jewels, sometimes the minors are enslaved into their work and some won’t ever see a dime from their work, even the ones who get paid only make like 3-5 usd a week. It made me so sick to my stomach seeing how these greedy French bastards just rape and pillage these ppls home stone French gov has also caused more coups and civil wars than Henry Kissinger ever could. I’m sure if Kissinger could see what the French are doing today he’d literally cream his paints and make a mess
"Everybody's favourite henge made of stone:... Avebury" This remark made me applaud out loud!
Having a pub within it is a definite benefit
Plus the weird shops
@@desmo750f1
Glad I’m not the only one 😂
I prefer Carnac, but ok.
I used to drive through here every day to and from work.
As one of my favorite online comics once said "learning history by destroying artifacts is a time-honored atrocity"
Damn, if that ain't the truth.
I don't quite understand, I agree it's an atrocity but what does the time-honored part mean?
@@prayingmantis8148 "this thing is great because we've done it for so long"--basically
@@harlequingnoll5 So it's an atrocity to time-honoured artifacts? I was thinking it was something like "you think that the present is more important than the past but the future will miss out so it's selfish to honour your own time above others"
@@prayingmantis8148 it's a combo joke. The time-honored also can mean tradition. Doing something over and over like celebrating a holiday.
As an ex Londoner, I cracked up when he said how beautiful a world would be without London. Couldnt agree more.
🎶“There’s no place like London”. 🎶
By the power invested in me by Barbara Windsor I herby revoke your right to call yourself a Londoner, ex or otherwise. You are now city-less and may the London Eye have mercy on your soul.
Who’s worse in yalls eyes, Londoners or the French?
@@FivePebbles-e8s french.
God damn romans still ruining it for all of us. What have they ever done for us?
I'm honestly struggling to see how they thought that taking it apart and moving it would allow them to learn its purpose, because hasn't it been suggested that henges and megaliths and, I guess, megawoods, were in certain locations and positions *for a reason?*
They had to move it because it was being destroyed by the sea. No monument = no chance to learn anything about it.
@@jonathonsmith8299 idk about that, it survived the sea for at least 1,000 years
@@jakel2837 It didn't survive the sea for 1000 years, it was built in an inland marsh, which the sea has eroded. It only became visible because the protective anaerobic muds had recently been stripped away by wave action. You can look at Historic England's report on Holme 2, which documents its deterioration in the last few years, a fate which would have befallen Sea Henge if it hadn't been removed.
Argument from incredulity. Just because YOU can't understand it, doesn't mean it doesn't make sense.
they just wanted it.
my favorite part of these "discoveries" are the fact they're usually not even unknown prior to the "discovery" date, whoever lives around there definitely already knows about it, probably has oddly specific folk tales about it, might even still hold ceremonies on that site. the "Discovery" date is just, whenever someone from outside of that town learned AND wrote it down.
As they say, history is written by the... writers of history.
Mt Everest, discovered 1849
The native Tibetan name was in a dictionary by 1721
but if something's been there your whole life, can you truly say you discovered it? it's like how nobody has ever claimed to have discovered the Moon. to discover something you have to have not known about it beforehand, so technically it's correct.
that said, it is still fun to laugh at people who "discovered" things that the locals already knew about.
Not in this case. It was buried and out of sight until revealed by shifting sands
@@bradymenting5120
🎉😅 This is awesome
I JUST DISCOVERED THE MOON 14 FEB 2024
As a middle school history teacher, I lovereee this content. Part of me wishes this was more kid-friendly so I could show my kids but then again, I like being able to escape into your aggressive and salty archeology rants on my drive home. Thanks for the great content!
Already the first minute of his witty banter is pure comedy gold. Somebody should splice together Milo's highlits and just let him rip for an hour; I love this guy, a true Treasure 😝
God it would’ve been so nice to watch videos of this quality in school instead of the old VHS tapes with audio so horrible I couldn’t understand a single word 😅
Though to be fair I have audio processing disorder so I can hardly make out what’s being said without captions regardless of quality 😭
The sad part is that the kids almost certainly have seen way more revolting things in their time on the internet and would probably love to watch this vid during a lesson - but you as a teacher may still get in trouble for it for some f*cking reason
Drag shows ok. But archeological content ? How dare you.
Cant swear in schools sadly
0:23 your right this video is 2 years old
*You're
@@theneoromanempire4854 you are correct to asume that i am bad at grammar
I'm reminded of the story a dendrochronologist told about getting the cutting bit of their core sampler stuck in a bristlecone pine. Now this was near the beginning of their trip and they didn't have another bit. So to retrieve the bit, which would be needed to take many more core samples, they cut down the tree.
It turns out the tree was the oldest living tree on the planet, about 5,000 years old. And they had just killed it.
Some how I fail to see how a 4,853 year old tree (the oldest known, living, non-clonal tree) is no older than a 4,359 year old flood........ There seems to be a several hundred year gap there.
I know math has never been my strong suit but I quake for the education system after seeing your math skills.
Wait, wait. I'm lost. Is it "the oldest tree's known to us, are no older than the date [of the Flood]" or is it "growth rings cannot be relied on"? Are we relying on them for a date or not? Either we are and the date is older than the Flood or we are not and you get to use hand waving to hand pick which parts of science you want to keep and which you want to conveniently ignore.
Oops, I used a different creationist date for the Flood. So hard to figure out which to use; AIG, JW, Ussher, etc. And I was also wrong about the date I used, it should have been 2348 BC. I forgot the post I grabbed the date from was from ~10 years ago.
@@donk1822 Huh. And all this time I thought scientists made hypotheses, hit the library to find previous relevant data and context, discussed their hypotheses with people of the relevant expertise, proposed a inquiry, standardized and documented their methods, produced data, analysed that data against the null hypothesis and any other relevant data they could get access to, discussed their assumptions and the strengths, weaknesses and limitations of their study, released it for review, revised it for errors and then presented their conclusion to the general public.
Didn't realise that counted as pissing.
@@luciesimpson6437 'And all this time I thought scientists made hypotheses'.
They do, like the ones that said, Venus is covered in Forests, there are canal's on Mars, Thalidomide is safe, torturing people in mental institutions will cure them.
They get paid for theories, ideas, even absolute lies on occasions. Whatever it is that's falling on your head, rest assured, it isn't all of potable quality.
@@donk1822 oh who is they huh
“Organized in an ellipse”
The people who built it trying to make a circle: :/
Possibly not. The Colosseum is also an oval, circles ain't special.
@@PlatinumAltaria That's true lol
They were trying to make a wheel. 😒
In Englands Bronze Age the people were very good at making circles since they lived in round houses, which are very well made circles, so unless Bronze Age Billy tried to just wing it in making a circle they probably did it elliptical shape.
I mean it would be harder to make an ellipse than a circle. Having created an ellipse for a horticulture project there's a few míre steps involves. A circle is easy. An ellipse was a too much fir my non mathematical brain.
Remember the time they discovered troy and used dynamite to get to the depth they thought it was only to realize the math was off and they went to deep realizing they blew one of the most sought after archeological sites of all time right to hell.
What?
@@____________838 Schliemann, bro :(
At least that was an accident. The image of the tree hanging from a crane is going to stick with me for years.
It's right up there with the one of a MASSIVE tree (like 15' diameter) that had been felled and some people were standing next to it like a hunter and their trophy. We will never see trees that big again.
@@EnigmaticRPG I've stood on a tree stump in California that was so big that the settlers there used it as a dance floor. Read accounts of a tree felled north of Seattle that may have been more than 400 feet tall. Words cannot truly express my shock and horror that people are so blithely willing to desecrate things that by all rights should fill them with humility and awe.
To be fair that was really one single guy that had just absolutely lost his marbles.
Oh wow it’s a different time!
Love that my feed keeps asking if I want to rewatch your older videos. Yes, TH-cam, I think I will.
You're a god! Thanks for finally coming to TH-cam! Your content is needed here
He is but a man. But the content is great.
Swiddly diddly piddly pop
Yeah since Sam O'Nella decided to up and vanish, it's been very much needed.
@@JoanWhack YES! I miss that Sam.
I'm someone with ancestral ties and who grew up in that part of the UK... I was only a kid when SeaHenge was excavated, but I can remember the media storm around it as it happened. If anyone is interested, TimeTeam were actually involved in its excavation - so, you need to look no further than that episode to see the events that played out documented.
So, for anyone who isn't aware/is interested:
The people who we now call the Iceni were culturally embedded into that landscape. Holme is at the end of the Icknield Way & the pre-Iceni people were drovers - migratory people who travelled in herds, from season to season.
East Anglia is covered in ancient droving routes - which is how Flag Fen fits into the picture, being, as you mention, an ancient causeway. There are a number of other well known/documented trackways - the Pedders Way, the Weavers Way...etc...
The thing about the dead bodies isn't random lore.
It is believed that SeaHenge I was the place where the dead were processed. The upside down oak being some form of representation of the Yggdrasil lore. SeaHenge II, on the other hand, is believed to be a place of birthing. I hope I don't have to explain the logs...
"It is believed..."
Believed by whom? Based on what?
@@beeble2003
A lot of the theory is knitted together really well by Francis Pryor in A Time Traveller's Tales from Britain's Prehistory ~ if you can get a hold of it.
Sure, as always, it can't always be proven 100%, but there's enough fragmentary evidence of our ancestors cyclical days to daily lives and rituals across the world that suggest that some form Proto Indo-European Yuletide-like ritual was being carried out there.
Thought Time Team must have been involved. I mean it was 1998, where's Tony, Phil and Mick?
@@beeble2003 I feel like you've never heard a folk story in your life-
@@wistymations The OP claims that something "is believed". It is entirely legitimate to ask who believes this thing and why, as this use of the passive voice suggests a generally held belief of the population at large. For example, the statement "it is believed that the Earth is flat" is objectively correct, in that there are people who believe that,. However, it's hugely misleading, as it suggests a generally accepted fact.
"It is a folk story" is a possible answer to the "why?" part, but the "who?" part is still important. There's a huge difference between "a few people believe" and "it is a generally accepted fact"
The only real reason I see for removing the site would be if the sea was eroding it away very quickly and it was likely to be lost. Even then, there's probably 20 different things they could have done to compromise with the locals and not lose the site.
It survived there for 4000 years and we have no real reason to believe it wouldn't last another 1000 but the EH made sure to destroy it before we could find out.
@@kacperwoch4368 The storm at the start was what exposed it. It was fine under the peat moss but with that gone and with the salt water and sun now hitting it, it could've deteriorated very quickly. The problem was they didn't seem to even consider if it was possible to protect it in place before just ripping it out.
Honestly we learned basically nothing and really what is the value in trying hard to preserve it if it is completely removed from the area it was made in and the context it was made in. It’s not the site anymore, it’s just a bunch of pieces of wood now. Preservation is an interesting conundrum but honestly things like this should just be left as they are. Studied, but not removed.
@@ConWolfDoubleO7 This one hundred percent. They didn't even *try* for compromise options of any sort, never mind if they weren't able to come to one.
@@ConWolfDoubleO7 But the locals had known about it for years already so it had been exposed before and probably would be again. Even if the excuse was for preservation, there's no reason to move it away from its hometown so I agree with your last sentence.
I usually watch these videos for fun and just to learn some cool new knowledge, but this guy is like a genuinely an awesome storyteller, I was hooked by the first couple sentences.
Even living trees are pretty wild sometimes. There's a deciduous tree I know of that got knocked on its side in a storm years ago, and _it's still alive._ It has adapted to its new sideways orientation by turning the branches in the ground into new roots.
I see all sorts of trees when I hike that are such weird shapes from breaking and healing through so many storms, trees that have huge dead sections and equally huge living sections, it's just nuts
There are trees in my town along a dirt path that are horizontal and partly submerged in a lake, and still alive. Nature is crazy.
my grandfather has an apple tree that is completely hallowed out yet still produces apples. its also on top of an old native american campsite and i know our conspiracy theorists will love that fact lmfao.
Trees really are just weird. There's instances of people taking grown trees, digging them up - roots and all - then flipping it upside down and burying it. The tree survives by going "fuck you" and turning its branches into roots and its roots into leafing branches. I've seen pics of them and they're *very* weird looking. You can find images of them by googling "tree planted upside down"
@@Headstash1080 The interesting thing happening there is that only the outermost layers of a tree are actually alive, with all the rest just passively pulling up water. So a hollowed out tree is no more dead than a solid one, albeit likely not getting as much water to its foliage
This whole story feels like you tugged one thread, and this runaway landslide of story just dragged you away. Amazingly cool.
Thank you!! I try to present my stories with a good flow so it means a lot that I seemed to have achieved that!
@@miniminuteman773 if it serves you for anything, your melodic choices for spliting chapters are also on point.
They produce no humming noise no the TV and are comfortable on headphones.
Volume balance is also spotless for every transition, no need to mute or change volume even a single time.
These might seem small, but even PBS Eons messes up these details once to often, regardless of their nearly perfect scripts and presentations
@@miniminuteman773 I enjoy the little tangents.. they make for a natural telling of the story, reminiscent of VSauce or CGPGrey. It just seems natural to "tug on the thread" and follow little tangents for a bit (Like Buster Nolan) before you get back to the story at hand.
@@miniminuteman773 id love to see more stories like this!
@@miniminuteman773 It's been a few years now but I remember hearing rumors of something like this right off the coast of Florida , might be worth looking into .
Aw man, as soon as you used the same image of Seahenge more than twice, I immediately thought: "it's because there are no new photos of the site because it was destroyed." I'm pretty sad I was right
It's still kind of strange that there weren't more good photos of it available. You'd think a lot of people would like to photograph it.
There's an entire episode of Time Team on it where you can have a really good look. They said the sea was going to swallow it up and rot the wood before long, now that it was exposed. It would be gone by now, either way.
It truly is sad that the second site was destroyed
Fortunately the first has been preserved in a museum for future generations to enjoy
WOW LOOK ITS A DIFFERENT TIME NOW! I'm so happy my brother showed me this channel. I have loved history, archeology, and geology since I was a young child exploring places like cliff palace in Mesa Verde, the ruins of multiple western mining towns in Utah's south and the Uintah Basin, or even the cliff dwellings near manitou springs Colorado where I live near now. this channel is one of the most educational, self aware, and enjoyable presentations of history and its many facets I've ever seen. Keep it up Milo, you're amazing and as a 25 year old tradesman, if I ever go to college you will be to thank.
This is fascinating and tragic. I am reminded of a pair of in-situ dinosaur fossils in Dinosaur National Park in Canada who had protective structures built around them. One was a small(dog-sized) ancestor of a Triceratops that was left as is in the rock with a plexiglass and wood pyramid built over it to protect it from people and the weather.
The other was a fully adult duck-billed dinosaur, who, as the story goes, was found by a park ranger in the late 1910s with part of the tail sticking out one side of a hoodoo and part of the head on the other side. With help, the part of the rock containing the fossil was cut loose and carefully lowered to flat-ish ground beside the hoodoo. Unable to get large enough vehicles in to get it out, a building was built around the rock and it was studied there. The building has been replaced a few times, but it still stands and at least when I went, could be accessed on official park tours in an otherwise closed off area of the park.
Its unfortunate that such an approach wasn't done in this case.
So, how do you do that in an intertidal zone? It is not unfortunate, it is impossible.
@@wiretamer5710 Build an enclosure that would keep it as safe as possible. The primary concern is people, no?
To be fair it may not have been possible, but what happened here is people who did not own the site treated it as their property and destroyed it in order to preserve its components parts, and very arrogantly told locals they had no rights over it, when they had as much right as anyone else. They also told archeologists not involved in the removal they couldnt observe it and Time Team, the TV show they could have one guy filming, then allowed camera crews from all media outlets to come and film. Because it wasnt their property to say who could and couldn't come. It may have been better to try and cover it up again.
@@voicetest6019 so basically create the Netherhlands 2?
In that area the tides are between 2.5 and 5.5 m, and the site was about 230m out from the dunes, about 370 m near where a creek flows into the sea.
It would basically mean creating an 800m long, 10m high dike straight through a nature reserve and breaking up a beach in an area prone to erosion.
@@HappyBeezerStudios Or an enclosed tomb.
Wait seahenge "is" a thing? I thought it was just a joke for when Stonehenge was placed in water on Civ 5.
My thought exactly
Same here lol
Well, it isn't really a "henge" since a henge is the ditch and possible earth walls around the circle so the name is more or less clickbait the newspapers or locals made up, but it was real.
There might however be something closer to the CIV5 bug outside Orkney. There seems to be an actual henge with stones on the bottom of the sea outside Orkney that might be around 1000-1500 years older then stonehenge. If it is it was still built near the water and flooded with raising sea water levels.
Josh Gates from Expedition unknown dived on it a few years back but evidence was inconclusive. A LIDAR study of the place is really needed to prove or disprove the place.
Sometimes life might be stranger then fiction. :)
#FeatureNotABug
Well then, I guess I have to change the plans for the statue of libersea, then...
*That one's actually supposed to be in the water*
I know this from somewhere I just don't know where from
A lot of archaeologists forget that *context* is just as important to sites as the artifacts themselves. A pot's meaning is different if it's in a house, or a palace, or a silo. So too is the meaning of a landmark by where it is. A skyscraper in a city would have very different meaning than one in a small town.
We probably would have been able to tell more about Seahenge and its purpose if it had been left there. And the town would have more meaning and happiness.
Honestly, removing those wood timbers feels like moving all the stones of Stonehenge to a museum.
I agree with the sentiment, but at the same time I agree as to why it was removed: dire preservation. Unlike sites like Stonehenge, Seahenge was in danger of being destroyed by the sea as what happened to Holme II. So while it is important to let a site stay where it is for the sake of context as you said, is it more important than the actual integrity and overall survival of the site itself for future generations?
@@srslothingtonThe site is no more-- it was removed from its location, and thus is no longer a site. Future generations cannot visit the site. Its remains are kept in a museum to be gawked at without locational context, and thus lose their meaning.
Of course archaeologists document where exactly everything was standing
It was going to be destroyed if they had left it there
. And I can assure you that archaeologists are entirely trained professional people who are completely aware of the importance of context. For anybody to claim that they are not it's just a demonstration of their own ignorance.
@@hobosorcerer See my above question, while it certainly doesn’t have the same charm as it would had it been left as is, it’s better to at least have it somewhere rather than nowhere.
Nvr knew about this site, so fricking awesome. Love me them “henges”.
Your enthusiasm is contagious!!
On the opposite side of the UK, in Borth, the roots of a petrified forest got revealed on a beach after a storm in 2014. There had always been a local legend about an ancient kingdom out in Cardigan bay, that got flooded by the ocean because of the carelessness of the Prince. People took these stumps as a sign that the kingdom had really been there in one form or another many years ago. They said you could still hear the bells of the sunken churches, being rung by the tides.
The part about the bells is a haunting thought. Also makes me think of Doggerland.
Yeah the bell thing is metal af, holy crap
We get that in Norfolk also.
They're old Fishermen's Tales.
@@AccidentalNinja like a source of the myth to some extent, weather the memory of those who lived there or the artifacts fishermen found
were brits even christian back then? as far as I know church bells are a catholic tradition
New archaeologist here! This truly is a fascinating and tragic tale, and hopefully it will never happen again. Today, CIfA demands that all its members “take into account in the planning and execution of historic environment projects the legitimate concerns of individuals or group(s) about places, objects, human remains or intangible heritage that they believe to hold significant cultural or religious meaning or connotations” and that “members shall consult where appropriate with those affected individuals or group(s), with the goal of establishing a mutually beneficial working relationship”. Clauses like these that we are taught as gospel today are no doubt the result of cases like this, and I have to thank you for making this case more well known. As we move into an era of justified accountability discussions like this will become all the more important, and I hope that we will all learn the best ways to learn about and protect our collective human heritage without discord or hatred.
I like that there are these guidelines set in place, though it does feel like they could still be subverted, particularly in the case where a group isn't well known, or had no desire to communicate with the archeologists. How do you deal with the possibility that a group unknown to you could have great culture connection to a place (or would if they even knew about it)?
ethical guidelines for the treatment of artifacts have been in place with most archaeological/exploration entities for over a century (be it good or bad), even Arthur Evans had a list of things he would and would not do at a time not too much later from Schliemann detonating dynamite at Hissarlik. While ethics have changed through time, most organizations and institutions came to a version of the above statement in the 1960s and 1970s with the post modern paradigm change. CIfA itself would have been well established by the late 90s and I would wager that the code of conduct would have wording in it similar to the current one if not at the very least something along those lines (I am too young and disassociated from UK archaeology to know). The issue still arises where people will do something because they can, not because they should, and entities with enough clout or finances can circumvent "ethics statements" or legal battles that may surround them, take the legal disaster that is NAGPRA in the US for example. To me Holm 2 is much more interesting and potentially provides a lot more information of the material culture of late Neolithic/early Bronze Age peoples of the south eastern UK. Imagine if groups had worked together with Holm 1 instead of playing at being Time Team.... we might have actually learned something useful.
Time team did a special on this. Every one was consulted but the thing was getting destroyed by the sea. So it was moved. They also built a version of the henge on dry land.
Either the thing was moved or it got washed out to sea.
I'm with Milo on this, with the nature of costal sites like this there isn't much to be gained from excavation and the potential presence of worthwhile artifacts is small. Listening to local outcry to not disturb it would have been a much better use of finances. Not only that but exposed costal sites usually aren't exposed for too long, they are either destroyed (by vandalism or nature) or rapidly reburied by the same forces that exposed them. Also at the time the site was exposed our knowledge of the preservation of water logged wood was much different than it is now, the preservation process was probably incredibly damaging, replacing water in the cellulose with PEG or another chemical that can distort the wood or never fully stabilize the artifact, resulting in its slow destruction, or expensive indefinite retreatment (ie Vasa).
also most time team episodes are on youtube, if anyone cares th-cam.com/video/KgK-o3uE3Tg/w-d-xo.html
I've never felt physical pain from just hearing descriptions of an action
This was a painful watch, I sincerely hope we the big Archeology organizations can learn from their mistakes.
why? holme II is almost gone now because they left it there, at least seahenge is preserved
@@HarrDarr they destroyed seahenge they didn't preserve it.
@@Phil9874 what do you mean? all the parts of seahenge are all preserved
@@HarrDarr welllll.... apart from the part they chainsaw'd.
@@HarrDarr are they, though?
If someone cut you up and took out every organ, then properly cleaned them and put them in formaldehyde, were you actually preserved?
I played one of your videos for my best friend tonight, and a few chuckles in, they said to me “that young man is a treasure.” We both love your sense of humor and talent for engaging your audience. Keep up the excellent work!
Hey. I'm in and out of hospital and in the greatest pain of my entire life. I just wanted to say thank you for uploading this, I'm an anthropologist among other things and fascinated to learn about this. I really enjoy your content and for the duration of the video I focused on your words instead of my pain. Keep on keeping on
so ready to learn about seahenge and all the potential awful archaeology stories about it!
I’d genuinely be interested in your extended take on “The Council Of British Druids” because they are *interesting* and I very much enjoy your presentation and analysis of *interesting* things.
th-cam.com/video/39jpILKe64w/w-d-xo.html
I wanna thank you. You're one of the few people my baby cat lets me watch to fall asleep rn without attacking my tablet❤
I think removing the site probably destroyed much of it's significance. It is probably reasonable to assume the exact placement of the site and the distance and orientation the individual pieces had to one another was a crucial part of it.
Displaying it the way it is displayed now, feels like someone sorting a puzzle by the color of the idividual pieces and claiming it is what was supposed to happen to the artwork depicted by the complete puzzle.
They made an accurate diagram of the exact positions and rotations of every piece.
Not saying what they did is good, but I am saying that this reason for it being bad isn't applicable.
@@grantdraus7449 An irrelevant side-note which might qualify as a "fun fact" on a less deplorable topic most certainly does NOT invalidate the reasoning.
You have met a perceived ignorance with far, far greater ignorance. Very fitting, given the story presented in the video.
@@apenguininthemist855 no that's not a side note.
Did you read my comment?
It was purely about the fact that moving the pieces physically from their original location was not a bad thing on its own, in and of itself.
The reason being is that we in deep detail know the original places of each piece.
There are other reasons this is bad, but that is not one of them.
Increase your reading comprehension skills before deciding to use such big words.
As a local, it was actively breaking up in the storms. If the archaeologists left it, there'd.be nothing left and we'd also no nothing about it. Which is exactly what happened to the second sister site nearby.
I am local to it all. It appeared from time to time.
How it is now displayed is ok I suppose but they should’ve left it where it was and figured out how to protect it in situ.
The site long predates the existence of druids on Britain.
If it’s religious in nature it would relate to whatever the local pre-Celtic culture was.
They could have used it, but who knows. Though if anyone is having crows eat peoples’s eyes it’s certainly the pre-celtic people.
It goes to show how much our modern society has lost its way
Same thing happened in my town.....I was absolutely furious... The oldest standing structure and the first house built, in the 1600's (Stamford CT) was picked up and moved several miles away to make room for a new police department....you can't just uproot historical places and put them somewhere else. They are a part of the landscape, a part of the soul of the place. With LIDAR and other imaging technology that is non-invasive, hopefully we will be able to keep more sites in situ. Well made videos! I'll have to visit that site some day.
Do you know where the house was moved to and if it's open to the public? Might want to visit as I'm in the area.
0:18 Hey look, it's a different time now!
Great video as always, but I have a comment or two on the Druids. Historically they have almost bugger all to do with megalithic henges and other such ancient sites, the Druids were the priestly class of the Celts, who arrived in Britain around 1000BC, millennia after the construction of seahenge and hundreds of years after the last megaliths were erected in Europe. They may well have made use of the sites they found in some way, but they certainly didn't make them, and most of the Neo-Druidism stuff that happens at Stonehenge was invented by romantics in the Victorian era.
Yup
Boom!
Hard Agree.
Well at least it’s their religion. Skeevy still, but far less so than white people rewriting Native American religion. The people who built Stonehenge don’t really have any descendant outside of the modern people of the British Isles. Maybe the died out or maybe they were absorbed, but these people are the closest thing they’ve got.
If you want to fuck around with your own ancestor’s religion, that’s fine with me. Maybe my opinion would be different if my areas hippies were less *colonial*.
It's kind of poetic when you think of it, modern "druids" make a bunch of stuff up about archaeological sites, just as the Celtic druids very likely would have picked up on and appropriated ancient neolithic sites in their beliefs back around the roman times.
I'm a conservator and as much as I like preserving stuff, sometimes you have to make compromises. Conservation ethics is a whole field on it's own and I think this would be a great case for discussion both in archaeology and conservation education (probably already has)
That’s exactly what I was thinking.
Im studying preservation. That being said, I’m gonna send this case study to my Cohort.
What would the compromise here be? I don't see how the archeologists in this situation have any right to touch this site at all. Preservation in this instance means entirely leaving it alone imo
@@guy-sl3kr ok so I work with paintings so this is not quite my area, but I had a guest lecturer at university who specialised in waterlogged archaeological wood, and she talked about in situ-conservation. It means that if an object can’t be excavated and brought up to the surface you basically bury it on the bottom of the ocean where it was found. I’m thinking they should have done something similar with this, either covering it or just leave it alone. And if you want people to be able to see the object on the surface you could instead construct a replica.
What compromise? They didn't preserve the site, they dismantled it and thereby destroyed it. They turned it from an ancient structure into a bunch of artifacts.
So being from Norfolk and also being a Dark Age reenactor (it's relevant I promise), I can confirm that the work done at flag fen on not only the sea henge timbers but the causeway present at the site itself, is absolutely fucking phenomenal. Though I accept that moving Seahenge away was a bit of a dumb decision the process taken to preserve the wood is insane. They are still working on preserving parts of the wood from the causeway and you can literally watch the process happening as the preservation area is also an exhibit. They are also a bit sheepish about the fact that they dealt with the seahenge timbers because they realise its not a particularly proud moment to have ripped out a stupidly important historical site, that the people if Norfolk in its entirety are very annoyed about. (The dark age reenactor bit is relevant because a Viking and Saxon reenactment weekend takes place there every year and I've seen the exhibit at least 4 times. When I say reenactment weekend I dont mean larping around in leather with chunks of foam, I mean historical teaching in an outdoor provision)
Was it still being used for rituals, or did pagans not realize it was there until it was exposed by the storm?
@@jturtle5318no one knew about it till then.
This is how to solve every world problem:
1. Get a room and gather various scientific tools.
2. Litter the tools about the room.
3. Put famous TH-camrs miniminuteman, etymology_nerd, Vsauce, and rainbolt in said room.
4. Let them speak and play with the tools for around 40-60 minutes.
5. Tada! They will have figured out the entirety of where they are (rainbolt)
why they are (Vsauce) and the entirety of human history (etymology_nerd and miniminuteman), however as this discussion was for introduction to eachother, disregard information given by content creators.
6. After the TH-camr scientists are done meeting eachother, ask about any problem or threat to humanity.
7. Allow them to discuss aforementioned problem until a consensus is reached.
8. Employ consensus given by the group.
🎉🎉THE WORLD IS SAVED🎉🎉
A story beautifully told. I actually shouted “no!” when you got to the center oak being chainsawed, it just felt so viscerally wrong. And the reveal of the second site at the end got me just a little misty. I’m so looking forward to sticking with your channel!
I think the instrument at the beginning of the “Stonehenge” song is a Carnyx, an ancient Celtic battle horn that was often carved into the heads of serpents, horses, dragons, and other really neat things. It’s got a really cool haunting sound.
It sounds like a didgeridoo! That's really cool.
That song was pretty groovy though
totally thought it was a didgeridoo but now I hope it's a carnyx just for the extra touch of history that gives it
If anyone is interested in hearing the Carnyx in all its haunting glory: th-cam.com/video/HHJSd9nigSA/w-d-xo.html
It’s got a lot of range, but on the lower notes it definitely sounds kinda like a didgeridoo.
Did they use one with, or without 'tongue' in the song?
I've been to the Seahenge exhibit in Lynn and I must admit I quite enjoyed it. I remember seeing the controversy on the news but I didn't realise how much English Heritage steamrolled the locals. At least however it was kept reasonably local and is completely free to view, but it would have been nice if they'd found a way to protect it in situ.
Too difficult placement, and having it chopped with a chainsaw is probably a good reason too to remove it... You also have to consider that when they decide so, they really don't know if they are going to find anything below the stump/logs, like remains, artifacts, ashes, etc (which is pretty common). Now you know the end result, which is that there was nothing interesting.
@@grievuspwn4g3 Holme is tiny. It's basically a pub and some houses, so there isn't any existing museum they could use. Really nice fish and chips though. I think King's Lynn was basically the closest museum there was that actually has the facilities to take it.
@@grievuspwn4g3 There is no obvious right place to put it, at least in my eyes. Sure, it was found in Holme, so it 'belongs' to the people of Holme, right? At the same time, it was found in Norfolk county, so maybe it should be put in a place where the most people of Norfolk county could enjoy it. It's just as much their history as it is that of the People currently living in Holme.
The same argument can be transferred to England as a whole.
Then there's also the preservation and economical side. It just doesn't always make sense to keep archaelogical sites near their finding place. It would be stupidly expensive and sometimes impossible.
Don't try to enable this by saying "at least it was kept local". It doesn't matter if it was moved 10 m down the road, the fact is it was destroyed and stolen.
@@bavarianpotato in this case it does make sense to keep it where it was found, it had been there over 4000 years without anybody interfering with it, it wasn't costing anything.
That sounds like a bad excuse made by people to steal historical monuments. Most of these monuments have been hidden for thousands of years without any money put into them.
It's a very European Colonial idea that we can just take history "for the greater good"
16:25 Now THAT is some pure distilled late '90s Internet right there.
For all you talked about him I expected Buster Nolan to have some important part in this story, like him tying himself to the tree and almost drowning by the morning tides for days, but I guess he was just a cool guy who made Stonehenge montages on Windows Movie Maker
Buster Nolan is not a man who would perform a cheap stunt such as you say. He's a skilled exceptionally clever man when it comes to trees. They wanted him for his knowledge, not a stunt protester that can be denounced and be made out as a nutter by the media. Knowledge and argument is better than gimmicks. Buster Nolan I take my hat off too you, your a top man...👍🏻
I literally teared up when you started talking about Holme 2 😢 a wonderful ending
0:25 -WOW! LOOK! IT'S A DIFFERENT TIME NOW!!!
“Fuck you”
-miniminuteman
Obligatory profanity-laced come-uppance.
Oh wow look!... it's a different time now
@@Stoplooking69 oh look its a different time now!
Wow look its a different time now
7:05 Not Milo looking at his toothbrush immediately after it goes out of his mouth to make sure there's no potential residue visible
Milo this is your best yet! I used to teach at an outdoor education centre on the North Norfolk coast, and you tell this story better than I ever did.
Totally off topic, but the information about growth rings reminded me about it. I felled a dead american elm, 43 inches wide at it's widest point, and it only had 78 growth rings. It had been dead for about 10 years, but there was still a little bit of sap in the lowest sections of the stump. Another one that I cut, 52 inches at breast height, had 84 or 89 growth rings. It had been dead for 3 years, no new growth, no leaves, and the bark was peeling off of it. One year to the day that I finished cutting it, there is new growth sprouting from the stump.
That stump may have been placed with the roots up to, in part, prevent new growth from sprouting from where it was cut. Anything cut in late spring to early summer holds moisture a bit better than something cut in the fall or winter.
I’ve heard a lot of stories of folks making archeological finds on their land and either concealing or, frequently, destroying them. Specifically for reasons like this. Because they don’t want archeologists and “the government” stomping around, digging up their land and making a general mess of things.
yeah, I heard if that too. especially big projects like highways which involve a ton of money and all of a sudden they remove a bronce age grave hill (Germany) and to forgoe the costs and time delay it just disappears.
@@siiiriously3226 or in America the government or museum will confiscate your land without compensation
Same thing happens if endangered species are found on private property by the landowners. Rather than being excited that they have something cool on their land, they are more concerned about the bureaucratic red tape and nosy government officials controlling what they can do on their land, and those endangered species quietly disappear…
There are a lot of laws in the UK for this reason.
By law any building built before 1950 must have an archeological dig done beneath it if it is to be demolished
@@StarWarsomania Which is anything, is even more of an argument to NOT give these shitstains any say, and fine anyone who destroys priceless heritage till they learn...
People often assume that while violating ethics is bad, at least it gives us valuable knowledge we otherwise wouldn't have.
I have yet to see a single real instance of this actually being the case.
Sacrifices "have" to be made in the pursuit of knowledge! Like that clam that was killed to judge its age, found to be one of the longest living things (up until it was killed), and we have no clue how much longer it may have lived. I adore science but like... ffs
@@EnigmaticRPG well part of science is not knowing how big you fucked up til after the fuck up. You still learn something, just not what you wanted to learn.
@@EnigmaticRPG freal like just wait for it to die right?
@@mondaysinsanity8193 or even better, take it as a sign that maybe you should look for a way to judge its age without killing it.
I feel like maybe we would've learned more if they just left it
The only reason the pyramids are in Egypt is because they wouldn't fit in the British Museum.
One only has to look at the Elgin Marbles from the Parthenon and the British Museums treatment and refusal to even discuss returning them to know that Seahenge wouldn't have a happy ending either.
The Elgin Marbles are only in the british museum because mr. Elgin was short of cash. They were lying in his garden gathering moss. He wasn’t even an archaeologist, he was just a vandal.
There was a recent discussion between the British Museum and a Greek counterpart about loaning them to the Greek museum but this was firmly quashed when the prime minister insisted on turning it into a diplomatic incident (for no good reason I will add.)
@@intergalactic92 it's a discussion that's been going on since at least the 80s. The big sticking point was that Greece lacked the facilities to house and store them properly (ignoring how the BM treated them). So Greece spent a pile of money building a state of the art museum to house them, and even show as they're supposed to be, not like how they are at the British. And in true British fashion, they moved the goal posts.
The notion of lending them back to Greece is insulting. It's like if a guy steals your car and then let's you rent it back to drive around occasionally. They know if they give them back, all the other countries the British robbed would be demanding their stuff back.
Cry about it (eats chip)
@@tigerspirit1917 Greeks should just pull off an "Italian Job"-style heist, break into the British Museum and take back their marbles. Steal from the rich and all that...
What is it about the British culture and stealing?
@@tigerspirit1917 'typical British fashion' I'm british, Greece can have them back. Wanna stop throwing around generalisations?
Respectfully, the Ring of Brodgar is on Orkney (Scotland), not England or Ireland. Highly recommend a visit to Neolithic Orkney to see Skara Brae, the Ring of Brodgar, Standing Stones of Stenness, Maeshowe, and the currently-being-excavated Ness of Brodgar 👍🏻 really interesting for a few days' visit and some beautiful scenery nearby, too 🏴
You also forgot the standing stones in kilmartin and the burial stone circles that are there too.
And england wasn't there 4000 years ago
@@mikesands4681Not until 927 AD
I love the pics of Brodgar, I'd love to visit it.
love when people say 'england' when they mean either great britain or the uk bc like. man fuck scotland wales and northern ireland i guess
"Wow, look... It's a different time now!!!" I said, getting play-edly
I remember this happening. I live a couple of hours south of where Seahenge was located and was 11 at the time. At least us Brits are ecumenical, we don't only desecrate other countries ancient sites we do it to our own as well. English heritage does do a lot of good with preserving/maintaining sites across the country but they can be devastatingly heavy handed.
I saw the Time Team episode featuring it. Have you ever seen it?
Honestly I am so proud of you for getting your first sponsor. You are genuinely interesting and fun to listen to, so I’m looking forward to more people learning about how cool you are.
Two minutes in and I’m astounded at the writing. Rarely does a person both know his shit and have the ability to deliver it in such a captivating way. Another fuckin banger 🤘🏻
"Everyone's favourite henge made of stone...... Avebury." Which if you talk to a local, yes do so, we will tell you to go there because, its, bigger, you can touch the stones, and it's free. Also because its either too warm or too wet, the village has a pub, food and beer. You're welcome. I'm so glad that was the answer, i was half way through thinking, Ugh not Stonehenge again
I'm so happy I found this channel. As a person with ADHD I usually struggle with listening about some historical stuff, but not here. Thank you for the knowledge!
I am an historic tour guide.
I do my best to give accurate info in tiny nutshells... and add humor to, hopefully, get people to retain the knowledge.
So, if I may say:
You are a master storyteller.
A raconteur!
Bravo!
I really love your delivery... and I hope you continue to educate us!
😁👍
rewatching this, it reminds me of the case of the hilton of cadboll stone in scotland, a pictish symbol stone which has a long history from being torn apart to become a gravestone, to being put in the british museum and now the scottish national museum and conflict with locals that lead to a reconstruction being built in the town (which i was lucky enough to visit!) - sian jones has a great study on it with some great oral history. i think there's also an even more recent conflict with the lower half being discovered and locals wanting it to remain in the town, so im interested to see what happened there
Thank you so much for making this video: I recently visited this area with my Dad, and I mentioned Seahenge to him so we went to the bird sanctuary and the King's Lynn museum. We wouldn't have gone there without this video, and it was interesting that the first thing my Dad said on learning about the controversy in the museum was "Why were they protesting?" and I could fill in some of the blanks the museum didn't cover. Despite this, if you are in the area, I highly recommend visiting the museum - they only have two exhibition rooms and an adorable gift shop, and tickets are free in the off season! When we were there, a group of local school children were visiting and the museum was pulling out all the stops to make sure these children knew the history of the place they lived in
So glad that you came to youtube, my dude. It feels like a whole new scale for you to climb and achieve those dreams of sharing accurate knowledge and your pure enjoyment that is the field of archeology in all its aspects, both great and heartbreaking moments!!
He's fucking awesome. I'm not on TikTok so I'm also very glad.
So eye opening to hear a story that paints archeology in a more unfavorable light. Gives a good idea of the nuance of archeological digs.
Also that Steppe Mammoth joke was great
People having a deep spiritual connection to something they either didn't know existed or didnt care about before it was popular always amuses me.
As infuriating and puzzling as the decision to remove Seahenge from the site is, this is an amazing piece of work. Immediately fell in love with your channel!
It’s not infuriating or puzzling, it was the logical thing to do. Seahenge is better off in the hands of professionals who know how to preserve it. Why would you want it left in the hands of some idiot townsfolk?
@@HarshDude126 Your comment can be used to justify digging up Native American holy sites/graves because you think that the people who are part of the sites' heritage are "idiot townsfolk". Go fys.
Its made of wood. After being exposed it would have rotted away within years.
There was allways a chance we could have learned more by excavating it.
If we had left it there. It would be gone now, and wed allways be left wondering if it held secrets to pur past.
Also worth noting this place was built 4000 years ago. No person alive in that town was a part of its culture. And almost certainly most of them wereent even related to the builders.
The druids are the same. They go to stone henge. A site built most likely not by druids. And do a bunch of fske worship they made up.
Its a religion they know nothing about because its been lost. And the people that practiced it are also mostly gone
After the storm exposed the wood from the mud and silt, it was going to be destroyed by the sea. Some did argue that it would have been better to let nature destroy it, and ok I guess, but it's not puzzling.
@@HarshDude126 Because they wanted it to stay where it was?
It's like walking up to an old church and going "We should break these stones and ship them across the country"
When I was a child my parents had a holiday caravan at Holme-next-to-sea but sea henge had not been exposed then. As I recall the main reason for removing it was once it was exposed to sea and elements is wasn't going to last long anyways. As someone has mentioned here the 2nd henge is quickly disappearing. Coastal erosion in this area is a major problem.Further along the coast line its eroding at an alarming rate. You can walk along some benches and see abandoned houses half washed away.
perhaps that is true, but they rushed this and were so incredibly arrogant about what they were doing and towards locals who opposed it. They also did it in sucha hurry, it was gone before they could see any destruction by the sea.
@@dorianleakey you are assuming the one-sided argument from the video is true and the whole truth, did the locals oppose it, did a majority oppose it or just a couple and 1 journalist
Huh. I'd assumed that the bird conservationists just *really wanted* the tourists gone. Good to know.
Thanks for this information. I was already wondering if this was part of the coast with this erosion. So the removal was the best thing to do.
A Dutch author wrote a novel where this erosion played an important role.
@jannetteberends8730 it was the only the best thing for the historical organizations. As Milo put it amazingly, contemporary archaeologists often think they have a right to every site when they do not. If the locals didn't want it gone it should never have been removed. Even if it would have been lost from erosion so what? Not everything is meant to last forever.
I will say that you quoted the Unites States property law.
In England, English Heritage has the right to take over sites that are deemed "archeologically significant". It's not some group of amateur archeology enthusiasts, it's a governmental organization that oversees all archeological sites in England, and once a place is declared a "heritage site" they dictate what happens there.
When you watch as many Time Team reruns as I have, you realize how serious they are. Speaking of, I'm pretty sure Time Team did an episode on Seahenge, they were there in 1999. I'm pretty sure they did the recreation or helped with it.
They did one of the re-creations, there have apparently, been at least two.
Also in the UK if something is below the high tide mark it belongs to the Crown.
Yeah, that section of the video was very US-centric and didn't seem to understand that not everywhere is like that. In particular, the idea that a town is essentially sovereign over its land simply does not apply in the UK.
Yes, Time Team did do Seahenge...they were involved in the excavation and reassembly.
th-cam.com/video/KgK-o3uE3Tg/w-d-xo.html
Seahenge is a common joke for civ 4-6 players. Sometimes when Stonehenge is built near water, it can be seen semi or full submersed 😅
I think in the UK, all archaeological finds are reported to the government and they have to decide the fate of the object - they'll almost always consider land ownership as the sole right to the item and guess who owns the sea bed in the UK - The Crown Estate - AKA the Queen. The local town doesn't really have any rights in the matter.
Legally no. But historically and on identity matters, they have rights indeed.
Which is a little like saying you can't complain when I start pulling apart your house so I can assemble it in *my* backyard because my grandparents were the most popular kids in highschool.
@@dokusa2173 your analogy makes no sense
your house = seahenge
my backyard = museum
popular kids = royal family
highschool = UK
👽:))
@@vertigofy6699 nobody lived in or owned seahenge
Museums are public institutions not private land?? The metaphors do not track at all. Kiddo needs to leave his hometown at some point. Maybe read some books.
That ending was honestly so beautiful and so well written
Kinda reminds me of the style in "a series of unfortunate events" (one of the best book series and later television series ever)
I did an independent study in my senior year of college about keeping historical objects, art and artifacts alike, in their original context and environment when possible and when not possible simulating that environment as much as possible in museums. Granted, I focused on polyptych christian altarpieces but the concept is similar. The quote about Seahenge losing its sense of wonder in a museum is exactly the point I was making. I really want to do a masters or phd around the topic of what should be left in its original setting and what would do better in a controlled archive or museum setting while still being treated with the proper respect and care and with its context in mind.
(Also with proper chains of custody and not just taking shit from the local community… looking at you British Museum)
Given the terrible history of destruction of ancient sites by 'local communities' in the UK, there is zero logic in allowing the local contemporary population to have a veto on what is a world heritage site. The best interests of all humanity, for all time, trump what the neighbours have to say.
In this case leaving it where it was would inevitable have destroyed it
@@lordpelagius5078 Ok? I'd (and a lot of others would also) argue that removing it from its original context itself destroys it. It's just a bunch of logs and a tree stump once it's no longer in its original place. It clearly meant a lot to people - preserving parts of it without preserving what actually made it special is nothing short of absurd hubris.
@@AlphaGarg So what would you prefer. To have it excavated and analysed being able to see the context of all the elements while they were in situ before preserving them and putting them on display? Or wait until the sea erodes it leaving the posts lying on the beach, losing the context and many of the elements as they would have washed away before preserving and putting what's left on display? Its not what people want but in this situation excavation was the best way to learn and preserve as much as possible before nature destroyed it all.
@@TheSjw7 I would prefer it stay in situ permanently. If preserving the state of the wood is important, build protective barriers around it instead of literally destroying the site and putting the remains in glass cases. It's not like we learned much of anything we didn't already know after the excavation, all that happened is the local people lost a historical and cultural landmark. That's not cool.
9:43 new subscriber gained i love dendrochronology
I immediately thought someone should make the "steppe mammoth" joke, so I was delighted when you went ahead and did so.
Anyone interested in this should also check out the ancient forest at Borth in Wales. When the tide is low the forest is revealed and you can see not only stumps but entire logs lying across the sand and root systems. When it's stormy even more of the forest is revealed, including further down the coastline in places like Aberystwyth. I might be incorrect but I think they found a preserved human footprint too.
5:14 is my favorite line in this whole video
same
I hope it’s a moment of dead air so badly
Man i just rewatched the master copy and you are really gonna love where that timestamp lands you.
@@miniminuteman773 THE PLOT THICKENS
~~not actually a henge~~
he starts off this story with a very poetic tone and I love it.
I'm really glad that you started making TH-cam videos. I would have missed your content entirely if you didn't start making them. I really enjoy these. Thanks for thinking of the boomers like me who don't explore tiktok.
The reveal of the second site literally gave me full body chills.
1:50 That just sounds amazing. The imagery it invokes is epic.
Wow look it's a different time now
(On a serious note, I love this video. I saw it when it first came out and several times since then. There's something deeply emotional about it that I can't quite put my finger on.)
I'd love to see a video about your thoughts on the recent discovery of the sunken HMS Endurance. I've seen quite a bit of discourse online about whether or not we should bring it up to the surface. I personally think it should stay where it is. The sheer isolation of the vessal alone warrants leaving it alone.
The vessel may be isolated, the henge wasn’t in easily accessible and vulnerable to vandalism.
Edit. Who could have predicted the worst character in this story wasn't "chainsaw guy" I hadn't made it that far before the novel below.
Tldr, I live next to the oldest mounds in north America. Amazing places. Rant on how disgusting it is how these sites have been treated/destroyed/sold. Then local tales of graverobbing.
I was having a nice morning. Enjoying some coffee while learning some archeology stuff. The story of the ass hole with a chainsaw really is engaging. Which then made me remember how in the states we dug up, commercialized, and subsequently destroyed so so many of the indigenous sites here. There are quite a few mound sites near where I live in Northern Louisiana. Two of them being, as far as I know, the oldest in North America. I've been to both Poverty Point, and Watson Brake. And the fact that people made these with baskets is really hard to wrap your mind around. One thing much more difficult to understand, is the private ownership of quite a bit of Watson Brake. To which they do not allow, or didn't then, public access. But have allowed some excavations. So yeah, we won't let the unwashed masses gaze upon the glory of "our" property. But yeah, come dig some shit up. I've met people from this area, who told me that after being up for like 3 days, decided they would sneak into a local mound. And then dig around and find artifacts. I believe he thought I'd be more impressed than angry. I mean yeah, ancient artifacts are amazing. And I would love to hold a piece of history in my hands. But I don't think I'll go grave robbing to do so. He told me specifically he found some of the artifacts in an actual grave. Wonder why we can't have anything nice.