I think one of the problems is the underlying toxic "attitude" of crossfit, where things have to be as tough for the athletes as possible, and if saftey is mentioned its seen as weak or something. Even the stupidity of having to run carrying the swim cap and goggles instead of just having them pick up at the start of swim, is an example of something silly which is designed to make things tough at the expense of safety
That's funny, I haven't experienced that side of CrossFit. What I'm seeing from so many people is that they hate CrossFit headquarters and they hope that the sport fails instead of saying that they want changes to be made because they love the sport...
I think as we see what the Masters, Teens, and Adaptive games look like it can reflect the differences between the competitions. In the past, it’s been stated that CrossFit provided medical insurance for all the competitors when they were at Madison. If the budget for CrossFit the Sport is dwindling, The least common denominator is safety. They should put on a competition that meets all practical safety standards. Whatever programming goes beyond that does not happen. Like John said, there are different types of leadership styles. Some leaders are authoritarian, some are democratic, and some are servant leaders. An authoritarian style may have worked years ago before resources were being taken away. I can say that to me, it would not be a bad thing if CrossFit removed themselves from running in person competitions. I’ve only been to regionals, sanctionals, and semifinals here in Minnesota. I believe if CrossFit provided activations at the Granite Games for CrossFit kids/geriatric/adaptive athletes that would allow the median aged CrossFitter to bring their children or parents to the community. Or heaven forbid CrossFit runs a subscription service that runs like the Rogue Invitational last year. Resources would have to go to media again. I just believe in the methodology so much. I have my own military affiliate that I run for other soldiers, because I know it works. CrossFit provides the waived affiliate fees to allow us to use CAP and any other resources in the toolkit. They do so many amazing things but have the same PR firm as Voldemort.
@woodshcc5 I love the sport and I hope changes are made to make all safe. I just think the backyard beginnings and the throw some dirt on it attitude can start to become dangerous the bigger the sport gets. I truly hope that some real change is on the horizon
During Castro’s interview with Pat Vellner, Pat asked Dave if he ever looks at the programming from other big events the athletes go to. The answer was no. I think Pat was trying to make the point other events might be better thought out. The programming needs athlete over site. Getting a safety plan in place is a given.
If the athletes thought ahead of time it was so dangerous, which I’m not arguing it wasn’t, why didn’t they all get together and refuse to go ahead with the first workout?
@@tjmarlettw1497they’ve been advocating for safety for literal years. Castro mocks them and largely ignored them. Numerous athletes have spoken about being afraid before certain events. But that they assumed that if they got into trouble someone would help them.
Thank you for a well thought out response. Being someone who was there and hurting personally it was really hard hearing all the negativity. I am not absolving anyone from responsiblity, but a lot of facts are needed to make educated decisions. Noting is going to bring Lazar back however, there will be change because now there is no other option. Also thank you for the kind words this weekend, appreciated that.
Thank you for this, John. I’ve been reeling since Thursday and that’s just me as a spectator at home and being in the community - I can’t imagine what everyone felt like being there and as an athlete. This is the candor, leadership, empathy, and grounded discourse we have all been needing. ❤
Having a separate safety team at the Games is a great idea, but it would also require Dave to be able to take feedback, which he can't because his skin is so dang thin.
It would require that Dave doesn’t get a say regarding safety measures. The safety council would need ultimate power, which is typical in industry (or at least mine - engineering).
As a spectator over the weekend I am happy to hear you stand up as a voice that will hopefully be heard. I was a spectator this weekend and there was never a time I felt ok being there, and didn't know if it was right to stay or go. I am upset and infuriated as a spectator and an affiliate owner. It makes me want to quit - I am so torn on what to do and there isn't communication between CF HQ and their small affiliate gyms - this is yet another trying time for us all. What do we do? How do we move forward with heartache and anger all in one?
Pool would’ve been much better. Run around the aquatic center in Fort Worth and hop in the pool for laps. Much safer.
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I was there this weekend and saw a well-known Games athlete at a coffee shop nearby after they canceled Thursday's events. I happened to overhear this exact sentiment of fear being expressed by this person. It was so sad to hear this coming from such a strong individual. 😔
Listened to Gui’s recap of how he felt in the water on Instagram. In summary, he blew up on the run, was looking forward to the water to cool down and when he got in the water it was warm so no reprieve. Then, everyone hit the water when the sun was rising so Gui said he couldn’t see anything (e.g., had no sense of direction) except for people’s arms flailing and thought as long as he follows them, he will be fine. He also said he started to panic a little but it thought there’s no way he could get DQ’d on the first event so he’s just gotta take a little off the pace and finish. Imagine being in the warm water with a spiked heart rate after pushing pace on the run, disoriented with no benchmark in sight, pushing through not because you really want to but because your drive to compete is just so strong. CrossFit created an event that pushed athletes and failed to create an environment that was truly safe for them to push.
First, RIP Lazar-such a tragedy. Praying for you and your loved ones. John, you hit the nail on the head, the leadership at HQ views anyone questioning them as an insult and are reactive with emotions. It permeates the organization. Adam Grant once said “If knowledge is power, then knowing what we don’t know is wisdom” and HQ seems to lack in wisdom. Third party safety team is an awesome suggestion. I am wondering what will happen with age groups and adaptive games if programming will be reconsidered. Because I can tell you now if there is any kind of open water event I will take the DNF and move on.
one of the mais things that bothers me as an athlete of open sea waters is that the crossfit games completed ignored the rules of conditions of swimming events
I shed more than a few tears during this video and I cannot tell you how much this video meant to me personally. Quite often it is a conversation like this that can actually do the most for people that are totally heartbroken by what happened on Thursday morning. Raging feels good sometimes and there are situations in life such as this one where you just want to scream at the top of your lungs that this shouldn't have happened. However, it did happen and trying to navigate the minefield of grief that gets unleashed during these moments is better served by a thoughtful, insightful, and heartfelt talk about the situation. Afterall, what is rage really about. It's about being so angry about the fact that you are not being heard or taken seriously, and finally erupt. A strong voice of calm and reason does more for a wounded soul than rage ever will. Thank you John.
The amount of athletes that have spoken out about their repeated questioning of safety protocols says a lot. I also think the lack of explicit accountability from CrossFit is what is fueling the anger. They haven't said, "We messed up."
Nor will they, because their lawyers have almost certainly told them not to. As a lawyer myself, it's sad when what is legally "smart" and self-preserving comes at the sacrifice of what is moral. The right thing to do would be to apologize and own up to their recklessness in designing the run-swim event, holding it in unsafe weather conditions, grossly understaffing and under-training safety personnel, etc. Sadly, that's very unlikely to happen.
@@nathanhernandez9615 do you think it's a good idea to press criminal charges against them? I am afraid if they are not held accountable this might happen again
The closest any of them came to it was Dave saying "I'm sorry" at the end of his DIR vid on Thursday night. Not that that absolves Dave of ANYTHING. He's still culpable.
@@reformed_attempt_1 I'm not a Texas lawyer, so I can't speak to whether there's some theory of criminal liability that could potentially be pursued. But generally speaking, the facts as I understand them are more compatible with a civil lawsuit for wrongful death. Lazar's estate will have to decide whether that's something they want to do.
Messed up again. Three strikes and you're out? Seems no one is mentioning the near drowning in recent Games open swims of Fraser and a masters competitor. When another athlete had to rescue their drowning competitor. (And it's not that complicated. Hold the swimming competitions, distance or sprint, in an Olympic sized pool...visibility, real lifeguards, heats.)
I think there's been a bit of short-term amnesia since Fraser almost drowned at the 2017 Games Run-Swim-Run event. I think it was Brent Fikowski who saw Fraser bobbing in the water and grabbed him to get him reset. It's unfathomable that the "safety" posture for any open water swim event was a couple of people on paddleboards spread across the course. It will be interesting to see what happens to CrossFit's insurance premiums moving forward and the venues' risk tolerance. I suspect title sponsorship will suffer as well. To your point about who should or should not be fired that answer is already available. Whomever was ultimately responsible for athlete safety for the event is accountable and responsible.
You bring up a very valid point about the use of volunteers vs trained professionals in certain aspects of events like Safety, and Security. Ultimately those trained professionals come at a cost of more than a free pair of shoes and some t-shirts. That of course will affect the company's (Crossfit in this case) bottom line, but in hindsight that cost is not greater than that of anyone's life.
Thank you John. I know that couldn’t have been an easy video to make and I admire that you were able to present the information in this way. I am so angry, I could never have done it.
Finally someone said this! Athletes should not be put in that position. Thank you! Everything that happened this week is just surreal! Just unacceptable. This culture that crossfit knows better is a Glassman heritage. That must change. And Dave must go. If he knows what decency and honour really mean, he should help the authorities and step down. No matter what. It is clear that this was a deadly fault committed by the organization. And who is the Director of the CFG? He is. He must go.
The fact that Lazar was the European spokesperson for the PFAA made this situation even sadder, making the athletes "decide" to continue with the competition.
Also, you need a safety team who can make the call to stop an event due to risk or injury without risk of retaliation. An independent safety team that is accountable to the well-being of the athletes and not tied to the "success" of the competition (the show must go on mentality) .
Ever see a SEAL swim off Coronado Island in SD? There are more trainers, supervisors and safety personnel than SEAL candidates in the water and on the shore... so clearly this isn't a SEAL thing. CrossFit needs to take itself seriously as more than just a "club sport" and that might mean spending more time and focus in things that are less fun but more important.
Did he? I didn't know this. After Murph I often said I thought it was dangerous and should've been held at an earlier time when it wasn't so hot. I had many people disagree and say the athletes are supposed to be tough and they're fit enough to cope. Unfortunately heatstroke doesn't care how fit you are
There are two, and only two, factors: 1) the programming and 2) the safety measures in place. #2 was woefully, objectively, inadequate. One doesn't need hindsight to realize that. It's not like there were 50 lifeguards and we're saying, "but if you had ONE MORE RIGHT THERE, you could have saved him." It's only sheer luck that he did happen to be near TWO (of very few) "lifeguards" who either weren't trained well to begin with, or just weren't given clear instructions as to the job. This alone indicts CrossFit HQ / Dave Castro without rebuttal. #1 only makes it worse, and though you can name real factors (water temp, having the swim 2nd), their "wrongness" is a little more subjective. But it only swings the needle towards "worse." Nothing about the extraneous factors work in HQ's favor. As far as the rest of the weekend, I think was the only clear option, and I said this before they made the choice they did: "With the contracts and logistics that have already been made and are effectively not-cancelable, we are going to hold an event for the remainder of the weekend. However, all 'competition' is canceled. This weekend will be one of community, support and exhibition. Athletes may perform the workouts or not, no obligation. The purse will be used to reimburse all athletes for their expenses to travel to Fort Worth and back home. The remainder will go to the Dukic family." Then, all weekend, you do NOTHING but seek ways, over and over, to address the grief on that campus, to provide support to everyone who had to witness this horrible tragedy. AND you communicate that you are committed to transparency about EVERYTHING going on as far as the investigation.
as someone who has competed for years in surflifesaving: they need to hire a crew of the people who secure thise events in Australia. They are absolute pros and will do an amazing job. The "lifeguards" on this event were NOT properly equipped and far too few.
Thank you for being one of the first to rip the proverbial bandaid and discuss this. I feel like you are spot on, as a fan of the methodology and the sport - I still think crossfit the company needs to do way better. Perfect example of this being an ongoing issue - murph in the heat of socal. Kara Saunders and Annie Thorisdottir had clear signs of heat exhaustion. Annie withdrew and they had safety in place to help them -but they could have easily pushed it too far. This is more of the same that has drawn to the ultimate consequence. PFAA definitely needs nore power, just because something can be harder does not mean it should be. Sometimes the intended stimulus of a workout is less intensity! Athletes can test fitness without consequences like this.
During that Murph, it really pissed me off that Dave wouldn't let the athletes have any water/bottles. He dismissed them as being weak. Then he has the women go at the peak heat of the day..."best for the TV schedule"...wearing metal insulation, burning their hands on the scorching rig, and no water. He can really be an arrogant macho military tool, with the judgement of an immature teen boy.
@@vanillaghetto i agree, he needs to go or have his role diminished. He may have been a big part of the games becoming what they are, but i think his attitude trickles into the org and into the games. The sport needs growth and i think he is ultimately stifling it. I don't know why they did not let Boz continue to stay at the mantle of the games. The year he programmed was awesome.
@@vanillaghettoI never knew this, unbelievable he wouldn’t let them have water. I used to be a fan but he’s really revealed his ego means more than common sense… reliving his seal days of torturing recruits, but without the safety crew to support
Thank you, John. Your words are well considered carry a clear actionable message. As we all move forward in our grief, we are angry and yet, better focused on how to affect changes.
Thanks for your calm, level headed analysis. Always appreciate your take on how things work from a "corporate" level as I think many who haven't operated in that space professionally don't always understand the push and pull.
I didn’t realize that the other water events had SO MANY lifeguards and boats. Like 2016-2021 era had all hands on deck it seems. It seems like the noticed “oh shit we don’t have any water safety hired, oh well nothing has ever happened before so I think it will be fine” and it indeed was not fine… Andrew Hiller has a slideshow of the previous open water swims and then this last one and it’s jarring
I genuinely have to wonder…is it time for CrossFit as a brand and company to die? That might be hyperbolic. But at this point, there’s a stigma around it, memberships seem to be constantly dropping, the amount of affiliates are constantly on the decline, CEO turnover, CFHQ in disarray, cost cutting measures. And now this will hang over CrossFit for years. Big athletes and sponsors will likely walk away from them forever. And there are plenty of functional fitness companies and brands out there now, where it seems CrossFit is already having a problem with attracting new talent. But is something else able to be built around the same ideals with new leaders?
Thank you for this. So difficult and heartbreaking for the family, athletes, friends, and the community. Change is needed to protect the competitors...and prevent something like this ever happening again.
In motocross they have the Alpine medical unit. I belive it is paid for by Alpinestar. MAYBE a outside sponsor could step up with a safety team and it would not cost crossfit anything
This is a great video. Well spoken. Speaking to the point of the PFAA…is it an established entity? Are athletes paying into this group? What grounds do they currently have? The ball is (unfortunate circumstances) in their court now. CrossFit and PFAA need to collectively come together and have this be the recognized voice of the athletes.
Thank you for this. Very well said and helpful perspective from the business side of things. To your point about hubris, as someone else said online, it’s sad how a company who prides itself on teaching others how to be coachable, to learn from one’s mistakes, and the importance of teaching people to learn new things and learning from others isn’t willing to do the same internally.
I’ve participated in small town sprint triathlons with better lifeguard support in the water. There is also a reason why it is swim-bike-run in that order.. this situation is really sad, I hate that this happened..
Thanks, man. I'm ... ugh. Just not feeling Crossfit right now. Been training pure weightlifting for the last 4-5 months after a breakup with my former box combined with a move to a new town. I guess I'll join another box at some point - I've been in the scene for about 20 years now - but ... ugh. It might take a while.
I haven't been exposed to a ton of your content, but recently just started finding it in my feed. I really appreciate your level-headed perspective on all this. We need more voices like yours amplifying the right way of moving forward after what happened if we're to expect there to be positive change we can believe CrossFit is actually going to commit to.
I appreciate that you spoke plainly and offered practical methods to improve the situation. I’ve been in the military for over 20 years so that shapes a lot of my views. In previous interviews Don mentioned that nearly the whole company works remotely. It is hard for me to imagine that changing culture is easy when you aren’t going through hard things with your coworkers in person. I believe that is why the affiliates have a similar effect of being close with other communities like a church groups, support groups, sports teams, or military units. It is easier to ignore issues when it is a task on a to-do list, than a conversation with a coworker. I’m an introvert with social anxiety, and even I encourage more time together.
Disagree that athletes couldn’t choose for themselves to continue competing or not. Also the conversation was not we are gonna compete you in or out. It was do you even want to continue or not. If so what does that look like. And they had a long discussion over it. I think a lot of what you said is spot on and I appreciate your input and perspective! Let’s move forward and get better and hold each other accountable
Thank you for so eloquently stating what I think most are feeling. Accountability is a must at this point, but so is love, kindness and grace. It breaks my heart this had to happen to change to take place, but I hope we can honor Lazar and make the changes needed for a safe and healthier community and games moving forward.
Yeah, two near deaths in recent CF Games open water events wasn't enough. (And only near because of being very luckily rescued by another competitor.) Need to have an actual drowning with a fully clear view on worldwide livestream of a star athlete splashing and struggling for 43 seconds as two paddleboarders stand around watching the race. Pretty hard to "love", "community", distance, and gaslight your way out of this one, boys. Oh, but they are trying.
I'm so glad that you mentioned humility because I felt in CrossFit there's this mentality that these athletes are the fittest in the world. Accidents can even happen to the fittest in the world.
Wait for the medical report and hold the CrossFit safety team accountable! I grew up playing water polo like Lazar! (I still play at age 43.)If Lazar was tired he would have breast stroked. If he cramped up he would have still stayed above water.
So what are you suspecting caused him to have such a much worse time of it than the other 78, even to the point of going under? Are you suspecting a heart attack...or?
@@vanillaghetto I would be surprised if it wasn't a heart attack or something just as severe. You don't just go under that quickly unless you release all your air from your lungs. Growing up I was a junior lifeguard for a California state beach (My two sons are JG's now) and we did run swim runs all the time. The swim portion for me was always a relief. I don't think he went under because he was tired. If he had a cramp he would have slowed down and tread water, but not sunk. I am only speaking from personal experience and observation. Sometimes during Water Polo scrimmages I get super tired and winded because of all the back and forth and sometimes I play the Set position. (It is the hardest sport in the world) It's a gnarly feeling, but never have I started drowning because I was tanked. This is because I am a water polo player. Lazar wasn't just any CrossFit athlete. He was a former Serbian Water Polo player who played for 10 years. The best come from Serbia. He was even a lifeguard in the States. My understanding is that Lazar trailed other athletes by minutes but ended up catching up in the swim. If the swim was longer I think he would have won the event. He was either the best swimmer out there or close to it which is why I think it was a total freak event that happened under the "watchful eye" of an unqualified safety team. I wish Lazar was still alive!
@@socalpreston He was struggling for five minutes at least before he went under, but yes, definitely something very acute happened. And probably affected his brain as well, since he didn't float on his back and/or scream to the paddleboarders or something. (I know he was probably gasping for air by the time he realized how serious the problem was.)
@@vanillaghetto He actually had issues taking his shoes off and he was slurring his words just before he went in the water. I heard this personally today from a very credible source that was there. CrossFit is hiding the evidence it appears.
@@socalpreston Interesting. I fully believe it. Fortunately, they can't hide the video livestreamed round the world, nor the witnesses. Gaslighting, distancing, deflection has worked for them for years...but a body and a video will put a dead stop to that.
Athlete unions don’t apply in this structure. Even if they all walkout at once, there are hundred or thousands who would die to be able to take their places, fans and sponsors who would still show up, and CF would roll forward and crown a new champion. Look at the beginnings of American Football. There were a lot of deaths. It didn’t change until Teddy Roosevelt got involved. Tragically, sometimes hard lessons have to be learned.
I may be wrong but just my opinion. I expected some leadership from Tia, i get and respect that everyone has their own way of grieving and handling the situation. But heard nothing from her minus that interview. esp with her popularity in the sport, I just saw someone with not much care for what’s happened. Again i may be wrong and its just my opinion
Just another event in which Tia shows us her true personality. I was a fan of her, until I saw her risking her unborn baby's life by doing very risky exercises while she was like 8 months pregnant. Her ego and her champion titles were more important to her than her baby's safety.
If they really wanted to force change and be heard every heat should’ve sat down for the entire event. As a collective group, teams, men, women, just sit down on the floor for the world to see. Show CF that they won’t take part in a competition that doesn’t put athlete safety first
What I am confused about, and not to lessen the responsibility of CFHQ, surely the swimming safety plans had to go through many hands and approval by local authorities. This happened in Madison I recall. Did that not happen in FW? Did local authorities not approve the plan?
There have been multiple events in different years that put athletes in danger. Mat Fraser almost drowned in a lake swim, many collapsed and got heat stroke during murph. These are the ones i remember.
How you do anything is how you do everything. Hiller has made multiple videos on how CrossFit f’ed up. Roman breaking his foot, that’s sport. Brooke hurting her arm, that’s sport. The run swim was not sport, it was negligence. I don’t like the 800 double under workouts, or the 100 rep workouts. Some of the excessive rep workouts are testing who has the strongest ligaments. There has to be a safe but effective fitness test. I was at the games. Section 122 row 4. I was impressed on the production. The safety needs to be on par with the production value.
@@Shane_Peoples i totally agree with you. They need to hire people who are actually educated and qualified to design and program tests that are balanced and also challenging enough to find the fittest. Right now it’s more like athletes are attending Castro’s party and he will plan it however he likes.
I'd be curious if the PFAA or individual athletes on their own, brought up concerns about the safety of the event beforehand. There were many athletes competing that had been through open water events like this in the past and have seen safety protocols from previous games swim events, or even events like Wodapalooza that included open water. I looked back today and found a Wodaplooza swim event and saw a couple official looking jet skis on the edge of the course. When I watched event #1 on Thursday, I did notice one jet ski near the entrance of the water, but didn't see it much after. Curious if concerns were raised before hand and ignored. Or perhaps no concerns were raised by any athletes. Time may tell.
I completely agree with everything said. I think the mentality/culture CrossFit have served them well as a disrupters in the fitness space. It’s time for them for grow into a new culture of leaders in the fitness space. This is undoubtedly a tragedy and I wish it had never happened i just hope that it is a catalyst for positive change.
I want to hear from the athletes who tested all the events. Were safety concerns brought to the attention of the organization at that time? If so, what was the response from the organization? Also wondering how respected the test team athletes feel when that team brings forth programming concerns. I've always had the sense from Dave's programming, the goal is to make athletes as miserable as possible during each event and through the weekend "to test true fitness" and that's disturbing to me. That mentality needs to change.
I’m wondering if the reaction would have been the same if pat or mat caught their necks in the cargo net the time they both fell from the o course tower in 2017
So hypothetically, if the athletes had a strong union that met on behalf of the athletes and came to the conclusion with CrossFit that the athletes should get to choose to compete… then it’d be okay? It would no longer be an impossible burden on athletes to be forced to choose…?
I especially appreciate your comments about culture, and the ways in which the cult of HQ, which has refused, at many, many turns to deconstruct, has created the crisis this weekend. When you don’t create a culture of actual inclusion, when the white dudebros w their military indoctrinations make all the key decisions, there are no checks and balances. For a start: Adequate lifeguards, and those who know say a minimum of 1:4 athletes in these circumstances, and lifesaving gear don’t render these athletes any less fit, or challenged, only less dead.
Are you referring to that really "tan" Navy SEAL bro with the last name of CASTRO who is the Director of The CrossFit Games? But for sure blame it on "white" people.🙄
Agree 100%. Keep Boz, the rest of the senior staff need to go. Faul has been terrible. Dave has meant a lot to CrossFit, the methodology and sport, but he has to go for good. The only way to change the culture is to wipe the slate clean...except for Boz.
Move the games back to LA and put swimming in the pool, the WODs in the pool back in the day were way more interesting than the discount triathlons they run in open water
The games jumped the shark years ago. It’s nothing to do with fitness anymore, these athletes aren’t the fittest people on earth, that’s just marketing and Kool aid, but the arrogance of the organisers and the chief programmer has bought into that so hard that these endurance events are confused with sport. It’s a circus show at best. Clearly a total failure when it comes to drug testing and then you send these people out in heat to prove what exactly? I’m surprised Castro didn’t want the athletes wearing a murph vest when they swam to fulfil his fantasies. Arrogance to the highest level.
Do you think a lot of the issues actually stem back to the Greg days as I remember him & Dave having similar attitudes to outside advice or criticism. Also I know certain people in the media space have shit on the idea of the PFAA do you think they will get on board with it now after this incident?
Feels like Dave Castro still runs the games like it’s on his ranch. It’s arrogant and stupid to underestimate the effect of heat, physical exertion and open water on the human body, even bodies as fit as those in CrossFit. Time to go, Dave.
Crossfit just has to make sure that if they get a safety team to veto programming, that they aren't vetoing it because they feel barbells are bad for humans... Not even certain that a swim after a run is inherently dangerous with the appropriate safety mechanisms in place. I need to learn more about what makes it dangerous before I can even make that assessment; however, that would be the kind of veto that I would expect from them.
There is a danger in doing a swim after a run. That said, Spartan has a swim in it's Beast race in WV each year. It's usually around the halfway point(around 6.5 miles in). It is always heavily staffed and there are rescue teams on site and on the water for the entire event. In addition to that, ALL athletes(Elite,AG,Open, Michael Phelps) are required to wear a life vest for the open water swim. You cannot get in the water without it and not wearing it makes you disqualified.
Loved the video, but it is misplaced. You are giving crossfit HQ too much credit. They don't believe they have done anything wrong. Nothing I have heard out of Don on Castro suggests that this was anything but some kind of unpreventable accident, and the show must go on. You can build trust from a place of hubris and lies. Everyone saw this man die.. I don't want to support Don or Castro.. I don't like them anymore.. I love my home box and my holiday box and a 3rd box my friend owns that I pay a membership for but go like once a quarter, but HQ is dead to me. The games are done.. I will watch Froning and Fraser highlights
I feel if the PFAA wants a voice at the table about how the Games are ran then put some skin in the game. Are they willing to lower the prize money so that enhanced safety protocols can be put in place? My understanding is that the Games lose a ton of money every year. Increasing the budget in one area means another area has to be cut or the event loses even more money.
Vague condemnation is no condemnation. I feel like you may as well say nothing if you aren’t willing to declare the error as you see it. When will anyone dare to claim what they actually disapproved of? You can’t say CF didn’t put anyone in the water. And the paddleboarders sadly were RIGHT THERE. So I wonder how athletes and others feel blame can bypass them and fall in CF? Is it that the paddleboarders we’re not briefed on their role? Is it that the water was too warm? Is it the order if the swim after the run. Is it that they didn’t have first responders on site? I fear the reluctance to be specific is secretly to avoid having somebody debate against their claim. But how can we move forward if the grievances are not made clear?
No. Reluctance to speculate on what we don’t yet know is prudent. If I did the opposite you’d be back in a week pointing out my lack of due diligence. This video wasn’t designed for what you are pressing for. That time will come. There are plenty of others in this space that are willing to speculate though so Im sure you’ll get your fill of misinformation.
@@constantlyvariedconversations I’m confused John. How can you and so many others be adamant that there as failures and that CF needs to change, without being prepared to name them? If you’re so sure there’s issues, you must know what you think they are, no?
@@constantlyvariedconversations because it’s the same topic. And you’re deflecting. Anyone suggesting there are failures, are effectively saying somebody is responsible for a man’s death and that’s not a light comment. So, I’ll not apologise for asking people to be specific when attributing vague blame.
I find it impossible that CrossFit had not game-played this exact scenario. How on earth did they not have a strategy already in place for dealing with the death of an athlete? Other sports have one. If they did not than that is a massive failure of governance. If they did, then it didn't serve them.
Lazar was a water polo player and swimming 800m is normal training for these athletes even if they aren't triathletes - many posted videos of practicing the exercise, without patrol boats etc. This was a tragic incident but might not be a specific person's or institution's fault.
@@BernhardKohli respectfully, I must disagree. At any swimming event, there are safety protocols in place because anything can happen, cramp, cardiac episode, etc, that may have nothing to do with the athlete's swimming ability but with an issue they may have been unaware of or freak accidents. You must prepare for the worst case scenario. Not skimp on safety and hope for the best. Also, the event was not programmed by the athletes. It was programmed by CFHQ. I think it is quite clear who must shoulder responsibility and the fact that they are yet to do so is further fueling people's anger.
If you are running an event with open water swimming you are as responsible for ensuring safety. No one is immune to drowning. Michael Phelps could easily drown under the right circumstances.
Not to be combative but do water polo teams do a 3.5 mile run in 100 degree heat before hitting an open water swim? I think programming was absolutely an issue here.
Bernhard, you are 100% right. He would do this no question without lifeguards, and probably has dozens of times in training. I watched video of Vellner training without a life guard open water I think it was him. This was a freak accident...
Follow comments on socials from open water swimming lifeguards and safety personnel. There are about a DOZEN “water safety 101” violations easily recognisable in this event. The swim should have been first, but the water was too warm to be safe to begin with. Insufficient lifeguards and water rescue gear. No bright swim caps required. On and on. This was gross negligence.
Cross fit here in Australia is a non event and none talks aboutit.I rang the local radio station to tell how successful Australians did in cross fit their queation was WHATS CROSS FIT? Probably why nothing has been mentioned herd in Australia even thos Tia Clare Toomey took out the individual female event and two Australian teams in the mixed finished first and second.
Well since the athletes are from all over the world they can form an International Union. and in the end an International Union doesn't need to play by US rules. And a simple basic union isn't financially taxing if you do by the principles of just uniting workers and putting pressure on CF by striking. I mean the union I'm a part of is very very small (an Anarchist union) that can work fine with just 10.- from every worker they represent. In teh end you need a way for ppl to communicate, voice their opinion and vote on a matter and then you need a few more actove ppl communicate those votes to CrossFit. And if there is no agreement you put pressure on CrossFit. I think especially sports are in very favourable positions to form unions because you can't just scare the athletes by telling them they won't be allowed to compete, since they have a fan base therefore they are not just be replaced.
@@Siamotutti161 I was in pro sports for 10 years, and could not disagree more. This is a US based private company. There are maybe 4 athletes on have the following to affect anything and they aren’t making enough money to split their share to the 1 offs and up and comers. Tia, Rich, Mat. Maybe a few others like Ricky, Haley Adams, Gui, and Roman. Most people have never heard of these athletes. This athlete union is way more complex than a small business. CF would likely reject the strike and just find new athletes. That’s what I would do, people will still watch the games. Tia is in her closing years and the guys side doesn’t have a superstar currently. This is a sport with the biggest prize purse being 3.3 million on the year.
Ever hear of large pools, like in the Olympics? Visibility, lanes, temperature controlled, real lifeguards and life-saving equipment...you should check one out sometime.
Legit question... Were they lifeguards or observers that were only in place to keep the athletes on course... Another question is why were there no shore based life guards or observers? They use drones to get media footage, why not use drones as a tool for safety observation.... This list goes on and on
I think one of the problems is the underlying toxic "attitude" of crossfit, where things have to be as tough for the athletes as possible, and if saftey is mentioned its seen as weak or something. Even the stupidity of having to run carrying the swim cap and goggles instead of just having them pick up at the start of swim, is an example of something silly which is designed to make things tough at the expense of safety
That's funny, I haven't experienced that side of CrossFit. What I'm seeing from so many people is that they hate CrossFit headquarters and they hope that the sport fails instead of saying that they want changes to be made because they love the sport...
I think as we see what the Masters, Teens, and Adaptive games look like it can reflect the differences between the competitions. In the past, it’s been stated that CrossFit provided medical insurance for all the competitors when they were at Madison. If the budget for CrossFit the Sport is dwindling, The least common denominator is safety. They should put on a competition that meets all practical safety standards. Whatever programming goes beyond that does not happen. Like John said, there are different types of leadership styles. Some leaders are authoritarian, some are democratic, and some are servant leaders. An authoritarian style may have worked years ago before resources were being taken away.
I can say that to me, it would not be a bad thing if CrossFit removed themselves from running in person competitions. I’ve only been to regionals, sanctionals, and semifinals here in Minnesota. I believe if CrossFit provided activations at the Granite Games for CrossFit kids/geriatric/adaptive athletes that would allow the median aged CrossFitter to bring their children or parents to the community. Or heaven forbid CrossFit runs a subscription service that runs like the Rogue Invitational last year. Resources would have to go to media again. I just believe in the methodology so much. I have my own military affiliate that I run for other soldiers, because I know it works. CrossFit provides the waived affiliate fees to allow us to use CAP and any other resources in the toolkit. They do so many amazing things but have the same PR firm as Voldemort.
@woodshcc5 I love the sport and I hope changes are made to make all safe. I just think the backyard beginnings and the throw some dirt on it attitude can start to become dangerous the bigger the sport gets. I truly hope that some real change is on the horizon
@@tinesess3521 me too. I love what CrossFit has done for general health but they suck as a professional organization. It makes me sad.
Am I the only one who thinks that Dave Castro made the right decision based on the circumstances? Why is everyone making this out like it's his fault?
During Castro’s interview with Pat Vellner, Pat asked Dave if he ever looks at the programming from other big events the athletes go to. The answer was no. I think Pat was trying to make the point other events might be better thought out. The programming needs athlete over site. Getting a safety plan in place is a given.
I feel like Pat Vellner is going to be the one to spearhead an active athletes union.
If the athletes thought ahead of time it was so dangerous, which I’m not arguing it wasn’t, why didn’t they all get together and refuse to go ahead with the first workout?
@@tjmarlettw1497Pat vellner and Brent fikowski have been advocating for athlete safety for years. And they just get shooed away.
@@tjmarlettw1497they’ve been advocating for safety for literal years. Castro mocks them and largely ignored them. Numerous athletes have spoken about being afraid before certain events. But that they assumed that if they got into trouble someone would help them.
Fikowski has been very active and may actually head the current iteration
@@PeterBrake123 i hopehe does and forces some much needed change
Thank you for a well thought out response. Being someone who was there and hurting personally it was really hard hearing all the negativity. I am not absolving anyone from responsiblity, but a lot of facts are needed to make educated decisions. Noting is going to bring Lazar back however, there will be change because now there is no other option. Also thank you for the kind words this weekend, appreciated that.
i was just thinking about you and how tough the weekend must have been. Let's chat soon!
Thank you for this, John. I’ve been reeling since Thursday and that’s just me as a spectator at home and being in the community - I can’t imagine what everyone felt like being there and as an athlete.
This is the candor, leadership, empathy, and grounded discourse we have all been needing. ❤
Bill Grundler specifically stated that the issue from his vantage point was the safety plan. He made this point last Thursday on Sevan's show.
Having a separate safety team at the Games is a great idea, but it would also require Dave to be able to take feedback, which he can't because his skin is so dang thin.
He can’t handle the tone !!!
This is not a true characterization of Dave C.
It would require that Dave doesn’t get a say regarding safety measures. The safety council would need ultimate power, which is typical in industry (or at least mine - engineering).
@@missionbelle28 Have any of you met and had a conversation with Castro?
Dave is terrible at taking feedback
As a spectator over the weekend I am happy to hear you stand up as a voice that will hopefully be heard. I was a spectator this weekend and there was never a time I felt ok being there, and didn't know if it was right to stay or go. I am upset and infuriated as a spectator and an affiliate owner. It makes me want to quit - I am so torn on what to do and there isn't communication between CF HQ and their small affiliate gyms - this is yet another trying time for us all. What do we do? How do we move forward with heartache and anger all in one?
I also think no one really appreciates how unsafe the athletes felt after Event 1.
Pool would’ve been much better. Run around the aquatic center in Fort Worth and hop in the pool for laps. Much safer.
I was there this weekend and saw a well-known Games athlete at a coffee shop nearby after they canceled Thursday's events. I happened to overhear this exact sentiment of fear being expressed by this person. It was so sad to hear this coming from such a strong individual. 😔
@@MariamOsman1 what did they feel unsafe about?
Listened to Gui’s recap of how he felt in the water on Instagram. In summary, he blew up on the run, was looking forward to the water to cool down and when he got in the water it was warm so no reprieve. Then, everyone hit the water when the sun was rising so Gui said he couldn’t see anything (e.g., had no sense of direction) except for people’s arms flailing and thought as long as he follows them, he will be fine. He also said he started to panic a little but it thought there’s no way he could get DQ’d on the first event so he’s just gotta take a little off the pace and finish.
Imagine being in the warm water with a spiked heart rate after pushing pace on the run, disoriented with no benchmark in sight, pushing through not because you really want to but because your drive to compete is just so strong.
CrossFit created an event that pushed athletes and failed to create an environment that was truly safe for them to push.
@@jamesscheu_91 they should have have way more Bowies on both sides, almost like a lane and way more boats and paddlers out there.
First, RIP Lazar-such a tragedy. Praying for you and your loved ones.
John, you hit the nail on the head, the leadership at HQ views anyone questioning them as an insult and are reactive with emotions. It permeates the organization. Adam Grant once said “If knowledge is power, then knowing what we don’t know is wisdom” and HQ seems to lack in wisdom. Third party safety team is an awesome suggestion. I am wondering what will happen with age groups and adaptive games if programming will be reconsidered. Because I can tell you now if there is any kind of open water event I will take the DNF and move on.
one of the mais things that bothers me as an athlete of open sea waters is that the crossfit games completed ignored the rules of conditions of swimming events
A clear transparency would start with naming, who or what is the 3rd party which is „investigating“
They're not gonna be fully transparent regarding the results especially with impending lawsuit...they can be but they're gonna have to settle.
I shed more than a few tears during this video and I cannot tell you how much this video meant to me personally. Quite often it is a conversation like this that can actually do the most for people that are totally heartbroken by what happened on Thursday morning. Raging feels good sometimes and there are situations in life such as this one where you just want to scream at the top of your lungs that this shouldn't have happened. However, it did happen and trying to navigate the minefield of grief that gets unleashed during these moments is better served by a thoughtful, insightful, and heartfelt talk about the situation. Afterall, what is rage really about. It's about being so angry about the fact that you are not being heard or taken seriously, and finally erupt. A strong voice of calm and reason does more for a wounded soul than rage ever will. Thank you John.
Thank you. I shed a few trying to make it tbh...
Castro and CF would never let an outside organization “veto” an event.
The amount of athletes that have spoken out about their repeated questioning of safety protocols says a lot.
I also think the lack of explicit accountability from CrossFit is what is fueling the anger.
They haven't said, "We messed up."
Nor will they, because their lawyers have almost certainly told them not to. As a lawyer myself, it's sad when what is legally "smart" and self-preserving comes at the sacrifice of what is moral. The right thing to do would be to apologize and own up to their recklessness in designing the run-swim event, holding it in unsafe weather conditions, grossly understaffing and under-training safety personnel, etc. Sadly, that's very unlikely to happen.
@@nathanhernandez9615 do you think it's a good idea to press criminal charges against them? I am afraid if they are not held accountable this might happen again
The closest any of them came to it was Dave saying "I'm sorry" at the end of his DIR vid on Thursday night. Not that that absolves Dave of ANYTHING. He's still culpable.
@@reformed_attempt_1 I'm not a Texas lawyer, so I can't speak to whether there's some theory of criminal liability that could potentially be pursued. But generally speaking, the facts as I understand them are more compatible with a civil lawsuit for wrongful death. Lazar's estate will have to decide whether that's something they want to do.
Messed up again. Three strikes and you're out? Seems no one is mentioning the near drowning in recent Games open swims of Fraser and a masters competitor. When another athlete had to rescue their drowning competitor.
(And it's not that complicated. Hold the swimming competitions, distance or sprint, in an Olympic sized pool...visibility, real lifeguards, heats.)
So so so well said, John. Glad you're a voice in the CF community.
Thank you ! xoxox
I think there's been a bit of short-term amnesia since Fraser almost drowned at the 2017 Games Run-Swim-Run event. I think it was Brent Fikowski who saw Fraser bobbing in the water and grabbed him to get him reset. It's unfathomable that the "safety" posture for any open water swim event was a couple of people on paddleboards spread across the course. It will be interesting to see what happens to CrossFit's insurance premiums moving forward and the venues' risk tolerance. I suspect title sponsorship will suffer as well. To your point about who should or should not be fired that answer is already available. Whomever was ultimately responsible for athlete safety for the event is accountable and responsible.
You bring up a very valid point about the use of volunteers vs trained professionals in certain aspects of events like Safety, and Security. Ultimately those trained professionals come at a cost of more than a free pair of shoes and some t-shirts. That of course will affect the company's (Crossfit in this case) bottom line, but in hindsight that cost is not greater than that of anyone's life.
Thank you John. I know that couldn’t have been an easy video to make and I admire that you were able to present the information in this way. I am so angry, I could never have done it.
It took a few takes and some practice. We’re all angry
Finally someone said this! Athletes should not be put in that position. Thank you! Everything that happened this week is just surreal! Just unacceptable.
This culture that crossfit knows better is a Glassman heritage. That must change.
And Dave must go. If he knows what decency and honour really mean, he should help the authorities and step down. No matter what. It is clear that this was a deadly fault committed by the organization. And who is the Director of the CFG? He is. He must go.
The fact that Lazar was the European spokesperson for the PFAA made this situation even sadder, making the athletes "decide" to continue with the competition.
Putting it that way makes it sound like a really similar situation to Niki Lauda's crash. 😕
Also, you need a safety team who can make the call to stop an event due to risk or injury without risk of retaliation. An independent safety team that is accountable to the well-being of the athletes and not tied to the "success" of the competition (the show must go on mentality) .
Completely agree
I think the PFAA needs to be non active athletes so that CrossFit will share programming without giving anyone an advantage
Or a sub or separate safety committee comprised of non athletes
Yeah I can see the PFAA becoming more of a force now but it will get stronger when Brent & Pat both retire from active sport.
Ever see a SEAL swim off Coronado Island in SD? There are more trainers, supervisors and safety personnel than SEAL candidates in the water and on the shore... so clearly this isn't a SEAL thing. CrossFit needs to take itself seriously as more than just a "club sport" and that might mean spending more time and focus in things that are less fun but more important.
That is a great remark. CrossFit events actually imitate elite military trials but have zero concern for the participant safety.
Remember when Castro uninvited volunteer medical staff that criticized the handling of 2015s Murph?
Did he? I didn't know this. After Murph I often said I thought it was dangerous and should've been held at an earlier time when it wasn't so hot. I had many people disagree and say the athletes are supposed to be tough and they're fit enough to cope. Unfortunately heatstroke doesn't care how fit you are
@@kathiestan4379 And Dave wouldn't even let them drink water during the event.
There are two, and only two, factors: 1) the programming and 2) the safety measures in place.
#2 was woefully, objectively, inadequate. One doesn't need hindsight to realize that. It's not like there were 50 lifeguards and we're saying, "but if you had ONE MORE RIGHT THERE, you could have saved him." It's only sheer luck that he did happen to be near TWO (of very few) "lifeguards" who either weren't trained well to begin with, or just weren't given clear instructions as to the job. This alone indicts CrossFit HQ / Dave Castro without rebuttal.
#1 only makes it worse, and though you can name real factors (water temp, having the swim 2nd), their "wrongness" is a little more subjective. But it only swings the needle towards "worse." Nothing about the extraneous factors work in HQ's favor.
As far as the rest of the weekend, I think was the only clear option, and I said this before they made the choice they did: "With the contracts and logistics that have already been made and are effectively not-cancelable, we are going to hold an event for the remainder of the weekend. However, all 'competition' is canceled. This weekend will be one of community, support and exhibition. Athletes may perform the workouts or not, no obligation. The purse will be used to reimburse all athletes for their expenses to travel to Fort Worth and back home. The remainder will go to the Dukic family." Then, all weekend, you do NOTHING but seek ways, over and over, to address the grief on that campus, to provide support to everyone who had to witness this horrible tragedy. AND you communicate that you are committed to transparency about EVERYTHING going on as far as the investigation.
Emotional responses - hit the nail on the head with this one. HQ have been this way since I started in 2011.
as someone who has competed for years in surflifesaving: they need to hire a crew of the people who secure thise events in Australia. They are absolute pros and will do an amazing job. The "lifeguards" on this event were NOT properly equipped and far too few.
The hubris goes a long way back, not just the current leadership
As does the arrogance.
Thank you for being one of the first to rip the proverbial bandaid and discuss this. I feel like you are spot on, as a fan of the methodology and the sport - I still think crossfit the company needs to do way better. Perfect example of this being an ongoing issue - murph in the heat of socal. Kara Saunders and Annie Thorisdottir had clear signs of heat exhaustion. Annie withdrew and they had safety in place to help them -but they could have easily pushed it too far. This is more of the same that has drawn to the ultimate consequence. PFAA definitely needs nore power, just because something can be harder does not mean it should be. Sometimes the intended stimulus of a workout is less intensity! Athletes can test fitness without consequences like this.
During that Murph, it really pissed me off that Dave wouldn't let the athletes have any water/bottles. He dismissed them as being weak. Then he has the women go at the peak heat of the day..."best for the TV schedule"...wearing metal insulation, burning their hands on the scorching rig, and no water. He can really be an arrogant macho military tool, with the judgement of an immature teen boy.
@@vanillaghetto i agree, he needs to go or have his role diminished. He may have been a big part of the games becoming what they are, but i think his attitude trickles into the org and into the games. The sport needs growth and i think he is ultimately stifling it. I don't know why they did not let Boz continue to stay at the mantle of the games. The year he programmed was awesome.
@@vanillaghettoI never knew this, unbelievable he wouldn’t let them have water. I used to be a fan but he’s really revealed his ego means more than common sense… reliving his seal days of torturing recruits, but without the safety crew to support
Thank you, John.
Your words are well considered carry a clear actionable message. As we all move forward in our grief, we are angry and yet, better focused on how to affect changes.
Thanks for your calm, level headed analysis. Always appreciate your take on how things work from a "corporate" level as I think many who haven't operated in that space professionally don't always understand the push and pull.
I didn’t realize that the other water events had SO MANY lifeguards and boats. Like 2016-2021 era had all hands on deck it seems. It seems like the noticed “oh shit we don’t have any water safety hired, oh well nothing has ever happened before so I think it will be fine” and it indeed was not fine…
Andrew Hiller has a slideshow of the previous open water swims and then this last one and it’s jarring
You have a powerful voice and youre using it well
Thank you ❤
My heart is still heavy and my family as well. We can’t get past it. Praying for Luka and Lazar’s family and fiancé often.
Wow I really appreciate your thoughts and candour.
I genuinely have to wonder…is it time for CrossFit as a brand and company to die? That might be hyperbolic. But at this point, there’s a stigma around it, memberships seem to be constantly dropping, the amount of affiliates are constantly on the decline, CEO turnover, CFHQ in disarray, cost cutting measures. And now this will hang over CrossFit for years. Big athletes and sponsors will likely walk away from them forever. And there are plenty of functional fitness companies and brands out there now, where it seems CrossFit is already having a problem with attracting new talent.
But is something else able to be built around the same ideals with new leaders?
Thank you for this. So difficult and heartbreaking for the family, athletes, friends, and the community. Change is needed to protect the competitors...and prevent something like this ever happening again.
In motocross they have the Alpine medical unit. I belive it is paid for by Alpinestar. MAYBE a outside sponsor could step up with a safety team and it would not cost crossfit anything
This is a great video. Well spoken. Speaking to the point of the PFAA…is it an established entity? Are athletes paying into this group? What grounds do they currently have? The ball is (unfortunate circumstances) in their court now. CrossFit and PFAA need to collectively come together and have this be the recognized voice of the athletes.
Thank you for this. Very well said and helpful perspective from the business side of things. To your point about hubris, as someone else said online, it’s sad how a company who prides itself on teaching others how to be coachable, to learn from one’s mistakes, and the importance of teaching people to learn new things and learning from others isn’t willing to do the same internally.
I’ve participated in small town sprint triathlons with better lifeguard support in the water. There is also a reason why it is swim-bike-run in that order.. this situation is really sad, I hate that this happened..
Thanks, man. I'm ... ugh. Just not feeling Crossfit right now. Been training pure weightlifting for the last 4-5 months after a breakup with my former box combined with a move to a new town. I guess I'll join another box at some point - I've been in the scene for about 20 years now - but ... ugh. It might take a while.
Do you think another professional, like a CSCS credential, should be reviewing the workouts before allowing them to be released for athlete safety?
Maybe!
It been a long time since I’ve listened to your podcast, etc. everything you said here is spot on and a great perspective
I haven't been exposed to a ton of your content, but recently just started finding it in my feed. I really appreciate your level-headed perspective on all this. We need more voices like yours amplifying the right way of moving forward after what happened if we're to expect there to be positive change we can believe CrossFit is actually going to commit to.
I appreciate that!
Thank you for your words and perspective John, very much appreciated
Hubris or a superiority complex...correct...
I appreciate that you spoke plainly and offered practical methods to improve the situation. I’ve been in the military for over 20 years so that shapes a lot of my views. In previous interviews Don mentioned that nearly the whole company works remotely. It is hard for me to imagine that changing culture is easy when you aren’t going through hard things with your coworkers in person. I believe that is why the affiliates have a similar effect of being close with other communities like a church groups, support groups, sports teams, or military units. It is easier to ignore issues when it is a task on a to-do list, than a conversation with a coworker. I’m an introvert with social anxiety, and even I encourage more time together.
The remote situation is definitely a huge obstacle!
Disagree that athletes couldn’t choose for themselves to continue competing or not. Also the conversation was not we are gonna compete you in or out. It was do you even want to continue or not. If so what does that look like. And they had a long discussion over it. I think a lot of what you said is spot on and I appreciate your input and perspective! Let’s move forward and get better and hold each other accountable
Well said. Great perspective on this topic.
Thank you for so eloquently stating what I think most are feeling. Accountability is a must at this point, but so is love, kindness and grace. It breaks my heart this had to happen to change to take place, but I hope we can honor Lazar and make the changes needed for a safe and healthier community and games moving forward.
Thank you!
Yeah, two near deaths in recent CF Games open water events wasn't enough. (And only near because of being very luckily rescued by another competitor.) Need to have an actual drowning with a fully clear view on worldwide livestream of a star athlete splashing and struggling for 43 seconds as two paddleboarders stand around watching the race. Pretty hard to "love", "community", distance, and gaslight your way out of this one, boys. Oh, but they are trying.
I'm so glad that you mentioned humility because I felt in CrossFit there's this mentality that these athletes are the fittest in the world. Accidents can even happen to the fittest in the world.
Wait for the medical report and hold the CrossFit safety team accountable! I grew up playing water polo like Lazar! (I still play at age 43.)If Lazar was tired he would have breast stroked. If he cramped up he would have still stayed above water.
So what are you suspecting caused him to have such a much worse time of it than the other 78, even to the point of going under? Are you suspecting a heart attack...or?
@@vanillaghetto I would be surprised if it wasn't a heart attack or something just as severe. You don't just go under that quickly unless you release all your air from your lungs. Growing up I was a junior lifeguard for a California state beach (My two sons are JG's now) and we did run swim runs all the time. The swim portion for me was always a relief. I don't think he went under because he was tired. If he had a cramp he would have slowed down and tread water, but not sunk. I am only speaking from personal experience and observation. Sometimes during Water Polo scrimmages I get super tired and winded because of all the back and forth and sometimes I play the Set position. (It is the hardest sport in the world) It's a gnarly feeling, but never have I started drowning because I was tanked. This is because I am a water polo player.
Lazar wasn't just any CrossFit athlete. He was a former Serbian Water Polo player who played for 10 years. The best come from Serbia. He was even a lifeguard in the States.
My understanding is that Lazar trailed other athletes by minutes but ended up catching up in the swim. If the swim was longer I think he would have won the event.
He was either the best swimmer out there or close to it which is why I think it was a total freak event that happened under the "watchful eye" of an unqualified safety team.
I wish Lazar was still alive!
@@socalpreston He was struggling for five minutes at least before he went under, but yes, definitely something very acute happened. And probably affected his brain as well, since he didn't float on his back and/or scream to the paddleboarders or something. (I know he was probably gasping for air by the time he realized how serious the problem was.)
@@vanillaghetto He actually had issues taking his shoes off and he was slurring his words just before he went in the water. I heard this personally today from a very credible source that was there. CrossFit is hiding the evidence it appears.
@@socalpreston Interesting. I fully believe it. Fortunately, they can't hide the video livestreamed round the world, nor the witnesses. Gaslighting, distancing, deflection has worked for them for years...but a body and a video will put a dead stop to that.
Athlete unions don’t apply in this structure. Even if they all walkout at once, there are hundred or thousands who would die to be able to take their places, fans and sponsors who would still show up, and CF would roll forward and crown a new champion. Look at the beginnings of American Football. There were a lot of deaths. It didn’t change until Teddy Roosevelt got involved. Tragically, sometimes hard lessons have to be learned.
Powerful, truthful and passionate ❤ well said, sir.
I may be wrong but just my opinion. I expected some leadership from Tia, i get and respect that everyone has their own way of grieving and handling the situation. But heard nothing from her minus that interview. esp with her popularity in the sport, I just saw someone with not much care for what’s happened. Again i may be wrong and its just my opinion
Just another event in which Tia shows us her true personality. I was a fan of her, until I saw her risking her unborn baby's life by doing very risky exercises while she was like 8 months pregnant. Her ego and her champion titles were more important to her than her baby's safety.
Where should we start looking
Brilliantly stated, Thank you
Well done with this, John.
If they really wanted to force change and be heard every heat should’ve sat down for the entire event. As a collective group, teams, men, women, just sit down on the floor for the world to see. Show CF that they won’t take part in a competition that doesn’t put athlete safety first
who thought it was a good idea to host an endurance event IN TEXAS DURING THE MONTH OF AUGUST.
Dave. Where he lives, it is a full 30 degrees cooler, and no humidity. Always thinking of others.
A third party that they’re paying for? Will be interesting to see the results
Surely a conflict of interest if CrossFit are paying them. The third party are being paid by them. It doesn’t look good
What I am confused about, and not to lessen the responsibility of CFHQ, surely the swimming safety plans had to go through many hands and approval by local authorities. This happened in Madison I recall. Did that not happen in FW? Did local authorities not approve the plan?
A follow up question to this - If there was a reviewed safety plan, was it executed properly to how it was presented?
Other than open swim, that other events are dangerous ?
In the past I know there have been issues with mats under the rope climbs and rope length being dangerous. I’m sure there are others.
There have been multiple events in different years that put athletes in danger. Mat Fraser almost drowned in a lake swim, many collapsed and got heat stroke during murph. These are the ones i remember.
How you do anything is how you do everything. Hiller has made multiple videos on how CrossFit f’ed up. Roman breaking his foot, that’s sport. Brooke hurting her arm, that’s sport. The run swim was not sport, it was negligence. I don’t like the 800 double under workouts, or the 100 rep workouts. Some of the excessive rep workouts are testing who has the strongest ligaments. There has to be a safe but effective fitness test. I was at the games. Section 122 row 4. I was impressed on the production. The safety needs to be on par with the production value.
@@Shane_Peoples i totally agree with you. They need to hire people who are actually educated and qualified to design and program tests that are balanced and also challenging enough to find the fittest. Right now it’s more like athletes are attending Castro’s party and he will plan it however he likes.
Murph in Southern CA heatwave temps.
Culture starts with the leader.
I'd be curious if the PFAA or individual athletes on their own, brought up concerns about the safety of the event beforehand. There were many athletes competing that had been through open water events like this in the past and have seen safety protocols from previous games swim events, or even events like Wodapalooza that included open water. I looked back today and found a Wodaplooza swim event and saw a couple official looking jet skis on the edge of the course. When I watched event #1 on Thursday, I did notice one jet ski near the entrance of the water, but didn't see it much after. Curious if concerns were raised before hand and ignored. Or perhaps no concerns were raised by any athletes. Time may tell.
I completely agree with everything said. I think the mentality/culture CrossFit have served them well as a disrupters in the fitness space. It’s time for them for grow into a new culture of leaders in the fitness space.
This is undoubtedly a tragedy and I wish it had never happened i just hope that it is a catalyst for positive change.
Thank you for creating this and giving us valuable consideration and perspective
Love you xo
I want to hear from the athletes who tested all the events. Were safety concerns brought to the attention of the organization at that time? If so, what was the response from the organization? Also wondering how respected the test team athletes feel when that team brings forth programming concerns.
I've always had the sense from Dave's programming, the goal is to make athletes as miserable as possible during each event and through the weekend "to test true fitness" and that's disturbing to me. That mentality needs to change.
I’m wondering if the reaction would have been the same if pat or mat caught their necks in the cargo net the time they both fell from the o course tower in 2017
So hypothetically, if the athletes had a strong union that met on behalf of the athletes and came to the conclusion with CrossFit that the athletes should get to choose to compete… then it’d be okay?
It would no longer be an impossible burden on athletes to be forced to choose…?
Wonder if you can assist or be part of the PFAA?
And Maybe Hiller as well.
I’m chatting with them about helping
who knew the memelord could drop so much wisdom. Lot of good takeaways there and food for thought.
Im not just a pretty face 😂
I just wanted to say thank you for this. Very well stated.
Thank you!
I especially appreciate your comments about culture, and the ways in which the cult of HQ, which has refused, at many, many turns to deconstruct, has created the crisis this weekend. When you don’t create a culture of actual inclusion, when the white dudebros w their military indoctrinations make all the key decisions, there are no checks and balances. For a start: Adequate lifeguards, and those who know say a minimum of 1:4 athletes in these circumstances, and lifesaving gear don’t render these athletes any less fit, or challenged, only less dead.
Are you referring to that really "tan" Navy SEAL bro with the last name of CASTRO who is the Director of The CrossFit Games? But for sure blame it on "white" people.🙄
I think it’s good to separate the CrossFit methodology from the Games. A lot of people are combining the two. Good video though!
Agree 100%. Keep Boz, the rest of the senior staff need to go. Faul has been terrible. Dave has meant a lot to CrossFit, the methodology and sport, but he has to go for good. The only way to change the culture is to wipe the slate clean...except for Boz.
Third party investigator: You didn’t have lifeguards, water was too hot, no PFDs
CFHQ: Oh ok thank you
Rest of the world: Duh
Move the games back to LA and put swimming in the pool, the WODs in the pool back in the day were way more interesting than the discount triathlons they run in open water
The games jumped the shark years ago. It’s nothing to do with fitness anymore, these athletes aren’t the fittest people on earth, that’s just marketing and Kool aid, but the arrogance of the organisers and the chief programmer has bought into that so hard that these endurance events are confused with sport. It’s a circus show at best. Clearly a total failure when it comes to drug testing and then you send these people out in heat to prove what exactly?
I’m surprised Castro didn’t want the athletes wearing a murph vest when they swam to fulfil his fantasies. Arrogance to the highest level.
Have any of you heard of run/swim/runs?
So well said. Thank you😢
Thanks for watching!
i like this background the best
Do you think a lot of the issues actually stem back to the Greg days as I remember him & Dave having similar attitudes to outside advice or criticism.
Also I know certain people in the media space have shit on the idea of the PFAA do you think they will get on board with it now after this incident?
Yes and yes
Feels like Dave Castro still runs the games like it’s on his ranch. It’s arrogant and stupid to underestimate the effect of heat, physical exertion and open water on the human body, even bodies as fit as those in CrossFit. Time to go, Dave.
It was 30 degrees cooler and no humidity this weekend at his ranch. Always thinking of others that Dave.
CrossFit knows the lawsuit is coming 💯
Crossfit just has to make sure that if they get a safety team to veto programming, that they aren't vetoing it because they feel barbells are bad for humans...
Not even certain that a swim after a run is inherently dangerous with the appropriate safety mechanisms in place. I need to learn more about what makes it dangerous before I can even make that assessment; however, that would be the kind of veto that I would expect from them.
There is a danger in doing a swim after a run. That said, Spartan has a swim in it's Beast race in WV each year. It's usually around the halfway point(around 6.5 miles in). It is always heavily staffed and there are rescue teams on site and on the water for the entire event. In addition to that, ALL athletes(Elite,AG,Open, Michael Phelps) are required to wear a life vest for the open water swim. You cannot get in the water without it and not wearing it makes you disqualified.
Loved the video, but it is misplaced. You are giving crossfit HQ too much credit. They don't believe they have done anything wrong. Nothing I have heard out of Don on Castro suggests that this was anything but some kind of unpreventable accident, and the show must go on. You can build trust from a place of hubris and lies. Everyone saw this man die.. I don't want to support Don or Castro.. I don't like them anymore.. I love my home box and my holiday box and a 3rd box my friend owns that I pay a membership for but go like once a quarter, but HQ is dead to me. The games are done.. I will watch Froning and Fraser highlights
I feel if the PFAA wants a voice at the table about how the Games are ran then put some skin in the game. Are they willing to lower the prize money so that enhanced safety protocols can be put in place? My understanding is that the Games lose a ton of money every year. Increasing the budget in one area means another area has to be cut or the event loses even more money.
I dunno but CF has to let them to the table to have that discussion. It's an interesting point though!
Apparently, you haven't heard of "loss leaders"...or verb tenses.
Vague condemnation is no condemnation. I feel like you may as well say nothing if you aren’t willing to declare the error as you see it.
When will anyone dare to claim what they actually disapproved of?
You can’t say CF didn’t put anyone in the water. And the paddleboarders sadly were RIGHT THERE.
So I wonder how athletes and others feel blame can bypass them and fall in CF?
Is it that the paddleboarders we’re not briefed on their role?
Is it that the water was too warm?
Is it the order if the swim after the run.
Is it that they didn’t have first responders on site?
I fear the reluctance to be specific is secretly to avoid having somebody debate against their claim.
But how can we move forward if the grievances are not made clear?
No. Reluctance to speculate on what we don’t yet know is prudent. If I did the opposite you’d be back in a week pointing out my lack of due diligence. This video wasn’t designed for what you are pressing for. That time will come. There are plenty of others in this space that are willing to speculate though so Im sure you’ll get your fill of misinformation.
@@constantlyvariedconversations I’m confused John. How can you and so many others be adamant that there as failures and that CF needs to change, without being prepared to name them? If you’re so sure there’s issues, you must know what you think they are, no?
@@clivemclaughlin3920 Im confused why you cut and paste these talking points onto Pats post so I guess we’re even…
@@constantlyvariedconversations because it’s the same topic. And you’re deflecting.
Anyone suggesting there are failures, are effectively saying somebody is responsible for a man’s death and that’s not a light comment.
So, I’ll not apologise for asking people to be specific when attributing vague blame.
@@clivemclaughlin3920and I will soon enough. This wasn’t that video.
I find it impossible that CrossFit had not game-played this exact scenario. How on earth did they not have a strategy already in place for dealing with the death of an athlete? Other sports have one. If they did not than that is a massive failure of governance. If they did, then it didn't serve them.
Lazar was a water polo player and swimming 800m is normal training for these athletes even if they aren't triathletes - many posted videos of practicing the exercise, without patrol boats etc. This was a tragic incident but might not be a specific person's or institution's fault.
@@BernhardKohli respectfully, I must disagree. At any swimming event, there are safety protocols in place because anything can happen, cramp, cardiac episode, etc, that may have nothing to do with the athlete's swimming ability but with an issue they may have been unaware of or freak accidents. You must prepare for the worst case scenario. Not skimp on safety and hope for the best.
Also, the event was not programmed by the athletes. It was programmed by CFHQ. I think it is quite clear who must shoulder responsibility and the fact that they are yet to do so is further fueling people's anger.
If you are running an event with open water swimming you are as responsible for ensuring safety. No one is immune to drowning. Michael Phelps could easily drown under the right circumstances.
Not to be combative but do water polo teams do a 3.5 mile run in 100 degree heat before hitting an open water swim? I think programming was absolutely an issue here.
Bernhard, you are 100% right. He would do this no question without lifeguards, and probably has dozens of times in training.
I watched video of Vellner training without a life guard open water I think it was him. This was a freak accident...
Follow comments on socials from open water swimming lifeguards and safety personnel. There are about a DOZEN “water safety 101” violations easily recognisable in this event. The swim should have been first, but the water was too warm to be safe to begin with. Insufficient lifeguards and water rescue gear. No bright swim caps required. On and on. This was gross negligence.
Cross fit here in Australia is a non event and none talks aboutit.I rang the local radio station to tell how successful Australians did in cross fit their queation was WHATS CROSS FIT? Probably why nothing has been mentioned herd in Australia even thos Tia Clare Toomey took out the individual female event and two Australian teams in the mixed finished first and second.
Athletes union in CF is so unrealistic financially, it's concerning people think that is a realistic option...
Well since the athletes are from all over the world they can form an International Union. and in the end an International Union doesn't need to play by US rules. And a simple basic union isn't financially taxing if you do by the principles of just uniting workers and putting pressure on CF by striking. I mean the union I'm a part of is very very small (an Anarchist union) that can work fine with just 10.- from every worker they represent. In teh end you need a way for ppl to communicate, voice their opinion and vote on a matter and then you need a few more actove ppl communicate those votes to CrossFit. And if there is no agreement you put pressure on CrossFit. I think especially sports are in very favourable positions to form unions because you can't just scare the athletes by telling them they won't be allowed to compete, since they have a fan base therefore they are not just be replaced.
@@Siamotutti161 I was in pro sports for 10 years, and could not disagree more.
This is a US based private company.
There are maybe 4 athletes on have the following to affect anything and they aren’t making enough money to split their share to the 1 offs and up and comers.
Tia, Rich, Mat. Maybe a few others like Ricky, Haley Adams, Gui, and Roman.
Most people have never heard of these athletes.
This athlete union is way more complex than a small business. CF would likely reject the strike and just find new athletes. That’s what I would do, people will still watch the games. Tia is in her closing years and the guys side doesn’t have a superstar currently.
This is a sport with the biggest prize purse being 3.3 million on the year.
It is not healthy to just move forward. Accountability is beyond necessary.
They should just eliminate swimming events. Heavily muscle bodies and water just don't mix. Were the so-called lifeguards trained?
Ever hear of large pools, like in the Olympics? Visibility, lanes, temperature controlled, real lifeguards and life-saving equipment...you should check one out sometime.
Anyone that thinks unions will solve everything or are the magical answer, should quickly read anything by Thomas Sowell.
I hate the term union too. i just wasn't smart enough in the moment to describe it properly...
Two life guards right there watching the race instead! Easy where to look directly.
Legit question... Were they lifeguards or observers that were only in place to keep the athletes on course... Another question is why were there no shore based life guards or observers? They use drones to get media footage, why not use drones as a tool for safety observation.... This list goes on and on
what they must do next is go to court for negligence
Well said