2015-2016 was such an insane time for Engineer! So many ambitious balance changes that have since defined how I play the class to this day. Watching this video was a nostalgic experience, so thank you. Once again, your dedication to collecting as much relevant archival footage is not unappreciated!
It's crazy how powerful every class has been at one point or another, and it makes me wonder, what would it be like if you took every class and weapon at their prime and threw it all together in real matches
*Scout:* Baby Sandman's Guillotine (too fast to track, throws baseball stuns everywhere) *Heavy:* Tommy Gruvich (sprints to front lines with instant suppressive fire) *Spy:* Dr. Enforcicle (immune to Pyros, strong revolver play, impossible to properly kill) *Pyro:* max switch speed Degreaser, Reserve Shooter that works with airblast, and pre-nerf Axtinguisher *Engineer:* Great Wall of Sentry / Frontier's Gunslinger + Short Circuit spam
I remember when the Wrangler was first released and the absolute nightmare it was to deal with. An Engi with good aim and two other Engis to support them could lock down long straights and openings better then a good sniper. It was insanely difficult to break.
I think the gunslinger was the most important Engie unlock. Not due to its power, but because it has so much potential for more aggressive and fun Engie play. And thank god it came after the change where Engie could move buildings.
It made Engie actually viable and good in fast paced and clogged gamemodes such King of the Hill and the carts race (reson of why Is banned in many hightower servers)
hard carrying the TF2 community is like dead lifting the entire fucking gym. he's one of the many people doing it out of spite to the owners not liking shop lifting.
I've always thought the Wrangler needs the Equalizer treatment. Make an offensive version that loses the shield, keeps the DPS boost, and maybe reduce or remove the "cooldown" after putting the weapon away. Then make a defensive version that keeps the shield and still allows manual aim, but significantly reduces DPS, making it so that while you can keep your sentry alive longer, you are much more reliant on your team to actually clean up the team that's pushing in. EDIT: Oh, and the defensive version could have a name related to "diverting power to shields".
The Wrangler and The Protector maybe? and how about The Protector reduces sentry damage to 0 while active, while keeping the knockback and shield, like with the jumper weapons?
No, the shield is just really really broken. Even if the Wrangler didn’t do any damage it would still be powerful, just keeping your sentry alive for a little while is very useful. Axe the shield from the game.
@@tfx9223 I do recall hearing at least one TF2 TH-camr saying that the Wrangler could literally just be the shield and it would, at the least, still be good. But I haven't seen anyone really put that to the test (say, someone like Shounic who has run various experiments related to game balance). Yes, moments like the Sigafoo save only need the shield, but I'd have to be convinced that losing literally everything else the weapon does (shooting targets outside of the sentry's normal range, sentry jumping, getting the DPS boost, etc) would still leave it overpowered (or even good).
personally i'm in the camp of just lowering the resistance to 33%. enough to survive one extra pill or rocket and not much more. that way you can have actual time to react to a long range direct hit soldier without him deleting your sentry before you have the chance to properly deter him with the manual control. alternatively, if we're removing the shield entirely i think it needs to be stronger offensively to compensate, maybe bring back the old lack of falloff since it was never game breaking, and likely would be fine with the complete lack of shield. and regardless of what other changes it could receive, give it 80% self damage reduction from sentries when active so engineers can jump more freely another idea was keeping the shield as is, but making you *really* commit to pulling out the wrangler. the 3 seconds of idle time after putting it away would now prevent you from pulling out the wrangler again, repairing the sentry (this also applies while the wrangler is active), and no longer have the shield remain active. when you put it away, you do not get to just take it back out immediately. you have to take a lot of time to recover, time the enemy team may not give you. this would make any damage the enemy team deals to a wrangled sentry actually last long enough to be taken advantage of, while preventing other engineers from just tanking it for you while you hold the wrangler out indefinitely and causing the same exact issue as presently
Pre-2009 enginner gives me so much nostalgia. The first map I ever played was Dustbowl, and the first class I ever played was engineer. I didn’t know you could speed up construction speed, change building direction, upgrade buildings OR even move them. I played like an engineer at launch and died repeatedly. Now he’s my second most played class.
Toast to your magnificent works detailing all the histories, that's some serious dedication, and I'm happy to see it! + Seeing 100hp-on-drop Mini-Sentry again caused me an omega seizure help
i love how you not only go trough patch notes and updates, you mention the state of the class and the meta/strategies and glitches that came with every tiny decision valve did. its amazing really
I actually shouted pretty loud when I saw my own name, my old youtube videos. So fun. It's awesome that my old stuff has had a tiny influence on your amazing video, great choice not to private that stuff.
Oh my god, was the Rescue Ranger really released in 2012? My memory is putting its release at least a couple of years later. A well made and in depth video on the history of Engi's buffs, nerfs and changes. Well worth the wait :V
Lister dropping (to my knowledge) the first and only F bomb of their career, at the very end of a 2 hour dissertation, just to drive home how troublesome the wrangler has been, was a very powerful move.
I love that for all the crazy balance mistakes and overpowered or underpowered unlocks Valve has put out, one of the first new weapons they give the class seems to nail it in one - the KGB for Heavy, the Frontier Justice for Engineer.
@@GoldDragon20KGB got several indirect changes though. Weapon speed change buff and faster rev meant it was actually possible to switch to your minigun and get good value. Prior you’d get only one kill tops doing that
@@GoldDragon20 i think he meant that valve makes mistakes a lot of the time, but not with the frontier justice or the kgb even though they are super old. that's what i get from their comment at least
I love that part at the beginning where Demo and Heavy are around the dispenser. One with his bottle and the other one with his Sandvich. It's just so wholesome
Videos like these take alot of time and effort. I just wanna say good job and keep up the good work, creators like you should not be taken for granted!
This was an amazing video! I will point out one thing. After Blue Moon, there was a recent patch that changed building redeployment to not block healing from the Rescue Ranger or any of Engineer's Wrenches. This makes it much safer to move your gear up, as people can't simply gun down your buildings before they finish rebuilding themselves. Beyond that, you nailed just about everything! Great job!
The wrangler being future proofing for the engineer is an interesting idea, that makes a lot of sense in some way. It's completely busted if a few smart engineers are using it in a normal game who know how to exploit it well, but the concept itself is intriguing
"Natural Teamwork" mmmmm i don't know about that lol. just today, after many great pyro matches, i decided to go engi, and it's only when you pick a support class that you truly notice if the team gives an f or if they are just going for a personal kill (attempt) count. i had to leave three servers (the usual, plenty of spies, no pyro willing to spy check, a pocketed heavy demanding dispensers but never helping protect the nest, soldiers doing flashy rocket jumps that only lead to them killing a person and dying at the same time etc, while i have my stuff destroyed over, and over, and over, and over, and over) When you finally arrive at a server with good people, you inmediately feel the difference, you see people checking for spies, hanging around the nest if there's a spy, helping to protect the buildings instead of just spamming that they want one, etc. so no, tf2 doesn't have "natural teamwork". it has the same issues any team with supportive classes has, and even the pick rate shows the difference. of course i would rather die but get to do some damage or something as soldier/demo/demo/pyro, than to just keep hammering away for a team that doesn't give a fuck. Engi is my second most played class, and you can notice it with pyros too. are they spychecking or reflecting rockets aimed at your sentry? or are they just attempting some backburner kills, then coming to your dispenser, and watch while a spy saps it and do nothing for the next 5 attempts. a team oriented pyro plays very, very differently, but again, that applies to every class honestly.
What an excellent video! Each one of these always takes me back throughout the years of playing this game. I do hope that one day each of these will need a bit of an addendum... especially if we can see the shield removed from the wrangler lol.
I've started getting back into TF2 recently and I'm making a presentation about it for a school project. When I was looking around on the wiki and such, the info wasn't the best explained but when I watch these history videos it gives me a way easier time other than looking for 12 hours when I could just watch you and get all the info I need for a specific class! You're so underrated man and your personality when explaining is awesome. Keep up the amazing work! ❤
Man, i know it will come, and i will wait, my medic history video, i started tf2 in 2020, and started liking medic this year, and i want to know what happened to my favorite psychotic doctor all long the years of tf2, thank for the series mate
As a long time medic main:The medic update gave us the ubersaw which was the long time favorite and never truly dethroned, The release blutsager had no random crits as the initial downside but medics self healing was by default lower. Medic has gone up in power overtime by generally making him a better support with faster self healing from a variety of sources, and the crossbow’s sheer utility wasn’t Even good at first. It was actually bad until they gave it passive reloading, and only became uncontested MVP when it gave Uber. The Amputator used to be a straight upgrade to the bonesaw as it only had the taunt as a bonus, as was the solmen vow, but Amputator only saw use cuz a set bonus with crossbow. Nowadays all of medics non stock options have serious considerations except vita-saw, but the core meta of crossbow+Saw+which medigun fits here was established fairly early, already in place before meet your match. Medic is the only class to not really get hit by any devastating nerfs. Most changes were positive. Medic is an intentionally overpowered character kept in check by diminishing returns and limited offensive potential. To this day Medic has no increased damage options besides Kritzkrig. Every unlock lowers their durability or attack in some fashion so medic will never be a good duelist.
It amazes me how engineer’s wrenches (except the Southern Hospitality, lmao), the class’s most recognizable weapons, went from filling gimmicks to informing players what an engineer’s playstyle and game plan is by knowing their melee weapon of choice. The Eureka effect (usually) means they are very familiar with the game and they will switch between different wrenches on appropriate situations. The other option is that they WILL try and flank the enemy team for the memes. The Jag means they like playing aggressively (even on defense) and have some level of trust on their teammates to cover them while they rebuild. The Gunslinger means they also like playing aggressively, but they focus more on giving support their teammates (in Hightower and CTF they just want to piss people off) Stock means they prioritize holding the line or forbidding you from pushing further. It does not exclusively mean they are defensive, they could very well be on the attacking team. Their buildings may be further back, but you are NOT going further without a fight. Love it
you dont know how much time i was waiting for this, i knew i would take long but i didnt expect 2:08:52 hours of lister your content is amazing and a lot of peapole see the effort that you put in your videos, honestly you deserve more than 30k subs
Your videos are what i love to see on youtube, genuine care went into making them and not in a way where everything is just blowing up in your face, no, its just really damn interesting and fun. Well damn done man.
An absolutely amazing video, highly informative and extremely detailed! was cool seeing my video at 1:27:40 and man was it a rollercoaster of nostalgia going through the video, "glad" to see the wrangler is still broken after all this time, thanks volvo :)
One of the things i miss from TFC is that the dispenser did explosion damage based on how much ammo was accumulated when you detonated it. So you could block the doorway to the back elevator on 2fort and spies couldnt pass, and then they tried to destroy it you would often take them out with the detonation. I would love for this feature to return.
55:20 as someone who uses the pomson religiously, I honestly could go with out the cloak and medi drain if it means getting back player penetration and the more reliable fire rate, projectile speed, and a hitbox that actually hits. lol
I’ve been rewatching the Heavy and Spy videos wondering if you’d ever make another, this really made my day to see this, Your voice is calming and the narrating and in depth discussion is amazing ❤
Having played the base version of TF2, it was very different in terms of pacing back then where the game was better designed around something like a stationary engie. The only maps in base were 2Fort, Dustbowl, Hydro, Gravel Pit, Granary, and 5CP Well. Of those, 2Fort, Dustbowl, and Well are chokepoint fiestas, and Hydro rounds never featured that expansive of a playing field. Payload maps werent a thing for the first 9 months of the game. Damage, mobility, trickery, and player skill were all generally lower back then. There simply wasnt as much need to move your buildings back then.
I was one of those engineers in 2007. Battle Engi was fun on offense and was the only way to show how level 1 and 2 sentries could contribute. When Valve bestowed upon us the miracle that was the mini-sentry we did praise them with much devotion, for we were not worthy. And we were much reviled by our own teammates. I probably didn't use the normal wrench again for years.
the amount of nostalgia these "Evolution of" videos bring me as I hear about all those updates I played through and eagerly awaited all those years ago is second to none eagerly awaiting the rest, keep up this fantastic work
I bought the game in 2008 and mained engie since day one, and your video reminded me a ton of things I had forgotten, whether they were frustrations or astonishment, and more importantly the order and the reasons of all changes that we have been through. It was long but not boring and pleasant till the end. Nostalgic experience as dear Uncle said below. Well done !
Demoman counter a sentry, thank you for saying that, once i played as spy the enemy team had a sentry nest with pyro and i couldn't destroy it, then one of my teammates demomad started crying "we have a useless spy, who can't take care of the nest."
Your nuanced and balanced approach to showing pros and cons, and your use of background footage "surveilling" us about what's going on, make this a really well made video.
Such a fantastic video. Extremely well explained and kept me engaged the whole time. Well done! Hopefully someday Valve will release another major update so that we can get new versions of these videos!
Something beautiful about not just the engineer, but loadouts in general is that to have an effective loadout and play efficiently, you need to not only understand your weapons and your buildings, but you team composition, its strengths and weaknesses, and that of your enemies’ team. I think that’s just one of the many things that makes this game so fun and recursive.
*First, another great episode from this amazing serie. You deserve way more recognition.* *And second, as someone who play since the 2007 beta, this serie bring me back so much memories.* *My 2 cents:* *Class stacking is what make the Wrangler that strong these days (and it's also true for every other class in general).* *Introduce class limits and it will help so much to mitigate the power of that weapon. 2 slots max for any class on a 24 slots server would probably be the right number (Sadly Valve never had the balls to do that).* *Next: I would love to see "The Evolution of Demoman" ?* *Thanks for your hard work !*
One time I was fooling around on 2fort and me and seven other players became engineers and just made a big sentry nest and one guy literally said- This is a scout’s hell. And he wasn’t lying.
I really love your commitment in this video. I have been playing TF2 since 2008, and you really gave me a nostalgia trip. Thank you for a great video and thank you for teaching the new player the TF2 history.
must say that 2011 engie felt like a well balanced class in all seriousness, he had freedom to set up anywhere, but he was still limited to protecting his nest and supporting his team
As a highlander Engineer i wanna thank you for talking about our perspective into things! I genueinly dont know what we engi mains would do if we ever got nerfed with the wrangler ahahahha. Thank you for this awesome history lesson of a video!
I feel like this would be a good place to tell you about an underrated gem of a custom mode called engineer fortress. It's a team of about 10 to 14 players on offense against a full team of Engineer Bots. It's shockingly fun with a lot of strategy
When i watch videos like these, it makes me think that TF2 would be more fun if we only had stock weapons aside from the most important ones like Sandvich and Crusader's Crossbow. Because 1:16 that could be countered just by using the Wrangler. The damage absorption can deny a full ubercharge if the engineer is good enough, it's crazy.
@@listertf2 TFTrue plugin can do that for you if you rent for a server. Give it a try if you got the money and know how to configure it. I would actually join.
this was awesome!!! been super enjoying the past few evolution videos you've been making, they're all so well put together and paced it was hard not to watch it all in one sitting. very excited to see whenever you do Medic, as he's one of my favourites to play and read about in terms of history/balance. he's changed a lot in some ways and not much in others, and has always kinda been in a weird spot when it comes to loadouts and weapons. thanks for the great videos so far, and good luck on the rest! remember to take your time king.
Oh wow, some of that older footage felt nostalgic. Rescue wrangling was as busted as it was wild. And glad to see some of my gameplay in there too along with Ten'Son, Gaberoll and Watercat :3
Imagine if the tf2 summer update comes with some kind of balance changes for engie, if it does so I think nerfing the wrangler might be the best option
I think it's funny how before valve looked attentively at this game, waiting and changing problems. Then everyone now is talking about how our "updates" are just bad community cosmetics (there are of coarse good ones though, like Pop's hat)
i would 100% watch this for every class, especially the beginning parts explaining the core game design and how the class was conceived, how it was fit into the game etc is really interesting
Amazing essay! A suggestion in regards to your analysis of the Wrangler: Maybe what it needs is a stat like "Sentry cannot be healed while actively wrangled", which would affect only multiple engineer scenarios, and not affect Highlander. I am of the opinion that the Wrangler's shield is still too powerful even with one engineer. Changing the 66% damage resistance and repair penalty to 60% will result in the effective health of a level 3 going from 648 down to 540, with base being 216. This is a tweak more than a nerf when compared to no-wrangler, but with the place the Wrangler is it still a chunk of HP. A wrangled mini (which is a menace not discussed in the video) drops from the 300HP wrangled to 250. Still a beast, but this reduces the Rockets needed from 4 (!!) down to 3 which is more reasonable.
@@nordgeit I intentionally went for 60 and not 50, since surely 50% was already tested and rejected. Dropping from 300% to 200% effective HP is huge, and my hunch is that Valve already tried it out and figured that given the low base health of sentries, not holding a wrench or the Rescue Ranger resupplying health while a sentry is engaged in combat tends to just fail. So 200% can be assumed to be too little, and 300% as we know is on the overpowered side. But maybe 250% given by the 60% resistance would work out nicely.
@@mishael1339 Give me like half a year to create my own map or two and I'll see if I can launch a server with some custom rebalancing I also intend to nerf the kunai to a max overheal of 176
I love the effort put into these massive projects that at the end turn out to be the most entertaining tf2 videos. Idea:i think the next one should either be medic or scout.
Uncle Dane put turtling pretty well in one video I can't remember, where he said something similar to, "Not being able to move buildings probably really sucked, I mean, I wouldn't know, I wasn't even playing then, but the turtling strategy that came with sentry guns being so vunreable is a thing of the past."
I liked the wall analogy for 2011-2012, so I kinda wanna expand on that so before that age, think of blu as a big drill, red as a wall, and engi's buildings as support beams in the wall, the drill would have to tirelessly run to break through the wall, with a chance of never making it before it breaks, but with also a decent shot at doing just that, but afterwards there isn't much of that drill left, its drill-bit becomes completely dull (player exhaustion) now imagine 2011-2012 sentries not as support beams within the wall, but another wall behind the first wall, that's how ridiculous it was
I never knew the Pomson starting out as too good was why it's so bad today. Also being able to see the 2015 and 2016 quality of life buffs to Engineer was great to see!
![The Evolution of Scout [TF2]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/_gTN3Is_PA4/mqdefault.jpg)
![The Evolution of Scout [TF2]](/img/tr.png)
![The Evolution of Spy [TF2]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/rHXzX-cQWIs/mqdefault.jpg)
2015-2016 was such an insane time for Engineer! So many ambitious balance changes that have since defined how I play the class to this day. Watching this video was a nostalgic experience, so thank you. Once again, your dedication to collecting as much relevant archival footage is not unappreciated!
Uncle daaaaaaaaaane
Uncle dane is here
Uncle Dane the Engie Main
unban me from inceltopia
@@bjornlindgren1774by the tone you called uncletopia, it's not hard to deduce why you were banned.
Love how half of this video is "history of the wrangler." Insane how it's been so consistently broken for over a decade now
@@octomal2523 tru
Spy's video had a similar relationship with DR.
Wrangler is Engineer's Dead ringer
Backstabbing or sniping him
why does nobody realize wrangler is perfectly balanced😢
It's crazy how powerful every class has been at one point or another, and it makes me wonder, what would it be like if you took every class and weapon at their prime and threw it all together in real matches
Ooh, someone should do that.
sounds like a shounic video
Sounds like an x10 server
Pure chaos
*Scout:* Baby Sandman's Guillotine (too fast to track, throws baseball stuns everywhere)
*Heavy:* Tommy Gruvich (sprints to front lines with instant suppressive fire)
*Spy:* Dr. Enforcicle (immune to Pyros, strong revolver play, impossible to properly kill)
*Pyro:* max switch speed Degreaser, Reserve Shooter that works with airblast, and pre-nerf Axtinguisher
*Engineer:* Great Wall of Sentry / Frontier's Gunslinger + Short Circuit spam
I remember when the Wrangler was first released and the absolute nightmare it was to deal with. An Engi with good aim and two other Engis to support them could lock down long straights and openings better then a good sniper. It was insanely difficult to break.
I never played during that time but I do get what you mean, a defense so hard to break not even giant robots in MvM can bust it would be awful
I still remember engies boosting to the top of the pillars in Mario Kart and just spawn camping indefinitely thanks to zero falloff.
Still is a nightmare to deal with if the engineers team has a brain to shoot the 2-3 demos spamming his sentry.
I get your point but the way you phrased it "3 engineers could lock down an area better than 1 sniper" is kinda funny. I mean it's 3 compared to 1.
could 5 sentry busters beat the defense? (I didn't play the game back in that time frame)
I think the gunslinger was the most important Engie unlock. Not due to its power, but because it has so much potential for more aggressive and fun Engie play. And thank god it came after the change where Engie could move buildings.
Also I knew perfectly well that Engie would be next after I saw that community post
It made Engie actually viable and good in fast paced and clogged gamemodes such King of the Hill and the carts race (reson of why Is banned in many hightower servers)
@@nicolasturetta7959 That too
@@nicolasturetta7959engineer is banned in hightower cause trolldiers take their goofy meme subclass ludcriously serious.
@@Skullhawk13Or because getting swatted out of the air before being able to actually play and have fun with their subclass wasn’t very fun
"It's been over 5 years since the Blue Moon Update and Jungle Inferno" agony, suffering beyond words
My man is the walking version of the TF2 Wikipedia page. You’re hard carrying the TF2 community
If info on tf2 is casual games,
then he is 2 stock heavys
Fr, dude these videos have become my new favorite long term series. I love these.
hard carrying the TF2 community is like dead lifting the entire fucking gym.
he's one of the many people doing it out of spite to the owners not liking shop lifting.
Nothing against listerr, but he’s not the ONLY one carrying the community.
Welcome to meta commentary videos
2 hours of lister!? It’s like Christmas morning!
A bloody australian christmas mornin'
Gives the same feeling as getting an australium drop
tbh I could probably get a engineer drop by the time hes done
Apples
@@askamikaze3936 Apples
I've always thought the Wrangler needs the Equalizer treatment. Make an offensive version that loses the shield, keeps the DPS boost, and maybe reduce or remove the "cooldown" after putting the weapon away. Then make a defensive version that keeps the shield and still allows manual aim, but significantly reduces DPS, making it so that while you can keep your sentry alive longer, you are much more reliant on your team to actually clean up the team that's pushing in.
EDIT: Oh, and the defensive version could have a name related to "diverting power to shields".
The Wrangler and The Protector maybe?
and how about The Protector reduces sentry damage to 0 while active, while keeping the knockback and shield, like with the jumper weapons?
No, the shield is just really really broken. Even if the Wrangler didn’t do any damage it would still be powerful, just keeping your sentry alive for a little while is very useful. Axe the shield from the game.
I think this man just solved tf2
@@tfx9223 I do recall hearing at least one TF2 TH-camr saying that the Wrangler could literally just be the shield and it would, at the least, still be good. But I haven't seen anyone really put that to the test (say, someone like Shounic who has run various experiments related to game balance). Yes, moments like the Sigafoo save only need the shield, but I'd have to be convinced that losing literally everything else the weapon does (shooting targets outside of the sentry's normal range, sentry jumping, getting the DPS boost, etc) would still leave it overpowered (or even good).
personally i'm in the camp of just lowering the resistance to 33%. enough to survive one extra pill or rocket and not much more. that way you can have actual time to react to a long range direct hit soldier without him deleting your sentry before you have the chance to properly deter him with the manual control. alternatively, if we're removing the shield entirely i think it needs to be stronger offensively to compensate, maybe bring back the old lack of falloff since it was never game breaking, and likely would be fine with the complete lack of shield. and regardless of what other changes it could receive, give it 80% self damage reduction from sentries when active so engineers can jump more freely
another idea was keeping the shield as is, but making you *really* commit to pulling out the wrangler. the 3 seconds of idle time after putting it away would now prevent you from pulling out the wrangler again, repairing the sentry (this also applies while the wrangler is active), and no longer have the shield remain active. when you put it away, you do not get to just take it back out immediately. you have to take a lot of time to recover, time the enemy team may not give you. this would make any damage the enemy team deals to a wrangled sentry actually last long enough to be taken advantage of, while preventing other engineers from just tanking it for you while you hold the wrangler out indefinitely and causing the same exact issue as presently
Pre-2009 enginner gives me so much nostalgia. The first map I ever played was Dustbowl, and the first class I ever played was engineer. I didn’t know you could speed up construction speed, change building direction, upgrade buildings OR even move them. I played like an engineer at launch and died repeatedly.
Now he’s my second most played class.
What's your most played class ?
@@Rick-cs3jtSaxton hale
Toast to your magnificent works detailing all the histories, that's some serious dedication, and I'm happy to see it!
+ Seeing 100hp-on-drop Mini-Sentry again caused me an omega seizure help
Do not help
i love how you not only go trough patch notes and updates, you mention the state of the class and the meta/strategies and glitches that came with every tiny decision valve did. its amazing really
I actually shouted pretty loud when I saw my own name, my old youtube videos. So fun.
It's awesome that my old stuff has had a tiny influence on your amazing video, great choice not to private that stuff.
Oh my god, was the Rescue Ranger really released in 2012? My memory is putting its release at least a couple of years later. A well made and in depth video on the history of Engi's buffs, nerfs and changes. Well worth the wait :V
If it makes you feel better, it was released December 2012 in Mecha Engine. It was basically 2013
Lister dropping (to my knowledge) the first and only F bomb of their career, at the very end of a 2 hour dissertation, just to drive home how troublesome the wrangler has been, was a very powerful move.
uncle dane lore
Frontier justice
Idk man, I rlly think you should move that gear up
I love that for all the crazy balance mistakes and overpowered or underpowered unlocks Valve has put out, one of the first new weapons they give the class seems to nail it in one - the KGB for Heavy, the Frontier Justice for Engineer.
The KGB is not the most inflentual/needed unlocks for heavy, the Sandvich was.
I think he means needing reworks or direct changes.
Because those two didn’t really get any
They’ve been the same for ages
@@GoldDragon20KGB got several indirect changes though. Weapon speed change buff and faster rev meant it was actually possible to switch to your minigun and get good value. Prior you’d get only one kill tops doing that
@@Skullhawk13in fairness you could make a similar argument with minis becoming healable being a change to the rescue in a similar vein
@@GoldDragon20 i think he meant that valve makes mistakes a lot of the time, but not with the frontier justice or the kgb even though they are super old. that's what i get from their comment at least
I love that part at the beginning where Demo and Heavy are around the dispenser. One with his bottle and the other one with his Sandvich. It's just so wholesome
An absolute amazing video you have made again. Its just amazing to see all that went into each of the classes through out all of time in this game.
Videos like these take alot of time and effort. I just wanna say good job and keep up the good work, creators like you should not be taken for granted!
I’ve missed really good quality videos like this in the TF2 community. Great job
This was an amazing video!
I will point out one thing. After Blue Moon, there was a recent patch that changed building redeployment to not block healing from the Rescue Ranger or any of Engineer's Wrenches. This makes it much safer to move your gear up, as people can't simply gun down your buildings before they finish rebuilding themselves.
Beyond that, you nailed just about everything! Great job!
LISTER AT IT AGAIN THANK YOU SOOO MUCH
I’ve really really missed these videos thank you for making these it made my whole day
The wrangler being future proofing for the engineer is an interesting idea, that makes a lot of sense in some way.
It's completely busted if a few smart engineers are using it in a normal game who know how to exploit it well, but the concept itself is intriguing
It’s crazy to think that an old FPS game like TF2 mastered the one thing every other hero game that came after it could not…
*Natural Teamwork*
"Natural Teamwork" mmmmm i don't know about that lol. just today, after many great pyro matches, i decided to go engi, and it's only when you pick a support class that you truly notice if the team gives an f or if they are just going for a personal kill (attempt) count. i had to leave three servers (the usual, plenty of spies, no pyro willing to spy check, a pocketed heavy demanding dispensers but never helping protect the nest, soldiers doing flashy rocket jumps that only lead to them killing a person and dying at the same time etc, while i have my stuff destroyed over, and over, and over, and over, and over)
When you finally arrive at a server with good people, you inmediately feel the difference, you see people checking for spies, hanging around the nest if there's a spy, helping to protect the buildings instead of just spamming that they want one, etc. so no, tf2 doesn't have "natural teamwork". it has the same issues any team with supportive classes has, and even the pick rate shows the difference. of course i would rather die but get to do some damage or something as soldier/demo/demo/pyro, than to just keep hammering away for a team that doesn't give a fuck.
Engi is my second most played class, and you can notice it with pyros too. are they spychecking or reflecting rockets aimed at your sentry? or are they just attempting some backburner kills, then coming to your dispenser, and watch while a spy saps it and do nothing for the next 5 attempts. a team oriented pyro plays very, very differently, but again, that applies to every class honestly.
What an excellent video! Each one of these always takes me back throughout the years of playing this game. I do hope that one day each of these will need a bit of an addendum... especially if we can see the shield removed from the wrangler lol.
Addendum video 10 seconds long: "WRANGLER LOST IT'S SHIELD!" *Confetti sprays everywhere*
I've started getting back into TF2 recently and I'm making a presentation about it for a school project. When I was looking around on the wiki and such, the info wasn't the best explained but when I watch these history videos it gives me a way easier time other than looking for 12 hours when I could just watch you and get all the info I need for a specific class! You're so underrated man and your personality when explaining is awesome. Keep up the amazing work! ❤
What exactly is your topic?
Man, i know it will come, and i will wait, my medic history video, i started tf2 in 2020, and started liking medic this year, and i want to know what happened to my favorite psychotic doctor all long the years of tf2, thank for the series mate
As a long time medic main:The medic update gave us the ubersaw which was the long time favorite and never truly dethroned, The release blutsager had no random crits as the initial downside but medics self healing was by default lower. Medic has gone up in power overtime by generally making him a better support with faster self healing from a variety of sources, and the crossbow’s sheer utility wasn’t Even good at first. It was actually bad until they gave it passive reloading, and only became uncontested MVP when it gave Uber. The Amputator used to be a straight upgrade to the bonesaw as it only had the taunt as a bonus, as was the solmen vow, but Amputator only saw use cuz a set bonus with crossbow. Nowadays all of medics non stock options have serious considerations except vita-saw, but the core meta of crossbow+Saw+which medigun fits here was established fairly early, already in place before meet your match. Medic is the only class to not really get hit by any devastating nerfs. Most changes were positive. Medic is an intentionally overpowered character kept in check by diminishing returns and limited offensive potential. To this day Medic has no increased damage options besides Kritzkrig. Every unlock lowers their durability or attack in some fashion so medic will never be a good duelist.
@@Skullhawk13 thats pretty interesting, cool man, thanks
It amazes me how engineer’s wrenches (except the Southern Hospitality, lmao), the class’s most recognizable weapons, went from filling gimmicks to informing players what an engineer’s playstyle and game plan is by knowing their melee weapon of choice.
The Eureka effect (usually) means they are very familiar with the game and they will switch between different wrenches on appropriate situations. The other option is that they WILL try and flank the enemy team for the memes.
The Jag means they like playing aggressively (even on defense) and have some level of trust on their teammates to cover them while they rebuild.
The Gunslinger means they also like playing aggressively, but they focus more on giving support their teammates (in Hightower and CTF they just want to piss people off)
Stock means they prioritize holding the line or forbidding you from pushing further. It does not exclusively mean they are defensive, they could very well be on the attacking team. Their buildings may be further back, but you are NOT going further without a fight.
Love it
And the Southern Hospitality means they hate spies.
you dont know how much time i was waiting for this, i knew i would take long but i didnt expect 2:08:52 hours of lister
your content is amazing and a lot of peapole see the effort that you put in your videos, honestly you deserve more than 30k subs
I thought that timestap was for when he said "f*ck". Anyway, I agree.
Your videos are what i love to see on youtube, genuine care went into making them and not in a way where everything is just blowing up in your face, no, its just really damn interesting and fun. Well damn done man.
fr man, I’m getting tired of seeing low quality and frankly annoying videos reach millions of views.
An absolutely amazing video, highly informative and extremely detailed!
was cool seeing my video at 1:27:40 and man was it a rollercoaster of nostalgia going through the video, "glad" to see the wrangler is still broken after all this time, thanks volvo :)
One of the things i miss from TFC is that the dispenser did explosion damage based on how much ammo was accumulated when you detonated it. So you could block the doorway to the back elevator on 2fort and spies couldnt pass, and then they tried to destroy it you would often take them out with the detonation.
I would love for this feature to return.
55:20 as someone who uses the pomson religiously, I honestly could go with out the cloak and medi drain if it means getting back player penetration and the more reliable fire rate, projectile speed, and a hitbox that actually hits. lol
Production quality is great, it’s well voiced, well researched, everything a good video essay can be. Extremely good work
I’ve been rewatching the Heavy and Spy videos wondering if you’d ever make another, this really made my day to see this, Your voice is calming and the narrating and in depth discussion is amazing ❤
I couldn't imagine Engie without being able to move gear. Yep, the objective's done, time to move to the next point and rebuild everything!
Having played the base version of TF2, it was very different in terms of pacing back then where the game was better designed around something like a stationary engie.
The only maps in base were 2Fort, Dustbowl, Hydro, Gravel Pit, Granary, and 5CP Well. Of those, 2Fort, Dustbowl, and Well are chokepoint fiestas, and Hydro rounds never featured that expansive of a playing field. Payload maps werent a thing for the first 9 months of the game. Damage, mobility, trickery, and player skill were all generally lower back then. There simply wasnt as much need to move your buildings back then.
I was one of those engineers in 2007. Battle Engi was fun on offense and was the only way to show how level 1 and 2 sentries could contribute.
When Valve bestowed upon us the miracle that was the mini-sentry we did praise them with much devotion, for we were not worthy. And we were much reviled by our own teammates. I probably didn't use the normal wrench again for years.
the amount of nostalgia these "Evolution of" videos bring me as I hear about all those updates I played through and eagerly awaited all those years ago is second to none
eagerly awaiting the rest, keep up this fantastic work
I bought the game in 2008 and mained engie since day one, and your video reminded me a ton of things I had forgotten, whether they were frustrations or astonishment, and more importantly the order and the reasons of all changes that we have been through. It was long but not boring and pleasant till the end. Nostalgic experience as dear Uncle said below. Well done !
Demoman counter a sentry, thank you for saying that, once i played as spy the enemy team had a sentry nest with pyro and i couldn't destroy it, then one of my teammates demomad started crying "we have a useless spy, who can't take care of the nest."
Your nuanced and balanced approach to showing pros and cons, and your use of background footage "surveilling" us about what's going on, make this a really well made video.
So excited to watch another video in this series! Your videos are a real treat to watch, thank you for all the effort you put into them.
that short-circuit footage of the engineers just rushing down soldiers and demos was so fucking funny
Such a fantastic video. Extremely well explained and kept me engaged the whole time. Well done! Hopefully someday Valve will release another major update so that we can get new versions of these videos!
Something beautiful about not just the engineer, but loadouts in general is that to have an effective loadout and play efficiently, you need to not only understand your weapons and your buildings, but you team composition, its strengths and weaknesses, and that of your enemies’ team. I think that’s just one of the many things that makes this game so fun and recursive.
I love how through the footage we can see how tf2 went from a pretty static gameplay to a very dynamic one
You hit it out of the park once again. Fascinating stuff
*First, another great episode from this amazing serie. You deserve way more recognition.*
*And second, as someone who play since the 2007 beta, this serie bring me back so much memories.*
*My 2 cents:*
*Class stacking is what make the Wrangler that strong these days (and it's also true for every other class in general).*
*Introduce class limits and it will help so much to mitigate the power of that weapon. 2 slots max for any class on a 24 slots server would probably be the right number (Sadly Valve never had the balls to do that).*
*Next: I would love to see "The Evolution of Demoman" ?*
*Thanks for your hard work !*
I discovered this channel just a couple of days ago and now there’s a fresh upload after a 5 month break? What a luck to me
Name someone from the TF2 community who makes videos that are as long and as qualitative as Lister's, and uploads them as frequently. I'll wait
R34 is technically a part of the community
@@orlandodanielgonzalezalcar3360if you find me a 2 hour porn video with the quality of this, I’ll be set for life.
lazypurple maybe
@@orlandodanielgonzalezalcar3360 lil bro what
Your narration in this video is excellent. I feel even someone completely unaware of TF2 could watch the video and be enthralled.
One time I was fooling around on 2fort and me and seven other players became engineers and just made a big sentry nest and one guy literally said- This is a scout’s hell. And he wasn’t lying.
Nah. You’d need at least one Natascha for that to be truly scout’s hell.
I really love your commitment in this video. I have been playing TF2 since 2008, and you really gave me a nostalgia trip. Thank you for a great video and thank you for teaching the new player the TF2 history.
Finally, another one of these. Keep the good content up 👍
Another awesome video! Seeing some of the names on the clips was a blast from the past too!
This is a certified uncle dane classic.
Roblox tf2 is better
@@AverageRobloxian420 both games are good
That "all wrangler" setup on upward actually gave me a heart attack
must say that 2011 engie felt like a well balanced class in all seriousness, he had freedom to set up anywhere, but he was still limited to protecting his nest and supporting his team
Well balanced but boring
@@jonkamberaj sometimes thats just how it is on defense anyways
I had recently watched the playlist again and this comes out, love ya dude
As a highlander Engineer i wanna thank you for talking about our perspective into things! I genueinly dont know what we engi mains would do if we ever got nerfed with the wrangler ahahahha. Thank you for this awesome history lesson of a video!
These videos are like historical documentaries
I feel like this would be a good place to tell you about an underrated gem of a custom mode called engineer fortress.
It's a team of about 10 to 14 players on offense against a full team of Engineer Bots. It's shockingly fun with a lot of strategy
YES I CLICKED ON THE NOTIFICATION ACIDENTALLY AND I DON'T REGRET A SINGE MOMENT OF IT
When i watch videos like these, it makes me think that TF2 would be more fun if we only had stock weapons aside from the most important ones like Sandvich and Crusader's Crossbow. Because 1:16 that could be countered just by using the Wrangler. The damage absorption can deny a full ubercharge if the engineer is good enough, it's crazy.
try TF2 classic
@@listertf2 Already did, didn't like it. I would rather purchase a server for live tf2 and ban most weapons with a plugin.
@@damsen978 fair enough. ive always wanted a 2007-mode where theres only stock weapons (and future buffs like moving buildings and airblast)
@@listertf2 TFTrue plugin can do that for you if you rent for a server. Give it a try if you got the money and know how to configure it. I would actually join.
1:28:55 that Scout Ragdoll, best ragdoll in video.
Another informative and entertaining masterpiece
this was awesome!!! been super enjoying the past few evolution videos you've been making, they're all so well put together and paced it was hard not to watch it all in one sitting.
very excited to see whenever you do Medic, as he's one of my favourites to play and read about in terms of history/balance. he's changed a lot in some ways and not much in others, and has always kinda been in a weird spot when it comes to loadouts and weapons.
thanks for the great videos so far, and good luck on the rest! remember to take your time king.
I love this series! please keep making these!
Oh wow, some of that older footage felt nostalgic.
Rescue wrangling was as busted as it was wild.
And glad to see some of my gameplay in there too along with Ten'Son, Gaberoll and Watercat :3
Did not watched, but i am sure its great done.
Hope to see more videos from this series in future!
"When evolution of Engineer gets posted"
*Uncle Dane teleports from sentry nest*
Imagine if the tf2 summer update comes with some kind of balance changes for engie, if it does so I think nerfing the wrangler might be the best option
u are stupid, the wrangler doesnt need nerfs
lister is the goat of TF2 documentaries
So this was why you vanished for 5 months!
It's an honor to catch an evolution video when it came out.
The evolution of evolution videos
I think it's funny how before valve looked attentively at this game, waiting and changing problems. Then everyone now is talking about how our "updates" are just bad community cosmetics (there are of coarse good ones though, like Pop's hat)
can't wait for the next class
these videos are so good
"They turned Engineer into Megaman" made me smile
i would 100% watch this for every class, especially the beginning parts explaining the core game design and how the class was conceived, how it was fit into the game etc is really interesting
if this doesn't pop off like your other two evolution of vids i'mma be upset as heck you put so much effort into these and it would make me so upset
Can't wait to see The Evolution of Scout, my second favorite class.
Amazing essay!
A suggestion in regards to your analysis of the Wrangler: Maybe what it needs is a stat like "Sentry cannot be healed while actively wrangled", which would affect only multiple engineer scenarios, and not affect Highlander.
I am of the opinion that the Wrangler's shield is still too powerful even with one engineer. Changing the 66% damage resistance and repair penalty to 60% will result in the effective health of a level 3 going from 648 down to 540, with base being 216. This is a tweak more than a nerf when compared to no-wrangler, but with the place the Wrangler is it still a chunk of HP. A wrangled mini (which is a menace not discussed in the video) drops from the 300HP wrangled to 250. Still a beast, but this reduces the Rockets needed from 4 (!!) down to 3 which is more reasonable.
hmmm
Let's do 50% first, just to smell how it goes.
@@nordgeit I intentionally went for 60 and not 50, since surely 50% was already tested and rejected. Dropping from 300% to 200% effective HP is huge, and my hunch is that Valve already tried it out and figured that given the low base health of sentries, not holding a wrench or the Rescue Ranger resupplying health while a sentry is engaged in combat tends to just fail. So 200% can be assumed to be too little, and 300% as we know is on the overpowered side. But maybe 250% given by the 60% resistance would work out nicely.
@@mishael1339 Only way to find out is to try it on servers
@@nordgeit Indeed, no doubt that this is how we find out.
@@mishael1339 Give me like half a year to create my own map or two and I'll see if I can launch a server with some custom rebalancing
I also intend to nerf the kunai to a max overheal of 176
23:35
That extra room being there freaked me the fuck out
I never thought I would see another of these master pieces
Your channel is helping newer players like me undertsand what it was like in the past, thank you
I love the effort put into these massive projects that at the end turn out to be the most entertaining tf2 videos.
Idea:i think the next one should either be medic or scout.
I love the old footage you have at the start. Amazing to get a look back to the early history of the game.
hell yeah can't wait to watch this video 16 times
Seeing the 2010 jerma & star tf2 gameplay is such a nostalgia trip, jeez
Loved this video so much that I watched the rest of the class history videos. You earned my subscribe!
My favorite series on the internet has returned!
Uncle Dane put turtling pretty well in one video I can't remember, where he said something similar to, "Not being able to move buildings probably really sucked, I mean, I wouldn't know, I wasn't even playing then, but the turtling strategy that came with sentry guns being so vunreable is a thing of the past."
I liked the wall analogy for 2011-2012, so I kinda wanna expand on that
so before that age, think of blu as a big drill, red as a wall, and engi's buildings as support beams in the wall, the drill would have to tirelessly run to break through the wall, with a chance of never making it before it breaks, but with also a decent shot at doing just that, but afterwards there isn't much of that drill left, its drill-bit becomes completely dull (player exhaustion)
now imagine 2011-2012 sentries not as support beams within the wall, but another wall behind the first wall, that's how ridiculous it was
Yooooo, I was waiting for this one!
Two hours??? Oh hell yeah!
i look equally as much forward to when you upload these as i look forward to lazypurple uploading his medic video
i do NOT say that lightly
I never knew the Pomson starting out as too good was why it's so bad today. Also being able to see the 2015 and 2016 quality of life buffs to Engineer was great to see!
YES!! Thank you for making this bro. I am going to enjoy the next 2 hours!
yes!! the next evolution video is out!! keep up the good work, i love these videos so much. i watch 'em most of the time in my freetime
Finally a new vid of class evolution