I’ve been letting the comments cook before dropping in and it’s both encouraging and also ...brain numbing. Thanks for integrating some of our experiences into this study, & definitely looking forward to the day where these experiences aren’t questioned or ridiculed.
Hey Bad! big fan! I’m curious since Benn seems to think that in a “perfect world” 50% of producers would be women are you finding large amounts of women or girls that would be but because of sexism aren’t producing? Like to the point that if they were it would be 50%? Not that you know "every would be female producer" but from a back-of-the-envelope statistical analysis what would be your percentage guess?
@@LordLoveaDuck 50% of the people on the planet are women. there's zero reason to believe that there should be any gender disparity in any career beyond the way we treat people based on gender. the science behind claims like "men and women's brains are different" is hotly disputed, and even in careers dominated by women like for example nursing, much of this disparity can easily be explained by the way we treat men in those fields as "weak" or "gay", which again goes back to the sexist way we view femininity as a society and toxic masculinity. So yes, in a perfect world, women would make up about 50% of EVERY field because they're 50% of the people and the biggest difference between genders is the way they are treated by society at large.
@@ZvoxSo the reason more women don't watch porn is because society thinks they shouldn't and not the overwhelming amount of free testosterone in males bodies? I've dated women that have never even watched porn yet I've never met a man who grew up repressed who didn't regularly (like >90% of men watch porn regularly. And the reason why there have historically been less female serial killers is because of sexism? 2nd and 3rd wave feminism needs to be re-examined as actual science has called many of its non-proven platitudes into question. Some of the best scientists working in this area are women😉
Don't allways realize this is such an issue. Nevertheless, i really like ur music because of the music. Some of your your videos have been quite an inspiration for my own musical endeavors. Thanx and keep being awesome!
this video was kind of depressing as a female musician but here are some good things-- -it's becoming easier to self produce aka it's easier to make stuff with creative control and no condescending engineers / high cost of a real studio -society will evolve more and more to continue to understand these issues + will improve (hopefully) -female producers gaining visibility, providing role models to young girls
Yes! If the only reason you and others keep wading through the sexism and bullshit is to be a role model to my daughter (and all girls and women or anyone who identifies as such) then all the thanks in the world. Maybe by the time she is as into music as I am, she won't have to deal with any of the things that you have had to deal with. Everything discussed in this video just makes my heart hurt. Can't we all just be humans that resonate with good music and what we love doing?!
@@Windiguana Women also like complaining, attention and drama more than men (on average). If only they could just do whatever they liked and ignore the noise, how great would that be? By the way, why weren't there more female composers in the past? Why aren't there more female DAW programmers, or how about Label owners. When music production becomes as easy as DJing I'm pretty sure we'll see more women making music.
Fuck, it's physically difficult watching Maddy Jay struggle to get through that story about the guy who ghosted her on that gig... you can see how much this sucks right on all the women's faces at that part in particular, and I fucking needed to see this. I know I've been guilty of this. I really hope this video in particular gets around and is shown to all of us. Been such a huge fan of yours since the flashbulb shows in Chicago I saw in the nineties and I have been delighted to see you find success on here and to be constantly delivering thoughtful content. Best music industry channel, hands down imho
As a female music producer, a friend sent me this video and LOL, sooooo good! For me, it really was about visibility. As I watched a music producer over the course of a couple of years (I was a voice teacher who would accompany students to the studio) I felt in my gut that I could TOTALLY do what he was doing. But it wasn't until I started noticing female producers (Linda Perry, Imogen Heap) actually DOING it that I thought, OMG, I could really do this! Battling my own limiting beliefs about how ridiculous it was for me to think I could, I was just so in love with the process of producing/recording/mixing that I just couldn't stop. It's been my full time gig for nearly 15 years now.
I think the sexual tension thing is not just about music folks. It seems like part of the bigger human situation we need to deal with. Thanks for calling it out.
I have never not gotten something out of your videos. Every one, without exception, taught me something. However, I did not expect to be heartbroken at some of the stories your guests shared. I'm not naïve, I know sexism exists day to day, but because it's not something I have to deal with, it's not something I often think about. I honestly didn't know it was so rampant in this industry. I thought - I foolishly thought, that musicians, artists, basically, those of us with a creative mind, would be above such bullshit. The reality mortifies me. Benn, thank you for making this video. I especially want to thank all of your guests for sharing their experiences, for baring their souls, for their bravery, and for calling us out.
People never fail to surprise me with their ignorance. I'm only 29, but it didn't take me that long to understand that individuals can be understanding, but a mob trends toward stupidity.
@@ItsJustAdrean You're not surprised at people's ignorance, and you've learned that individuals can be understanding, whereas mobs "trend toward stupidity." All valid points. Perhaps you meant to respond to another comment, because none of your observations seem to apply to mine.
Honestly Benn, this is heartwrenching to me. This is heartwrenching because when you told YOUR side of the story, I realized exactly how fucked it all is. Because I didn't realize that it wasn't normal to get "Advice" on everything that comes into frame in a video. I didn't realize exactly how many of my negative comments I wouldn't have gotten if I was a dude. Hearing you and Adam talk about how few specific condescending negative comments you get, being ten or even two hundred times bigger than my channel. Anywhere from 20-50% of the comments I get on my videos are people telling me I did something wrong, mocking me, or commenting on my appearance, often all three. Most of them, speaking as if I'm not in the room. Like I'm not going to see their comment and they're just talking to the other boys in the locker room. It's dehumanizing and demoralizing. I didn't know how different you had it. The statistics don't shock me. From my experience the numbers you showed are probably under-reported, because when women go through this, they feel forced not to make a big deal about it. Maybe they don't even get how big a deal it really is for men to try to hang business help over their heads in return for sex. I honestly can't even count the number of business connections and even work friends, that I've lost because they decided that they want to use their connections or their "influence" to try to get in my pants. I'd put money on most of the women who said "no", changing their minds if you sit down with them and ask them about their experiences. "No! Well, there was this one time that... But it was just a misunderstanding right? Isn't that so funny?" and then you just slowly watch their forced smile fade away when they realize that what they told themselves wasn't a big deal actually hits them. I've been on both sides of that story more times than I care to remember. Someone tries to coerce you and when they realize the answer is no, they laugh. Make you promise not to tell anyone because it was just a misunderstanding. Isn't it so funny? Or they threaten you. Tell you that they'll make sure no one picks up your call ever again if you tell. This is just my life and it's the only way I've ever known it. Thank you for making this video, not just for sharing our experiences, but for sharing yours. It put my experiences into stark contrast to know exactly how different it is for you.
I just read through your comments and "20-50% of the comments I get on my videos are people telling me I did something wrong, mocking me, or commenting on my appearance" is simply not true.
@@alexwestconsulting it's called comment moderation buddy! But thanks for proving the point and trying to baselessly "correct"and humiliate random women on the internet!
@@AliceTyrell You think it's sexism for calling someone out over unfounded claims of sexism? Get a grip. Your comment moderation consists of you removing 50% of your comments? Maybe you have a problem. There isn't even one remotely patronizing comment left. Nothing whatsoever as you described. Not even close. Not one. So if this is due to comment moderation, you've demonstrated that you are incapable of accepting anything that remotely resembles critique. You micromanage your comments to the point of leaving only glowing reviews, deleting everything else? What kind of egomaniac are you? And, unless you are willing to accept that this kind of material is dominated by men (I mean only in terms of sheer numbers and so the "sexism" is a direct reflection of audience interest/demographics (or lack thereof)), then half your audience is female, so women are leaving you nasty comments then? What, women don't watch you because "sexism"? Ludicrous. When Benn made his anti-Behringer post a month back there were many forums calling him out, some accusing him outright of some serious shit, and you've got literally nothing even remotely disparaging in your comments. No, you are bullshitting hard. And no, you are not some "random woman on the internet", you are someone who made a demonstrably unfounded claim of abuse that does nothing but diminish claims from people who actually face abuse.
@@alexwestconsulting there's so much blatantly false and provably wrong information in this comment, combined with so many logical fallacies, that is not even worth my time to tell you why you're wrong, but the fact that you're claiming to have gone through every video on my channel and looked at every comment, and talk about sexual comments about my body like it's helpful critique, really should be enough to convince anyone who doesn't have their head so far up their own ass they're like a shitty ouroboros.
I am a senior in college and i am preparing a PowerPoint for my Capstone and it is of course on female producers. I major in Music Production and Technology and i always questioned this " why are there less female producers? this is extraordinary and super helpful thank you for your studies.
Thank you. I am a female musician but have not really shared enough of my work publicly to receive much feedback yet. That said, I’m realising just how much of these attitudes I have insidiously internalised. I had put the bulk of my music-related issues down to a very general “confidence issue” and lack of education. This video has shon light on things I’ve witnessed constantly and even though I haven’t dealt with them directly as often as others, it has absolutely impacted my confidence and how I show up, i.e. not showing up at all out of fear of intense scrutiny and being treated as an imposter. I’ve internalised this to the point where nothing has felt good enough to share, and this has gone on for many years. As depressing as this video was, it has given me fuel to put myself out there and be an example. Very inspired and grateful for the women in this video. Thank you again.
I think what you are going through is also very common amongst male producers. I know a lot of men who think the same of their own work: not worthy of sharing. Luckily, today you can put out your work anonymously! Maybe that can be a good way to ease in? :)
@@aysegulozguler7712 doesn't matter if you put it out anonymously. It's still your work. People can still comment on YOUR work. That has the same impact whether or not you are anonymous.
@@antonyfranco2866 I don't think it necessarily has the same impact. Well for some it can and for others not so much, it depends on the person I guess. Anyway, i still believe anonymous sharing can be an easier first step of "coming out". Also then, people don't have to know if you are male or female, don't have to know your ethnicity etc. so you are at least protected from the bias/prejudice.. whatever you wanna call it. All the bias, prejudices etc. suck and i wish we lived in a fairer world too but hey on the bright side we live in a great time. Music production tools are more affordable than ever. Almost anyone can make some sort of music at home and put it out there and at has a chance to reach out to a huge audience without them having to know all the details about the maker of the music. I am not saying it is easy but it is easier than say 30 years ago.
@@aysegulozguler7712 That's a fair point. You're absolutely right, being anonymous can protect you from any bias or prejudice and I suppose if you're someone who may be more likely to be subjected to that, then absolutely that helps. It is unfair that a lot of women would have to do that when starting out, when they shouldn't have to. I guess it does come down to the individual though. For someone who is afraid of sharing their work because they feel it's not worthy enough, even posting anonymously can still be difficult. Whether you're male or female. For me personally, I take great pride in my work and I see a lot of it as a part of my self in some way. That creates a bit of fear when it comes to others perception of my music. So I guess what I'm mostly commenting on, and who I'm speaking to, is the people who feel like their work isn't good enough to put out there. Anonymity will help reduce bias and prejudice, and it would make it easier for certain people to start out, but it wont always help whatever you think, or your concerns about what others think. I guess the solution in that case is to just be brave about it and share it anyways, and just get over your own thoughts, and not care about what others think. Which is easier said than done I suppose--especially if someone is the type to see their music as a part of themselves.
As a dude, this vid will make me check my shit permantently...I was completely ignorant, serious kudos on how you presented it and respect to the artists/+ that helped give the insight I needed to see what was right in front of me. Totally blown away, holy crap...this was necessary, you did the right thing by making this.
There were a few things I disagreed with in the vid but I'm with you, specifically the negging stuff, sometimes its unintentional but I'll definitely keep an eye out going forward.
I don't know - I've been hearing this forever. We even have an organization in our area specifically to promote women in the music business. What I do know is that in almost any community, you can find hundreds of female musician wanted ads that languish with no response and a massive number of men competing for a few slots. Even mediocre female musicians can work pretty consistently. For whatever reason - and you can't legitimately blame it all on men - women are not going into certain industries at the same level men do. And it's not like haven't been great examples for them to look to. I've played with male and female musicians in many genres and welcome anyone who's open to playing the music and learn. One of the best engineers I know is a woman. But outside of the cassical world (choirs, bands, orchestras and piano), there just doesn't seem to be the same interest. It's similar in reverse for choirs. Choirs struggle to find men - but we don't attribute it to gatekeeping, but self sellection. It doesn't carry the interest for them.
I remember having my mind opened by Björk. I myself was just starting out, but even then it felt unusual to see a woman with that kind of creative power... Humbling to look back and realize how ridiculous my initial reaction was. Seems especially strange now because my own sister Danke is one of the most impressive raw creative and technical music makers I know of. At this point all I can do is enjoy being surprised by the good shit people are making no matter who they happen to be.
LIGHTS has been one of my favourite artists for a while, and the way she does so much, and does electronic and acoustic music is so cool, and even a few years ago with her multi-media project making a comic series and an album that go together, doing all the art, music, and some unique uses of social media. It was really cool seeing her live once. She can play multiple instruments and sing, which is more normal for acoustic and more singer-songwriter type stuff, but for a woman in electronic music to do so much herself is nice to see.
Now that's interesting because when I listen to Bjork it opens my stomach and I vomit. Making a sound something like her name, and her music, Bjjjjeeeeeerk
I approve of this video. As a software engineer with 10 years in games, and 7 years in film VFX, I can say this isn't just a problem in music production, it's a problem in many industries, full stop.
Acknowledging there's a problem is the first step. As a man, knowing how to fix it is not obvious. I've had to call out far too many work colleagues in my time, but calling them out on an individual basis just feels like I'm rearranging deck chairs on the titanic. I wish I'd be able to do more.
Coding is notorious for being packed with misogynists. This is in large part why my daughter dropped it as a second major in college. Sad, but I can't blame her. She showed me a little sample of one of the computer science learning/sharing forums she had joined. The sexist (and homophobic) comments that randomly got thrown around were disgusting. And she didn't even identify herself as female.
Innit. We have a few female developers on our team and you can feel the biases tugging at you even though you know it's nonsense. And over-compensating is also no good. It's sad that you disagree with the biases, and yet they're still in there somewhere.
When I was a kid, it makes no sense thinking about it now, but I didn't even know it was an option for me, because I had never seen someone like me doing it. Thank you for making this! It's very difficult having others understand how trash it feels to deal with ulterior motive sexual energy constantly. It's not flattering, it just makes it feel like you can't trust the connections you've made with people, because you've learned the hard way a lot of people have background intentions. Being an island makes it a very daunting lonelier journey.
Thank you for this. If I may I'd like to share an experience I had a few years ago which summed it all up for me. I was at a new artists' showcase event. Quick soundchecks beforehand, the usual routine. Two guys at the sound desk. A young woman comes in with her guitar, goes to the stage, asks "Where do I plug this in?" One of the sound guys snorts with laughter and says "Er - in the DI box??" really sarcastically. "OK, where is that?" she asks. Both the sound guys start laughing with eachother: "Oh my god she doesn't even know what a DI box looks like!" The musician is clearly ruffled but gets through her soundcheck. The next artist comes in for their soundcheck; it's a young guy, with a guitar. He asks exactly the same question: "Where do I plug this in?" Sound guy says: "Oh, sure man, yeah it's just over here, let me show you."
@@pgmjsd Exactly. The attitude of "you wouldn't get it" is so often based on bad assumptions about someone's capabilities. That's what was being discussed and articulated in that part of the video (very well, I thought).
I used to play drums in a band in my 20's. My set up for the drums didn't involve a kick drum. I would see guys watch me play and immediately judge my playing because I didn't use a kick drum. Also, everyone always thought I was a girlfriend with my band mate. We were a 2 person band. Interestly enough after 3 years of playing in this band, my band mate confessed that he was in love with me. When I said I didn't feel the same way, he told me he couldn't continue to play music or even be friends. Overtime, he apologized, we have remained friends and even played in other bands together. I must say it has been a challenge the whole way in constantly needing to hold my own as a musician. I don't share this story to claim victimhood or the need to get something that I don't deserve. I appreciate you bringing this subject to light.
As a woman who is playing around with music and really enjoying it. I cannot express how awesome it is that I've found your channel. I am also stoked to see someone as talented as yourself to working with FL Studio. But this video is unlike any other I've found. Thank you for taking your time to make this.
Thank you immensely for putting so much time into making this video! I've been lucky to have only had one feather-ruffling incident thus far in my professional music composition and production career. A label I was courting told me point blank that they thought I was at my best with a male producer behind me, which I did only when being hired as a session vocalist (and to boot this was after I had won two awards for video game scores I had written, recorded, produced, and engineered myself). So yes...we still need to keep this conversation going. Thank you again 💜
In her treatise 'A Vindication Of The Rights Of Woman' (1792) Mary Wollstonecraft noted that the fundamental divisions of society expressed in social relations and through politics, religion, morality, family life etc, was rooted in the idea that rationality and reason was naturally identified with men whereas feeling, emotion, sentiment was identified with women. Wollstonecraft thought it was absurd to say that women couldn't reason in exactly the same way it would be to say that men did not or could not feel--although many thinkers argued exactly that at the time (and still do today, "Men are order; women are chaos" as Jordan Peterson says)--but one of her most striking points was that due to these conceptions men were obliged to dress their feelings and passions as though they were reasonable whereas women were compelled to dress up their reason as if it was just feeling. That is, men would exercise power through the means that was made available to them, and as such claimed reason and rationality as their domain while pretending that what was just desire, passion, lust, emotion or uncontrolled feeling was in fact a manifestation of their reasonable power. And at the same time women were limited to express their reasoned and reasonable search for power, for control, for autonomy and authority over their own being in the language of emotion and sentiment. Wollstonecraft thought that this, as both a description of relations between men and women and of the organisation of human society, was a mutually corrupting catastrophe, not just because it de-legitimatised women's reason but, chiefly, because it legitimised men's passions and lusts as being reasonable and rational. In her view it was by these means--by men's appeals to being rational and reasoned creatures--which allowed men to authorise their self-declared position as the natural deciders of things; the deciders of what women should be and do, and indeed as being the natural deciders of what society should be and do. (And what is music production if not a decision making process?) She was spot on imo, and her ideas still resonate today, and all this was brought to mind by your tidy and tight arguments against there being significant or deterministic factors which make women or men superior or inferior when it comes to the musical domain. Perhaps this conception of the rational vs the emotional also explains why women producers on TH-cam often talk about the hows-and-why of their music making whereas men tend to talk about the gear! 😁 We each reach for the language both we and society expects of us. Great vid btw. 👍
Good comment - although that last paragraph confuses me - why would the hows-and-whys be more emotional rather than technical? It just sounds like a hardware v. software thing - and also not something that is _expected_ of anyone so much as something they just... _do._
Hey@@BroudbrunMusicMerge Good question. Because talking about how and why we did something is to talk about us and our subjective selves (how we feel about a thing), which can be exposing. To talk about gear is to talk about something separate from ourselves, something which is out there in the world, something empirical, factual, which is personally less exposing. But remember, Wollstonecraft says that social conditions force women to dress their reason in the language of emotion and men to dress their passion in the language of reason. Also, I popped a smiley on that bit, because things are just not that clear cut either, are they? 😁
This is true, you see this a lot with incels who try to frame their personal preferences (which are totally based on feeling, like what hip shape they like or whatever?) as biological needs that they're entitled to (which, as a biology student, is so ridiculous and annoying to hear). Meawhile they try to frame women's rational needs, like having an education and a career to sustain themselves, as a choice that they make based on impulsive feelings that they never bothered thinking through.
Yeah well you can take that bunch of commie propaganda and shove it. Men and women have different brains, massively, men have larger brains with much greater density of neurons and interconnections. It's biology not anything to do with society.
This video resonates with me, as an amateur musician & producer who recently started dating someone who is better at my primary instrument than I am, this enforces my resolve to not let some fear of emasculation lead me to subconsciously behave in ways that do not support her growth. Artistic success is not a zero sum game, and no single aspect of one's personality is so precious that it is ever justifiable to sabotage someone else in order to hang onto some inner illusion of superiority.
Oh my god thank you for doing this. It’s so depressing that sometimes dudes won’t listen until another dudely dude says it. After being asked more than once if my (non-musical) husband writes my songs... LORD BLESS
I've encountered that too. Not so much now on my main community, Newgrounds, but I find women have to show more than tell with their music? Do you post your music here to TH-cam?
I know my experience is probably so different from most women, but I figured I'd share it anyway since it seems there isn't enough positivity around this. I'm a female composer and producer who works in the video game industry who's had an amazing experience so far. Yes, I am surrounded by male coworkers and peers, but they have all been so fantastic. I've had countless male mentors who have genuinely believed in me, I have fantastic male friends in the industry who call me up once a month just to catch up and talk about nerdy music stuff. I've always felt supported, respected, treated as an equal, and I've felt that I've been given the same amount of opportunities as my male peers. In fact, I often worry more that all the buzz around this topic will result in opportunities that I *don't* deserve, or *haven't* earned. For example, I don't want to be chosen as a winner of an award because it's been 15 years since a woman has won it... I want to win it because I earned it. I don't want to be offered a position at my dream job because it will be good for the optics of the company... I want to be offered the job because I am the best person for the position. But of course, this is just my experience. (And I've had a much worse experience in my comment section on my TH-cam channel -- my comments above are fully about my male peers and colleagues). Maybe I just want to play devil's advocate here, but there are so many men in this industry who are incredible mentors, friends, and colleagues towards their female peers. We never hear about them. I suppose my only advice is, ladies in audio/music, find those people (women or men) who genuinely believe in you and your abilities, and keep those people close. And of course, don't put up with the shit. There are good pockets in the industry. Maybe it's harder for us to find them, but they're there.
That's so great to hear! I have found that the game audio (and gamedev community in general) is a bit of an outlier in that field and even though it's still heavily male dominated, it seems to be more inclusive and the sexism you see in the more mainstream music production field is luckily not as common as it is in game audio.
@@GuidoGautsch I did start my career out interning in LA learning under Hollywood composers and teams. The film industry is a liiiittle more… harsh. But I met a ton of fantastic peers and mentors there as well. Game dev DOES have bad pockets, (cough, the whole Blizzard thing) - so does any industry like this. Maybe I’ve just been fortunate. But yes, my overarching experience has been super super positive.
@@RachelHardy oh, no doubt! There are a lot of horror stories out there, unfortunately. There was also gamerg*te and that shone a light into some very dark corners of the community. I still have hope that this attitude changes though. I've had a bit of a read through the comments on this video and apart from a few bitter yet very vocal misogynists, the overwhelming majority seem to respond really well to this video. That said, I've been following bad snacks' channel for years and some of the comments on her videos are just..well, let's just say I'm glad she's still out there kicking ass and making awesome music and videos, despite the cesspit that is the TH-cam comment section...it only takes a few assholes to completely spoil a party.
No offense, but this is just survivor's bias. Your experience was good, and that's great, but I don't see why that should mean we shouldn't push for as many people as possible having an experience similar to yours. Most statistics that can be found overwhelmingly demonstrate there's a huge sexism issue in male dominated fields.
@@radiofloyd2359 I 100% understand that these issues exist and I do understand that I am very lucky. My whole point in this is that I hope we don’t just clump all men into the same category when there are many who are strong advocates for women. I’m a little worried about overgeneralization.
As a female musician this is quite something. I'm gonna have to let it sink in, it's a lot. Thank you so much for shining a light on it. In the beginning you said that you feel weird doing this as a man. I, as a woman, am grateful that you do. As discussed in the video, men take other men more seriously (often) and you used your platform to give women an amplifier on their voice. Thank you so much!
The moment Maddy said "what if I had just gone to the studio" absolutely fucking broke my heart. This was absolutely fascinating and unfortunately eye-opening, thank you so much for putting this out.
I'm SO glad she didn't go to that late night studio invitation. ALWAYS pay attention to those doubtful feelings. Why late at night in a Friday anyway? If the worst happens, the trauma would harm her music. It's smart to listen to inner warnings!
Yeah, I can confirm, that's basically daily life for a woman working in a male-dominated field. In addition to all the usual tasks of getting work done, we also have to think an awful lot about whether doing the job is likely to result in having to file police reports. And whether law enforcement would even be worthwhile, or if they'd make things worse. So we often have to make hard decisions between potential opportunities vs potentially ending up in a hospital. And when we decide to take those risks, we have to make plans for how to minimize the damage if something goes wrong... like, for example, making sure a friend knows exactly where we are, and having them get help if we don't check in every half hour. But for guys, it's usually just "go to the studio and get some work done", and no further thought is needed.
Foreal!! I could hear the tension… that slow single cello note in my head and have now been sittin hear in silence since the video ended… and gotta admit now I feel super shitty for having maybe the tiniest crush on one of these producers when I first saw them produce… (I won’t name names but I will admit that now that even feels cringy) I’m sorry you can’t have a normal collab session lk you would expect… and Mandy, I’m glad you have a strong enough intuition to not get caught up lk that… this shit never dawned on me and that’s pretty ignorant on my part but It always blows my mind what ruins a good thing cuz it’s never greater than the thing it ruins… I am only available for long distance collabs now because bedroom producer just took a new light…
That drives me mad hearing that Sarah has never been paid more than $200 a night for a show. She's honestly a significantly better player than myself and I make more than that a night and have for years. Touring is taxing enough physically and mentally, even more so when you're underpaid and undervalued. As a dude, it's hard enough to actually "receive payment" from some artists, and my guess is it would probably be worse as a female musician. Side note: The first artist I toured with was a black female who had a TH-cam following before she was signed to a record deal. She echoed the same sentiment of "they don't really believe I'm playing, so I have to prove I'm actually playing my instrument." She actually played her instrument, while I have played for many male lead singers who mimed instruments without shame. Also, we sat in a weird place of, she is black, most of her band was white, her music was much more pop, acoustic-y, and some white demographics looked down on her for being black, and some black communities deemed her "too white" or as a sellout. Also, the lengths we had to go to fight stalkers... 😬
That's fucked up, I had no idea what those numbers meant since I never been payed to play live and I live in Brazil anyway, so it would be way less regardless, but it seems they really pay her less just for being a women, which is extremelly fucked up
Pay for performance is a function of negotiation. Become a better self-promoter and salesperson and you simultaneously become a more successful musician. No one is "owed" anything. That is the truth.
@@TeddyLeppard yes I totally agree , males and females have been programmed very differently so females are often less likely to negotiate because they feel they are asking for too much or that they will be laughed out the room . I have often negotiated a higher wage / price for what ever I am selling and encourage others to when it is obvious they are under valuing their selves or service / talent/ craft . when you produce something high quality and there is a market for it , if you charge a high price , you are confidently assuring others of your worth and that you are the best in that field and who does not want the best ?
Benn, this is fantastic. Thank you for presenting this with all the research and interviews to shed light on a topic seemingly more comfortable to ignore than address.
Would you say it applies also by race, or is it getting better? I'm curious, because I know for some men, the racism is shown by what genre they're expected to do. What does it do for you to have it but as a woman? I'm curious!
He really hit me when he said women are biologically predisposed to be better at music and language acquisition. I guess that explains how I became a music producer and a linguist 😂
@@mr_confuse he does have a video on generative music that touches on AI and deep learning, iirc. He's totally deep faking his voice and his face, now, in all his videos :O
this is funny! and my instinct is to make the same joke! but I want to comment before it goes too far, parodying the problem to make a point quickly turns into just being the problem inverted. not instantly, but seek equality in freedom, not equality oppression, and all that. that said I'm pretty sure Ben faked this video using toothpaste and a broken guitar string
I've been producing music for so long, it's such an important part of my life, but when I finally joined a tour with my spouse (also female) in 2013, we did a huge SXSW circuit and learned very very quickly the amount of negative energy on the LGBT community in some circles of electronic music is absolutely shocking. We had some fun and put on some great shows, but every year comes and goes and we just can't imagine having the energy to do it again. Maybe more conversations like this will change that.
"the amount of negative energy on the LGBT community in some circles of electronic music is absolutely shocking" genuinely curious, could you please describe this in more detail? This just doesn't seem to add up for me, most people in creative communities (in music especially) tend to be some of the most enlightened folks Ive ever encountered. Most of the LGBT people ive ever come to know and love were present and thrived in this space. I would love to understand your experiences more ✌❤
@@beenmicrophone5817 As a fan, I agree. I felt warm and welcome in particular scenes which were in many ways built upon the work of the lgbt community. When I began to bleed over into a more mainstream trap / club scene, however, as a producer rather than just a fan, my experience shifted considerably. I met some amazing fans and had some wonderful experiences, but my spouse and I do not owe our success that tour to the managers, promoters, or fellow team members, but to our determination to independently network and have a good time at any cost. I'm not saying everyone, ymmv etc.
@@KattKirsch wow. you know what, I can completely see that picture you've painted. I'm usually on the side these days of being against the 'wokeness' so I really do cherish/appreciate getting actual insight from those who go through these things! I'm really sorry u went through that BS. That is truly horrible. I Think ben has done an absolutely wonderful job with this video, I just wish the rest of the world was as good at articulating these issues as he has done here.
LGBT commute has their own negative energy in many forms.. as a professional underground DJ I have seen it first hand.. if they don't want the negativity perhaps they should first respect themselves and others.. watching this group abuse drugs and the youth is hard to deny..
I love that you drew attention to homophily and the tendencies of systems / niches / fields to provide an environment most welcoming to those who are already in it - thus entrenching disparities. It shows how easily - even without ill-intentions - disparities can take hold. Disparity doesn't necessarily need or imply active oppression. But this doesn't just mean that disparity needs no active oppressor - it also means that we all have to be vigilant not to let environments/groups we are part of become exclusive by making them only welcoming to people just like ourselves - and that we can benefit from "de-homogenization" by creating more open, welcoming spaces.
@@BroudbrunMusicMerge Hmm... I think the interesting part is that it's a bit more insidious than just explicit in-group/out-group thinking - in that "in-group/out-group mentality" refers to negative judgements (implicit or explicit) about the out-group from the in-group, whereas for homophily you don't need any negative judgements/behavior toward others. With homophily, people and institutions themselves can be completely free of negative attitudes/dispositions, but spaces/environments they have shaped will naturally be shaped to best fit (the mean of) the people who have populated and shaped them. This alone - without any negative thought, judgement or action - without any toxicity - can have the effect of alienating others from even wanting to enter that space if these others find the environment somehow off-putting/too foreign - they cannot imagine identifying with it. Looking at it from the other side - a space/environment already shaped by a certain group will also have a stronger pull-effect on members of the group than on non-members. What this means in the end is that overcoming the obstacle of homophily and achieving more diversification is a thing that requires something from all of us. Both a conscious effort to keep the spaces/environments we create and shape open and to communicate this (of course there is no such requirement for private spaces/environments - but there is e.g. for places of work) - and the courage to enter spaces which maybe until now have been shaped by people not from a certain group you are a member of. Personally, I don't think a truly equal society would ever have complete gender-parity for all jobs, hobbies/interests and areas of engagement in general, because it would be a true miracle if there were *no* differences in the distributions of *levels of interest* [not "ability"] over various areas of engagement between genders. That may well have not just social, but also biological causal factors mediated via the shaping of interests during developmental periods where there are sex-differences in neuro-cognitive development which in the median disappear later, but leave differently tailed distributions. But what we certainly can and must do is to make explicit effort to remove barriers - we can make and keep the spaces we create open to join (and co-shape) for everyone. Awareness of homophily means to be aware that when diversification happens in a space one is part of, it's important to pay attention to whether that space provides obstacles to integration, and to address them where they arise. It also means to be aware that that this can happen even without any negative judgement/disposition... so we need to be extra careful. Overall - drawing attention to the huge part homophily plays in barriers to diversification is also good for framing the problem to increase collective effort to combat inequality - because it means that a good deal of our problem is not "perpetrators against victims", but people together against problems for diversification and equality which (sadly) emerge naturally via homophily (... and also against those who explicitly stand in the way of equality, but they're not necessarily the majority of the general problem).
Yes!!! All of this. I would also add that another reason why we don’t produce or stop producing is we don’t get credit. We will do the work, record, mix, write the music, play.... and not get credit when the album comes out. And will get a “sorry, it was a mistake” for best case scenario. And that is after getting less or no pay. Thank you for posting this. I love your videos.
Know many women in publishing who’ve had the same problem. Where they’d write all the insert comments, filler between sections in magazines, most of the content for cover discs (if there was one)… but their editor would get the credit because he wrote the letter on the front page.
I know this video is a year old now, but it really put a lot into perspective for me and I guess I just want to share some thoughts I had. This is going to get rather vulnerable, so I apologize in advance. I am a trans woman. I am a musician, recording engineer, and film maker. I started this journey of music and film making when I was young, and well before I had any intention of ever coming out as trans. Because of this, I know my experience is very different from a cis woman’s, and it’s frightening to think about how different my career in music and film could be had I simply been born in the “right” body. I’ll admit, I made a lot of my connections before I came out and started transitioning. I was very fortunate that most people I asked for help were very willing to break things down for me. Undoubtedly during this time before I came out I got to experience male privilege. However, the interesting part of this all is that despite this, in the time before I came out I feel like I did experience some of the types of treatment that those you interviewed have shared. I’ve always gotten unsolicited advice and inappropriate remarks on my appearance. Even then I thought this was strange as none of my male friends who made music ran into these issues. I might have just looked “visibly queer” or something to cause people to say those things. After coming out and transitioning I will say that I’ve been extremely fortunate that everyone around me has been very supportive and kind. But I did notice that after I started transitioning I feel like I did have to prove myself more to be taken seriously as a musician and film maker, and the out of pocket comments on my appearance have increased relative to before transitioning. But really the big thing that this made me think about is my place in all of this. I’ve never belonged on the men’s side of things, and even though I strongly relate to the women’s side of things, I’ll still never feel like I actually belong on that side. I’m always just stuck in the middle. I never feel like people actually see me as a “real woman” even though when I’m on set, all the other female crew members include me into their “tribe” so to speak. They’ll treat me as one of their own. But I still feel like I’m an outsider, and that I’m not qualified to speak on their behalf. This puts me in a difficult position when discussions like this come up, as I know my experience is different than my cis friends. With this, I’ve been fortunate to work with some amazing people in these industries that just so happened to be female, but at the same time I’ve always been the only trans person in the room. Even outside of this, I’m the only trans person I see on a regular basis. Another element to this is that of biology that you bring up in the video. I hate to say it, but the whole idea of sexed brains and studies that try and understand the differences of peoples brains is something very dear to me. When I started questioning my gender identity I repressed the hell out of it and tried my best to make this feeling that “I was in the wrong body” go away. After years and years of that, I couldn’t keep it in anymore and eventually started turning to science to just try to understand myself more so that I could learn to accept who I really am. I read several studies comparing the brains of trans people to their cis counterparts and took every bit of it that I could understand in. According to these studies, trans peoples brains are more similar to the gender that they identify with than the sex that they were assigned at birth. This was a revelation for me, and it perfectly summed up exactly how I felt about myself, but now I had the science to show that I’m not broken, I’m mentally insane, I just got a girl brain stuck in a guy body. Obviously people can use the sexed brain phenomenon for sexist elitism, and you demonstrated that well in the video, but I never construed it that way. Just because something is different doesn’t make it better or worse, it just makes it different. Apologies for rambling and writing an essay of a comment, but I hope I added something of value to this discourse.
You're not alone, sister. I transitioned, I make some tunes, and I feel like an imposter in female spaces sometimes... spaces that I seek to constantly improve (with my votes, with my voice) and fit into. I am a master mechanic in my day job as well, so I get parallels to this topic in all walks of my life. Life is fuzzy for us. That can be good, that makes our experience unique, though difficult. I remember reading the biological studies during the process of transition and gleaming a shred of comfort from them as well. Perhaps that is unique to our situation. I don't think about those studies often anymore. Since transition I have experienced many of the things touched upon in this video by these women. I have also been "othered" in very interesting ways by lots of folks regardless of gender, because of my nature. I have been living authentically for 12+ years. Things have changed and I've become stronger. I guess that's what happens. We seek a better situation, we fight for it, we get stronger. That's probably the best thing that we, as women, can do in music as well. I mean, I feel like I could be good at it after all this time phasing through spaces.
I’m an intersex trans woman and had a very similar mix of experiences as you laid out here. I didn’t experience instrument gatekeeping, but I got tons of unsolicited advice about posture and fashion and my hair and how I should smile more or move to the beat more etc etc. Indeed on TH-cam videos in 2009 I had guys my age tell me I was miming the guitar, some of whom turned out to be fakers themselves. And turning down technical discussions even when I’m eager to have them, that happened a lot too. “Oh you don’t need to know how it works, just what it does.” People often “mistook” me for a girl anyway though, and I know I got lucky vis a vis transitioning thanks to my weird chromosomes.
FEmale producer here ! 😂😂😂 "Unsolicited advice" had me rolling. My channel's comment section is bursting. When you tell them you don't need it it's "oh so defensive" and never " I should start my own channel and stfu" !
Wow, great video. Well researched and great guests. Hopefully this stuff is slowly changing. Some of the most amazing people I have worked with on the music scene in Ireland have been women, and as someone whose daughter is at the start of her music career, I would hope that she’ll be judged as a musician rather than as some kind of secondary category of “girl musician.” Anyway, well done. Great video, I hope it changes a few perspectives for even a few people!
I've thought this for sometime. When I was growing up and saw Star Wars I totally identified with Luke. Girls have a lot of practice identifying with male characters and their stories and being the subject of the story is so more predominant than their actual numbers. Young boys haven't been asked all along to find their identity in the stories of girls and women. And seeing how much pushback against movies like Captain Marvel or Rey from Star Wars tells you what a problem this really is. They can't exist in girls shoes the same way girls can exist in male identities and stories. Growing up almost all coming of age stories or movies for children had a male protagonist this seems to be changing and it's nice. Great video thanks for trying to tackle this.
That's very true, I've seen people who pushed back against trans representation with the same mindset because they couldn't identify with someone whose story or identity was different from them. As a uterus owner I have many role models who don't have a uterus and I fail to see how that's a problem for people to identify with those who don't physically or even mentally resemble them. It's sadly very rare for men to be inspired by women the way women are inspired by men. I don't know, for some reason looking up to a woman and relating to her is not seen as cool when you're a man? But fortunately lots of men, and perhaps more and more of them, are being vocal about the women they find inspiring.
i disagree with your assessment of pushback on female characters. specifically captain marvel and rey... the pushback had more to do with the new star wars movies being poorly written and captain marvel actress just generally being kind of an unlikeable jerk. nobody has any issues with wonderwoman or the tomb raider movie reboot or the games... because the actresses are likeable and they made sense. except for the new wonderwoman 84 was not good, but again not because shes a woman. nobody cared resident evil had a female star in the movies or games. i could give you a pretty expansive list of beloved female leads. there will always be some prejudicial people moaning about something but that doesnt mean everyone thinks that way.
@@squirts1 since you aren’t a woman how would you know? Men are over represented in all media and novels as the main character relative to your actual numbers in the population. So your examples don’t prove a corollary.
@@Iofflight78 I didn't say Men aren't represented more and didn't say I proved any corrolary nor was that my goal or intention... However, since you mentioned it, I'm actually saying that your assertion doesn't "prove a corollary."
@@squirts1 I know you didn't say that specifically, but it goes to my larger point, which is that, not more than a small amount of studies show, women are able to connect with both male and female characters in literature and cinema to a greater extent than males because of sheer practice and the history of what is canon.
Just doing this type of content, despite being aware of the femenist cause, is still a learning and vicarious experience for me. I assumed wrong a lot of times because I based everything on my experiences. Is true that men tend to listen more to other men than to women about this stuff, and despite being wrong, I see that also is a way for men to take responsability of the passive complicity of the denial of our prejudice. Sometimes even if you are not involved, you can be a firestarter. And you, have to say, have made think deeply into this. This is the type of content I feel I want, and the type of content that makes me want to grab my keys and stop slacking. Thanks to you and all the people who gave time for this video.
This shines a light on a number of blind spots I wasn’t aware that I had. Of course, these topics aren’t news to anyone, but hearing the reality of others from the perspective of an experience I associate so closely with-that of being a musician-really helped wake me up to just how limited my perspective really is. I have a lot of work to do from here to reconcile with the things that I have missed, and most likely things I have said and done, that should inform my choices moving forward. Thanks to the people who contributed to this.
This is such a wonderful comment and it's exactly the point of videos like this. This is something we're all guilty of. I'm talking about thinking our perspective is the default and not considering other perspectives.
What shocks and saddens me is the amount of clear psychological impact and suffering I perceive when everyone interviewed recounted their stories. The learned helplessness, the gas lighting, the emotional manipulation, the negging. Maddy Jay near the end as she told us her experience with the “the gig falling through” really saddens me, not only the act but the fact that she doesn’t even know if it was that or just “life of a musician”. This has personally clarified the sheer stupidity of men and how fucking insecure we are about loosing “exclusivity” to parts of life that separate and divide classes. The ability to work, drive, school, and even something as sacred as ART?! Are you fucking kidding me dude…..disgusted by it.
Very compelling. I feel like while this video was focused on music production, a lot of the points raised could readily be applied to my home field of software development, which similarly has a massive gender disparity.
This is so interesting to me, the software disparity, because I know it exists, but I have only ever worked at a company where woman are right about at 50% software engineers, myself included, and i have *never* experienced the "silicon bro". It's such a supportive environment all around. But you know what? I've been at this company for eight years because i know that culture exists at almost any of the other companies i could pick, and the thought of leaving my wonderful team, but relatively unstimulating work and less than market rate salary, to possibly have to experience that, fills me with anxiety. I know i could make more money, and work with people who are even smarter than those i work with now, and i could learn so many more things, but... What if I end up in one of those ugly situations i read about? Let's not even talk about the imposter syndrome. I hope you work to make, or keep, your software shop welcoming and a place where people can make mistakes and learn without judgement.
I know about this going for a few jobs in the tech field, gender and racial disparity is rampant. It really saddens me on the statistics I've seen on how many women get sexually abused during their lifetime. I hope one day our society as a whole can see how wrong it is and just get it instead of having so many closeted incidents
I was thinking the exact same thing in regards to software dev/consultancy. Something I used to believe was that we didn't need to raise up women/POC specifically (like through grants etc) since I thought everyone should be equal... but the reality is, the playing ground is so uneven that often the dream, let alone taking all the steps to get up to the professional level (whether that's software dev/music), is squashed long before they'd reach the stage to apply for any grant. They're told it isn't for you, if not directly, then in a more insidious way. It's pretty sad imagining all that lost potential out there, people doing things they didn't really want to, all because of something discouraging they were told during that "formative" period. Then, of course, all the bullshit they have to put up with indefinitely after "making it".
Thanks Benn for raising this important subject. I work in radio where a large proportion of producers and sound engineers are women and it's always pretty shocking when I attend professional-body conferences and trade-shows to see how far from the case this is in the wider audio industry. It's not just about how to attract diverse talent, it's about how to retain it too. If the culture is toxic people will just walk away. Keep on doing what you do.
Sounds like the result of biased hiring policies to me, probably to keep the bank happy with their ESG score, nothing to do with women actually being competent.
Thank you for the great video covering this important topic. My 8 old daughter started playing the piano. She fell totally in love with synthesizers and I am incredibly glad to offer her access and knowledge, how to operate the machines. Today (right after I watched this video) she said, she also would like to record her music. Cool, there is a Cirklon waiting for her amongst other gear. I hope I can support her motivation so she can learn and develop in peace and her pace, before these negative encounters can cause any damage. What she does of it, is up to her.
Hi Benn, This was the 3rd video of yours that I watched. I just found you here about 50 minutes ago. The video that first caught my attention was about how animals hear us. I've actually wondered if they heard us the same way as we hear us. The 2nd video was about sound pressure (dB's). In my past I have performed as a musician, was a Stage/ Instrument Tech, mainly Guitar Tech, and in my mid 30's began doing Stand Up Comedy. Basically my whole life, sound, has been a big part of, So I really found that video interesting. So, 3 video's of yours that I've watched and greatly enjoyed = New Subscriber. I'm looking forward to going through your catalogue of video's because I can tell you definitely have a lot of interesting videos that I will enjoy watching. Thank You
As a man, I found this disheartening - not just because I'm now a father of a 4 year old girl (who already asked for a guitar, and will probably have to put up with this bullshit herself, sadly), but because I'm guilty of some of said bullshit myself. Great, sobering, necessary vid.
@@honeysucklecat I am neither triggered nor a snowflake. I am not even hiding! ;-) You have a vibrant fantasy, or is it just cool to point your sweaty little finger at people and say stuff like that on the public shaming square for some 'thumbs up' because you can't live without the validation of some random strangers? ;-)
Dear Benn, Thank you for this study and this video! This is what we women need, on the job, in our day-to-day lives, in our social lives,.. Male allies! I Will share this with all my fellow musicians and friends! Thank you!!!!!
BEING HONEST ANONYMOUSLY OVER THE INTERNET: As a male producer, this video really opened my eyes and helped me realize that I have been guilty of both offering unsolicited advice and over sexualizing my female cohorts in the music industry. It makes me genuinely sad to think that my actions may have been enough to stop another person from developing their passions and/or pursuing a career in music and I want to offer a genuine apology to those whom I have affected and sincere empathy to myself and any male producers who identify with this. I am not perfect. I have definitely made mistakes in the past yet I am committed to making amends and doing right by my fellow musicians going forward. Thank you Benn for sharing this video!
@@Lilredjeanie - the problem is that he 'admits' to something and a lot of ladies who will read this and other comments here will believe that is the normality and that somehow they might have missed out on opportunities because of (imagined) sexism when many other things might have played a role in why things might have not worked out. This doesn't help anyone - it actually quite poisonous for the relationship between the sexes rather than doing anything good at all. All that seemingly benevolent talk about equality always seems to end in the most disastrous ways. There is not a single exception in history that there was a positive outcome. Anyway, the truth is: first of all, the commenter stays anonymous so we don't know whether the comment is real or whether it is someone or even a bot appeasing the narrative (yes, there is plenty of evidence that AI bots contribute comments). I myself work in the music industry and have neither seen another man behaving like this nor have I been in a situation were I would have treated a women with a lesser or even negative attitude as a human than I would treat any men. Maybe different yes, a bit more polite and forthcoming etc, as most men tend to do when they are dealing with women. The one thing I will make a concession though and where I knowingly made a difference between men and women was when it was about working in a recording studio. I would not advise young women to waste their lives in dark recording studios as an assistant or even an engineer. Working in that job requires a lot of things that I personally wouldn't want my wife too suffer under: very long hours, with often very difficult personalities. Musicians, producers and engineers can be impatient and overly demanding because of stress and then there is alcohol, drugs, very late nights, boring technical duties most women dislike. I haven't met a women yet who was looking forward to soldier in a new patch-bay enthusiastically.... Also in the 90's there were still bets made on how long it will take to run the new assistant into the ground or until he had a nervous breakdown. That was the kind of 'christening' new engineers would have to go through to show that they are capable of taking on the extreme stress situations a engineer in a recording studio could face... would I want any women do endure that kind 'break or make' endurance test? Certainly not! ;-)
@@ReformedWhiteKnight Why do your comments all gotta be towards women specifically? Why not be making these recommendations to anybody? This is what Benn was talking about when he was discussing gatekeeping. If you're here because you were interested in the message being conveyed, you should rewatch that part and reread your comment. Otherwise, your comment stands as proof of concept.
P.S. I didn't reply just to engage in a flamewar or anything exhausting like that. I just felt it was extra important to point out what I did given the video it was commented on.
@@disassembleverything I might comment and give advice (if appropriate) specific to the situation the, age, the sex, the country or whatever else might be necessary to be precise. Generalisations work but not in every case and to be honest if I would generalise there would be someone pointing out that I shouldn't generalise! ;-)
This video was mind blowing, and at the same time not. As an older woman who played many gigs in my youth...this video was all too familiar. Not just in the music part of life, but every day things. I was constantly handed the sword instead of the handshake. It ruined relationships, and eventually I left music behind for almost a decade. I didn't realize that the real reason, until this video. These women now are stronger than I was, and the inspiration I feel now-even tho it may be too late for me- is powerful. Thank you for taking on this very controversial, and deep dark journey. I know it wasn't easy, and maybe a bit emotional for you....as it was for me to watch.
I'm just starting my journey to become a professional, and as I'm learning I was also startled by the fact that there are so few noticable female producers out here. I had to specifically search to find them, because if I type in anything music related, there will be a dude explaining things. I wondered why that is, and this video is such a good preparation for what I am about to face that it already gave me the validation that I need to survive those moments. Thank you!
Great video and thanks for the books/reading lists. I'd also like to delve into the gender issues of techs/roadies and session musicians. Worst case scenario: Overweight, middle aged, proto-incel tech who threatens to kill you because you didn't manage his cables correctly. I've also never met a woman who rudely told me that I was micing a piano incorrectly. Even when I was following the pianist/engineer's notes to the letter...
Great job on the video! And thank you for introducing new producers I did not know. And thank you for all the women interviewed for great insights and for sharing their experience!
25:49 I'm not even a musician but this is so relatable in general. Whenever you're a woman (or someone people percieve as a woman) and you want to learn anything about a male dominated activity, there is this pressure. You don't want to ask for help to someone who knows more because it would show that you don't know everything yet, and it would lead to men not taking you seriously if there's any little detail that you don't know about. If a guy wants to get in a "guy hobby", there is no such pressure. If he doesn't know everything he's still legitimate. However if it's a woman learning it, people will always nitpick and doubt and assume she doesn't know what she's doing at all. That makes it so difficult to ask for help. The amount of judgement you could face is just demoralising.
"If a guy wants to get in a "guy hobby", there is no such pressure" "If he doesn't know everything he's still legitimate." That's not how this works at all Julie, from reading your comment it seems you have a self-confidence problem or at the very least a bad instructor. If you want to talk about it in personal experience terms, I've been learning from both kind of teachers, some who clearly should not be teaching anything because they lack the patience to do so, and other few amazing ones, that would go out of their way to make sure I learned what I had to, people who were clearly passionate not only about their profession, but about passing it forward as well. My guess is that the stress built up is what makes that difference between them happen. Sadly, there is not much to do when you find the "grumpy" kind of teacher other than imposing yourself more, specially if you are the one paying them to teach you. It might be scary at first, but if you don't demand the very least amount of respect, people will AWAYS walk over you, no matter who you are.
@@Srevengel see here's the thing: I say there's a difference between these two cases because *there is* and I know that because I have both "girl" hobbies and "guy" hobbies and I can fully feel the difference. Whoever I learn from, of course there are going to be teachers who make you feel like crap for asking questions, but that's not what I'm talking about at all. I'm talking about the fact that when you do a hobby of the "correct gender", when you want to ask a question, you just ask it, no problem. If you get a bad reaction, at least you know they would have reacted the same to anyone else asking that question. It's easy to know that your identity is not the problem. When you do a "wrong gender hobby", if you ask the question, there is ALWAYS the risk that someone, maybe even someone more experienced that you who could give you opportunities to go further in your passion, will think "she doesn't know because she's a woman". THAT is what I'm talking about. And when someone thinks that, you lose any opportunity to be treated decently by them, like a human with a brain, like a person deserving of help. You will be belittled. And it's not just teachers, it's your peers too. The teachers may be nice and sweet and answer all your questions, but to your peers you are now "Dumb Blonde™". And that's irredeemable because if "you don't know because you're a woman", then you will stay a woman, so these people think you'll never get better and they will always see you and treat you as dumber than others *because you're a woman.* That's what we want to avoid when we don't ask men questions. The fact that you think this is a me problem, even though there's no ill intent behind it, goes to show that you haven's seen or experienced how women are treated in male dominated fields. There is a reason so many people relate to this feeling: it's because it actually happens. Now of course it's going to plummet your confidence to have this pressure on you all the time and create a vicious cycle where you ask less and less questions by fear of being seen as Dumb Blonde™. But the origin of this cycle is in the fact that there are people who will see you as Dumb Blonde™ for asking questions.
@@juliee593 "I'm talking about the fact that when you do a hobby of the "correct gender", when you want to ask a question, you just ask it, no problem...." - That's not a fact, that's you talking from *experience* . I'm sorry if sound doubtful (because I am), but, when I see people describe situations like you did, where they are the victim of certain bias, there are usually a lot of implications they make such as you did, describing your teachers *and* peers as part of this cult that solely acts against you and your passions, and diminish your whole existence as being a "silly woman". These implications make your discourse seem way less believable, it's "the whole world against Julie", doesn't add up. "goes to show that you haven's seen or experienced how women are treated in male dominated fields." - You could have asked before assuming that but, I went to programming classes where most of the students were guys, and the women there were treated as goddesses, if they needed anything there were always a group of guys falling over their feet to provide them with whatever piece of knowledge they wanted. Furthermore, there were always stories from friends of mine that went to school describing situations where the teachers would actually treat female students better and give them more attention when explaining something than when explaining it to male students. And that goes for the female teachers as well when explaining to guys. If you want to know, I think we are both just ugly xD. It's something backed-up by science even, and I truly believe it, the fact that beautiful people are treated differently and that they are more likely to be empathized. I still keep my advice up, If someone is supposed to educate you them make them do it, you can't be the one to comply with shit like this because "there is an opportunity" to be made of it. It's like selling your soul to the devil, you sacrifice your morals and freedom for something you think you need more than your"self". Be The Dumb Blonde and trademark it, when the results of your curiosity and affords start to show up, you will be the one standing proud of them. And let me tell you, nothing speaks louder to successful people than results.
Definitely not a self-confidence problem. I know I can do pretty much anything I set my mind to, and I genuinely don't care what people think of me. When guys do the stereotypical hater thing, it feels about the same as hearing a dog bark through a fence. But that doesn't stop me getting treated like a small child simply because I'm a woman. If anything, when I'm participating in male-dominated fields like programming and systems architecture, confidence and skill tend to make things worse. Like, when I'm visibly better at something than everyone around me, that often makes me a target, because some guys are so offended by the idea of a woman being better, they make it their personal mission to take her down. So I routinely have to spend less time working and more time pampering the egos of the guys in my vicinity so they'll get out of my way and let me get stuff done. In today's society, a woman has to work twice as hard for half as much respect.
What a great watch, this was probably one of your better and also highly needed videos. I have been aware of these issues as a man who has heard things like this from women I worked with plenty of times, but never did I realize how bad it really is. I think part of that also has to do with how it must be really difficult for women in this field to even speak up about these issues, fearing the backlash they might receive because of it. It's a sad reality... This trickles down much deeper into our modern society and is for sure not just a problem in the music industry itself, this kind of behavior is rampant in many aspects of our daily lives. I talked about these issues within this industry in the past, only to get flooded with comments from men who defend the current system and label you a "white knight" the moment you say something about women's rights, just because somebody is a man, does not mean he is unable to listen to his female colleagues and explain their issues to fellow men. I had a discussion in one of my own communities about posts that sexualize women and that I don't want that in my server, only to then receive backlash from the men who write those posts. This just goes to show how much of a problem this still is, when men feel offended when other men tell them about issues women are having, you know there is still a lot of work to do to pull these rights into a level playing field. In the end I see it like this: _I would rather be labeled a "white knight" and defend women who feel their voice isn't heard, than being a men who is incapable of listening to their female counterparts and belittling the problems that they raise._
Thanks so much for taking this on and taking it so seriously. It's relentless. It's rarely enough for me to do what I do; I routinely have to prove that I did what I did. And then when I try to explain that reality, I'm not believed. It's exhausting and demoralizing. Thank you.
I have a 7 year old daughter, and I would love nothing more for her to follow in her daddy’s steps and become a self-producing musician. I have my work cut out for me in making sure she has everything she needs for whatever she chooses to do, including helping her to believe in herself like the musicians in this video, even when it may be hard to do. I’ll have to rewatch this from time to time to remind me what she might be up against. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, thank you.
If she starts a TH-cam channel, just let her know from the jump that there is always going to be a massive horde of dummies running amok on here. Having a pretty thick-skinned attitude helps a lot from the outset.
@@bb-sw6ur That's a pretty good highlighting of the problem we have. Daughters need to be taught to defend themselves in a way that sons don't. Not because sons are better at defending themselves, but because they do not risk an attack as much. Verbal or physical. I also think that thick skin is not as important as a sharp tounge.
@@draugormr8957 I think whether you are a man or a woman you still need to be prepared for people who abuse online anonymity to denigrate what youve created. Of course the problem is more severe for women. I agree about a sharp tongue.
I feel that my being able to pursue engineering/production has everything to do with having female mentors every step of the way, the present included. Hope your child can have that, too.
Draugormr - ‘boys don’t risk an attack that much, verbal or physical.’ I am not sure a debate is even possible with someone who is so far gone in ideological thinking... I got to make a screen shot of that that ‘comment’. This is where indoctrination and propaganda leads to.... people are unable to even acknowledge reality. They see something very different....
Hey, I just stumbled on your channel today and came across this video. I've been starting with music production as a hobby. I'm a software engineer and a woman. It's really, really nice to come across such deep, caring advocacy. We have a lot of the same problems in tech. (There's a great article from the Smithsonian that talks about how programming used to be "women's work", but as the job grew in demand and status, there started to be myths that it was too difficult and complicated for women). Thanks for making this. It really makes a difference in feeling welcome.
I've noticed a similar pattern in several different fields. Women are expected to cook and sew in the home, and teach children in school, yet nearly all of the most famous chefs, fashion designers, and professors are men. It seems like men have an easier time finding professional success in a patriarchal society... Time to change that!
I sent a friend to the music store, with a very specific list of cables I needed, including length, type, and specific connection I needed. In passing, my friend mentioned that “she” needed the cables… and the associate felt the need to call me to be sure I “actually needed speaker cables”. The repeated automatic assumption just wears on you.
is it possible the associate just wanted to be sure you got the exact cables you wanted given that you had a list with specifications? maybe your friend didnt sound confident in the request? ive experienced the same thing as a man...
I run a music shop and this is a common occurrence. People send in their friends, family , significant other, etc to pick things up. Just this morning, a violinist sent his wife in for some bow rosin. He called ahead to let me know exactly what he needed - which was 100% necessary because when she got to the shop I said "Oh, you must be here for the rosin.". She just shrugged and said "Hahah I dunno. I guess?". Regarding speaker cables: I've checked with customers many, many, many times to make sure that they actually needed a 1/4" instrument cable and not a 1/4" speaker cable (or vice versa). They look literally identical. I can't tell you how many times it turned out that the customer did indeed have the wrong cable. ..and the reason I double checked with them is because I could sense that they were confused, new to music, or a bit out of their element. (Most of them were men BTW.) I've also had to get on the phone many times with customers who were picking up items for musicians. They almost always seem very lost and confused - because they aren't musicians. They don't speak our language. A wife will come in, pull out a list, and ask for some Martin light gauge acoustic guitar strings. Pretty specific request, right? ..but when I ask if they want phosphor bronze or 80/20 bronze, the phone comes out and I'm talking to their husband. You know why I've done this? It's called customer service. It's my job and I care enough to make sure the customer is getting what they need. Their race, age, gender, etc have _nothing_ to do with it. I've been around music shops my entire life and I've never known an owner or even an employee who looked down on women customers. I've never even heard any "She's really good for a girl" type commentary. I've worked with countless female musicians onstage and in the studio - and even the shop I work at now is owned by two sisters - yet I'm still waiting to meet one of these evil misogynist male musicians who are gatekeeping all the women from excelling in the industry. They're a rarity now, not the norm. It's not 1955 anymore. 90-95% chance he was just trying to help his customer. 5-10% chance he was some Neanderthal who thinks chicks are too dumb to buy speaker cables.
@@marygard4608 sure, could be... But the assumption being made is that it's always sexism. That shouldn't be the assumption. If you look for something you'll find it (whether it's true or not).
@@squirts1 You're right. Never assume anything. But I think males, having been raised in no less a sexist atmosphere than females, can develop a mindset to automatically approach women and girls "differently". After all, I thought as a girl that all men scream and all boys will hit. Same kind of indoctrination.
I never understood that! If someone has a hobby as niche or expensive as synths, how do they get as far as marriage without their spouse having some exposure or understanding of their passion? I love sharing my hobbies with people, especially people I like and want to be with in a relationship. I can't imagine hiding that to the point that my wife would be resentful of my hobby. It's also pretty spineless to hide what you're spending money on if you're in a committed relationship. All of the married couples I know share finances. If their bank account suddenly had $200 (or whatever) spent, I'd be at the *very least* curious what is cool enough to warrant that much money.
@@8thlvlMage You put into words why I was always so irritated about these kinds of comments! Also a lot of them refer to their wives as “the wife”, like she’s some kind of despot or political instance. I know it’s meant to be a joke, but it just seems a bit unhealthy...
Yes that comment is annoying, and I get that it does come across a bit sexist but there is definitely truth that a lot of partners don't understand or approve of their spouses spending $1000s of dollars on hobbies. It's the same thing with women talking about how their husbands not having any taste because they judge their wives for buying $4k Birkin bags. I think that these jokes are annoying but fairly harmless on both sides.
@@8thlvlMage I think it's a lot more likely that dudes just make jokes about their wives not liking something they do because that is just bread and butter in men's social experience. Im not saying I approve of it, it actually seems pretty pathetic to me. I'm just saying a lot of men probably do it because they want to fit in with other men and not because their wife actually is incapable of understanding their hobbies or passions.
As a music educator, this is all awesome to hear. It's hilarious to me how often I hear "Well should my daughter be learning acoustic guitar since her hands are small?" No, buy your daughter what she wants! That's all there is to getting kids excited about music. Just let it be THEIR thing and get your parent ego out of it. Music is such an intensely personal thing that to try and imprint your own musical world view on your kids is always going to end poorly. I strive (and im sure often fail) at trying to remove as much of my musical taste from what I expose my students too. And for the love of God, never tell a kid that something they like sucks or isn't real music.
One of the crappy things about that small hands thing is that there would be more of a market for alternatively sized guitars, and thus more selection, for everybody who doesn't have giant meat paws were it not for that attitude. It's like a negative feedback loop. Never mind the whole lefty thing. Won't somebody please think of Benn's upside down guitars?!?
Don't force kids to start playing an instrument in the first place. Odds are once they get old they never want to play again because their parents forced them when they where young...
@@SyntheticFuture Facts. My parents tried to get me to play piano when I was young and I was so dumb that I thought pianos were only for guys who wanted to wear powdered wigs for a living or something. I didn't know about rock and metal keyboardists or any of that cool shit.
@@SyntheticFuture I disagree a little with this. I think there is a difference between giving the kid guitar lessons and then just seeing if they ever practice on their own, or giving a kid lessons and then yelling at them to practice every day. I think there is no harm in giving the kid a weekly lesson that is very low stress and low expectations. I actually ask my students if they practiced each week and then assure them it’s ok for them to tell me they didn’t. I want them to get in the habit of thinking it’s a low stakes activity that they can pick up at their leisure
@@rainbowkrampus completely agree. It goes both ways too, I remember Steve vai talking in an interview about how he designed his signature Ibanez in the 80’s for someone with big hands, because his hands were just too big for a fender string spacing.
ive been trying to get into music production for years now and it still feels kind of impossible to me. the higher expectations people have on women combined with my own intense self criticism and just general lack of experience seems to result in me regularly going months without finding the motivation to open a DAW. despite only being 15 when i started every man i know seemed to already have years of experience that i could never hope to catch up to, which of course ended any opportunity i had with finding someone to collaborate with, or even help me. so i was stuck learning 3 instruments and figuring out how to produce completely on my own. i did improve, but as time passed i became more and more aware of the flaws in my music with little hope of solving them. if anything, im even more stuck now than i was before. i want to get out there more than anything, but i know it will crush me. nothing is more upsetting to me than the idea that i would have to give up my favorite hobby due to being "too emotional" so it really helped when you showed me that any man would react the same way. i know being a strong independent woman is basically a joke now, but man does it take serious guts that i dont know if i have yet. maybe i'll come back to this comment in a couple years and tell a different story. maybe not. but the more people that see this video, the easier it will be for everyone. thank you.
hey im a female musician too and i really understand the feeling. i really hope you keep at it and continue to do what you love even though its hard. im rooting for you!
Its literally impossible for every male to. Its a dream for the vast majority of us. To get to the top of this game you have to excel in the art. For 99% of us its unachievable. That is the reality!
I went and subscribed to everyone you featured, I realized I do watch more videos by men and I need to expand what I watch. Great video, thank you for putting this together and staying as humble as you can.
Thank you for being an ally! I really enjoyed this video. I am a music producer and audio engineer who is also a woman. All of this is so real. Sometimes men need to hear it from another man because we are constantly told it's not true and we are making it all up. I wish one day women's voices could stand on their own but until then keep making videos like this please!
Thank you for such an insightful, thought-provoking and well done video! I'm a "bedroom producer" but have always struggled to be able to build up enough courage to put myself out there as ... myself. A lot of the points made here by the producers you spoke to are definitely worries I've hypothesized happening and I've actually lied about being a guy for my main alias just because, I guess, fear of the negative comments and interactions. I'm definitely no big deal in any kind of way in the music world, but I do wonder how interactions, collaborations and opportunities I've had would have differed if I had been honest about my identity. Strange thing to think about. But, rambling aside, I did really appreciate your hard work on this video and I am subscribing for sure!
yeah, it's a problem. I mostly don't get too much of it so far, but I'm sure it will get worse. just for the record, all of the music I made was actually made by the person reading this, I didn't do any of the work, the person reading this made my music. maybe I should be using a stage name...
@@farahwork2552 also when they start talking kind of badly about women and how they're so different from "us", and you're looking at their messages like *HMMMMMM* SHOULD I TELL HIM
Benn, I watched this in full about 3 days ago and thought you'd appreciate this little story. I know it's not a huge deal but I agree that these problems likely escalate from small moments like these. I'm a long time day trader and am heavily involved in trading communities. I'd say the girl:guy ratio is probably even more unbalanced than with music producers. An attractive girl requested to join one of the Facebook groups and it quickly became known in our moderator group chat by the guys posting screenshots which escalated into a 30 message long demeaning conversation. I'd never join in on this kind of talk but also wouldn't be the type to pull them up on it. My mind went back to a couple of parts in this doco which really stood out for me and I spoke up. And surprisingly, two of them immediately apologised and agreed it was out of line and that they wouldn't talk like that in the chat again. Thanks for pushing me in the right direction so that I can pass that on to others, and hopefully they will pass it on further again.
I know this is a 1 year old comment and i usually stop going through comments most the time, though it made me question something with your wording. Why would you say 'unattractive girl' instead of just female, girl or woman.
Wow, all I can say is well done. I put this on for something to listen to during my workout and it was riveting, thoughtful and brilliantly done from beginning to end. Great job Benn
"well what the fuck you know how to do it and you're stupid" YES SARAH THAT IS EVERYTHING! 😅 sooo much love to all the ladies sharing their stories and keeping' on the grind!! And much love to you Benn for putting this togethaaaa 💕✨
Really appreciate the thoughtful discourse on this, and hearing from a ton of female producers I really look up to in the process! Awesome video, definitely lots of good things to think about.
This video earned you a subscription my friend. As a father of 3 daughters who already love music at a young age and as someone who was in a band with a fantastic drummer who happened to be a girl ... We saw a lot of this, we saw the crap our drummer would get just for being a girl. Hopefully videos like this can show people what it's like. This ain't about snowflake shit or whatever, go ask your sister or your mother about their experiences. Great video dude, cheers!
If ya got ears you can make music imo. I'm sure people without them could too but y'know. There's so many women that have pioneered so much in electronic music but music of all kinds. Yet rarely do they get recognition. Like look at Suzanne Ciani. She literally helped Don Buchla design his synths. Yet she is rarely mentioned. She was also a huge pioneer in quadraphonic sound, as well as mixing organic sounds with synths and such. But whenever you talk about women in synth crowds you only hear about Wendy carlos who of course deserves the praise, and he'll with me talking about Ciani I'm sure some other female pioneer is being forgotten, and that's what I'm saying. They helped build this world as much as the men did and yet it's been made into such a toxic and hard to approach environment for them that it's unusual to see a female producer anymore. I'm happy things are changing. Especially with people like bad snacks and dresage and a whole mountain of other amazing female musicians and producers on YT inspiring so many young girls to get into the world too! The more people making music the more good music there is to listen to! If it makes someone happy and doesn't hurt anyone then it's good, maybe not to you but to someone. So get outta here with that "there will be more bad music too" mysterious misogynist I'm imagining will say something like that in response to that comment.
@@alexwestconsulting it’s simple. Wendy Carlos is a woman. The fact that she was born as a man doesn’t change that she is to be referred to as a woman.
All of the people telling you people to believe this ridiculous crap that has an iq above room temperature can immediate infer the inevitable demographic implosion that will happen if you convince the women to not get knocked up and get jobs instead. social security is already a nightmare, what do you think will happen in 20 years?
Same thing happened to women in comp sci/math. They used to be 33-40% of graduates in the field. And we were super sexist back then and still debating first wave feminism. Now we have all these programs to help their chances but they're ~10% of the field and dropping. Whatever is happening it must be bad.
When you started talking to women about their TH-cam comments I thought, oh I haven't really experienced that but I guess my channel doesn't have much traction. And then talking about the loss of professional relationships, it really hit home. I've been self producing my music since 2011. Stuck in a limbo of bedroom pop sound. I just need a guitarist to collaborate with. I've tried four times. One was awesome and worked on two songs with me but wouldn't meet me in person, because he had a girlfriend (???). One was truly excellent at guitar and we got along and collabed once, but after he told me an embarrassing story and I didn't console him, he realised I was not trying to date and blocked me. And two others brought up casual sex before it even got as far as the music. So I guess I relate. It sucks. I just want to make music. I can't play guitar but I love the sound of it. It should be simple. It's not.
Also, I would never offer "suggestions" to make female music "better". Why the crap would I do that? They are individuals, they have their own damn voice. If they ask, then sure, but then I get practical. If they ignore my advice, then great, that's on them. Same thing I do with guys, actually. Girls not posting their music is sad. I really don't care. Good music is good music. Get it out there. I'm willing to listen, no matter who makes it.
i loved this video for many reasons, but probably my favorite thing has been being introduced to so many new (to me) wonderfully talented female producers/musicians/etc. In the age of our it's-cool-to-be-nondiscriminatory, your channel consistently produces content that is not only interesting but is innately equitable because that's just who you are. Thank you Benn - you deserve the all success your hard work has brought you and then some.
Soo.... I've sat on this for a day now. And first I want to say thank you for this insightful video. I asked myself the same question a lot. And I would love to see a more equal share of women doing music. It was helpful to be reminded of the disparity in the comments for example (and I was shocked comparing some comment sections). And I also really feel for all the women who lost out on their contacts due to sexual advances being tied to offers. I'll certainly check my own behaviour again. I think I never did any of the 'heavier' stuff, but the homophily angle definitely struck a chord with me. No denying I am still sometimes surprised when women are genuinely good with nerd hobbies (to which I count music), just because it's so rare. I'll definitely try to keep that in check more and be even more supportive or rather nonchalant about it. That being said, I have one issue with your video. In the beginning you talk about biological reasons and show your poll about the beliefs if it's mostly biological reasons. Then you look at the scientific evidence for the musical *abilities* of women. Showing that if anything, women are biologically *more* probable to have "music making prerequisites". Which is interesting because I always assumed they were on par and I like that you educated me and others about that. Then comes the testosterone/ risk taking thing. I'm still cool with everything. Now here comes my problem: After that, you keep assuming that the 22% who voted for biological reasons must have done so because they think women are inferior or less capable. While there are probably a lot who think that, I believe that's not the only way biology can play a major role. If I had voted, I would have been also part of the 22%. But not because I think women are biologically less capable or are somehow destined to be worse at producing music (we have tons of obvious counter examples for that. Shoutout to bad snacks, I *love* your stuff!!!). I do believe however, that most women usually are biologically less *inclined* to put thousands of hours into activities that need a lot of *alone time* , sacrificing time they could use creating and grooming social networks. Boys and men are more likely to be okay with spending hundreds and thousands of hours *alone* in their bedroom to practice a skill than girls and women are. Mind you, this is not saying "women don't (like to) work as hard" It's saying "Most women prefer to do their hard work in groups". I also believe this view is very well scientifically backed (and that you would have seen that if you had examined that angle as thoroughly as you have the other, which I still appreciate). So I do believe theoretically there could be as many women in music as there are men, I do believe there *should* be, and I'm sad for all the good music we're missing out on because they aren't. But I also believe it is almost impossible unless the vast majority of the time spend on the road of honing those skills at the same time is congruent with most women's preference for prioritizing social bonds. Instead of sitting in your bedroom for hundreds and thousands of hours learning the guitar (synth, bass, DAW, or all of them), there would need to be spaces where people do the same, but it is a social experience at the same time. Obviously here also come the problems you addressed into play again. Those spaces would have to be mostly free from harassment and all the awful mansplaining and all the other problems you shone a light on.
This video is so true to life. I’ve pretty much experienced everything that you’ve mentioned in this video. I grew up in a household with two brothers and have great male cousins who never treated me “differently” so when I started producing music 17 years ago, I never once saw myself as “different” in the realm of music production. With that being said, it took me a while to realize that the “outside world” did view me differently and that this viewpoint was impacting my success in music production. So I got a job in Corporate America for 10 years as a stockbroker…ironically…another male dominated and ethnicity challenged field (a Black woman stock broker didn’t always sit well with some clients) lol!! 10 years later, I’m pursuing music fully and now being a bit wiser and discerning, I can see that things are still more difficult than they should be for women in music. In any case, thanks for raising awareness about this topic. Hopefully things will change for the better for women creatives sooner than later.
Thanks for this video Benn. It scares me how rare it is, even after two years, to find men in any industry just putting it straight like this. I will never fully understand what it is like to be a woman, but videos like this help finding ever deepening compassion and empathy for the women in my life, and ongoing drive to work and fight for change and hopefully eventually and end of this patriarchycal bs. It's also helpful to be humbled by being confronted with how much of a part of this I have been, and probably still am whenever I fall into normalized habituated behavior from the past. Thanks to you and everyone in and arround the video for making this message a bit louder in bringing it to more ears. ❤
Yeah. I'm often worried about like "natural prejudice" and recognize that it's irrational. But, the concept of homophily makes a lot of sense here. And it's also a promising implication that as we try harder to be more inclusive, it will also become easier.
If you're a electronic music DJ / producer (particularly techno or house) the novelty of being a woman (especially if attractive) is seems much more easily marketable and likely to result in a big following on social media. In the same way as if a girl posts a selfie or comment a thousands of guys will respond saying how amazing it is, but if I guy makes the same post it will be completely ignored. I feel like it works the same with music. Perhaps it's the novelty of it or the appeal of guys imagining how cool it would be to be with a woman that has the same passion as you do.
Thank you for making this. I feel a certain shame that you even had to make this video at all, that we still have so long to go for the masculine crap to finally run out of road. Not sure what the best way to be part of the solution is but you have given me hope that we can. Keep on doing what you are doing.
as a female screenprinter master i can say that it’s not only music-producing issue. ones i was told that women just can’t construct and make up things because “they play with different toys”. and that was my apprentice (male obviously) who told me that 😐 (i stopped teaching him from that moment). i don’t know what’s up with men. maybe it’s a low self esteem
Fantastic video. Being a trans woman, I can definitely compare how seriously people take me now to how seriously they took me before, and it's a lot less now, despite the indisputable fact (that doesn't care about your feelings) that I know a lot more than I used to and am generally more competent. Of course, transphobia is a thing, but I don't think that's it (although a lot of transphobia is built on the same basis of objectification that sexism is, so there is some overlap). Being a trans woman /and/ autistic (as a lot of trans people are) I definitely have Opinions about Simon Baron-Cohen's "extreme male brain" typology too. There's this weird hypocrisy that what is pathologised in me is also what is seen as "valuable" in men and "inauthentic" in women.
New subscriber, new fan. Suggestion for an episode (if not already tackled): the need for collective organization amongst musicians, either through joining a preexisting union like the AFM, or forming a new solidarity/consensus-based labour organization that is more geared to contemporary issues.
Thank you for making and posting this video, you really are a class act. I wish more men would put at least some effort into thinking about these issues and fight for a more bullshit free, equal and inclusive world. And yeah, most definitely sharing this.
Very important video, thanks very much! Been producing for about 7 years (when I first opened Ableton Live) and DJing for about 10 and I can relate to a lot of stuff the women in this video are talking about. It really shocked me that only 2 percent of producers are female. But hearing things like "You can be bolder in your style of clothing on stage" doesn't make it easier to enter the world of music production. And that's only one thing I heard, there is some more. I used to spend more time discussing and arguing with people about sexism in music industry. Meanwhile I have to say that I don't take part in these discussions that much anymore, I rather spend more time in the studio. So I have to thank people like these women in the video for speaking up for us, women in music production. You are awesome!
Dude. I just found you for this video and im so thankful. "What's shitty for everyone and what's shitty for women" is honestly a thought I've never had and im so disappointed about that. My whole life I've been so ignorant. Like I always viewed females as just not being interested in music even though any women I ever met was just the most talented I'd met. To know that it's a bigger picture thing and how I can help, bro. That's cool as hell.
Its my second time watching this video. Once when it first came out and I was just learning the ropes of music production and now a second time after navigating my way through a fair number of music spaces online and learning a lot more about the craft. On first watch I figured it was like everything else in society that has a systemic problem, but after the second watch and reflecting on what I've seen and heard in these music spaces. Ya there is a serious problem. I have met two female producers in these online spaces. Two. Out of hundreds I've met and probably thousands that are in them. Thats crazy. The last time I was speaking with one of them I was answering a question and the whole voice channel erupted in men yelling and shouting about how she did not know a tool, causing so much disruption that I couldnt answer the question and I had to leave the channel because of the over stimulation. I cant imagine a world in which that is a fun way to have a community respond to your simple questions. Unsurprisingly I havent seen her around since. I hope that more men watch this and figure out that they are discouraging half of the worlds talented musicians, artists, engineers, and tool makers from ever getting a start.
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I’ve been letting the comments cook before dropping in and it’s both encouraging and also ...brain numbing. Thanks for integrating some of our experiences into this study, & definitely looking forward to the day where these experiences aren’t questioned or ridiculed.
Hey Bad! big fan! I’m curious since Benn seems to think that in a “perfect world” 50% of producers would be women are you finding large amounts of women or girls that would be but because of sexism aren’t producing? Like to the point that if they were it would be 50%? Not that you know "every would be female producer" but from a back-of-the-envelope statistical analysis what would be your percentage guess?
I love your work! Bought some, even. Cheers!
@@LordLoveaDuck 50% of the people on the planet are women. there's zero reason to believe that there should be any gender disparity in any career beyond the way we treat people based on gender. the science behind claims like "men and women's brains are different" is hotly disputed, and even in careers dominated by women like for example nursing, much of this disparity can easily be explained by the way we treat men in those fields as "weak" or "gay", which again goes back to the sexist way we view femininity as a society and toxic masculinity.
So yes, in a perfect world, women would make up about 50% of EVERY field because they're 50% of the people and the biggest difference between genders is the way they are treated by society at large.
@@ZvoxSo the reason more women don't watch porn is because society thinks they shouldn't and not the overwhelming amount of free testosterone in males bodies? I've dated women that have never even watched porn yet I've never met a man who grew up repressed who didn't regularly (like >90% of men watch porn regularly.
And the reason why there have historically been less female serial killers is because of sexism?
2nd and 3rd wave feminism needs to be re-examined as actual science has called many of its non-proven platitudes into question. Some of the best scientists working in this area are women😉
Don't allways realize this is such an issue. Nevertheless, i really like ur music because of the music. Some of your your videos have been quite an inspiration for my own musical endeavors. Thanx and keep being awesome!
this video was kind of depressing as a female musician but here are some good things--
-it's becoming easier to self produce aka it's easier to make stuff with creative control and no condescending engineers / high cost of a real studio
-society will evolve more and more to continue to understand these issues + will improve (hopefully)
-female producers gaining visibility, providing role models to young girls
Yes! If the only reason you and others keep wading through the sexism and bullshit is to be a role model to my daughter (and all girls and women or anyone who identifies as such) then all the thanks in the world. Maybe by the time she is as into music as I am, she won't have to deal with any of the things that you have had to deal with. Everything discussed in this video just makes my heart hurt. Can't we all just be humans that resonate with good music and what we love doing?!
@@Windiguana Women also like complaining, attention and drama more than men (on average). If only they could just do whatever they liked and ignore the noise, how great would that be? By the way, why weren't there more female composers in the past? Why aren't there more female DAW programmers, or how about Label owners. When music production becomes as easy as DJing I'm pretty sure we'll see more women making music.
@@byoken the tone of your comment indicates you love drama and attention. you must be one of those dang FEMALES!! 🙄 lol
@@aracristina7435 this guy is literally up in the comments getting triggered & calls us dramatic
@@aracristina7435 I don't like drama, I like fighting. If you're that butch that you think I'm a female, let's fight.
Fuck, it's physically difficult watching Maddy Jay struggle to get through that story about the guy who ghosted her on that gig... you can see how much this sucks right on all the women's faces at that part in particular, and I fucking needed to see this. I know I've been guilty of this. I really hope this video in particular gets around and is shown to all of us. Been such a huge fan of yours since the flashbulb shows in Chicago I saw in the nineties and I have been delighted to see you find success on here and to be constantly delivering thoughtful content. Best music industry channel, hands down imho
As a female music producer, a friend sent me this video and LOL, sooooo good! For me, it really was about visibility. As I watched a music producer over the course of a couple of years (I was a voice teacher who would accompany students to the studio) I felt in my gut that I could TOTALLY do what he was doing. But it wasn't until I started noticing female producers (Linda Perry, Imogen Heap) actually DOING it that I thought, OMG, I could really do this! Battling my own limiting beliefs about how ridiculous it was for me to think I could, I was just so in love with the process of producing/recording/mixing that I just couldn't stop. It's been my full time gig for nearly 15 years now.
I think the sexual tension thing is not just about music folks. It seems like part of the bigger human situation we need to deal with. Thanks for calling it out.
An important video - thanks for making it
^
Thank you for really taking this seriously. It is really appreciated!
th-cam.com/video/1nfVFngLhnE/w-d-xo.html
@@dannymontreal6316 Neon Vines is the QUEEN. So underrated. And Bad Snacks, too!
@@felipedylan1591 Get out of here
I have never not gotten something out of your videos. Every one, without exception, taught me something. However, I did not expect to be heartbroken at some of the stories your guests shared.
I'm not naïve, I know sexism exists day to day, but because it's not something I have to deal with, it's not something I often think about. I honestly didn't know it was so rampant in this industry. I thought - I foolishly thought, that musicians, artists, basically, those of us with a creative mind, would be above such bullshit. The reality mortifies me.
Benn, thank you for making this video. I especially want to thank all of your guests for sharing their experiences, for baring their souls, for their bravery, and for calling us out.
People never fail to surprise me with their ignorance. I'm only 29, but it didn't take me that long to understand that individuals can be understanding, but a mob trends toward stupidity.
@@ItsJustAdrean You're not surprised at people's ignorance, and you've learned that individuals can be understanding, whereas mobs "trend toward stupidity."
All valid points. Perhaps you meant to respond to another comment, because none of your observations seem to apply to mine.
@CharlieRiceMusic Oh I did mean to reply to you! I just struggle with being direct. Ignorance re: sexism and bs in the realm of creative pursuits
Honestly Benn, this is heartwrenching to me.
This is heartwrenching because when you told YOUR side of the story, I realized exactly how fucked it all is. Because I didn't realize that it wasn't normal to get "Advice" on everything that comes into frame in a video. I didn't realize exactly how many of my negative comments I wouldn't have gotten if I was a dude. Hearing you and Adam talk about how few specific condescending negative comments you get, being ten or even two hundred times bigger than my channel. Anywhere from 20-50% of the comments I get on my videos are people telling me I did something wrong, mocking me, or commenting on my appearance, often all three. Most of them, speaking as if I'm not in the room. Like I'm not going to see their comment and they're just talking to the other boys in the locker room. It's dehumanizing and demoralizing. I didn't know how different you had it.
The statistics don't shock me. From my experience the numbers you showed are probably under-reported, because when women go through this, they feel forced not to make a big deal about it. Maybe they don't even get how big a deal it really is for men to try to hang business help over their heads in return for sex. I honestly can't even count the number of business connections and even work friends, that I've lost because they decided that they want to use their connections or their "influence" to try to get in my pants. I'd put money on most of the women who said "no", changing their minds if you sit down with them and ask them about their experiences. "No! Well, there was this one time that... But it was just a misunderstanding right? Isn't that so funny?" and then you just slowly watch their forced smile fade away when they realize that what they told themselves wasn't a big deal actually hits them. I've been on both sides of that story more times than I care to remember. Someone tries to coerce you and when they realize the answer is no, they laugh. Make you promise not to tell anyone because it was just a misunderstanding. Isn't it so funny? Or they threaten you. Tell you that they'll make sure no one picks up your call ever again if you tell. This is just my life and it's the only way I've ever known it.
Thank you for making this video, not just for sharing our experiences, but for sharing yours. It put my experiences into stark contrast to know exactly how different it is for you.
I just read through your comments and "20-50% of the comments I get on my videos are people telling me I did something wrong, mocking me, or commenting on my appearance" is simply not true.
@@alexwestconsulting it's called comment moderation buddy! But thanks for proving the point and trying to baselessly "correct"and humiliate random women on the internet!
@@AliceTyrell You think it's sexism for calling someone out over unfounded claims of sexism? Get a grip. Your comment moderation consists of you removing 50% of your comments? Maybe you have a problem. There isn't even one remotely patronizing comment left. Nothing whatsoever as you described. Not even close. Not one. So if this is due to comment moderation, you've demonstrated that you are incapable of accepting anything that remotely resembles critique. You micromanage your comments to the point of leaving only glowing reviews, deleting everything else? What kind of egomaniac are you? And, unless you are willing to accept that this kind of material is dominated by men (I mean only in terms of sheer numbers and so the "sexism" is a direct reflection of audience interest/demographics (or lack thereof)), then half your audience is female, so women are leaving you nasty comments then? What, women don't watch you because "sexism"? Ludicrous. When Benn made his anti-Behringer post a month back there were many forums calling him out, some accusing him outright of some serious shit, and you've got literally nothing even remotely disparaging in your comments. No, you are bullshitting hard. And no, you are not some "random woman on the internet", you are someone who made a demonstrably unfounded claim of abuse that does nothing but diminish claims from people who actually face abuse.
@@alexwestconsulting there's so much blatantly false and provably wrong information in this comment, combined with so many logical fallacies, that is not even worth my time to tell you why you're wrong, but the fact that you're claiming to have gone through every video on my channel and looked at every comment, and talk about sexual comments about my body like it's helpful critique, really should be enough to convince anyone who doesn't have their head so far up their own ass they're like a shitty ouroboros.
Lol thats how leftists propaganda works. You didnt realize before but now your eyes are open, because some liberal white male told you so
I am a senior in college and i am preparing a PowerPoint for my Capstone and it is of course on female producers. I major in Music Production and Technology and i always questioned this " why are there less female producers? this is extraordinary and super helpful thank you for your studies.
Thank you. I am a female musician but have not really shared enough of my work publicly to receive much feedback yet. That said, I’m realising just how much of these attitudes I have insidiously internalised. I had put the bulk of my music-related issues down to a very general “confidence issue” and lack of education. This video has shon light on things I’ve witnessed constantly and even though I haven’t dealt with them directly as often as others, it has absolutely impacted my confidence and how I show up, i.e. not showing up at all out of fear of intense scrutiny and being treated as an imposter. I’ve internalised this to the point where nothing has felt good enough to share, and this has gone on for many years. As depressing as this video was, it has given me fuel to put myself out there and be an example. Very inspired and grateful for the women in this video. Thank you again.
I think what you are going through is also very common amongst male producers. I know a lot of men who think the same of their own work: not worthy of sharing. Luckily, today you can put out your work anonymously! Maybe that can be a good way to ease in? :)
@@aysegulozguler7712 doesn't matter if you put it out anonymously. It's still your work. People can still comment on YOUR work. That has the same impact whether or not you are anonymous.
@@antonyfranco2866 I don't think it necessarily has the same impact. Well for some it can and for others not so much, it depends on the person I guess. Anyway, i still believe anonymous sharing can be an easier first step of "coming out". Also then, people don't have to know if you are male or female, don't have to know your ethnicity etc. so you are at least protected from the bias/prejudice.. whatever you wanna call it.
All the bias, prejudices etc. suck and i wish we lived in a fairer world too but hey on the bright side we live in a great time. Music production tools are more affordable than ever. Almost anyone can make some sort of music at home and put it out there and at has a chance to reach out to a huge audience without them having to know all the details about the maker of the music. I am not saying it is easy but it is easier than say 30 years ago.
@@aysegulozguler7712 That's a fair point. You're absolutely right, being anonymous can protect you from any bias or prejudice and I suppose if you're someone who may be more likely to be subjected to that, then absolutely that helps. It is unfair that a lot of women would have to do that when starting out, when they shouldn't have to.
I guess it does come down to the individual though. For someone who is afraid of sharing their work because they feel it's not worthy enough, even posting anonymously can still be difficult. Whether you're male or female. For me personally, I take great pride in my work and I see a lot of it as a part of my self in some way. That creates a bit of fear when it comes to others perception of my music.
So I guess what I'm mostly commenting on, and who I'm speaking to, is the people who feel like their work isn't good enough to put out there. Anonymity will help reduce bias and prejudice, and it would make it easier for certain people to start out, but it wont always help whatever you think, or your concerns about what others think. I guess the solution in that case is to just be brave about it and share it anyways, and just get over your own thoughts, and not care about what others think. Which is easier said than done I suppose--especially if someone is the type to see their music as a part of themselves.
Glad watching this inspired you
As a dude, this vid will make me check my shit permantently...I was completely ignorant, serious kudos on how you presented it and respect to the artists/+ that helped give the insight I needed to see what was right in front of me. Totally blown away, holy crap...this was necessary, you did the right thing by making this.
@@ghfjfghjasdfasdf Someone call an ambulance for this poor dude-bro-male-technology-man.
There were a few things I disagreed with in the vid but I'm with you, specifically the negging stuff, sometimes its unintentional but I'll definitely keep an eye out going forward.
I don't know - I've been hearing this forever. We even have an organization in our area specifically to promote women in the music business. What I do know is that in almost any community, you can find hundreds of female musician wanted ads that languish with no response and a massive number of men competing for a few slots. Even mediocre female musicians can work pretty consistently. For whatever reason - and you can't legitimately blame it all on men - women are not going into certain industries at the same level men do. And it's not like haven't been great examples for them to look to. I've played with male and female musicians in many genres and welcome anyone who's open to playing the music and learn. One of the best engineers I know is a woman. But outside of the cassical world (choirs, bands, orchestras and piano), there just doesn't seem to be the same interest.
It's similar in reverse for choirs. Choirs struggle to find men - but we don't attribute it to gatekeeping, but self sellection. It doesn't carry the interest for them.
I remember having my mind opened by Björk. I myself was just starting out, but even then it felt unusual to see a woman with that kind of creative power... Humbling to look back and realize how ridiculous my initial reaction was. Seems especially strange now because my own sister Danke is one of the most impressive raw creative and technical music makers I know of. At this point all I can do is enjoy being surprised by the good shit people are making no matter who they happen to be.
yes! and Kate Bush
Check out Diamanda Galás, she's a phenomenal composer.
LIGHTS has been one of my favourite artists for a while, and the way she does so much, and does electronic and acoustic music is so cool, and even a few years ago with her multi-media project making a comic series and an album that go together, doing all the art, music, and some unique uses of social media. It was really cool seeing her live once. She can play multiple instruments and sing, which is more normal for acoustic and more singer-songwriter type stuff, but for a woman in electronic music to do so much herself is nice to see.
pinkpantheress for me
Now that's interesting because when I listen to Bjork it opens my stomach and I vomit.
Making a sound something like her name, and her music, Bjjjjeeeeeerk
I approve of this video. As a software engineer with 10 years in games, and 7 years in film VFX, I can say this isn't just a problem in music production, it's a problem in many industries, full stop.
Acknowledging there's a problem is the first step. As a man, knowing how to fix it is not obvious. I've had to call out far too many work colleagues in my time, but calling them out on an individual basis just feels like I'm rearranging deck chairs on the titanic. I wish I'd be able to do more.
Yeah bro full stop bro no cap litty my fam
this is so true rob , appreciate your observations as a female because it is VERY frustrating . Thank you rob
Coding is notorious for being packed with misogynists. This is in large part why my daughter dropped it as a second major in college. Sad, but I can't blame her. She showed me a little sample of one of the computer science learning/sharing forums she had joined. The sexist (and homophobic) comments that randomly got thrown around were disgusting. And she didn't even identify herself as female.
Innit. We have a few female developers on our team and you can feel the biases tugging at you even though you know it's nonsense. And over-compensating is also no good.
It's sad that you disagree with the biases, and yet they're still in there somewhere.
When I was a kid, it makes no sense thinking about it now, but I didn't even know it was an option for me, because I had never seen someone like me doing it. Thank you for making this! It's very difficult having others understand how trash it feels to deal with ulterior motive sexual energy constantly. It's not flattering, it just makes it feel like you can't trust the connections you've made with people, because you've learned the hard way a lot of people have background intentions. Being an island makes it a very daunting lonelier journey.
Thank you for this. If I may I'd like to share an experience I had a few years ago which summed it all up for me. I was at a new artists' showcase event. Quick soundchecks beforehand, the usual routine. Two guys at the sound desk. A young woman comes in with her guitar, goes to the stage, asks "Where do I plug this in?" One of the sound guys snorts with laughter and says "Er - in the DI box??" really sarcastically. "OK, where is that?" she asks. Both the sound guys start laughing with eachother: "Oh my god she doesn't even know what a DI box looks like!" The musician is clearly ruffled but gets through her soundcheck. The next artist comes in for their soundcheck; it's a young guy, with a guitar. He asks exactly the same question: "Where do I plug this in?" Sound guy says: "Oh, sure man, yeah it's just over here, let me show you."
My favorite: "wtf? you know how to do it, and you're stupid"
Me too : D That is one incredibly arrogant thing to say, even for a another human that you hope to help you (for free)!
@@motkoloko I thought it was a genuine (and hilarious!) internal reaction to someone acting as a gate keeper. (shrug)
@@pgmjsd Exactly. The attitude of "you wouldn't get it" is so often based on bad assumptions about someone's capabilities. That's what was being discussed and articulated in that part of the video (very well, I thought).
@@pgmjsd Oh sorry my bad I got it wrong! I just sounded bad 8)
That was pretty cool.
"I was like 'what the fuck, you know how to do it, and you're stupid"
Felt that lmaooo
I can 100% relate to that, specially the stupid part 😅
I used to play drums in a band in my 20's. My set up for the drums didn't involve a kick drum. I would see guys watch me play and immediately judge my playing because I didn't use a kick drum. Also, everyone always thought I was a girlfriend with my band mate. We were a 2 person band. Interestly enough after 3 years of playing in this band, my band mate confessed that he was in love with me. When I said I didn't feel the same way, he told me he couldn't continue to play music or even be friends.
Overtime, he apologized, we have remained friends and even played in other bands together. I must say it has been a challenge the whole way in constantly needing to hold my own as a musician. I don't share this story to claim victimhood or the need to get something that I don't deserve. I appreciate you bringing this subject to light.
I dont think thats a good friend :/. Deeply think about him
I’ve had similar experiences. I had no idea guys didn’t get kicked out of groups for stuff like that.
Maybe they judged your playing because you didn't use a kick drum...
@@RichardChappell1 That's exactly what I was saying. There are plenty of people who play drums and percussion in many ways!
Sorry you had to experience that bro, however kick drums ROCK
As a woman who is playing around with music and really enjoying it. I cannot express how awesome it is that I've found your channel. I am also stoked to see someone as talented as yourself to working with FL Studio. But this video is unlike any other I've found. Thank you for taking your time to make this.
Thank you immensely for putting so much time into making this video! I've been lucky to have only had one feather-ruffling incident thus far in my professional music composition and production career. A label I was courting told me point blank that they thought I was at my best with a male producer behind me, which I did only when being hired as a session vocalist (and to boot this was after I had won two awards for video game scores I had written, recorded, produced, and engineered myself). So yes...we still need to keep this conversation going. Thank you again 💜
In her treatise 'A Vindication Of The Rights Of Woman' (1792) Mary Wollstonecraft noted that the fundamental divisions of society expressed in social relations and through politics, religion, morality, family life etc, was rooted in the idea that rationality and reason was naturally identified with men whereas feeling, emotion, sentiment was identified with women.
Wollstonecraft thought it was absurd to say that women couldn't reason in exactly the same way it would be to say that men did not or could not feel--although many thinkers argued exactly that at the time (and still do today, "Men are order; women are chaos" as Jordan Peterson says)--but one of her most striking points was that due to these conceptions men were obliged to dress their feelings and passions as though they were reasonable whereas women were compelled to dress up their reason as if it was just feeling. That is, men would exercise power through the means that was made available to them, and as such claimed reason and rationality as their domain while pretending that what was just desire, passion, lust, emotion or uncontrolled feeling was in fact a manifestation of their reasonable power. And at the same time women were limited to express their reasoned and reasonable search for power, for control, for autonomy and authority over their own being in the language of emotion and sentiment.
Wollstonecraft thought that this, as both a description of relations between men and women and of the organisation of human society, was a mutually corrupting catastrophe, not just because it de-legitimatised women's reason but, chiefly, because it legitimised men's passions and lusts as being reasonable and rational. In her view it was by these means--by men's appeals to being rational and reasoned creatures--which allowed men to authorise their self-declared position as the natural deciders of things; the deciders of what women should be and do, and indeed as being the natural deciders of what society should be and do. (And what is music production if not a decision making process?)
She was spot on imo, and her ideas still resonate today, and all this was brought to mind by your tidy and tight arguments against there being significant or deterministic factors which make women or men superior or inferior when it comes to the musical domain. Perhaps this conception of the rational vs the emotional also explains why women producers on TH-cam often talk about the hows-and-why of their music making whereas men tend to talk about the gear! 😁 We each reach for the language both we and society expects of us.
Great vid btw. 👍
Thanks for that super informative comment! She is so on point. That makes so much sense to me. It really resonates.
Good comment - although that last paragraph confuses me - why would the hows-and-whys be more emotional rather than technical? It just sounds like a hardware v. software thing - and also not something that is _expected_ of anyone so much as something they just... _do._
Hey@@BroudbrunMusicMerge Good question. Because talking about how and why we did something is to talk about us and our subjective selves (how we feel about a thing), which can be exposing. To talk about gear is to talk about something separate from ourselves, something which is out there in the world, something empirical, factual, which is personally less exposing.
But remember, Wollstonecraft says that social conditions force women to dress their reason in the language of emotion and men to dress their passion in the language of reason.
Also, I popped a smiley on that bit, because things are just not that clear cut either, are they? 😁
This is true, you see this a lot with incels who try to frame their personal preferences (which are totally based on feeling, like what hip shape they like or whatever?) as biological needs that they're entitled to (which, as a biology student, is so ridiculous and annoying to hear). Meawhile they try to frame women's rational needs, like having an education and a career to sustain themselves, as a choice that they make based on impulsive feelings that they never bothered thinking through.
Yeah well you can take that bunch of commie propaganda and shove it.
Men and women have different brains, massively, men have larger brains with much greater density of neurons and interconnections.
It's biology not anything to do with society.
This video resonates with me, as an amateur musician & producer who recently started dating someone who is better at my primary instrument than I am, this enforces my resolve to not let some fear of emasculation lead me to subconsciously behave in ways that do not support her growth. Artistic success is not a zero sum game, and no single aspect of one's personality is so precious that it is ever justifiable to sabotage someone else in order to hang onto some inner illusion of superiority.
Oh my god thank you for doing this. It’s so depressing that sometimes dudes won’t listen until another dudely dude says it. After being asked more than once if my (non-musical) husband writes my songs... LORD BLESS
I've encountered that too. Not so much now on my main community, Newgrounds, but I find women have to show more than tell with their music? Do you post your music here to TH-cam?
I know my experience is probably so different from most women, but I figured I'd share it anyway since it seems there isn't enough positivity around this.
I'm a female composer and producer who works in the video game industry who's had an amazing experience so far. Yes, I am surrounded by male coworkers and peers, but they have all been so fantastic. I've had countless male mentors who have genuinely believed in me, I have fantastic male friends in the industry who call me up once a month just to catch up and talk about nerdy music stuff. I've always felt supported, respected, treated as an equal, and I've felt that I've been given the same amount of opportunities as my male peers. In fact, I often worry more that all the buzz around this topic will result in opportunities that I *don't* deserve, or *haven't* earned. For example, I don't want to be chosen as a winner of an award because it's been 15 years since a woman has won it... I want to win it because I earned it. I don't want to be offered a position at my dream job because it will be good for the optics of the company... I want to be offered the job because I am the best person for the position.
But of course, this is just my experience. (And I've had a much worse experience in my comment section on my TH-cam channel -- my comments above are fully about my male peers and colleagues). Maybe I just want to play devil's advocate here, but there are so many men in this industry who are incredible mentors, friends, and colleagues towards their female peers. We never hear about them. I suppose my only advice is, ladies in audio/music, find those people (women or men) who genuinely believe in you and your abilities, and keep those people close. And of course, don't put up with the shit. There are good pockets in the industry. Maybe it's harder for us to find them, but they're there.
That's so great to hear! I have found that the game audio (and gamedev community in general) is a bit of an outlier in that field and even though it's still heavily male dominated, it seems to be more inclusive and the sexism you see in the more mainstream music production field is luckily not as common as it is in game audio.
@@GuidoGautsch I did start my career out interning in LA learning under Hollywood composers and teams. The film industry is a liiiittle more… harsh. But I met a ton of fantastic peers and mentors there as well.
Game dev DOES have bad pockets, (cough, the whole Blizzard thing) - so does any industry like this. Maybe I’ve just been fortunate. But yes, my overarching experience has been super super positive.
@@RachelHardy oh, no doubt! There are a lot of horror stories out there, unfortunately. There was also gamerg*te and that shone a light into some very dark corners of the community. I still have hope that this attitude changes though. I've had a bit of a read through the comments on this video and apart from a few bitter yet very vocal misogynists, the overwhelming majority seem to respond really well to this video. That said, I've been following bad snacks' channel for years and some of the comments on her videos are just..well, let's just say I'm glad she's still out there kicking ass and making awesome music and videos, despite the cesspit that is the TH-cam comment section...it only takes a few assholes to completely spoil a party.
No offense, but this is just survivor's bias.
Your experience was good, and that's great, but I don't see why that should mean we shouldn't push for as many people as possible having an experience similar to yours.
Most statistics that can be found overwhelmingly demonstrate there's a huge sexism issue in male dominated fields.
@@radiofloyd2359 I 100% understand that these issues exist and I do understand that I am very lucky. My whole point in this is that I hope we don’t just clump all men into the same category when there are many who are strong advocates for women. I’m a little worried about overgeneralization.
As a female musician this is quite something. I'm gonna have to let it sink in, it's a lot. Thank you so much for shining a light on it. In the beginning you said that you feel weird doing this as a man. I, as a woman, am grateful that you do. As discussed in the video, men take other men more seriously (often) and you used your platform to give women an amplifier on their voice. Thank you so much!
The moment Maddy said "what if I had just gone to the studio" absolutely fucking broke my heart. This was absolutely fascinating and unfortunately eye-opening, thank you so much for putting this out.
Yeah, she would have been raped. And she never got the gig from the start. That was just the carrot in the stick and the carrot.
I'm SO glad she didn't go to that late night studio invitation. ALWAYS pay attention to those doubtful feelings. Why late at night in a Friday anyway? If the worst happens, the trauma would harm her music. It's smart to listen to inner warnings!
imagining having to even slightly worry about something like that happening left this gut wrenching feeling in me
Yeah, I can confirm, that's basically daily life for a woman working in a male-dominated field. In addition to all the usual tasks of getting work done, we also have to think an awful lot about whether doing the job is likely to result in having to file police reports. And whether law enforcement would even be worthwhile, or if they'd make things worse. So we often have to make hard decisions between potential opportunities vs potentially ending up in a hospital. And when we decide to take those risks, we have to make plans for how to minimize the damage if something goes wrong... like, for example, making sure a friend knows exactly where we are, and having them get help if we don't check in every half hour.
But for guys, it's usually just "go to the studio and get some work done", and no further thought is needed.
Foreal!! I could hear the tension… that slow single cello note in my head and have now been sittin hear in silence since the video ended… and gotta admit now I feel super shitty for having maybe the tiniest crush on one of these producers when I first saw them produce… (I won’t name names but I will admit that now that even feels cringy) I’m sorry you can’t have a normal collab session lk you would expect… and Mandy, I’m glad you have a strong enough intuition to not get caught up lk that… this shit never dawned on me and that’s pretty ignorant on my part but It always blows my mind what ruins a good thing cuz it’s never greater than the thing it ruins… I am only available for long distance collabs now because bedroom producer just took a new light…
That drives me mad hearing that Sarah has never been paid more than $200 a night for a show. She's honestly a significantly better player than myself and I make more than that a night and have for years. Touring is taxing enough physically and mentally, even more so when you're underpaid and undervalued. As a dude, it's hard enough to actually "receive payment" from some artists, and my guess is it would probably be worse as a female musician.
Side note: The first artist I toured with was a black female who had a TH-cam following before she was signed to a record deal. She echoed the same sentiment of "they don't really believe I'm playing, so I have to prove I'm actually playing my instrument." She actually played her instrument, while I have played for many male lead singers who mimed instruments without shame. Also, we sat in a weird place of, she is black, most of her band was white, her music was much more pop, acoustic-y, and some white demographics looked down on her for being black, and some black communities deemed her "too white" or as a sellout. Also, the lengths we had to go to fight stalkers... 😬
so sad.
I fear this
That's fucked up, I had no idea what those numbers meant since I never been payed to play live and I live in Brazil anyway, so it would be way less regardless, but it seems they really pay her less just for being a women, which is extremelly fucked up
Pay for performance is a function of negotiation. Become a better self-promoter and salesperson and you simultaneously become a more successful musician.
No one is "owed" anything. That is the truth.
@@TeddyLeppard yes I totally agree , males and females have been programmed very differently so females are often less likely to negotiate because they feel they are asking for too much or that they will be laughed out the room . I have often negotiated a higher wage / price for what ever I am selling and encourage others to when it is obvious they are under valuing their selves or service / talent/ craft .
when you produce something high quality and there is a market for it , if you charge a high price , you are confidently assuring others of your worth and that you are the best in that field and who does not want the best ?
Benn, this is fantastic. Thank you for presenting this with all the research and interviews to shed light on a topic seemingly more comfortable to ignore than address.
Great video, as a black woman I could relate to what a lot of these ladies said and we need more conversations like this.
Would you say it applies also by race, or is it getting better? I'm curious, because I know for some men, the racism is shown by what genre they're expected to do. What does it do for you to have it but as a woman? I'm curious!
na u dont.
Did you ever stop to think that maybe it's that you are more interested in "conversations like this" than just making music that's holding you back?
As a female technical director in the visual effects industry, I'm picking up what you're putting down.
He really hit me when he said women are biologically predisposed to be better at music and language acquisition. I guess that explains how I became a music producer and a linguist 😂
Benn you would be a lot hotter if you wore more makeup and held your guitar differently.
Dude, just me, or is he not even playing that?
@@IconicPhotonic it's not only you, he doesn't even talk himself!
@@mr_confuse he does have a video on generative music that touches on AI and deep learning, iirc. He's totally deep faking his voice and his face, now, in all his videos :O
this is funny! and my instinct is to make the same joke! but I want to comment before it goes too far, parodying the problem to make a point quickly turns into just being the problem inverted. not instantly, but seek equality in freedom, not equality oppression, and all that.
that said I'm pretty sure Ben faked this video using toothpaste and a broken guitar string
@@laurenpinschannels that's a completely valid and fair thing to point out. thank you for doing so!
I've been producing music for so long, it's such an important part of my life, but when I finally joined a tour with my spouse (also female) in 2013, we did a huge SXSW circuit and learned very very quickly the amount of negative energy on the LGBT community in some circles of electronic music is absolutely shocking. We had some fun and put on some great shows, but every year comes and goes and we just can't imagine having the energy to do it again. Maybe more conversations like this will change that.
"the amount of negative energy on the LGBT community in some circles of electronic music is absolutely shocking" genuinely curious, could you please describe this in more detail? This just doesn't seem to add up for me, most people in creative communities (in music especially) tend to be some of the most enlightened folks Ive ever encountered. Most of the LGBT people ive ever come to know and love were present and thrived in this space. I would love to understand your experiences more ✌❤
@@beenmicrophone5817 As a fan, I agree. I felt warm and welcome in particular scenes which were in many ways built upon the work of the lgbt community. When I began to bleed over into a more mainstream trap / club scene, however, as a producer rather than just a fan, my experience shifted considerably. I met some amazing fans and had some wonderful experiences, but my spouse and I do not owe our success that tour to the managers, promoters, or fellow team members, but to our determination to independently network and have a good time at any cost. I'm not saying everyone, ymmv etc.
@@KattKirsch wow. you know what, I can completely see that picture you've painted. I'm usually on the side these days of being against the 'wokeness' so I really do cherish/appreciate getting actual insight from those who go through these things!
I'm really sorry u went through that BS. That is truly horrible.
I Think ben has done an absolutely wonderful job with this video, I just wish the rest of the world was as good at articulating these issues as he has done here.
LGBT commute has their own negative energy in many forms.. as a professional underground DJ I have seen it first hand.. if they don't want the negativity perhaps they should first respect themselves and others.. watching this group abuse drugs and the youth is hard to deny..
See, this is what my straight edge spouse and I deal with when we walk into a room. Lots of fun.
I love that you drew attention to homophily and the tendencies of systems / niches / fields to provide an environment most welcoming to those who are already in it - thus entrenching disparities. It shows how easily - even without ill-intentions - disparities can take hold. Disparity doesn't necessarily need or imply active oppression. But this doesn't just mean that disparity needs no active oppressor - it also means that we all have to be vigilant not to let environments/groups we are part of become exclusive by making them only welcoming to people just like ourselves - and that we can benefit from "de-homogenization" by creating more open, welcoming spaces.
So this is basically a subset of the toxic in-group/out-group mentality that permeates society?
@@BroudbrunMusicMerge Hmm... I think the interesting part is that it's a bit more insidious than just explicit in-group/out-group thinking - in that "in-group/out-group mentality" refers to negative judgements (implicit or explicit) about the out-group from the in-group, whereas for homophily you don't need any negative judgements/behavior toward others.
With homophily, people and institutions themselves can be completely free of negative attitudes/dispositions, but spaces/environments they have shaped will naturally be shaped to best fit (the mean of) the people who have populated and shaped them.
This alone - without any negative thought, judgement or action - without any toxicity - can have the effect of alienating others from even wanting to enter that space if these others find the environment somehow off-putting/too foreign - they cannot imagine identifying with it.
Looking at it from the other side - a space/environment already shaped by a certain group will also have a stronger pull-effect on members of the group than on non-members.
What this means in the end is that overcoming the obstacle of homophily and achieving more diversification is a thing that requires something from all of us.
Both a conscious effort to keep the spaces/environments we create and shape open and to communicate this (of course there is no such requirement for private spaces/environments - but there is e.g. for places of work) - and the courage to enter spaces which maybe until now have been shaped by people not from a certain group you are a member of.
Personally, I don't think a truly equal society would ever have complete gender-parity for all jobs, hobbies/interests and areas of engagement in general, because it would be a true miracle if there were *no* differences in the distributions of *levels of interest* [not "ability"] over various areas of engagement between genders.
That may well have not just social, but also biological causal factors mediated via the shaping of interests during developmental periods where there are sex-differences in neuro-cognitive development which in the median disappear later, but leave differently tailed distributions.
But what we certainly can and must do is to make explicit effort to remove barriers - we can make and keep the spaces we create open to join (and co-shape) for everyone.
Awareness of homophily means to be aware that when diversification happens in a space one is part of, it's important to pay attention to whether that space provides obstacles to integration, and to address them where they arise. It also means to be aware that that this can happen even without any negative judgement/disposition... so we need to be extra careful.
Overall - drawing attention to the huge part homophily plays in barriers to diversification is also good for framing the problem to increase collective effort to combat inequality - because it means that a good deal of our problem is not "perpetrators against victims", but people together against problems for diversification and equality which (sadly) emerge naturally via homophily (... and also against those who explicitly stand in the way of equality, but they're not necessarily the majority of the general problem).
@@DumblyDorr This is an awesome, well-written comment.
Yes!!! All of this. I would also add that another reason why we don’t produce or stop producing is we don’t get credit. We will do the work, record, mix, write the music, play.... and not get credit when the album comes out. And will get a “sorry, it was a mistake” for best case scenario. And that is after getting less or no pay.
Thank you for posting this. I love your videos.
Know many women in publishing who’ve had the same problem. Where they’d write all the insert comments, filler between sections in magazines, most of the content for cover discs (if there was one)… but their editor would get the credit because he wrote the letter on the front page.
I know this video is a year old now, but it really put a lot into perspective for me and I guess I just want to share some thoughts I had. This is going to get rather vulnerable, so I apologize in advance.
I am a trans woman. I am a musician, recording engineer, and film maker.
I started this journey of music and film making when I was young, and well before I had any intention of ever coming out as trans. Because of this, I know my experience is very different from a cis woman’s, and it’s frightening to think about how different my career in music and film could be had I simply been born in the “right” body. I’ll admit, I made a lot of my connections before I came out and started transitioning. I was very fortunate that most people I asked for help were very willing to break things down for me. Undoubtedly during this time before I came out I got to experience male privilege.
However, the interesting part of this all is that despite this, in the time before I came out I feel like I did experience some of the types of treatment that those you interviewed have shared. I’ve always gotten unsolicited advice and inappropriate remarks on my appearance. Even then I thought this was strange as none of my male friends who made music ran into these issues. I might have just looked “visibly queer” or something to cause people to say those things.
After coming out and transitioning I will say that I’ve been extremely fortunate that everyone around me has been very supportive and kind. But I did notice that after I started transitioning I feel like I did have to prove myself more to be taken seriously as a musician and film maker, and the out of pocket comments on my appearance have increased relative to before transitioning.
But really the big thing that this made me think about is my place in all of this. I’ve never belonged on the men’s side of things, and even though I strongly relate to the women’s side of things, I’ll still never feel like I actually belong on that side. I’m always just stuck in the middle. I never feel like people actually see me as a “real woman” even though when I’m on set, all the other female crew members include me into their “tribe” so to speak. They’ll treat me as one of their own. But I still feel like I’m an outsider, and that I’m not qualified to speak on their behalf. This puts me in a difficult position when discussions like this come up, as I know my experience is different than my cis friends.
With this, I’ve been fortunate to work with some amazing people in these industries that just so happened to be female, but at the same time I’ve always been the only trans person in the room. Even outside of this, I’m the only trans person I see on a regular basis.
Another element to this is that of biology that you bring up in the video. I hate to say it, but the whole idea of sexed brains and studies that try and understand the differences of peoples brains is something very dear to me. When I started questioning my gender identity I repressed the hell out of it and tried my best to make this feeling that “I was in the wrong body” go away. After years and years of that, I couldn’t keep it in anymore and eventually started turning to science to just try to understand myself more so that I could learn to accept who I really am. I read several studies comparing the brains of trans people to their cis counterparts and took every bit of it that I could understand in. According to these studies, trans peoples brains are more similar to the gender that they identify with than the sex that they were assigned at birth. This was a revelation for me, and it perfectly summed up exactly how I felt about myself, but now I had the science to show that I’m not broken, I’m mentally insane, I just got a girl brain stuck in a guy body.
Obviously people can use the sexed brain phenomenon for sexist elitism, and you demonstrated that well in the video, but I never construed it that way. Just because something is different doesn’t make it better or worse, it just makes it different.
Apologies for rambling and writing an essay of a comment, but I hope I added something of value to this discourse.
You're not alone, sister. I transitioned, I make some tunes, and I feel like an imposter in female spaces sometimes... spaces that I seek to constantly improve (with my votes, with my voice) and fit into. I am a master mechanic in my day job as well, so I get parallels to this topic in all walks of my life. Life is fuzzy for us. That can be good, that makes our experience unique, though difficult. I remember reading the biological studies during the process of transition and gleaming a shred of comfort from them as well. Perhaps that is unique to our situation.
I don't think about those studies often anymore.
Since transition I have experienced many of the things touched upon in this video by these women. I have also been "othered" in very interesting ways by lots of folks regardless of gender, because of my nature. I have been living authentically for 12+ years. Things have changed and I've become stronger. I guess that's what happens. We seek a better situation, we fight for it, we get stronger. That's probably the best thing that we, as women, can do in music as well. I mean, I feel like I could be good at it after all this time phasing through spaces.
i aint readin allat 💀
I’m an intersex trans woman and had a very similar mix of experiences as you laid out here.
I didn’t experience instrument gatekeeping, but I got tons of unsolicited advice about posture and fashion and my hair and how I should smile more or move to the beat more etc etc. Indeed on TH-cam videos in 2009 I had guys my age tell me I was miming the guitar, some of whom turned out to be fakers themselves. And turning down technical discussions even when I’m eager to have them, that happened a lot too. “Oh you don’t need to know how it works, just what it does.”
People often “mistook” me for a girl anyway though, and I know I got lucky vis a vis transitioning thanks to my weird chromosomes.
FEmale producer here ! 😂😂😂 "Unsolicited advice" had me rolling. My channel's comment section is bursting. When you tell them you don't need it it's "oh so defensive" and never " I should start my own channel and stfu" !
Wow, great video. Well researched and great guests. Hopefully this stuff is slowly changing. Some of the most amazing people I have worked with on the music scene in Ireland have been women, and as someone whose daughter is at the start of her music career, I would hope that she’ll be judged as a musician rather than as some kind of secondary category of “girl musician.”
Anyway, well done. Great video, I hope it changes a few perspectives for even a few people!
I've thought this for sometime. When I was growing up and saw Star Wars I totally identified with Luke. Girls have a lot of practice identifying with male characters and their stories and being the subject of the story is so more predominant than their actual numbers. Young boys haven't been asked all along to find their identity in the stories of girls and women. And seeing how much pushback against movies like Captain Marvel or Rey from Star Wars tells you what a problem this really is. They can't exist in girls shoes the same way girls can exist in male identities and stories. Growing up almost all coming of age stories or movies for children had a male protagonist this seems to be changing and it's nice.
Great video thanks for trying to tackle this.
That's very true, I've seen people who pushed back against trans representation with the same mindset because they couldn't identify with someone whose story or identity was different from them. As a uterus owner I have many role models who don't have a uterus and I fail to see how that's a problem for people to identify with those who don't physically or even mentally resemble them.
It's sadly very rare for men to be inspired by women the way women are inspired by men. I don't know, for some reason looking up to a woman and relating to her is not seen as cool when you're a man? But fortunately lots of men, and perhaps more and more of them, are being vocal about the women they find inspiring.
i disagree with your assessment of pushback on female characters. specifically captain marvel and rey... the pushback had more to do with the new star wars movies being poorly written and captain marvel actress just generally being kind of an unlikeable jerk. nobody has any issues with wonderwoman or the tomb raider movie reboot or the games... because the actresses are likeable and they made sense. except for the new wonderwoman 84 was not good, but again not because shes a woman.
nobody cared resident evil had a female star in the movies or games. i could give you a pretty expansive list of beloved female leads.
there will always be some prejudicial people moaning about something but that doesnt mean everyone thinks that way.
@@squirts1 since you aren’t a woman how would you know? Men are over represented in all media and novels as the main character relative to your actual numbers in the population. So your examples don’t prove a corollary.
@@Iofflight78 I didn't say Men aren't represented more and didn't say I proved any corrolary nor was that my goal or intention... However, since you mentioned it, I'm actually saying that your assertion doesn't "prove a corollary."
@@squirts1 I know you didn't say that specifically, but it goes to my larger point, which is that, not more than a small amount of studies show, women are able to connect with both male and female characters in literature and cinema to a greater extent than males because of sheer practice and the history of what is canon.
Just doing this type of content, despite being aware of the femenist cause, is still a learning and vicarious experience for me. I assumed wrong a lot of times because I based everything on my experiences. Is true that men tend to listen more to other men than to women about this stuff, and despite being wrong, I see that also is a way for men to take responsability of the passive complicity of the denial of our prejudice. Sometimes even if you are not involved, you can be a firestarter. And you, have to say, have made think deeply into this.
This is the type of content I feel I want, and the type of content that makes me want to grab my keys and stop slacking.
Thanks to you and all the people who gave time for this video.
This shines a light on a number of blind spots I wasn’t aware that I had. Of course, these topics aren’t news to anyone, but hearing the reality of others from the perspective of an experience I associate so closely with-that of being a musician-really helped wake me up to just how limited my perspective really is. I have a lot of work to do from here to reconcile with the things that I have missed, and most likely things I have said and done, that should inform my choices moving forward. Thanks to the people who contributed to this.
This is such a wonderful comment and it's exactly the point of videos like this. This is something we're all guilty of. I'm talking about thinking our perspective is the default and not considering other perspectives.
What shocks and saddens me is the amount of clear psychological impact and suffering I perceive when everyone interviewed recounted their stories. The learned helplessness, the gas lighting, the emotional manipulation, the negging. Maddy Jay near the end as she told us her experience with the “the gig falling through” really saddens me, not only the act but the fact that she doesn’t even know if it was that or just “life of a musician”.
This has personally clarified the sheer stupidity of men and how fucking insecure we are about loosing “exclusivity” to parts of life that separate and divide classes. The ability to work, drive, school, and even something as sacred as ART?! Are you fucking kidding me dude…..disgusted by it.
Sure. Because psychological pain doesn't exist in men. That's why men suicide rate is so low. BS.
Life of an indie musician, for me! I feel like since I don't shake my rear, people subconsciously write me off until they hear my stuff themselves.
Very compelling. I feel like while this video was focused on music production, a lot of the points raised could readily be applied to my home field of software development, which similarly has a massive gender disparity.
you should seek out the documentary losing lena its one of the best i've seen on the topic. www.losinglena.com/
@@spirah5803 Will do. Thanks for letting me know about it!
This is so interesting to me, the software disparity, because I know it exists, but I have only ever worked at a company where woman are right about at 50% software engineers, myself included, and i have *never* experienced the "silicon bro". It's such a supportive environment all around. But you know what? I've been at this company for eight years because i know that culture exists at almost any of the other companies i could pick, and the thought of leaving my wonderful team, but relatively unstimulating work and less than market rate salary, to possibly have to experience that, fills me with anxiety. I know i could make more money, and work with people who are even smarter than those i work with now, and i could learn so many more things, but... What if I end up in one of those ugly situations i read about? Let's not even talk about the imposter syndrome.
I hope you work to make, or keep, your software shop welcoming and a place where people can make mistakes and learn without judgement.
I know about this going for a few jobs in the tech field, gender and racial disparity is rampant. It really saddens me on the statistics I've seen on how many women get sexually abused during their lifetime. I hope one day our society as a whole can see how wrong it is and just get it instead of having so many closeted incidents
I was thinking the exact same thing in regards to software dev/consultancy. Something I used to believe was that we didn't need to raise up women/POC specifically (like through grants etc) since I thought everyone should be equal... but the reality is, the playing ground is so uneven that often the dream, let alone taking all the steps to get up to the professional level (whether that's software dev/music), is squashed long before they'd reach the stage to apply for any grant. They're told it isn't for you, if not directly, then in a more insidious way.
It's pretty sad imagining all that lost potential out there, people doing things they didn't really want to, all because of something discouraging they were told during that "formative" period. Then, of course, all the bullshit they have to put up with indefinitely after "making it".
Benn, you're a treasure. Don't ever stop making quality content. This reminded me: I'm gonna Patreon you right away.
Thanks Benn for raising this important subject. I work in radio where a large proportion of producers and sound engineers are women and it's always pretty shocking when I attend professional-body conferences and trade-shows to see how far from the case this is in the wider audio industry. It's not just about how to attract diverse talent, it's about how to retain it too. If the culture is toxic people will just walk away. Keep on doing what you do.
Sounds like the result of biased hiring policies to me, probably to keep the bank happy with their ESG score, nothing to do with women actually being competent.
Thank you for the great video covering this important topic.
My 8 old daughter started playing the piano.
She fell totally in love with synthesizers and I am incredibly glad to offer her access and knowledge, how to operate the machines.
Today (right after I watched this video) she said, she also would like to record her music.
Cool, there is a Cirklon waiting for her amongst other gear.
I hope I can support her motivation so she can learn and develop in peace and her pace, before these negative encounters can cause any damage.
What she does of it, is up to her.
Hi Benn, This was the 3rd video of yours that I watched. I just found you here about 50 minutes ago. The video that first caught my attention was about how animals hear us. I've actually wondered if they heard us the same way as we hear us. The 2nd video was about sound pressure (dB's). In my past I have performed as a musician, was a Stage/ Instrument Tech, mainly Guitar Tech, and in my mid 30's began doing Stand Up Comedy. Basically my whole life, sound, has been a big part of, So I really found that video interesting.
So, 3 video's of yours that I've watched and greatly enjoyed = New Subscriber.
I'm looking forward to going through your catalogue of video's because I can tell you definitely have a lot of interesting videos that I will enjoy watching.
Thank You
I’m new here to.
As a man, I found this disheartening - not just because I'm now a father of a 4 year old girl (who already asked for a guitar, and will probably have to put up with this bullshit herself, sadly), but because I'm guilty of some of said bullshit myself. Great, sobering, necessary vid.
You made the first step by adressing the past.
If this is a mini confession - what have you been guilty of exactly and why do you think you did or said what you did or said?
@@ReformedWhiteKnight
@@honeysucklecat I am neither triggered nor a snowflake. I am not even hiding! ;-) You have a vibrant fantasy, or is it just cool to point your sweaty little finger at people and say stuff like that on the public shaming square for some 'thumbs up' because you can't live without the validation of some random strangers? ;-)
@@ReformedWhiteKnight that’s between me and my daughter when she starts asking questions.
Dear Benn,
Thank you for this study and this video! This is what we women need, on the job, in our day-to-day lives, in our social lives,.. Male allies!
I Will share this with all my fellow musicians and friends!
Thank you!!!!!
BEING HONEST ANONYMOUSLY OVER THE INTERNET:
As a male producer, this video really opened my eyes and helped me realize that I have been guilty of both offering unsolicited advice and over sexualizing my female cohorts in the music industry. It makes me genuinely sad to think that my actions may have been enough to stop another person from developing their passions and/or pursuing a career in music and I want to offer a genuine apology to those whom I have affected and sincere empathy to myself and any male producers who identify with this. I am not perfect. I have definitely made mistakes in the past yet I am committed to making amends and doing right by my fellow musicians going forward.
Thank you Benn for sharing this video!
Thank you for this comment. Even though I haven't worked with you this validated my feelings and gave me hope.
@@Lilredjeanie - the problem is that he 'admits' to something and a lot of ladies who will read this and other comments here will believe that is the normality and that somehow they might have missed out on opportunities because of (imagined) sexism when many other things might have played a role in why things might have not worked out. This doesn't help anyone - it actually quite poisonous for the relationship between the sexes rather than doing anything good at all. All that seemingly benevolent talk about equality always seems to end in the most disastrous ways. There is not a single exception in history that there was a positive outcome.
Anyway, the truth is: first of all, the commenter stays anonymous so we don't know whether the comment is real or whether it is someone or even a bot appeasing the narrative (yes, there is plenty of evidence that AI bots contribute comments). I myself work in the music industry and have neither seen another man behaving like this nor have I been in a situation were I would have treated a women with a lesser or even negative attitude as a human than I would treat any men. Maybe different yes, a bit more polite and forthcoming etc, as most men tend to do when they are dealing with women. The one thing I will make a concession though and where I knowingly made a difference between men and women was when it was about working in a recording studio. I would not advise young women to waste their lives in dark recording studios as an assistant or even an engineer. Working in that job requires a lot of things that I personally wouldn't want my wife too suffer under: very long hours, with often very difficult personalities. Musicians, producers and engineers can be impatient and overly demanding because of stress and then there is alcohol, drugs, very late nights, boring technical duties most women dislike. I haven't met a women yet who was looking forward to soldier in a new patch-bay enthusiastically.... Also in the 90's there were still bets made on how long it will take to run the new assistant into the ground or until he had a nervous breakdown. That was the kind of 'christening' new engineers would have to go through to show that they are capable of taking on the extreme stress situations a engineer in a recording studio could face... would I want any women do endure that kind 'break or make' endurance test? Certainly not! ;-)
@@ReformedWhiteKnight Why do your comments all gotta be towards women specifically? Why not be making these recommendations to anybody?
This is what Benn was talking about when he was discussing gatekeeping. If you're here because you were interested in the message being conveyed, you should rewatch that part and reread your comment. Otherwise, your comment stands as proof of concept.
P.S. I didn't reply just to engage in a flamewar or anything exhausting like that. I just felt it was extra important to point out what I did given the video it was commented on.
@@disassembleverything I might comment and give advice (if appropriate) specific to the situation the, age, the sex, the country or whatever else might be necessary to be precise. Generalisations work but not in every case and to be honest if I would generalise there would be someone pointing out that I shouldn't generalise! ;-)
This video was mind blowing, and at the same time not. As an older woman who played many gigs in my youth...this video was all too familiar. Not just in the music part of life, but every day things. I was constantly handed the sword instead of the handshake. It ruined relationships, and eventually I left music behind for almost a decade. I didn't realize that the real reason, until this video. These women now are stronger than I was, and the inspiration I feel now-even tho it may be too late for me- is powerful. Thank you for taking on this very controversial, and deep dark journey. I know it wasn't easy, and maybe a bit emotional for you....as it was for me to watch.
I'm just starting my journey to become a professional, and as I'm learning I was also startled by the fact that there are so few noticable female producers out here. I had to specifically search to find them, because if I type in anything music related, there will be a dude explaining things. I wondered why that is, and this video is such a good preparation for what I am about to face that it already gave me the validation that I need to survive those moments. Thank you!
you've outdone yourself! thanks for all the work and research you've put in and for sparking awareness and good discourse
Great video and thanks for the books/reading lists.
I'd also like to delve into the gender issues of techs/roadies and session musicians.
Worst case scenario: Overweight, middle aged, proto-incel tech who threatens to kill you because you didn't manage his cables correctly.
I've also never met a woman who rudely told me that I was micing a piano incorrectly. Even when I was following the pianist/engineer's notes to the letter...
Great job on the video! And thank you for introducing new producers I did not know. And thank you for all the women interviewed for great insights and for sharing their experience!
25:49 I'm not even a musician but this is so relatable in general. Whenever you're a woman (or someone people percieve as a woman) and you want to learn anything about a male dominated activity, there is this pressure. You don't want to ask for help to someone who knows more because it would show that you don't know everything yet, and it would lead to men not taking you seriously if there's any little detail that you don't know about. If a guy wants to get in a "guy hobby", there is no such pressure. If he doesn't know everything he's still legitimate. However if it's a woman learning it, people will always nitpick and doubt and assume she doesn't know what she's doing at all. That makes it so difficult to ask for help. The amount of judgement you could face is just demoralising.
"If a guy wants to get in a "guy hobby", there is no such pressure"
"If he doesn't know everything he's still legitimate."
That's not how this works at all Julie, from reading your comment it seems you have a self-confidence problem or at the very least a bad instructor.
If you want to talk about it in personal experience terms, I've been learning from both kind of teachers, some who clearly should not be teaching anything because they lack the patience to do so, and other few amazing ones, that would go out of their way to make sure I learned what I had to, people who were clearly passionate not only about their profession, but about passing it forward as well. My guess is that the stress built up is what makes that difference between them happen.
Sadly, there is not much to do when you find the "grumpy" kind of teacher other than imposing yourself more, specially if you are the one paying them to teach you. It might be scary at first, but if you don't demand the very least amount of respect, people will AWAYS walk over you, no matter who you are.
@@Srevengel see here's the thing: I say there's a difference between these two cases because *there is* and I know that because I have both "girl" hobbies and "guy" hobbies and I can fully feel the difference.
Whoever I learn from, of course there are going to be teachers who make you feel like crap for asking questions, but that's not what I'm talking about at all.
I'm talking about the fact that when you do a hobby of the "correct gender", when you want to ask a question, you just ask it, no problem. If you get a bad reaction, at least you know they would have reacted the same to anyone else asking that question. It's easy to know that your identity is not the problem. When you do a "wrong gender hobby", if you ask the question, there is ALWAYS the risk that someone, maybe even someone more experienced that you who could give you opportunities to go further in your passion, will think "she doesn't know because she's a woman". THAT is what I'm talking about. And when someone thinks that, you lose any opportunity to be treated decently by them, like a human with a brain, like a person deserving of help. You will be belittled. And it's not just teachers, it's your peers too. The teachers may be nice and sweet and answer all your questions, but to your peers you are now "Dumb Blonde™". And that's irredeemable because if "you don't know because you're a woman", then you will stay a woman, so these people think you'll never get better and they will always see you and treat you as dumber than others *because you're a woman.* That's what we want to avoid when we don't ask men questions.
The fact that you think this is a me problem, even though there's no ill intent behind it, goes to show that you haven's seen or experienced how women are treated in male dominated fields. There is a reason so many people relate to this feeling: it's because it actually happens.
Now of course it's going to plummet your confidence to have this pressure on you all the time and create a vicious cycle where you ask less and less questions by fear of being seen as Dumb Blonde™. But the origin of this cycle is in the fact that there are people who will see you as Dumb Blonde™ for asking questions.
@@juliee593 "I'm talking about the fact that when you do a hobby of the "correct gender", when you want to ask a question, you just ask it, no problem...." - That's not a fact, that's you talking from *experience* . I'm sorry if sound doubtful (because I am), but, when I see people describe situations like you did, where they are the victim of certain bias, there are usually a lot of implications they make such as you did, describing your teachers *and* peers as part of this cult that solely acts against you and your passions, and diminish your whole existence as being a "silly woman". These implications make your discourse seem way less believable, it's "the whole world against Julie", doesn't add up.
"goes to show that you haven's seen or experienced how women are treated in male dominated fields." - You could have asked before assuming that but, I went to programming classes where most of the students were guys, and the women there were treated as goddesses, if they needed anything there were always a group of guys falling over their feet to provide them with whatever piece of knowledge they wanted. Furthermore, there were always stories from friends of mine that went to school describing situations where the teachers would actually treat female students better and give them more attention when explaining something than when explaining it to male students. And that goes for the female teachers as well when explaining to guys.
If you want to know, I think we are both just ugly xD. It's something backed-up by science even, and I truly believe it, the fact that beautiful people are treated differently and that they are more likely to be empathized.
I still keep my advice up, If someone is supposed to educate you them make them do it, you can't be the one to comply with shit like this because "there is an opportunity" to be made of it. It's like selling your soul to the devil, you sacrifice your morals and freedom for something you think you need more than your"self".
Be The Dumb Blonde and trademark it, when the results of your curiosity and affords start to show up, you will be the one standing proud of them. And let me tell you, nothing speaks louder to successful people than results.
Julie E 100% this
Definitely not a self-confidence problem. I know I can do pretty much anything I set my mind to, and I genuinely don't care what people think of me. When guys do the stereotypical hater thing, it feels about the same as hearing a dog bark through a fence. But that doesn't stop me getting treated like a small child simply because I'm a woman. If anything, when I'm participating in male-dominated fields like programming and systems architecture, confidence and skill tend to make things worse. Like, when I'm visibly better at something than everyone around me, that often makes me a target, because some guys are so offended by the idea of a woman being better, they make it their personal mission to take her down. So I routinely have to spend less time working and more time pampering the egos of the guys in my vicinity so they'll get out of my way and let me get stuff done. In today's society, a woman has to work twice as hard for half as much respect.
What a great watch, this was probably one of your better and also highly needed videos. I have been aware of these issues as a man who has heard things like this from women I worked with plenty of times, but never did I realize how bad it really is. I think part of that also has to do with how it must be really difficult for women in this field to even speak up about these issues, fearing the backlash they might receive because of it. It's a sad reality... This trickles down much deeper into our modern society and is for sure not just a problem in the music industry itself, this kind of behavior is rampant in many aspects of our daily lives.
I talked about these issues within this industry in the past, only to get flooded with comments from men who defend the current system and label you a "white knight" the moment you say something about women's rights, just because somebody is a man, does not mean he is unable to listen to his female colleagues and explain their issues to fellow men. I had a discussion in one of my own communities about posts that sexualize women and that I don't want that in my server, only to then receive backlash from the men who write those posts. This just goes to show how much of a problem this still is, when men feel offended when other men tell them about issues women are having, you know there is still a lot of work to do to pull these rights into a level playing field.
In the end I see it like this: _I would rather be labeled a "white knight" and defend women who feel their voice isn't heard, than being a men who is incapable of listening to their female counterparts and belittling the problems that they raise._
Wow.. I genuinely didnt think men like you existed. I hope you meant all of it. It’s appreciated
Thanks so much for taking this on and taking it so seriously. It's relentless. It's rarely enough for me to do what I do; I routinely have to prove that I did what I did. And then when I try to explain that reality, I'm not believed. It's exhausting and demoralizing. Thank you.
I have a 7 year old daughter, and I would love nothing more for her to follow in her daddy’s steps and become a self-producing musician. I have my work cut out for me in making sure she has everything she needs for whatever she chooses to do, including helping her to believe in herself like the musicians in this video, even when it may be hard to do. I’ll have to rewatch this from time to time to remind me what she might be up against. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, thank you.
If she starts a TH-cam channel, just let her know from the jump that there is always going to be a massive horde of dummies running amok on here. Having a pretty thick-skinned attitude helps a lot from the outset.
@@bb-sw6ur That's a pretty good highlighting of the problem we have. Daughters need to be taught to defend themselves in a way that sons don't. Not because sons are better at defending themselves, but because they do not risk an attack as much. Verbal or physical. I also think that thick skin is not as important as a sharp tounge.
@@draugormr8957 I think whether you are a man or a woman you still need to be prepared for people who abuse online anonymity to denigrate what youve created. Of course the problem is more severe for women. I agree about a sharp tongue.
I feel that my being able to pursue engineering/production has everything to do with having female mentors every step of the way, the present included. Hope your child can have that, too.
Draugormr - ‘boys don’t risk an attack that much, verbal or physical.’ I am not sure a debate is even possible with someone who is so far gone in ideological thinking... I got to make a screen shot of that that ‘comment’. This is where indoctrination and propaganda leads to.... people are unable to even acknowledge reality. They see something very different....
So glad you made this video, Benn. Not many would "touch" this subject. My admiration for you was just elevated :)
Hey, I just stumbled on your channel today and came across this video. I've been starting with music production as a hobby.
I'm a software engineer and a woman. It's really, really nice to come across such deep, caring advocacy. We have a lot of the same problems in tech. (There's a great article from the Smithsonian that talks about how programming used to be "women's work", but as the job grew in demand and status, there started to be myths that it was too difficult and complicated for women).
Thanks for making this. It really makes a difference in feeling welcome.
I've noticed a similar pattern in several different fields. Women are expected to cook and sew in the home, and teach children in school, yet nearly all of the most famous chefs, fashion designers, and professors are men. It seems like men have an easier time finding professional success in a patriarchal society... Time to change that!
I sent a friend to the music store, with a very specific list of cables I needed, including length, type, and specific connection I needed. In passing, my friend mentioned that “she” needed the cables… and the associate felt the need to call me to be sure I “actually needed speaker cables”. The repeated automatic assumption just wears on you.
is it possible the associate just wanted to be sure you got the exact cables you wanted given that you had a list with specifications? maybe your friend didnt sound confident in the request? ive experienced the same thing as a man...
I run a music shop and this is a common occurrence. People send in their friends, family , significant other, etc to pick things up. Just this morning, a violinist sent his wife in for some bow rosin. He called ahead to let me know exactly what he needed - which was 100% necessary because when she got to the shop I said "Oh, you must be here for the rosin.". She just shrugged and said "Hahah I dunno. I guess?".
Regarding speaker cables: I've checked with customers many, many, many times to make sure that they actually needed a 1/4" instrument cable and not a 1/4" speaker cable (or vice versa). They look literally identical. I can't tell you how many times it turned out that the customer did indeed have the wrong cable. ..and the reason I double checked with them is because I could sense that they were confused, new to music, or a bit out of their element. (Most of them were men BTW.) I've also had to get on the phone many times with customers who were picking up items for musicians. They almost always seem very lost and confused - because they aren't musicians. They don't speak our language. A wife will come in, pull out a list, and ask for some Martin light gauge acoustic guitar strings. Pretty specific request, right? ..but when I ask if they want phosphor bronze or 80/20 bronze, the phone comes out and I'm talking to their husband.
You know why I've done this? It's called customer service. It's my job and I care enough to make sure the customer is getting what they need. Their race, age, gender, etc have _nothing_ to do with it. I've been around music shops my entire life and I've never known an owner or even an employee who looked down on women customers. I've never even heard any "She's really good for a girl" type commentary.
I've worked with countless female musicians onstage and in the studio - and even the shop I work at now is owned by two sisters - yet I'm still waiting to meet one of these evil misogynist male musicians who are gatekeeping all the women from excelling in the industry. They're a rarity now, not the norm. It's not 1955 anymore.
90-95% chance he was just trying to help his customer.
5-10% chance he was some Neanderthal who thinks chicks are too dumb to buy speaker cables.
@@clicheguevara5282 Can't it be both?
@@marygard4608 sure, could be... But the assumption being made is that it's always sexism. That shouldn't be the assumption. If you look for something you'll find it (whether it's true or not).
@@squirts1 You're right. Never assume anything. But I think males, having been raised in no less a sexist atmosphere than females, can develop a mindset to automatically approach women and girls "differently".
After all, I thought as a girl that all men scream and all boys will hit. Same kind of indoctrination.
See also: facebook gear groups with dudes going "Don't tell my wife that I bought another synth! she would never understand my hobby!"
I never understood that! If someone has a hobby as niche or expensive as synths, how do they get as far as marriage without their spouse having some exposure or understanding of their passion? I love sharing my hobbies with people, especially people I like and want to be with in a relationship. I can't imagine hiding that to the point that my wife would be resentful of my hobby. It's also pretty spineless to hide what you're spending money on if you're in a committed relationship. All of the married couples I know share finances. If their bank account suddenly had $200 (or whatever) spent, I'd be at the *very least* curious what is cool enough to warrant that much money.
@@8thlvlMage You put into words why I was always so irritated about these kinds of comments! Also a lot of them refer to their wives as “the wife”, like she’s some kind of despot or political instance. I know it’s meant to be a joke, but it just seems a bit unhealthy...
oh yeah you will find this same shitty misogynistic comment under every youtube video about synths I've found out (after watching a lot of those)
Yes that comment is annoying, and I get that it does come across a bit sexist but there is definitely truth that a lot of partners don't understand or approve of their spouses spending $1000s of dollars on hobbies. It's the same thing with women talking about how their husbands not having any taste because they judge their wives for buying $4k Birkin bags.
I think that these jokes are annoying but fairly harmless on both sides.
@@8thlvlMage I think it's a lot more likely that dudes just make jokes about their wives not liking something they do because that is just bread and butter in men's social experience. Im not saying I approve of it, it actually seems pretty pathetic to me. I'm just saying a lot of men probably do it because they want to fit in with other men and not because their wife actually is incapable of understanding their hobbies or passions.
Wow the comments are lit and the video hasn't even aired. This is gonna be a good one. Thanks Benn 🙌
As a music educator, this is all awesome to hear. It's hilarious to me how often I hear "Well should my daughter be learning acoustic guitar since her hands are small?" No, buy your daughter what she wants! That's all there is to getting kids excited about music. Just let it be THEIR thing and get your parent ego out of it. Music is such an intensely personal thing that to try and imprint your own musical world view on your kids is always going to end poorly. I strive (and im sure often fail) at trying to remove as much of my musical taste from what I expose my students too. And for the love of God, never tell a kid that something they like sucks or isn't real music.
One of the crappy things about that small hands thing is that there would be more of a market for alternatively sized guitars, and thus more selection, for everybody who doesn't have giant meat paws were it not for that attitude. It's like a negative feedback loop. Never mind the whole lefty thing.
Won't somebody please think of Benn's upside down guitars?!?
Don't force kids to start playing an instrument in the first place. Odds are once they get old they never want to play again because their parents forced them when they where young...
@@SyntheticFuture Facts. My parents tried to get me to play piano when I was young and I was so dumb that I thought pianos were only for guys who wanted to wear powdered wigs for a living or something. I didn't know about rock and metal keyboardists or any of that cool shit.
@@SyntheticFuture I disagree a little with this. I think there is a difference between giving the kid guitar lessons and then just seeing if they ever practice on their own, or giving a kid lessons and then yelling at them to practice every day. I think there is no harm in giving the kid a weekly lesson that is very low stress and low expectations. I actually ask my students if they practiced each week and then assure them it’s ok for them to tell me they didn’t. I want them to get in the habit of thinking it’s a low stakes activity that they can pick up at their leisure
@@rainbowkrampus completely agree. It goes both ways too, I remember Steve vai talking in an interview about how he designed his signature Ibanez in the 80’s for someone with big hands, because his hands were just too big for a fender string spacing.
ive been trying to get into music production for years now and it still feels kind of impossible to me. the higher expectations people have on women combined with my own intense self criticism and just general lack of experience seems to result in me regularly going months without finding the motivation to open a DAW. despite only being 15 when i started every man i know seemed to already have years of experience that i could never hope to catch up to, which of course ended any opportunity i had with finding someone to collaborate with, or even help me. so i was stuck learning 3 instruments and figuring out how to produce completely on my own. i did improve, but as time passed i became more and more aware of the flaws in my music with little hope of solving them. if anything, im even more stuck now than i was before. i want to get out there more than anything, but i know it will crush me. nothing is more upsetting to me than the idea that i would have to give up my favorite hobby due to being "too emotional" so it really helped when you showed me that any man would react the same way. i know being a strong independent woman is basically a joke now, but man does it take serious guts that i dont know if i have yet. maybe i'll come back to this comment in a couple years and tell a different story. maybe not. but the more people that see this video, the easier it will be for everyone. thank you.
emotions make such good music! you can do it!!
hey im a female musician too and i really understand the feeling. i really hope you keep at it and continue to do what you love even though its hard. im rooting for you!
Its literally impossible for every male to. Its a dream for the vast majority of us. To get to the top of this game you have to excel in the art. For 99% of us its unachievable. That is the reality!
I can relate. Same story for me
I went and subscribed to everyone you featured, I realized I do watch more videos by men and I need to expand what I watch. Great video, thank you for putting this together and staying as humble as you can.
Thank you for being an ally! I really enjoyed this video. I am a music producer and audio engineer who is also a woman. All of this is so real. Sometimes men need to hear it from another man because we are constantly told it's not true and we are making it all up. I wish one day women's voices could stand on their own but until then keep making videos like this please!
Thank you for such an insightful, thought-provoking and well done video! I'm a "bedroom producer" but have always struggled to be able to build up enough courage to put myself out there as ... myself. A lot of the points made here by the producers you spoke to are definitely worries I've hypothesized happening and I've actually lied about being a guy for my main alias just because, I guess, fear of the negative comments and interactions. I'm definitely no big deal in any kind of way in the music world, but I do wonder how interactions, collaborations and opportunities I've had would have differed if I had been honest about my identity. Strange thing to think about.
But, rambling aside, I did really appreciate your hard work on this video and I am subscribing for sure!
yeah, it's a problem. I mostly don't get too much of it so far, but I'm sure it will get worse. just for the record, all of the music I made was actually made by the person reading this, I didn't do any of the work, the person reading this made my music.
maybe I should be using a stage name...
Im sure you did great.
Same, I also pose as a guy on the internet sometimes and the difference in treatment is STAGGERING
@@juliee593 I reccommend every women to front as a man in the internet at least once. Its truly hilarious how differently your treated
@@farahwork2552 also when they start talking kind of badly about women and how they're so different from "us", and you're looking at their messages like *HMMMMMM* SHOULD I TELL HIM
Benn, I watched this in full about 3 days ago and thought you'd appreciate this little story. I know it's not a huge deal but I agree that these problems likely escalate from small moments like these.
I'm a long time day trader and am heavily involved in trading communities. I'd say the girl:guy ratio is probably even more unbalanced than with music producers. An attractive girl requested to join one of the Facebook groups and it quickly became known in our moderator group chat by the guys posting screenshots which escalated into a 30 message long demeaning conversation. I'd never join in on this kind of talk but also wouldn't be the type to pull them up on it. My mind went back to a couple of parts in this doco which really stood out for me and I spoke up. And surprisingly, two of them immediately apologised and agreed it was out of line and that they wouldn't talk like that in the chat again. Thanks for pushing me in the right direction so that I can pass that on to others, and hopefully they will pass it on further again.
I know this is a 1 year old comment and i usually stop going through comments most the time, though it made me question something with your wording. Why would you say 'unattractive girl' instead of just female, girl or woman.
Absolutely brilliant. Thanks for making this.
Wow, all I can say is well done. I put this on for something to listen to during my workout and it was riveting, thoughtful and brilliantly done from beginning to end. Great job Benn
"well what the fuck you know how to do it and you're stupid" YES SARAH THAT IS EVERYTHING! 😅 sooo much love to all the ladies sharing their stories and keeping' on the grind!! And much love to you Benn for putting this togethaaaa 💕✨
Hahaha that one made me laugh. :D
Yea, with an attitude like that, I can not imagine why someone would not jump at the chance to give the person trying to insult them free lessons lol
Lol that part was hilarious 😂
that comment made me laugh so hard
It was possibly one of the most unnecessary comments in the whole video, misandry isn’t funny
Benn - respect. This was crucial. (Also, thanks for introducing me to some crazy freakin’ talented musicians I was not, to my shame, familiar with)
Really appreciate the thoughtful discourse on this, and hearing from a ton of female producers I really look up to in the process! Awesome video, definitely lots of good things to think about.
I feel Rezz is changing the game when it comes to women in music production! She's an absolute legend!
This video earned you a subscription my friend. As a father of 3 daughters who already love music at a young age and as someone who was in a band with a fantastic drummer who happened to be a girl ... We saw a lot of this, we saw the crap our drummer would get just for being a girl. Hopefully videos like this can show people what it's like. This ain't about snowflake shit or whatever, go ask your sister or your mother about their experiences.
Great video dude, cheers!
If ya got ears you can make music imo. I'm sure people without them could too but y'know.
There's so many women that have pioneered so much in electronic music but music of all kinds. Yet rarely do they get recognition.
Like look at Suzanne Ciani. She literally helped Don Buchla design his synths. Yet she is rarely mentioned. She was also a huge pioneer in quadraphonic sound, as well as mixing organic sounds with synths and such. But whenever you talk about women in synth crowds you only hear about Wendy carlos who of course deserves the praise, and he'll with me talking about Ciani I'm sure some other female pioneer is being forgotten, and that's what I'm saying. They helped build this world as much as the men did and yet it's been made into such a toxic and hard to approach environment for them that it's unusual to see a female producer anymore.
I'm happy things are changing. Especially with people like bad snacks and dresage and a whole mountain of other amazing female musicians and producers on YT inspiring so many young girls to get into the world too!
The more people making music the more good music there is to listen to! If it makes someone happy and doesn't hurt anyone then it's good, maybe not to you but to someone. So get outta here with that "there will be more bad music too" mysterious misogynist I'm imagining will say something like that in response to that comment.
don't even need ears tbh
@@antoineguilbeault8025 beethoven
@@jacobbarrettmusi exactly
@@alexwestconsulting it’s simple. Wendy Carlos is a woman. The fact that she was born as a man doesn’t change that she is to be referred to as a woman.
All of the people telling you people to believe this ridiculous crap that has an iq above room temperature can immediate infer the inevitable demographic implosion that will happen if you convince the women to not get knocked up and get jobs instead. social security is already a nightmare, what do you think will happen in 20 years?
Same thing happened to women in comp sci/math.
They used to be 33-40% of graduates in the field.
And we were super sexist back then and still debating first wave feminism.
Now we have all these programs to help their chances but they're ~10% of the field and dropping.
Whatever is happening it must be bad.
When you started talking to women about their TH-cam comments I thought, oh I haven't really experienced that but I guess my channel doesn't have much traction. And then talking about the loss of professional relationships, it really hit home. I've been self producing my music since 2011. Stuck in a limbo of bedroom pop sound. I just need a guitarist to collaborate with. I've tried four times. One was awesome and worked on two songs with me but wouldn't meet me in person, because he had a girlfriend (???). One was truly excellent at guitar and we got along and collabed once, but after he told me an embarrassing story and I didn't console him, he realised I was not trying to date and blocked me. And two others brought up casual sex before it even got as far as the music. So I guess I relate. It sucks. I just want to make music. I can't play guitar but I love the sound of it. It should be simple. It's not.
Also, I would never offer "suggestions" to make female music "better". Why the crap would I do that? They are individuals, they have their own damn voice. If they ask, then sure, but then I get practical. If they ignore my advice, then great, that's on them. Same thing I do with guys, actually.
Girls not posting their music is sad. I really don't care. Good music is good music. Get it out there. I'm willing to listen, no matter who makes it.
i loved this video for many reasons, but probably my favorite thing has been being introduced to so many new (to me) wonderfully talented female producers/musicians/etc.
In the age of our it's-cool-to-be-nondiscriminatory, your channel consistently produces content that is not only interesting but is innately equitable because that's just who you are.
Thank you Benn - you deserve the all success your hard work has brought you and then some.
Benn, this was really enlightening, thank you for speaking out!
Soo.... I've sat on this for a day now. And first I want to say thank you for this insightful video. I asked myself the same question a lot. And I would love to see a more equal share of women doing music. It was helpful to be reminded of the disparity in the comments for example (and I was shocked comparing some comment sections). And I also really feel for all the women who lost out on their contacts due to sexual advances being tied to offers. I'll certainly check my own behaviour again. I think I never did any of the 'heavier' stuff, but the homophily angle definitely struck a chord with me. No denying I am still sometimes surprised when women are genuinely good with nerd hobbies (to which I count music), just because it's so rare. I'll definitely try to keep that in check more and be even more supportive or rather nonchalant about it.
That being said, I have one issue with your video. In the beginning you talk about biological reasons and show your poll about the beliefs if it's mostly biological reasons. Then you look at the scientific evidence for the musical *abilities* of women. Showing that if anything, women are biologically *more* probable to have "music making prerequisites". Which is interesting because I always assumed they were on par and I like that you educated me and others about that. Then comes the testosterone/ risk taking thing. I'm still cool with everything. Now here comes my problem: After that, you keep assuming that the 22% who voted for biological reasons must have done so because they think women are inferior or less capable. While there are probably a lot who think that, I believe that's not the only way biology can play a major role. If I had voted, I would have been also part of the 22%. But not because I think women are biologically less capable or are somehow destined to be worse at producing music (we have tons of obvious counter examples for that. Shoutout to bad snacks, I *love* your stuff!!!).
I do believe however, that most women usually are biologically less *inclined* to put thousands of hours into activities that need a lot of *alone time* , sacrificing time they could use creating and grooming social networks. Boys and men are more likely to be okay with spending hundreds and thousands of hours *alone* in their bedroom to practice a skill than girls and women are. Mind you, this is not saying "women don't (like to) work as hard" It's saying "Most women prefer to do their hard work in groups". I also believe this view is very well scientifically backed (and that you would have seen that if you had examined that angle as thoroughly as you have the other, which I still appreciate). So I do believe theoretically there could be as many women in music as there are men, I do believe there *should* be, and I'm sad for all the good music we're missing out on because they aren't. But I also believe it is almost impossible unless the vast majority of the time spend on the road of honing those skills at the same time is congruent with most women's preference for prioritizing social bonds. Instead of sitting in your bedroom for hundreds and thousands of hours learning the guitar (synth, bass, DAW, or all of them), there would need to be spaces where people do the same, but it is a social experience at the same time. Obviously here also come the problems you addressed into play again. Those spaces would have to be mostly free from harassment and all the awful mansplaining and all the other problems you shone a light on.
This video is so true to life. I’ve pretty much experienced everything that you’ve mentioned in this video. I grew up in a household with two brothers and have great male cousins who never treated me “differently” so when I started producing music 17 years ago, I never once saw myself as “different” in the realm of music production. With that being said, it took me a while to realize that the “outside world” did view me differently and that this viewpoint was impacting my success in music production. So I got a job in Corporate America for 10 years as a stockbroker…ironically…another male dominated and ethnicity challenged field (a Black woman stock broker didn’t always sit well with some clients) lol!! 10 years later, I’m pursuing music fully and now being a bit wiser and discerning, I can see that things are still more difficult than they should be for women in music. In any case, thanks for raising awareness about this topic. Hopefully things will change for the better for women creatives sooner than later.
Love the story!🤓#Stockbroker
You are an absolute legend Benn! thankyou for touching a subject most wont touch with a 10foot drumstick.
top notch reporting!!!!
Thanks for this video Benn. It scares me how rare it is, even after two years, to find men in any industry just putting it straight like this. I will never fully understand what it is like to be a woman, but videos like this help finding ever deepening compassion and empathy for the women in my life, and ongoing drive to work and fight for change and hopefully eventually and end of this patriarchycal bs.
It's also helpful to be humbled by being confronted with how much of a part of this I have been, and probably still am whenever I fall into normalized habituated behavior from the past. Thanks to you and everyone in and arround the video for making this message a bit louder in bringing it to more ears. ❤
I'm just glad the advent of the self-producing EDM superstar has also included a few women like Rezz or Sophie. More of those please!
I really hope the comments don't turn out to be incredibly disappointing.
Thank you for making this Benn!
the homophily section really hit home for me
Yeah. I'm often worried about like "natural prejudice" and recognize that it's irrational. But, the concept of homophily makes a lot of sense here. And it's also a promising implication that as we try harder to be more inclusive, it will also become easier.
If you're a electronic music DJ / producer (particularly techno or house) the novelty of being a woman (especially if attractive) is seems much more easily marketable and likely to result in a big following on social media. In the same way as if a girl posts a selfie or comment a thousands of guys will respond saying how amazing it is, but if I guy makes the same post it will be completely ignored. I feel like it works the same with music. Perhaps it's the novelty of it or the appeal of guys imagining how cool it would be to be with a woman that has the same passion as you do.
Thank you for making this. I feel a certain shame that you even had to make this video at all, that we still have so long to go for the masculine crap to finally run out of road. Not sure what the best way to be part of the solution is but you have given me hope that we can. Keep on doing what you are doing.
such a great video! as a female musician i loved every bit of this and im currently binging all your videos haha
as a female screenprinter master i can say that it’s not only music-producing issue. ones i was told that women just can’t construct and make up things because “they play with different toys”. and that was my apprentice (male obviously) who told me that 😐 (i stopped teaching him from that moment). i don’t know what’s up with men. maybe it’s a low self esteem
Fantastic video. Being a trans woman, I can definitely compare how seriously people take me now to how seriously they took me before, and it's a lot less now, despite the indisputable fact (that doesn't care about your feelings) that I know a lot more than I used to and am generally more competent. Of course, transphobia is a thing, but I don't think that's it (although a lot of transphobia is built on the same basis of objectification that sexism is, so there is some overlap).
Being a trans woman /and/ autistic (as a lot of trans people are) I definitely have Opinions about Simon Baron-Cohen's "extreme male brain" typology too. There's this weird hypocrisy that what is pathologised in me is also what is seen as "valuable" in men and "inauthentic" in women.
I find it's all ultimately about justifying unjustifiable norms
New subscriber, new fan.
Suggestion for an episode (if not already tackled): the need for collective organization amongst musicians, either through joining a preexisting union like the AFM, or forming a new solidarity/consensus-based labour organization that is more geared to contemporary issues.
Thank you so much for making this video Benn! This is a masterpiece that is unfortunately very needed. Incredible work.
Thank you for making and posting this video, you really are a class act. I wish more men would put at least some effort into thinking about these issues and fight for a more bullshit free, equal and inclusive world. And yeah, most definitely sharing this.
Very important video, thanks very much! Been producing for about 7 years (when I first opened Ableton Live) and DJing for about 10 and I can relate to a lot of stuff the women in this video are talking about. It really shocked me that only 2 percent of producers are female. But hearing things like "You can be bolder in your style of clothing on stage" doesn't make it easier to enter the world of music production. And that's only one thing I heard, there is some more. I used to spend more time discussing and arguing with people about sexism in music industry. Meanwhile I have to say that I don't take part in these discussions that much anymore, I rather spend more time in the studio. So I have to thank people like these women in the video for speaking up for us, women in music production. You are awesome!
Thanks for presenting it in a palatable way, it definitely made me realize that there's a clear discrimination.
Dude. I just found you for this video and im so thankful. "What's shitty for everyone and what's shitty for women" is honestly a thought I've never had and im so disappointed about that. My whole life I've been so ignorant. Like I always viewed females as just not being interested in music even though any women I ever met was just the most talented I'd met. To know that it's a bigger picture thing and how I can help, bro. That's cool as hell.
Its my second time watching this video. Once when it first came out and I was just learning the ropes of music production and now a second time after navigating my way through a fair number of music spaces online and learning a lot more about the craft.
On first watch I figured it was like everything else in society that has a systemic problem, but after the second watch and reflecting on what I've seen and heard in these music spaces. Ya there is a serious problem. I have met two female producers in these online spaces. Two. Out of hundreds I've met and probably thousands that are in them. Thats crazy. The last time I was speaking with one of them I was answering a question and the whole voice channel erupted in men yelling and shouting about how she did not know a tool, causing so much disruption that I couldnt answer the question and I had to leave the channel because of the over stimulation. I cant imagine a world in which that is a fun way to have a community respond to your simple questions. Unsurprisingly I havent seen her around since.
I hope that more men watch this and figure out that they are discouraging half of the worlds talented musicians, artists, engineers, and tool makers from ever getting a start.