Just been switching the caps of my Sansui LM220-speaker-crossovers with Jantzen foil-caps. In addition I changed the cables inside the cabinet. Now I've got killer-sound in these +40yr old speakers. Highly recommended. Thanks for your channel. It encouraged me to do this DIY-tuning!
Are we to believe that the designers and audio engineers at these companies don't run the same audio tests and are unaware, or jaded, of the results? Aren't the frequency signatures what makes these speakers unique? Otherwise they'd all have generic flat frequency lines
@@gcahill51 it’s a valid point. Danny, however, is finding clear flaws like bad crossovers, impedance issues, bad design, off axis issues. He’s right that you can’t really listen to a speaker on axis. You will be getting reflections and those reflections will amplify any issues. I noticed that B&W showed its drivers and crossovers in the 700 S3 series and I feel that’s Danny’s doing as he’s torn apart a lot of B&W speakers. The days of hiding cheesy parts in expensive gear are gone😊. He’ll open them up and show you the guts. For many people DSP corrects some. of these things and alleviate the brightness of a B&W speaker. Actually, in my case it adds +9db to my high frequencies tweeters. It’s absurd…
After watching several of his films, I simply stopped believing in this wisdom. All of them, except his modifications, are hopeless. With all due respect, but first of all, large companies producing loudspeakers do not have worse engineers. "Up and down" are probably often intentional to eliminate bands undesirable by the creators. Receiving sounds through the ear is not a transmission between devices.
ATC make quality products, they're not cheap but there's some serious engineering behind them. There are made in my home town and I know people who have worked there over the years. A decent company worth supporting IMHO.
I also live locally and have had a tour of the premises and a session in their listening room. It's not flashy or amazingly high tech in terms of processes - but it's clear that the company has a very clear philosophy and understands exactly what it's doing. The active speakers are stunning, but the passives and electronics are very intelligently designed.
The ATC crossovers have about 5 weeks play time on them now. Absolutely fantastic. One of the biggest bang for the buck in my 30 years assembling and tweaking audio systems. The increase in detail, separation, clarity without a hint of harshness is astounding. Bumping up the tweeter level just a touch was the right call. Thanks Danny!
You probably dont give a shit but does someone know a tool to get back into an Instagram account? I somehow lost my login password. I would appreciate any help you can offer me
@Juelz Van i really appreciate your reply. I got to the site thru google and im trying it out now. I see it takes quite some time so I will get back to you later with my results.
The first time I listened to the EPOS I was totally mesmerized and just sat there for 25 minutes listening to the music and forgot about equipment in the system. One of the few small speakers that captured the "feel" of the music being played.
@@РуфатШиралиев-л8л I’ve never seen any marketing for ATC. Furthermore, they implement one of the most over-built drivers I’ve ever seen. Look at that magnet.
@@niandra92 HI Mr. 👋 Mr. Look carefully, please.. ATC woofers very primitive driver, which have very heavy membrane and very cheap low effective magnet, therefore ATC have catastrophic low sensitivity 85 db!! Yes, two metal flanges looks big, but magnet very thin and cheap. Result - low effective magnet system.. And, Mr. Look, please inside ATC 19. ATC use extremely thin and cheap speaker wires and very cheap crossover parts - primitive budget yellow capacitors, look: www.lowbeats.de/site/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/ATC_SCM19-Frequenzweiche.jpg
I love how you put a lot of effort into making the response as flat as possible. I hear so many audiophiles say "Bah.. You should never look at speaker response specs they mean nothing". I call bullshit on them. Specifications and frequency curves are the only way to compare one speaker against another with all other variables being taken out of the mix like room acoustics and source signals. Love your channel Danny. Keep up the good work!
That's not the only criteria! Don't forget woody, punchy, soulful, captivating, harsh/sibilant, 2D/3D/holographic, and all the characteristics of materials (skin, metal, wood, ceramic, glass, etc). Amplitude vs frequency does nothing if the realism and detail isn't cohesive and believable. We've all heard flat curves which still sounded harsh...
You did a very very good job. Most audiophiles (including myself) do not have a clue about any designs or quality of the engineering behind the sound that we hear. We just relied on those reviewers who are more of a salesman than engineers. Now I can say that ATC is very well made speakers. Please do more of this Strip Analysis of audio gears.
Yep, bought a pair 7 months ago for my studio. Sitting about 53" from speaker to ear. Really love these speakers. Stereo image and midrange on these is magic. I use a sub just slightly. Dont really need it with these but I just like tiny bit extra bass so I can hear those really low frequencies when composing.
I have newer owned an ATC loudspeaker but I think they possess fine engineering. Obviously the more expensive the better. What has gotten me to write here, is that I think their two way bass driver possess a rare but great engineering tweak. If I get it correct (and I am not 100% sure) then the 3 inch voice coil is attached directly to the 3 inch center dust cap. The outer part of the cone however is attached with a flexible inner surround which decouples the cone at higher frequencies. So it’s actually 3 way speaker. This concept improves the drivers dispersion and reduce standing waves and breakups in the main part of the cone. Lovely design feature if my memory serves me well, otherwise ATC must implement it just to keep me happy. Thanks for a lovely channel and greetings from Denmark.
Hi Klaus, I own the same ATC SCM11 speakers in Danny’s video and you are absolutely right, the design is effectively 3-way. Although on the back of the speaker there are only 2 sets of binding posts (not the typical 3 sets of posts that you’d find on a typical 3-way design). So perhaps is best to think of the SCM11 as a 2-way-3-way design! You should try a pair, they sound wonderful.
I ordered your ATC SCM11 upgrade kit last week and installed it yesterday. Just wanted to say thanks and wow. Really took these to the next level. I can't comment on the bass that much as I use a sub to handle the lows but man the mids and high are gorgeous now. Again thanks for what you do. Please keep it up and love the videos. I am an electronics tech for over 35 years and enjoy your engineering view point.
Its the ATC SMC11 you have on hand. It's a domestic monitor and not their studio line. They voiced that speaker like that as it is preferred for domestic use.
Agree fully, the SCM11 are deliberately voiced that way as they are hi-fi reference (not studio reference) speakers. That way, if recordings do end up being made overly ‘hot’ in the recording studio, then these speakers can tame that ‘heat’ when listening through them at home. ATC know what they’re doing.
Nice to see that you found something you like. I suspect the slight downward slope across most of the frequency range of the ATC is intentional, done so that when they are used as near field monitors (the engineer probably seated only three to five feet from the monitors) the response will match the gently down-slopping response that you would hear in a far-field listening environment, such as a well tuned mastering studio. If your customer is using them as mini-monitors on stands in a reasonably large room, your idea to make them measure flat at one meter would make complete sense. Many pro near-field monitors come with a high frequency slope or level adjustment, to accommodate these two different use cases without modification.
I loved my B&W 602s2 speakers, it’s exactly the sound I love. After years of trying other speakers I have ended up with a pair of 607s and I love them. Perhaps some people (like me) just enjoy that sound of the B&Ws.
My DM602's are still going strong after nearly 25 years. I've taken great care of them throughout their life, and they still look and sound great. I even still have the original packaging to use when moving house!
I bought some 706s and I liked the sound of them on TH-cam. They are expensive but I'm a speaker freak and I design and build my own and have a few sets (both single driver speakers and coaxials). I do it just for fun and by ear in a room. But the bass intensity changes a lot as I walk around the room and have no idea how much bass to put into my speakers (the room is so acoustically bad). And it's easy to get used to an inaccurate sound. So I needed monitors and I needed expensive ones so I can frame the docket and compare them to mine for less than half the price (if I sell any). I don't know if mine are better or worse but since I bought the 706s my speakers sound millions better than they ever did (by a large measure)! Mine built ones I just finished are coaxial and they have the point source advantage over the B&Ws. And two of my friends (the only ones listening then) both prefered mine. Maybe cos of the point source 2-way sound. But that would not have been possible without the amazing 706s. Do you like coaxials? Maybe you can make some out of separate drivers: th-cam.com/video/4LJE8DNZZbA/w-d-xo.html
Danny Richie hit the ballpark with the ATCs. Those who disagree, well I've been reading, studying, and designing speakers since the late 70s, Danny knows his stuff. Please use his expertise if you want the most bang for the buck. And if you can afford it, his larger open baffle designs are fabulous, competing with other designs that are many, many times the price. I've heard his rooms at RMAF shows and as I was Al Stiefel's partner along with Marjorie, I know of what I say. Also we have used his Soni-Caps and they are very good.
I have a pair of epos 22 loudspeakers- minimalist first order crossover with an aluminum dome tweeter and woofer all designed by Robin Marshall who has a PhD in Physics and who played the bass. The sound of Epos- 22 with the big Exposure Amps and Pre-amps with two Rel-S5 subwoofers, fully spec Linn lp-12, and Linn Akurate DSM all room corrected for the bass is musicality with such palpability-the direct sound, the speed, the pace, the rhythm, the timing, the dynamics and the clarity is goose bumps- head shaking all with emotions. Robin Marshal’s design of the Epos ES-14 and Epos Es-11 where designed by ear also- not just a frequency response and ect. Did Danny listen to the Epos-12 on a truly high- end system before he tries to “improve” the sound? Maybe he should talk to Robin Marshal - PhD in Physics- who designed the loudspeakers and wrote a twenty- one page white paper explaining the designs of the Epos-14 loudspeakers with a simple first order crossover using a single capacitor. Robin Marshall had to design the tweeter and woofer in order to pull of his simple first order crossover design.
There are pros and cons to this type of design. And in this case the designer may have left a little on the table. Several issues have been overlooked. Stay tuned till next week....
Totally agree, Robin designed some great sounding speakers for Epos as well as some of the earlier Monitor Audio's. These type of designs may not be technically perfect and even sound coloured but boy do they produce great sounding music. The simplistic design of the x-over needs quality drivers to work properly but produce excellent efficiency and a very dynamic realistic live sound. I found through experimentations a few years ago this and the earlier Monitor Audio designs could be improved even further by implementing a third order Butterworth on the tweeter (2nd on the bass/mid driver) crossing at around 3.2Khz. Then by using a strut brace from left to right 2/3 of the way up the cabinet (Helped with the resonance from 450-550Hz) and careful placement and amount of acoustic foam and a little real wool wadding gave the right amount of damping. I used Ansar supersound caps which I found provided a sweet transparent sound and were better in my opinion than many expensive ones I tried. Sold them off a few years ago and regretted it ever since. Most speakers I hear these days south of £2000 sound pretty bad and are poorly made.
Hi Danny. You mentioned you would like to replace the inner wiring. What cables would you recommend not changing the character of a speaker? Hope to get answer from you. Regards Michael
I had a pair of those 602's for 18 years, replaced a tweeter when an amp discharged a cap at an inopportune time, really loved them but a woofer needed replacing, so I just changed out the entire 7.1 system, with B&W of course.
Danny is particularly lucid in this video. I’ve been wondering if he was ever going to open up and explain how he interpreted those graphs. Thanks for being so generous Danny.
I like the video s but I have unusual speakers old advent's. I had to replace the woofers I could not fine parts I used,12 woofers from a car part store crossover is a switch for high & low
I owned the previous Epos ES11 (used the same simple crossover) and they were boomy and dull in my living room, but as near-field monitors there were amazing - Very live and detailed sound, but not harsh either.... Had a shop demo of the B&W 601 in the mid 90s, and thought they were dull as hell. I can also remember the treble not integrating with the mids and standing out like a sore thumb. I had a non-audiophile mate with me and even he thought they were terrible.
these are actually my speakers, and every thing you said is 100% true (rega integrated, bel cato dac). I need to make the Epos stands higher though for my seating position: which is why I sent these to Danny to begin with to see what the fall off was that I was experiencing.
But, their x-over sucks (not affiliated with Danny at all), and the 4kHz cone resonance surely sings on it's own - thankfully it's polypropylene cone that has decent self damping so it's not as agressive (smooth sounding) as better paper or kevlar, carbon fiber cones. My friends would laugh at me if I would show them something like that. I bet proper x-over around 2.5-3kHz that attenuates the cone break-up, levels tweeter a little and puts drivers into phase alignment would make into way nicer sounding spkrs.
Those B&Ws were my first set of speakers back in about 1999, and I thought they were the bees knees: they played as loud as my friend's Mission floorstanders and I used to get up close and listen to that fizzy tweeter - aged 14 that basically amounted to what we thought was more detail which was what it was all about (and volume)! Looking back it was totally weird that two kids out of 6 in a boarding house dormitory had huge speakers set up. The rest of them must have hated us.
I've been in love with that ES12 when i listened it on a friend's shop. it was on sale and ive been saving for it until someone steal that dream of mine. can't find another ES12 on sale locally until now. im aware of the ridiculously simple crossover and intrigued by how it sounds from such a simple crossover
I’m nerve really happy with uTubes suggestions of what I might like until today. I’ve watched one video this morning and learned more in that one video I wished I’d known years ago. I’ll probably be binging on GR-Research videos today. Looking forward to it tho. Probably be contacting you for some update advice on how and where to get it done. Thanks so much.
Hi Danny, I think that ATC is from their domestic hifi range, not the pro monitor, so they may have voiced them differently. Also you didn't mention the shape of the box....really interesting series...thanks
Thanks Danny for the xover revision help. The ATC SCM11v2 are mine. I've had them for a couple years and I enjoy their sound in my space very much. I felt they were capable of more...hence the parts upgrade. I purchased them used from a gentlemen in the UK, who upgraded to the much larger 19, for $1100 USD shipped. They retail for $2200 USD. MusicDirect has 60-day eval. There was a prior non-v2 version, pre-2013, with a different non-ATC made tweeter and rectangular cabinet. They are made for home use, not studio, and probably why the very high end is rolled off a bit. The woofer is their CLD (constrained layer damping) version unlike the 19 and above that have their SL driver. I understand the SL driver in the 19 weighs as much as the entire model 11. The tweeter is non-S spec. Same drivers are used in the all black, less expensive, SCM12Pro. I drive these with a fine BHK 250 amp and they are paired with two Rythmik L12 sealed subs. They are quite true to the recording but completely unfatiguing and hopefully remain so with the tweeter lift of 1/2-1dB. A couple of parts were missed in the return to me otherwise they be done but soon they should be up and running again. Be well everyone!
@@dannyrichie9743 At 50 hours, the clarity is startling. The highs are a bit shrill but I hope they will settle a bit with more run-in time. Of course it will take weeks to fully asses but so far, not bad. I may revert to the stock tweeter cap and resister combo if the upper end is too much or in time I may adjust (ears, setup, etc.)
@@brettb9600 The Sonicap should only improve clarity and won't give them a shrill sound. Those caps also need a good 100 to 200 hours to settle. So I'd put some time on them and hear what happens. We can also make slight adjustments to the resistors in the tweeter circuit to move the level around slightly. But burn them in well first, and then let me know what you think.
@@dannyrichie9743 120 hours and they are getting really really nice. The shrill top end is gone, the clarity is still astounding and I think they will only continue to improve. Happy! They are significantly more resolving than original.
@@dannyrichie9743 I'm still happy with the sound though the increase in treble does make poor recordings sound worse but good/proper recordings sound fantastic. I have EQ to use to tame the highs of poorly recorded or mastered '80s stuff.
Danny, great video, as usual, but there is two things I would love to see in the future in your vids: 1. The final, improved results of all 3 of these, along with what you did and how much it all costs. 2. Somehow if you could incorporate some kind of pointer or something on screen when you are showing and talking about all of the various response graphs, that way you can clearly point to the exact spots on the graph that you are referring to when talking about them, that way more people can clearly visualize exactly what you are talking about, as that would be especially helpful for the less technically inclined, and/or the newbies out there who are trying to learn about speakers but still don't know what everything looks like when trying to interpret all of those graphs, especially the spectral decay 3-D one! Keep up the great work, and if you could somehow find a way to add that final above info./pointer, it would be a huge help in everyone understanding your videos better!
An interesting mix of traditional (ATC), high tech (B&W) and innovation (Epos). I would have gone for the Epos ES14 as it’s a purer version of the design. If there’s a bit of mid bass downward roll off, position the speaker next to the rear wall. Unless I’ve missed it there’s quite a bit of driver and crossover matching. Then there’s the size and scale of each of the manufacturers. I’ve still got some ES14s. They still stand up today as musical and communicative. It’s music for pleasure for me!!
Love your content. Keep it up. Can you do an episode maybe talking about why measurements are mostly great for speaker performance given its characteristics, compared to its true sound which is a combo of parts, and cone materials. In other words, talk about why two speakers that measure the same, could still sound very different.
Cheesey? First time viewer. I must say that the detail that this guy goes into is exceptional. Well presented videos with all the data and graphs pasted on top of the video. Learnt a few new things so had to subscribe. I will browse his previous videos to see what else he covers. Cheers
Fantastic video! Giving a lot of insights into tweaking in general and how to get in there without ruining the existing engineering. Thank you very much and Merry Christmas
Hifi is my hobby, I've owned plenty of speakers and components over 30 years. I stopped changing speakers when I bought a second hand pair of ATC's (40's). End game. Very interested in these simple upgrades but I live in Melbourne Australia and I don't know if we have guys like Danny around here.
8:40 I put ASC panels on the side walls, ceiling and wall behind speakers using a mirror on the side and ceiling and where I see the speaker seated on my chair I put a panel, in that way I kill 80% of multiple reflections creating a much better image making the speakers dissapear Excellent video
I have sold hifi for 10 years and owned ATC for 15 years and they are under priced for what you get. The fit, finish and engineering is superb. Their drivers are second to non and sonically the easiest to sell when compared to other speakers. You do have to partner them well with good grippy amplifiers (good low volume current). I have had SCM40 MK1, SCM40 MK2, SCM40 Active and love them all. Got SCM50A on order now. Can't wait
Prior to buying my SCM20ASLs I was looking at a pair of passive 20s which I was tempted to try with one of my vintage Amcron (Crown) PA amps. Loads of current available and even the smallest one is 300Watts per channel. The biggest is 2500! I recall reading a review of a Crown DC300A used as a hifi amp and how well it performed.
@Zvonimir Komar I have used many amps but the ATC SIA2-150 and / or CA2 P1 P2 combo blow away most amplifiers and quite a few levels above the 909 and will lift the 40s to another level. I do like 909s though as I think they offer great value.
@@stephenclark5218 Excellent setup. I used to have CA2 with 2x P1 running bi amp. One P1 for bass. Going active was an all new ball game but it is also a lot of money in one go.
Hey, first of all thanks for all information you posted on your channel - it is pure 💎 I got a question for you, have you ever seen atc scm 35? Does they have same issues with thickness and crossover need to be fixed?
Good to know that my ATC11’s get a thumb up from Danny. I don’t use them as studio monitors so don’t need the 1 dB lift in the highs. May consider the rest of the upgrade though. Thanks Danny!
Great and informative vid GR... Thanks... Just goes to show, pretty box, poor innards! Another, "you get what you pay for" ... Disappointing cabinet thickness on the ATC's though! Frank.... UK...
EPI had a small two way with only a capacitor for blocking DC to the Tweeter. I sold the hell out of them because they were CLEAN in their presentation. It's why I've waited for a mature, inexpensive, individually amped and EQed to the drivers speaker.
What would be the upgrade to the ATCs then? Not done any DYI myself on gear, but from what you're saying, does not look expensive or difficult to do that minor upgrade. You have the 11s, I have thr 19s which has a magnet that makes the 11s look small. Sounds great.
@@dannyrichie9743 Sounds reasonable. I know you have the ATC SCM19 v2 in your shop, can't wait what you make of them. The woofer is something else, gigantic dust cap with a sticky tar on it and over 10kg of magnet.
I just found your channel and loving it, I know you seem to focus on speakers what about on the other side, good quality equip to buy (receiver, tuner,preamp,amp)? Is there a site one can go and see what's good and not?
This is a general comment rather than about this vid specifically, but I only just started watching this channel and it inspired me to take a look at the crossovers in my Mission 780 speakers. The components are all cheap, and I've tried a quick experimental upgrade. All I've done is replace electrolytic caps with polypropylene caps - nothing special, just some I had lying around. And the improvement is astonishing. It's not subtle, it's jaw-dropping. It's "Wow, was that detail really there on my favourite recordings all along?" I'm going to get some good components and build whole new crossovers now. Many thanks for an excellent channel.
@@frequentlycynical642 As close as I could get them with what I had. The originals were 15uF at 10% tolerance, and I replaced them with a 10uF and 4.7uF in parallel at 5% tolerance (and which actually measured a lot closer than 5%).
@@osliverpool Did your reply end with (and which..... ??? I'll def have to try this. A few bucks could be well spent. My speakers are almost 40 years old, so the effective capacitance may have drifted way off original.
@@frequentlycynical642 It ends "(and which actually measured a lot closer than 5%)". I think replacing your old electrolytics with film caps is well worth trying.
@@osliverpool We know that electrolytics go bad. Why a good audio rebuild includes cap replacement. I looked at a schematic for a three way crossover, as my speakers would be. Caps are used, of course, for high frequency pass through. Also, to drain high frequencies from the woofer and mid range. Why bother at the woofer? Anyway, I can't imagine a capacitor increasing in value, so capacitor aging would probably mean mostly a loss of high frequencies going to the mid-range and tweeter. Hopefully, while I'm off work, I'll open up my speaker cabinet and see what is in there. I've been "into" electronics for some 60 years, so I'm good with this simple project.
The ATC is much more money than the other speakers. Not surprising it is better designed. I think they are around 3 thousand a pair, The others well under a thousand.
The curved design of the ATC box tends to act as a brace. It won't eliminate vibrations but the curve makes the side of the case stronger in some dimensions.
Have you posted a video with the measurements of the speakers output with and without the cheap binding posts? I've been thinking about doing this to my Paradigm 800F tower speakers, but don't want to waste my time and money if it's just a small measurable difference that I won't hear.
wonder is it possible for manufacture(such as Focal) claimed their driver design so minimum or simple cross over is needed to sound accurate & good dynamic ;also move the cross over away from mid frq.?Thanks Danny
Fair enough. When I was on the AES Melbourne Section (Australia) committee, Billy Woodman visited and gave a presentation. It must have about 35 years ago. He passed around the legendary 5" dome mid-range driver, which had a huge motor. You needed both hands to hold it. Ever since then I have been interested to see various reviewers comment on the transparency and width of the soundstage.
The Epos Ess speaker has two sets of binding posts and I suspect they are designed for active crossovers and bi-amplification. The cap is probably there just for a bit of protection.
Do you do step response measurements after modification to see how the speakers behave in the time domain? Or do you think time alignment is not as important? Just curious
I have the ATC SCM19 and could compare them to the SCM11. I think you should try to get a pair of the SCM19. Bought mine used for 1500€ in Germany :-). I also added a SB-1000 subwoofer and use a Yamaha A-S1200 as an amp.
@@greggcheap6208 Maybe, but that does not mean they should have thick walls- look at the LS3/5a and other British sealed design monitors. All thin design on purpose.
@@greggcheap6208 If you look at Stirling Audio's website it's actually called "“lossy” cabinet design philosophy developed by BBC Research Department at Kingswood Warren."
@@LorDarkGoose I look at speaker design through the eyes of DIY. I've never heard of purposely making a cabinet "lossy" I'm sure they know more than I do on that subject. I do wonder how that box measures during the back wave of the woofer. It just may breathe lol 😏
@@greggcheap6208 Agreed :) Same here. It seems weird but works somehow. Well- in listening anyway. Maybe has to do with how they designed it for small spaces and near field monitoring. But yes, I don't know if such things were a factor for the ATC's engineers...Keep things interesting through ! :)
First order crossovers are great cos no information is short circuited and so isn't lost. Only diminished where necessary. My snake oil. Also never resist a tweeter is my snake oil. And have the terminals of the tweeter well twisted just before the tweeter (not soldered). Just before the soldered terminals on the tweeter. My snake oil I found out by soldering the crossover on a pair of speakers I made. After that they sounded more "scratchy". So that's why I twist the tweeter wires. lol I don't listen to med driver in the box or out of the box. If you tap a driver in the box it's a warm sound. If you tap a completely open driver it will hardly make a sound and is a cold sound. But if you place the driver near the hole and the driver is semi open it will also sound warm when you tap the cone. With a bass vented speaker hole and the driver near it I get an open warm sound instead of the usual closed in warm sound. It's a sound that is different to "normal" med driver mounting. For coaxial speakers it's possible to raise the coaxial driver just above the speaker hole (with spacers) if you make a 2" deep tube running inward around the speaker hole. Surprisingly it works and sounds like any other bass vent except it's completely point source. To make a full range driver have more khz put a 1 cm hole in the dust cap and glue a 1 cm x 3mm skinny diamond shape piece of foil (with pointy ends) over the hole. The ends horizontally glued to the edges of the hole. Use coffee can seal stiff foil. It's tedious but rewarding. You will hear serious cymbals! FR not muffly!
I have a pair of ATC SCM100's I bought them over 20 years ago couldn't afford the A's but being a 3 way cab makes a massive difference, so detailed, I replaced the original tweeters with a pair of Beyma CP21F maybe not the best choice, I understand that being a slot type rotating it 90 degrees gives it a wider dispersion, this I've yet to try.
You know I never bought a brand new set of speakers. In the late 70's I went to Radio Shack and found a kit to build a speaker cabinet and I did. Filled it with 8" woofer, 4"midrange, and 3"woofer. All from Radio Shack. I loved the sound only could not get a second cabinet later to make it a pair. In the early 80's I went to a local swap Meet and found a pair of heavy speakers were the cabinets were strong. Only black wood. Guts I thought were bad and I paid $20.00. Just then someone wanted the guts, so I sold them to him for $14.00. So, technically out $6.00. I then went to a local Electronic Store that sold all kinds of parts. Sparky Electronics. I bought two each 10" woofers, 4" midrange, 3' speakers, and three way crossovers. The cabinets had great insulation and I fitted them all speakers into the cabinets. Oh, did they sound fantastic. As years went on I replaced the guts from the same place about ten years ago. This time brands were Peerless brand, I even bought out the extra 3 sets they had of tweeters. The store was closing. For when ever. The new guts again out of this world sound. I will never part with them. I later acquired my Dad's old Stereo we had done the same to his around that time. His were two-way but great sound too. His was a 1971 Pioneer receiver, Dual turntable, and DWD speakers ( they are still beautiful cabinets). I use both stereo's today. Sometimes you just have to assemble them for an ideal set of speakers.
Sorry about poor english! Danny , about B&W 602, and every two way speaker of 600 series (1,2 and 3); I'm afraid be impossible to fix the problem only by changing it's crossover!! This because Kevlar speakers are woofer, not a mid bass! I own a 601 s3 since 2004. I bought it new! I realized immediately poor hi mids ! It's original crossover have a 6dB 8a cut frequency, around 1khz, to low pass , and a 18dB 8a cut frequency to hi pass filters! There is a hole between woofer and tweeter! No mids!! I put another 2 way crossover , open a low pass filter, to 3,5 khz, but there was a terrible ressonance in hi mids!! Then , the only way to fix this speakers was change to a 3 way crossover , and add a mid range!! I put a JBL titanium drive opened, like a domo drive, without horns!! Sucess! It'a another speaker!!! Don't waste time trying to fix this speaker with 2 way crossovers!! Hugs from Brasil!
A really great video! Well presented. Never thought about modifying my speakers. Thanks, greatly appreciate it. I liked and subscribed looking forward to other videos. Just curious which speaker sounded best to you?
What about nearfield response? Some speakers are only designed to be listened to on axis as monitors being directly in front of them. For me, I use small monitors 99% of the time where I am directly in the center of both speakers. And I have tower speakers if I want to fill a room with sound.
Hey Mr Richie just wanted to say that I really enjoy these type of videos Man! big fan of your work thanks for all the content and sorry for all my Michigan weather that migrated down there, really appreciate you Sir and take care.
alot of speaker upgrade reviews but it would be nice to hear any before after comparison actually ive watched a handfull of his speaker vids and have not seen or heard any speakers under load making music
I just stumbled across this video, I bought a pair of Epos Epic 2s off of CL, awhile back. One of the best speakers I've heard. I like them better than my Triangle Bro3! Sounds really, really good with my Fisher 400.
Thanks for a very interesting video! The ATC is the right size and shape to be an SCM11, from the Entry Series of the Consumer HiFi side of the range. For completeness the gentleman here (Danny) said the others were the EPOS ES-12 and a B&W 602 s2. [Edit: The ATC is currently available, retail is £1300 in the UK (xe tells me that a hair over $1700 USD. Others are ~20 year old models and only available 2nd hand]
Just been switching the caps of my Sansui LM220-speaker-crossovers with Jantzen foil-caps. In addition I changed the cables inside the cabinet. Now I've got killer-sound in these +40yr old speakers. Highly recommended. Thanks for your channel. It encouraged me to do this DIY-tuning!
The density of technical information is somehow rendered coherent for a layperson in a really seamless manner. Great work. Thank you!
Are we to believe that the designers and audio engineers at these companies don't run the same audio tests and are unaware, or jaded, of the results? Aren't the frequency signatures what makes these speakers unique? Otherwise they'd all have generic flat frequency lines
@@gcahill51 it’s a valid point. Danny, however, is finding clear flaws like bad crossovers, impedance issues, bad design, off axis issues. He’s right that you can’t really listen to a speaker on axis. You will be getting reflections and those reflections will amplify any issues.
I noticed that B&W showed its drivers and crossovers in the 700 S3 series and I feel that’s Danny’s doing as he’s torn apart a lot of B&W speakers.
The days of hiding cheesy parts in expensive gear are gone😊. He’ll open them up and show you the guts. For many people DSP corrects some. of these things and alleviate the brightness of a B&W speaker. Actually, in my case it adds +9db to my high frequencies tweeters. It’s absurd…
@@gcahill51 Yes and no.
After watching several of his films, I simply stopped believing in this wisdom. All of them, except his modifications, are hopeless. With all due respect, but first of all, large companies producing loudspeakers do not have worse engineers. "Up and down" are probably often intentional to eliminate bands undesirable by the creators. Receiving sounds through the ear is not a transmission between devices.
ATC speakers are upper end in price, great video, apparently this is why they get stellar reviews!
Love this channel, this is how speaker designs should be reviewed and analyzed...
Whenever Danny gets a speaker he likes or find kudos, then his voice cracks up in such a sweet way 😀😀😀👍 Your the sonic man.
ATC make quality products, they're not cheap but there's some serious engineering behind them. There are made in my home town and I know people who have worked there over the years. A decent company worth supporting IMHO.
Yeah! Absolute stunning quality and true "HI-FI"! The drivers are from exceptional quality, really some of the best available.
I also live locally and have had a tour of the premises and a session in their listening room. It's not flashy or amazingly high tech in terms of processes - but it's clear that the company has a very clear philosophy and understands exactly what it's doing. The active speakers are stunning, but the passives and electronics are very intelligently designed.
serious engineering?????????????? Ha, Ha, Ha.
The ATC crossovers have about 5 weeks play time on them now. Absolutely fantastic. One of the biggest bang for the buck in my 30 years assembling and tweaking audio systems. The increase in detail, separation, clarity without a hint of harshness is astounding. Bumping up the tweeter level just a touch was the right call. Thanks Danny!
@Brett B ! Did you do the whole upgrade? Also No-Rez and did it stick to that curved inner side? No need to kerf the foam?
@@rikardekvall3433 yes, no-Rez stuck just fine. No worries. Very good upgrade. Give it 100 hours of play to settle.
You probably dont give a shit but does someone know a tool to get back into an Instagram account?
I somehow lost my login password. I would appreciate any help you can offer me
@Raphael Ali instablaster :)
@Juelz Van i really appreciate your reply. I got to the site thru google and im trying it out now.
I see it takes quite some time so I will get back to you later with my results.
Very interesting I do really enjoy your speaker break downs and evaluation. Thanks Danny
The first time I listened to the EPOS I was totally mesmerized and just sat there for 25 minutes listening to the music and forgot about equipment in the system. One of the few small speakers that captured the "feel" of the music being played.
I would argue that’s one of the key advantages of a single cap crossover. I am a Reference 3A addict, and they use the very same approach.
@@tyroneedge8267 Epos are better in my opinion! I have tried the De Capo and did not quite like it as much as the Epos ES14.
I generally hate little speakers but thecepis are nice
ATC, a gem, but not cheap. Good speakers, good sound
For own price ATC made catastrophic cheaply. PMC, ATC, Dynaudio, Focal, B&W made speakers extremely cheaply.. Because made Marketers, no Engineers.
@@РуфатШиралиев-л8л I’ve never seen any marketing for ATC. Furthermore, they implement one of the most over-built drivers I’ve ever seen. Look at that magnet.
@@niandra92 HI Mr. 👋 Mr. Look carefully, please.. ATC woofers very primitive driver, which have very heavy membrane and very cheap low effective magnet, therefore ATC have catastrophic low sensitivity 85 db!! Yes, two metal flanges looks big, but magnet very thin and cheap. Result - low effective magnet system.. And, Mr. Look, please inside ATC 19. ATC use extremely thin and cheap speaker wires and very cheap crossover parts - primitive budget yellow capacitors, look: www.lowbeats.de/site/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/ATC_SCM19-Frequenzweiche.jpg
I love how you put a lot of effort into making the response as flat as possible. I hear so many audiophiles say "Bah.. You should never look at speaker response specs they mean nothing". I call bullshit on them. Specifications and frequency curves are the only way to compare one speaker against another with all other variables being taken out of the mix like room acoustics and source signals. Love your channel Danny. Keep up the good work!
That's not the only criteria! Don't forget woody, punchy, soulful, captivating, harsh/sibilant, 2D/3D/holographic, and all the characteristics of materials (skin, metal, wood, ceramic, glass, etc). Amplitude vs frequency does nothing if the realism and detail isn't cohesive and believable. We've all heard flat curves which still sounded harsh...
You did a very very good job. Most audiophiles (including myself) do not have a clue about any designs or quality of the engineering behind the sound that we hear. We just relied on those reviewers who are more of a salesman than engineers. Now I can say that ATC is very well made speakers. Please do more of this Strip Analysis of audio gears.
I own a pair of ATC SCM 25 monitors. They really are worth the money.
Yep, bought a pair 7 months ago for my studio. Sitting about 53" from speaker to ear. Really love these speakers. Stereo image and midrange on these is magic. I use a sub just slightly. Dont really need it with these but I just like tiny bit extra bass so I can hear those really low frequencies when composing.
I have newer owned an ATC loudspeaker but I think they possess fine engineering. Obviously the more expensive the better. What has gotten me to write here, is that I think their two way bass driver possess a rare but great engineering tweak. If I get it correct (and I am not 100% sure) then the 3 inch voice coil is attached directly to the 3 inch center dust cap. The outer part of the cone however is attached with a flexible inner surround which decouples the cone at higher frequencies. So it’s actually 3 way speaker. This concept improves the drivers dispersion and reduce standing waves and breakups in the main part of the cone. Lovely design feature if my memory serves me well, otherwise ATC must implement it just to keep me happy. Thanks for a lovely channel and greetings from Denmark.
Hi Klaus, I own the same ATC SCM11 speakers in Danny’s video and you are absolutely right, the design is effectively 3-way. Although on the back of the speaker there are only 2 sets of binding posts (not the typical 3 sets of posts that you’d find on a typical 3-way design). So perhaps is best to think of the SCM11 as a 2-way-3-way design! You should try a pair, they sound wonderful.
I own a pair of ATC SCM7's. They are killer. Unbelievable the quality of sound from such a small box. The speakers are hand built by ATC themselves.
And they cost around 2k.
@@MrWisdom4U a good pair of speakers can give a life time of enjoyment
@@MrWisdom4U That much in the US (I assume you mean dollars)? In the UK they're around £900 or a little less.
@@rosstee And ATC guarantees all parts from manufacturing defects for life.
Will be very cool to see a follow up video after you have applied your various suggested upgrades to each speaker. eager to see that one!
Seeing the different graphs with the different speakers really helped me understand what been measured.
Thanks Danny👍
I ordered your ATC SCM11 upgrade kit last week and installed it yesterday. Just wanted to say thanks and wow. Really took these to the next level. I can't comment on the bass that much as I use a sub to handle the lows but man the mids and high are gorgeous now. Again thanks for what you do. Please keep it up and love the videos. I am an electronics tech for over 35 years and enjoy your engineering view point.
Did you also add the Miflex bypass cap?
How much is the upgrade kit?
I could watch these videos all day... learning constantly!
Its the ATC SMC11 you have on hand. It's a domestic monitor and not their studio line. They voiced that speaker like that as it is preferred for domestic use.
Atc smc11
Agree fully, the SCM11 are deliberately voiced that way as they are hi-fi reference (not studio reference) speakers. That way, if recordings do end up being made overly ‘hot’ in the recording studio, then these speakers can tame that ‘heat’ when listening through them at home. ATC know what they’re doing.
SCM11 mk2
Nice to see that you found something you like. I suspect the slight downward slope across most of the frequency range of the ATC is intentional, done so that when they are used as near field monitors (the engineer probably seated only three to five feet from the monitors) the response will match the gently down-slopping response that you would hear in a far-field listening environment, such as a well tuned mastering studio. If your customer is using them as mini-monitors on stands in a reasonably large room, your idea to make them measure flat at one meter would make complete sense. Many pro near-field monitors come with a high frequency slope or level adjustment, to accommodate these two different use cases without modification.
I loved my B&W 602s2 speakers, it’s exactly the sound I love. After years of trying other speakers I have ended up with a pair of 607s and I love them. Perhaps some people (like me) just enjoy that sound of the B&Ws.
My DM602's are still going strong after nearly 25 years. I've taken great care of them throughout their life, and they still look and sound great. I even still have the original packaging to use when moving house!
maybe a matter of personal taste. even if I forced me to use them, they caused fatigue tbh. still have them, but not using them.
I agree as I have the 602s3.
I have a pair of 607 and found it too forward and bright. Didn't like them until I changed my amp to Hegel H120.
I bought some 706s and I liked the sound of them on TH-cam. They are expensive but I'm a speaker freak and I design and build my own and have a few sets (both single driver speakers and coaxials). I do it just for fun and by ear in a room. But the bass intensity changes a lot as I walk around the room and have no idea how much bass to put into my speakers (the room is so acoustically bad). And it's easy to get used to an inaccurate sound. So I needed monitors and I needed expensive ones so I can frame the docket and compare them to mine for less than half the price (if I sell any). I don't know if mine are better or worse but since I bought the 706s my speakers sound millions better than they ever did (by a large measure)! Mine built ones I just finished are coaxial and they have the point source advantage over the B&Ws. And two of my friends (the only ones listening then) both prefered mine. Maybe cos of the point source 2-way sound. But that would not have been possible without the amazing 706s. Do you like coaxials? Maybe you can make some out of separate drivers: th-cam.com/video/4LJE8DNZZbA/w-d-xo.html
I owned a pair of those ATC speakers (SCM 11?) and a pair of the ATC20-2A speakers. Both are great little near-field monitors. Thanks for the video!
Danny Richie hit the ballpark with the ATCs. Those who disagree, well I've been reading, studying, and designing speakers since the late 70s, Danny knows his stuff. Please use his expertise if you want the most bang for the buck. And if you can afford it, his larger open baffle designs are fabulous, competing with other designs that are many, many times the price. I've heard his rooms at RMAF shows and as I was Al Stiefel's partner along with Marjorie, I know of what I say. Also we have used his Soni-Caps and they are very good.
I have a pair of epos 22 loudspeakers- minimalist first order crossover with an aluminum dome tweeter and woofer all designed by Robin Marshall who has a PhD in Physics and who played the bass. The sound of Epos- 22 with the big Exposure Amps and Pre-amps with two Rel-S5 subwoofers, fully spec Linn lp-12, and Linn Akurate DSM all room corrected for the bass is musicality with such palpability-the direct sound, the speed, the pace, the rhythm, the timing, the dynamics and the clarity is goose bumps- head shaking all with emotions. Robin Marshal’s design of the Epos ES-14 and Epos Es-11 where designed by ear also- not just a frequency response and ect. Did Danny listen to the Epos-12 on a truly high- end system before he tries to “improve” the sound? Maybe he should talk to Robin Marshal - PhD in Physics- who designed the loudspeakers and wrote a twenty- one page white paper explaining the designs of the Epos-14 loudspeakers with a simple first order crossover using a single capacitor. Robin Marshall had to design the tweeter and woofer in order to pull of his simple first order crossover design.
There are pros and cons to this type of design. And in this case the designer may have left a little on the table. Several issues have been overlooked. Stay tuned till next week....
Totally agree, Robin designed some great sounding speakers for Epos as well as some of the earlier Monitor Audio's. These type of designs may not be technically perfect and even sound coloured but boy do they produce great sounding music. The simplistic design of the x-over needs quality drivers to work properly but produce excellent efficiency and a very dynamic realistic live sound. I found through experimentations a few years ago this and the earlier Monitor Audio designs could be improved even further by implementing a third order Butterworth on the tweeter (2nd on the bass/mid driver) crossing at around 3.2Khz. Then by using a strut brace from left to right 2/3 of the way up the cabinet (Helped with the resonance from 450-550Hz) and careful placement and amount of acoustic foam and a little real wool wadding gave the right amount of damping. I used Ansar supersound caps which I found provided a sweet transparent sound and were better in my opinion than many expensive ones I tried. Sold them off a few years ago and regretted it ever since. Most speakers I hear these days south of £2000 sound pretty bad and are poorly made.
Hi Danny. You mentioned you would like to replace the inner wiring. What cables would you recommend not changing the character of a speaker? Hope to get answer from you. Regards Michael
We provide a high quality internal wire. You can order it from our site.
Thanks again Danny. You just explained the problem I've been dealing with designing a new setup.
The curved sides of the ATC cabinet have to help a little bit?
Kudus to Danny;-)
Very interesting to see what's inside, and the plots. There has to be a follow up!
Kudos to ATC!
I had a pair of those 602's for 18 years, replaced a tweeter when an amp discharged a cap at an inopportune time, really loved them but a woofer needed replacing, so I just changed out the entire 7.1 system, with B&W of course.
Those SCM11v2 are the best speakers I’ve heard for the price.
A very interesting video!!!! I'm not an engineer or loudspeaker expert but I really appreciate your insights and obvious expertise!!!
Any chance in presenting a list of other consumer grade speakers you like? Not sure if you've already done this.
Danny is particularly lucid in this video. I’ve been wondering if he was ever going to open up and explain how he interpreted those graphs. Thanks for being so generous Danny.
Like this: th-cam.com/video/fmcngRdm4kg/w-d-xo.html
I like the video s but I have unusual speakers old advent's. I had to replace the woofers I could not fine parts I used,12 woofers from a car part store crossover is a switch for high & low
For me a great speaker is the one that makes me FEEL the music and draws me in.
true for me screw the graph
Its the EPOS.. I was blown away by the ES14..
Finally a channel which explains the mechanics of speakers in “English”. Thank you.
I owned the previous Epos ES11 (used the same simple crossover) and they were boomy and dull in my living room, but as near-field monitors there were amazing - Very live and detailed sound, but not harsh either.... Had a shop demo of the B&W 601 in the mid 90s, and thought they were dull as hell. I can also remember the treble not integrating with the mids and standing out like a sore thumb. I had a non-audiophile mate with me and even he thought they were terrible.
I really liked the EPOS,put them on their own stands and use a warmer sounding system with plenty of power and they can shine
these are actually my speakers, and every thing you said is 100% true (rega integrated, bel cato dac). I need to make the Epos stands higher though for my seating position: which is why I sent these to Danny to begin with to see what the fall off was that I was experiencing.
But, their x-over sucks (not affiliated with Danny at all), and the 4kHz cone resonance surely sings on it's own - thankfully it's polypropylene cone that has decent self damping so it's not as agressive (smooth sounding) as better paper or kevlar, carbon fiber cones. My friends would laugh at me if I would show them something like that. I bet proper x-over around 2.5-3kHz that attenuates the cone break-up, levels tweeter a little and puts drivers into phase alignment would make into way nicer sounding spkrs.
Those B&Ws were my first set of speakers back in about 1999, and I thought they were the bees knees: they played as loud as my friend's Mission floorstanders and I used to get up close and listen to that fizzy tweeter - aged 14 that basically amounted to what we thought was more detail which was what it was all about (and volume)! Looking back it was totally weird that two kids out of 6 in a boarding house dormitory had huge speakers set up. The rest of them must have hated us.
I've been in love with that ES12 when i listened it on a friend's shop. it was on sale and ive been saving for it until someone steal that dream of mine. can't find another ES12 on sale locally until now. im aware of the ridiculously simple crossover and intrigued by how it sounds from such a simple crossover
I’m nerve really happy with uTubes suggestions of what I might like until today. I’ve watched one video this morning and learned more in that one video I wished I’d known years ago. I’ll probably be binging on GR-Research videos today. Looking forward to it tho. Probably be contacting you for some update advice on how and where to get it done. Thanks so much.
Hi Danny, I think that ATC is from their domestic hifi range, not the pro monitor, so they may have voiced them differently. Also you didn't mention the shape of the box....really interesting series...thanks
The pro equivalent of this model looks to be the SCM12 Pro. These look like the SCM11. Same drivers, but cabinet shape different.
Had and still have the EPOS ES14s, also had the ES30s for some years, now I have the ATC SCM40s. I must have good taste!!
I have owned Epos Es14s simply the best
@@gibguy5705 ES14 is fabolous! Now i purchased ES11 and will compare them...
Happy New Year! Another nice video! Am very curious what you might think about the fully iron cast Danish JERN speakers and their approach.
Thanks Danny for the xover revision help. The ATC SCM11v2 are mine. I've had them for a couple years and I enjoy their sound in my space very much. I felt they were capable of more...hence the parts upgrade. I purchased them used from a gentlemen in the UK, who upgraded to the much larger 19, for $1100 USD shipped. They retail for $2200 USD. MusicDirect has 60-day eval. There was a prior non-v2 version, pre-2013, with a different non-ATC made tweeter and rectangular cabinet. They are made for home use, not studio, and probably why the very high end is rolled off a bit. The woofer is their CLD (constrained layer damping) version unlike the 19 and above that have their SL driver. I understand the SL driver in the 19 weighs as much as the entire model 11. The tweeter is non-S spec. Same drivers are used in the all black, less expensive, SCM12Pro. I drive these with a fine BHK 250 amp and they are paired with two Rythmik L12 sealed subs. They are quite true to the recording but completely unfatiguing and hopefully remain so with the tweeter lift of 1/2-1dB. A couple of parts were missed in the return to me otherwise they be done but soon they should be up and running again. Be well everyone!
Let us know how they sound after the upgrade.
@@dannyrichie9743 At 50 hours, the clarity is startling. The highs are a bit shrill but I hope they will settle a bit with more run-in time. Of course it will take weeks to fully asses but so far, not bad. I may revert to the stock tweeter cap and resister combo if the upper end is too much or in time I may adjust (ears, setup, etc.)
@@brettb9600 The Sonicap should only improve clarity and won't give them a shrill sound. Those caps also need a good 100 to 200 hours to settle. So I'd put some time on them and hear what happens. We can also make slight adjustments to the resistors in the tweeter circuit to move the level around slightly. But burn them in well first, and then let me know what you think.
@@dannyrichie9743 120 hours and they are getting really really nice. The shrill top end is gone, the clarity is still astounding and I think they will only continue to improve. Happy! They are significantly more resolving than original.
@@dannyrichie9743 I'm still happy with the sound though the increase in treble does make poor recordings sound worse but good/proper recordings sound fantastic. I have EQ to use to tame the highs of poorly recorded or mastered '80s stuff.
It should be noted that the ATC and B&W are not the same price bracket. Thanks for all the technical information, i'm learning so much :-)
Oh of coarse, but I thought it would still be an interesting comparison.
Danny, great video, as usual, but there is two things I would love to see in the future in your vids:
1. The final, improved results of all 3 of these, along with what you did and how much it all costs.
2. Somehow if you could incorporate some kind of pointer or something on screen when you are showing and talking about all of the various response graphs, that way you can clearly point to the exact spots on the graph that you are referring to when talking about them, that way more people can clearly visualize exactly what you are talking about, as that would be especially helpful for the less technically inclined, and/or the newbies out there who are trying to learn about speakers but still don't know what everything looks like when trying to interpret all of those graphs, especially the spectral decay 3-D one!
Keep up the great work, and if you could somehow find a way to add that final above info./pointer, it would be a huge help in everyone understanding your videos better!
An interesting mix of traditional (ATC), high tech (B&W) and innovation (Epos). I would have gone for the Epos ES14 as it’s a purer version of the design. If there’s a bit of mid bass downward roll off, position the speaker next to the rear wall. Unless I’ve missed it there’s quite a bit of driver and crossover matching. Then there’s the size and scale of each of the manufacturers. I’ve still got some ES14s. They still stand up today as musical and communicative. It’s music for pleasure for me!!
I wouldn't call ATC and Epos low tech (as opposed to B&W high tech) - more like emphasizing different aspects of the speaker design.
Love your content. Keep it up. Can you do an episode maybe talking about why measurements are mostly great for speaker performance given its characteristics, compared to its true sound which is a combo of parts, and cone materials. In other words, talk about why two speakers that measure the same, could still sound very different.
Okay, I'll try to figure out a way to put that together.
I like ATC, this does not surprise me and I like tweeter rolled off a little too to help with listening fatigue so i'd leave values alone first.
Somebody made a target curve with less treble, I think it was Harman, so it could be by purpose it is like it is.
I have a vintage set of mission 781's and love them. Would be keen to hear if these could be improved :)
Cheesey?
First time viewer. I must say that the detail that this guy goes into is exceptional.
Well presented videos with all the data and graphs pasted on top of the video.
Learnt a few new things so had to subscribe.
I will browse his previous videos to see what else he covers.
Cheers
One of the best reviews I've heard on bookshelves to date
Fantastic video! Giving a lot of insights into tweaking in general and how to get in there without ruining the existing engineering. Thank you very much and Merry Christmas
Hifi is my hobby, I've owned plenty of speakers and components over 30 years. I stopped changing speakers when I bought a second hand pair of ATC's (40's). End game. Very interested in these simple upgrades but I live in Melbourne Australia and I don't know if we have guys like Danny around here.
8:40 I put ASC panels on the side walls, ceiling and wall behind speakers using a mirror on the side and ceiling and where I see the speaker seated on my chair I put a panel, in that way I kill 80% of multiple reflections creating a much better image making the speakers dissapear
Excellent video
I have sold hifi for 10 years and owned ATC for 15 years and they are under priced for what you get. The fit, finish and engineering is superb. Their drivers are second to non and sonically the easiest to sell when compared to other speakers. You do have to partner them well with good grippy amplifiers (good low volume current). I have had SCM40 MK1, SCM40 MK2, SCM40 Active and love them all. Got SCM50A on order now. Can't wait
I agree with every thing you say. I have scm 40 mk2. I use atc ca2 pre amp
P2 power amp, i would not change my system for anything.
Prior to buying my SCM20ASLs I was looking at a pair of passive 20s which I was tempted to try with one of my vintage Amcron (Crown) PA amps. Loads of current available and even the smallest one is 300Watts per channel. The biggest is 2500! I recall reading a review of a Crown DC300A used as a hifi amp and how well it performed.
@Zvonimir Komar I have used many amps but the ATC SIA2-150 and / or CA2 P1 P2 combo blow away most amplifiers and quite a few levels above the 909 and will lift the 40s to another level. I do like 909s though as I think they offer great value.
@@stephenclark5218 Excellent setup. I used to have CA2 with 2x P1 running bi amp. One P1 for bass. Going active was an all new ball game but it is also a lot of money in one go.
It amuses me that Danny thinks he knows better than the engineers at ATC regarding speaker design.
Epos ES14 is the best speakers ever made for the money!!
Hey, first of all thanks for all information you posted on your channel - it is pure 💎
I got a question for you, have you ever seen atc scm 35? Does they have same issues with thickness and crossover need to be fixed?
Good to know that my ATC11’s get a thumb up from Danny. I don’t use them as studio monitors so don’t need the 1 dB lift in the highs. May consider the rest of the upgrade though.
Thanks Danny!
Great and informative vid GR...
Thanks...
Just goes to show, pretty box, poor innards!
Another, "you get what you pay for" ...
Disappointing cabinet thickness on the ATC's though!
Frank.... UK...
EPI had a small two way with only a capacitor for blocking DC to the Tweeter. I sold the hell out of them because they were CLEAN in their presentation. It's why I've waited for a mature, inexpensive, individually amped and EQed to the drivers speaker.
What would be the upgrade to the ATCs then? Not done any DYI myself on gear, but from what you're saying, does not look expensive or difficult to do that minor upgrade. You have the 11s, I have thr 19s which has a magnet that makes the 11s look small. Sounds great.
We recommended a cap and resistor upgrade, new wiring, a set of tube connectors and a sheet of No Rez. All of that totaled $295.
@@dannyrichie9743 Sounds reasonable. I know you have the ATC SCM19 v2 in your shop, can't wait what you make of them. The woofer is something else, gigantic dust cap with a sticky tar on it and over 10kg of magnet.
I'd love to hear your opinion of the Rega RS series speaker crossover design, apparently they're quite unique!
Right a book of your knowledge please!! I’ll buy it!
I just found your channel and loving it, I know you seem to focus on speakers what about on the other side, good quality equip to buy (receiver, tuner,preamp,amp)? Is there a site one can go and see what's good and not?
Wow I've enjoy watching at the same time learning thank you .. I'll gonna subscribe
Thanks Danny
Have a set of those 602's in the garage. One needs some help. Very informative.
I had the ATC SCM20 pro and the SCM300's. I should have never sold them!
Excellent channel! Keep up the good work!
This is a general comment rather than about this vid specifically, but I only just started watching this channel and it inspired me to take a look at the crossovers in my Mission 780 speakers. The components are all cheap, and I've tried a quick experimental upgrade. All I've done is replace electrolytic caps with polypropylene caps - nothing special, just some I had lying around. And the improvement is astonishing. It's not subtle, it's jaw-dropping. It's "Wow, was that detail really there on my favourite recordings all along?" I'm going to get some good components and build whole new crossovers now. Many thanks for an excellent channel.
Were they of the same value?
@@frequentlycynical642 As close as I could get them with what I had. The originals were 15uF at 10% tolerance, and I replaced them with a 10uF and 4.7uF in parallel at 5% tolerance (and which actually measured a lot closer than 5%).
@@osliverpool Did your reply end with (and which..... ???
I'll def have to try this. A few bucks could be well spent. My speakers are almost 40 years old, so the effective capacitance may have drifted way off original.
@@frequentlycynical642 It ends "(and which actually measured a lot closer than 5%)". I think replacing your old electrolytics with film caps is well worth trying.
@@osliverpool We know that electrolytics go bad. Why a good audio rebuild includes cap replacement. I looked at a schematic for a three way crossover, as my speakers would be. Caps are used, of course, for high frequency pass through. Also, to drain high frequencies from the woofer and mid range. Why bother at the woofer?
Anyway, I can't imagine a capacitor increasing in value, so capacitor aging would probably mean mostly a loss of high frequencies going to the mid-range and tweeter.
Hopefully, while I'm off work, I'll open up my speaker cabinet and see what is in there. I've been "into" electronics for some 60 years, so I'm good with this simple project.
You did not mention the curved sides on the ATC box. This should help to minimise resonances?
Maybe a little, but not much.
@@dannyrichie9743 Will reduce standing waves / build-up inside the enclosure, no?
Would love to see you do the Polk Monitor 70 as well as the CS2 Series 11 Center Channel
I have a pair of the passive ATC SCM40, and I couldn't be happier with them. Thoroughly recommended
Why watch this channel 😅
The ATC is much more money than the other speakers. Not surprising it is better designed. I think they are around 3 thousand a pair, The others well under a thousand.
The ATC SCM11 speakers are available for £1300 GBP a pair (about $2000 USD)
Great analysis!
Would be cool to see the graphs after you finish your work
The curved design of the ATC box tends to act as a brace. It won't eliminate vibrations but the curve makes the side of the case stronger in some dimensions.
Have you posted a video with the measurements of the speakers output with and without the cheap binding posts?
I've been thinking about doing this to my Paradigm 800F tower speakers, but don't want to waste my time and money if it's just a small measurable difference that I won't hear.
wonder is it possible for manufacture(such as Focal) claimed their driver design so minimum or simple cross over is needed to sound accurate & good dynamic ;also move the cross over away from mid frq.?Thanks Danny
Really good work 👍🏽👍🏽
Fair enough. When I was on the AES Melbourne Section (Australia) committee, Billy Woodman visited and gave a presentation. It must have about 35 years ago. He passed around the legendary 5" dome mid-range driver, which had a huge motor. You needed both hands to hold it. Ever since then I have been interested to see various reviewers comment on the transparency and width of the soundstage.
Sadly Bill passed away recently a great loss to the industry and I'll remember the many times we sat and talked after a pub lunch RIP Billy.
The Epos Ess speaker has two sets of binding posts and I suspect they are designed for active crossovers and bi-amplification. The cap is probably there just for a bit of protection.
So what did I miss? Did you like any of these? I think I will stick with my AR18 circa 1980. They sound amazing and are cheap
I'm curious to see what you think of KEF speakers. I have Q150s and love em.
danny has a crossover upgrade for the q100 video on youtube
Do you do step response measurements after modification to see how the speakers behave in the time domain? Or do you think time alignment is not as important? Just curious
Danny's endorsement of the ATC, was all I needed! I am saving for those!
look into scm12 pro
I own a pair of atc scm 11
Im happy to answer any questions you might have.
@@lextr3110 SCM12 PRO is essentially as SCM11. Same drivers with I think the tweeter being the S version
@@ivorproblem1332 nah it was made long after the scm11
I have the ATC SCM19 and could compare them to the SCM11. I think you should try to get a pair of the SCM19. Bought mine used for 1500€ in Germany :-). I also added a SB-1000 subwoofer and use a Yamaha A-S1200 as an amp.
I'm wondering whether the "thin wall" construction on the ATCs are not on purpose due to it not being a ported design?
In a sealed design the box should be build stronger and padded well to withstand all the stored energy.
@@greggcheap6208 Maybe, but that does not mean they should have thick walls- look at the LS3/5a and other British sealed design monitors. All thin design on purpose.
@@greggcheap6208 If you look at Stirling Audio's website it's actually called "“lossy” cabinet design philosophy developed by BBC Research Department at Kingswood Warren."
@@LorDarkGoose
I look at speaker design through the eyes of DIY. I've never heard of purposely making a cabinet "lossy" I'm sure they know more than I do on that subject. I do wonder how that box measures during the back wave of the woofer. It just may breathe lol 😏
@@greggcheap6208 Agreed :) Same here. It seems weird but works somehow. Well- in listening anyway. Maybe has to do with how they designed it for small spaces and near field monitoring. But yes, I don't know if such things were a factor for the ATC's engineers...Keep things interesting through ! :)
First order crossovers are great cos no information is short circuited and so isn't lost. Only diminished where necessary. My snake oil. Also never resist a tweeter is my snake oil. And have the terminals of the tweeter well twisted just before the tweeter (not soldered). Just before the soldered terminals on the tweeter. My snake oil I found out by soldering the crossover on a pair of speakers I made. After that they sounded more "scratchy". So that's why I twist the tweeter wires. lol I don't listen to med driver in the box or out of the box. If you tap a driver in the box it's a warm sound. If you tap a completely open driver it will hardly make a sound and is a cold sound. But if you place the driver near the hole and the driver is semi open it will also sound warm when you tap the cone. With a bass vented speaker hole and the driver near it I get an open warm sound instead of the usual closed in warm sound. It's a sound that is different to "normal" med driver mounting. For coaxial speakers it's possible to raise the coaxial driver just above the speaker hole (with spacers) if you make a 2" deep tube running inward around the speaker hole. Surprisingly it works and sounds like any other bass vent except it's completely point source. To make a full range driver have more khz put a 1 cm hole in the dust cap and glue a 1 cm x 3mm skinny diamond shape piece of foil (with pointy ends) over the hole. The ends horizontally glued to the edges of the hole. Use coffee can seal stiff foil. It's tedious but rewarding. You will hear serious cymbals! FR not muffly!
I have a pair of ATC SCM100's I bought them over 20 years ago couldn't afford the A's but being a 3 way cab makes a massive difference, so detailed, I replaced the original tweeters with a pair of Beyma CP21F maybe not the best choice, I understand that being a slot type rotating it 90 degrees gives it a wider dispersion, this I've yet to try.
Hi, powered studio monitors could use your advice.........Roland DS50, Yamaha A7....thank you in advance
You know I never bought a brand new set of speakers. In the late 70's I went to Radio Shack and found a kit to build a speaker cabinet and I did. Filled it with 8" woofer, 4"midrange, and 3"woofer. All from Radio Shack. I loved the sound only could not get a second cabinet later to make it a pair. In the early 80's I went to a local swap Meet and found a pair of heavy speakers were the cabinets were strong. Only black wood. Guts I thought were bad and I paid $20.00. Just then someone wanted the guts, so I sold them to him for $14.00. So, technically out $6.00. I then went to a local Electronic Store that sold all kinds of parts. Sparky Electronics. I bought two each 10" woofers, 4" midrange, 3' speakers, and three way crossovers. The cabinets had great insulation and I fitted them all speakers into the cabinets. Oh, did they sound fantastic. As years went on I replaced the guts from the same place about ten years ago. This time brands were Peerless brand, I even bought out the extra 3 sets they had of tweeters. The store was closing. For when ever. The new guts again out of this world sound. I will never part with them. I later acquired my Dad's old Stereo we had done the same to his around that time. His were two-way but great sound too. His was a 1971 Pioneer receiver, Dual turntable, and DWD speakers ( they are still beautiful cabinets). I use both stereo's today. Sometimes you just have to assemble them for an ideal set of speakers.
Sorry about poor english! Danny , about B&W 602, and every two way speaker of 600 series (1,2 and 3); I'm afraid be impossible to fix the problem only by changing it's crossover!! This because Kevlar speakers are woofer, not a mid bass! I own a 601 s3 since 2004. I bought it new! I realized immediately poor hi mids ! It's original crossover have a 6dB 8a cut frequency, around 1khz, to low pass , and a 18dB 8a cut frequency to hi pass filters! There is a hole between woofer and tweeter! No mids!! I put another 2 way crossover , open a low pass filter, to 3,5 khz, but there was a terrible ressonance in hi mids!! Then , the only way to fix this speakers was change to a 3 way crossover , and add a mid range!! I put a JBL titanium drive opened, like a domo drive, without horns!! Sucess! It'a another speaker!!! Don't waste time trying to fix this speaker with 2 way crossovers!! Hugs from Brasil!
I forgot to say: the original B&W hi pass filter is a 18dB 8a 4khz cut.
A really great video! Well presented. Never thought about modifying my speakers. Thanks, greatly appreciate it. I liked and subscribed looking forward to other videos. Just curious which speaker sounded best to you?
What about nearfield response? Some speakers are only designed to be listened to on axis as monitors being directly in front of them. For me, I use small monitors 99% of the time where I am directly in the center of both speakers. And I have tower speakers if I want to fill a room with sound.
Hey Mr Richie just wanted to say that I really enjoy these type of videos Man! big fan of your work thanks for all the content and sorry for all my Michigan weather that migrated down there, really appreciate you Sir and take care.
alot of speaker upgrade reviews but it would be nice to hear any before after comparison actually ive watched a handfull of his speaker vids and have not seen or heard any speakers under load making music
I just stumbled across this video, I bought a pair of Epos Epic 2s off of CL, awhile back. One of the best speakers I've heard. I like them better than my Triangle Bro3! Sounds really, really good with my Fisher 400.
Hi Danny, enjoyed your last video with the ATC 2 ways. Have you looked at the Kef LS 50 and if so what can be improved?
I have not been sent that model yet.
Thanks for a very interesting video!
The ATC is the right size and shape to be an SCM11, from the Entry Series of the Consumer HiFi side of the range.
For completeness the gentleman here (Danny) said the others were the EPOS ES-12 and a B&W 602 s2.
[Edit: The ATC is currently available, retail is £1300 in the UK (xe tells me that a hair over $1700 USD. Others are ~20 year old models and only available 2nd hand]
so it is nothing to do with studio monitoring
@@dannyjonze the studio equivalent is their SCM12 Pro