Just a counter to the info here. As sleep inducing as his dulcet tones can be (sorry MrElwood, you do have an amazingly deep resonant voice), there's compelling argument to counter Adam and Serges' claims. th-cam.com/video/Z6BbrjI8iX8/w-d-xo.html
I've seen this debate back and forth across the internet. Feng from InMotion cleared up the air in the EUCO forum and said that both the V11 and V12 have passive cell balancing.
Not sure this information is really true. I was looking at V12HT BMS, and yes, there is not the common resistor array for passive balancing. But passive balancing can be implemented in other ways. Ninebot One E BMS, in example, has passive balancing implemented inside the BMS chips, not as external resistor. So, IMHO, here we need a confirmation or an explanation from the manufacturer.
all inmotion wheels do have passive cell balancing, and this is not just false information, but is extremely defamatory to the inmotion branding and could cause a lot of brand damage based off of completely false information
When I charge my V8F, the LED on the stock charger changes from red to green once the charging current drops below 400 mA. The only groups of resistors on V8|V10|... BMS boards are 1000 ohms, which if they are used for balancing, translates into a balancing discharge current of 4.2 mA. With a charger at well over 100 mA, this only reduces the charge to 95+mA, and a higher voltage group of cells will reach overvoltage and shutdown all charging. This is happens on my V8F. I see the LED turn green, and about 10 minutes later, the V8F stops all charging due to overvoltage of one or more cell pairs, which is the same issue shown in this video.
I am not satisfied. Someone should really solve this confusion by analysing the inmotion BMS board. I can clearly see a resistor array with some ICs. Someone should look what these ICs are if possible. If not it is still possible to analyse the scheme. It would solve this confusion for all.
I was planning to buy a V11 until I watched this video and then I started considering other options. But wait ... here is a counter-argument to the assertion that InMotion does not include passive cell balancing in their EUCs. Adam, please respond to ensure that people are getting good information, one way or the other. Thank you. th-cam.com/video/Z6BbrjI8iX8/w-d-xo.html
The V13 stops charging when the First cell reaches 4.185-volts. Eventually after many charge cycles all the cells should be approximately the same (4.185-volts). Therefore never expect to see the V13 above 125-volts and often it will be between 123 and 125 volts. I learned this after talking with one of the Inmotion engineers. I don't have any specific insight into their previous wheels. FYI
fascinating, perhaps slow charging the last few percent could allow slower cells to catch up . Holding charge voltage at 99:% for 10 minutes lets say, just making suggestions, eh maybe i trigger an idea. One big narrly cell, ha, curves over the wheel ha, that was a joke. 2 maybe. 4 ha.
"Eventually after many charge cycles, all the cells should be approximately the same." How would this work? I understand an individual cell with a higher voltage could output more current but these cells are in series (and then groups in parallel) with no standalone cells in parallel. So I'm not sure how all the cells would converge to ~4.185 V after many charge-discharge cycles... 😵💫
For anyone into rc using electrical motors, balancing battery packs is basic stuff as well as the benefits of storage charge of Li-ion and Li-po cells. Happy to see a knowledgeable tech person like Serge educate us all on these issues. Also, to have a pro like Serge here in Finland would be great. We could really use a EUC repair shop with professionals like him here too. And let me also say I really enjoy the technically minded, hands-on vids, by WrongWay. DIY vids like taking apart AND putting together EUC:s are very interesting even for wheels I will never own myself. Keep up the good work you two.🙏 I’m no expert on big EUC battery packs nor on the structure of these wheels, but I love to learn more.
i have a old V10 (not a v10f), iv always ran it down to between 20 to 40% before charging back to 100%, its around 5yrs old now with around 4 thousand miles on the clock and it still charges to full (around 85v) and performs just the same as the 1st day i bought it
@@milordas maybe so but iv been riding pevs for nearly 8/9 yrs now and iv not seen many if any pev let alone eucs with that kinda mileage (20-40k) on them and iv seen plenty of eucs that have developed battery problems well below 5k mileage.
Yes, probably there are many such positive cases which does not mean that passive cell balancing is not important. I sold my Ks16s with 5200 kilometrage to the guy which had V10f and had a battery problem leading to a faceplant. He was not lucky to have ideal pack of cells.
The resistors aren't balancing the pack the resistors are allowing/resisting current when the cell creeps up to 4.2v to stop each cell from over charging..... TBH in a EUC its not really essential to have a "SMART" BMS its great to look at those cells individually and to have have the cells balance but the truth is if all cells are charged from the beginning and are all in close range they should alll come down together and be very close the only cells that will usually drop (if the cells arent failing and bad anyway) are the ones being used first :) I agree with you though in this day and age we should have individual cell balancing we have been doing it in the RC world forever.
Happened on my inmotion v8. After 7000+km, it started shutting off aggressively at 30-40% battery. I opened the whole thing up, tested the voltage of each battery pair with a multimeter, found 2 pairs that were lower than the rest of the pack, charged them up all the way, waited for a day to see they would still hold a charge, they did, then down back to the where the rest of the pack was, and it solved the problem. idk how long until the problem appears again. It's not fun to disassemble the battery, it's time consuming, dangerous, you need a solder iron, some tools, decent knowledge of 18650, and so on. Wish the BMS on the v8 was less dumb. There's a video on YT of some Indian looking dude doing similar maintenance to the battery of a newer model, very similar stuff and very helpful to know what to expect at each step of the way. His pack had dead cells. Mine were simply outbalanced.
One thing you left out, passive cell balancing has its limitations. Using the stock charger you are unlikely to have problems, but if you use a fast charger, the passive balancing will be overwhelmed resulting in cells in an unbalanced pack being overcharge, or the charger switching off prematurely leaving weaker cells short of 100%. I would never charge to 100% on a fast charger. An indication that this may have happened is if the pack voltage settles back after charging, this would be the BMS passive balancing, addressing the overcharged cells after the charger has been removed.
@@kthejung no matter how fast you charging, important how long you keep charger plugged after green light comes 120om resistors that are on sherman bms can balance 126mAh per hour
@@kthejung Yes two stock chargers would be an equivalent of a fast charger. If you are going to charge to 100% I would remove one of them for perhaps the last 10% of the charge.
That's plainly false informations. MrElwood debunked this myth. It is due to bad translation, inmotion engineers responded besides the point. I'm very surprised the BMS expert your brought (which I'm sure is a nice guy) didn't disassemble one to check. They have cell balancing. Passive and resistor based, true, dumb as one bms can be, but they all have it. How the hell did the community understand something that wrongly ?
Wouldn't it just be great if they could include what's arguably the most important PEV safety feature in wheels in 2023? It's a long ways away, I guess. Not like Kingsong has been doing it for nearly a decade or anything.
The first misconception in this topic is the use of “CELL” implying that BMS balances each cell. The reality is it is only balancing each “Parallel” group of in a pack. Eg. a pack is 100.8v this means there are 24 pcs. Of 4.2v cell in the series to make 100.8v ( simple division) if the pack uses only 24 pcs of cells then each cell is monitored and balanced by the BMS. This is the best example and also what most think of. The problem here is this is not true for EUC. in the example a pack with only 24 cells in series will only have about 360 watts of power, most battery packs of 100.8 volts exceed this power (wattage) rating which means there are more cells in the pack. Where are they? They are attached in parallel to each of the 24 battery in series thus increasing the ampere hour of the pack. The reality is there may be 3 or more cells in parallel and all the parallels are 24 groups that are in series (it is actually a battery pack within a big battery pack) and the total voltage is 100.8v but since there are many cells in each of the 24 series the amperage is multiplied. Given this, the BMS only monitors 24 groups in series. If in each of the 24 there are 4 cells, the BMS thinks there is only 1 and monitoring if it reaches 4.2v. If one cell out of the 4cells in the parallel is overcharged and the 3 other is low charged the group stops charging because BMS detects full charge of 4.2 volts despite some cells are undercharged. The next biggest misconception is that these electronics are “Quality Engineered” they are off the rack systems, their smart BMS are blind on a per cell level monitoring and if one cell is defective in each of that 24 series in the example it will just explode and the BMS has no idea or control of it. After full charge you check the batteries and it has decreased? Because the the 4 cells in this example are in parallel… there are fully charged cells in the parallel and there are lower charged and since they are in parallel the maxed charged cell will charge the undercharged cell until they equalize/average… then when you look at your charge it is only 99.8v or 100.1 v -- or lower if the cells have extreme internal resistance
but do you know that cells in parallel charging from each other? its enough to charge one cell, and after some time voltage balances automaticaly without any bms and distributes between each cell in parallel. Ofc if you have one deffective cell in parralel, you'll get less Ah of total group, but thats not about charging and balansing
@@milordas yes, if liCells are in parallel they will equalize by charging each other… they are not “balancing” each other in the technical BMS sense, what is actually happening is that the cell with high voltage has higher electrical potential to flow to the cells that has lower voltage. The battery cells are simple… if the voltage is low any power that connects to it that is higher voltage will cause it to charge. In that sense a low charged cell will charge from a fully charged cell. The cell with higher charge will slowly lose its charge until the cells in that parallel is equal… it is like a water tank the water level will normalize once the wave stops. In that sense they balance themselves in that group of cells under parallel. This is only true for cells in parallel, if the cells are connected in series the BMS handles the “balancing” of the cells under that series configuration. BMS balance is a higher level where a chip looks at each group in a series and checks if all their voltage has reached 4.2 then the charging in that specific series stops and if that particular group of cells exceeds not only will the charge stop, it will start to drain it using the resistor for that group until it goes below 4.2v then it starts charging again along with other groups in series until all of them finishes at 4.2 volts.. this is the reason why balancing takes a long time even tho it is only balancing a millivolt range because the 24 groups in series are constantly charging then other groups will discharge a little to give time for other groups to fill up and catch up then start the process all over. Professional BMS even has “Heatsink” installed to dissipate heat when discharging an over charged group so the resistors will not burn overtime… EUC BMS don’t have heatsink and has big battery pack, that is why when you look at old pack the shrink wrap have holes or some burnt sections. If all the cells have same “internal Resistance” all cells will charge and finish at same time. This is the reason why battery cells are “supposed to be” screened to have same internal resistance rating…. Original batteries are screened individually from factory to have tight internal resistance, fake battery is the problem that is causing charging problems.
Really enjoyed the video guys, I discovered the different types of BMS systems that are available, when I was having new battery packs made up for my Gotway Nicola Plus. Tempted by the idea of a smart BMS for the Nicola, however, thorough testing of the existing BMS turned out to be okay. May wait until the time comes to order a third battery pack! 😎Keep up the great work! 🙏
do not forget, smart bms have constant power draw from your battery. So leaving it for long time would be deadly for battery. Or somewhere it have switch to power off it
Very nice video. Would be nice that inmotion would start making bms for v12 with passive cell balancing. Too bad it not as easy to replace as driver board or MB. Also love that Serg offers help! I am From Lithuania and will definitely contact him in case my v12 battery goes bad (hope that will not happen).
So if you are not wrong, during the time the overall battery pack voltage has to drop down. But mine V12HT after 2300km still has the same 100% voltage like when it was new one. Wow miracle... What about other Inmotion riders, is your full charge voltage lower than it used to be? Anyway smart BMS should be standard in such expensive devices, even old cheap Xiaomi scooter from 2018 has it...
Good vid. I was under the impression V13 did have a smart BMS. Inmotion is really taking us for a ride to the dollar store on this wheel. They kept advertising the safest on the market. If smart BMS is the safest form than they lied. More to the point that you indicated, for the price of this wheel, it should be there! Cheers
And people are really believing them too. Part of it comes from the reviewers who get these free wheels sing praises but in the longterm wheel has an issue they ignore. I remember the safest wheel V12 was faced with cut outs
Either one of the biggest PLEV manufacturers lies and their battery packs usually last much longer than they should, or WrongWay & Co. are mistaken. Which one is more likely?
a smart bms can infact be the safest, technically it can tell the controller how low cells are getting and thus reduce the current if some cells are getting too low
@@BH4x0r No, a Smart BMS (or any kind of BMS) doesn’t tell the controller to reduce the current. That would no longer be a self-balancing vehicle. It has to use the amount of current that the rider asks for. Otherwise the wheel no longer stays upright. Also, it doesn’t take a “Smart BMS” to be able to monitor the cell group voltages. All EUCs do that. What we now call a “Smart BMS” is just one that reports these voltages all the way to the user.
I have watched your VODs for ages and can say for the most part they are great. Good to see you continue to pass on the knowledge and educate the community. In saying that making VODs calling out brands for what they should have done for “Decades” isn’t going to win you any points with them and likely confuse some other newer riders. Your stance on Begode / Inmotion could be construed as confusing when making purchases. Are these wheel outright dangerous or should you just be aware what you get when you buy. It’s like buying a bike this one come with these features / this one doesn’t. In some cases calling out a manufacturer for something that is outright dangerous Is welcome and warranted but I would ask as a influencer you need to strike the balance, not saying you haven’t but it might be worth reflecting on who your target audience is for these VODs. Only my opinion. keep it up and thanks for interesting content.
Exactly my point, people listen to influencers like him. If he wants to change the way they work better provide constructive feedback. Someone has too lol.
So from what I have seen Begode Masters tend to not reach the full 134.4. I've seen many riders with this issue even after swapping to a new charge board. Does that mean they are not passively balancing?
It maybe that the charger is not accurately set to 134.4 or it may be the passive balancing, either way I wouldn't worry to much. If the battery pack is 4V or more below its rated voltage after a full charge, then that would indicate a problem. The likely cause failed cells within a pack. Time to open the machine and check the battery packs of the machine individually with a meter. Do not ride a machine with failed cells, and do not charge it any further either.
Useful stuff if you own an Inmotion EUC. Could you maybe also include an email contact for Serg for anyone that might want to get their battery repaired by him?
Very informative about EUC batteries and what passive balancing is. Now does the V12 have passive balancing? This should be on all Inmotion wheels. Sergio should become the “EUC know it all” like there’s an “FPV know it all” aka Joshua Bardwell.
we can also talk about the inmotion motherboard which sometimes does not know how to interpret the correct battery voltage? Everything is bad at inmotion regarding the battery and battery management...
initially i questioned the idea of discharge top to have other cells catch up, but connecting all the cells is a pain, connecting all cells which i can imagine for this market of transport a special battery could be made, one big sucker per side or bigger fewer batteries could be individually managed. cause i was thinking discharge into cell next door for charging to not loose house power from discharging a cell waiting on some other slow cell to catch up, but yeah. Theres some nice new batteries poping up, "smiles", i wonder how close we are to a 10,000 WH euc at the same size and weight. oh its got to charge in, 2 hours, half an hour oh wait, uh sounds ages, a minute, ha. eh nice to dream of affording it ha. oh yeah its cheaper? yeah lets dream its cheaper ha.
Ok,ok but why u guys dont explain to the people the fact that balancing and fast charging is not a bigger concern than big discharging rate because of agresive Rider style? When a Rider start to ride very agressive the A is going up like crazy..like 80--98 A how we seen already at V13... 80A at 120V mean 10KW.. 98A at 120V means more than 10KW peak power provided by manufacturer..do u think that 100A its ok for that motor? Yea,the motor will survive,but the battery stress is so fcking hard..that it will destroy the cells. Just remember that li ion cells are chemical based..how safe do you think is to discharge 3000 Wh battery with 100A discharge rate?how long time u can run 10KW peak motor on 3KW battery? Has anyone seen that after a ride..when u stop at 30% and just make a half hour breake..the battery will be more fresh and u get a bit more autonomy than when u ride all battery at tine? The explanation is that chemical inside cell have some time to rest-regenerate..and when u will start another ride they will be fresh.. How V13 battery will be afer of riding V13 at very high speed...and fast acceleration from 40 to 80-90A? What do u think happen inside every cell? It needs only one cell who maybe is a bit weak from hidden manufactury mistake...we know that everything is made can have a rate of few % of scrap rate..just read about that on internet.. some of them are finded by manufacturer test but some of them are just hidden..the parameters look ok but when they will be used in normal or high capacity they will fall... And If one cell fall...that cell put pressure to the neighbour cells..untill another one will fall..
High discharge through aggressive riding can cause voltage sag on the battery (and cutout). Depending on the batteries you can expect 10A continuous output on a cell (times the number of cells in parallel). My S18 for example has cells arranged in 20 serial and 3 parallel. After 30A although the batteries are capable of supplying 14A for short periods, voltage sag is going to be significant (very significant). Voltage sag is a vicious circle, requiring the batteries to provide even more current for the same power (Watts =Volts x Amps). Equally very high currents will be required for heavy acceleration, or steep inclines at low speeds this puts high strain on components such as the FET's in the control board. Batteries are a chemical reaction, cold will slow this process both in charging and discharging. If high demand is put on a battery this chemical process will continue for a short time after demand ceases and the battery voltage will partially recover. Weak batteries. There are different problems with batteries, batteries can leak there charge away in time, batteries can loose their capacity normally through charge discharge cycles, batteries can develop high internal resistance reducing the current they can produce on demand. These problems can appear separately, or in combination. If a cell, group of cells, is at a lower voltage in the pack through any these problems then as the pack is discharged its voltage is going to fall the furthest. If a cell goes below 2V, then this is bad for the cell anyway. If the wheel is used in such a case that cell may go to zero under load, or may even see current reversal from the other cells. This is instant death for a lithium battery. Lithium batteries normally fail as a short circuit. Anyone measuring the pack would see the pack at least 4v below its rated value even when charged. SInce cells are in parallel groups of 3,4,6 even 8 cells a shorted cell shorts out its neighbours. In most instances all the cells in that group will be at the same low voltage but if a cell was to fail catastrophically say as the result of overcharging a fire through shorting its neighbouring cells could easily be the result.
Hahhaaa thats how it would look like if I would speek next to you hahahaa... I could barely bring out a word... nicce video again... a bit comedy style... 😅😅👏👏😍
Is it possible to talke about very bad charger inmotion, the voltage goes down sometimes lower, sometimes higher... Is the electronics in question or is it the potentiometer in the charger, which causes this problem?
In general, should the charger be left plugged in longer once the maximum voltage has been reached (green diode) for the cells to be balanced? Or should it be disconnected immediately to avoid a risk of cell overvoltage (if the charge lasts a long time)?
This is more about cell longevity. Every say 5 charges or more it’s good to leave the EUC balancing (when green diode is there - keep charging. In usual usecase if you also don’t need the range it’s best to not fully charge but leave at 80-90%
@@mr_wrongway yes, if you charge to 100% battery cell lifecycle is about 300-500 cycles, but if you charge to 80-90% you can increase your battery life for 1000-2000 cycles
@@milordasUnfortunately, 80% charging has been a major cause for EUC battery packs failing early: Electric Unicycle: 80% Charging, Good or Bad? th-cam.com/video/pgr7-b3eBm0/w-d-xo.html
Apparently there is no passive cell balancing on my V8F. Leaving the stock charger connected for more than 10 minutes after the LED goes green will end up with one of the cell groups reaching overvoltage, shutting down all charging, and afterwards, the pack slowly discharges due to the small amount of current used to drive blue tooth and other circuitry.
I heard that I have to wait until the charger turns green then wait 1-2 hours later to stop it in order for it to properly balance..would this be correct? I have KS18XL
Theres a new plastic battery weighs 6x less, i could be right or not. discharges faster, eh its a bit expensive right now but sounds like euc stuff to me. Its all recycled material apparently, could get cheap fast who knows, eh i'm just pleased the wheel i've got goes at all, oh yeah.
If Begode has "passive balancing " then why does the Master continue to have unbalanced packs?...even in the newest charge port iteration?...even with a charger pumping out the correct 134.4v?
That’s because begode is begode :D they have dead pack right out of the box. My MSP even though this model had other issues, had perfectly balanced pack after 4000km
@@mr_wrongway I guess...but they use Samsung 50E cells that are CE certified. Samsung is an international legit manufacturer...they should not have dead / dying packs.
The correct answer is because the 134v are no “real” 134v. It are on each side 67,2 plus 67,2 and each of THOSE is balanaced. BUT the 67,2 plus 67,2 isnt checked if both are on the same voltage. thats why the packs MAY differ a beat
Repost: Internal resistance is important as it varies by approximately %15 within a production batch unless batteries are well sorted. This difference is hard to balance as state of charge (think accumulated milliamp hours)ends up higher in a lower voltage cell with lower internal resistance. When bypassing a higher V cell ACTIVE balancing continues to raise the state of charge of the lower resistance cell as state of charge is not voltage and we work from the voltage reading. Another Key concept, capacity imbalance affects voltage difference less than charge imbalance making cell voltage as a poor measurement for capacity imbalance. While voltage deviation at high SOC is less imbalanced at low SOC (think discharged battery)the imbalance is higher so active balancing must be (i’m no battery expert) at the lower state of charge condition while passive balancing relies on charging to 100 percent and a good way to do this is slow charging from 98% to 100%. What to take away is that active balancing is not all that. No balancing algorithm can be affective against impedance mismatch. Also, capacity imbalance is not measured by voltage imbalance so if I understand what I have found written up in battery literature I would guess passive balancing is better than active as active is likely to do more damage ->> in capacity imbalance or impedance differences the cell voltage differences are not enough to base the balancing. Even more importantly consider that if active balancing is not working as the above indicates then the balancing will get worse and degrading will accelerate each time you charge especially if balancing occurs during charge and discharge the active balancing turns bypass on. Best active balancing charge, I read, is one where problems with balance are lessor if balancing only takes place at end of charge (as IR effects are less as current is lower meaning the internal resistance has less impact on battery voltage reading). Note that passive balancing takes place at the top end (SOC is about 95%). No balance needed IF …All the problems with balance can be avoided by not charging to more than 90% or discharging to too low such as min 10%.
Inmotion, hear that and fix it, please... It would be great to have Smart bms like JK bms with Active balansing. That would be great :) But sadly (imo) its not fit programmaticaly by Wheel bios, as its mainboard monitors battery in some way. But passive balansing is a must,- everyone knows, who knows a basic electric knowledge and have any euc.
Subscriber and I watch most of your videos on TH-cam from Kenya. Got me to be interested in electric unicycles. If in future you ever have a give away of an electric unicycle that can be charged by a 240 volts electric outlet (that is the voltage in electrical sockets in Kenya), I would like to claim that, apply for that and be considered for such a giveaway, thanks.
implementing cell balancing, on the bms only costs $1...for inmotion! After that is not possible because there is not enough space to do it ourselves...your security costs less than $1 for inmotion...
@@omidel. relax it was in 2020. I was sick of my V5f. It was a learning wheel. I bought it for 666 euro and I put more than 500 km on it. The devil may have it...or the cops.
![ILLSLICK - KILLSHOT REMIX [FULL VERSION]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/RIK8RrqIAzE/mqdefault.jpg)
Just a counter to the info here. As sleep inducing as his dulcet tones can be (sorry MrElwood, you do have an amazingly deep resonant voice), there's compelling argument to counter Adam and Serges' claims.
th-cam.com/video/Z6BbrjI8iX8/w-d-xo.html
I've seen this debate back and forth across the internet. Feng from InMotion cleared up the air in the EUCO forum and said that both the V11 and V12 have passive cell balancing.
Not sure this information is really true. I was looking at V12HT BMS, and yes, there is not the common resistor array for passive balancing. But passive balancing can be implemented in other ways. Ninebot One E BMS, in example, has passive balancing implemented inside the BMS chips, not as external resistor. So, IMHO, here we need a confirmation or an explanation from the manufacturer.
all inmotion wheels do have passive cell balancing, and this is not just false information, but is extremely defamatory to the inmotion branding and could cause a lot of brand damage based off of completely false information
When I charge my V8F, the LED on the stock charger changes from red to green once the charging current drops below 400 mA. The only groups of resistors on V8|V10|... BMS boards are 1000 ohms, which if they are used for balancing, translates into a balancing discharge current of 4.2 mA. With a charger at well over 100 mA, this only reduces the charge to 95+mA, and a higher voltage group of cells will reach overvoltage and shutdown all charging. This is happens on my V8F. I see the LED turn green, and about 10 minutes later, the V8F stops all charging due to overvoltage of one or more cell pairs, which is the same issue shown in this video.
I am not satisfied. Someone should really solve this confusion by analysing the inmotion BMS board. I can clearly see a resistor array with some ICs. Someone should look what these ICs are if possible. If not it is still possible to analyse the scheme. It would solve this confusion for all.
A spreadsheet showing the BMS type of all the popular wheels would be an awesome reference sheet for the future!
I like this video - from the cool robo voicing to seeing your buddy Serge who is usually behind the camera sharing additional details.
I was planning to buy a V11 until I watched this video and then I started considering other options. But wait ... here is a counter-argument to the assertion that InMotion does not include passive cell balancing in their EUCs. Adam, please respond to ensure that people are getting good information, one way or the other. Thank you.
th-cam.com/video/Z6BbrjI8iX8/w-d-xo.html
I love Serge we need to see him more
The V13 stops charging when the First cell reaches 4.185-volts. Eventually after many charge cycles all the cells should be approximately the same (4.185-volts). Therefore never expect to see the V13 above 125-volts and often it will be between 123 and 125 volts. I learned this after talking with one of the Inmotion engineers. I don't have any specific insight into their previous wheels. FYI
Hi newbie here, I am wondering what’s the relationship between the number 123V-125V here and Kingsong’s 126V S22？Why Kingsong is 126 V？
fascinating, perhaps slow charging the last few percent could allow slower cells to catch up
. Holding charge voltage at 99:% for 10 minutes lets say, just making suggestions, eh maybe i trigger an idea.
One big narrly cell, ha, curves over the wheel ha, that was a joke. 2 maybe. 4 ha.
"Eventually after many charge cycles, all the cells should be approximately the same."
How would this work? I understand an individual cell with a higher voltage could output more current but these cells are in series (and then groups in parallel) with no standalone cells in parallel. So I'm not sure how all the cells would converge to ~4.185 V after many charge-discharge cycles... 😵💫
@@schro265 That's the function of a smart BMS - to balance the cells over time.
@@schro265 4.185V is tension 5000mah is capacity. Only capacity is spent with cycles of a cell battery
For anyone into rc using electrical motors, balancing battery packs is basic stuff as well as the benefits of storage charge of Li-ion and Li-po cells. Happy to see a knowledgeable tech person like Serge educate us all on these issues. Also, to have a pro like Serge here in Finland would be great. We could really use a EUC repair shop with professionals like him here too. And let me also say I really enjoy the technically minded, hands-on vids, by WrongWay. DIY vids like taking apart AND putting together EUC:s are very interesting even for wheels I will never own myself. Keep up the good work you two.🙏 I’m no expert on big EUC battery packs nor on the structure of these wheels, but I love to learn more.
i have a old V10 (not a v10f), iv always ran it down to between 20 to 40% before charging back to 100%, its around 5yrs old now with around 4 thousand miles on the clock and it still charges to full (around 85v) and performs just the same as the 1st day i bought it
If your wheel charges to its full voltage before charging stops, then that's a very positive sign to the health of your batteries 🙂
Same here, except over 5,000 miles. Always charges to 100%.
4000 is nothing for euc, better look after 20-40k and compare. For battery cycle life 4000 is only 1/3 of battery life capacity at most
@@milordas maybe so but iv been riding pevs for nearly 8/9 yrs now and iv not seen many if any pev let alone eucs with that kinda mileage (20-40k) on them and iv seen plenty of eucs that have developed battery problems well below 5k mileage.
Yes, probably there are many such positive cases which does not mean that passive cell balancing is not important. I sold my Ks16s with 5200 kilometrage to the guy which had V10f and had a battery problem leading to a faceplant. He was not lucky to have ideal pack of cells.
The resistors aren't balancing the pack the resistors are allowing/resisting current when the cell creeps up to 4.2v to stop each cell from over charging..... TBH in a EUC its not really essential to have a "SMART" BMS its great to look at those cells individually and to have have the cells balance but the truth is if all cells are charged from the beginning and are all in close range they should alll come down together and be very close the only cells that will usually drop (if the cells arent failing and bad anyway) are the ones being used first :) I agree with you though in this day and age we should have individual cell balancing we have been doing it in the RC world forever.
Well done. Nice to see you use your platform to help your buddies too.
Oh yeah!
Serg is a great euc technician. We are happy to have him right now in Warsaw...
Would be cool to see tech video how Serg manualy balancing inmo v10f battery. Greeting's from Kyiv. Serge, we are missing your EUC workshop in Kyiv !
Happened on my inmotion v8. After 7000+km, it started shutting off aggressively at 30-40% battery. I opened the whole thing up, tested the voltage of each battery pair with a multimeter, found 2 pairs that were lower than the rest of the pack, charged them up all the way, waited for a day to see they would still hold a charge, they did, then down back to the where the rest of the pack was, and it solved the problem. idk how long until the problem appears again. It's not fun to disassemble the battery, it's time consuming, dangerous, you need a solder iron, some tools, decent knowledge of 18650, and so on. Wish the BMS on the v8 was less dumb. There's a video on YT of some Indian looking dude doing similar maintenance to the battery of a newer model, very similar stuff and very helpful to know what to expect at each step of the way. His pack had dead cells. Mine were simply outbalanced.
I love your videos Adam, but this needs updating, as it is incorrect, all INMOTION wheels have BMS, it’s just the V13 has smart BMS.
I’m still investigating this one, I need to make a video on this soon
One thing you left out, passive cell balancing has its limitations. Using the stock charger you are unlikely to have problems, but if you use a fast charger, the passive balancing will be overwhelmed resulting in cells in an unbalanced pack being overcharge, or the charger switching off prematurely leaving weaker cells short of 100%. I would never charge to 100% on a fast charger. An indication that this may have happened is if the pack voltage settles back after charging, this would be the BMS passive balancing, addressing the overcharged cells after the charger has been removed.
What about if you use 2 stock chargers. Is this enough to mess it up also?
@@kthejung no matter how fast you charging, important how long you keep charger plugged after green light comes
120om resistors that are on sherman bms can balance 126mAh per hour
Passive cell balancing is not intended to function while charging is taking place.
@@kthejung Yes two stock chargers would be an equivalent of a fast charger. If you are going to charge to 100% I would remove one of them for perhaps the last 10% of the charge.
@@snoopdoggthecertifiedg6777 Passive cell balancing will take place at anytime a cell voltage is at the trigger point at which it takes place.
Would it be possible for Serg to give us some tips on how to get into repairing electronics and electric wheels? Great video btw!
That's plainly false informations. MrElwood debunked this myth. It is due to bad translation, inmotion engineers responded besides the point. I'm very surprised the BMS expert your brought (which I'm sure is a nice guy) didn't disassemble one to check. They have cell balancing. Passive and resistor based, true, dumb as one bms can be, but they all have it. How the hell did the community understand something that wrongly ?
Wouldn't it just be great if they could include what's arguably the most important PEV safety feature in wheels in 2023? It's a long ways away, I guess. Not like Kingsong has been doing it for nearly a decade or anything.
Sometimes programable charger for RC models can be blessing .
The special effects in this video are mind-blowing. I need to see corridor do a vfx breakdown
There's so much confusion in the comment section below... The community definitely needs a thorough and in-depth bms video
The first misconception in this topic is the use of “CELL” implying that BMS balances each cell. The reality is it is only balancing each “Parallel” group of in a pack. Eg. a pack is 100.8v this means there are 24 pcs. Of 4.2v cell in the series to make 100.8v ( simple division) if the pack uses only 24 pcs of cells then each cell is monitored and balanced by the BMS. This is the best example and also what most think of. The problem here is this is not true for EUC. in the example a pack with only 24 cells in series will only have about 360 watts of power, most battery packs of 100.8 volts exceed this power (wattage) rating which means there are more cells in the pack. Where are they? They are attached in parallel to each of the 24 battery in series thus increasing the ampere hour of the pack.
The reality is there may be 3 or more cells in parallel and all the parallels are 24 groups that are in series (it is actually a battery pack within a big battery pack) and the total voltage is 100.8v but since there are many cells in each of the 24 series the amperage is multiplied.
Given this, the BMS only monitors 24 groups in series. If in each of the 24 there are 4 cells, the BMS thinks there is only 1 and monitoring if it reaches 4.2v. If one cell out of the 4cells in the parallel is overcharged and the 3 other is low charged the group stops charging because BMS detects full charge of 4.2 volts despite some cells are undercharged.
The next biggest misconception is that these electronics are “Quality Engineered” they are off the rack systems, their smart BMS are blind on a per cell level monitoring and if one cell is defective in each of that 24 series in the example it will just explode and the BMS has no idea or control of it.
After full charge you check the batteries and it has decreased? Because the the 4 cells in this example are in parallel… there are fully charged cells in the parallel and there are lower charged and since they are in parallel the maxed charged cell will charge the undercharged cell until they equalize/average… then when you look at your charge it is only 99.8v or 100.1 v -- or lower if the cells have extreme internal resistance
but do you know that cells in parallel charging from each other? its enough to charge one cell, and after some time voltage balances automaticaly without any bms and distributes between each cell in parallel. Ofc if you have one deffective cell in parralel, you'll get less Ah of total group, but thats not about charging and balansing
@@milordas yes, if liCells are in parallel they will equalize by charging each other… they are not “balancing” each other in the technical BMS sense, what is actually happening is that the cell with high voltage has higher electrical potential to flow to the cells that has lower voltage. The battery cells are simple… if the voltage is low any power that connects to it that is higher voltage will cause it to charge. In that sense a low charged cell will charge from a fully charged cell. The cell with higher charge will slowly lose its charge until the cells in that parallel is equal… it is like a water tank the water level will normalize once the wave stops. In that sense they balance themselves in that group of cells under parallel. This is only true for cells in parallel, if the cells are connected in series the BMS handles the “balancing” of the cells under that series configuration.
BMS balance is a higher level where a chip looks at each group in a series and checks if all their voltage has reached 4.2 then the charging in that specific series stops and if that particular group of cells exceeds not only will the charge stop, it will start to drain it using the resistor for that group until it goes below 4.2v then it starts charging again along with other groups in series until all of them finishes at 4.2 volts.. this is the reason why balancing takes a long time even tho it is only balancing a millivolt range because the 24 groups in series are constantly charging then other groups will discharge a little to give time for other groups to fill up and catch up then start the process all over. Professional BMS even has “Heatsink” installed to dissipate heat when discharging an over charged group so the resistors will not burn overtime… EUC BMS don’t have heatsink and has big battery pack, that is why when you look at old pack the shrink wrap have holes or some burnt sections.
If all the cells have same “internal Resistance” all cells will charge and finish at same time. This is the reason why battery cells are “supposed to be” screened to have same internal resistance rating…. Original batteries are screened individually from factory to have tight internal resistance, fake battery is the problem that is causing charging problems.
Really enjoyed the video guys, I discovered the different types of BMS systems that are available, when I was having new battery packs made up for my Gotway Nicola Plus. Tempted by the idea of a smart BMS for the Nicola, however, thorough testing of the existing BMS turned out to be okay. May wait until the time comes to order a third battery pack! 😎Keep up the great work! 🙏
I have a nik 2700wh with Daly smart bms.
@@omidel. my nikola have ant bms and 6P p42a
@@arturslapins5595nice.. if you have black MB ...go get the Freestyler PMW firmware
@@omidel. i have the costum firmware
do not forget, smart bms have constant power draw from your battery. So leaving it for long time would be deadly for battery. Or somewhere it have switch to power off it
Is there a manual balancing guide somewhere for V10Fs? That'd be interesting
Great and refreshing video, great job guys
Thanks guys.
Very nice video. Would be nice that inmotion would start making bms for v12 with passive cell balancing. Too bad it not as easy to replace as driver board or MB. Also love that Serg offers help! I am From Lithuania and will definitely contact him in case my v12 battery goes bad (hope that will not happen).
both the v12 and v11 use passice cell balacing
th-cam.com/video/Z6BbrjI8iX8/w-d-xo.html&ab_channel=mrelwoodEUC
Serg Proskurka u r cool men 🤙🏼😁 good job there
So if you are not wrong, during the time the overall battery pack voltage has to drop down. But mine V12HT after 2300km still has the same 100% voltage like when it was new one. Wow miracle... What about other Inmotion riders, is your full charge voltage lower than it used to be?
Anyway smart BMS should be standard in such expensive devices, even old cheap Xiaomi scooter from 2018 has it...
My v10f charges to 83, 65 v with 3.600 km on it, and this the same voltage for At least , 3000km, so far so good
3800 km here on my v12 ht and charges to full no problem.
7000km on a V11, charges to full and has range like when it was new.
@@mrelwood_EUC sure this video from WW is nonsense.
On the Leaperkim BMS board, what is the resistance of each of those 12 resistors, how many ohms for each resistor?
Good vid.
I was under the impression V13 did have a smart BMS. Inmotion is really taking us for a ride to the dollar store on this wheel. They kept advertising the safest on the market. If smart BMS is the safest form than they lied. More to the point that you indicated, for the price of this wheel, it should be there!
Cheers
And people are really believing them too. Part of it comes from the reviewers who get these free wheels sing praises but in the longterm wheel has an issue they ignore. I remember the safest wheel V12 was faced with cut outs
@@robm425
The one person I usually believe is Marty. Yes, he gets wheels given for reviews but if he likes it he buys it.
Cheers
Either one of the biggest PLEV manufacturers lies and their battery packs usually last much longer than they should, or WrongWay & Co. are mistaken. Which one is more likely?
a smart bms can infact be the safest, technically it can tell the controller how low cells are getting and thus reduce the current if some cells are getting too low
@@BH4x0r No, a Smart BMS (or any kind of BMS) doesn’t tell the controller to reduce the current. That would no longer be a self-balancing vehicle. It has to use the amount of current that the rider asks for. Otherwise the wheel no longer stays upright.
Also, it doesn’t take a “Smart BMS” to be able to monitor the cell group voltages. All EUCs do that. What we now call a “Smart BMS” is just one that reports these voltages all the way to the user.
interesting my wheel just having problem on BMS and i'm sending to repairing it... just curious what that is and you talking about this , thanks!
Got you! That’s interesting! Now I’m curious too ask them!
I have watched your VODs for ages and can say for the most part they are great. Good to see you continue to pass on the knowledge and educate the community. In saying that making VODs calling out brands for what they should have done for “Decades” isn’t going to win you any points with them and likely confuse some other newer riders. Your stance on Begode / Inmotion could be construed as confusing when making purchases. Are these wheel outright dangerous or should you just be aware what you get when you buy. It’s like buying a bike this one come with these features / this one doesn’t. In some cases calling out a manufacturer for something that is outright dangerous Is welcome and warranted but I would ask as a influencer you need to strike the balance, not saying you haven’t but it might be worth reflecting on who your target audience is for these VODs. Only my opinion. keep it up and thanks for interesting content.
Someone has to do it. I prefer it be someone with an audience such as him.
Exactly my point, people listen to influencers like him. If he wants to change the way they work better provide constructive feedback. Someone has too lol.
Does cell balancing affect safety? Fires that eucs are famous for? If yes why is the inmotion having the least fires compared to other brands?
So from what I have seen Begode Masters tend to not reach the full 134.4. I've seen many riders with this issue even after swapping to a new charge board. Does that mean they are not passively balancing?
It maybe that the charger is not accurately set to 134.4 or it may be the passive balancing, either way I wouldn't worry to much. If the battery pack is 4V or more below its rated voltage after a full charge, then that would indicate a problem. The likely cause failed cells within a pack. Time to open the machine and check the battery packs of the machine individually with a meter. Do not ride a machine with failed cells, and do not charge it any further either.
Thanks for dumbing it down for me LOL
For me is not acceptable in wheel .
Useful stuff if you own an Inmotion EUC. Could you maybe also include an email contact for Serg for anyone that might want to get their battery repaired by him?
Very informative about EUC batteries and what passive balancing is. Now does the V12 have passive balancing? This should be on all Inmotion wheels.
Sergio should become the “EUC know it all” like there’s an “FPV know it all” aka Joshua Bardwell.
no, V12 not have, its a shame for Inmotion
we can also talk about the inmotion motherboard which sometimes does not know how to interpret the correct battery voltage? Everything is bad at inmotion regarding the battery and battery management...
this is why i love my Sherman S. its everything packed in the wheel for user in mind.
except for few things to improve, yes it is good, but not perfect
@@milordas to me its more than perfect as i have been riding thousands of kilometers with zero issues!
So which other EUC brands and models have Active or Passive Cell Balancing BMS currently?
Begode, King-Song, Veteran
@@mr_wrongway wrong...
initially i questioned the idea of discharge top to have other cells catch up, but connecting all the cells is a pain, connecting all cells which i can imagine for this market of transport a special battery could be made, one big sucker per side or bigger fewer batteries could be individually managed. cause i was thinking discharge into cell next door for charging to not loose house power from discharging a cell waiting on some other slow cell to catch up, but yeah. Theres some nice new batteries poping up, "smiles", i wonder how close we are to a 10,000 WH euc at the same size and weight. oh its got to charge in, 2 hours, half an hour oh wait, uh sounds ages, a minute, ha.
eh nice to dream of affording it ha. oh yeah its cheaper? yeah lets dream its cheaper ha.
good content.
I’ll be riding my v13 before you even try it out 😂
I liked this more technical topic, I guess euc users are kind of geeks 😅
It would be like if gasoline engines were being developed at the same time as motorcycles. Enthusiasts would want to know how they worked.
Ok,ok but why u guys dont explain to the people the fact that balancing and fast charging is not a bigger concern than big discharging rate because of agresive Rider style? When a Rider start to ride very agressive the A is going up like crazy..like 80--98 A how we seen already at V13...
80A at 120V mean 10KW..
98A at 120V means more than 10KW peak power provided by manufacturer..do u think that 100A its ok for that motor?
Yea,the motor will survive,but the battery stress is so fcking hard..that it will destroy the cells.
Just remember that li ion cells are chemical based..how safe do you think is to discharge 3000 Wh battery with 100A discharge rate?how long time u can run 10KW peak motor on 3KW battery?
Has anyone seen that after a ride..when u stop at 30% and just make a half hour breake..the battery will be more fresh and u get a bit more autonomy than when u ride all battery at tine?
The explanation is that chemical inside cell have some time to rest-regenerate..and when u will start another ride they will be fresh..
How V13 battery will be afer of riding V13 at very high speed...and fast acceleration from 40 to 80-90A? What do u think happen inside every cell?
It needs only one cell who maybe is a bit weak from hidden manufactury mistake...we know that everything is made can have a rate of few % of scrap rate..just read about that on internet.. some of them are finded by manufacturer test but some of them are just hidden..the parameters look ok but when they will be used in normal or high capacity they will fall...
And If one cell fall...that cell put pressure to the neighbour cells..untill another one will fall..
High discharge through aggressive riding can cause voltage sag on the battery (and cutout). Depending on the batteries you can expect 10A continuous output on a cell (times the number of cells in parallel). My S18 for example has cells arranged in 20 serial and 3 parallel. After 30A although the batteries are capable of supplying 14A for short periods, voltage sag is going to be significant (very significant). Voltage sag is a vicious circle, requiring the batteries to provide even more current for the same power (Watts =Volts x Amps). Equally very high currents will be required for heavy acceleration, or steep inclines at low speeds this puts high strain on components such as the FET's in the control board. Batteries are a chemical reaction, cold will slow this process both in charging and discharging. If high demand is put on a battery this chemical process will continue for a short time after demand ceases and the battery voltage will partially recover.
Weak batteries. There are different problems with batteries, batteries can leak there charge away in time, batteries can loose their capacity normally through charge discharge cycles, batteries can develop high internal resistance reducing the current they can produce on demand. These problems can appear separately, or in combination. If a cell, group of cells, is at a lower voltage in the pack through any these problems then as the pack is discharged its voltage is going to fall the furthest. If a cell goes below 2V, then this is bad for the cell anyway. If the wheel is used in such a case that cell may go to zero under load, or may even see current reversal from the other cells. This is instant death for a lithium battery. Lithium batteries normally fail as a short circuit. Anyone measuring the pack would see the pack at least 4v below its rated value even when charged. SInce cells are in parallel groups of 3,4,6 even 8 cells a shorted cell shorts out its neighbours. In most instances all the cells in that group will be at the same low voltage but if a cell was to fail catastrophically say as the result of overcharging a fire through shorting its neighbouring cells could easily be the result.
Hahhaaa thats how it would look like if I would speek next to you hahahaa... I could barely bring out a word... nicce video again... a bit comedy style... 😅😅👏👏😍
Is it possible to talke about very bad charger inmotion, the voltage goes down sometimes lower, sometimes higher... Is the electronics in question or is it the potentiometer in the charger, which causes this problem?
In general, should the charger be left plugged in longer once the maximum voltage has been reached (green diode) for the cells to be balanced? Or should it be disconnected immediately to avoid a risk of cell overvoltage (if the charge lasts a long time)?
This is more about cell longevity. Every say 5 charges or more it’s good to leave the EUC balancing (when green diode is there - keep charging. In usual usecase if you also don’t need the range it’s best to not fully charge but leave at 80-90%
@@mr_wrongway yes, if you charge to 100% battery cell lifecycle is about 300-500 cycles, but if you charge to 80-90% you can increase your battery life for 1000-2000 cycles
@@milordasUnfortunately, 80% charging has been a major cause for EUC battery packs failing early:
Electric Unicycle: 80% Charging, Good or Bad?
th-cam.com/video/pgr7-b3eBm0/w-d-xo.html
Apparently there is no passive cell balancing on my V8F. Leaving the stock charger connected for more than 10 minutes after the LED goes green will end up with one of the cell groups reaching overvoltage, shutting down all charging, and afterwards, the pack slowly discharges due to the small amount of current used to drive blue tooth and other circuitry.
@@rcgldr Since my V11 doesn’t do that, should we conclude that it does have balancing after all?
I heard that I have to wait until the charger turns green then wait 1-2 hours later to stop it in order for it to properly balance..would this be correct? I have KS18XL
Yes sir ✅
Theres a new plastic battery weighs 6x less, i could be right or not. discharges faster, eh its a bit expensive right now but sounds like euc stuff to me. Its all recycled material apparently, could get cheap fast who knows, eh i'm just pleased the wheel i've got goes at all, oh yeah.
If Begode has "passive balancing " then why does the Master continue to have unbalanced packs?...even in the newest charge port iteration?...even with a charger pumping out the correct 134.4v?
Begode is wich to be good, but still sh1t
That’s because begode is begode :D they have dead pack right out of the box. My MSP even though this model had other issues, had perfectly balanced pack after 4000km
@@mr_wrongway I guess...but they use Samsung 50E cells that are CE certified. Samsung is an international legit manufacturer...they should not have dead / dying packs.
@@ZuberEUC fair point….maybe it’s their bms that gets damaged during shipping…
The correct answer is because the 134v are no “real” 134v. It are on each side 67,2 plus 67,2 and each of THOSE is balanaced. BUT the 67,2 plus 67,2 isnt checked if both are on the same voltage. thats why the packs MAY differ a beat
Repost:
Internal resistance is important as it varies by approximately %15 within a production batch unless batteries are well sorted. This difference is hard to balance as state of charge (think accumulated milliamp hours)ends up higher in a lower voltage cell with lower internal resistance. When bypassing a higher V cell ACTIVE balancing continues to raise the state of charge of the lower resistance cell as state of charge is not voltage and we work from the voltage reading. Another Key concept, capacity imbalance affects voltage difference less than charge imbalance making cell voltage as a poor measurement for capacity imbalance. While voltage deviation at high SOC is less imbalanced at low SOC (think discharged battery)the imbalance is higher so active balancing must be (i’m no battery expert) at the lower state of charge condition while passive balancing relies on charging to 100 percent and a good way to do this is slow charging from 98% to 100%.
What to take away is that active balancing is not all that. No balancing algorithm can be affective against impedance mismatch. Also, capacity imbalance is not measured by voltage imbalance so if I understand what I have found written up in battery literature I would guess passive balancing is better than active as active is likely to do more damage ->> in capacity imbalance or impedance differences the cell voltage differences are not enough to base the balancing. Even more importantly consider that if active balancing is not working as the above indicates then the balancing will get worse and degrading will accelerate each time you charge especially if balancing occurs during charge and discharge the active balancing turns bypass on. Best active balancing charge, I read, is one where problems with balance are lessor if balancing only takes place at end of charge (as IR effects are less as current is lower meaning the internal resistance has less impact on battery voltage reading). Note that passive balancing takes place at the top end (SOC is about 95%). No balance needed IF …All the problems with balance can be avoided by not charging to more than 90% or discharging to too low such as min 10%.
Someone should invent Cell Balancing solution for wheels withaut it , if possible ^^ take my money! xD Cheers!
Inmotion, hear that and fix it, please... It would be great to have Smart bms like JK bms with Active balansing. That would be great :) But sadly (imo) its not fit programmaticaly by Wheel bios, as its mainboard monitors battery in some way. But passive balansing is a must,- everyone knows, who knows a basic electric knowledge and have any euc.
Subscriber and I watch most of your videos on TH-cam from Kenya. Got me to be interested in electric unicycles. If in future you ever have a give away of an electric unicycle that can be charged by a 240 volts electric outlet (that is the voltage in electrical sockets in Kenya), I would like to claim that, apply for that and be considered for such a giveaway, thanks.
they all can. 220-240 volts is standard in europe. Just don't use a charger made for 110 volts and connect it to your 220 volt outlet.
implementing cell balancing, on the bms only costs $1...for inmotion! After that is not possible because there is not enough space to do it ourselves...your security costs less than $1 for inmotion...
So is it was a good thing the police took my V5f.
What?...when?!?
@@omidel. relax it was in 2020. I was sick of my V5f. It was a learning wheel. I bought it for 666 euro and I put more than 500 km on it. The devil may have it...or the cops.
@@omidel. the V5f is on WrongWay community gallery on TH-cam. I was in the background in the photo in Den Haag.
Good info, but the English was exhausting.
Yooooooooo
🤙🏼⚡👏🏼👏🏼⚡🤙🏼
🤘🤙🧡