Thank you David, John, and Ken for this wonderful and fruitful discussion! This gives me so much to reflect on, and I’m looking forward to the next discussion!
I love you "trancendentally" John. May you gain this realization if you haven't Truth telling is the1st key that opens the door to wisdom" gratefulness" propositional truth The second is material promise keeping. Participatory truth Sandwiched between is context; interpretation all truth. A self referential self contained model of cognitiom.
Thank you Dan! John’s work has helped me so much and I know you are a massive part of that, so I just want to thank you personally too 🙏 warm regards Scott
Returning to this video over a year later, the conversation on the 'leap' of reason reminds me of this extended passage from David Bentley-Hart in an article called 'Reason's Faith': "What, after all, warrants our belief in the power of rational consciousness to give us a true knowledge of reality? Whether we wish to acknowledge it or not, there is a fiduciary moment within every act of reason, which allows for thought’s first movement toward ends beyond itself. It is an implicit trust in an original accord between mind and world, mysterious but indissoluble; and it is one that (protest how we may) makes sense only if we presume some original ontological unity between consciousness and being. Every attempt of the rational mind to find the truth of things involves an implicit metaphysical presupposition: that there is some transcendent coincidence of world and soul, some original fullness of reality where they are always already one, which allows for their openness one to the other here below. One traditional way of saying this is that mind and world, according to their different modes, both participate in the same eternal forms; but that merely defers the epistemological enigma to a higher level of reality. Even this accord between intelligence and intelligible forms seems necessarily to point toward some still-higher, more eminent unity in the simplicity of a first principle-in God. Only this permits us to believe that being is already manifestation, that it is by nature intelligible and comes to fruition as it discloses itself in soul: There is a reciprocal transparency of mind and world, an essential belonging of each to the other, because in their transcendent source they are one."
Wow! That was so wonderful to see John get to talk to D.C. Schindler! I think I was as excited to see John talk to D.C. Schindler as he was to talk to him. His books embody exactly what he says about entering into a deep relationship with reason provoked by beauty and fueled by love. I sincerely hope he becomes a regular participant in your corner of the internet!
OH. MY. GOD. IT'S D.C. SCHINDLER It wasn't till about half way through his book that I was genuinely surprised to find out that he was still alive, and a contemporary author. Plato's Critique of Impure Reason has been a transformative process for me. So glad and excited to see the initiation of this ongoing dialog with Schindler.
Likewise! I'm in the middle of the book and its been a life changing experience for me - I haven't felt this energized by a book since discovering philosophy as a late teen. Looking forward to more discussions, I think Davids voice will be much appreciated by many in this space. What a time to be alive!
You can die happy now, it seems. I'm so glad this happened when it did, hearing you talk about the book was so interesting! Now this, so rich with more topics to circumnavigate.
John...David ...Ken...l wish to thank you all for collaboration of insight...you 3 beings are so on point it's awesome to follow your conversations and John I wish I could have found you sooner.... I'm so fortunate to have converged this journey with your own it's as if I was going to struggle through All this alone... and I was so stuck inside myself you're awakening from the meaning crisis has had a profound influence over My being able to rise above My own condition... your All In my thoughts... always... forever grateful Bigelow founder of Hat Creek Rigging & Recovery Foundation...our TH-cam channel is under same heading... we're environmental low impact solutions to our. Natural Resources.... right now we are building a natural water filtration system for treating Storm drainage back in to our oceans on a global scale... It's a Honorable and Noble example to set for generations to follow...Thanks again for y'all's help and inspiration ❤ 16:20 😅
Then you're gonna have to supplement it with at least 2 hours of PVK commentary. That is... if we can take a break from the Awakening From the [BOM] Leadership Crisis 😁
@@Jacob011 perhaps with the coherence generated through the dialogos, there would be an increasing union - which could be viewed as the individual (boundaries) falling apart. Are there records of such extended encounters? What would we see/hear? Would we feel it remotely?
So so great to see these two giants sparking into dialogos so readily. The looks of mutual giddy excitement on the faces of both John and David were a true joy to behold. Ken did such a commendable job of providing ongoing synopsis to keep us all orientated.
No way… Ever since I heard John talk about D.C. Schindler, I’ve watched all of his lectures on youtube, which lead me to buying all of his books. So excited for this!
At 21:30 when you guys talk about the primacy of Beauty, centrality of Good, and the ultimacy of Truth, this discussion it eerily similar to what Friedrich Schiller discusses in his "Letters on the Aesthetic Education of Man". Just so it be said he wrote it in the 1790s, so he might be suffering from construing these as seperate domains with their own autonomy, but in my reading I did not get that impression. It seems to me Schiller is aware of that problem (especially in his separation in understanding as something how it appears in actuality, compared to how it ideally is.)
Inevitable that this talk should happen. Serendipitous that two preeminent seekers after meaning on different paths should finally meet in the dialogos which both cherish so highly. It's a privilege to witness. Also prayers and condolences for Dr. Schindler on the passing of his great father, Dr. David L. Schindler, whose contributions to the world of Catholic (big C and little c) thought and to the Communio school have been such a profound blessing.
This conversation was erotic in the classical sense. Such elegant points and so affirming to see neo-platonism live in and through these fine gentlemen. The unity of love, beauty, and reason in a non-monological form connecting history, literature, and the collective moment we live in felt present. Holding this conversation in attention, imagination, and memory are a kind of living contemplation. I'm so glad for this and looking forward to more!
So so excited for this! I've been hoping for this conversation to happen for a while now. After hearing John reference D.C. Schindler in multiple discussions I've gone and read several of his books. Thanks gentlemen!🙏
I wonder what Pageau would have to say about that idea of Reason as the bringing in of the world, and Love as the moving out. It sounds strikingly reminiscent of the left/right hand symbolism. If love is attention, and attention is what animates the world, reason is the embodiment of that attention, I'm seeing masculine/feminine archetypes there too.
Just a wonderful conversation, thank you all. Really rich, and lots of valuable points to ruminate on. I particularly found this notion at 32:32 to be profound. It made me think of CS Lewis’ quote from The Last Battle about going “further up and further in”. It’s like the more we ascend, the more we are immersed in reality, as opposed to leaving reality behind. I look forward to future conversations!
“Faithfulness to the existential stance of love.” That’s great. The part here on returning to the world and refutation of the world disappearing because of love are great. Congratulations Ken.
I'm delighted to see this conversation. I read Love and the Postmodern Predicament this summer and it was one of those rare and genuinely transformative books that has helped me frame so many of my questions and intuitions. A conversation with Johnathan Pageau would be wonderful.
Can it get any better? So enormously thankful for these conversations - (while I am also in the process of reading St Maximus the Confessor! ) Everything is disintegrating, degrading around me but Beauty, Truth and Love shines clearer than ever!
Wow! So good! The symbolon-diabolon aligns with the discussions around art-propaganda dimensions that we’ve been exploring in the Art Fellowship. Oooh yeah!!! Juicy juicy 💋💋💋
The idea that beauty is linked to love in the way that you discover by participating with someone the endless potential beauty emergent from each other is fabulous, it really stroke me and linked to what John said in his mediation lesson about love, very cool insight. And it brings faith in the fact that my brain is able to think this way and I love it too... Thank you guys
John Vervaeke, I hereby nominate you to the title of the best adviser of good and important books ever. I just added _Plato’s Critique…_ to my not so short and ever expanding to read list. I am plowing Hadot at the moment and it’s such a treat since I’ve read philosophy for many years but only recently have gone greek/roman about it, i.e. started to _live it_ (or, to be fair and honest, _try_ to live it, just like the ancients did). I’m close to hoping the meaning crisis won’t be “solved”, just in order for things like this to keep coming 🤣Thank you so much!
I literally just yelled out a thank you for talking about how the cascading effects of instrumentalized reason! Thank you, and I'm absolutely thrilled that this long anticipated conversation with Ken and David came to be.
So wonderful to finally see Vervaeke and D. C. Schindler together. We're deeply indebted to Ken for making this happen. I would be very curious to know what David thinks of John's dialogical practices and the relationship between ekstasis and reason found there. Ekstasis plays a central role for reason in "Plato's Critique of Impure Reason" but it also seems to be the cognitive elixir at work in so many of the practices being explored by John and the communities in his orbit. I would also be really interested to hear David's interpretation of what specific practices, if any, might ground ekstasis in the Western tradition, past or present. In my own notes to "Plato's Critique of Impure Reason", I sometimes called what he was describing as "ekstasis without a method" -- in other words, realizing that the proper function of reason requires some degree of escaping our hyper-propositional and self-centered use of reason, and going beyond it; Schindler's commentary on Plato's 7th Letter was magnificent in this regard. But at the end of the day both his book and Plato himself are relatively mute on how this is supposed to occur, other than perhaps through some sort of dialogue. Are there other tools buried in the Western kit? It strikes me that so many of the central features of Christian monastic life can also be read as drivers of ekstasis -- e.g. intensive prayer, contemplation, solitude, song. What does David think of the concept of "ecology of practices"? Does he see a space for non-propositional practices (not necessarily mystical, though) in ameliorating the types of thinking that have brought us to the meaning crisis? Thank you all again for giving us a wonderful talk.
Amazing! So grateful to be here tuned to this corner of the internet and be inspiried by your collected devoted minds! I would be curious to hear D.C. Schindlers thoughts on the subject of the previous discussion between you and Ken Lowry, the koan of Christs cry on the cross possibly in the context of the The Good in the next discussion. Just a curious idea from a dubious rando. Best of luck on your daring vouyage, liseners and orators alike!
Thank you all so much for this video, it was just fantastic. As always! I am merely an armchair philosopher attempting tricky hill walks in cheap trainers (to use the metaphor Ken introduced you with), but forgive my making an observation & asking your thoughts/advice regarding whether I am on the right track and understanding properly! It strikes me that there appears to be a thread linking the discussions of (i) vulnerability in transcendence, (i) reason and (iii) faith as reciprocal opening/dualistic processing). In discussions wherein something falls outside our personal beliefs, so many of us will inadvertently construct a wall of additional skepticism. This wall requires significant work to break down and makes perspectival change / insight much harder to achieve. First, accepting someone’s propositions comes with significant risk to our sense of identity and meaning, which thus leads to huge potential vulnerability and therefore the construction of the wall. Second, preparedness for vulnerability can be dramatically increased if discussions are approached with love rather than combative debate (philia sophia > philia nikia). Sadly, this is rarely the way things are set up or approached (your dialogos being an exception!). However, given reciprocal opening, if either party demonstrates agape whilst reasonably maintaining their position it may be possible to begin a cycle of reciprocal opening whereby insights can be made. Finally, this process might also apply to the workings of faith. Is it the case that agape can facilitate vulnerability, which then allows a process of transframing to begin? The symbol that is God is then an icon to which we are drawn (Schindler/Murdoch’s ultimate & infinite good-beauty-truth) and prepared to become vulnerable for, which can provide an insight about ourselves, allowing an insight about God, and round and round in a continuous loop of reciprocal opening that affords dramatic transframing in a way that feels truly real and rooted in agape - what some might experience as a connection with the Holy Spirit. To bring things back round to where I began, faith would thus form the dynamic coupling* between (a) good-beauty-truth within me, (b) the good-beauty-truth I perceive to exist in the world more deeply/broadly and (c) the icon of a God or the dharma/tao/etc. Faith is not the blind acceptance of a set of propositions taught by my spiritual teacher, but the realization (sati) that there is a deep and true connection between (a), (b) and (c): if I only trust that and allow myself the vulnerability for serious play then I can more easily find opportunities for insight, flow and sensibility transcendence. *Apologies if this is the wrong term!
@@climbingmt.sophia Phew, glad I'm not barking up the wrong tree entirely! John's work has been so helpful in providing a language and analysis that codify things I've been trying to articulate for years, thanks for hosting this talk :)
Primacy of beauty. Centrality of good. Ultimacy of truth. Drawn to beauty. Called to goodness. Seeking truth. Great beauty is cloaked in mystery. Great goodness is unattainable. Great truths must be discovered they cannot be deduced.
Wow. Wow again. This was a real treat. I’m looking forward to hearing the next round. With Jonathan Pageau I’ll have to come up with a loose name for this group. Kinda like the old IDW.
Bits from here and there of the incomprehensible are pulled together, arranged and rearranged into a structure in which we can reason out some aspect and find something new.
59:29 atención por favor a los que comentamos citando lo que dicen. Asi de importante es para todos los que nos tomamos el trabajo de escucharlos plenamente de inicio a fin 👍🏼. Gracias, hugs 🤗 and peace ✌️🕊️.
The beautiful the truth and the good ,beauty doesn't mean silence that's why my voice is not a monologue, overtakes,a creek poet,from his book the philosophy of flowers
Who is the philosopher mentioned at 28:24? Robert Shammond? Chaymond? tried googling some permutations of the spelling but I don't seem to be getting any hits...
Excerpt from "Remembrance of Things Past" by Marcel Proust I feel that there is much to be said for the Celtic belief that the souls of those whom we have lost are held captive in some inferior being, in an animal, in a plant, in some inanimate object, and so effectively lost to us until the day (which to many never comes) when we happen to pass by the tree or to obtain possession of the object which forms their prison. Then they start and tremble, they call us by our name, and as soon as we have recognised their voice the spell is broken. We have delivered them: they have overcome death and return to share our life. And so it is with our own past. It is a labour in vain to attempt to recapture it: all the efforts of our intellect must prove futile. The past is hidden somewhere outside the realm, beyond the reach of intellect, in some material object (in the sensation which that material object will give us) which we do not suspect. And as for that object, it depends on chance whether we come upon it or not before we ourselves must die. Many years had elapsed during which nothing of Combray, save what was comprised in the theatre and the drama of my going to bed there, had any existence for me, when one day in winter, as I came home, my mother, seeing that I was cold, offered me some tea, a thing I did not ordinarily take. I declined at first, and then, for no particular reason, changed my mind. She sent out for one of those short, plump little cakes called 'petites madeleines,' which look as though they had been moulded in the fluted scallop of a pilgrim's shell. And soon, mechanically, weary after a dull day with the prospect of a depressing morrow, I raised to my lips a spoonful of the tea in which I had soaked a morsel of the cake. No sooner had the warm liquid, and the crumbs with it, touched my palate, a shudder ran through my whole body, and I stopped, intent upon the extraordinary changes that were taking place. An exquisite pleasure had invaded my senses, but individual, detached, with no suggestion of its origin. And at once the vicissitudes of life had become indifferent to me, its disasters innocuous, its brevity illusory--this new sensation having had on me the effect which love has of filling me with a precious essence; or rather this essence was not in me, it was myself. I had ceased now to feel mediocre, accidental, mortal. Whence could it have come to me, this all-powerful joy? I was conscious that it was connected with the taste of tea and cake, but that it infinitely transcended those savours, could not, indeed, be of the same nature as theirs. Whence did it come? What did it signify? How could I seize upon and define it? I drink a second mouthful, in which I find nothing more than in the first, a third, which gives me rather less than the second. It is time to stop; the potion is losing its magic. It is plain that the object of my quest, the truth, lies not in the cup but in myself. The tea has called up in me, but does not itself understand, and can only repeat indefinitely with a gradual loss of strength, the same testimony; which I, too, cannot interpret, though I hope at least to be able to call upon the tea for it again and to find it there presently, intact and at my disposal, for my final enlightenment. I put down my cup and examine my own mind. It is for it to discover the truth. But how? What an abyss of uncertainty whenever the mind feels that some part of it has strayed beyond its own borders; when it, the seeker, is at once the dark region through which it must go seeking, where all its equipment will avail it nothing. Seek? More than that: create. It is face to face with something which does not so far exist, to which it alone can give reality and substance, which it alone can bring into the light of day. And I begin again to ask myself what it could have been, this unremembered state which brought with it no logical proof of its existence, but only the sense that it was a happy, that it was a real state in whose presence other states of consciousness melted and vanished. I decide to attempt to make it reappear. I retrace my thoughts to the moment at which I drank the first spoonful of tea. I find again the same state, illumined by no fresh light. I compel my mind to make one further effort, to follow and recapture once again the fleeting sensation. And that nothing may interrupt it in its course I shut out every obstacle, every extraneous idea, I stop my ears and inhibit all attention to the sounds which come from the next room. And then, feeling that my mind is growing fatigued without having any success to report, I compel it for a change to enjoy that distraction which I have just denied it, to think of other things, to rest and refresh itself before the supreme attempt. And then for the second time I clear an empty space in front of it. I place in position before my mind's eye the still recent taste of that first mouthful, and I feel something start within me, something that leaves its resting-place and attempts to rise, something that has been embedded like an anchor at a great depth; I do not know yet what it is, but I can feel it mounting slowly; I can measure the resistance, I can hear the echo of great spaces traversed. Undoubtedly what is thus palpitating in the depths of my being must be the image, the visual memory which, being linked to that taste, has tried to follow it into my conscious mind. But its struggles are too far off, too much confused; scarcely can I perceive the colourless reflection in which are blended the uncapturable whirling medley of radiant hues, and I cannot distinguish its form, cannot invite it, as the one possible interpreter, to translate to me the evidence of its contemporary, its inseparable paramour, the taste of cake soaked in tea; cannot ask it to inform me what special circumstance is in question, of what period in my past life. Will it ultimately reach the clear surface of my consciousness, this memory, this old, dead moment which the magnetism of an identical moment has travelled so far to importune, to disturb, to raise up out of the very depths of my being? I cannot tell. Now that I feel nothing, it has stopped, has perhaps gone down again into its darkness, from which who can say whether it will ever rise? Ten times over I must essay the task, must lean down over the abyss. And each time the natural laziness which deters us from every difficult enterprise, every work of importance, has urged me to leave the thing alone, to drink my tea and to think merely of the worries of to-day and of my hopes for to-morrow, which let themselves be pondered over without effort or distress of mind. And suddenly the memory returns. The taste was that of the little crumb of madeleine which on Sunday mornings at Combray (because on those mornings I did not go out before church-time), when I went to say good day to her in her bedroom, my aunt Léonie used to give me, dipping it first in her own cup of real or of lime-flower tea. The sight of the little madeleine had recalled nothing to my mind before I tasted it; perhaps because I had so often seen such things in the interval, without tasting them, on the trays in pastry-cooks' windows, that their image had dissociated itself from those Combray days to take its place among others more recent; perhaps because of those memories, so long abandoned and put out of mind, nothing now survived, everything was scattered; the forms of things, including that of the little scallop-shell of pastry, so richly sensual under its severe, religious folds, were either obliterated or had been so long dormant as to have lost the power of expansion which would have allowed them to resume their place in my consciousness. But when from a longdistant past nothing subsists, after the people are dead, after the things are broken and scattered, still, alone, more fragile, but with more vitality, more unsubstantial, more persistent, more faithful, the smell and taste of things remain poised a long time, like souls, ready to remind us, waiting and hoping for their moment, amid the ruins of all the rest; and bear unfaltering, in the tiny and almost impalpable drop of their essence, the vast structure of recollection. And once I had recognized the taste of the crumb of madeleine soaked in her decoction of lime-flowers which my aunt used to give me (although I did not yet know and must long postpone the discovery of why this memory made me so happy) immediately the old grey house upon the street, where her room was, rose up like the scenery of a theatre to attach itself to the little pavilion, opening on to the garden, which had been built out behind it for my parents (the isolated panel which until that moment had been all that I could see); and with the house the town, from morning to night and in all weathers, the Square where I was sent before luncheon, the streets along which I used to run errands, the country roads we took when it was fine. And just as the Japanese amuse themselves by filling a porcelain bowl with water and steeping in it little crumbs of paper which until then are without character or form, but, the moment they become wet, stretch themselves and bend, take on colour and distinctive shape, become flowers or houses or people, permanent and recognisable, so in that moment all the flowers in our garden and in M. Swann's park, and the water-lilies on the Vivonne and the good folk of the village and their little dwellings and the parish church and the whole of Combray and of its surroundings, taking their proper shapes and growing solid, sprang into being, town and gardens alike, all from my cup of tea.
Alan Moore has very beautiful descriptions of the vertical in the horizontal in his own 4 dimensional cosmology, if you are looking for a good fiction book his Jerusalem is wonderful in the infinitely interconnected way befitting a magician. For example he has a whole chapter in which (i am not even sure if consciously) he brings together Einstein’s block universe, Nietzsche’s eternal recurrence, christina theology, and Jung’s fitting all this into the psychological.
Wondering if someone could help me out here. I understand some of what is being discussed here (and it really clicks) but a lot of it is going over my head. It would seem im missing some vital knowledge, as these subjects are rather new to me. I've been getting a lot from Jonathan Pageau, on my second reading of Mathew Pageaus book and I'm on the third episode of Vervaekes series about the meaning crisis. Could someone point me in the direction of some reading that might fill in the gaps of my knowledge/ understanding. I'm on one hell of a journey but at times I feel I've joined in half way through the show. Thanks for everything John Vervaeke my life is forever altered, forever deeper, forever forever.
Hi Carl, I'm glad to hear all of this! I've been in the place you speak of, and frequently still find myself there. I would recommend finishing Awakening from the Meaning Crisis. Otherwise, just continue to follow through on books/ content that presents itself to you. All the best 🙏
@@climbingmt.sophia Thank you for your response, I've been thinking a lot about my question here since writing it, along with contemplating the way in which the resources I've already interacted with revealed themselves to me. Your answer, although perfectly simple, makes a lot of sense and is reassuring, so thank you. 😌🙏
There is something strange and inauthentic about the circle-jerky vibe as it appears to me. The arguments are great and the differentiations are wonderful, so I'm sure this impression is in a large part my projection. Its almost as if a certain amount of disagreement is neccecary for me to feel like the discussion is genuine.
Ernst Cassirer and Paul Tillich pointed to this propositionally tyrannical use of reason. The former called it "mathematical reason," while the latter named it "technical reason."
Meaning crisis? Because there is no meaning? Seems to me there is no shortage of meaning. "The mind of the average sensual man has, as one of its constituents, something resembling, or identical with the reality substantial to the manifold world" -- Aldous Huxley in The Perennial Philosophy. He and William James both describe how disciplines and practices can help us realize this identity despite or because of the suffering in our lives.
im in no way a academic, but one of the hard consepts left to me as a failed reader is the "iron cage" by Weber... stuff that thing in your pipe and smoke it... we are fighing deep nihilism here ffs. PS: i still feel that the objektive observation, and understanding of data of individuals on a collective level is usefull. the shade is that the marked vampires cooped that.
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Thank you David, John, and Ken for this wonderful and fruitful discussion! This gives me so much to reflect on, and I’m looking forward to the next discussion!
Thank you my dear friend.
I love you "trancendentally" John.
May you gain this realization if you haven't
Truth telling is the1st key that opens the door to wisdom" gratefulness" propositional truth
The second is material promise keeping. Participatory truth
Sandwiched between is context; interpretation all truth.
A self referential self contained model of cognitiom.
Thank you Dan! John’s work has helped me so much and I know you are a massive part of that, so I just want to thank you personally too 🙏 warm regards Scott
great talks never lose relevance ... thank you David & John
Returning to this video over a year later, the conversation on the 'leap' of reason reminds me of this extended passage from David Bentley-Hart in an article called 'Reason's Faith':
"What, after all, warrants our belief in the power of rational consciousness to give us a true knowledge of reality? Whether we wish to acknowledge it or not, there is a fiduciary moment within every act of reason, which allows for thought’s first movement toward ends beyond itself. It is an implicit trust in an original accord between mind and world, mysterious but indissoluble; and it is one that (protest how we may) makes sense only if we presume some original ontological unity between consciousness and being. Every attempt of the rational mind to find the truth of things involves an implicit metaphysical presupposition: that there is some transcendent coincidence of world and soul, some original fullness of reality where they are always already one, which allows for their openness one to the other here below.
One traditional way of saying this is that mind and world, according to their different modes, both participate in the same eternal forms; but that merely defers the epistemological enigma to a higher level of reality. Even this accord between intelligence and intelligible forms seems necessarily to point toward some still-higher, more eminent unity in the simplicity of a first principle-in God. Only this permits us to believe that being is already manifestation, that it is by nature intelligible and comes to fruition as it discloses itself in soul: There is a reciprocal transparency of mind and world, an essential belonging of each to the other, because in their transcendent source they are one."
Wow! That was so wonderful to see John get to talk to D.C. Schindler! I think I was as excited to see John talk to D.C. Schindler as he was to talk to him. His books embody exactly what he says about entering into a deep relationship with reason provoked by beauty and fueled by love. I sincerely hope he becomes a regular participant in your corner of the internet!
Very excited about this!
GREAT, GREAT, GREAT proposal by John of the relationship between love and reason! Thank you!
OH. MY. GOD. IT'S D.C. SCHINDLER
It wasn't till about half way through his book that I was genuinely surprised to find out that he was still alive, and a contemporary author. Plato's Critique of Impure Reason has been a transformative process for me. So glad and excited to see the initiation of this ongoing dialog with Schindler.
Likewise! I'm in the middle of the book and its been a life changing experience for me - I haven't felt this energized by a book since discovering philosophy as a late teen. Looking forward to more discussions, I think Davids voice will be much appreciated by many in this space. What a time to be alive!
You can die happy now, it seems. I'm so glad this happened when it did, hearing you talk about the book was so interesting! Now this, so rich with more topics to circumnavigate.
John...David ...Ken...l wish to thank you all for collaboration of insight...you 3 beings are so on point it's awesome to follow your conversations and John I wish I could have found you sooner.... I'm so fortunate to have converged this journey with your own it's as if I was going to struggle through All this alone... and I was so stuck inside myself you're awakening from the meaning crisis has had a profound influence over My being able to rise above My own condition... your All In my thoughts... always... forever grateful Bigelow founder of Hat Creek Rigging & Recovery Foundation...our TH-cam channel is under same heading... we're environmental low impact solutions to our. Natural Resources.... right now we are building a natural water filtration system for treating Storm drainage back in to our oceans on a global scale... It's a Honorable and Noble example to set for generations to follow...Thanks again for y'all's help and inspiration ❤ 16:20 😅
I can already see that 1 hour will not be enough...
Then you're gonna have to supplement it with at least 2 hours of PVK commentary. That is... if we can take a break from the Awakening From the [BOM] Leadership Crisis 😁
Paul, you savage!
Jonathan Pageau and DC Schindler!
A Trialogos for the Ages! Absolutely awesome. Thank you fine sirs
Imagine a 3 hour conversation with Schindler, Vervaeke, McGilchrist and Pageau in a room together. My heart would melt
Thanks for this discussion
3 days…
@@lsdc1 3 aions ;D
The room would explode, I bet. 🤣 It would have to be at least ten hours and very focused, by which point the esteemed gents would be "falling apart" .
@@Jacob011 perhaps with the coherence generated through the dialogos, there would be an increasing union - which could be viewed as the individual (boundaries) falling apart. Are there records of such extended encounters? What would we see/hear? Would we feel it remotely?
Just watched this again for the 4th time and I must say it is profoundly beautiful in the Platonic sense. Thank you all again 🙏
Wonderful, I'm happy to see you together :)
Lovely conversation John, I’m sure we would all love to have D.C. Schindler on again with us 🙏🏽
"LOVE AND REASON ARE INSEPARABLE" for me, that is a cornerstone for wisdom. Thank you guys! Amazing dia-logos.
So so great to see these two giants sparking into dialogos so readily. The looks of mutual giddy excitement on the faces of both John and David were a true joy to behold. Ken did such a commendable job of providing ongoing synopsis to keep us all orientated.
the diagramatic map of cognition is wonderful. thank you
the experiencial dynamicity and flow of these road signs is beyond .
grateful
Oooh! John!
Talking to one’s idols is an amazing gift. Unfortunately Nishitani is no longer with us.
Excited!!! ❤️🙏🏽🎉
The conversation we have been waiting for has arrived.
Wow....wow ..wow... Loved it. So pleased to hear from DC Schindler himself. Can't wait for part two, and three and four and five...
Straight from the horse's mouth.
Delicious indeed. Bring on "The Good" (and Suffering)!
No way… Ever since I heard John talk about D.C. Schindler, I’ve watched all of his lectures on youtube, which lead me to buying all of his books.
So excited for this!
At 21:30 when you guys talk about the primacy of Beauty, centrality of Good, and the ultimacy of Truth, this discussion it eerily similar to what Friedrich Schiller discusses in his "Letters on the Aesthetic Education of Man". Just so it be said he wrote it in the 1790s, so he might be suffering from construing these as seperate domains with their own autonomy, but in my reading I did not get that impression. It seems to me Schiller is aware of that problem (especially in his separation in understanding as something how it appears in actuality, compared to how it ideally is.)
Inevitable that this talk should happen. Serendipitous that two preeminent seekers after meaning on different paths should finally meet in the dialogos which both cherish so highly. It's a privilege to witness.
Also prayers and condolences for Dr. Schindler on the passing of his great father, Dr. David L. Schindler, whose contributions to the world of Catholic (big C and little c) thought and to the Communio school have been such a profound blessing.
This conversation was erotic in the classical sense. Such elegant points and so affirming to see neo-platonism live in and through these fine gentlemen. The unity of love, beauty, and reason in a non-monological form connecting history, literature, and the collective moment we live in felt present. Holding this conversation in attention, imagination, and memory are a kind of living contemplation.
I'm so glad for this and looking forward to more!
So so excited for this! I've been hoping for this conversation to happen for a while now. After hearing John reference D.C. Schindler in multiple discussions I've gone and read several of his books. Thanks gentlemen!🙏
Thank you David, Ken and John, cool.
I wonder what Pageau would have to say about that idea of Reason as the bringing in of the world, and Love as the moving out. It sounds strikingly reminiscent of the left/right hand symbolism. If love is attention, and attention is what animates the world, reason is the embodiment of that attention, I'm seeing masculine/feminine archetypes there too.
Wow, just wow! Let’s have many more of these please. Just beautiful. Thank you John, Ken are David🙏
Beautiful conversation that ended too soon! Don't be afraid to let it roll!!!
Once again: FINALLY!
Always enriching and transformative to watch these.
"A deep affirmation of what it means to be human" ❤
Just a wonderful conversation, thank you all. Really rich, and lots of valuable points to ruminate on.
I particularly found this notion at 32:32 to be profound. It made me think of CS Lewis’ quote from The Last Battle about going “further up and further in”. It’s like the more we ascend, the more we are immersed in reality, as opposed to leaving reality behind.
I look forward to future conversations!
Really looking forward to this! Exciting times with this discussion and After Socrates just around the corner. Thank you JV, KL & DC🙏
“Faithfulness to the existential stance of love.” That’s great. The part here on returning to the world and refutation of the world disappearing because of love are great.
Congratulations Ken.
I'm delighted to see this conversation. I read Love and the Postmodern Predicament this summer and it was one of those rare and genuinely transformative books that has helped me frame so many of my questions and intuitions.
A conversation with Johnathan Pageau would be wonderful.
Can it get any better? So enormously thankful for these conversations - (while I am also in the process of reading St Maximus the Confessor! ) Everything is disintegrating, degrading around me but Beauty, Truth and Love shines clearer than ever!
Very excited for this considering how many times I've heard John mention D.C
Wow! So good!
The symbolon-diabolon aligns with the discussions around art-propaganda dimensions that we’ve been exploring in the Art Fellowship. Oooh yeah!!!
Juicy juicy 💋💋💋
The idea that beauty is linked to love in the way that you discover by participating with someone the endless potential beauty emergent from each other is fabulous, it really stroke me and linked to what John said in his mediation lesson about love, very cool insight.
And it brings faith in the fact that my brain is able to think this way and I love it too...
Thank you guys
John Vervaeke, I hereby nominate you to the title of the best adviser of good and important books ever. I just added _Plato’s Critique…_ to my not so short and ever expanding to read list. I am plowing Hadot at the moment and it’s such a treat since I’ve read philosophy for many years but only recently have gone greek/roman about it, i.e. started to _live it_ (or, to be fair and honest, _try_ to live it, just like the ancients did). I’m close to hoping the meaning crisis won’t be “solved”, just in order for things like this to keep coming 🤣Thank you so much!
Thanks David, Ken and John!
Thanks Lee
Really looking forward to the upcoming conversations!
This was a wonderful and "shell-cracking" conversation :)
Bravo lads! 👏🏼👏🏼
I literally just yelled out a thank you for talking about how the cascading effects of instrumentalized reason! Thank you, and I'm absolutely thrilled that this long anticipated conversation with Ken and David came to be.
So wonderful to finally see Vervaeke and D. C. Schindler together. We're deeply indebted to Ken for making this happen. I would be very curious to know what David thinks of John's dialogical practices and the relationship between ekstasis and reason found there. Ekstasis plays a central role for reason in "Plato's Critique of Impure Reason" but it also seems to be the cognitive elixir at work in so many of the practices being explored by John and the communities in his orbit.
I would also be really interested to hear David's interpretation of what specific practices, if any, might ground ekstasis in the Western tradition, past or present. In my own notes to "Plato's Critique of Impure Reason", I sometimes called what he was describing as "ekstasis without a method" -- in other words, realizing that the proper function of reason requires some degree of escaping our hyper-propositional and self-centered use of reason, and going beyond it; Schindler's commentary on Plato's 7th Letter was magnificent in this regard. But at the end of the day both his book and Plato himself are relatively mute on how this is supposed to occur, other than perhaps through some sort of dialogue. Are there other tools buried in the Western kit? It strikes me that so many of the central features of Christian monastic life can also be read as drivers of ekstasis -- e.g. intensive prayer, contemplation, solitude, song. What does David think of the concept of "ecology of practices"? Does he see a space for non-propositional practices (not necessarily mystical, though) in ameliorating the types of thinking that have brought us to the meaning crisis?
Thank you all again for giving us a wonderful talk.
All 3 of you got some form of horses on the background art pieces :D
Amazing! So grateful to be here tuned to this corner of the internet and be inspiried by your collected devoted minds! I would be curious to hear D.C. Schindlers thoughts on the subject of the previous discussion between you and Ken Lowry, the koan of Christs cry on the cross possibly in the context of the The Good in the next discussion. Just a curious idea from a dubious rando. Best of luck on your daring vouyage, liseners and orators alike!
Thank you all so much for this video, it was just fantastic. As always!
I am merely an armchair philosopher attempting tricky hill walks in cheap trainers (to use the metaphor Ken introduced you with), but forgive my making an observation & asking your thoughts/advice regarding whether I am on the right track and understanding properly!
It strikes me that there appears to be a thread linking the discussions of (i) vulnerability in transcendence, (i) reason and (iii) faith as reciprocal opening/dualistic processing). In discussions wherein something falls outside our personal beliefs, so many of us will inadvertently construct a wall of additional skepticism. This wall requires significant work to break down and makes perspectival change / insight much harder to achieve.
First, accepting someone’s propositions comes with significant risk to our sense of identity and meaning, which thus leads to huge potential vulnerability and therefore the construction of the wall.
Second, preparedness for vulnerability can be dramatically increased if discussions are approached with love rather than combative debate (philia sophia > philia nikia). Sadly, this is rarely the way things are set up or approached (your dialogos being an exception!). However, given reciprocal opening, if either party demonstrates agape whilst reasonably maintaining their position it may be possible to begin a cycle of reciprocal opening whereby insights can be made.
Finally, this process might also apply to the workings of faith. Is it the case that agape can facilitate vulnerability, which then allows a process of transframing to begin? The symbol that is God is then an icon to which we are drawn (Schindler/Murdoch’s ultimate & infinite good-beauty-truth) and prepared to become vulnerable for, which can provide an insight about ourselves, allowing an insight about God, and round and round in a continuous loop of reciprocal opening that affords dramatic transframing in a way that feels truly real and rooted in agape - what some might experience as a connection with the Holy Spirit.
To bring things back round to where I began, faith would thus form the dynamic coupling* between (a) good-beauty-truth within me, (b) the good-beauty-truth I perceive to exist in the world more deeply/broadly and (c) the icon of a God or the dharma/tao/etc. Faith is not the blind acceptance of a set of propositions taught by my spiritual teacher, but the realization (sati) that there is a deep and true connection between (a), (b) and (c): if I only trust that and allow myself the vulnerability for serious play then I can more easily find opportunities for insight, flow and sensibility transcendence.
*Apologies if this is the wrong term!
Beautiful! This is very much the perspective I see
@@climbingmt.sophia Phew, glad I'm not barking up the wrong tree entirely! John's work has been so helpful in providing a language and analysis that codify things I've been trying to articulate for years, thanks for hosting this talk :)
absolutely amazing and inspiring dialogos, feel myself being drawn toward something like love or reason just by listening and watching
Primacy of beauty.
Centrality of good.
Ultimacy of truth.
Drawn to beauty.
Called to goodness.
Seeking truth.
Great beauty is cloaked in mystery.
Great goodness is unattainable.
Great truths must be discovered they cannot be deduced.
Well, that was wonderful.
Amazing stuff. I bet Christmas came early this year for John. 😀
Wow. Wow again. This was a real treat. I’m looking forward to hearing the next round. With Jonathan Pageau I’ll have to come up with a loose name for this group. Kinda like the old IDW.
Reason is a framing.
Love has more dimensions.
Contemplation informs reason.
Love happens to you and requires from you.
Bits from here and there of the incomprehensible are pulled together, arranged and rearranged into a structure in which we can reason out some aspect and find something new.
59:29 atención por favor a los que comentamos citando lo que dicen. Asi de importante es para todos los que nos tomamos el trabajo de escucharlos plenamente de inicio a fin 👍🏼. Gracias, hugs 🤗 and peace ✌️🕊️.
The beautiful the truth and the good ,beauty doesn't mean silence that's why my voice is not a monologue, overtakes,a creek poet,from his book the philosophy of flowers
Who is the philosopher mentioned at 28:24? Robert Shammond? Chaymond? tried googling some permutations of the spelling but I don't seem to be getting any hits...
I think it must Robert Spaemann, that seems to fit i.e. he was a German Catholic philosopher -> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Spaemann
@@lauriethompson740 much appreciated - thank you! (love getting the random one-month-later answers to youtube questions I'd forgotten I'd ever asked)
Excerpt from "Remembrance of Things Past" by Marcel Proust I feel that there is much to be said for the Celtic belief that the souls of those whom we have lost are held captive in some inferior being, in an animal, in a plant, in some inanimate object, and so effectively lost to us until the day (which to many never comes) when we happen to pass by the tree or to obtain possession of the object which forms their prison. Then they start and tremble, they call us by our name, and as soon as we have recognised their voice the spell is broken. We have delivered them: they have overcome death and return to share our life. And so it is with our own past. It is a labour in vain to attempt to recapture it: all the efforts of our intellect must prove futile. The past is hidden somewhere outside the realm, beyond the reach of intellect, in some material object (in the sensation which that material object will give us) which we do not suspect. And as for that object, it depends on chance whether we come upon it or not before we ourselves must die. Many years had elapsed during which nothing of Combray, save what was comprised in the theatre and the drama of my going to bed there, had any existence for me, when one day in winter, as I came home, my mother, seeing that I was cold, offered me some tea, a thing I did not ordinarily take. I declined at first, and then, for no particular reason, changed my mind. She sent out for one of those short, plump little cakes called 'petites madeleines,' which look as though they had been moulded in the fluted scallop of a pilgrim's shell. And soon, mechanically, weary after a dull day with the prospect of a depressing morrow, I raised to my lips a spoonful of the tea in which I had soaked a morsel of the cake. No sooner had the warm liquid, and the crumbs with it, touched my palate, a shudder ran through my whole body, and I stopped, intent upon the extraordinary changes that were taking place. An exquisite pleasure had invaded my senses, but individual, detached, with no suggestion of its origin. And at once the vicissitudes of life had become indifferent to me, its disasters innocuous, its brevity illusory--this new sensation having had on me the effect which love has of filling me with a precious essence; or rather this essence was not in me, it was myself. I had ceased now to feel mediocre, accidental, mortal. Whence could it have come to me, this all-powerful joy? I was conscious that it was connected with the taste of tea and cake, but that it infinitely transcended those savours, could not, indeed, be of the same nature as theirs. Whence did it come? What did it signify? How could I seize upon and define it? I drink a second mouthful, in which I find nothing more than in the first, a third, which gives me rather less than the second. It is time to stop; the potion is losing its magic. It is plain that the object of my quest, the truth, lies not in the cup but in myself. The tea has called up in me, but does not itself understand, and can only repeat indefinitely with a gradual loss of strength, the same testimony; which I, too, cannot interpret, though I hope at least to be able to call upon the tea for it again and to find it there presently, intact and at my disposal, for my final enlightenment. I put down my cup and examine my own mind. It is for it to discover the truth. But how? What an abyss of uncertainty whenever the mind feels that some part of it has strayed beyond its own borders; when it, the seeker, is at once the dark region through which it must go seeking, where all its equipment will avail it nothing. Seek? More than that: create. It is face to face with something which does not so far exist, to which it alone can give reality and substance, which it alone can bring into the light of day. And I begin again to ask myself what it could have been, this unremembered state which brought with it no logical proof of its existence, but only the sense that it was a happy, that it was a real state in whose presence other states of consciousness melted and vanished. I decide to attempt to make it reappear. I retrace my thoughts to the moment at which I drank the first spoonful of tea. I find again the same state, illumined by no fresh light. I compel my mind to make one further effort, to follow and recapture once again the fleeting sensation. And that nothing may interrupt it in its course I shut out every obstacle, every extraneous idea, I stop my ears and inhibit all attention to the sounds which come from the next room. And then, feeling that my mind is growing fatigued without having any success to report, I compel it for a change to enjoy that distraction which I have just denied it, to think of other things, to rest and refresh itself before the supreme attempt. And then for the second time I clear an empty space in front of it. I place in position before my mind's eye the still recent taste of that first mouthful, and I feel something start within me, something that leaves its resting-place and attempts to rise, something that has been embedded like an anchor at a great depth; I do not know yet what it is, but I can feel it mounting slowly; I can measure the resistance, I can hear the echo of great spaces traversed. Undoubtedly what is thus palpitating in the depths of my being must be the image, the visual memory which, being linked to that taste, has tried to follow it into my conscious mind. But its struggles are too far off, too much confused; scarcely can I perceive the colourless reflection in which are blended the uncapturable whirling medley of radiant hues, and I cannot distinguish its form, cannot invite it, as the one possible interpreter, to translate to me the evidence of its contemporary, its inseparable paramour, the taste of cake soaked in tea; cannot ask it to inform me what special circumstance is in question, of what period in my past life. Will it ultimately reach the clear surface of my consciousness, this memory, this old, dead moment which the magnetism of an identical moment has travelled so far to importune, to disturb, to raise up out of the very depths of my being? I cannot tell. Now that I feel nothing, it has stopped, has perhaps gone down again into its darkness, from which who can say whether it will ever rise? Ten times over I must essay the task, must lean down over the abyss. And each time the natural laziness which deters us from every difficult enterprise, every work of importance, has urged me to leave the thing alone, to drink my tea and to think merely of the worries of to-day and of my hopes for to-morrow, which let themselves be pondered over without effort or distress of mind. And suddenly the memory returns. The taste was that of the little crumb of madeleine which on Sunday mornings at Combray (because on those mornings I did not go out before church-time), when I went to say good day to her in her bedroom, my aunt Léonie used to give me, dipping it first in her own cup of real or of lime-flower tea. The sight of the little madeleine had recalled nothing to my mind before I tasted it; perhaps because I had so often seen such things in the interval, without tasting them, on the trays in pastry-cooks' windows, that their image had dissociated itself from those Combray days to take its place among others more recent; perhaps because of those memories, so long abandoned and put out of mind, nothing now survived, everything was scattered; the forms of things, including that of the little scallop-shell of pastry, so richly sensual under its severe, religious folds, were either obliterated or had been so long dormant as to have lost the power of expansion which would have allowed them to resume their place in my consciousness. But when from a longdistant past nothing subsists, after the people are dead, after the things are broken and scattered, still, alone, more fragile, but with more vitality, more unsubstantial, more persistent, more faithful, the smell and taste of things remain poised a long time, like souls, ready to remind us, waiting and hoping for their moment, amid the ruins of all the rest; and bear unfaltering, in the tiny and almost impalpable drop of their essence, the vast structure of recollection. And once I had recognized the taste of the crumb of madeleine soaked in her decoction of lime-flowers which my aunt used to give me (although I did not yet know and must long postpone the discovery of why this memory made me so happy) immediately the old grey house upon the street, where her room was, rose up like the scenery of a theatre to attach itself to the little pavilion, opening on to the garden, which had been built out behind it for my parents (the isolated panel which until that moment had been all that I could see); and with the house the town, from morning to night and in all weathers, the Square where I was sent before luncheon, the streets along which I used to run errands, the country roads we took when it was fine. And just as the Japanese amuse themselves by filling a porcelain bowl with water and steeping in it little crumbs of paper which until then are without character or form, but, the moment they become wet, stretch themselves and bend, take on colour and distinctive shape, become flowers or houses or people, permanent and recognisable, so in that moment all the flowers in our garden and in M. Swann's park, and the water-lilies on the Vivonne and the good folk of the village and their little dwellings and the parish church and the whole of Combray and of its surroundings, taking their proper shapes and growing solid, sprang into being, town and gardens alike, all from my cup of tea.
Alan Moore has very beautiful descriptions of the vertical in the horizontal in his own 4 dimensional cosmology, if you are looking for a good fiction book his Jerusalem is wonderful in the infinitely interconnected way befitting a magician. For example he has a whole chapter in which (i am not even sure if consciously) he brings together Einstein’s block universe, Nietzsche’s eternal recurrence, christina theology, and Jung’s fitting all this into the psychological.
Haha, I just got his book like two days ago because it‘s mentioned so often on this channel, rightly so..!
D.C. Schindler and his father are THE men. Next you need Michael Hanby.
Hanby is great. I recently read his piece 'Are we Postliberal Yet?" in New Polity. Great essay.
Wondering if someone could help me out here. I understand some of what is being discussed here (and it really clicks) but a lot of it is going over my head.
It would seem im missing some vital knowledge, as these subjects are rather new to me.
I've been getting a lot from Jonathan Pageau, on my second reading of Mathew Pageaus book and I'm on the third episode of Vervaekes series about the meaning crisis.
Could someone point me in the direction of some reading that might fill in the gaps of my knowledge/ understanding.
I'm on one hell of a journey but at times I feel I've joined in half way through the show.
Thanks for everything John Vervaeke my life is forever altered, forever deeper, forever forever.
Hi Carl, I'm glad to hear all of this! I've been in the place you speak of, and frequently still find myself there. I would recommend finishing Awakening from the Meaning Crisis.
Otherwise, just continue to follow through on books/ content that presents itself to you. All the best 🙏
@@climbingmt.sophia Thank you for your response, I've been thinking a lot about my question here since writing it, along with contemplating the way in which the resources I've already interacted with revealed themselves to me.
Your answer, although perfectly simple, makes a lot of sense and is reassuring, so thank you. 😌🙏
💓
👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏
🙌🏽🌟🙌🏽
There is something strange and inauthentic about the circle-jerky vibe as it appears to me. The arguments are great and the differentiations are wonderful, so I'm sure this impression is in a large part my projection. Its almost as if a certain amount of disagreement is neccecary for me to feel like the discussion is genuine.
Anyone have a link to the paper John referenced?
Ernst Cassirer and Paul Tillich pointed to this propositionally tyrannical use of reason. The former called it "mathematical reason," while the latter named it "technical reason."
36:16 I feel this love stand begs for a real floor (onthonormativity) to be on and afford its power.
57:29 I'm thrilling too David, you are like, webbing a thread of meaning over the thing in itself 🤯.
Trialogos!
Meaning crisis? Because there is no meaning? Seems to me there is no shortage of meaning. "The mind of the average sensual man has, as one of its constituents, something resembling, or identical with the reality substantial to the manifold world" -- Aldous Huxley in The Perennial Philosophy. He and William James both describe how disciplines and practices can help us realize this identity despite or because of the suffering in our lives.
im in no way a academic, but one of the hard consepts left to me as a failed reader is the "iron cage" by Weber... stuff that thing in your pipe and smoke it...
we are fighing deep nihilism here ffs.
PS: i still feel that the objektive observation, and understanding of data of individuals on a collective level is usefull. the shade is that the marked vampires cooped that.
🌚☄️❤️💫
Certainly some are more in the cave than others! Lol...watching shadows on the wall now.
N37⭕️
Could not make out first word.
-------- all the way down and emergence all the way up.
"Emanence" as in emanation/pouring forth, I believe
Exponatiating the imaginary number.
p̳r̳o̳m̳o̳s̳m̳
58:16 Now I understand what it was this mountain hiking 🏔️ thing. Enlightening to my being mode!
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