@@HeatingGeek That's the path to becoming a quality Engineer. If you have the will and the capability. Then making mistakes is the way forward. We can only truly learn from mistakes. Sometimes others mistakes, but mostly our own.
I like the way you dealt with the flue issue, my heart sinks when i find additional issues on a job another engineer has diagnosed. I find trying to explain the situation to the customer can sometimes be the hardest part of the job
Top video Ollie 🔥, your the boss!👋. You are number 1 on TH-cam mate. Are you still planning to do a video on wiring centres? Anyway I can't wait for the next vid mate.👊🌟
Great video Olly. Another thing i do to test the flue integrity is to put the boiler on maximum and test to see if i get any ratio, Co ppm or Co2 % on the air intake 👍🏼
Did that nice jumper come with the matching plastic tub?? Only joking Dude! Absolutely Love watching your videos, Like a real life documentary of our daily working lives, I actually get a frisson of excitement when i get a notification of a new upload...Take Care!
Hi, I have the Ferroli Modena 32C combo and the red seal on the heat exchanger has split at the bottom (6pm on a clock) causing a small but consistent drip. Ferroli don’t have an engineer in my part of Scotland and if they did it probably wouldn’t be repaired under the call out fee for out of warranty. Any guidance on how much I can expect to be charged to get the heat exchanger replaced? Thanks in advance 👍
If the boiler wasn't flat against the wall i would guess it would twist and stress the heat exchanger, and break the seal over time with the heat cycles with that design. great video
I think we should be able to rake the joint out and redo it with red flue silicone. Such a wast to chuck the whole thing for the cheapest part on it to fail. :-)
I used to be a service engineer for Ferroli and used to change these heat exchangers on a regular basis due to that red seal at the back failing and dripping condensate into the casing and rusting it up .. they looked a complete mess and because the gas valve sits on the bottom casing parts of this rusted also ...
@@HeatingGeek me too, biggest problem you have with cheaply made boilers is when it comes to fault finding with a multi meter, you're very restricted at what can be tested
5 Star, makes me wanna stop my electrical job and take up boiler servicing.... Nice work mate. and video skills are not bad either :D, sound levels great too...
@@HeatingGeek Nice design. Stainless steel. *Pity about build quality.* This model has a 16 litres/min combi version, which is very handy in filling baths up nicely. Prefer Intergas which like this Modena, has only 4 moving parts in the combis. Intergas are built like tanks. The highest flowrates is around 14.5 litres/min which could be better, but fine when using Raindance shower heads. The Intergas heat exchanger basically cleans itself. Makers say clean it of course. The Navien heat exchanger does not need cleaning. Well they say that when sold in the USA.
@@TheDickPuller I 'have' heard good reports. The third party components are high quality. Specs on paper are excellent. Build quality _may_ be suspect. Ferroli support was basically a put off as it was so bad. They appear to have got their acts together with some well specced models, over the scrap metal they used to make. Those with greater experience of Ferroli can comment better than me. This vid should not put people off Ferrolis as it was not an appliance fault. I have my doubts that the red heat exchanger seal had actually failed.
Saw a BG gas lad service my mother’s boiler, analyser reading, blow the dust off the case and that was about it, must admit I hate stripping the kebab burners on Worcester’s .
Thats if you can get them out i don't normally bother if it fails the fan test its a new heat exchanger but i do change the burner seal every 4 years i like the worcesters worked on loads
fitted 76 of these boilers but so far every one of them thats needed an exchanger replacement has been under warranty. thanks for the heads up vid. im sure ill be replacing one or two in the future..
Quality video mate. Do you recharge the expansion vessel ? I always do and it helps getting water out of the boiler quicker. What was the flue like ? Was it leaking ? Top class repairs
Quick one, if an appliance shows signs of leaking or spilling you either do all your tests, or turn off cap off until someone qualified can come and work on boiler. Signs of leaking but when you did your flue integrity check it passed, did you at risk it and turn off even though it passed your checks? Interested to know.
I AR to cover my ass. I don't believe it is AR though. The case and flue were still strong and intact soooo :-? Best to leave a bit of paperwork behind. :-)
The new ones are ok. Installers get caught out a lot on them because of relays. But for a cheap boiler they are made well. The old Optimax was a POS.:-)
Lots of things are controlled by PWM, Fan, Circulation Pump. So an oscilloscope can be used for these. A bit of a Dark Art, but worth learning about if you’re working on all modern pre-gas boilers.
@@HeatingGeek can you make a video on the oscilloscope and in relation to a boiler? Where did you learn about this type of testing? It would be my number 1 video to want.....electronics testing and boilers....great
@@TheDickPuller yeh , i love electronics and fixing things but never bought a oscilloscope. ive been close to buying that cheap little pcb one in video. But i wouldnt know what i was looking at on the readouts. Obviously the correct waveform but not sure about it. id love to see a video about it relating to boilers.
This happens to me also. So it was the flue leaking and not the heat exchanger? I changes a divertor(3 way) and it was actually the programmer, had a internal switching fault. it stinks but it happens, what do you do?
@@HeatingGeek So, the water ingress was the flue and not the heat exchanger. The red gasket was holding. If it was leaking from that it would be a case of replacing the red gasket, which is far cheaper than a full heat exchanger.
Great video, like the way you don’t slag off the industry, that boiler as never seen a real service ever. But to slag off previous engineers won’t change a thing and can give our industry a poor reputation. I go to many jobs too where the boilers in the same sort of mess, but just get on with putting it right . Hey ho
Seen them to. Got done for false claims about efficiency. Almost like low loss headers. Love it explained doesn't make sense to me. Susposed to based on physic laws🤔🤔
I bought a new house and it had a dreaded Ferroli Optimax 31c fitted by the builders. Eight years later most of the neighbours on the estate have had theirs swapped, but mine has needed two diverters (one under warranty) and the filling loop is a bit unreliable..so I have a spare in a box..just in case. Otherwise its been just fine....surprisingly perhaps. Yes I am an RGI . The Modena should be a good boiler...in theory, but is beset by silly problems like this one.
As long as you are keeping an eye on the burner seal and tightening the electrodes every year then it will be fine. The problem is without constant yearly maintenance these things will cause the boiler to need early replacement.
Good video. ... Found these red seals are absolutely awful And sounds really unorthodox but every new heatexchanger fitted, I've had to put a nice thin bead of red high temperature sealant ,you can't notice it if its done properly. But it definitely stops it from leaking in future as they're very expensive to change it twice .
@@HeatingGeek Even done an experiment on actual leaking ones and seen if it helped . And it did ..The only ones u can't do is the ones that leak on the right hand side at the back . if only Italy did something like that in the factory eh . And that would be a good boiler for the price .
The head torch is a LED Lenser. I have tried a lot and found this to be the absolute best. Costs quite a lot but I wouldn't buy any other. It takes a standard lipo and lasts ages.
Not being funny but where on the ACS does it say to do a mini tightness test? A test at meter with appliance Isolation valve open is enough, you're a top engineer btw but this test is not necessary imo, will get you more work though as thousands of gas valves will have to be changed lol
Never bad mouth other engineer. Not good for the industry and he may have just missed it. As good as you are you can't say you have got everything right everytime. Only if you know the person is not qualified should you ever take appropriate action.
I try and keep quiet. Maybe he had a really bad day and was running late and his mum was taken ill... You never know what going on. I remember my eldest son had an accident and broke his arm. I had the whole of an Ideal logic on a kitchen floor (including the harness) with the case on the wall. I rushed it. I didn't have any issues but I worked so fast something could have been missed. You never know what the last guy was going through.
We had an older Ferroli Modena, worst boiler I've ever had, it ate circuit boards and fans and they cost a bomb, total, utter junk Flue not covered, you have to laugh at these boiler insurance schemes
Well I think you had every right to throw the previous “GAS SAFE” engineer under the bus that’s how standards are kept high and it weeds out the unscrupulous ones while putting trust in the industry.
![Как устроены швейные машинки? [Veritasium]](/img/n.gif)
Your a quality engineer and a top bloke mate
Just a normal engineer (with a lot of fu:> ups behind me). :-)
@@HeatingGeek That's the path to becoming a quality Engineer. If you have the will and the capability. Then making mistakes is the way forward. We can only truly learn from mistakes. Sometimes others mistakes, but mostly our own.
Always a pleasure to watch a man who knows his craft. Do all manufacturers sub contract out work? The makers men all seem to be staff locally to me.
Not all. I have a good reputation though and it does mean I can get work. :-)
I like the way you dealt with the flue issue, my heart sinks when i find additional issues on a job another engineer has diagnosed. I find trying to explain the situation to the customer can sometimes be the hardest part of the job
Unfortunately for the customer I couldn't fix it. :-(
I know exactly what you mean ... nightmare eh
Actually quite a fiddly job, your experience and diligence is making it look simpler than it is.
Its not that bad tbh. :-)
That looked a reasonably easy job there. Enjoy these videos from start to finish so much better than just seeing a bit of the job 👍👍👍
I always want to cut the ending off. :-) Always seems to get more views if it's shorter.
Thoroughly enjoyed your efforts 😀 thanks for sharing your experience with us ☺️
Yes oli! Sat at home looking after my 2 year old he sat watching fireman sam and I Needed a good vid to watch! Keep it up mate!
I have another couple coming next week. :-)
this channel should be most subscribed heating channel on youtube
I agree with you. HELP me achieve it :-)
Well done mate , another brilliant bit of knowledge acquired, thank you
Top video Ollie 🔥, your the boss!👋. You are number 1 on TH-cam mate. Are you still planning to do a video on wiring centres? Anyway I can't wait for the next vid mate.👊🌟
Eventually I will. Things are getting busier again :-(
Great video Olly. Another thing i do to test the flue integrity is to put the boiler on maximum and test to see if i get any ratio, Co ppm or Co2 % on the air intake 👍🏼
I show that in the video :-) The O2 will also be affected first so it shows up a fault quicker. :-)
On a ‘Flue Integrity Test’ if the O2 is OK( >20.6%) then it’s not being contaminated, as Ollie has said.
I like the way yo work. Fast Confident Responsible. Big fan of you👍
Nice one. Thanks :-) I try to do the best for people. Sometimes "people" is me, but I try to keep that in check. :-)
Did that nice jumper come with the matching plastic tub?? Only joking Dude! Absolutely Love watching your videos, Like a real life documentary of our daily working lives, I actually get a frisson of excitement when i get a notification of a new upload...Take Care!
:-/The jumper is Primark.. Only the best.. I have a job coming that I'm genuinely excited to film. :-)
Make it look easy. Top notch again.👍
It was quite easy. :-)
Hi, I have the Ferroli Modena 32C combo and the red seal on the heat exchanger has split at the bottom (6pm on a clock) causing a small but consistent drip. Ferroli don’t have an engineer in my part of Scotland and if they did it probably wouldn’t be repaired under the call out fee for out of warranty. Any guidance on how much I can expect to be charged to get the heat exchanger replaced? Thanks in advance 👍
Another top vid cheers bud 👏
Thanks :-)
If the boiler wasn't flat against the wall i would guess it would twist and stress the heat exchanger, and break the seal over time with the heat cycles with that design. great video
I think we should be able to rake the joint out and redo it with red flue silicone. Such a wast to chuck the whole thing for the cheapest part on it to fail. :-)
I used to be a service engineer for Ferroli and used to change these heat exchangers on a regular basis due to that red seal at the back failing and dripping condensate into the casing and rusting it up .. they looked a complete mess and because the gas valve sits on the bottom casing parts of this rusted also ...
I was going to ask why the hell would you change a HX on a Ferolli 🤣 but then you said doing work on behalf of Ferolli, awesome video 👍🏻
I like fixing boilers. Any boilers. Hate paperwork and HMRC... Love fixing boilers. :-)
@@HeatingGeek me too, biggest problem you have with cheaply made boilers is when it comes to fault finding with a multi meter, you're very restricted at what can be tested
I used to do warranty calls for ferroli best day of my life when we stopped doing them ,I did get £4 for every scrap boiler though.
5 Star, makes me wanna stop my electrical job and take up boiler servicing.... Nice work mate. and video skills are not bad either :D, sound levels great too...
I never give the sound levels a thought. Often I only find out in the comments. :-)
A leaking Ferroli. What a surprise! :-)
The last couple of models are not bad. :-)
@@HeatingGeek I'll take your word for it ;-)
@@HeatingGeek
Nice design. Stainless steel. *Pity about build quality.* This model has a 16 litres/min combi version, which is very handy in filling baths up nicely.
Prefer Intergas which like this Modena, has only 4 moving parts in the combis. Intergas are built like tanks. The highest flowrates is around 14.5 litres/min which could be better, but fine when using Raindance shower heads.
The Intergas heat exchanger basically cleans itself. Makers say clean it of course.
The Navien heat exchanger does not need cleaning. Well they say that when sold in the USA.
I think the new Modena is OK, hearing fairly good reports👍
@@TheDickPuller
I 'have' heard good reports. The third party components are high quality. Specs on paper are excellent. Build quality _may_ be suspect. Ferroli support was basically a put off as it was so bad. They appear to have got their acts together with some well specced models, over the scrap metal they used to make. Those with greater experience of Ferroli can comment better than me.
This vid should not put people off Ferrolis as it was not an appliance fault. I have my doubts that the red heat exchanger seal had actually failed.
Saw a BG gas lad service my mother’s boiler, analyser reading, blow the dust off the case and that was about it, must admit I hate stripping the kebab burners on Worcester’s .
Thats if you can get them out i don't normally bother if it fails the fan test its a new heat exchanger but i do change the burner seal every 4 years i like the worcesters worked on loads
Why don’t you work on your mother’s boiler if you have time to stand around and watch?
Another awesome video mr geek! Flues not been fitted correctly not a boiler issue but installer issue, are the heat exchangers common to leak?
I have done a couple so far.
fitted 76 of these boilers but so far every one of them thats needed an exchanger replacement has been under warranty. thanks for the heads up vid. im sure ill be replacing one or two in the future..
Ferroli do try and help their customers out. :-)
Ferroli like complete paperwork for warranty work....so benchmark and service records need to be in order.
They all do benchmark not filled in get out for warranty for most of them
Nice video,thanks for sharing your experience
Thanks for commenting. Stay safe. :-)
Thanks another brilliant video enjoyed it
It was an easy job too. :-)
Another cracking video mate
Thanks. :-)
What did you do with the old exchanger? Would be good to see a cross cut section of the pipe in pipe
This one wasn't pipe in pipe. :-)
Great vid again.... Just an observation did you ldf the gas fiber washer? I have always been advised not to as it causes it to swell and then contract
It does do this. :-) But I still LDF the joint straight away and check. :-)
Quality video mate.
Do you recharge the expansion vessel ? I always do and it helps getting water out of the boiler quicker.
What was the flue like ? Was it leaking ?
Top class repairs
Yes I do. :-)
Better than watching Britain's got talent 👍
I would rather be doing the job, than watching Britain's Got Talent. :-)
Hello mate same ferolli f24 domi condens boiler not suppling any water from hot taps any ideas what’s wrong with it
Get an engineer to come and have a look at it. :-)
Quick one, if an appliance shows signs of leaking or spilling you either do all your tests, or turn off cap off until someone qualified can come and work on boiler. Signs of leaking but when you did your flue integrity check it passed, did you at risk it and turn off even though it passed your checks? Interested to know.
I AR to cover my ass. I don't believe it is AR though. The case and flue were still strong and intact soooo :-? Best to leave a bit of paperwork behind. :-)
HeatingGeek agree 100%
A Ferroli and a Magic Box - someone saw those customers coming from a different time zone. Jesus wept.
I know. Terrible isnt it. :-(
@@HeatingGeek just got to the end and heard the lady..... Another pensioner robbed of >£5k. Makes me sick.
Is it vw kombi van? Just thinking of buying one of those.
Yes. It isn't big enough. :-) You can get by.
What's that other tool bag you have? Thanks
Which one? I use 2 every day.
@@HeatingGeek Not the one you've done the video on.
Ollie. What is your opinion of Ferolli boilers?
The new ones are ok. Installers get caught out a lot on them because of relays. But for a cheap boiler they are made well. The old Optimax was a POS.:-)
excellent as always
Thank you! :-)
On the intro? Where and what have you been using the little oscilloscope for? Im sure ive asked you before?
A Keston fan. I lost a lot of the footage so the video never made it. :-(
Lots of things are controlled by PWM, Fan, Circulation Pump. So an oscilloscope can be used for these. A bit of a Dark Art, but worth learning about if you’re working on all modern pre-gas boilers.
@@TheDickPuller pre-gas?
@@HeatingGeek can you make a video on the oscilloscope and in relation to a boiler? Where did you learn about this type of testing? It would be my number 1 video to want.....electronics testing and boilers....great
@@TheDickPuller yeh , i love electronics and fixing things but never bought a oscilloscope. ive been close to buying that cheap little pcb one in video. But i wouldnt know what i was looking at on the readouts. Obviously the correct waveform but not sure about it. id love to see a video about it relating to boilers.
i used to live near Borehamwood. Stanmore
I use Borehamwood because it has great road links. :-)
This happens to me also. So it was the flue leaking and not the heat exchanger? I changes a divertor(3 way) and it was actually the programmer, had a internal switching fault. it stinks but it happens, what do you do?
I was being paid to replace this part. So I did :-)
@@HeatingGeek
So, the water ingress was the flue and not the heat exchanger. The red gasket was holding. If it was leaking from that it would be a case of replacing the red gasket, which is far cheaper than a full heat exchanger.
@@johnburns4017 yeh, the hex didnt look very good anyway? full of shale etc?? dirty dirty
@@johnburns4017 No because you can't get the gasket. :-) You have to replace the whole heat exchanger. ;-)
@@HeatingGeek
ooops But was it actually leaking?
Great video, like the way you don’t slag off the industry, that boiler as never seen a real service ever.
But to slag off previous engineers won’t change a thing and can give our industry a poor reputation.
I go to many jobs too where the boilers in the same sort of mess, but just get on with putting it right .
Hey ho
Exactly. :-)
Magic fella always interesting, stay lucky 😉
I will try. You too. :-)
Whats the magic box about then? You saying you dont want to mention it makes me want to know lol. Keep up the great videos mate
Have a google. :-) literally called a magic box for a heating system. :-)
Seen them to. Got done for false claims about efficiency. Almost like low loss headers. Love it explained doesn't make sense to me. Susposed to based on physic laws🤔🤔
I bought a new house and it had a dreaded Ferroli Optimax 31c fitted by the builders. Eight years later most of the neighbours on the estate have had theirs swapped, but mine has needed two diverters (one under warranty) and the filling loop is a bit unreliable..so I have a spare in a box..just in case. Otherwise its been just fine....surprisingly perhaps. Yes I am an RGI . The Modena should be a good boiler...in theory, but is beset by silly problems like this one.
As long as you are keeping an eye on the burner seal and tightening the electrodes every year then it will be fine. The problem is without constant yearly maintenance these things will cause the boiler to need early replacement.
How did u gain your knowledge too
By doing it every day. :-) Just wanted to learn. Trying to work stuff out.
What is ntc's ?, Is it something? Temperature sensor! 😳
Yes. Its a temperature sensor.
What a ballache. Bet you were glad after that mate. Well done that was fine engineering at its best.
Thanks, I like the boilers to be fair. I like most boilers.
Good video. ... Found these red seals are absolutely awful And sounds really unorthodox but every new heatexchanger fitted, I've had to put a nice thin bead of red high temperature sealant ,you can't notice it if its done properly. But it definitely stops it from leaking in future as they're very expensive to change it twice .
That's a good idea. I would do it in my house where I can keep an eye on it. :-)
@@HeatingGeek Even done an experiment on actual leaking ones and seen if it helped . And it did ..The only ones u can't do is the ones that leak on the right hand side at the back . if only Italy did something like that in the factory eh . And that would be a good boiler for the price .
Is it really viable replacing main hex? Arnt they expensive? Add that to time , effort and labour it will become expensive
Insurance. Costs someone but not the customer. :-)
hi im sure i know you from some where what school did you go to
FCH in north london.
good job thank you 👍
Thanks for watching it. :-)
Nice job you forgot to check the expansion vessel 😉😜
I realised that while editing... I don't often forget. :-)
@@HeatingGeek@15:49 "Too much work, too little time" probably had something to do with it! ;-)
Another example of quality 'drive by servicing' by British Gas.
And Corgi. :-) Pay peanuts get ....
Hi mate well done
Good job as usual but ..
I would v to say the flue is a fail ..
why. :-)
Am positive u well aware of A list of why s wrong with it my man ..
You are amazzzzzzzing
Hi Oli you mentioned a local TT on the boiler, is this conducted over two mins, the same as a standard?
Also what brand is your head torch?
The head torch is a LED Lenser. I have tried a lot and found this to be the absolute best. Costs quite a lot but I wouldn't buy any other. It takes a standard lipo and lasts ages.
I live in Borehamwood , Giza job
Leaking condense does so much damage
It does. how the others missed it???
Did a vaillant the other day with a split condense hose leak has completely eaten through the support bracket
That was a high CO reading at minimum.? Never had one that high. Or is it just the Quality boiler 😂.Good vid though.👍🏻
Its the bug-eye burner. :-)
Just the ‘newness’ burning off the new heat ex. Settles after an hour of normal running.
Flue seals go a lot i allways look for that either tip water down the flue or your analyser
Someone miss this one though...:-)
@@HeatingGeek yes best to tip water down the flue then you can see it
Nothing worse than a old leaking part in a cardboard box in the van! 🤣
Yep. How to ruin good tools. :-)
Cheers for the video. Hate these boilers. Will definitely make sure I check for flue leaks first!😁
Always look above. :-)
So only condensate was driping from this?
Yes. :-)
Not being funny but where on the ACS does it say to do a mini tightness test? A test at meter with appliance Isolation valve open is enough, you're a top engineer btw but this test is not necessary imo, will get you more work though as thousands of gas valves will have to be changed lol
The mini makes passing GV obvious. I don't do them all the time. Forget going looking for problems. If I find one I find it.
Wast of time, money, and energy on those horrible boilers, false economy repair.
Not for the customer. :-)
Piss poor cheap boilers.
@@stealthbomberbaby
The boiler never failed apparently.
When you AT RISK'd it did the customer give you permission to turn it off ?
I just turn it off in front of them. "I'm just going to turn this off" You can turn it back on at your own risk. Really simple. Never had a problem.
Think that would start argument in empty pub ar when all readings OK do it myself but others not
She sounded like proper Londoner. Must be the last one left!
In Essex :-) But yep. :-)
I was expecting her to burst out in a chorus of boiled beef & carrots :)
AHH the customers reaction seems very familiar
Yep.:-)
Hardest part of the job is to get the costomer to trust what you.
Sometimes.:-)
Who would actually fit and recommend Ferroli. Still they keep me busy I would be poorer without them but still I would not have one if given to me
Never bad mouth other engineer. Not good for the industry and he may have just missed it. As good as you are you can't say you have got everything right everytime. Only if you know the person is not qualified should you ever take appropriate action.
I try and keep quiet. Maybe he had a really bad day and was running late and his mum was taken ill... You never know what going on. I remember my eldest son had an accident and broke his arm. I had the whole of an Ideal logic on a kitchen floor (including the harness) with the case on the wall. I rushed it. I didn't have any issues but I worked so fast something could have been missed. You never know what the last guy was going through.
I';d love to see your financials at some point, lots of great content but are you making money of each and every service/repair.
No i'm not. I fix stuff. I'm not a good business person at all. :-) I do these jobs for the love of the old boilers.
modern boilers have way too many plastic components
And cars and everything.
If your lock up is anywhere near Hartforde road borehamwood call in and see my sister at Sam's bakery if you need to eat see is the owner there
It's on the A1 just of the M25. I don't know the area very well. I will keep an eye out. :-)
Just dash the exchanger on ya tools
Then. Lol mate
Did ya not get paid ? Or just too damn tired
Good video though
Genius. Typical.
:-)
The third party components on this are quality. Honeywell, etc. A shame about the rest of it.
All parts are third party. Except for logos and case. :-)
@@HeatingGeek
Who makes the heat exchanger? It looks like a Gianoni, but no other manufacturers fit the tube in tube type.
We had an older Ferroli Modena, worst boiler I've ever had, it ate circuit boards and fans and they cost a bomb, total, utter junk
Flue not covered, you have to laugh at these boiler insurance schemes
:-) No comment.:-)
You are joking ,it needs ripping out .
Nah, Keeps paying me to fix it then gets replaced.
Well I think you had every right to throw the previous “GAS SAFE” engineer under the bus that’s how standards are kept high and it weeds out the unscrupulous ones while putting trust in the industry.
I think big companies who use contractors should be held accountable for the lies and cheating that takes place.
Not worth swopping
It cost the customer nothing soooooo I think they wanted it done ;-)
I bet heat exchanger cost more then boiler did originally.!
The “Poke and Go” from BG is only going to get worse with how the company is changing.
Yep. They have lost all respect from all their engineers.