Not to hate or anything, just a minor nitpick. Where did you read that said that Svelte comes form the French "svelt"? In French, it is still "svelte", with the "e". That's besides the point. I can't find any mention of it being derived from the French word, like with Vue. I can however find one Hacker News thread from Rich Harris that says it's actually derived from the ITALIAN word, "svelto". Of course, again, this is the most minor of nitpicks, because French got it from Italian in the first place, but was just curious nonetheless.
Svelte has the easiest onboarding experience I've ever had with a framework. I actually barely had to read the docs, I just skimmed it a bit for literally like 1-2 minutes and then started coding. When I was unsure about syntax, I'd just kinda guess, and 90% of the time I was right. It felt so intuitive. My first 20-30 hours was fantastic - I was building a relatively complex app and was having a breeze. But then the honeymoon ended when I hit a snag with their reactive model, and my brain melted for several hours. There are some extremely unintuitive things about how Svelte reactivity works. But still, overall it's a fantastic framework.
@@hamza_dev I would assume they are doing plain old HTML, CSS and JavaScript to begin with. The thing about Svelte is that you're basically just writing JavaScript for the most part.
3:20 I thought it was only me finding Svelte’s tutorial so satisfying since I’m not a SE and I’m learning software engineering just for fun, but turns out professionals have the same thought!
React is so complicated to write and my ADHD brain forgets the main thread of what I was doing if I take a sidelane walk like using useEffect and while diving deeper. Svelte could actually save my time and be easy/fun to achieve my goal.
I personally started with page builders lol, and never intended to become a web developer. Then I transitioned to coding with Astro, where eventually I started writing in svelte syntax, and finally switched to completely to svelte.
It was an excellent progression and I gradually became more and more aware of all the abstractions I was working with. Can't imagine how difficult that would be for someone starting with React or Nextjs from the get go...
Hey. This is a good take! Vue used to be React without jobs. Everything evolves, and even if worse techologies stick, sometimes new (and better) gets some space, atenttion and jobs.
@@erickmoya1401and the others new framework will evolve too or maybe much better. at this moment Vue and React still dominance , just take it as job for now, take opportunity in front of us first 😂 But don't worry .. If svelte will better or high demand in future I will learn/or use it. when the time is come
I think Vue is underrated, Vue is very easy to use and is even easier than svelte, you can even use vue without a build step and put it directly in your html if you want, even the composable api, making it even easier for beginners while retaining all the power
100%. Svelte is awesome, but there's a reason they call it SvelteScript. It is it's own unique DSL. Vue is only technically a DSL because of SFC. In reality Vue is by design just completely plain JS, HTML,CSS. Additional Vue stuff like directives are just plain html attributes, no different than any other html attributes. Vue reactivity is just JS functions. The only reason you even need compilation at all is just for SFC. If that's confusing then just start without SFC and you can use Vue in plain .html files instead using all the same vanilla patterns juniors start out with.
i write backend mostly but to show what i did to my friends they care a ton about ui since its what they see, it helps that i can write some ui using a ui library/daisyui and svelte instead of smth hard.
Nobody actually thinks React is good for beginners (or anybody really) unless the have Stockholm Syndrome. React was just one of the first, not the best. I might try Svelte or HTMX but I'm pretty happy with Vue already. Although it does get uncomfortably complex when I have to use SSR for SEO purposes which makes me want to go back to static websites.
Being a Svelte usee, when I hear people use other than react is nothing to be worried or care about. But when I hear people advocating for react without other reason that "everybody does it and facebook" is kind of annoying. We had a hard time getting rid of Java everywhere (and we are not even half way there) because of the same stockolm people.
Totally agree, svelte is the best place to start because it's the closer to vanilla js syntax and it easily integrates with everything that was built for vanilla js. React on the other hand is a very "closed" ecosystem and practically inacessible from any other framework.
Svelte is what made web dev finally click for me. I think it's partly the presentation/interactive teaching, and partly the framework semantics. 1). The interactive tutorial IS amazing, and the REPL is a great place to prototype and play for anyone. 2) Svelte simplifies and streamlines a lot of the issues beginners deal with (DOM manipulation, data binding, scoping CSS, build/dev tools, etc.) and lets you use terse syntax to just MAKE STUFF. 3). Opinionated frameworks --ones with a specific/singular way to do something, like naming or routing-- are inherently easier to learn. 4) There are still "gotchas" in complex Svelte apps, but they're actually getting fixed and improved with new versions. There's something to be said for the strength of the community, and the energy of the maintainers. Rich Harris embodies "It doesn't have to be hard -- we can do it better!"
Svelte really is just better for beginners. It is so much easier to pick up and understand. Achieves the same thing as other frameworks in a much simpler way. I started with Vue which was good but Svelte kind of just feels like a better version.
As javascript frameworks go, I think Svelte is probably the better one in general. However, it suffers from the same tool chain problems. Sure, you can follow the tutorial and get things running, but do you actually understand what it's doing? If you're just starting out, probably not which will be incredibly frustrating when things go wrong and you don't know why. Another drawback for me was that my front end was one project while the back end was a different project. This created this weird split in our team as some were front end and others were back end and a lot of time went into just keeping these 2 projects in sync which was something we only realized after we moved away from this structure. This is what makes HTMX, and concepts like HTMX, so great. There's no front end project templates, no setup, and no build step... it's a vanilla JS library you add to your page and that's your front end setup done. Here and there you write a little bit of vanilla JS, but it really is almost nothing. You are left with pretty much just the back end and a single project and your team is no longer split in 2 as everyone is now working on the same project as just 1 team. HTMX, or concepts like it, is not the answer to everything, but you will be very surprised how often it is and it's fantastic.
When I was starting out, I tried React. I got tired of that garbage after a week and never touched it again. Then I tried out Svelte and are now snorting it like a true addict.
@@cyberdron JSX, hooks and React itself. Please tell me - Does a frontend framework (a state management tool) that requires a state management library to be any useful do it's job properly? - This is absurd. Choosing React is an equivalent of buying a hammer and nails to build a house, but then it turns out the nails were actually screws you must now file straight to use with a hammer, or buy a drill to solve the issue your first tool came with - Then it goes like this forever and ever.
@@shapelessed Isn't that the philosophy of react? It is a LIBRARY that offers the base building blocks and let you chose the tools you use with it. That for Rendering the Dom and also for state management. Not every project needs the same state solution - some prefer heavier stuff like redux, other prefer atoms, signals or other do their state management with the url. By not forcing something to be the default people can chose their solution. Same reason why rendering the dom is a seperate package. How about using the vdom of react to render mails or 3d stuff? Use another package instead
With runes, though, it comes oddly close to react. You don't have to manage dependency arrays, sure, but with React Compiler, you don't need to do that either.
Coming from a foundation of vanilla HTML,CSS,JS before a lot of these frameworks existed (and jQuery.. The lords library), I tried to pick up React 4 times over the past 5 years. Every single time I picked it up, I would look at the concepts and just think "what.." I just started using Svelte and Sveltekit. Comfortable using it in a week. It is as simple as using something like jQuery back in the day. It exposes you to the benefits without ramming ideological conformity down your throat. Big fan. I'll comfortably say that React is one of the worst things to happen to front-end development. Never again. Svelte has been a pleasure to use.
So, in Svelt, when we define let a = 0, svelt knows that a is a number, so it will convert a string to a number in bind:value="a"? Yeah, Java is difficult but everything is difficult: I'm ok with Java and now I'm learning Rust, I want to write in Rust whatever I can write in Java and then I realize that there's a lot of things to learn when you learn something new.
Been a Vue fan since 2.0 and used Svelte for a recent project. Everything seemed "awesome"... till I started building more complex reactive pages. Then I cried myself to sleep and wished I would have stuck with Vue.
If there's one thing I've learned in the frontend world over my 5 years in the industry: trust Evan You when it comes to frontend. The man is a powerhouse and a visionary of UI APIs. I have less experience with Rich Harris, but from the little I've seen of his work, he's not as experienced and battle tested as Evan You. There's a reason Vue is as successful as it is without any big tech money backing. It's beyond great.
The "vanilla syntax" of Svelte is easy, but also bad. Because it's compiler magic. It's not "vanilla" at all. The fact that you need to use hooks in React makes very explicit what happens in a React component. If I were to suggest something both easy and better in general I would go with solid. Their signals are easy to understand but a lot more explicit.
I like Svelte because it was developed as a tool, not more. React nowadays is more of a religion, and being vitally devoted to technology is not healthy.
I’m curious about your opinion on Vue3. I tried it a little bit a few months ago and it felt quite intuitive after knowing a little bit of HTML, CSS and JavaScript. I don’t have a comparison to be fair, but the composition API felt nice to use
Vue is awesome. In fact I would say that the article prime is reading would be more true if they switched Svelte with Vue. Because Vue by design is much closer to the plain web languages than Svelte is. Svelte is much more of its own language
@@samuelmorkbednarzkepler Consider I tried no other framework before, I barely touched some HTML, CSS and javascript, I really liked how Vue put the 3 together very naturally in each file. Also the routing is very nice. I currently work with python and technically I use dash as a “framework” at my job, but it’s complete shit imo
Elm made returning to react completely impossible. I think svelte has a similar sort of cheerful delightfulness to use, much like Elm. I’ve been super lucky to always finding elm gigs and I think Svelte will likely be similar regarding job scarcity.
I followed a 40+ hr react udemy course to learn it. My bootcamp taught me Vue. I learned Svelte and it was the easiest probably because I'm just a lot better as a dev now, but no doubt it was simple simple simple. You can't make me use React in my free time. No matter how complicated the app, I never miss React. Two different tools with pros and cons, nothing is perfect. But I also don't think I'm becoming a worse developer because of using svelte. People normally hire you for being able to get shit done. I dont think it would take me too long to pick react back up and work in it professionally. But you could offer 2 jobs, 100k for react, and 95k for svelte, and id pick svelte for the sake of my sanity.
I'm super new 36 yo male. Unemployed. Living with my parents. I'm still new to this life because I still don't know how to socialize and make friends and why people stay away from me. Hope by learning coding I can change my financial situation and fulfill my lifelong dream - to create my own tech startup 😊
Well, coding is quite a solitary endeavor so ya... I just don't think it will help with the "socialization" thing too much, nor meeting too many new people! For that, instead: You'll have to get out of your comfort zone and attend meetings at social clubs--the type of clubs you would never normally consider joining, like say... culinary arts clubs, acting-theater club, book-reading-discussion clubs, learning to dance clubs, etc... And/or you'll need to attend events you normally wouldn't attend, like some museums, plays, art-exhibits, performances, etc... Just go, and try to talk to at least one or two strangers/people during the outing. You can admit you're shy if it helps, and admit it's your first time attending such an event! You can say something to the effect that you've never gone before, but you always had an interest in XYZ--even if you never really had an interest in XYZ just say you did, to break the ice--and then explain you just wanted to check out a meeting or two (or exhibit or performance, whatever the case may be) to see what it was like. Sometimes it will go badly! And you'll think, "Wow! That was a real waste of time! I shouldn't have come here!" And if it's going really (really) badly then no worries! Just shrug, take off, go back home, and sulk by binge-watching some fun TV shows or movies, and ordering/eating your favorite food as a consolation prize! (Have a back up consolation prize ready, in case the outing goes bad and you decide to leave.) But other times it will actually go great! And gradually you'll just simply get better and better at meeting new people this way, and might end up with a new set of amazing friends! And finally, there's also nothing wrong with also wanting introverted time to yourself, doing introverted stuff like computer programming. Do that as well, and don't give up on your alone time! But... at the same time: you also need some socialization time! But that will only happen if you purposely work on it, and walk out the front door sometimes on adventures, and just get out there!
Sup Prime, your reading skills are growing blazingly fast, also I am learning programming for three years yet didn't get any clue what's going on when I'm working with react and Typescript is a struggle but testing react is real pain for me
Svelte is really good for beginners; at least it does not rob you of any joy of programming and leave you as an empty shell of your former self as some other frameworks do. But for all it's simplicity it gets complex and hacky really fast too, if you build so much as a little more advanced crud application. It has an implicit control flow which gets really hard to follow after a while.
I haven't tried Svelte, but I think the big reason why such basic examples are much easier on Selte/ htmx/angular is because they have magic "bind:value" which complex stuff under the hood. And in React you do it explicitly
Some tools are white magic. Some are dark wtf magic. React is the second. Svelte abstractions are well built, you have a lot under the hood, but you know the kind.
This won't really be the case with Svelte 5 Runes. Now I am unsure to even recommend Svelte now. I'm just now wrapped my head around runes and it's not so bad. But now it feels just like every other frontend JavaScript library with boilerplate code. The magic and simplicity doesn't feel there anymore. Learning runes took effort when Svelte 3 and 4 just made sense right off the bat. I'm a bit worried at the direction. But I see the pros of runes.
I think HTMX is quite hard to grasp. since you are dealing with both backend and frontend at the same time but not really. it really efficient but you need to understand what you can and can't do and how to do it, for frontend frameworks it's a lot easier to plan in your head what is happening and how you will make it.
Do people just learn Svelte for hobby projects, or do freelancers do client work In Svelte? Where is it used commercially? Not trying to sound pedantic. I'm a beginner developer not sure what Frontend framework to learn 😅
i think even spotify wrapped used svelte. there was a video by a channel called "joy of code" which showed all the companies that use svelte. apple music, spotify (for wrapped), new york times, ikea, etc
I push beginners to Astro. It's just easier to grasp certain concepts. From there, either Svelte or Vue are good for leveling up. I wouldn't push new devs to React unless they really need, or are required, to go there.
Wait you are 37? I knew you were on the "older" side in terms of content creators but I would have guessed you 32 max. I really hope I will be as cool as you when I'll be 37
Htmx, however great, is terrible for beginners because it's just the frontend. What are you sending your requests off to? Now you have to learn go, flask, node, php or whatever too.
I am a python script kiddie (and language model researcher).... And my only Frontend experience is with a python package called gradio. And I really don't like it. As I understand it, it's build upon Svelte.
Is something "for beginners" if its a more intuitive and easier to read framework than others? This does not make sense to me. Everyone should choose a framework he can work best with. Doesnt matter if you are a beginner or expert. I genuely love Svelte because i can spin up a complex web application in no time while keeping readability and simplicity which makes me very happy. Thats all that matters
I think your misinterpreting the message. they arn't saying "only beginners should use svelte" or "if you use svelte you're a beginner" they're saying "if you're a beginner Svelte is easier to learn than react"
Does react deviate from traditional UI development?....like react has been around for almost half the time you could even associate "tradition" with however anyone was doing it.
Because the market for beginners is the biggest, also this is the rare prime video that is focused on beginners so I wouldnt say he is 'pumping' them out
You should learn React first. At least if you intend to use it. React becomes absolutely impossible (emotionally) after learning Svelte. I'm currently involved in a React project and hate each and every moment of it with a fiery passion of a billion suns, because I am aware how much easier and better everything could be. The only good thing about this project is that It's given me daily opportunities to complain to my employer and communicate with every estimate the difference in time and complexity in comparison to Svelte which eventually led to new projects being Svelte based. Once you
How can that svelte code be better. “Bind” directive is totally alien to a beginner. How would they make sense of it?. Meanwhile react code has state, state is literally the only primitive react asks you to understand, the rest of the things like onachange are the same event handlers as usual
All these frameworks are the same... It doesn't matter what you pick, they all do the same thing. I could write the same website in Fresh, Next, Solid, Vue, Kit...
Instead of starting with svelte or some framework, why don't you just start with JavaScript if you're going to write JavaScript. I'm so sick of these framework wars and the people who learn JS by learning a framework first. Svelte is worse because you have a compiled language that isn't the same as JS, which means that you're going to get beginners who see vanilla JS as a different language.
Downside to starting with Svelte is when you eventually have to learn React, you’re going to start hating coding because it’s just not as nice to write 🤣
1. It's only easier to read when you know it. 2. I enjoy writing React, you can enjoy writing Svlte 3. Both seemed simple to me The React code is more explicit about its data flow, that's why I use React and why I recommend it to all beginners.
There are parts of Svelte that highjack JavaScript. Keywords like "export" and "let" don't operate the same way inside a ".svelte" file as they do in an ".js" or ".ts" file. The cost of it looking like plain JavaScript is it doesn't behave like JavaScript. So if you don't know how Svelte works, it's not clear what is component state until you find the variable in the template. FWIW, Svelte has acknowledged this problem, which is why they're introducing runes.
All these javascript frameworks seem to be written by either highschool kids or very young adults. Anyone ever bother to look at the most likely horrendous code beneath it all?
My Take about tis topic: Svelte is bad for beginners. Everyone keeps telling that Svelte is closer to the basics - meanwhile its doing constantly very abstracted magic to look like easy stuff. Meanwhile its hallucinating its own syntax that is distached from pure javascript. People hate react for doing exactly that - doing magic stuff while abstracting stuff away and having its 'own' syntax
replace svelte with vue in this article and it is correct. Vue is entirely vanilla html, js, and css. No compilter magic. Can even be used without a build step.
Thanks for reading my article Prime! ❤
I hope everyone has svelte on their New Year’s resolution
Unfortunately Svelte5 will not so simple :( but anyway I hope it will be good. (After Svelte1 nothing is scary)
Imagine by the time 2025 rolls up we have 7 billion svelte developers lol
Not to hate or anything, just a minor nitpick. Where did you read that said that Svelte comes form the French "svelt"? In French, it is still "svelte", with the "e". That's besides the point. I can't find any mention of it being derived from the French word, like with Vue. I can however find one Hacker News thread from Rich Harris that says it's actually derived from the ITALIAN word, "svelto". Of course, again, this is the most minor of nitpicks, because French got it from Italian in the first place, but was just curious nonetheless.
it wasnt on mine yet, but it sure is now
Ain't no one getting a shit without 20 years of experience and contributing to 50 open source projects@@dontreadmyusername6787
Svelte has the easiest onboarding experience I've ever had with a framework. I actually barely had to read the docs, I just skimmed it a bit for literally like 1-2 minutes and then started coding. When I was unsure about syntax, I'd just kinda guess, and 90% of the time I was right. It felt so intuitive.
My first 20-30 hours was fantastic - I was building a relatively complex app and was having a breeze. But then the honeymoon ended when I hit a snag with their reactive model, and my brain melted for several hours. There are some extremely unintuitive things about how Svelte reactivity works.
But still, overall it's a fantastic framework.
Agreed, however Svelte 5 looks to solve some of those issues.
@@SeanBracks nice! I haven't looked at it, will check it out.
Yaaas! Svelte 5 FTW! 🎉
I had the same experience largely due to my brain still thinking in the React way which is thinking about reactivity in terms of components not data
Could you elaborate more on the snag you hit? It would be interesting to hear an experienced Dev's perspective
I work for a school that is starting a web development class for beginners in a week. We are using Svelte for exactly the reasons Cameron explained.
Don't you think that it would be better to start with plain HTML, CSS, and JavaScript instead of diving right into a framework?
@@hamza_dev I would assume they are doing plain old HTML, CSS and JavaScript to begin with. The thing about Svelte is that you're basically just writing JavaScript for the most part.
@@CottidaeSEA Yeah, hopefully progressing from prototypical to es6 to jquery to svelte with algos and ds sprinkled throughout daily
@@liftingisfun2350 jQuery seems unnecessary, do you have any particular reason why you think it should be in there?
3:20 I thought it was only me finding Svelte’s tutorial so satisfying since I’m not a SE and I’m learning software engineering just for fun, but turns out professionals have the same thought!
React is so complicated to write and my ADHD brain forgets the main thread of what I was doing if I take a sidelane walk like using useEffect and while diving deeper. Svelte could actually save my time and be easy/fun to achieve my goal.
I like them a lot too, tbh only complaint is just the them of the editor lol, but I'm just nitpicking
I personally started with page builders lol, and never intended to become a web developer. Then I transitioned to coding with Astro, where eventually I started writing in svelte syntax, and finally switched to completely to svelte.
It was an excellent progression and I gradually became more and more aware of all the abstractions I was working with. Can't imagine how difficult that would be for someone starting with React or Nextjs from the get go...
Svelte(Kit) was my first (and only) framework, and can confirm, it's been an excellent tool for a relative beginner.
HOT TAKE: Svelte is just Vue but without jobs
HAHAHA
Vue is also just Svelte with jobs
Hey. This is a good take!
Vue used to be React without jobs.
Everything evolves, and even if worse techologies stick, sometimes new (and better) gets some space, atenttion and jobs.
@@erickmoya1401and the others new framework will evolve too or maybe much better. at this moment Vue and React still dominance , just take it as job for now, take opportunity in front of us first 😂
But don't worry .. If svelte will better or high demand in future I will learn/or use it. when the time is come
I think Vue is underrated, Vue is very easy to use and is even easier than svelte, you can even use vue without a build step and put it directly in your html if you want, even the composable api, making it even easier for beginners while retaining all the power
100%. Svelte is awesome, but there's a reason they call it SvelteScript. It is it's own unique DSL. Vue is only technically a DSL because of SFC. In reality Vue is by design just completely plain JS, HTML,CSS. Additional Vue stuff like directives are just plain html attributes, no different than any other html attributes. Vue reactivity is just JS functions. The only reason you even need compilation at all is just for SFC. If that's confusing then just start without SFC and you can use Vue in plain .html files instead using all the same vanilla patterns juniors start out with.
You can use every framework without a build step.
i write backend mostly but to show what i did to my friends they care a ton about ui since its what they see,
it helps that i can write some ui using a ui library/daisyui and svelte instead of smth hard.
Nobody actually thinks React is good for beginners (or anybody really) unless the have Stockholm Syndrome. React was just one of the first, not the best.
I might try Svelte or HTMX but I'm pretty happy with Vue already.
Although it does get uncomfortably complex when I have to use SSR for SEO purposes which makes me want to go back to static websites.
Being a Svelte usee, when I hear people use other than react is nothing to be worried or care about. But when I hear people advocating for react without other reason that "everybody does it and facebook" is kind of annoying. We had a hard time getting rid of Java everywhere (and we are not even half way there) because of the same stockolm people.
One of the first? Gen alpha spotted lol
been a hardcore svelte enjoyer since 2020. I love Primes love for it.
Totally agree, svelte is the best place to start because it's the closer to vanilla js syntax and it easily integrates with everything that was built for vanilla js. React on the other hand is a very "closed" ecosystem and practically inacessible from any other framework.
I started with svelte as beginer,... and i'm happy that I don't need react :D
Svelte is what made web dev finally click for me. I think it's partly the presentation/interactive teaching, and partly the framework semantics.
1). The interactive tutorial IS amazing, and the REPL is a great place to prototype and play for anyone.
2) Svelte simplifies and streamlines a lot of the issues beginners deal with (DOM manipulation, data binding, scoping CSS, build/dev tools, etc.) and lets you use terse syntax to just MAKE STUFF.
3). Opinionated frameworks --ones with a specific/singular way to do something, like naming or routing-- are inherently easier to learn.
4) There are still "gotchas" in complex Svelte apps, but they're actually getting fixed and improved with new versions. There's something to be said for the strength of the community, and the energy of the maintainers. Rich Harris embodies "It doesn't have to be hard -- we can do it better!"
Here I fixed your title: "Svelte is better."
Svelte really is just better for beginners. It is so much easier to pick up and understand. Achieves the same thing as other frameworks in a much simpler way. I started with Vue which was good but Svelte kind of just feels like a better version.
As javascript frameworks go, I think Svelte is probably the better one in general. However, it suffers from the same tool chain problems. Sure, you can follow the tutorial and get things running, but do you actually understand what it's doing? If you're just starting out, probably not which will be incredibly frustrating when things go wrong and you don't know why.
Another drawback for me was that my front end was one project while the back end was a different project. This created this weird split in our team as some were front end and others were back end and a lot of time went into just keeping these 2 projects in sync which was something we only realized after we moved away from this structure.
This is what makes HTMX, and concepts like HTMX, so great. There's no front end project templates, no setup, and no build step... it's a vanilla JS library you add to your page and that's your front end setup done. Here and there you write a little bit of vanilla JS, but it really is almost nothing. You are left with pretty much just the back end and a single project and your team is no longer split in 2 as everyone is now working on the same project as just 1 team.
HTMX, or concepts like it, is not the answer to everything, but you will be very surprised how often it is and it's fantastic.
When I was starting out, I tried React. I got tired of that garbage after a week and never touched it again.
Then I tried out Svelte and are now snorting it like a true addict.
what is wrong with React?
@@cyberdron JSX, hooks and React itself.
Please tell me - Does a frontend framework (a state management tool) that requires a state management library to be any useful do it's job properly? - This is absurd. Choosing React is an equivalent of buying a hammer and nails to build a house, but then it turns out the nails were actually screws you must now file straight to use with a hammer, or buy a drill to solve the issue your first tool came with - Then it goes like this forever and ever.
@@shapelessed Isn't that the philosophy of react? It is a LIBRARY that offers the base building blocks and let you chose the tools you use with it. That for Rendering the Dom and also for state management.
Not every project needs the same state solution - some prefer heavier stuff like redux, other prefer atoms, signals or other do their state management with the url. By not forcing something to be the default people can chose their solution.
Same reason why rendering the dom is a seperate package. How about using the vdom of react to render mails or 3d stuff? Use another package instead
Definitely checking out Svelte
With runes, though, it comes oddly close to react. You don't have to manage dependency arrays, sure, but with React Compiler, you don't need to do that either.
Coming from a foundation of vanilla HTML,CSS,JS before a lot of these frameworks existed (and jQuery.. The lords library), I tried to pick up React 4 times over the past 5 years. Every single time I picked it up, I would look at the concepts and just think "what.."
I just started using Svelte and Sveltekit. Comfortable using it in a week. It is as simple as using something like jQuery back in the day. It exposes you to the benefits without ramming ideological conformity down your throat. Big fan.
I'll comfortably say that React is one of the worst things to happen to front-end development. Never again. Svelte has been a pleasure to use.
Prime: 'svelte is better for beginners' is very bold.
Also Prime: svelte is good for beginners
Anyone learning frontend web development should start with HTML and JS
They must start with C
Assembly is what they need to start with.
@@mehmeh8883punch card machine code only
They need to pick up the individual diodes and transistors and assemble a computer
@@dhillaz i love how the suggestions going lower and lower lmao 🤣
So, in Svelt, when we define let a = 0, svelt knows that a is a number, so it will convert a string to a number in bind:value="a"?
Yeah, Java is difficult but everything is difficult: I'm ok with Java and now I'm learning Rust, I want to write in Rust whatever I can write in Java and then I realize that there's a lot of things to learn when you learn something new.
That "what" at 6:10 is really really relatable
Been a Vue fan since 2.0 and used Svelte for a recent project. Everything seemed "awesome"... till I started building more complex reactive pages. Then I cried myself to sleep and wished I would have stuck with Vue.
If there's one thing I've learned in the frontend world over my 5 years in the industry: trust Evan You when it comes to frontend.
The man is a powerhouse and a visionary of UI APIs. I have less experience with Rich Harris, but from the little I've seen of his work, he's not as experienced and battle tested as Evan You. There's a reason Vue is as successful as it is without any big tech money backing. It's beyond great.
damn, there are many good videos from prime talking good about svelte!
The "vanilla syntax" of Svelte is easy, but also bad. Because it's compiler magic. It's not "vanilla" at all. The fact that you need to use hooks in React makes very explicit what happens in a React component.
If I were to suggest something both easy and better in general I would go with solid. Their signals are easy to understand but a lot more explicit.
I like Svelte because it was developed as a tool, not more. React nowadays is more of a religion, and being vitally devoted to technology is not healthy.
I’m curious about your opinion on Vue3. I tried it a little bit a few months ago and it felt quite intuitive after knowing a little bit of HTML, CSS and JavaScript.
I don’t have a comparison to be fair, but the composition API felt nice to use
Vue is awesome. In fact I would say that the article prime is reading would be more true if they switched Svelte with Vue. Because Vue by design is much closer to the plain web languages than Svelte is. Svelte is much more of its own language
@@samuelmorkbednarzkepler Consider I tried no other framework before, I barely touched some HTML, CSS and javascript, I really liked how Vue put the 3 together very naturally in each file. Also the routing is very nice.
I currently work with python and technically I use dash as a “framework” at my job, but it’s complete shit imo
Elm made returning to react completely impossible. I think svelte has a similar sort of cheerful delightfulness to use, much like Elm.
I’ve been super lucky to always finding elm gigs and I think Svelte will likely be similar regarding job scarcity.
Come, Cameron! Come!
I followed a 40+ hr react udemy course to learn it. My bootcamp taught me Vue. I learned Svelte and it was the easiest probably because I'm just a lot better as a dev now, but no doubt it was simple simple simple. You can't make me use React in my free time. No matter how complicated the app, I never miss React. Two different tools with pros and cons, nothing is perfect. But I also don't think I'm becoming a worse developer because of using svelte. People normally hire you for being able to get shit done. I dont think it would take me too long to pick react back up and work in it professionally. But you could offer 2 jobs, 100k for react, and 95k for svelte, and id pick svelte for the sake of my sanity.
there won't be svelte jobs for years
@@hamm8934 not really my concern. If my projects make me money and I'm building them with Svelte then I technically have a svelte job lol.
But angular will put hair on your chest. Pair that with java, and everything after that will seem 'not that bad'.
As a former beginner who started with svelte, I agree!
SolidJS for the win!
And here I am trying to decide if I should ditch react for vue, and now you said use svelte.
Every minute of this video was RELATABLE
No one can be as sarcastically respectful as Prime 🤣
I'm super new 36 yo male.
Unemployed. Living with my parents.
I'm still new to this life because I still don't know how to socialize and make friends and why people stay away from me.
Hope by learning coding I can change my financial situation and fulfill my lifelong dream - to create my own tech startup 😊
Well, coding is quite a solitary endeavor so ya... I just don't think it will help with the "socialization" thing too much, nor meeting too many new people! For that, instead:
You'll have to get out of your comfort zone and attend meetings at social clubs--the type of clubs you would never normally consider joining, like say... culinary arts clubs, acting-theater club, book-reading-discussion clubs, learning to dance clubs, etc...
And/or you'll need to attend events you normally wouldn't attend, like some museums, plays, art-exhibits, performances, etc...
Just go, and try to talk to at least one or two strangers/people during the outing. You can admit you're shy if it helps, and admit it's your first time attending such an event!
You can say something to the effect that you've never gone before, but you always had an interest in XYZ--even if you never really had an interest in XYZ just say you did, to break the ice--and then explain you just wanted to check out a meeting or two (or exhibit or performance, whatever the case may be) to see what it was like.
Sometimes it will go badly! And you'll think, "Wow! That was a real waste of time! I shouldn't have come here!" And if it's going really (really) badly then no worries! Just shrug, take off, go back home, and sulk by binge-watching some fun TV shows or movies, and ordering/eating your favorite food as a consolation prize! (Have a back up consolation prize ready, in case the outing goes bad and you decide to leave.)
But other times it will actually go great! And gradually you'll just simply get better and better at meeting new people this way, and might end up with a new set of amazing friends!
And finally, there's also nothing wrong with also wanting introverted time to yourself, doing introverted stuff like computer programming. Do that as well, and don't give up on your alone time! But... at the same time: you also need some socialization time! But that will only happen if you purposely work on it, and walk out the front door sometimes on adventures, and just get out there!
Sup Prime, your reading skills are growing blazingly fast, also I am learning programming for three years yet didn't get any clue what's going on when I'm working with react and Typescript is a struggle but testing react is real pain for me
Svelte is really good for beginners; at least it does not rob you of any joy of programming and leave you as an empty shell of your former self as some other frameworks do. But for all it's simplicity it gets complex and hacky really fast too, if you build so much as a little more advanced crud application. It has an implicit control flow which gets really hard to follow after a while.
Will svelte 5 solve those problems? Could you elaborate on what you didn't find good about it?
I'm learning Svelte.
and my prof decided to task us to learn angular fuck
I haven't tried Svelte, but I think the big reason why such basic examples are much easier on Selte/ htmx/angular is because they have magic "bind:value" which complex stuff under the hood. And in React you do it explicitly
Even react is not explicit. It's js under the hood
Some tools are white magic. Some are dark wtf magic. React is the second.
Svelte abstractions are well built, you have a lot under the hood, but you know the kind.
This won't really be the case with Svelte 5 Runes. Now I am unsure to even recommend Svelte now. I'm just now wrapped my head around runes and it's not so bad. But now it feels just like every other frontend JavaScript library with boilerplate code. The magic and simplicity doesn't feel there anymore. Learning runes took effort when Svelte 3 and 4 just made sense right off the bat. I'm a bit worried at the direction. But I see the pros of runes.
the Svelteagen !!!
I think HTMX is quite hard to grasp. since you are dealing with both backend and frontend at the same time but not really. it really efficient but you need to understand what you can and can't do and how to do it, for frontend frameworks it's a lot easier to plan in your head what is happening and how you will make it.
Never pay attention to any dude online comparing two languages or frameworks. Just use whatever works perfect for you.
Do people just learn Svelte for hobby projects, or do freelancers do client work In Svelte? Where is it used commercially? Not trying to sound pedantic. I'm a beginner developer not sure what Frontend framework to learn 😅
Apple used it in a project , among others.
I use it at Optum in production
i think even spotify wrapped used svelte. there was a video by a channel called "joy of code" which showed all the companies that use svelte. apple music, spotify (for wrapped), new york times, ikea, etc
I think prime did a video on this exact question - his take was: Don't start by learning a framework, start by learning how to program
I learned React via Scrimba. Because they have hands-on interactive style of teaching. React from documentation is eugh.
Does Prime work on commissions?
I really like svelte
I push beginners to Astro. It's just easier to grasp certain concepts. From there, either Svelte or Vue are good for leveling up. I wouldn't push new devs to React unless they really need, or are required, to go there.
Wait you are 37? I knew you were on the "older" side in terms of content creators but I would have guessed you 32 max.
I really hope I will be as cool as you when I'll be 37
its all the kegels i do
just wish people adopt it more id drop react immediately if there was a narket for svelte
Shouldn't beginners just start vanilla to discover the dragons of working with the DOM themselves before learning a DSL framework?
I just WISH there were jobs. Its all just Angular and React 😢
I had been learning svelte, and just jumped back into react to try land my first job this year. This video didn’t help 🤣🤣
Htmx, however great, is terrible for beginners because it's just the frontend. What are you sending your requests off to? Now you have to learn go, flask, node, php or whatever too.
Well yeah, and why wouldn’t you learn go, php or node ?
WHAT ABOUT SOLIDD??
I'll concede that Svelte is a faster ROI for beginners but Solidjs is objectively superior
How so
I dont see other win with solid other than being similar to react.
I am a python script kiddie (and language model researcher).... And my only Frontend experience is with a python package called gradio. And I really don't like it. As I understand it, it's build upon Svelte.
I can tell, you little.... .., what were you going to say😏
Is something "for beginners" if its a more intuitive and easier to read framework than others? This does not make sense to me. Everyone should choose a framework he can work best with. Doesnt matter if you are a beginner or expert. I genuely love Svelte because i can spin up a complex web application in no time while keeping readability and simplicity which makes me very happy. Thats all that matters
I think your misinterpreting the message. they arn't saying "only beginners should use svelte" or "if you use svelte you're a beginner" they're saying "if you're a beginner Svelte is easier to learn than react"
Does react deviate from traditional UI development?....like react has been around for almost half the time you could even associate "tradition" with however anyone was doing it.
Web UI isn't the only UI... Same principles apply on desktop apps. React just threw old wisdom into the trash...
@@cocoscacao6102 of course, i was only pointing what exactly does the author mean by saying "traditional"
Totally missed the opportunity to change "What" to "WAT" 🤣
Svelte is just better period.
imo vue is much easier for beginners , very intuitive
If you have learned Java first then nothing feels verbose anymore :D
One thing i don't know why
I know this isn't the point, but... That parseInt tho
Svelte is flaco!
Svelte - the most abstraction you can get after next lmao
Why is every channel on TH-cam keep pumping out content for beginners? I thought this channel was the exception!
it is. low level leaning has also some deep stuff
Because the market for beginners is the biggest, also this is the rare prime video that is focused on beginners so I wouldnt say he is 'pumping' them out
HTMX is not for beginners, because it's still quite fundamentally complex to have a backend that can serve your htmx requests...
No way Prime is 37.
How can he look so 40-year-old-handsome-man-who-knows-everythying yet be 37
I mean u round up anyway after 35
@@andiuptown1711 you do?!
Oh well... seeing that I keep rounding down to 60 for my father I can see your point. Kinda.
just use vue ? dawg
Tried both, prefer Vue
net beans is so pain lol
Disappointed in twitch chat. “What is HTMX good for?”, “Absolutely nothing! Aaahaaahuhhuh!”
Svelte is simply always better
What takes me 4 days to write in React. I can write in Svelte in about 15 minutes with the EXACT same functionality. I kid you not.
You should learn React first. At least if you intend to use it. React becomes absolutely impossible (emotionally) after learning Svelte.
I'm currently involved in a React project and hate each and every moment of it with a fiery passion of a billion suns, because I am aware how much easier and better everything could be.
The only good thing about this project is that It's given me daily opportunities to complain to my employer and communicate with every estimate the difference in time and complexity in comparison to Svelte which eventually led to new projects being Svelte based.
Once you
We need to retire react.
*and backend devs
How can that svelte code be better. “Bind” directive is totally alien to a beginner. How would they make sense of it?. Meanwhile react code has state, state is literally the only primitive react asks you to understand, the rest of the things like onachange are the same event handlers as usual
Bro knows only two words "HTMX" and "Vim"..
All these frameworks are the same... It doesn't matter what you pick, they all do the same thing. I could write the same website in Fresh, Next, Solid, Vue, Kit...
Instead of starting with svelte or some framework, why don't you just start with JavaScript if you're going to write JavaScript. I'm so sick of these framework wars and the people who learn JS by learning a framework first. Svelte is worse because you have a compiled language that isn't the same as JS, which means that you're going to get beginners who see vanilla JS as a different language.
Svelte feels nice because it is a compiled language for building UIs. React feels not nice because it is "just Javascript".
Downside to starting with Svelte is when you eventually have to learn React, you’re going to start hating coding because it’s just not as nice to write 🤣
Isn't this article out dated, now a days Svelte uses Runes instead of the simple let syntax.
runes have not been released yet
Svelte 5 is far different from this... Htmx is love
1. It's only easier to read when you know it.
2. I enjoy writing React, you can enjoy writing Svlte
3. Both seemed simple to me
The React code is more explicit about its data flow, that's why I use React and why I recommend it to all beginners.
How's it more explicit?
Copium
There are parts of Svelte that highjack JavaScript. Keywords like "export" and "let" don't operate the same way inside a ".svelte" file as they do in an ".js" or ".ts" file. The cost of it looking like plain JavaScript is it doesn't behave like JavaScript. So if you don't know how Svelte works, it's not clear what is component state until you find the variable in the template. FWIW, Svelte has acknowledged this problem, which is why they're introducing runes.
@@pcmart4012that's not a bug that's a feature. .JSX files have to be transpiled to .JS, same as .SVELTE files.
Pretty weak sauce to criticise Svelte for stuff they are fixing in the next version @@pcmart4012
All these javascript frameworks seem to be written by either highschool kids or very young adults. Anyone ever bother to look at the most likely horrendous code beneath it all?
My Take about tis topic: Svelte is bad for beginners. Everyone keeps telling that Svelte is closer to the basics - meanwhile its doing constantly very abstracted magic to look like easy stuff. Meanwhile its hallucinating its own syntax that is distached from pure javascript.
People hate react for doing exactly that - doing magic stuff while abstracting stuff away and having its 'own' syntax
replace svelte with vue in this article and it is correct. Vue is entirely vanilla html, js, and css. No compilter magic. Can even be used without a build step.
Haha, this is hilarious, might as well say that Ruby on Rails is beginners, or C is for beginners :D
Thanks infinite drink guy
or just say, Reactjs is making frontend too complicated