Best way I can describe Magic and Paradox is like this: Magic is you rejecting reality and substituting your own. Paradox is reality deciding to reject *back.*
One description of Paradox I’ve seen is that gaining Paradox is from stretching reality like a rubber band and it’s effects on you are that rubber band snapping back right into your eye.
I've heard it described as you can fuck with reality, reality has the power to smack you upside the head. Along with war of the world's being a real thing consensus retconned into being a radio play
Mage the Ascension was not my first, but is my favorite, of the WoD lines. Still play it when I can, and the Order of Hermes will hold a special place in my heart.
Mage was my favorite of the World of Darkness. I had a Akashic Brotherhood mage that was kin-folk to some werewolves (my Fellow Players). It was fun, they (the werewolves) didn't know that my character was a mage; at least at first.
We used to regularly LARP crossover games. Because most players found it easier to play vampires, wraiths, and werewolves, it made our mages that much more fun. They were also easier to hide and use as plot points. Great musing,
Little Fears is one of my favorite games. The first time I ran it, I thought it was going to be a little distraction while I looked for a real horror game equal to my players but LF turned out to be exactly what we needed. The first edition makes 'Call of Cthulhu's' setting seem friendly and inviting by comparison. Sadly, as the author told me, more people liked the game than were willing to run it at their tables because the content of the first edition was too disturbing. I used to be very involved with the fandom and have done editing work on some of the books.
@@SerpenThrope looking at WTA20 it handles the crossover especially well; the Bastet and Kitsune have a trait called Cat Magic or Fox Magic which lets them learn sorcerers' hedge magic
I’ve always preferred the Atlantis and Higher Planes my this of Mage the Awakening, but I have to admit, the factions in Ascension were really cool and very creative.
I'm going to be honest. I really like the Technocracy, especially after Technocracy Reloaded. I love the Magical MIBs and I'm glad they got so much attention.
@@EvilDoresh Reality must be preserved, humanity protected, and Ascension guided. Not everything the Technocracy does is glorious or perfect, but it must be done.
@@PlanktonWhisperer Thats fair. Its not for everyone. Though I'm also pretty sure that WoD was not originally supposed to be a shared setting but it developed into one overtime. As opposed to Chronicles of Darkness, which was meant to be shared and even modular from the very beginning.
This gave me a cool idea for a mage who works as a stage magician. Because then people expect the impossible from you. You cast all kinds of shit and so long as it’s not too reality-breaking, they’ll think it’s just smoke and mirrors.
Yes, good thinking! As I was writing this, I remembered something. In a supplement book for 2nd edition Mage, the Chantry of Order of Hermes in Seattle was disguised as a shop of supplies for stage magicians!
Having explored a bit more. I actually find myself having a hard time seeing the technocracy as anything less than the bad guys. Originally I thought they were bad guys, then I thought they were misunderstood, and upon further research that the Technocracy are just... The Worst. At best I find that what they have accomplished with technology is just the same as what anyone else would have done but with a different coat of paint. At worst I find that it seems like whatever it is they are actually seeking to do. Though they do in the name of humanity... Its quite clear that perhaps what they define as human is... frankly anything but, and don't get me started on the cyborg meat puppets. Some of the technocracy like the Void Engineers I dont view quite as poorly. Those guys just seem like they want to go to space, and aren't really trying to force their view on everyone else. They are more then willing to live and let live.
i remember some people saying that mages magic system [and the resulting paradox] was influenced by the elizabethan era rpg Maelstrom [now published by Arion games].
Wow I wake up early for work. I see this video uploaded at 1Am, and I get first comment? I love Mage the Ascension for not being Grey Vs Black morality. The Traditions and The Technocracy are both heroes of their own story. The lore of every faction in White Wolf is interesting, but MotA always seems better because theyre not evil, and more importantly not infighting so much to prevent cooperation. But that said I do have a problem. There arent really details rules for many of White Wolves' games. Its not like a Wargame-themed RPG where a Fireball can travel 400feet+40feet for every caster level. Instead its about talking to the Storyteller and them saying what happens. Im a big fan of Mr Welch and tell everyone I can about both his List and channel.
I am so happy to see this review, this is the TTRPG that I have spent actual weeks playing. This game completely ruined me for any other magic system in Tabletop, I still compare the spells in other games to the amount and variety of Spheres I would need to do the same effect. My friends and I still joke about the characters created in our games and the events that occurred, like explaining the puncture wounds that my character got from stiletto heels after accidentally motorboating the wrong woman after receiving a head injury. Hell, we have an origin story for a special D10 die that would only roll 1,5, or 10, entirely because of our Mage games. While alot of the games that my friends and I played could quite heartily be called "Power Fantasy", I have a metric fuckton of happy memories playing this game, and I highly doubt that any other TTRPG will ever knock it off my number 1 favorite RPG spot.
I wonder if Paradox can be expressed in game as the adage from ABC's Once Upon a Time, "Magic, good and evil, always has a cost." In which the effects of paradox may not be immediate, but somewhere down the line, Paradox is gonna get you. A future spell may require you to hurt someone you love, or you might suffer lowered mana for a while.
There are different ways to implement Paradox in your games. The Nephandi are working for a dark entity, which could be the Wyrm or something else entirely. And that "powerful vampire" was an Antideluvidan of Clan Ravnos, nothing less than a fucking god. And not just simply "powerful". The Technocracy on average doesn't think its performing magick. And even when they tell themselves they are the big shots, they suck at their job just like the Traditions.
Is there a chance for a musing between oWoD and nWoD? You sprinkle some of your feelings in each video but since some versions did better than others there must be enough to be a topic on it's own. Of course it could also spark it's own little tradition vs NWO comment war.
I would have to look at the new world of Darkness as its own game because everything except the basic premise was changed. I would also have to acquire copies of them
Sad that you had to turn off comments on the 'Little Fears' video, as there are a lot of very interesting things to be said around that game. It is one of my favorites.
While at club(yes the kind where VtM was pretty popular before we could legally drink) and saw that this video was posted. It made me sad that I was at a nightclub because of seeing this video... but being too loud and cheap to view it there. But now I'm home and have enjoyed the goodness that is almost always had when viewing a "Mr. Welch's Mad Musings" video! As always thank you Mr. Welch for helping me to better understand something that I either did not know about at all or in this case knew about the fact that it existed... but not much more.
I don't know if it was in the old mage as well as new mage. did you leave out the auditors? there the higher dimension beings that are to mages what mage are to ants and thy will smith you right out of reality is you screw around and change to much.
No no, I'm down with transmitting a vampire into a lawn chair if your of the right traditions. I'll just need a roll of 90 or higher and their will be paradox regardless but I'd let em roll for it.
Marauders used to be immune from paradox in the earlier editions now they are resistant but can still get paradox. and yah Marauder justice is Pee wees playhouse too but more crazier maybe add Gary Gnu as your judge.
I loved to play mage in a Chrono manner, fuck with time and people's perception of it was a blast but god was paradox hard to keep down when your manipulating time and space. It best most broken game I ever played but still somehow worked.
@SemicolonExpected If those types of videos aren't out there, maybe you could fill that void. Mr. Welch proves you don't need high production values to make excellent videos. He inspired me to make my own channel. (Well, I had had the idea for a while, but he inspired me to actually go ahead and do it.)
A couple corrections, the Nephandi sold their souls to the Wyrm, they are to mages what Black Spiral Dancers are to werewolves. The Order of Hermes' claim to being the oldest is dubious as several Old Testament characters were portrayed as Celestial Chorus mages, including Abraham, Daniel and Solomon. Which brings up some interesting connections to the origins of the Prometheans, as in addition to Daniel, Pygmalion was Order of Hermes and Victor Frankenstein was Sons of Ether, so three of the known demiurges were known mages.
I really never cared for this one. It seemed to be a continuation of Ars Magica, only done badly (which is also where the Tremere vampires come from). Modern vampires I get; mages? Nah. I'll pass.
I like the mechanics in some ways, but I loathe the trope of "belief bends reality". It can be done kind of ok, like in the Coldfire trilogy, but it has become achingly overdone.
Depends entirely on implementation, I think. So long as an author writes it well, its pretty good. More hard-magic x = y is needed to ensure the power of friendship doesn't go balls to the wall, stupid. I really like the idea of willpower being leveraged against reality to cast magic. Rather than belief, implies you're forcing your design upon the world. People do that all the time, generally with ideas, dogma and cold hard cash tho.
Well…I hear where you’re coming from. Overused ideas can be annoying. That said, Mage came out in the early 90’s…30-ish years ago. I believe it wasn’t an overused trope at that point. In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of the reason it’s seen a lot nowadays is because it inspired some creative type people who incorporated the idea. So, you can’t really blame Mage for that. Secondly the idea that ‘belief and willpower fuels magic’ is…like…an actual belief. In the actual real world. It pops up in all sorts of different religions and philosophies out there. And fantasy frequently takes inspiration from the real world…so that’s another reason it’s popping up so much
So the whole party is mages? That sounds as boring as a party of jedi. I'm looking at you starwars d20. Sooo... if I'm understanding you correctly, you just have a sphere and there are suggestions of how you can use a sphere. If that the case im not seeing any reason a mage wouldn't use the time sphere.
In my experience it works, because the way the PC's do magic is very different from each other, and their actual Spheres won't overlap that much. To your second question, there is a bit more structure than that. You can't go significantly back in time until you have the highest level of Time. You can't raise Spheres higher than your Arete, and both cost a lot of XP. Also backward time travel is the most Paradox-generating thing a mage can do.
![[TH] FS vs BME - VCT Ascension Pacific - Lower Bracket Final](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/wnygqsR2Fig/mqdefault.jpg)
Best way I can describe Magic and Paradox is like this:
Magic is you rejecting reality and substituting your own.
Paradox is reality deciding to reject *back.*
Gonna have to look into this series for a game
One description of Paradox I’ve seen is that gaining Paradox is from stretching reality like a rubber band and it’s effects on you are that rubber band snapping back right into your eye.
Or bullet goes one way recoil goes the other.
I've heard it described as you can fuck with reality, reality has the power to smack you upside the head. Along with war of the world's being a real thing consensus retconned into being a radio play
"If you clap Consensus hard enough, eventually Consensus will clap back. And that pimp slap is called Paradox."
Mage the Ascension was not my first, but is my favorite, of the WoD lines.
Still play it when I can, and the Order of Hermes will hold a special place in my heart.
Mage was my favorite of the World of Darkness. I had a Akashic Brotherhood mage that was kin-folk to some werewolves (my Fellow Players). It was fun, they (the werewolves) didn't know that my character was a mage; at least at first.
What did they do after learning about that?
I always looked at this game as “RPG debate class”
Sometimes, RPG debate class is what you need!
Sometimes it's not.
It's ok either way.
We used to regularly LARP crossover games. Because most players found it easier to play vampires, wraiths, and werewolves, it made our mages that much more fun. They were also easier to hide and use as plot points. Great musing,
Little Fears is one of my favorite games. The first time I ran it, I thought it was going to be a little distraction while I looked for a real horror game equal to my players but LF turned out to be exactly what we needed. The first edition makes 'Call of Cthulhu's' setting seem friendly and inviting by comparison. Sadly, as the author told me, more people liked the game than were willing to run it at their tables because the content of the first edition was too disturbing. I used to be very involved with the fandom and have done editing work on some of the books.
Have you ever had any experience with WoD Sorcerers? I've heard a Sorcerer game can be a lot easier for a novice Storyteller.
It follows the more traditional magic like they did with vampire. Easier to use but lacks the openness that made mage popular
@@Mr_Welch I've also heard it handles crossovers better, since most supernaturals have no strong opinion on Sorcerers either way. That accurate?
@@SerpenThrope yes because they translate into hedge Wizards and such. But not a lot of background for most
@@SerpenThrope looking at WTA20 it handles the crossover especially well; the Bastet and Kitsune have a trait called Cat Magic or Fox Magic which lets them learn sorcerers' hedge magic
You need to be careful about crossing Mage with other games as they will overshadow other supernatural characters.
I’ve always preferred the Atlantis and Higher Planes my this of Mage the Awakening, but I have to admit, the factions in Ascension were really cool and very creative.
Because Awakening is better structured?
I'm going to be honest. I really like the Technocracy, especially after Technocracy Reloaded. I love the Magical MIBs and I'm glad they got so much attention.
The Technocracy did nothing wrong.
@@EvilDoresh Reality must be preserved, humanity protected, and Ascension guided. Not everything the Technocracy does is glorious or perfect, but it must be done.
The Technocracy is proof that WoD as a shared setting was a bad idea. The themes work for Changeling but not for Mage.
@@PlanktonWhisperer Thats fair. Its not for everyone. Though I'm also pretty sure that WoD was not originally supposed to be a shared setting but it developed into one overtime. As opposed to Chronicles of Darkness, which was meant to be shared and even modular from the very beginning.
@@EvilDoresh They are mix of Imperial Inquisition, Cult Mechanicus, SCP Foundation, Space Marines... Awesome!
This gave me a cool idea for a mage who works as a stage magician. Because then people expect the impossible from you. You cast all kinds of shit and so long as it’s not too reality-breaking, they’ll think it’s just smoke and mirrors.
Yes, good thinking!
As I was writing this, I remembered something.
In a supplement book for 2nd edition Mage, the Chantry of Order of Hermes in Seattle was disguised as a shop of supplies for stage magicians!
Having explored a bit more. I actually find myself having a hard time seeing the technocracy as anything less than the bad guys.
Originally I thought they were bad guys, then I thought they were misunderstood, and upon further research that the Technocracy are just... The Worst.
At best I find that what they have accomplished with technology is just the same as what anyone else would have done but with a different coat of paint.
At worst I find that it seems like whatever it is they are actually seeking to do. Though they do in the name of humanity... Its quite clear that perhaps what they define as human is... frankly anything but, and don't get me started on the cyborg meat puppets.
Some of the technocracy like the Void Engineers I dont view quite as poorly. Those guys just seem like they want to go to space, and aren't really trying to force their view on everyone else. They are more then willing to live and let live.
I love this.
This is one of the more interesting White Wolf games along with Wraith that interested me the most!
Mage is such a good game. Now I wonder why we stopped playing 20 years ago. 🤔
Anthony Head was fantastic in Repo. I'm not even a fan of musicals, but that film was great.
I AM ONLY LIVING OUT A LIIIEEEE!!!
@@paladinebahamut were you aware that Zydrate comes in a little glass vial?
@@Whipster-Old a little glass vial?
I really enjoyed Mage, I ran this for a little bit, but never got a long term campaign off the ground. Would love to play.
i remember some people saying that mages magic system [and the resulting paradox] was influenced by the elizabethan era rpg Maelstrom [now published by Arion games].
Meanwhile I have a Euthanatos played like a Keanu Reeves exorcist. XD
Wow I wake up early for work. I see this video uploaded at 1Am, and I get first comment? I love Mage the Ascension for not being Grey Vs Black morality. The Traditions and The Technocracy are both heroes of their own story. The lore of every faction in White Wolf is interesting, but MotA always seems better because theyre not evil, and more importantly not infighting so much to prevent cooperation.
But that said I do have a problem. There arent really details rules for many of White Wolves' games. Its not like a Wargame-themed RPG where a Fireball can travel 400feet+40feet for every caster level. Instead its about talking to the Storyteller and them saying what happens.
Im a big fan of Mr Welch and tell everyone I can about both his List and channel.
i also really like the dynamic possibilities of Mage
Never got to play Ascension, but I did get to play a mage from Awakening in a mixed WoD game once. It was pretty interesting.
Speaking of public relations, did you read the book Propaganda?
Your viewpoint on the Dreamspeakers is demeaning AF
I think I have had teacher's and class mates who would find this right up there ally.
I am so happy to see this review, this is the TTRPG that I have spent actual weeks playing.
This game completely ruined me for any other magic system in Tabletop, I still compare the spells in other games to the amount and variety of Spheres I would need to do the same effect. My friends and I still joke about the characters created in our games and the events that occurred, like explaining the puncture wounds that my character got from stiletto heels after accidentally motorboating the wrong woman after receiving a head injury.
Hell, we have an origin story for a special D10 die that would only roll 1,5, or 10, entirely because of our Mage games.
While alot of the games that my friends and I played could quite heartily be called "Power Fantasy", I have a metric fuckton of happy memories playing this game, and I highly doubt that any other TTRPG will ever knock it off my number 1 favorite RPG spot.
I know, it's an awesome magic system.
I wonder if Paradox can be expressed in game as the adage from ABC's Once Upon a Time, "Magic, good and evil, always has a cost." In which the effects of paradox may not be immediate, but somewhere down the line, Paradox is gonna get you. A future spell may require you to hurt someone you love, or you might suffer lowered mana for a while.
Son of ether: I keep telling you I'm not mad! Just angry!
There are different ways to implement Paradox in your games. The Nephandi are working for a dark entity, which could be the Wyrm or something else entirely. And that "powerful vampire" was an Antideluvidan of Clan Ravnos, nothing less than a fucking god. And not just simply "powerful". The Technocracy on average doesn't think its performing magick. And even when they tell themselves they are the big shots, they suck at their job just like the Traditions.
Harry Potter but you can say the F word.
Is there a chance for a musing between oWoD and nWoD? You sprinkle some of your feelings in each video but since some versions did better than others there must be enough to be a topic on it's own. Of course it could also spark it's own little tradition vs NWO comment war.
I would have to look at the new world of Darkness as its own game because everything except the basic premise was changed. I would also have to acquire copies of them
14:56 *AMOGUS*
the mechanics of Mage is a much simplified version of Ars Magica. Love mage.
Good stuff! I finally got around to reordering the first edition. It's as awesome as it was back in the day.
I love mage and VtM.
Not a game for me ( I think ) but as always, I love your slideshows and quotes.
It was a rather Old vampire.
Sad that you had to turn off comments on the 'Little Fears' video, as there are a lot of very interesting things to be said around that game. It is one of my favorites.
Give me a minute. This is all on youtube deciding for me. Not happy.
Harry Dresden cameo
Euthanatos OB is a kickass concept. Thanks!
how would you personally create a magic system?
While at club(yes the kind where VtM was pretty popular before we could legally drink) and saw that this video was posted. It made me sad that I was at a nightclub because of seeing this video... but being too loud and cheap to view it there. But now I'm home and have enjoyed the goodness that is almost always had when viewing a "Mr. Welch's Mad Musings" video!
As always thank you Mr. Welch for helping me to better understand something that I either did not know about at all or in this case knew about the fact that it existed... but not much more.
I don't know if it was in the old mage as well as new mage. did you leave out the auditors? there the higher dimension beings that are to mages what mage are to ants and thy will smith you right out of reality is you screw around and change to much.
That would be the Awakening. Had to look them up
No no, I'm down with transmitting a vampire into a lawn chair if your of the right traditions. I'll just need a roll of 90 or higher and their will be paradox regardless but I'd let em roll for it.
Marauders used to be immune from paradox in the earlier editions now they are resistant but can still get paradox. and yah Marauder justice is Pee wees playhouse too but more crazier maybe add Gary Gnu as your judge.
Love that game. Bring back great memories.
SO WELL DONE!
I tip my hat to you sir.
And I hope this brings new players into the fold
I loved My Son of Ether.
A Son of Ether done well is a pleasure to game with.
That's what true SCIENCE is!
And remember, folks; Verbena weigh more than a duck!
I loved to play mage in a Chrono manner, fuck with time and people's perception of it was a blast but god was paradox hard to keep down when your manipulating time and space. It best most broken game I ever played but still somehow worked.
why is this the best video describing all the factions?
Is there a particular reason it wouldn't be?
@@rosskwolfe i was just hoping there would be more videos on youtube that addressed the factions in a funny way tbh
@SemicolonExpected If those types of videos aren't out there, maybe you could fill that void. Mr. Welch proves you don't need high production values to make excellent videos. He inspired me to make my own channel. (Well, I had had the idea for a while, but he inspired me to actually go ahead and do it.)
Paradox is Jiminy Cricket with a chainsaw. ;)
3:20 oh hey that fool moon book cover art.....I really needs to get back to reading Dresden.
Technocracy v. Traditions definitely reminds me of the Program v. Cowboy dynamic in Delta Green
The vampires into lawn chairs 😮
I still have all my second addition books in a box.
Thank you for this. I thought I was the only one.
Love the pic library for this one!
Return to tradition.
Very good.
10:20 what is this image from?
Witcher season 1
A couple corrections, the Nephandi sold their souls to the Wyrm, they are to mages what Black Spiral Dancers are to werewolves. The Order of Hermes' claim to being the oldest is dubious as several Old Testament characters were portrayed as Celestial Chorus mages, including Abraham, Daniel and Solomon. Which brings up some interesting connections to the origins of the Prometheans, as in addition to Daniel, Pygmalion was Order of Hermes and Victor Frankenstein was Sons of Ether, so three of the known demiurges were known mages.
I really never cared for this one. It seemed to be a continuation of Ars Magica, only done badly (which is also where the Tremere vampires come from). Modern vampires I get; mages? Nah. I'll pass.
Technocracy ❤ The Order of Reason
thanks for the explination of Mage, the book gets so abstract and without having played it yet its hard to grasp without simple explanations.
I like the mechanics in some ways, but I loathe the trope of "belief bends reality". It can be done kind of ok, like in the Coldfire trilogy, but it has become achingly overdone.
Depends entirely on implementation, I think. So long as an author writes it well, its pretty good. More hard-magic x = y is needed to ensure the power of friendship doesn't go balls to the wall, stupid.
I really like the idea of willpower being leveraged against reality to cast magic. Rather than belief, implies you're forcing your design upon the world. People do that all the time, generally with ideas, dogma and cold hard cash tho.
Well…I hear where you’re coming from. Overused ideas can be annoying. That said, Mage came out in the early 90’s…30-ish years ago. I believe it wasn’t an overused trope at that point. In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of the reason it’s seen a lot nowadays is because it inspired some creative type people who incorporated the idea. So, you can’t really blame Mage for that.
Secondly the idea that ‘belief and willpower fuels magic’ is…like…an actual belief. In the actual real world. It pops up in all sorts of different religions and philosophies out there. And fantasy frequently takes inspiration from the real world…so that’s another reason it’s popping up so much
So the whole party is mages? That sounds as boring as a party of jedi. I'm looking at you starwars d20.
Sooo... if I'm understanding you correctly, you just have a sphere and there are suggestions of how you can use a sphere. If that the case im not seeing any reason a mage wouldn't use the time sphere.
In my experience it works, because the way the PC's do magic is very different from each other, and their actual Spheres won't overlap that much.
To your second question, there is a bit more structure than that. You can't go significantly back in time until you have the highest level of Time. You can't raise Spheres higher than your Arete, and both cost a lot of XP. Also backward time travel is the most Paradox-generating thing a mage can do.
@@Frivolitility i wouldn't use it for time travel just the speeding up and slowing down time to mess with presentations.
Are you familiar with the heist movie genre or League of Extraordinary gentlemen?
It's more this, especially in public.