How To Start Your Game Narrative - Design Mechanics First - Extra Credits
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 ก.พ. 2013
- Game writing isn't about making up a story and then attaching gameplay to it. To be a great game writer, you have to also be a good game designer, and recognize how the gameplay is inseparable from the narrative design process.
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(Original air date: January 23, 2013)
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"It could be set in Rome" *shows image of the Cattedrale di Santa Mikkel del Fiore in Florence*
Nicely done.
+rashkavar "Rupert and Periwinkle"
Alternate reality Rome.
Santa Maria, but yeah, I noticed that too.
at least i'm not the only one that is disturbed by it... :D
That's not even Italian for Saint Michael :'D But yeah it's Santa Maria del Fiore. :D
Basically, your message can be boiled down to: don't progress one aspect of the game beyond the others,
No. Really. That is the point. That, obviously, comes with the caveat that a Good Game is a game first, and therefore, good play makes a game better than good writing. But if you develop every part together, art, mechanics, sound, story, etc, the end result will be much better than waiting until the last minute to develop one or more aspects of the game.
Pryce Newberg Lean vs Waterfall!
But there are games that are about story over gameplay. Good ones.
This sounds like Kingdom Hearts, and I love it.
Your icon reminds me a bit of Gamemaker’s Toolkit
@@classydoctor5864you might be thinking of the good narrative story games that _also_ have good gameplay. 😏 I don't mean to be flippant, but that I guarantee if a good narrative story game has poor mechanics, you didn't finish it.
I have this friend who is studying game design and etc. I told him this idea I had for a game with 3 separate storyline. I wanted each art style to represent a POV of the character being played and to have the story fit together. I tried to show him all my ideas for it but he told me exactly what you guys are saying now. I didn't think much about my mechanics at all. I wanted to immerse people in characters and forgot the gameplay aspect all together.
I understand what I was missing. I need this. Thx 😺
Why not make a Visual Novel then instead? :Ü™
***** I intended to answer to RedFlyer41 because he wanted to tell the story of 3 people. And I'm now intrigued about your game, I'll hope I'll remember to keep an eye out for it :Ü™
Maybe you could make an interactive visual novel instead.
*****
I'd recommend studying Japanese romance games (I know, weeaboo trash) as well as your typical choose your own adventure games. Play them thoroughly, read the reviews, etc.
Danganrompa** I think that would be a great starting point. Extra Credits made a video about narrative mechanics that might be of some use. I think there was another one about relaying your story in the games mechanics too, but that may be the same video.
Looking at this video from the opposite perspective explains why it is impossible to make a good video game movie.
+Yossi Lipton Yes, I had this thought, too.
not impossible but really really hard. they made decent tomb raider movie right?
+John Lipski then again, tomb raider (the first few games) didn't have a deep story really
+Yossi Lipton Anything can be adapted to any medium once you understand the medium and the source material. I don't think HOllywood's half ass attempts at capitalizing on any hot commodity is proof of anything.
+Video game prank calls He means video games based off of a pre-existing story since it limits the creativity of the game developers. The Walking Dead works really well because the games share a setting with the comic and show, but the developers are permitted to make their own story and scenarios.
What is emotion, is it a new DLC?
It's a song by Daft Punk
+YepX Emotions brought to you by David Cage.
+YepX fuuuuuuuuuuuck! i knew i should've bought the season pass!
While I agree with many of the points presented, how then would someone go about making a visual novel or a story driven rpg? In both, the narrative is the center of the thing, from where everything else springs forth.
+kahane was right I am curious about that as well. Or a game like Stanley Parable. If you strip the story out of that game its mechanics are just walking with the occasional click. Not much of a mechanic to strap a story onto. VN's have game mechanics too but I don't know if I'd go about making one with mechanics first.
+Sam Weatherford
Yeah but visual novels are that and not really games. I mean when you decide you make a vn you are pretty much settled on the "game mechanics" already right?
kistuszek
Actually no.
Take Riviera for example.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riviera:_The_Promised_Land
I don't get it.
Where does this go against what i said?
I beg to differ about visual novels not being games. Long Live the Queen is a visual novel but you have choices and have to manage what traits you level up. A lot of visual novels have different mechanics. It does not stop them from being novels nor from being games.
Eh, I'm not convinced. Certainly trying to craft a video game out of a finished story is inherently absurd, granted, but crafting a game entirely from mechanics precludes some of the best plot-based games we've seen to date.
Consider Spec Ops: the Line for a good example of this. The gameplay, level design, and so many other aspects of the game are tailored to match the overarching story they were trying to create. This is exactly what you were saying made the game such a masterpiece. If their goal had been to craft a deep, engaging first person shooter from the mechanics side of things, they would have, at best, created another Call of Duty knockoff - Call of Duty is what squad based FPS mechanics give you in terms of a narrative built on the mechanics. (At their core, the two games have the same basic mechanics - a group of soldiers moving around shooting enemies, occasionally encountering obstacles they have to walk around or climb over instead of shooting, etc. And CoD gives you a narrative where that makes sense - a group of soldiers acting as part of a powerful military doing important military things, and only occasionally deviates slightly from that format (the Pripyat assassination attempt in MW1 and the Price/Soap/Yuri missions in MW3, for instance). Spec Ops goes way off the predicted track because they were telling a story they wanted to tell.)
Another example: Compare Icewind Dale and Baldur's Gate II. Technically, the games are virtually identical from a mechanics perspective. Of all the infinity engine games, these two have the most technical similarities in the core interface and handling of the game. When you look at story, however, Icewind Dale gives you a very classic Forgotten Realms style story - the kind that makes for engaging tabletop DnD: high action dungeon crawling, adventure built around the entire party rather than any one individual. Makes for fun, challenging gameplay while you're playing, but it doesn't sink that narrative hook into you that makes you want to see what happens next. Baldur's Gate II, on the other hand, presents a story built around a primary character (to the point where the death of that character is instantly a game over, which is kinda annoying when your Cleric has a Raise Dead spell to fix that minor inconvenience) that is deep and engaging. You get Jon Irenicus, one of the most memorably evil characters I've ever encountered instead of...uhh, what was going on in Icewind Dale again?
I'm not suggesting that these games were built around a complete and finished story - that only really works (and then barely) when you come up with a game mechanic and find ways to attach it to the story you're working with - consider the Two Towers and Return of the King games on PS2. A game's narrative is like the plot of a movie - it's eminently important, but outside factors limit what you can actually accomplish (Effects costs in movies, the problems outlined in the video for games), which means you can either adapt the story as your work progresses, or you end up with a total mess. I would argue that starting with game mechanics and building up narrative is almost as silly as starting a movie with special effects and trying to come up with a plot that justifies it. (Honestly, not even sure what that would look like, but it sounds horrible, no?)
A story, regardless of medium, is never complete. There's always room for more editing. Even authors admit this fact, and their work is the least dependent on outside factors because the only thing they need to do is convince a publisher to print their book (and even that's starting to fall down with self-published ebooks). Why is it that so many game developers see the narrative as being either something sacrosanct that can't be altered to fit the game, or something that's entirely secondary to the game mechanics? (Interestingly, the recommended video next to this paragraph is your video on "Bad writing: Why most games tell bad stories) Blizzard actually seems to get it - Starcraft 1 and 2, and Warcraft 3 all told excellent stories by blending the mechanics of the game - a fairly standard RTS format (admittedly by being the games that defined that standard) - with the narrative of the game. The one flaw with their format that I see is that they can't mix up who's winning which battles because of the campaign structure. Consider the flow of combat in SC1 and Brood War - every campaign swap leads to a radical change in the balance of power.
+rashkavar "I would argue that starting with game mechanics and building up narrative is almost as silly as starting a movie with special effects and trying to come up with a plot that justifies it."
Are you SURE that's silly? I'm pretty sure the folks at Extra Credits know what they're talking about most of the time, and I'm pretty sure that just about every franchise that ever became successful started out with a mechanic that was simply extremely fun to do, and then building a game around that. Sure, in most cases the story probably turned out to be terrible, but THE GAME turned out great.
Plus, in the examples you gave, I think the mechanics had already been worked out in games that had come out before that, so in many of the games where story comes first, those games worked because the mechanics they wanted to use had already been proven and simply needed adjustments and/or refinements.
Isn't it possible to come up with a good mechanic first, then create a story that allows it, and then make a game from there? Just because a game starts with a mechanic doesn't mean it's can't be plot based... Right?
I typed this here because it feels like a message with as much effort in it as yours should have gotten a reply from SOMEONE.
Story is important, it's okay to start with a story. Story is what people will remember at the end. But the _game experience_ should always start early with mechanics.
This is how actual stories start too. You get shown a protagonist, you get shown just barely enough about their world not to be really confused about what's happening, and BAM! the author hits the character with a new mechanic. There's something the character can _do_ that they or you didn't know about before. That feeling of having extra options, extra agency in the narrative, is what really draws people in. And that new agency defines how the character leaves the mundane to go do something epic. Harry Potter bk 1 spends 20 pages explaining how much Harry is not allowed to do magic, then BAM! he can talk to snakes. Waiting for more opportunities for Harry to use these new magic mechanics, and hearing them explained, is what _draws_ you to the story.
People will remember your game for it's story. But they play it for it's mechanics. And for the first half of your game, the story _is_ the mechanics. If you start with a story, you can build a game around that definitely, you just face an uphill battle building a few engaging mechanics that will tell that early story for you, without wall-of-text exposition. Early exposition should focus on _revealing_ these mechanical powers and _explaining_ how to use them in a satisfying way. If you have a great story, but you can't figure out how a few early mechanics will drive that story, you don't have a great story.
rashkavar well in the video he said that what was important was to she what kind of idea lies in the heart of your story and i dont see how this couldn't be true for spex ops. Spec ops didnt have a very defined story in the sense that it had character backstories or nebulous plotlines. It had a defined story because it had a message it wanted to tell and a clear idea. This idea could, as dan said in the video have been explored in many different setting and with different characters. Aso there are always exceptions especially games that dont relly on their mechanics. In spec ops the shooting is supposed to be meh and kinda samey and boring. The important part is that the player has to pull the triger not necessarily enjoy doing it. There aren't many games that can get away with that now are there?
The video doesn't say that stories should develop around mechanics, rather both should develop around a central theme. As what emotion do you want to convey or what idea do you want to present.
"Spec Ops: the Line" for example presents the idea of "war is hell".
Goddamn book report level
From a book standpoint, it's best to start with simple things, like character, setting, theme, and mood, but with no true idea of the direction you want to take them as far as plot. From there, (much like the level thing mentioned in this video) write your first chapter, making sure to thread together all the aspects you've just created. This chapter will almost certainly become something entirely different over the course of the book's creation, but it helps to have an anchor to ground your ideas in. In other words, start with a seed, and let your story bloom from there.
Actually, before writing my first chapter I have been spending a ton of time brainstorming. Not writing down any specific progression of events, but what characters I want, what events need to occur, and then build the context. I spend a very long time in the brainstorming part where I don't have any connection between plot, character, and so forth. I would agree that it is generally a good idea to start with the characters though. That determines what you want to happen to them to keep things interesting. Basically, instead of a linear progression from chapter 1 forward, I start with a bunch of characters and situations and expand outward to fill in the gaps.
101jir
I pretty much said the same thing (I think, it's been a while), I just simply might not have made it clear enough. I agree that you shouldn't start bridging together the myriad aspects of your story until you START your first chapter. I also said you should always start with chapter 1, but I never said you should continue on linearly from there. I simply meant that your first chapter gives you something to root your writing in.
CallMeCactusSok I get it now. I think.
Cool
Cody Nemo
It's been two months or so since I first watched this video, but having rewatched it now, I think I've picked out my least favorite thing about it: the assertion that story isn't malleable. That being said, I DO agree that having a full story already written and then trying to adapt it to a game is bad; this is one of many reason why book to movie to video game adaptations are inherently terrible. But yes, starting with the mechanics alone is a heinous idea, you're very right there. Look what Call of Duty did with its latest installment. They went in a new direction (started with setting/theme) added an admittedly impressive big name to the game in Kevin Spacey, and made a somewhat refreshing feature film of a game out of a stagnating franchise of tired cliches.
Maybe I play video games differently than everyone else, but I prefer the gameplay to so serve as immersion at best, and a distraction at worst (Bioshock and AC2 being two masterful examples of this done well). If there's no story - *cough* *Destiny* *cough* - I'm going to lose interest.
I disagree with a lot of this. One of the points he makes against having a story is that you have to cut some of it out later. Um, have you ever written a story before? You have to do that for any medium. In fact, there's a phrase writers use for editing: kill your darlings. But it's dependent. Here's a little tidbit of knowledge I got from an american game dev who went to work in Japan: In the western world, we tend to value story over everything else. In the eastern world, they tend to value mechanics. So if you're one of those who are making a video game where the mechanics are the main point of the game, then no, you shouldn't need to focus on story until later. But say you're working on a Visual Novel, or a story based RPG, or something similar to Life is Strange or Fran Bow, where the story dictates the mechanics then it's almost impossible to listen to this.
A lot of people look at Destiny as the thing for bad writing, but do you know WHY Destiny's story was so horrible when it first released? They REWROTE the entire story only a year before the game released. They didn't have much time to add it in. And the reason why that happened was because they thought that everything else was more important than the story. They were wrong.
Courtney Randolph so your point is that you shouldn’t remove content for a game even if it bloats the game and causes problems if your game is narrative based,
@@comradedoge5009 He doesn't really have a point. He did not put things into his head properly yet and do not know what applies when.
@@comradedoge5009 She meant that you have to remove content from a game whether you start with a story or not. So its a moot point.
@@Sewblon also that story is more important in some game genres/types than others.
yikes
Some seriously good advice here.
Those gears at 2:28 cannot possibly turn because of the way they mesh.
And the most random comment award goes to...
Þyénibfamyaujk
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Ørfelmyslkk
ßķaĺ jéģ héller høre en Cecilie?
This actually makes me unhappy. I am, first and foremost, a writer; secondly, an aspiring game designer. I've started several games (I'm really bad at finishing things. Any things. It's bad.) and I always start with a story first. I can't move, I don't know where to go, without some idea of story. And then, maybe I run into a wall. A mechanic I can't make. I modify the story.
Instead of saying "don't start with a story", say "be willing to adapt whatever you come up with".
Creation - all creation - is a process of minute and large changes alike, adding up into something beautiful and worthwhile.
Besides, start however you feel like starting. Whatever gets you STARTED. That is more important than any arbitrary rules - they do this with writing, too, make rules on how to write but when you ask famous writers so often they don't follow rules. We are all individuals who create differently.
Just start creating. You'll iron out your method and your creations as you go. Just don't become overly attached to an idea - chances are you'll need to toss it out or modify it later.
+Kunabee
THANK YOU.
Quite frankly, I feel that every game NEEDS to start off with some story or another. Really, the message should be on "don't focus on making a final draft of a story before working on a game" or "Be flexible with your story so it can fit within the game."
Saying you should build a game first and then write a story later is like saying to make a movie with really cool stock footage of random things and special effects and then try to write a story that can connect those videos together. It would ultimately just be a complete mess.
In the end, it's all about balance.
+Kunabee
Remember that mechanics are the best part of a game.
If a game has a story that is beautiful to read, but the game is boring to play, it'd be better off as a book. On the other hand, you could have something like Super Mario Bros. where the story is so ridiculous even Shigeru Miyamoto can't make it make sense, but it's the most successful franchise in history.
If you make something like Angry Birds or Minecraft, heck, you could sell that idea for a billion dollars and never have to work again.
I'm no designer, but you sound like someone who deserves to succeed, so I hope you gave the advice here some thought. But if you modify your stories to fit mechanics, then that sounds like you're willing to do what it takes.
Out of curiosity, did you ever finish ANY GAMES? Are they on the internet? The only game I ever finished was a space shooter I called SPACE CURSOR and it's not online anymore.
I can't say I have finished a game. I'm a writer, so of course my opinions have a big story focus.
I'm bad at finishing anything, though, so it's more that than anything else for why I don't have a game or a book out. I hope to make a career out of that, though, so hopefully I can get my butt in gear.
And yeah, you don't NEED a story. But stories can enhance games a lot, and if you start with a story for your idea than you need to modify it to fit mechanics. But that doesn't eliminate the fact that video games provide a wonderful storytelling opportunity, in a unique interactive medium.
To make more of games like Mario, Minecraft, and Angry Birds is denying the possibilities that video games present.
I do agree with that if it is a beautiful story and a terrible game, make it a novel.
+C4DNerd
Actually, that example... I don't think it's that good.
Video games don't really work that way. They thrive too much off good mechanics. Making a game, you could just begin by saying
"Man. Wouldn't it be fun to play a game where you could do XYZ?"
and start with that and set off on your way to make something amazing. Notch said he came up with the idea for Minecraft just like that, and ended up with a game he could sell for over a billion dollars, and if you read about how other games were created, a lot of successful games were made that way.
In an example that's not quite the same, but similar, I heard the Kingdom Hearts series came out of a question like that, too.
I don't know for a fact, but I'm positive things like GTA started like this, too, where they just started out with ideas for crime and carjacking and started crafting convincing stories after they made the mechanics. That would usually work horribly in books or film, but great in gaming. :)
And then of course, many games don't really even need stories, if you think about it.
If the Extra Credits team all worked in the industry, then I'm sure they must have seen many examples of games that actually came up this way, starting with a question that lead to a mechanic, and then watching a story come from that. Assuming Dan the animator isn't the only one who works in the industry, then they've hopefully got a lot of experience with these things actually working.
Kunabee Aww. I was kinda hoping you had a game I could look up. I like it when a person who sounds motivated and smart and gets my attention has a game I could at least look up once. Yes, I knew you said you don't finish things. I don't either. That's why Space Cursor is the only game I ever finished, and it is not online in any functional form.
Now that I think of it, I DO have a really crappy video of a version of Space Cursor that doesn't work properly on my TH-cam channel, but it sucks because the game is unfinished & doesn't work. I used to have a version of it that actually worked in a finished form.
And now that I think of it, the story for Space Cursor was actually pretty good, considering the ridiculous game it was for. XD
Honestly while I agree with you guys on a lot of things I don't agree here. Starting with mechanics may seem good but if you really want to deliver a strong narrative it is a bad idea. If you figure out a bunch of mechanics first then try to write around them then your story/world is going to seem disjointed.
You are right however that you shouldn't plan out the whole story first since that will lead to the same issue.
The way you should do it is to figure out the base of the story and mechanics simultaneously. No characters no heavy details just the base plot ideas and mechanics that would fit. Then build both up together in conjunction with each other. If you start with just one or the other then later down the road you will have to patch them together and it will show because they won't quite fit together.
Also if your story is so malleable that you can change it that easily then you have a generic cheap story. In a good story the narrative, setting, and characters should all work together to enhance it. If you can change the setting or the characters and the story is just as good then you did a poor job on your settings and characters because they weren't doing their job.
Look at Bioshock. That story blended everything beautifully. It couldn't have taken place outside of rapture, and it couldn't have taken place with a completely different cast. The setting and characters made the plot what it was. Putting it somewhere else or giving it different characters would have wrecked the beauty of what it was.
What nonsense you are talking about? You are creating a game. If you do not take account of your capabilities and do not make base gameplay loop enjoyable, you end up with boring game, full of poorly paced and portrayed story telling.
@@REgamesplayer I disagree, in most cases you would be right, but there are ton of examples where not, for example Inside, one of the best story driven games of all times. The game loop under your premise would be boring af, it is just running in one side and pushing boxes. But actually it is not, it is fun and very enjoyable games, because the story is delivered in a "mechanic" way. You want to run and progress through level because you discover new stuff about the world in every new environment you encounter
@@rancheraosborne I do not know why I was so angry back then.
Games which put story ahead of its gameplay have issues of being poor games. They are trying to tell that story, but gameplay feels tacked on. There is no reason why you can't come up with primary gameplay loop and then put equally great story on top of it. Hades is a great example of this.
To see if I under stand this correctly, I should start with a high concept instead of a story.
For example, A pair of star crossed lovers fight a mysterious organization. As opposed to Jack and Jill fight the Anonymous hackers, which limits you to a set of names, places, and events.
I needed this. All this time ive been coming up with simple concepts and themes id like to explore and basic structure for the story and the world its set in and after this video i spent 20 minutes working out a functional control scheme. With just the control scheme sketch figured out its already affected the core rules of the world and thus the setting and how the plot will unfold. Ive been binge watching this game design playlist and its contributed so much but this alone had a profound effect just in conceptual stage. You guys are great
It sounds like Bungie followed this for Destiny, then forgot about the plot completely.
perfect example is perfect example.
but wierdly enough they had the story first, then built the game around it and then scrapped the story.. leaving everything feeling meaningless however you play it.. unless you play with friends and just hunt exotics, then it is great because the mechanics works flawlessly :)
ShotgunVsHeart you learn something new everyday. I like a good time game story, but the fact was this was ridiculous. Characters not having the time to get you invested in the lore. The only thing I found interesting was the poorly explained intro. I feel like it would've had an epic story, seeing as how this is bungie, but failed to deliver. Its like my gaming booty call. When I don't want to play anything, I will just play a little destiny. It has no depth, but the pleasure is there. Just a disappointing game.
fbomb108 yeah, its really a great game, as long as you don't expect anything other then gameplay.
not worth the production cost though..
ShotgunVsHeart Why would they abandon the story?
***** they did, they tried to reach a wider demographic (unintelligent teens) and removed the complex story they had written for the game.
3:01 - Florence. Not Rome.
I knew that sexy ass dome wasn't in Rome
I personally believe that video games have the potential to be the greatest medium in which stories can be told, them being interactive and all. I feel as if a game's narrative can prove to be better than any story that can be told through film or writing because taking control of the story and participating in it is ever more immersive.
Thus, I have to disagree with this video. Working the storyline around the mechanics can turn out well but I really think that that is the reason for a lot of games nowadays having stories that are completely uninteresting. My personal favourite game ever is BioShock Infinite and I must say, when I finished playing that game the lasting appeal of it was not from the gameplay but the incredible story.
I feel as if people are playing games simply to 'have fun'. This may seem like it's the primary motive of gaming but in reality, having your primary objective being simply to make a fun experience is really simple. BioShock Infinite was fun but I didn't make it my favourite game of all time simply because it was fun. Rayman Legends is fun. BioShock Infinite is a captivating and tense masterpiece of entertainment. When I saw the brilliant ending to that game and the credits rolling on the screen, all I could talk about was the story. I didn't leave it saying, "Boy that was a fun game!"
I really think a lot of developers need to make interactive experiences that branch beyond simply having fun. We need to start telling stories that can only best be portrayed and represented through an interactive media. That would be gaming reaching its greatest feat, in my opinion. Focusing on the story only after you've sorted the mechanics seems very weak to me. Sure, a lot of the greatest games have done that but we could make games that are so much better if we try to tell a great story from the start.
It seems as if stories are just compulsory things developers need to add to gameplay nowadays. Why not create an experience where the story, gameplay and presentation all contribute to the same overall experience? An action movie director shouldn't decide on a bunch of action scenes and then work a story around them. The story and the mechanics should be in mind from the start, in my opinion.
Then again, what do I know?
+Andile Gumbo People like yourself are taking the concepts they are trying to convey in this video to the extreme, and missing the message entirely because of that.
He's not saying that story should be tacked on. He's not saying that you have to figure out every game mechanic before you know where you want your story to go.
What he is saying is that if you try to cram game mechanics into a predetermined story, it will wind up a mess. The method that James uses is to build the mechanics and the rules by which your game will be governed, then crafting the final draft story around the interactions that the game mechanics themselves will allow.
It's okay to have a basic outline of where you want your story to go, or how you want to build the storytelling of your game, but it's important to be flexible and willing to tune the story to fit the mechanics. It's okay to not have every ability or choice coded before you start writing, as long as you know the limits your game world is going to have.
I'm tired. Have a good night.
Duly noted, I apologize for my previous comment.
All what you said about Bioshock Infinite is why I think why a written medium like a book or a graphic novel would have been a better format for a story like the one in that game. The mindless, inconsequential and repetitive killing, plus all those video gamey power-ups and upgrades were a big distraction that didn't let me quite enjoy the experience in the end. The story was good, but a generic shooter wasn't the best way to portray it at all. I also believe that games are a powerful medium, but a mature medium has to know how to play with its own rules. Mechanical interactivity is what separates video games from all other media -mechanical I say, because all artistic mediums are interactive on a psychological level- so is an easy shot to say that both their 'power' and their unique way to convey meaning is mostly there. Hence, mechanics should be the driving force of a design, because mechanics are the weapons that the designer uses in order to give an interactive experience to the player. Therefore, truly successful narratives have to be tightly crafted around the interactive qualities of the game and vice-versa. You can't expect a highly affecting and effective narrative experience from an unconnected work. Every last bit of it has to work together, accepting the limitations of the chosen medium and embracing its strengths. Bioshock Infinite is not a good example because the chosen medium has seriously halt de effectiveness of a story that maybe in another medium would have been more effective.
This video was incredibly helpful for me. When I first started making a game, I had an entire universe and story plotted out in my head that I had been coming up with for ages. After watching this video, I decided to play some other video games and was hit with the realization of how fun grenades could be, and immediately started making a game with the mechanics of the grenades coming first to the idea of a fully fleshed story on the outset!
I find as an aspiring story writer, that a lot of your videos, especially the Hero's Journey, Storytelling as well as this one, can apply in many ways, and has helped me a lot with writing. Too often, I find myself creating stories that are inert, that end up becoming long waits instead of full on interest. There's so many aspects about the arts that I haven't even scratched the surface of, and your videos help build the bridge from where i am to the end.
So in other words, thanks Extra Credits!
I'm going to have to disagree. Really the story you want to tell should be taken more as a first draft or an outline. It gives you the basic idea of where you are going and the goals you want to hit, with plenty of room for revision. Without this you have no starting direction and nothing to build on.
+EmeraldDragon except for ya know... gameplay... and mechanics. Did we watch the same video?
+FarQcow This may come as a surprise to you, but some of us would like a firmer story line with our games. And that is okay.
"Without this you have no starting direction and nothing to build on"
Except for concept, and visual, and emotion.
Vitorruy1 Nah, You should outline the story first and make mechanics
@Reff_SQ Well, A good story can carry the game . Detroit is a good example for that.
This saved me from making that mistake, good thing I watched and listened.
I currently came with game idea and this helped me so much. To really put thought into what I and others are looking for in a game. The story is there, but its not set in stone. Thank you Extra Credit for this. I hope to be able to get it going and maybe one day you'll guys be playing it.
One of my all time favorite youtube channels. I love games, but the information in many of these videos not only applies to them but to a huge variety of subjects!
When you said "Rome" you showed a picture of Florence lol
It's feel contradicting to your video Extra Credits - Bad Writing - Why Most Games Tell Bad Stories
תומר פלח
I would say that there is some middle ground. Like the project my siblings and I are working on.
The story is already finished and the characters present. I drew most of the landscape and characters to go along with the book, so my siblings thought of a way to implement good game mechanics in a fitting way to the story.
We decided on J-RPG styled mechanics, since they approve best on the way the story is told and will not harm any part or content of the story at all :3
That video talks about the opposite, when writers have no freedom to do what they want. Here they talk about the other side of a spectrum when writers can do whatever they want, but game designers have no freedom in creating their game.
I'm really glad I saw this because there's a game narrative I've been mulling over for years now and recently even fully wrote down. I had hoped to make a game with this story with a team for a while, but this video (combined with some recent personal experiences) helped me realize that making a game story first and with other people would not work out well for me. So I've replaced my dedication to the overall story I created with dedication to a simpler, more fluid idea that perfectly captured the plot I thought of and simplified it to a single sentence. Although I'd certainly love to imbue a game with the original story I thought of, simply imbuing the ideas of that one sentence into a game would perfectly satisfy me
I have a vague story idea for my game. I've only written a few character interactions, designed some areas and made a basic plot. I don't want to plan too much before actually starting to work on the game, as this video taught me, the more you write, the harder it is to fit into your game.
Great video guys!
So in a nutshell, The mechanics give you the tools in which you use to tell the narrative, so make them first. Then with those tools start thinking about the narrative and how best to express it with the given tools.
I guess the making a story first part would make the developer too bogged down by all the details, instead of first making the game fun to play and then adding a narrative to make it even better.
What about start at a simple idea? ' ^'
aly pompom nah
like...saving the world by stealing all the cocoa?
***** Okay *puts in the list of games need to be made after RED*
I'd say a premise as opposed to a plot couldn't be much harm. Save the world instead of a human saving an alien world from an alien force.
thank god, i have all those ingredients, emotions and ideas to explore but din't have a story and for so long i didn't tackle my game because of that, thanks extra credits now i can start my game :D love you guys
definitely one of the most enlightening episodes for me so far Thanks EC!
I generally like what they said, but the whole "don't start with a story" worries me a little. Is this to say that any compelling narrative idea thought of before every single main game mechanic is doomed to make a game that will fail? For example, I've begun working on a game with its mechanics, obsticals, player challenges, abilities, and general plot drawn out in detail. Does this automatically mean I should abandon this project? So far I've managed to work around, make new ideas to complement both the story and new mechanics, and things are going great, so I guess I'm either worried that I am either wasting time, or am not completely convinced of the first claim...
just saying, great vid though...
Well you've already been able to make changes to both the story and mechanics it sounds like, so you don't sound completely locked in. Having some story(the idea) at the start is a good thing but don't be completely locked into that idea.
I think what they're trying to say is less "don't start with a story" and more "make sure you realize when you're just wasting time trying to fit an incompatible story and gameplay together, and start over". Having an idea (or multiple ones) for the story is good, having a fully written one ready and waiting is not.
Also, narrative != story. Important distinction IMO.
I think the problem here is when you start with a written medium, then try to translate that into game form. It's a bad idea to have your script written out beforehand, because the script is designed to follow a passive narrative format, not an interactive one. What worked in written form doesn't always work in gameplay form, in the same way that you don't write a TV show in the same way you write a novel or a novel the same way you would write a movie. This applies even more to games because the player isn't just watching a movie or reading a book, he's experiencing it first-hand and even driving it.
The EC team is recommending that you "write your story" through the iterative process of gameplay development. Write your story in tandem with writing your game so that narrative and gameplay shape each other. Instead of getting all your narrative down in book or script form and then trying to mold the game around it awkwardly, you should involve the story writing in every step of game design so that the game you create feels like a game, instead of a massive-media narrative with gameplay mechanics tacked on.
I talked to a friend recently who strongly disagreed with me, and I figured I'd post his thoughts here. He says you should always start with a strong story, well-defined from the beginning of development, and then you push the technology to be able to convey that story. I think I've seen games that did both methods correctly, and many games that did them wrong. There are lots of interactive movies that are nothing more than the player moving from cutscene to cutscene, interspersed with quick-time events and/or shooting that feel totally separate from the story. There are also games that feel soulless for their lack of a story.
His example was Bioshock, which I have not played so I cannot personally attest to or refute this. He says that's a game with a powerful story, and that they molded the entire game around conveying that story. I don't actually know the development process for Bioshock... it would be interesting to talk to the dev team and ask them. They may even have written articles describing the adventure, and/or a postmortem. Could be worth checking out.
Daniel Hale I have seen quite a bit of Bioshock, and what you say is still correct. The only reason Bioshock and Bioshock Infinite have such great stories is because all of the stories and worlds are backed up by the mechanics, even moreso in the first game.
Daniel Hale Hmm that wasn't the development process of Bioshock, I played the first Bioshock for a couple of hours and the entire Bioshock Infinite.
That games have a strong emphasis in the story and the narrative, and also their story and narrative are their strong points instead of the gameplay, but that doesn't mean that they do the whole story first and then designed the gameplay.
Tell your friend that check this article
www.gamespot.com/articles/bioshock-first-look-exclusive-first-impressions/1100-6110044/
that shows that the story and setting of Bioshock was heavly changed and the story and gameplay mechanics both evolved toghether from the story and gameplay mechanics of System Shock 2.
That's exactly what they mean. It's also why most movie or book based video games come out kinda just stinking really bad. Try and cram a 2 hour movie into a full interactive game. Not easy. This is why the best licensed games do their own story or add new areas in. Like the old Gameboy Color Harry Potter games. There were plenty of extras and add ons to make it a more engaging experience. Or maybe I'm just blinded by nostalgia on those two xD
This series has been, so far, extremely helpful for me; it gives so many great tips for making good games. Thank you so much!
Thank you. I'm an aspiring writer and artist who often draws pictures of the characters I create, I realised after watching this that I too am often falling into the cycle of building vast aesthetics whilst paying little to no attention to the central theme and message, and eventually, boxing myself in.
A lot of this seems just as applicable to non-interactive storytelling. I'm trying to write a draft of a novella, and I'm already finding the plot and characters I thought I had shifting into something else.
On the other hand, writing prose does make special effects and mechanics very cheap; I'm probably underestimating the freedom I do have.
Or, as George from Superbunnyhop said on his Doom/Rage video:
"Don't make a story driven game if your story isn't very good."
Oh my goodness, thanks so much! I was starting a little game project, and beginning with the narrative... So intimidating.
I started with the mechanics, then write a story those mechanics were suitable to tell. It really helped solidify the overall concept
say wait a minute
what if you start off with characters with the enphasis of enteractions & RPG turn based battle mechanics?
If you do that right it could work but, you will still need a focus on game play before story if you want the *game* to be engaging. Otherwise you will have every rpg maker game out there(although some RPG Maker games are good too).
Can you do a video of steps and ideas how to come up with a good story?
I would much like that, too!
This makes a lot of sense and actually can be seen even in something as simple as role-playing. I know that when my friends and I tried to follow a set mechanic we ended up frustrated easily, but if we let the story flow naturally then it worked out much better. And turned out not half-bad.
As an aspiring game designer this put my designs into a new perspective. Out of the dozen or so games Ive written onto paper, only a handful are about mechanics with the rest having a predetermined storyline in my head. I'll have to rethink my views, thanks for this insight!
I think another problem is that if you start with the story, you might be better off just making a book--many story-focused adventure games would be better books or movies than games.
you start with mechanics, and you're guaranteed an actual game.
1:38 guys. One of the games has become an alicorn. Seriously, guys. That just happened.
At first I was just sad then I started to think about the basic break down of my dream and then I got really excited because even in my story as it's written I try to cover as many possible situations and present them realistically
"Thomas Was Alone. Wow, a weird first thought to think..."
Thomas Was alone is a beautiful game about friendship and teamwork. Its narration is like a warm hug. That line above is the first sentence read. If you haven't bought this game, I really think you should. In my opinion, it's one of the best games of 2012.
One word: Metro
The last of us started with the story, not the base game and it's one of the most successful games in history.
Minecraft started with the mechanics and has no built-in story, and is _the_ most successful video game of all time. (Okay, Tetris is still far ahead, but we're catching up...)
That's simply not true. They already had made the whole Uncharted trilogy up to that point, so they already had all the basic mechanics and verbs already tested. They just build on top of their previous work and tweak it/change it/improved it in order to be in line with the new setting.
Thanks for the tip. I'm planning on creating a really story heavy game. I've got the main plot down and some of the characters but I have still no idea for most of the mechanics. You guys probably saved me a lot of headaches. I start getting the mechanics down first then and try to build my story around it.
This makes me think about one of my prototypes. It started from the idea "break the 4th wall", and I developed a short story. But there were no mechanic asides from this idea. We made several puzzles from the story. Not much gameplay. No code or assets could be reused since every puzzle has its own mechanic. It fails after 3 weeks. Now I understand why. Thank you, James.
Umm. What about The Witcher?
+Jasson Lara Nice question!
The Witcher Series is one exception in a whole sea of failures. They did never say that start with the story will inevitably lead to a crappy game, they said that this is the hard way and may be the reason to lead your game project unsuccessfull.
By the way, The Witcher games started with Geralt losing his memory, and they have different stories than the books. The developers took the universe to the game, not the actual stories to be told. They created their own story with a lot of new characters.
Hope that help you out.
Actually, the Witcher games already knew that they wanted to make an RPG based on a single character. So they wrote a story around that single character. The story serves the game, not the other way around.
By the way, there aren't that many new characters in the game, really. Most of the important ones are from the books.
Great stuff as always guys.
And you know, this really applies to all of gaming, not just the video kind.
As a DM of some years now, D&D sessions always come off as just... better written, when the players and how they interact with the mechanics do a good deal of the writing
Okay...
Extra Credits, you guys are simply awesome. Not for this video specifically, for all of them. I have been watching these for a while now... and I just figured I should mentioned that.
You guys = Awesome
keep up the good work, and if I am late, and you guys no longer make videos, I wish you the best of luck in whatever you are doing now.
Basically what this episode has taught me is, that as my team's designer and writer, I am personally responsible for the three failures we've had. That's good to know, since we're starting a new project come september. I will definitely avoid coming up with a story before mechanics this time. It's kinda hard given my novel writing background, but I will DEFINITELY try.
Nice video. I'm actually rewriting the intro to my book in which the narrative hasn't been figured out quite yet, so I'll definitely be putting the info in this to good use.
This is literally exactly what I needed. How the hell did I miss this when it's been around since 2013?
Hello Extra Credits team :)
I'm a Brazilian game designer student and i want to share with you some of my insights of this works. So sorry for my poor English, i'll try make me understandable.
Yesterday i was watching your video about Bad Game Writing preparing myself to a upcoming game project.
You guys in one topic explore how games have bad write, and how that is associate to the fact that a lot of designers came to mind that Mechanics and Narrative are separate things. And i agree 100% with you guys and salute you for the lesson.
But in this topic, you say its easier to begin with the mechanics, and most wiser to do so, advising your fans, transforming the two subjects in different topics of creation.
Curious about that theme, i research some of the making of of games that i believe have a great narrative experience.
And i found some examples of awesome games that begins with the mechanics, and some example of awesome games that begins with the story. And in both cases the designers are comfortable with their positions.
Undertale, Super Metroid and Mario series have amazing narratives, and the designers had the mechanics in first place.
In other way, Witcher 3, Batman Arkham Asylum, Prince of Persia Sands of Time and Kingdom Hearts have amazing narratives too, and the argument of the story its the first thing to come up.
Searching on more sites , asking colleagues around the world, i find more different opinions. Many have their creative process leveraged by history, others for mechanics. It's like great writers of fantasy who advocate have a scope of history, and others that claim just follow the dance of narrative. There is no perfect formula , or right way to do. You just have to keep in mind that all the tools of his game will flow to a clear center point.
So i came to a lesson that i want to share with you guys.
Its not about who came first, writing or mechanics, its about find a way of the two converge in a unique experience to the player. You can create a mechanic and imagine a great story behind it. Or you can create a writing and imagine a mechanic that fits it like a glove.
Toby Fox said that in some parts of this game, the thing that came up first its the music, and the other components are coming around.
I believe this is the lesson you guys want to spend to your students. Its not about what came first. Its about create things that are so associated, the player will only see a true, unique and complete experience.
No matter what your creation process. You just have to assimilate the mechanics and narrative and everything else as soul mates, made only to complement the other to a greater good.
What do you think?
Thank you guys for reading through all!
I love your videos!
Greetings from Brazil!
I needed to hear this. Here I was with two or three game ideas based on stories and wondering why I couldn't easily design mechanics for them.
Very well done, thanks for making this
Thank you so much for this, this information and ideas are amazing for me as a developer, and I plan on watching all of your videos. Thank you.
This does make sense and practical. It also shows that story is to video games what themes are to board games. They provide context to the game play and help facilitate engagement. However, you could always re-skin the game with another theme and it would work to a similar degree although there will be preference difference between audience segments.
Man, I'm not much of a gamer, but this guy has awesome points about creation.
This *immediately* helped me A LOT.
Just dropping a single solitary supportive comment without trying to disprove the points made in the episode. Nice work. Always enjoyable.
This is exactly how my friend and I started remaking a story we felt could have been way better than it was, in comic book form, we started by agreeing "more visceral, more cohesive, more personal, different interpretation of the original foundation", and we just started running with it, we made about 3 chapters worth of content in very loose bullet points, made beta panels and it kept adapting and changing once we were faced with the challenge of turning what was once a game into a comic. We are currently looking for an actual artist who can turn my 5 minute panels made in paint into actual works of art, but the basis of how this story and process is developing is very interestingly close to how EC suggests it should go in games.
This is something all game designers need to learn as a golden rule: always design with gameplay in mind. Be it characters, narrative, world etc. Make sure it's something that can read well gameplay wise first, before anything else. Character designs that translate well into different mediums, and are easy to animate. A world that is designed to have fun gameplay opportunities and scenarios. The narrative is only truly there to justify in game character action. I am not a professional game designer by any means, but i completely understand what good game design is. A narrative, no matter the scope, must always be cohesive with the gameplay in an ideal setting. Game design is about crafting experiences. Want a character to be liked? Figure out a way to make them beneficial to the player gameplay-wise first. Want a character to be hated? Make them do something the player will hate them for. Always have an idea in mind, but unless you are working alone, be aware that your idea will be in no way similar to the end result of your game.
Having read the comments, I have to say, this is all good advice, and you don't have to take it all 100% literally. "YOU CAN'T EVER START WITH A STORY! IF YOU HAVE A STORY IT'S WORTHLESS, SHOVE IT UP YOUR STORYHOLE, NERD!" seems to be the message a lot of people took from this video. What I took from it is, games need gameplay, development is a process (often involving other creative people with great ideas of their own), and anything you start with may (and maybe even SHOULD) change over the course of developing a game - setting anything in stone before you've even started is a bad idea. It's okay to have a vision for the end result, but it's also okay (and healthy) to reassess that vision periodically and go in a new direction to something better (or more possible to finish with the resources you have) that you might never have even thought of at the beginning.
This is especially true when working with other people. They are not you, they have their own ideas of what's cool, what's epic, what's moving, what's memorable, what's fun, what kind of costumes characters should have, what color enemies' hats should be, and just everything. Don't be selfish in the collaborative process and refuse to accept other people's ideas (especially people who you're working with because they are creative and skilled at creating the thing you're trying to create). Your vision, before it's received any feedback from others, is not some work of genius. You're not Steinbeck. Ideas you NEVER WOULD HAVE THOUGHT OF are the best ones, as long as you keep yourself open to them (which also doesn't mean taking EVERY idea every person has and leaving nothing of yourself).
As usual, this is a nuanced topic, and anyone subject to black-and-white thinking is probably going to have more trouble accepting my advice about it than they had with the video. If you ARE Steinbeck, I apologize. Go win a Nobel Prize in literature for your work writing games.
Wow, I think this one is the best out of the game design play list. I'm just a hobbiest and been playing around with RPG maker, so I had felt that I could ignore some of the mechanics.
I’ve been thinking about my character’s personality and story for about 2 years. Though taking your advice, I guess I should focus more in the mechanics that I’m brainstorming .
Awesome summary!
This is good advice for starting a story in general.
well said! sometimes knowing to much "Technical"s will constrict your creativity in story telling, i guess the knowledge can only helps you on judging and reviewing others work, it doesn't helps you on writing and story telling.
I really agree with you, I mean I have never made a game but I do like a good story and in truth if you make your story based on mechanics alone then you seem to lose out on great other story ideas. Mechanics are a limiting factor, but with a deep story already made you can work with mechanics to give a great narritive.
Sounds kind of like the theatre theory of moment work, as applied to games. I like it.
Looking Glass studios did this with Thief. When developing Thief 2, they listened to player feedback and tried to focus a lot more on sneaking&stealing rather than swordplay. So, instead of coming up with a story and working the levels around that, they took the opposite approach and designed the levels first to fit with more thief-like behaviour (mansions, banks, etc) then wrote the new story around that.
I have an incompleted story in mind. But from this videos advise, I'll start on the mechanics and head from there ^'^
i watch this episode religiously, to remind me to start with an idea. i do, it just quickly devolves into getting a story before i finish designing the basic mechanics let-alone make a prototype. i try to keep a simple malleable story when it comes up, but when story gets too big i put it in cold storage, make it a side project, or change medium
I've found it can go either way. Most (not all) of my games actually started with an experiential element I want to express through gameplay, and then I created the world and narrative after that. In one case I created an entire production bible for the world of one game, in the other I fleshed out the characters and discovered more about the world afterwards. And always with the understanding that I would have to translate what I had written into gameplay. Has yet to let me down.
Thanks, very helpful.
That's a good way to approach it as long as you have a solid idea for the conclusion. If you don't have a solid conclusion in mind, you'll just be creating a lot of story with no where to go.
Great stuff as usual.
What’s fascinating is that I developed my story based on game mechanics I know exist.
Also it seems rather like destructive working to build a piece of game all to just see how much it would cost; surely there’s a better and more efficient way to figure that out
I work non-destructively; especially since the issues presented in the video were totally based on the skill level of the team and seems specific to personal experience rather than the process of dev pipeline
If ppl don’t know where they’re going, or what they’re doing, how will they know what to build or practice building/what is worth experimenting on; having a strategic plan definitely helps stay focused
id frame it as dev is 90% research, 10% execution.
when i know what im looking for, i then know what the value of the things are, and can create a budget and execute accordingly.
This is a good video! I know why I dump loads of my projects now...
NOT ANYMORE!!!
Very interesting. Thanks !
Great video!
I have started making a game that doesn't even have a story yet, it has a ton of mechanics already built, but because of that, I now have a way to tell a story.
He must be a great networker and been in the right place at the right times
With my game, I not only knew what story I wanted to tell, but I also knew I wanted to make an RPG. So, I bought RPG Maker VX Ace (The newest RM at the time) and built a couple of areas, and now the game's almost complete.
thanks a lot for this episode !
I suggest : "how to end your game narrative" this one would be interesting !
While this video does seem to be spot-on for most games, there are some *possible* exceptions:
- Games with a well-established formula (like sequels, etc.)
- JRPGs/Visual Novels/Telltale Games/Any other type of game with a _heavy_ focus on story
---Edit: Actually, now that I think about it, these types of games work because they happen to know exactly what kind of gameplay they can do, so... Yeah. The video's spot-on about all of these after all.
I think it's good to develop a rough outline of what you want your game to be about and then work on mechanics. That way, if something doesn't work out, you can adjust. The issue you're explaining is fleshing out this huge, elaborate story and then getting attached to it, which compromises the mechanics potential. But if you're not attached to the story in the first place and just treat it like a rough draft, there really isn't a problem with writing the narrative first, granted you have enough time. The way the story unfolds can actually inspire great mechanics, if done right!
Nonetheless, this is a great video and I agree, a person should never flesh out every single aspect of a story before considering the mechanics, especially if they're prone to getting too attached to their stories.
Write story, put it aside than mechanics finally implement into mechanics/story...sold!!
Such good advice EC :)
I find all of this very useful I tell people this the time how if that is your plan start writing books
I tend to do the same. Find some neat ideas, see if I can implement them, then definite the story.
this can actually be applied to basically anything a person is doing: from designing a game to constructing an argument if you want to convince someone of a basic thing, say, watch THIS movie and not the other one... Thanks for this insight :)
i learned more from this video in 3 minutes than i did in school in a week.
How i personally saw this video was have your idea first wether thats a emotion you want to convey a cool idea for a game mechanic or a message you wanna send or basic story you wanna tell like 2 lovers that arent supposed to love eachother (i dont think they meant literally make it so your story can have a different set of characters or be detached from the setting but that the basic idea can so you can easily change the specifics and be flexible if need be) then make your basic mechanics not your entire game and either make or implement your story with your mechanics or just go full mechanics bare minumum story like mario sonic 1 mario party mechanics are your tools you need to make them first then use them to make and have the player interact with the rest of the game wether it be a gripping narrative a pure mechanic game or something inbetween