Argument from Authority in Martial arts ft.
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 ก.พ. 2024
- a little exploration of the argument from authority in martial arts, clip from the Livestream over @indefenceofthetraditionalma Wing chun framing by Eric Paulson, is it legit? and either way, why? #martialarts #combatsport #mma #kungfu #bjj #aikijujutsu #aikido #grappling #judo #jujitsu #wingchun #epistemology #criticalthinking #logic #fallacies
- กีฬา
Agreed we should not rest on appeal to authority. Just because Erik Paulsen can make it work doesn't mean _I_ can make it work. Also just because I can't make it work today doesn't mean I'll never make it work. Congrats on all the subs well deserved.
And stop catching me up!!!
Back in the race baby!!!
Dillman 😅😂
The best guy ever hahahah🤣
If your tongue is in the wrong position, that can nullify the effect.
🤣 Dillman the Beast
Glorious beards you have great vid thanks
I agree😎👍
Headkick in the background.
😎👍
🥊Beautiful🐉
🙏
There are loads of issues with logical fallacies/cognitive biases in martial arts in general and even in arts that are undeniably effective. The most common one I see, and even in Muay Thai and jiu jitsu, is "appeal to tradition". I once stopped training with a pretty high level jiu jitsu coach because when I asked him why we were doing something he almost literally said "idk, that is the way I was taught and it has always been that way so it must be right". I have a policy that if I see something like that in the context of martial arts I stop training with/under them because they easily could be teaching me bad habits I have to unlearn later and due almost entirely to some bs and irrational tradition that no one can explain clearly to anyone as to why it is being done in the first place.
"Appeal to tradition" first time I see someone word it specificaly like that, I love it! (stealing it haha) I've used the authority fallacy in cases of fallacious tradition techings etc. But yours is a more specific variant that adresses the problem well 👌
@@martialgeeks appeal to authority and appeal to tradition are very similar and usually if someone is appealing to tradition they are also appealing to authority. That isn't 100% always the case but usually speaking in order to make an ATT argument they start by appealing to the authority of someone or something. In the vast majority of cases both appeal to authority and tradition fit.
Sometimes appeal to tradition is a fallacy I've seen that. Sometimes tradition is the goal. I say as long as the adherence to tradition isn't an excuse for ignorance, which is what it sounds like you're talking about here, I say it's fine. Just my $.02
@ko it becomes a problem when tradition is used as justification and rationalization for doing something that is sub-optimal. It is simply not valid reasoning to say "This is the way it has always been done so it must be right". One could choose to do it the traditional way but rationalizing that it is the best or even a good way simply because that is the way people have done it in the past is a mental defect in our species similar to a bug in computer code. It really comes down to what the objective is. If the objective is to win fights then one should focus on that and if the objective is to in some way honor tradition then the focus should be on that. One is about unarmed combat while the other is more like an aggressive looking dance or yoga. There is absolutely nothing wrong with dancing or practicing yoga, I have a 45 minute a day yoga practice, but no one trains yoga and thinks they can fight. Some traditional martial arts can cause a person to build a dangerous sense of unjustified overconfidence.
I break martial arts down into a few overlapping binary categories like "living vs dead". A living art is one that changes with the times and examples could be jiu jitsu and muay thai. Muay Thai has been around in some shape or form for over 800 years but the Muay Thai of today is very different from the Muay Thai of 100 years ago, hell even 20 years ago. If you can demostrate that some tech is sub-optimal to pretty much any muay thai master and show them some reasonable/better alternative, the vast majority would be thankful and implement it. If we look at an art like wing chun it is pretty obviously a "dead art", which means the tech was established at some previous point in history, can't really be questioned, and the art hasn't really grown in any useful way since it was first really established. To think people 200 years ago knew more about pretty much anything than we do today, especially unarmed combat, is just objectively false and just as false as it would be to think they knew nothing. A mantra of sorts that I use to try and keep arrogance in check is "The man who thinks he knows everything learns nothing. The man who thinks he is perfect has no room for improvement" and another relevant quote is "A tree without roots can not stand and a tree without branches can not grow". Many of those arts don't have room for improvement and can't grow because they are unwilling to adapt due to tradition. I personally like wing chun and think there are lots of really useful concepts in it but try an experiment and take two equally matched people and have one train Muay Thai at a typical school for just 6 months while letting the other study wing chun at a typical school for a full year; in the overwhelming majority of cases the Muay Thai guy will just run over the wing chun guy. I argue that it isn't so much about the techniques in wing chun, although it does matter a little, but rather it is the training and bias based on tradition. If one gets lucky and finds a wing chun school like Francis Fong's school then that example situation would almost certainly go the other way. His school adheres to tradition while at the same time seems to understand that tradition doesn't win fights; the combination of attributes and techniques are what wins fights. Schools like Fong's are rare in most traditional martial arts.
@@crypticnomad Today we are in a world where martial arts are products. Products are made for certain types of people. All products adapt over time to their market or they die. Some products are refined even further through competition and some aren't. Every product that is still in production is meeting a market need whether you like it or not.
That said from my point of view even contextualizing martial arts as products or "styles" is the first in a long line of mistakes. Well not exactly. There are just more wholistic ways to train people, but you first have to know what the goal of training is, and where they are on their journey.
Again I say as long as the adherence to tradition isn't an excuse for ignorance I say it's fine. Peace as you continue your journey.
701 last I checked :D
Erik Paulson is a JKD guy under Guru Dan Inosanto. He's tested his stuff in Shooto fights. I dare anyone to tell him his techniques don't work. He's old but he'll break you.
I've trained with Paulson in 2002. He's a wealth of martial arts knowledge. I hope to know half of what Paulson forgot. Everything he's shown in his seminars has been gold.
I haven't said anything against Eric Paulson, in fact the very opposite, I said that he's right...the issue is with how many people engage in a fallacy even though their conclusion is true, it's a formal fallacy; picture this:
a) pencil fell on the floor
b) the coffee is ready
c) therefor it's raining outside
It could very well be raining outside but the premises have nothing to do with that, the argument isn't valid in structure.
Just like saying Eric Paulson is right because he's Eric Paulson instead of because the techniques have been shown to work, Eric is correct in the end but the issue is with how some people reach that conclusion.
@@martialgeeks sorry if it came off as a criticism to you. I enjoyed your video. I was just defending Paulson as I learned a lot of practical stuff in just a few days of training at seminars.
Martial arts techniques need to be pressure tested by each practitioner if you expect to be able to use those skills under a stressful situation in my personal opinion.
Anyway, new subscriber here. Best of luck
I also trained with Paulson in 2015 but trained jiu jitsu with him. He is like a walking encyclopedia of martial arts in general. He is not a normal human. He can probably do a lot of things us mere mortals could only dream of
🎉 woo
The grey area seems to be around expertise. Yes, argument from authority is a fallacy. But no one gets to explore the depths and efficacy of every martial art. We've gotten to see in recent decades that what's actually effective in the martial arts is a relative minority of arts/techniques. We've become skeptical, and I 'd argue that this is for the better. But if a well established expert tells me I'm wrong about an opinion, I'm more likely to be open reexamining that opinion. Hopefully, I can manage to keep an open mind, but not so open that my brains fall out.
Exactly! Depending on the subject ofcourse but if an esablished expert tells you you're wrong you should br all ears and it should in the very least peak your interest to truly evaluate the situation, all good as long as we don't immediately accept everything at face value from "authority" JUST because it's "authority"