I for one am glad we're entering an atheist age. I think religions should be a personal, and crucially adult choice. Teaching children that something in this text is true and infallible, is dangerous to me. If it could be enforced in any way, I would say religions shouldn't be allowed to be forced on children.
@@LynneConnolly It's a shame it's not that way everywhere. If it was, I'd imagine there'd probably be lots of small religions, but no large ones, and lots of individual sets of beliefs.
And then there's the other dichotomy. My sister and I went to different schools. I passed the 11 plus exam, and went to a grammar school. I got the kind of education that you have to pay for today. My sister "failed" the exam and went to the local secondary modern. I left school with a fistful of exam qualifications, went to university (twice) and ended up with a senior management job. My sister left school at 16 with no qualifications and became factory fodder. She did okay, but never travelled, never broadened her horizons intellectually, and has a limited life. They abolished the grammar schools in most areas, and instead of bringing comprehensive schools up to the level of grammar schools, just left the secondary schools to sink. All the money went into the public schools. If you can draw the inventors, scientists, artists and so on from a wider pool of well-educated children (which includes instilling the ability to be curious about stuff) then you get a lot more people who can demonstrate competence and maybe change things for the better.
@LynneConnolly. People say the Comprehensive system failed. But it had to go because it no longer reflected the times we lived in. The post-war era of general prosperity and a common culture suddenly disappeared. The first Comps , trialled in Leicester in the early Fifties did very well. Social divisions had begun to disappear. Everyone had aspirations. Then a new anti - culture arose. And people sought the refuge of the Grammar School. Who could blame them.?
@@saxman1276 How? Was I supposed to teach her the Latin I had just learned? I helped her out practically, showed her the best way to interview for a job, that kind of thing, but she never had the education that taught her the rest. And I couldn't have given it to her. She was in an environment where those kinds of aspirations weren't welcomed.
No greater example of the damage private schools do than Boris Johnson. Arguably the most damaging and underqualified prime minister in our country's history and he only got to that position thanks to the privilege, access, and leg up that noted private schools give their students, that propel them into positions or roles far beyond their capabilities and far beyond anything they deserve. Not only do private schools give these kids access and privilege far beyond anything most ordinary people can reach even with hard work and ability, but it also instills in them a sense of superiority and arrogance that they deserve to be in those positions of power and wealth, and that they are better than anyone else. You only have to look at the disdain Johnson had for experts, such as scientists during covid or experts talking about Brexit, to see the ingrained arrogance and unearned self confidence these privately educated elites have. Similar is seen in the likes of Farage or Cameron, also privately educated, also ignore experts, also believe they know better than anyone, all despite them being mediocre performers and of mediocre ability. Private school is not the only ladder that allow ability and hard work to be cheated, daddy's money, daddy's connections, the in built prejudices existing within organisations, are also big parts, but the connections, the reputation, the old boys network, that come from going to elite private schools push undeserving spoilt kids into positions of power and responsibility and teach them the sense of entitlement, arrogance and delusion that they not only deserve to be there but that they are entitled to be there, that then allows them to do so much damage.
Thought you were describing JOB as he went to Ampleforth, boarding school which gave him the life skills to achieve his current privileged position. As someone who was born and bread on council estates by a single mother until I was 13, the only people I truly dislike are those who criticise their privileged upbringing as if they are a victims.
@@RugbyMattersYeah, its not so much that O’Brien went to private school, its the fact that he sends his own children to private schools, thereby playing his own part in perpetuating the class system that he professes to hate. Incredible level of hypocrisy.
@tajj7. Everybody talks about Eton - but it isn’t typical. It’s a one-off dumping ground for the children of the very rich and famous. A sort of compound. I don’t know about its educational values. But I have serious doubts. I wouldn’t want my children to go there.
I went to private primary school and state secondary school and saw both sides but attending state school I feel made me better in so far as I broadened my understanding of society, of diversity and inequality and that society is complex, sociology is my passion
I live on a council estate, my eldest child is on her fourth cap and gown, but it won't happen now, because there is no longer the access, for the poor and all that talent goes to waste, so society is poorer for it.
I'm in a younger industry, I remember probably starting 7 or 8 years ago (when I was about 33) my younger coworkers, under 26 at the time all the way to fresh out of school, I started to feel like I was being treated differently in a bad way. It was as if the daddy issues came out from everyone, a sense of projection. Heavier accountability for things that had nothing to do with me, or a low level rebellion against me for my seniority, like I was a threat to other people's advancement. And at one point, a younger girl, 18 or 19 at the time when I was 36, she verbally stated she thought I was 50. I can't really blame the perceptions of this time relativism, but it matters. I remember feeling being over 30 was old when I was there age, but at that age you don't really even know what that means. Now that I'm over the hill tangibly, I feel it a lot more. I can't do what I was able to do in the way I was able to do it anymore. It's going to get harder and I don't know how I'll survive it.
@eddiecalderone is a 999 millionaire jealous of a billionaire? you cannot spend billions in a lifetime. capitalism you start from zero and you make your own way. at the moment we're creating hereditary oligarchs.
It’s the networking as an advantage that creates the privilege and the confidence of exceptionalism that is wrong . Not all pupils have the opportunity to study in a quiet supportive environment . Regard the child poverty levels in Britain . Loads of very bright children will never have equal opportunities
Atheism? The UK is/was the epicenter of science and technology. Raised in a Canadian Anglican (C of E) hotbed, I value Justin Welby's take on things. But .. given the UK's scientific leadership, along with the religious undertones present in global atrocities, is it any wonder that the recent England - Wales religion survey revealed a sharp decline in faith?
Grammar schools in Northern Ireland are pretty different from fee-paying schools, you can go to a grammar school with just the information you learn in primary school (as in, you don't NEED private tutoring, I didn't have private tutoring) and it would cost the same amount in terms of uniform, bus pass etc as a high-school. There are not huge annual fees to go to a grammar school in NI, and you can be eligible for free school meals etc. There is definitely still a class divide between grammar and non grammar, but it is nowhere near as large as the class difference between private fee-paying and public in England
@@kevinmurphy2562 correct yes but I'm saying it's completely possible for an averagely intelligent child with an average home life to go to a grammar school, but it is very unlikely for a child to go to a private fee-paying school UNLESS they are in the financial 1% or academic 1% and get a scholarship if you get me. Many of my peers in grammar school were eligible for free school meals or uniform vouchers, so they were likely not paying for private tutoring (my family were not). So yes it gives a student an advantage, but ultimately a pretty average child could still go to a top grammar school with the amount of prep completed in an average P6/P7 class.
I think the atheist rise might have something to do with going to a church of England Jr. school while simultaneously being taught how the CoE came about. That and having access to the worlds knowledge in your pocket. Much harder to sell religion to kids when they can google everything you try to pass onto them.
Religion - I was 7 when I asked my first controversial question "Did Jesus have brothers and sisters?" to which I was told to wait outside until Sunday School was over, I did ask other questions like "Did Jesus ever race goats? or Did Jesus ever have a Girlfriend?" for which resulted in the same punishment so that all the other parents knew who was naughty and should be punished, this was at the time I was marching with the Orange Lodge on Saturdays and repenting in the CoE on Sundays. When I was 11 on return from the dentist, I asked my father what the point of going to church and being part of the lodge, the result was swift as in a smack around the head and the Do as you are told Lecture. Until I was 14, my mother made participate in the choir and follow her to church, even though it was not my choice and I could argue my case not too, it always resulted in a smack and the you'll do as you are told lecture. On attending college, getting my first motorcycle, getting my own income, it finally started to become my choice. At the age of 20, the stark realisation of man's in-humanity to man was in the Gulf War 91, what we were told, preparation and the prayer and the final result in seeing what we could do to each other, at that time I was Agnostic, after, for a long time I had no faith in a lot of things, I was on the front lines, I was out there for nearly 7 months, I saw Basrah Road, buried and marked the temporary graves. For me there was no more starker reality than then, the only solace I have for the my part in that, as my daughter was old enough to understand, she forgave me. Sorry for the ranting.
I’m Labour through and through. Working class. The private school system is disgraceful. However we had 11+ and I passed. It was the way out/up for working class families. It wasn’t fee paying. It was a bad thing that the Labour government got rid of grammar schools. It was wrong to take away that life chance for poorer families.
@Labour didn’t get rid of Grammar Schools as such . They listened to parents who hated the 11plus exam. The Comprehensives then became unpopular because of the impact of huge social changes outside. The general standard of behaviour in the country at large seemed to have gone into free-fall , and parents took fright : they wanted more segregation and control.
James, did you know that in terms of academic results the children of identical backgrounds do pretty much the same in private and state schools. The advantage which accrues is all about making contacts with influential parents! What else can it be?
the quality of education is always a factor. The best teachers, the most gifted, tend to go to public schools and the comprehensives in the better areas. Because they get paid more and they get more job satisfaction.
@Lizzy1 ES. I’m so disappointed with this debate. Every contributor seems wedded to the view that education is nothing more than a ladder of opportunity. For them , it is a system. The content means nothing to them : this is the triumph of Utilitarianism over real cultural health and genuine progress.
Im lucky to have gone through an education system that, while not being perfect, has done a lot better on equal education for all while ranking higher internationally. But the effects are too intanglible to explain to someone from Britain, as a place where the rich mark it as a given while the poor have normalised it as a (rather distant) aspiration.
AI says that plumbers, barbers and cooks are going to survive the brave new world ahead of us but high education jobs aren't so secure... So is paying for higher education a fool's errand now?
@catherinemoore. Higher education gives us the thinkers, analysts, philosophers and social critics that we desperately need in these turbulent times. But I’m glad that cooks and barbers have a future. As for the plumbers - they are the new aristocracy, or so it seems.
17:34 My concern is that we're not really talking about educational standards but about the accumulation of bits of paper that certify entitlement to higher earnings. All universities fall into this category these days with very few families being able to afford to purchase that bit of paper for their children. Having talked to a few teenagers with excellent GCSE and A level results, destined to go on to university, I'm not sure it would be accurate to describe them as 'educated', though their families have certainly succeeded in procuring them the necessary bits of paper. Often wealth is a huge factor here relating to school catchment areas, so the injustice and unfairness (to children generally) is not remotely limited to affording fee paying private schools either.
My kid is going through a European education system and from about 13 they start doing work experience as part of the schooling. So a stint in a kitchen or hotel or business for 2 weeks. as they get older and in higher school education, the longer (upto 6 months), and more specific the workplacement to help with their education . so they get practical experiences and several different industry contacts along with their education so the industry gets capable new employees.
I think that it's not really attaining a superior level of education, but it's the social connections fostered. It's a sort of members club where they look out for each other at the exclusion of others in the society. That is the real tragedy
JOB who went to Ampleforth, a very prestigious boarding school that taught him the life skills to achieve his current privileged position. As someone who was born and bred on council estates by a single mother until I was 13, the only people I truly dislike are those who criticise their privileged upbringing as if they are a victims.
Private schools do Unmeasured damage to individual pupils and broader communities. As a recipient of Private education I would want it banned as divisive and corrupting
Yep. Every teacher in the country or every 'junior' nurse should get a 'better job'... Then how many teachers and junior nurses will there be? (especially if you have a ban on foreign workers bringing their own children into the country)
@samuso. Most of the foreign workers seem to be either badly-paid care-givers , (serving a rotten system) or doctors and dentists who send their children to private schools. As a Leftie, I just find it all a bit puzzling.
There's different between independent schools or Eton. It's freedom choice?. A bright child needs stimulation does state school privide this? Village school gives more like private school.
I'm fairly sure James answers this question at some point (or maybe he doesn't), but if private schools are as damaging as he says (and as someone who's only ever been educated within the state sector, and who doesn't have the finances to send my own children to fee-paying schools, even if I so wanted to, I don't doubt it), why does he send his own kids to a private school?
For someone who has been to private school, state school, and an academy, I don’t buy what you’re saying. All schools follow the same curriculum, so it's not like you learn anything fundamentally different. When I was in an academy, most students didn’t care about being there, and that’s more about values and manners taught at home, not the school itself. In state schools, while there’s a mix of experiences, one thing is clear: teachers often don’t get paid enough to truly care. Better pay could lead to better motivation and outcomes, but it’s a systemic issue. As for private schools, people choose them primarily for networking opportunities and the social etiquette that can benefit students in life. Why should someone who has already succeeded in life be penalized for wanting the best for their kids? Higher taxes are already paid, which contribute not just to public healthcare, transport, and state schooling, but also to welfare programs, public infrastructure, emergency services, environmental protection, and more. These services are essential, but those who send their children to private schools often don’t utilize many of them. If there’s going to be a tax on private schools, then there should also be tax deductions for services people don’t use. Regarding career paths, yes, coal miners are an example, but let’s consider a plumber. A plumber working for a company can be hardworking but will only reach great heights if they take the risk to start their own business. There’s a difference between people who take that chance to do better and those satisfied with mediocrity. People with courage and ambition shouldn’t be equated with those who don’t pursue further opportunities.
The host attains new depths of infantilism. The superrich won't be affected as they will continue to send their children to the top schools as normal. Those parents who scrimp and save to give their children a private education may be forced to use the state sector, yet not one scintilla of regret by O'Brien how uprooting a child mid-year might damage them.
Some people do it so their children can befriend the right people. The kid in private school next to yours is the son of a CEO of a large company. In 20 years your son can knock on the door of his old school friend and get high paid a job in upper management.
Surely that puts you in an endless loop of disagreeing with yourself? Man who goes to private school criticises private school because he’s ‘damaged’ by private school. So then he’s wrong to criticise private schools as he’s so often wrong because Private schools don’t ‘damage’ people like JOB who criticised private schools. …… got ya
@dp7580 He is damaged because of what happened specifically to him decades and decades ago which is probably best being left off this platform. Swarbrick went to a private school and is nothing at all like O'brien , I suspect Ferrari may have done aswell. Jane's is a deeply damaged and hateful person , you witness it is his voice everyday.
James does not understand that most people who pay for private education are obsessed with academic achievement and life time wealth and THAT is a large part of why their children do well. If those children with those exact parents went to a state school they would do just as well.
Love your neighbour as yourself, it's the foundation of the Christian faith, so how can you love only your own child, because you have the privilege to do so, wouldn't the response be to pull all the children up together ,so that the poor don't pay the price of the iniquality, and fill our prisons. " When i was in prison you visited me". ( Christ )
I was told by a major international recruiter to ´´Look for your last job at 47 or 48´´. ´´No company recruiter will ever employ anyone either older or better qualified than they are´´.
For state schools hiring teachers you can generally knock 10 to 15 years off that, because very few want to employ the very experienced teachers who are more expensive and harder to bully into working themselves into an early grave.
It’s appalling to let private schools to cream off the best pupils - that damages the education of state school pupils who need the example of clever pupils at the school
I question the suggestion that 'private schools cream off the best pupils.' I'm as anti-private schools as any of you, in theory (although as a libertarian, albeit a leftist one, I am ambivalent about banning them outright), but as a product of the state school system, I don't wish to be patronised. I don't need posh kids or supposedly 'clever' kids to 'inspire' me to reach for the stars. I worked by backside off at school, and I generally did very well. The obstacles I faced had nothing to do with a lack of motivation or ability (and if it did have anything to do with the latter, and in view of my high grades during secondary school, I doubt that, there's not much a posh or clever kid could do to change that, other than make me feel more hopeless).
@@GregOrCreg I am sure this is true in your own case, but there is a lot of evidence that a class with high achieving pupils raises the standard overall. It’s not about being posh it’s about clever children setting an example to which others could aspire - well I suppose that’s it. That’s why I’m very much against private schools having bursaries for the clever children amongst poor families
@@Lizzy1ES I agree with your argument (about bursaries) but I'm probably coming at it from a different angle. I think there are a lot of very intelligent kids who don't reach their potential, for whatever reason, until they're in their teens. Also, many smart kids come from chaotic family backgrounds, have parents who are relatively uneducated, belong to socially marginalised groups, or have various disabilities and neurodivergent 'issues' that mean they're not always identified by teachers and schools for bursary/scholarship potential. Besides, I'm sure there is a limit on how many bursaries are available to smart kids from inauspicious backgrounds. I'm sure some bright privately-educated 'working-class' spark will 'contradict' me here, but in my personal experience, the kids who tend to get bursaries or attend grammar schools (which were originally supposed to educate intelligent kids from working-class backgrounds) tend to be upper-middle-class chldren whose parents can't afford the full, exorbintant, fees for private schools, but *can* afford to pay for private tutors to coach them into passing entrance/11+ exams etc. Council housing estate kids, kids with few to no books at home, kids whose parents left school at 16, and so on, tend to get ignored by private/grammar schools, and such establishments certainly aren't on their parents' radars.
I think the problem is...and am not sure how you legislate....is with employers believing that certain schools on a cv have the candidate at the top of the list.....when, apart from a nice accent and manners, it usually indicates a lack of real intelligence, they were 'poorly' educated, lack a work ethic, suitability, inability to accept responsibility, inability to lead, lack of honesty and a belief everything comes easy....therefore the last people you would put in nearly every role in nearly every sector. If the myth of the name/s on a cv is hacked down and it becomes the negative it should be in most cases, then let minted parents spaff their cash on these schools. At the moment, it isnt the education they are buying, it is the name on the cv..
O'Brien is a decent man although I don't agree with much of his opinions. Whatever about that, what mystifies me is, as someone who went to a prep school and THEN Ampleforth, he effects a "Mockney" accent. I went to two prep schools in the Cotswolds (where else?) and emerged after the requisite number of years sounding "posh". It can't be helped; it happens by osmosis. Does he feel listeners won't take him seriously if he sounds like what he really is, ie an English public schoolboy? Al Murray does the same thing- it's so transparent and phoney. If you really want to know how O'Brien should sound, TH-cam a terrific CH.4 documentary about Ampleforth from 2002 called My Teacher's a Monk. It's all there!
They kind of are. They institutionalise entitlement because no one around you is ever really less well off than any one else so you don't mix with the reality of society.
Ok so how difficult is it for people who are immensely intelligent but are bogged down with a difficult life. So rather than having an education that gives them a goal that they aspire to they are concentrating on surviving. With the current factory march of education they would be one of these less disciplined people you refer to. So I would ask what sort of life have you had and why do you think that only certain people should be educated to push our country forward?
@@boo4677 I am from China, my parents had no education made the old England football team umbro shirt for 1pound per hour. They worked hard from that and accumulated wealth and send me to UK to study university. Since I was 7, I woke up at 6 in the morning and read English out loud for 20 mins everyday, studied for 12 hours a day maths, physic, biology, chemistry in class with more than 50 people for 10 years. I have never slept before midnight on weekdays since 10. Results? I graduated from Oxbridge engineering and got into finance. Cry about that.
@@tim2138 no that is incredibly hard work but my statement applies to your parents imagine what they would have achieved is their intelligence was recognised. You say they never went to school, but they recognised that to be able to progress you had to work exceptionally hard, harder in fact than anyone who’s parents were elevated by status. My parents left school before 16 in the UK. They moved to Spain when I was 14 I didn’t return to school for 15. Worked until I was 18 in Spain and then returned to the UK. I obtained qualifications to go to university to study Law, had 3 children with my abusive ex husband while at university. I finished my degree but due to the lack of support I didn’t go into law. I am currently working to get a nursing degree to get a career to provide for my children. The main reason for pushing on is to show my children that you never give up. I cannot put them in a private school and I do not agree with them but I am educating my children as to how the world works and the generational changes need to be thought of as steps. Each generation takes a step up. So I am working hard to allow them to not have this struggle. I do not think that private schools help society elevate itself because they do not have that exposure to struggle and hardship which gives a perspective on life.
The Private school argument comes from the wrong side of the problem. Private schools and the obvious advantage of them is not the problem. The problem is the lack of advantage given to everyone else in state run schools. if you deny that advantage to everyone then all you will do is secure the advantage to only a certain number of people who are born to the correct family rather than restricting it to everyone. It would be better to have a root and branch review of education as a whole and provide the same advantages and educational level to all people which would minimise the benefit of private school and allow more people to benefit from that double sized shopping trolley.
Discouraging education at private schools will only mean more work for people like me. Just today I had a parent sign their child up for private physics and maths tuition. Their comment was: "however many hours are needed, whatever books are needed, we will pay".
A typical socialist view. He is happier to see poorer off children being less educated, as long as children of richer parents are also less educated. Increase the cost of private schools. The really rich can still afford them, those on the edge move children to the public sector, which increases class sizes which impacts on their children and the other childrens education. A classic example is the recent case of a mother who pulled herself out of private school ahead of the VAT implementation. The local authority didnt have any places in local schools, so is paying to send her child back to the same school they were in. Well done Labour (slow hand clap).
And yours is typical ignorant right wing view. 7% of school age children go to private schools, the percentage of children from that 7% whose parents won't be able to afford an increase in prices are a tiny fraction of those 7%. A completely irrelevant number of children that has no real grand impact on the state schools despite what the right wing claims. It is about as dumb as claiming the small boat crossings of 30-40k people a year, 30% who can get deported anyway, have any material impact on housing or the NHS. You also do not increase education standards across a country by allowing a very small percentage of wealthy children to get better education, you invest in all children's education so that more children can achieve and learn whatever their economic background, that in turn creates more educated people, more innovation, more well paid jobs, and thus more tax. The whole point is to take away the tax exemption so that the money can be funnelled into state schools to improve them. Private education is a simple luxury, if you cannot afford it, tough luck. Earn more money or spend less on other stuff. The right wing keeps harping on ridiculously claiming that young people could afford houses if they spent less of coffee or netflix, despite the fact that house prices are around 6 to 7 times the median wage in this country, if not higher and the people making these dumb claims bought houses when that ratio was around 2 times or less the median wage. But it applies quite well here, an increase in VAT on private school fees, probably only equates to around £1-2k a year in many cases for people already paying around £10k a year or more in school fees, so don't buy a new car, cut down on your coffees and gym membership. Also I thought right wingers were about market forces? If a business cannot be run sustainably without a tax exemption from the government then it is a pretty bad business and deserves to go under. Maybe the private schools should stop spending all their money and be run more efficiently then they wouldn't have to rise prices and would be able to pay for the VAT. Rich people problem complaining about paying their fair share of tax, nothing more, nothing less.
Finland has the best education system in the world . Private education is illegal there . All the money is invested in maintaining high standards across the board for everyone
That's a backwards view of the issue. The point is to have a level standard of education and opportunity that isn't based on what school your parents were rich enough to pay for. Education should be completely level, not based on wealth.
Obrien says about remembering callers from years ago 🤔some stay in my mind too - like the giy in Newcastle who worked till 0300 in factory then walks dogs in the day or the guy of 50 odd who was atuck living in a van 😱🚛"People always Just want you to mové on" Then I tell myself however poor you are in the last week of the month- the poor sods on the other side of the property owning chasm are worse off 🏡🤔
I like that private schools are illegal in atleast one scandic country which forced the government to ensure everyone got that better education. We gotta stop copying America with these academy's and lean into the European models.
Privilege is a luxury and should be taxed
i think you'll find it is ?
I for one am glad we're entering an atheist age. I think religions should be a personal, and crucially adult choice.
Teaching children that something in this text is true and infallible, is dangerous to me.
If it could be enforced in any way, I would say religions shouldn't be allowed to be forced on children.
It's a great shame they don't think that way in the USA.
@@LynneConnolly It's a shame it's not that way everywhere.
If it was, I'd imagine there'd probably be lots of small religions, but no large ones, and lots of individual sets of beliefs.
And then there's the other dichotomy. My sister and I went to different schools. I passed the 11 plus exam, and went to a grammar school. I got the kind of education that you have to pay for today. My sister "failed" the exam and went to the local secondary modern. I left school with a fistful of exam qualifications, went to university (twice) and ended up with a senior management job. My sister left school at 16 with no qualifications and became factory fodder. She did okay, but never travelled, never broadened her horizons intellectually, and has a limited life. They abolished the grammar schools in most areas, and instead of bringing comprehensive schools up to the level of grammar schools, just left the secondary schools to sink. All the money went into the public schools.
If you can draw the inventors, scientists, artists and so on from a wider pool of well-educated children (which includes instilling the ability to be curious about stuff) then you get a lot more people who can demonstrate competence and maybe change things for the better.
You and your sisters schooling and resulting life is the same as myself and brother. 'I' being your sister 😢
@LynneConnolly. People say the Comprehensive system failed. But it had to go because it no longer reflected the times we lived in. The post-war era of general prosperity and a common culture suddenly disappeared. The first Comps , trialled in Leicester in the early Fifties did very well. Social divisions had begun to disappear. Everyone had aspirations. Then a new anti - culture arose. And people sought the refuge of the Grammar School. Who could blame them.?
@@belindamay8063 Actually, this was in Leicester, but it was a lot later than the 50s.
You could've helped your sister out bro. Just saying.
@@saxman1276 How? Was I supposed to teach her the Latin I had just learned? I helped her out practically, showed her the best way to interview for a job, that kind of thing, but she never had the education that taught her the rest. And I couldn't have given it to her. She was in an environment where those kinds of aspirations weren't welcomed.
No greater example of the damage private schools do than Boris Johnson. Arguably the most damaging and underqualified prime minister in our country's history and he only got to that position thanks to the privilege, access, and leg up that noted private schools give their students, that propel them into positions or roles far beyond their capabilities and far beyond anything they deserve. Not only do private schools give these kids access and privilege far beyond anything most ordinary people can reach even with hard work and ability, but it also instills in them a sense of superiority and arrogance that they deserve to be in those positions of power and wealth, and that they are better than anyone else. You only have to look at the disdain Johnson had for experts, such as scientists during covid or experts talking about Brexit, to see the ingrained arrogance and unearned self confidence these privately educated elites have. Similar is seen in the likes of Farage or Cameron, also privately educated, also ignore experts, also believe they know better than anyone, all despite them being mediocre performers and of mediocre ability. Private school is not the only ladder that allow ability and hard work to be cheated, daddy's money, daddy's connections, the in built prejudices existing within organisations, are also big parts, but the connections, the reputation, the old boys network, that come from going to elite private schools push undeserving spoilt kids into positions of power and responsibility and teach them the sense of entitlement, arrogance and delusion that they not only deserve to be there but that they are entitled to be there, that then allows them to do so much damage.
That's a mouthful. But so true.
Thought you were describing JOB as he went to Ampleforth, boarding school which gave him the life skills to achieve his current privileged position.
As someone who was born and bread on council estates by a single mother until I was 13, the only people I truly dislike are those who criticise their privileged upbringing as if they are a victims.
@@RugbyMattersYeah, its not so much that O’Brien went to private school, its the fact that he sends his own children to private schools, thereby playing his own part in perpetuating the class system that he professes to hate. Incredible level of hypocrisy.
@tajj7. Everybody talks about Eton - but it isn’t typical. It’s a one-off dumping ground for the children of the very rich and famous. A sort of compound. I don’t know about its educational values. But I have serious doubts. I wouldn’t want my children to go there.
I went to private primary school and state secondary school and saw both sides but attending state school I feel made me better in so far as I broadened my understanding of society, of diversity and inequality and that society is complex, sociology is my passion
That little clip alone shows why Brexit was a toffs game and we were all treated like a joke. Hate Boris Johnson
I live on a council estate, my eldest child is on her fourth cap and gown, but it won't happen now, because there is no longer the access, for the poor and all that talent goes to waste, so society is poorer for it.
I'm in a younger industry, I remember probably starting 7 or 8 years ago (when I was about 33) my younger coworkers, under 26 at the time all the way to fresh out of school, I started to feel like I was being treated differently in a bad way. It was as if the daddy issues came out from everyone, a sense of projection. Heavier accountability for things that had nothing to do with me, or a low level rebellion against me for my seniority, like I was a threat to other people's advancement. And at one point, a younger girl, 18 or 19 at the time when I was 36, she verbally stated she thought I was 50. I can't really blame the perceptions of this time relativism, but it matters. I remember feeling being over 30 was old when I was there age, but at that age you don't really even know what that means. Now that I'm over the hill tangibly, I feel it a lot more. I can't do what I was able to do in the way I was able to do it anymore. It's going to get harder and I don't know how I'll survive it.
ban billionaires for a start! 100% TAX after £999 million
@shaun906
Jealous
@eddiecalderone is a 999 millionaire jealous of a billionaire? you cannot spend billions in a lifetime. capitalism you start from zero and you make your own way. at the moment we're creating hereditary oligarchs.
@@eddiecalderonenope, it’s essential to maintain a remotely equitable society. Imaging defending someone who thinks you are a cost to cut.
Which school you went to gets you up the greasy pole faster than others. Not your ability. Boris is the classic example.
So is James.
Lack of intelligence at full display here
Just imagine where he would be without his advantage.
It's morally wrong to treat children unfairly. It's morally wrong to segregate children into classes.
It’s the networking as an advantage that creates the privilege and the confidence of exceptionalism that is wrong . Not all pupils have the opportunity to study in a quiet supportive environment . Regard the child poverty levels in Britain . Loads of very bright children will never have equal opportunities
Atheism? The UK is/was the epicenter of science and technology. Raised in a Canadian Anglican (C of E) hotbed, I value Justin Welby's take on things. But .. given the UK's scientific leadership, along with the religious undertones present in global atrocities, is it any wonder that the recent England - Wales religion survey revealed a sharp decline in faith?
Grammar schools in Northern Ireland are pretty different from fee-paying schools, you can go to a grammar school with just the information you learn in primary school (as in, you don't NEED private tutoring, I didn't have private tutoring) and it would cost the same amount in terms of uniform, bus pass etc as a high-school. There are not huge annual fees to go to a grammar school in NI, and you can be eligible for free school meals etc. There is definitely still a class divide between grammar and non grammar, but it is nowhere near as large as the class difference between private fee-paying and public in England
You may not need private tutoring to go to grammar school but you will have a better chance of passing the 11+ if you do have private tutoring.
@@kevinmurphy2562 correct yes but I'm saying it's completely possible for an averagely intelligent child with an average home life to go to a grammar school, but it is very unlikely for a child to go to a private fee-paying school UNLESS they are in the financial 1% or academic 1% and get a scholarship if you get me.
Many of my peers in grammar school were eligible for free school meals or uniform vouchers, so they were likely not paying for private tutoring (my family were not). So yes it gives a student an advantage, but ultimately a pretty average child could still go to a top grammar school with the amount of prep completed in an average P6/P7 class.
Casually links supermarket sweep to a monologue about private schools. Love it >
Love watching James, in Australia, all private schools are religeous
I think the atheist rise might have something to do with going to a church of England Jr. school while simultaneously being taught how the CoE came about. That and having access to the worlds knowledge in your pocket. Much harder to sell religion to kids when they can google everything you try to pass onto them.
Religion - I was 7 when I asked my first controversial question "Did Jesus have brothers and sisters?" to which I was told to wait outside until Sunday School was over, I did ask other questions like "Did Jesus ever race goats? or Did Jesus ever have a Girlfriend?" for which resulted in the same punishment so that all the other parents knew who was naughty and should be punished, this was at the time I was marching with the Orange Lodge on Saturdays and repenting in the CoE on Sundays. When I was 11 on return from the dentist, I asked my father what the point of going to church and being part of the lodge, the result was swift as in a smack around the head and the Do as you are told Lecture. Until I was 14, my mother made participate in the choir and follow her to church, even though it was not my choice and I could argue my case not too, it always resulted in a smack and the you'll do as you are told lecture. On attending college, getting my first motorcycle, getting my own income, it finally started to become my choice. At the age of 20, the stark realisation of man's in-humanity to man was in the Gulf War 91, what we were told, preparation and the prayer and the final result in seeing what we could do to each other, at that time I was Agnostic, after, for a long time I had no faith in a lot of things, I was on the front lines, I was out there for nearly 7 months, I saw Basrah Road, buried and marked the temporary graves. For me there was no more starker reality than then, the only solace I have for the my part in that, as my daughter was old enough to understand, she forgave me. Sorry for the ranting.
I’m Labour through and through. Working class. The private school system is disgraceful. However we had 11+ and I passed. It was the way out/up for working class families. It wasn’t fee paying. It was a bad thing that the Labour government got rid of grammar schools. It was wrong to take away that life chance for poorer families.
@Labour didn’t get rid of Grammar Schools as such . They listened to parents who hated the 11plus exam. The Comprehensives then became unpopular because of the impact of huge social changes outside. The general standard of behaviour in the country at large seemed to have gone into free-fall , and parents took fright : they wanted more segregation and control.
James, did you know that in terms of academic results the children of identical backgrounds do pretty much the same in private and state schools. The advantage which accrues is all about making contacts with influential parents! What else can it be?
the quality of education is always a factor. The best teachers, the most gifted, tend to go to public schools and the comprehensives in the better areas. Because they get paid more and they get more job satisfaction.
@Lizzy1 ES. I’m so disappointed with this debate. Every contributor seems wedded to the view that education is nothing more than a ladder of opportunity. For them , it is a system. The content means nothing to them : this is the triumph of Utilitarianism over real cultural health and genuine progress.
❤ Sending love from the state of Illinois in the US ❤
Im lucky to have gone through an education system that, while not being perfect, has done a lot better on equal education for all while ranking higher internationally. But the effects are too intanglible to explain to someone from Britain, as a place where the rich mark it as a given while the poor have normalised it as a (rather distant) aspiration.
AI says that plumbers, barbers and cooks are going to survive the brave new world ahead of us but high education jobs aren't so secure... So is paying for higher education a fool's errand now?
And gardeners, cobblers and politicians
@catherinemoore. Higher education gives us the thinkers, analysts, philosophers and social critics that we desperately need in these turbulent times. But I’m glad that cooks and barbers have a future. As for the plumbers - they are the new aristocracy, or so it seems.
17:34 My concern is that we're not really talking about educational standards but about the accumulation of bits of paper that certify entitlement to higher earnings. All universities fall into this category these days with very few families being able to afford to purchase that bit of paper for their children.
Having talked to a few teenagers with excellent GCSE and A level results, destined to go on to university, I'm not sure it would be accurate to describe them as 'educated', though their families have certainly succeeded in procuring them the necessary bits of paper. Often wealth is a huge factor here relating to school catchment areas, so the injustice and unfairness (to children generally) is not remotely limited to affording fee paying private schools either.
My kid is going through a European education system and from about 13 they start doing work experience as part of the schooling. So a stint in a kitchen or hotel or business for 2 weeks. as they get older and in higher school education, the longer (upto 6 months), and more specific the workplacement to help with their education . so they get practical experiences and several different industry contacts along with their education so the industry gets capable new employees.
I think that it's not really attaining a superior level of education, but it's the social connections fostered. It's a sort of members club where they look out for each other at the exclusion of others in the society. That is the real tragedy
Invest in education, our children and our future . Too many short termist capitalists in charge
Do as I say, not as I did !!!!!
JOB who went to Ampleforth, a very prestigious boarding school that taught him the life skills to achieve his current privileged position.
As someone who was born and bred on council estates by a single mother until I was 13, the only people I truly dislike are those who criticise their privileged upbringing as if they are a victims.
@RugbyMatters. Many successful writers and journalists were educated at local Grammar Schools.
Private education perpetuates the class structure that you seem to rail against on a regular basis on your program.
O’Brian decent,no way
James did you say you and your sister were adopted?, I as well, unfortunately I was born into a family of serfs :)
Why don't rich people like you ease the guilt by paying for a poor person's private education.
Private schools do Unmeasured damage to individual pupils and broader communities. As a recipient of Private education I would want it banned as divisive and corrupting
eye eye comrade
Yep. Every teacher in the country or every 'junior' nurse should get a 'better job'... Then how many teachers and junior nurses will there be? (especially if you have a ban on foreign workers bringing their own children into the country)
@samuso. Most of the foreign workers seem to be either badly-paid care-givers , (serving a rotten system) or doctors and dentists who send their children to private schools. As a Leftie, I just find it all a bit puzzling.
"Is Keith is a cult?"
There's different between independent schools or Eton. It's freedom choice?. A bright child needs stimulation does state school privide this? Village school gives more like private school.
It’s the networking as an advantage that creates the privilege and the confidence of exceptionalism that is wrong
I'm fairly sure James answers this question at some point (or maybe he doesn't), but if private schools are as damaging as he says (and as someone who's only ever been educated within the state sector, and who doesn't have the finances to send my own children to fee-paying schools, even if I so wanted to, I don't doubt it), why does he send his own kids to a private school?
Your user name made me laugh... I get the feeble 'creg' as in "did he say his name is Greg or Craig?"😂😂
@@gregchew8225 In the UK, 'Craig' has a hard 'ai' sound, but I guess in the US, they pronounce it like 'Greg' with a 'C' (hence my confusion...)
Zero respect for age, acquired wisdom and experience
For someone who has been to private school, state school, and an academy, I don’t buy what you’re saying. All schools follow the same curriculum, so it's not like you learn anything fundamentally different. When I was in an academy, most students didn’t care about being there, and that’s more about values and manners taught at home, not the school itself. In state schools, while there’s a mix of experiences, one thing is clear: teachers often don’t get paid enough to truly care. Better pay could lead to better motivation and outcomes, but it’s a systemic issue.
As for private schools, people choose them primarily for networking opportunities and the social etiquette that can benefit students in life. Why should someone who has already succeeded in life be penalized for wanting the best for their kids? Higher taxes are already paid, which contribute not just to public healthcare, transport, and state schooling, but also to welfare programs, public infrastructure, emergency services, environmental protection, and more. These services are essential, but those who send their children to private schools often don’t utilize many of them. If there’s going to be a tax on private schools, then there should also be tax deductions for services people don’t use.
Regarding career paths, yes, coal miners are an example, but let’s consider a plumber. A plumber working for a company can be hardworking but will only reach great heights if they take the risk to start their own business. There’s a difference between people who take that chance to do better and those satisfied with mediocrity. People with courage and ambition shouldn’t be equated with those who don’t pursue further opportunities.
You don’t seem to understand risking taking is a privilege.
The host attains new depths of infantilism. The superrich won't be affected as they will continue to send their children to the top schools as normal. Those parents who scrimp and save to give their children a private education may be forced to use the state sector, yet not one scintilla of regret by O'Brien how uprooting a child mid-year might damage them.
Why did you choose to send your kids to a private school?
Some people do it so their children can befriend the right people. The kid in private school next to yours is the son of a CEO of a large company. In 20 years your son can knock on the door of his old school friend and get high paid a job in upper management.
Look at the damage it did to James.
Surely that puts you in an endless loop of disagreeing with yourself?
Man who goes to private school criticises private school because he’s ‘damaged’ by private school. So then he’s wrong to criticise private schools as he’s so often wrong because Private schools don’t ‘damage’ people like JOB who criticised private schools.
…… got ya
@dp7580 He is damaged because of what happened specifically to him decades and decades ago which is probably best being left off this platform. Swarbrick went to a private school and is nothing at all like O'brien , I suspect Ferrari may have done aswell. Jane's is a deeply damaged and hateful person , you witness it is his voice everyday.
James does not understand that most people who pay for private education are obsessed with academic achievement and life time wealth and THAT is a large part of why their children do well. If those children with those exact parents went to a state school they would do just as well.
Love your neighbour as yourself, it's the foundation of the Christian faith, so how can you love only your own child, because you have the privilege to do so, wouldn't the response be to pull all the children up together ,so that the poor don't pay the price of the iniquality, and fill our prisons. " When i was in prison you visited me". ( Christ )
I was told by a major international recruiter to ´´Look for your last job at 47 or 48´´. ´´No company recruiter will ever employ anyone either older or better qualified than they are´´.
For state schools hiring teachers you can generally knock 10 to 15 years off that, because very few want to employ the very experienced teachers who are more expensive and harder to bully into working themselves into an early grave.
Name the new section "Trash Bash". Sandy Reid
It’s appalling to let private schools to cream off the best pupils - that damages the education of state school pupils who need the example of clever pupils at the school
I question the suggestion that 'private schools cream off the best pupils.'
I'm as anti-private schools as any of you, in theory (although as a libertarian, albeit a leftist one, I am ambivalent about banning them outright), but as a product of the state school system, I don't wish to be patronised. I don't need posh kids or supposedly 'clever' kids to 'inspire' me to reach for the stars. I worked by backside off at school, and I generally did very well. The obstacles I faced had nothing to do with a lack of motivation or ability (and if it did have anything to do with the latter, and in view of my high grades during secondary school, I doubt that, there's not much a posh or clever kid could do to change that, other than make me feel more hopeless).
@@GregOrCreg I am sure this is true in your own case, but there is a lot of evidence that a class with high achieving pupils raises the standard overall. It’s not about being posh it’s about clever children setting an example to which others could aspire - well I suppose that’s it.
That’s why I’m very much against private schools having bursaries for the clever children amongst poor families
@@Lizzy1ES I agree with your argument (about bursaries) but I'm probably coming at it from a different angle.
I think there are a lot of very intelligent kids who don't reach their potential, for whatever reason, until they're in their teens. Also, many smart kids come from chaotic family backgrounds, have parents who are relatively uneducated, belong to socially marginalised groups, or have various disabilities and neurodivergent 'issues' that mean they're not always identified by teachers and schools for bursary/scholarship potential. Besides, I'm sure there is a limit on how many bursaries are available to smart kids from inauspicious backgrounds.
I'm sure some bright privately-educated 'working-class' spark will 'contradict' me here, but in my personal experience, the kids who tend to get bursaries or attend grammar schools (which were originally supposed to educate intelligent kids from working-class backgrounds) tend to be upper-middle-class chldren whose parents can't afford the full, exorbintant, fees for private schools, but *can* afford to pay for private tutors to coach them into passing entrance/11+ exams etc. Council housing estate kids, kids with few to no books at home, kids whose parents left school at 16, and so on, tend to get ignored by private/grammar schools, and such establishments certainly aren't on their parents' radars.
Mrs Brown’s boys, is one of the worst things I’ve watched.
I think the problem is...and am not sure how you legislate....is with employers believing that certain schools on a cv have the candidate at the top of the list.....when, apart from a nice accent and manners, it usually indicates a lack of real intelligence, they were 'poorly' educated, lack a work ethic, suitability, inability to accept responsibility, inability to lead, lack of honesty and a belief everything comes easy....therefore the last people you would put in nearly every role in nearly every sector. If the myth of the name/s on a cv is hacked down and it becomes the negative it should be in most cases, then let minted parents spaff their cash on these schools. At the moment, it isnt the education they are buying, it is the name on the cv..
O'Brien is a decent man although I don't agree with much of his opinions. Whatever about that, what mystifies me is, as someone who went to a prep school and THEN Ampleforth, he effects a "Mockney" accent. I went to two prep schools in the Cotswolds (where else?) and emerged after the requisite number of years sounding "posh". It can't be helped; it happens by osmosis. Does he feel listeners won't take him seriously if he sounds like what he really is, ie an English public schoolboy? Al Murray does the same thing- it's so transparent and phoney. If you really want to know how O'Brien should sound, TH-cam a terrific CH.4 documentary about Ampleforth from 2002 called My Teacher's a Monk. It's all there!
They just seem like psychopath factories
ye and public schools teaching kids that a boy can be a girl.
They kind of are. They institutionalise entitlement because no one around you is ever really less well off than any one else so you don't mix with the reality of society.
The I am OWED success and my voice is worth 10 thousand times yours. Many are taught the rest of the population are paper people.
Loving a pet is easy
Why does he always hide behind the Microphone?
Why cannot accept some children are less disciplined, less intelligent than others? In addition, education from parents > any school
Ok so how difficult is it for people who are immensely intelligent but are bogged down with a difficult life. So rather than having an education that gives them a goal that they aspire to they are concentrating on surviving. With the current factory march of education they would be one of these less disciplined people you refer to. So I would ask what sort of life have you had and why do you think that only certain people should be educated to push our country forward?
@@boo4677 I am from China, my parents had no education made the old England football team umbro shirt for 1pound per hour. They worked hard from that and accumulated wealth and send me to UK to study university. Since I was 7, I woke up at 6 in the morning and read English out loud for 20 mins everyday, studied for 12 hours a day maths, physic, biology, chemistry in class with more than 50 people for 10 years. I have never slept before midnight on weekdays since 10. Results? I graduated from Oxbridge engineering and got into finance. Cry about that.
@@tim2138 no that is incredibly hard work but my statement applies to your parents imagine what they would have achieved is their intelligence was recognised. You say they never went to school, but they recognised that to be able to progress you had to work exceptionally hard, harder in fact than anyone who’s parents were elevated by status. My parents left school before 16 in the UK. They moved to Spain when I was 14 I didn’t return to school for 15. Worked until I was 18 in Spain and then returned to the UK. I obtained qualifications to go to university to study Law, had 3 children with my abusive ex husband while at university. I finished my degree but due to the lack of support I didn’t go into law. I am currently working to get a nursing degree to get a career to provide for my children. The main reason for pushing on is to show my children that you never give up. I cannot put them in a private school and I do not agree with them but I am educating my children as to how the world works and the generational changes need to be thought of as steps. Each generation takes a step up. So I am working hard to allow them to not have this struggle. I do not think that private schools help society elevate itself because they do not have that exposure to struggle and hardship which gives a perspective on life.
@@tim2138what about the other 49?
He missed out the agnostic apathetics - don't know and don't care.
Sir I can just listen to you whole day 👍
2:04:50 Hoax-Watch
The Private school argument comes from the wrong side of the problem. Private schools and the obvious advantage of them is not the problem. The problem is the lack of advantage given to everyone else in state run schools. if you deny that advantage to everyone then all you will do is secure the advantage to only a certain number of people who are born to the correct family rather than restricting it to everyone.
It would be better to have a root and branch review of education as a whole and provide the same advantages and educational level to all people which would minimise the benefit of private school and allow more people to benefit from that double sized shopping trolley.
Discouraging education at private schools will only mean more work for people like me. Just today I had a parent sign their child up for private physics and maths tuition. Their comment was: "however many hours are needed, whatever books are needed, we will pay".
more blather from starmers sycophant, none of them will be satisfied until we're all as grey as they are
First ❤
🍪
A typical socialist view. He is happier to see poorer off children being less educated, as long as children of richer parents are also less educated.
Increase the cost of private schools. The really rich can still afford them, those on the edge move children to the public sector, which increases class sizes which impacts on their children and the other childrens education.
A classic example is the recent case of a mother who pulled herself out of private school ahead of the VAT implementation. The local authority didnt have any places in local schools, so is paying to send her child back to the same school they were in. Well done Labour (slow hand clap).
Typical neo-liberal view, defend the indefesable by pretending to care about the poor.
And yours is typical ignorant right wing view. 7% of school age children go to private schools, the percentage of children from that 7% whose parents won't be able to afford an increase in prices are a tiny fraction of those 7%. A completely irrelevant number of children that has no real grand impact on the state schools despite what the right wing claims. It is about as dumb as claiming the small boat crossings of 30-40k people a year, 30% who can get deported anyway, have any material impact on housing or the NHS. You also do not increase education standards across a country by allowing a very small percentage of wealthy children to get better education, you invest in all children's education so that more children can achieve and learn whatever their economic background, that in turn creates more educated people, more innovation, more well paid jobs, and thus more tax. The whole point is to take away the tax exemption so that the money can be funnelled into state schools to improve them.
Private education is a simple luxury, if you cannot afford it, tough luck. Earn more money or spend less on other stuff. The right wing keeps harping on ridiculously claiming that young people could afford houses if they spent less of coffee or netflix, despite the fact that house prices are around 6 to 7 times the median wage in this country, if not higher and the people making these dumb claims bought houses when that ratio was around 2 times or less the median wage. But it applies quite well here, an increase in VAT on private school fees, probably only equates to around £1-2k a year in many cases for people already paying around £10k a year or more in school fees, so don't buy a new car, cut down on your coffees and gym membership.
Also I thought right wingers were about market forces? If a business cannot be run sustainably without a tax exemption from the government then it is a pretty bad business and deserves to go under. Maybe the private schools should stop spending all their money and be run more efficiently then they wouldn't have to rise prices and would be able to pay for the VAT.
Rich people problem complaining about paying their fair share of tax, nothing more, nothing less.
But of course poor people don’t work hard or make sacrifices
Finland has the best education system in the world . Private education is illegal there . All the money is invested in maintaining high standards across the board for everyone
That's a backwards view of the issue. The point is to have a level standard of education and opportunity that isn't based on what school your parents were rich enough to pay for. Education should be completely level, not based on wealth.
….Cont’d……Oh CANNOT FORGET LEBANON!
Obrien says about remembering callers from years ago 🤔some stay in my mind too - like the giy in Newcastle who worked till 0300 in factory then walks dogs in the day or the guy of 50 odd who was atuck living in a van 😱🚛"People always Just want you to mové on" Then I tell myself however poor you are in the last week of the month- the poor sods on the other side of the property owning chasm are worse off 🏡🤔
Privilege is a luxury and should be taxed
I like that private schools are illegal in atleast one scandic country which forced the government to ensure everyone got that better education. We gotta stop copying America with these academy's and lean into the European models.