I never knew about these gas saver valves until I was actually taking a beginning blacksmithing course, and the instructor was showing us this video that I've never been able to find again of an older Smith doing demonstrations in his shop, much like you do. My instructor apparently had never found this remarkable, but while watching the video I saw the guy just pick up his cutting head, wave it seemingly randomly over the tops of his cylinders and , it was lit! And at the perfect mixture! I literally disrupted the whole class because I sat bolt upright, literally shocked, and blurted out "WAIT, WHAT THE HELL WAS THAT?" I confused the instructor so badly, he had to back the tape up. "It's like the torch just lit all by itself! What kind of sorcery is this?!" My instructor peered at it (everyone else was just mildly curious what the hell my problem was) and he just kind of nonchalantly said "Yeah... must be some kind of special valve. I don't know, I never noticed it before." A couple of days later I was describing it to a friend of mine also in the welding industry, and he just casually said "Oh yeah, a Smith Gas Saver. Those are pretty neat. Probably got one at the shop if you want to see it." Mind. Blown. You just don't know what you don't know.
I get what you’re saying, the first time I saw one was on this channel, that’s been a few years ago. He showed what he was using, probably from all the replies he got from using that valve. Pretty neat setup.
"What if it falls off?" Lady, if it falls off a hook thats designed to hold it, you got more to worry about with the major earthquake damage than any fire that could start from the torch falling down.
That small torch you have is used by us jewelers and have been for many decades. We call it the big torch. That’s because when they came out with the small grey and black one the company named it the little torch.
I have an oxy-mapp gas set up with a small tip torch. It uses the small tanks, like for a straight mapp or propane torch. I do minimal work with it, but it heats up well and the small tip is precise. If I could set it up with large tanks I would. The heat is between propane and acetylene.
FWIW, I have used an oxy-propane setup on a gas saver for 18 years, with no problems; it sips gas and oxygen use is acceptable. I use a #2 curting tip instead of a rosebud, rhe preheats are sufficient for most local heating, like setting rivets and most tenons and doing handle-length twists in up to 5/8 stock... thanks for the video, John!
I agree with you John. I added oxy-propane capability a couple years ago. In theory it saves money on gas. (That may be true if one is burning large quantities.) But with the cost of all the new things to buy (finding tips was a challenge), increased oxygen consumption (not cheap either), slower heating and lower temp, etc., it's often not a win over oxy-acetylene. But there is another way I leverage the oxy-propane. For me, the oxy and acetylene tanks are never running out together. Swapping tanks is a bit of a logistical challenge in my situation, and I really don't want to deal with swapping one tank out of sequence with the other, or forfeiting part of a tank of gas to swap at the same time. Being able to switch to running propane when the acetylene runs out helps get me to the end of that oxy cylinder (depending on the project need of course). It's also handy to have the option as a backup. If you run out of acetylene in the middle of a project -- on a weekend of course when all the welding shops are closed -- you can switch over to a standard BBQ propane cylinder and keep working. Once you have made the initial investment in the propane equipment/tips, it is nice to have that option available -- even if I don't normally run oxy-propane by choice.
Delightful video as always John! Regarding welding/brazing with oxy-propane, I went down this road. You are right, there does not exist a welding tip made for oxy-propane, and running it through the acetylene tip is a special exercise in frustration.... There is a product on the market that my local welding gas supplier gave me to try called "Chemtane-2". As I understand it, it's propane with extra herbs and spices, additionally it's compatible with all your existing propane regulators. I can confirm that I was indeed able to run it through the acetylene brazing tip on my torch and do some brazing whereas I was not able to just with propane. Just figured I'd mention it if you or a viewer were interested. Thanks again John!
John, that Henrob (sp?) acetylene torch with a pistol grip looks like the torches I used to see advertised in "Street Rodder" magazine. One of my parents' neighbors was a "Street Rodder" and bought one and it came with a videotape showing its use. The guru demonstrating its use welded aluminum soda cans to each other without blowing holes through the cans. He then did the same with the kind of pop-tops that used to come off of the cans. The advertised use (aimed at Street Rodder readers) was for welding relatively thin sheet metal as used in autos, without blowing holes in the sheet.
So, as a fellow person looking into figuring out a good setup for your shop.. which did you choose? I’m about 3/4 through the video and haven’t decided yet..
@@Ian_S I started with acetylene, if you’re not welding/brazing, propane. It’s cheaper, and less volatile. The biggest things with acetylene is you can’t lay the cylinder down and it is far more volatile than propane.
From what little metalwork I was taught eons ago the old men working with sheet steel at the time preferred acetylene. Coating the surface with pure acetylene soot while preheating, would turn on the oxygen to get a hotter flame and when the soot began burning off, the metal was at exactly the right temperature every time. It's a skill I wish I'd been serious about picking up from them
I use propane on a rosebud for heating because I already have propane, but the electric welder and plasma for cutting and welding. The propane tank last me about a year and have to fill the oxygen about 3 times in a year.
Hey John great video! I just dropped my torch yesterday while hanging it up and...... nothing happened. I just picked it up and looked over my shoulder to make sure nobody saw.😅 I feel safe with the gas saver.I made the switch to propane. 👌
Victor, Harris and Gentec have separate torch mixers for propane. Propane tips are the same as acetylene tips except propane tips have a counterbore or recess at the tip. The counterbore prevents the propane flame from blowing off. With propane tips so hard to find and more expensive, have you tried counterboring an acetylene tip for propane? Or adding a ¼” long sleeve on the end of an acetylene tip? Pictures of the Harris 1390-N tips show how they are counterbored.
I have worked "around" oxy/ace torches during my entire career of heavy construction management. I was never a torch operator but cut a few pilings and other things just to experience using a torch. All the torches were industrial and quite heavy duty. I rarely lit a torch personally, and I have never understood how to adjust it to perform well, even though the welder showed me the correct cutting flame after he lit it. The valve adjustment has always confused me, and your video clarified at least some of my age-old questions. Not valve adjustments, but just torch options. Thanks.
Someday I may get myself a torch, I use my 3 in one welder/plasma cutter for thicker steel I need to cut, but 95% of the time I use my hacksaw or grinder. However I do try to hot or cold cut whatever I can now. Most of the clients I have go for that rustic look. I am working on some barn door hinges at the moment, a torch sure world come in handy for them as the hinges are almost 2 feet!!
There is poor mans solution.I built 1" burner from the book by michael porter -burners for forges and kilns.Its a venturi burner ,but its highly adjustable and heat output is insane when you fine tune it and if you use 2 firebricks and put material on it .He goes into detail with materials and procedures to make it.Its completely different than anything on youtube. On my channel you have video about it i made some modifications to manufacturing process but dimensions are the same. Its not perfect as acetilene but so far it did not fail me in any task i had for it.
I'm new to your channel love your information. Going to be setting up my very first black smith shop have no experience and a very small budget. Your a big help. Long winters up hear in northern Maine need Sumthing to keep me occupied thinking blacksmithing will be a fun challenge.
I have both propane and Acetylene in my shop. The only time i connect the Acetylene is for gas welding. Most of my heating is propane/air. Oxy/propane is good for some silver soldering or brazing.
The only thing Acetylene can do that propane can't is steel weld, I prefer to drag out the tig for steel welding so i only have Propane... LPG no bottle hire and can hook it up to the bbq. I must admit acetylene is like butter and propane is like margarine
Wow you read my mind i was watchin one of your previous videos couple days ago and was thinking man i would like to see his setup that he is using and bam here is the video lol thanks for the info sir
Want to thank you for posting this. As I am just getting started in my new blacksmithing hobby, I was debating on getting a torch. Since I use a propane fired forge, an oxy propane torch seems like all I’ll ever need. Thanks again!
John I was checking to see if you have forged a spear on you tube couldn't find one , I check your channel first when I need some inspiration I see lots of them so I have something to get me started thanks for your excellent content , you basically got me started forging
Years ago, I started using MAPP gas. As it became less available and cost much more, I started using propylene. It costs way less than acetylene and is far safer for storage and transport. The tanks are far lighter and less costly. My big rosebud cannot be used with acetylene even with manifolded tanks. My hoses, regulators, and tanks were recently lost in a major wildland fire, so I have to replace them. I used standard off-the-shelf regulators and hose for fifty years and that is what I'll get for replacements. Frankly, the propane hose didn't last that long. Generally, the propane/propylene cutting tips are two piece making them cost more. I get better flame cuts with propylene than with acetylene. Just my two cents.
great stuff , for me I think the propane is probably eaisier to get but maybe it works out the same overall because I would have to drive to get the oxygen and acetylene refill if I go down that route..the propane is about a fifth of the cost of Acetylene probably works out the same in time lost seeing as I have to drive ...I have the kit already just no gas at present....decisions decisions
Over here in the UK the risks, regulations and response from the fire service of oxy-acetylene being involved in workshop fires and licencing is what puts most people off the acetylene, but it is still far superior to the propane.
I've just got myself an LPG / Compressed air torch. I have not tried it out as yet, but the local blacksmith supplier here in Australia has started selling them again (They were available 20 odd years ago, but went out of production), and by all accounts they work well for heating or brazing / soldering. It is not capable of cutting with the configuration of the torch.
I have seen several videos where jewelers are using an oxygen concentrator instead of a tank of oxygen. Would you think that provides enough oxygen for one of these torches, or would it just not have enough supply.
Thanks John, I have an acetylene setup and have considered shifting to propane. I will not. I don't use the torch often enough to justify the addition. The downside to this is my local supply companies have decided incorporating a degree of larceny into their pricing is the thing to do. One supplier, well known in the region, insists on an automatic Hazmat charge on every single purchase, whether it be gloves, discs for grinders, marking pens, everything. It is the BS of the corporate mentality.
Do you want the option to weld or not? That's the only deciding factor in picking fuel for me. It has to do with the chemistry of acetylene, has nothing to do with the negligible heat difference.
@lumotroph A quick search says: "When acetylene burns in oxygen, it creates a reducing zone that cleans the steel surface. Propane does not have a reducing zone like acetylene and hence cannot be used for welding."
So here's a million dollar question: if you buy a forge kit meant for propane use but want to modify it for oxy- acetiline, what would you need to do for the conversion process? Further, how could you modify it so it would be interchangable for both systems should you need to use one over the other given acailability in an area?
Oh man, the proverbial "what if inanimate object... ANIMATES!" Well buddy, then you either just went through an earthquake, or else confirmed you're being haunted by ghosts who disapprove of your welds and want you to stop.
Steel would require welding. For brazing and soldering you don't need to bring the parent material up to a melting point, you're just melting the filler (brass). Welding requires the parent material to melt and fuse with each other as well as the filler rod.
I personally won’t buy any torch that isn’t a victor or maybe a smith you buy those cheap knockoff ones when you need replacement parts good luck finding parts most likely you will have buy another torch.
Propane sucks! Just my two cents.most folks use too much volume with oxy acetylene, becausse of dirty, or too big tips. Torchh should cut almost as clean as plasma
I never knew about these gas saver valves until I was actually taking a beginning blacksmithing course, and the instructor was showing us this video that I've never been able to find again of an older Smith doing demonstrations in his shop, much like you do. My instructor apparently had never found this remarkable, but while watching the video I saw the guy just pick up his cutting head, wave it seemingly randomly over the tops of his cylinders and , it was lit! And at the perfect mixture! I literally disrupted the whole class because I sat bolt upright, literally shocked, and blurted out "WAIT, WHAT THE HELL WAS THAT?" I confused the instructor so badly, he had to back the tape up. "It's like the torch just lit all by itself! What kind of sorcery is this?!" My instructor peered at it (everyone else was just mildly curious what the hell my problem was) and he just kind of nonchalantly said "Yeah... must be some kind of special valve. I don't know, I never noticed it before."
A couple of days later I was describing it to a friend of mine also in the welding industry, and he just casually said "Oh yeah, a Smith Gas Saver. Those are pretty neat. Probably got one at the shop if you want to see it."
Mind. Blown. You just don't know what you don't know.
I get what you’re saying, the first time I saw one was on this channel, that’s been a few years ago. He showed what he was using, probably from all the replies he got from using that valve. Pretty neat setup.
"What if it falls off?" Lady, if it falls off a hook thats designed to hold it, you got more to worry about with the major earthquake damage than any fire that could start from the torch falling down.
That small torch you have is used by us jewelers and have been for many decades. We call it the big torch. That’s because when they came out with the small grey and black one the company named it the little torch.
I have an oxy-mapp gas set up with a small tip torch. It uses the small tanks, like for a straight mapp or propane torch. I do minimal work with it, but it heats up well and the small tip is precise. If I could set it up with large tanks I would. The heat is between propane and acetylene.
FWIW, I have used an oxy-propane setup on a gas saver for 18 years, with no problems; it sips gas and oxygen use is acceptable. I use a #2 curting tip instead of a rosebud, rhe preheats are sufficient for most local heating, like setting rivets and most tenons and doing handle-length twists in up to 5/8 stock... thanks for the video, John!
Propane for the forge, and heating & cutting. Acetylene for welding. Proper regulators for each gas.
I agree with you John. I added oxy-propane capability a couple years ago. In theory it saves money on gas. (That may be true if one is burning large quantities.) But with the cost of all the new things to buy (finding tips was a challenge), increased oxygen consumption (not cheap either), slower heating and lower temp, etc., it's often not a win over oxy-acetylene.
But there is another way I leverage the oxy-propane. For me, the oxy and acetylene tanks are never running out together. Swapping tanks is a bit of a logistical challenge in my situation, and I really don't want to deal with swapping one tank out of sequence with the other, or forfeiting part of a tank of gas to swap at the same time. Being able to switch to running propane when the acetylene runs out helps get me to the end of that oxy cylinder (depending on the project need of course). It's also handy to have the option as a backup. If you run out of acetylene in the middle of a project -- on a weekend of course when all the welding shops are closed -- you can switch over to a standard BBQ propane cylinder and keep working. Once you have made the initial investment in the propane equipment/tips, it is nice to have that option available -- even if I don't normally run oxy-propane by choice.
Some excellent observations
Delightful video as always John! Regarding welding/brazing with oxy-propane, I went down this road. You are right, there does not exist a welding tip made for oxy-propane, and running it through the acetylene tip is a special exercise in frustration....
There is a product on the market that my local welding gas supplier gave me to try called "Chemtane-2". As I understand it, it's propane with extra herbs and spices, additionally it's compatible with all your existing propane regulators. I can confirm that I was indeed able to run it through the acetylene brazing tip on my torch and do some brazing whereas I was not able to just with propane.
Just figured I'd mention it if you or a viewer were interested. Thanks again John!
I bought a whole propane welding kit they are available and each manufacturer has one
Did you you stay with Chemtane-2? How much is Chemtane-2 and propane at you store?
John, that Henrob (sp?) acetylene torch with a pistol grip looks like the torches I used to see advertised in "Street Rodder" magazine. One of my parents' neighbors was a "Street Rodder" and bought one and it came with a videotape showing its use. The guru demonstrating its use welded aluminum soda cans to each other without blowing holes through the cans. He then did the same with the kind of pop-tops that used to come off of the cans. The advertised use (aimed at Street Rodder readers) was for welding relatively thin sheet metal as used in autos, without blowing holes in the sheet.
"Fear and common sense" applies. Nuff said! Thank you for what you do.
I’ve been dithering about which to choose. Your video provided the vital information I need. I have a clear course. Thank you.
So, as a fellow person looking into figuring out a good setup for your shop.. which did you choose? I’m about 3/4 through the video and haven’t decided yet..
Just got to the rest of the video, your choice is obvious now! ;-)
@@Ian_S I started with acetylene, if you’re not welding/brazing, propane. It’s cheaper, and less volatile. The biggest things with acetylene is you can’t lay the cylinder down and it is far more volatile than propane.
First time I ever ran into propane torch was about 25 years ago on a Grateful Dead lot. A kid was using it to blow glass.
From what little metalwork I was taught eons ago the old men working with sheet steel at the time preferred acetylene. Coating the surface with pure acetylene soot while preheating, would turn on the oxygen to get a hotter flame and when the soot began burning off, the metal was at exactly the right temperature every time. It's a skill I wish I'd been serious about picking up from them
I use propane on a rosebud for heating because I already have propane, but the electric welder and plasma for cutting and welding. The propane tank last me about a year and have to fill the oxygen about 3 times in a year.
Dude, that deal Is brilliant!
Lots of good information from an experienced smith. Well explained and to the point.
Hey John great video! I just dropped my torch yesterday while hanging it up and...... nothing happened. I just picked it up and looked over my shoulder to make sure nobody saw.😅 I feel safe with the gas saver.I made the switch to propane. 👌
One of the most versatile and valuable tools to have and use .. Thanks for sharing
Victor, Harris and Gentec have separate torch mixers for propane. Propane tips are the same as acetylene tips except propane tips have a counterbore or recess at the tip. The counterbore prevents the propane flame from blowing off. With propane tips so hard to find and more expensive, have you tried counterboring an acetylene tip for propane? Or adding a ¼” long sleeve on the end of an acetylene tip? Pictures of the Harris 1390-N tips show how they are counterbored.
I have worked "around" oxy/ace torches during my entire career of heavy construction management. I was never a torch operator but cut a few pilings and other things just to experience using a torch. All the torches were industrial and quite heavy duty. I rarely lit a torch personally, and I have never understood how to adjust it to perform well, even though the welder showed me the correct cutting flame after he lit it. The valve adjustment has always confused me, and your video clarified at least some of my age-old questions. Not valve adjustments, but just torch options. Thanks.
8:30
I cut railroad tracks with a small acetylene cutting torch with oxypropane.
No problem
Using a propane regulator
J
The Netherlands
Someday I may get myself a torch, I use my 3 in one welder/plasma cutter for thicker steel I need to cut, but 95% of the time I use my hacksaw or grinder. However I do try to hot or cold cut whatever I can now. Most of the clients I have go for that rustic look. I am working on some barn door hinges at the moment, a torch sure world come in handy for them as the hinges are almost 2 feet!!
A torch is pretty handy to have available.
There is poor mans solution.I built 1" burner from the book by michael porter -burners for forges and kilns.Its a venturi burner ,but its highly adjustable and heat output is insane when you fine tune it and if you use 2 firebricks and put material on it .He goes into detail with materials and procedures to make it.Its completely different than anything on youtube.
On my channel you have video about it i made some modifications to manufacturing process but dimensions are the same.
Its not perfect as acetilene but so far it did not fail me in any task i had for it.
I'm new to your channel love your information. Going to be setting up my very first black smith shop have no experience and a very small budget. Your a big help. Long winters up hear in northern Maine need Sumthing to keep me occupied thinking blacksmithing will be a fun challenge.
Have fun, there are lots of possibilities to explore.
I have both propane and Acetylene in my shop. The only time i connect the Acetylene is for gas welding. Most of my heating is propane/air. Oxy/propane is good for some silver soldering or brazing.
The only thing Acetylene can do that propane can't is steel weld, I prefer to drag out the tig for steel welding so i only have Propane... LPG no bottle hire and can hook it up to the bbq. I must admit acetylene is like butter and propane is like margarine
Wow you read my mind i was watchin one of your previous videos couple days ago and was thinking man i would like to see his setup that he is using and bam here is the video lol thanks for the info sir
Propane burns cooler, but also cleaner - no soot to dirty up your work. (Obviously a bigger problem when using a brushy, reducing flame.)
Want to thank you for posting this. As I am just getting started in my new blacksmithing hobby, I was debating on getting a torch. Since I use a propane fired forge, an oxy propane torch seems like all I’ll ever need. Thanks again!
Good info and presentation as usual John , Thank you.
Thanks for the great information John, enjoyed seeing just how that set up works. Stay safe and keep up the great videos. Fred.
Great info, been kicking around the propane idea for some time, I think you just made up my mind. Thanks
John I was checking to see if you have forged a spear on you tube couldn't find one , I check your channel first when I need some inspiration I see lots of them so I have something to get me started thanks for your excellent content , you basically got me started forging
No, that isn't something I have done a video on.
I like it! Thanks for the video. I’ve been wondering about it.
Always loved your torch setup, thanks for walking us through it!
Years ago, I started using MAPP gas. As it became less available and cost much more, I started using propylene. It costs way less than acetylene and is far safer for storage and transport. The tanks are far lighter and less costly. My big rosebud cannot be used with acetylene even with manifolded tanks. My hoses, regulators, and tanks were recently lost in a major wildland fire, so I have to replace them. I used standard off-the-shelf regulators and hose for fifty years and that is what I'll get for replacements. Frankly, the propane hose didn't last that long. Generally, the propane/propylene cutting tips are two piece making them cost more. I get better flame cuts with propylene than with acetylene. Just my two cents.
Great information
Great job. Thank you 😊
Good Info, Thanks, John!
Ive only used ocy acetylene that's what I learned to cut with
great stuff , for me I think the propane is probably eaisier to get but maybe it works out the same overall because I would have to drive to get the oxygen and acetylene refill if I go down that route..the propane is about a fifth of the cost of Acetylene probably works out the same in time lost seeing as I have to drive ...I have the kit already just no gas at present....decisions decisions
Been waiting for this video for quite a while many thanks ( guess I m buying more stuff soon 😅
I’m only a young teen and like to use a oxy acetylene more it is super fun
Another great video 👍👍
Glad you enjoyed it
Over here in the UK the risks, regulations and response from the fire service of oxy-acetylene being involved in workshop fires and licencing is what puts most people off the acetylene, but it is still far superior to the propane.
I've just got myself an LPG / Compressed air torch. I have not tried it out as yet, but the local blacksmith supplier here in Australia has started selling them again (They were available 20 odd years ago, but went out of production), and by all accounts they work well for heating or brazing / soldering. It is not capable of cutting with the configuration of the torch.
You're the second person to mention compressed air. I had not heard of it before.
All the scrap yards I've been to run propane torches
I have seen several videos where jewelers are using an oxygen concentrator instead of a tank of oxygen. Would you think that provides enough oxygen for one of these torches, or would it just not have enough supply.
Thanks John, I have an acetylene setup and have considered shifting to propane. I will not. I don't use the torch often enough to justify the addition. The downside to this is my local supply companies have decided incorporating a degree of larceny into their pricing is the thing to do. One supplier, well known in the region, insists on an automatic Hazmat charge on every single purchase, whether it be gloves, discs for grinders, marking pens, everything. It is the BS of the corporate mentality.
I have my gas saver from way back when I first saw you use one.
Hey brother just watched you 500 budget kit and was wondering if you plan to do a say 1000 or so kit.
I'll give the idea some thought
Do you want the option to weld or not? That's the only deciding factor in picking fuel for me.
It has to do with the chemistry of acetylene, has nothing to do with the negligible heat difference.
Oh? Say more? I thought it was the heat
@lumotroph A quick search says: "When acetylene burns in oxygen, it creates a reducing zone that cleans the steel surface. Propane does not have a reducing zone like acetylene and hence cannot be used for welding."
So here's a million dollar question: if you buy a forge kit meant for propane use but want to modify it for oxy- acetiline, what would you need to do for the conversion process? Further, how could you modify it so it would be interchangable for both systems should you need to use one over the other given acailability in an area?
Does the gas saver valve turn off the oxygen also because it runs out way quicker than the acetylene?
Yes, it shuts off the flow of both gasses to the torch
Oh man, the proverbial "what if inanimate object... ANIMATES!" Well buddy, then you either just went through an earthquake, or else confirmed you're being haunted by ghosts who disapprove of your welds and want you to stop.
I love my gas saver!!🙃
Question: if you use a steel rod instead of brass, is it still called brazing? Or is it just torch welding?
Steel would require welding. For brazing and soldering you don't need to bring the parent material up to a melting point, you're just melting the filler (brass). Welding requires the parent material to melt and fuse with each other as well as the filler rod.
Acetylene rules.
I need to buy a torch. I'm using a hacksaw and some elbow grease. Just need to get other stuff that I think is a little more important first
Sounds like a wash all in all. I will stick to acetylene. Thanks John
Awesome how you said you should maybe get better employees. Im sorry but some people are to careless to work in certain situations.
Acetylene all day
👍✌️⚒️
I personally won’t buy any torch that isn’t a victor or maybe a smith you buy those cheap knockoff ones when you need replacement parts good luck finding parts most likely you will have buy another torch.
Propane sucks! Just my two cents.most folks use too much volume with oxy acetylene, becausse of dirty, or too big tips. Torchh should cut almost as clean as plasma