I believe You're called to lead us on this subject during these times. There's no one out there doing what you do. I'm praying for you, John McArthur and a few others who are closely following the Lord. 🙏🏼Please continue to do so.
Thank you so much. I have admired and listened to Keller for years now. In my search for a deeper love of Christ I have learned to dig deeper into those that have reached the heights that Keller has. I am amazed at how personal views, not biblical, are quietly inserted into their preaching. This has taught me to examine even the most admired much closer and discern always checking their teachings to the Bible. Thank you.
Only about 30 minutes in, but I don't understand why this is a debate among Christians. Yes, we are to to practice charity. Yes, all we have does come, ultimately, from God. But that is different than saying strangers have a moral or legal claim to your ethically acquired money or possessions. (Even to the point of taking it by force or having the gov't take it from you by force.) They have no such moral claim. How do I know that? Because God has commandments against both stealing and coveting. See how simple and clear that is? I expect the world to be confused on this. But not Christians.
Biblical illiteracy in the Western world is at its highest point ever since the Protestant Reformation, certainly its highest ever in the U.S., and Marxist redefinitions of justice have supplanted the Biblical understandings discussed by the Church for the past 2,000 years. Marxist definitions of justice, etc. have replaced Biblical ones. And if you buy their narrative of economics as a zero sum game, why wouldn't you fall for the Social Justice Gospel, if only on an emotional level? It's obviously impracticable and illogical when followed out to its logical conclusions, but if you've been taught that everything you have was basically stolen from someone else through slavery, white privilege, systemic oppression, generational inequities in inheritance, etc., why would you question the idea of the government making restitution of the stolen property? Obviously, this is all nonsense and impossible to calculate (How much of what I have was stolen and how much wasn't? Do African nations that succeeded the slaver kingdoms who engaged in the slave trade owe reparations? Does Scandinavia owe the Slavs reparations for the Viking conquest of is now Russia and the enslavement of the locals there? Etc., etc), but they aren't appealing to *reason* they're appealing to *emotion*
Yeah. Another problem with the idea of giving to the poor as justice rather than mercy is the fact that poverty comes of many causes. Much poverty comes of societal problems, but poverty can also come about through bad habits, such as drug use and money mismanagement. While the "giving as justice" argument makes sense in the case of people poor through no fault of their own, it doesn't make sense in the case of people whose own foolishness makes them poor. But I believe God's grace should open our hands to poor people whatever the cause of their poverty. It is true that the way you help someone poor through foolishness will be different from the way you help someone poor due to injustice, but both need help.
exactly! I think the majority of Christians know this, but some people are being confused. Even in my own church, which I consider to be very good, I sometimes hear questionable teaching from the pulpit. We are all being forced to pay attention to details, as we should.
This is the new legalism..."social justice legalism" is almost the christian version of cancel culture. Thanks Jon - well articulated and spoken with kindness. I appreciate your presentation and tone.
Jon if God wants you to keep doing these video’s I will be so happy. I am learning a lot from you and your channel is one of my favorites. I wait every week to hear from you!
"And many false prophets shall arise and shall deceive many. And becuase iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure to the end shall be saved". (Mat.24:11-13).
Leftists really pick some real “winners” for their heroes like Marx himself, Che Guevara, Hugo Chávez, Nicolás Maduro, Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, Vladimir Lenin, Michael Brown, George Floyd, Jacob Blake, and numerous others that bear no resemblance to true heroes, but they’re all they have to emulate.
Every single NT reference to Christian giving involves ONLY Christians. There is NO call for Christians to give to unbelievers. Further, all Christian giving is under grace, not obligation.
@NegativeThoughts hi! Thanks for your comment. I specifically referred to the Church, which is His Body; that is, Christian giving, as opposed to pre-Cross giving. I studied this intently in preparation for writing the chapter on giving in my book on Pauline doctrine. I understand that God gives "common grace," but His instructions to the Church are narrowly focused.
@NegativeThoughts The Good Samaritan is a parable and not an example to follow. The point of the parable is that we CANNOT follow that example. It's impossible. For one to do so it would require giving everything, every day, to every person one encounters.
@@lkae4 yes, the world thinks that the gospel is stupid! 1 Corinthians 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
@@theprofitdare3704 You have said about the Good Samaritan passage,"that it cannot be followed" ! I would respectfully say read the passage! Jesus is that recapitulating teaching from torah to love your neighbor as yourself! The pharisees were the audience! Jesus is expressing this to them to condemn their behavior, and put forthrightly the behavior of a child of God! Most historical theological teaching would agree with this! Even if we do it imperfectly! Thanks!
@@scottbaldridge6148 kind of the point, Scott. The original question was "what must be done to inherit eternal life." So keep the entire text in context. Imperfection of any manner is insufficient to garner access to heaven. Loving our neighbors is an outworking of our salvation not what causes it. The point was that we cannot perfectly folllow these two commands. Our salvation is never a rsesult of good works. Even when our works are admirable they are still rooted and grounded in pride, arrogance and self righteousness.. Selah
Tim Keller has prevaricated on several issues. Now I can see why. Is he ambivalent about biblical Christianity or is he justifying his Marxian views with Christianity?
I disagree with Keller. Talking about oppression and justice does not make one a student of the Bible (or a disciple of Jesus), it can merely mean that one is a highly intelligent opportunist using the pain of others to build a new empire.
Why do the "poor" not have an obligation to give of the bounty of their idle time to time-strapped me by mowing my lawn without expectation of anything in return? They have a resource I do not. Indeed, the funds for the tax-funded social services they enjoy that help make their idle time possible were taken, by force, from my pocket. So, I actually have a moral claim on their time. Time is money, but only my money, but not their time, appears to be subject to the whims of "social justice." Why is that?
Sounds like Tim Keller does not read his bible. God specifically does not like people giving out of obligation, he wants you give freely: 2 Corinthians 9:7 (NASB) Each one must do just as he has purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.
Keller is a theistic evolutionist. It fascinates me that he constantly talks about “image bearers”. He really does talk about this a lot when it comes to socialist justice and making a person feel guilty about how they treat their neighbor, but he seems confused as to what exactly it means to bear the image of God, and more importantly have been created bearing that image and likeness.
Just what I was thinking, thank you...I saw a video, Dinesh D'Sousa, a young guy saying that we should give poor people our homes, out cars, our clothes...Dinesh asked him what of his possessions he had given away, as a true test of your values is if you actually do what you say...crickets, then deflecting, denying...
Jon, Keller’s lack of direct engagement with your position is an involuntary admission that he can’t rebut your Biblical arguments on socioeconomic issues. Keep it up, brother 🙏🏻
“Marx could not have kept a roof over his family’s head if not for his top sap and sugar-daddy, Friedrich Engels. Engels subsidized Marx and his family throughout his life. He did so courtesy of his inheritance from his wealthy capitalist father. "Marx drained his own parents’ inheritance. They finally had to cut him off. Marx refused to work, let alone bathe or groom himself. Both his mother and wife expressed the wish that “Karl would earn some capital rather than just write about capital.” His wife constantly went begging for money to relatives and whoever else because Marx wouldn’t earn any. Marx said that a day didn’t go by that his wife didn’t wish she were in her grave with the children - “such is her misery.” “Part of that misery came from Marx cheating on his wife with the family nursemaid. She was a young girl named Lenchen, whom Marx impregnated behind his wife’s back. Marx refused to pay Lenchen a penny - she lived with the family as effectively an indentured servant. He also refused to acknowledge that the child was his, or pay a penny of child support. Engels came to the rescue again, claiming paternity and financial responsibility for the child in order to save Marx’s marriage and reputation. Engels himself didn’t give a whit for marriage (he didn’t believe in the institution) nor for his own reputation. The child was named Freddy, after Friedrich Engels. “Marx said that ‘Communism begins where atheism begins.’ Marx declared religion ‘the opium of the people.’ He said that “the criticism of religion is the beginning of all criticism.” Marx in a letter to Arnold Ruge called for the ‘ruthless criticism of all that exists.’ “Marx had a favorite quote from Goethe’s Faust, ‘Everything that exists deserves to perish.’ Guess who said that? Answer: Mephistopheles, the demon/devil character. “Beyond ruthless and relentless criticism, there was ruthless and relentless abolition. The word ‘abolition’ is omnipresent throughout Marx’s writings. As Robert Payne noted, the word almost seems to jump off every page of the Manifesto: “And after he has ‘abolished’ property, family, and nations, and all existing societies, Marx shows little interest in creating a new society on the ruins of the old. … He had written in a poem to Jenny [his wife] that he would throw a gauntlet at the world, and watch it crumble. Comforted by her love, he would wander through the kingdom of ruins, his words glowing with action, his heart like the heart of God. The Communist Manifesto was the gauntlet he threw at the world. “It was indeed. Marx wanted to burn down the house.”
It seems that Keller is way too focused on social engineering with the goal of achieving a better world. We know utopia is unrealistic in a fallen world where Satan is the prince of the power of the air. The only Biblical approach to lasting change in the human heart is regeneration through the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Yes caring for the poor is a constant concern, but Jesus said the poor we would always have in this life. The true work of the Church is clearly Gospel ministry and edifying the believer. It seems the change we should want mostly comes with the salvation of one heart at a time. (I’m sure you know all this. I just needed to say it. )
@@jerryabernathy3585 Psalm 139:13 For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother's womb. And many other verses that we are God’s intentional creation. Killing a baby at any stage is shedding of innocent blood, murder. There is no biblically viable excuse for abortion except for selfish and evil reasons. If you truly are a Follower of Christ, study the Word and you will know it to be true. Be blessed
No, Keller isn't a Marxist. Neither is he a cultural Marxist, although labels such as that are quite popular within uber-conservative Christian circles. His views of justice for the city chafe against , but he's not a sham pastor. Save that for the TD Jakes, Paula White Cains, and the ilk of truly false preachers. The last paragraph of this piece is a reminder of how we need to think before labeling others: www.whitehorseinn.org/2018/10/the-mod-is-tim-keller-a-marxist/
@@AskMsDel Admittedly - I don't know Tim Keller. I was commenting based on John's reading of the audio book. There is an expression I'm sure you're aware of - if it looks, swims and acts like a duck - it is a duck. True that labeling can have the nature of not painting the whole picture, and can sometimes, unfortunately, be hurtful. But, that is generally recognized - and we take that into consideration in our final analyses. But in order to make some semblance of sense in this world - it is helpful, when I'm buying a can that is 'labelled' 'corn', that there is predominantly corn in there. One time I found a lone carrot hidden in a can of corn. Shocking - right? :) Anyway, whatever it is, based on my learning of today, I will keep a keen eye on Tim Keller. BTW - I agree with you on your labeling (I'm sure you thought before doing that) of Paula White and TD Jakes (2 peas in a pod, to continue the vegetable metaphor). I would also 'label' them as 'prosperity preachers' - which is designating with even greater specificity what type of the more general peas or corn I'm getting - creamed, with pimento, split, dried, sweet, etc. May the Lord continue to bless us with growing discernment as we walk this boggy road...
Jon, have you written a book on this or is it only in audio book format? Your research has taken the wind out of me. How do we navigate these waters? Many of us have looked-up to these men: Tim Keller, Mark Dever, Al Mohler, John Piper, etc...and have embraced 1 Cor. 3 to see this as a good movement (For all things are yours, 22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future-all are yours, 23 and you are Christ's, and Christ is God's.), perhaps even a new Reformation for the Doctrines of Grace. I had seen these men as a united Evangelical Reformed front, arms locked, and "Together for the Gospel." My discernment has not been politically keen and so all of this is startling, an upheaval of sorts. I am bewildered that none of these men are standing up with their friend John MacArthur. What kind of fissure are we witnessing? Are these alliances, which many of us have found strength in (maybe more so than God Himself), crumbling? Has the culture of the Academic Left oozed its way into the mortar of our Evangelical alliances and organizations? Have we depended upon these alliances and "ministries" for too much of our strength and are we witnessing a call back to a solitary trust in God alone and a simple dedication to our local churches? This reminds me of Martin Lloyd Jones, as he stood virtually alone against sprawling liberalism into many of the evangelical alliances in England.
Thank you so much Jon. What a service you have done for the body of Christ, using your gifts of research and critical thinking combined with a knowledge of the Bible. I'm so glad I wasn't the only one who couldn't figure out what Keller was saying on Twitter. It didn't make much sense. I appreciate your humility and know that where God guides, He provides. If he brings more and more people to your "classroom" He will give you the grace to handle it. We need leaders, like you, who are unafraid to take on even the biggest of the bigwigs on behalf of truth.
I agree with Keller on this one. Keller has not said it is immoral to be rich or to have more than others. I have actually heard him say that being rich is not a sin. In fact when you look throughout scripture there are numerous, godly, rich people. Keller has never said, having more than others is sinful. Keller has said that if you do happen to be wealthy, it is sinful is to abdicate your responsibility to give to the poor. Giving to the poor is not an optional thing, if you find it in your heart, you can do it if you choose. It is in the realm of moral obligation. If I fail to give to the poor, I am sinning before God. It is a recognition that all that I have is from God. And he has given it to me not just so that I can enjoy it myself, but so I can share with others. The judgment of God between the sheep and the goats in the Bible is based on how Christians treated the poor. You can say, "I have never stolen from anyone." But if you have refused to tithe (which God calls steeling in Malachi) or give to the poor, you have committed just as heinous a sin.
The source of contention is that Keller wrote one of the points of justice is the poor have a claim to the rich's property. That is not true. No one has a claim to what is given voluntarily as a gift. That would be like saying fallen man has a claim to God's forgiveness.
Keller's view is even more problematic when you take into account his advocacy for intergenerational race guilt and acceptance of the systemic racism canard.
"The Poor" is use like the Race card to trump everyone & everything. The secular left is wanting Christians to conflate secular society with a utopian Biblical order and commandments of religious righteousness/justice. YET for anyone with RIGHT leaning secular views to do this is anathema/verboten !fundamentalism! ONLY if you are solidly unquestioning, uncritically, committed to the POWER MOVEMENT of the secular left are you on the holy rolling love-boat. We cannot be stupid about what they are doing and where it's headed. You are picking out the LEFT's few repeated condemnatory Bible verses, the left academy's books of tendentious Marxist framing, to manipulate Christians & society, to intimidate, to control. The Bible is not a book at the service of obvious manipulation. In the face of powerful domineering and obviously evil movements NO ONE should be afraid to cry foul. Such absolutes & demands & simplistic logic should be challenged by all, religious or not. It's interesting to see some scientifically grounded atheists doing a better job and clearly, confidently, w/out apology, seeing & calling out the wrong thinking/evil intent. It has revealed massive weak-mindedness and spiritual superficiality in Christianity, not just liberal Christianity but in the conservative version also. So Christianity has proven to make it MORE difficult to take on this massive attack that has been brewing for decades. This is not to condemn the saints-who need encouragement. It's because the devil has been weaving his plan in this way. God's remnant will survive but it's going to take a long term commitment to bring the church as we know her to a more healthy place.
“Advocacy for the poor” in Tim Keller’s world means forced governmental distribution. All due respect - and I mean that, you’re literally doing God’s work - but I do not understand why you’re giving this dude so much respect and continue giving him the benefit of the doubt. You and others have very correctly been going after these guys for what, literally 2 years now? Why are we still pretending that the guy advocating forced redistributionism as Godly and justifying voting for baby killers is anything but a rank heretic and probably a Marxist wolf? I am a new Christian but I think in some respects that’s to my benefit... I don’t know any of these guys but I do know they’re NOT espousing what’s in my Bible, and clearly they’ve had way more than 2 warnings. These people are LITERALLY justifying the Communist rioters in the street and MARCHING with them while advocating churches be closed down. These people deserve LESS than no respect; they’re misleading God knows how many people IN GOD’S NAME to justify pure wickedness and evil. I could care less about how greatly people benefitted from them in the past; what are they doing now, and what according to Paul does that mean as to if they were ever with us? “He was gracious enough to give his time to me?” Come on Jon!! You’re a good man - far better than me - but I think this is a mistake.
wymanrtaylorBear He explicitly states he’s not for forced redistribution in his last article yet makes an entire argument which demands it. He contradicts himself. Even if he’s a heretic (and he does bring false teaching), heretics can be gracious. Doesn’t take away from their false teaching.
After reading Dave Hunt’s book, “What Love Is This?”, it gives me detailed and footnoted reasons for my dislike of Calvinism and what it makes God out to be.
Where he says "Jesus loses his power" oh, no...I can see RC Sproul going off on that statement...That is a huge problem among many..a misinterpreting of GOD's deity and humanity!!! he also completely missed the point of the sermon on the mount. Anyways, thank you for narrating - Also, wouldn't you think that the assumption of Tim K is Virtue is something we can attain through social interaction and justice on earth..thus not really a product of God's redemptive work and change in our heart?? very good, bless you for all your hard work!
This was so very good and helpful in understanding more clearly where TK stands in his thinking and also explains why it is so difficult actually pointing out the errors in this theology as well as of those who follow him. his justification of the version of Social justice is actually more dangerous because it is disguised in the good and godly..but still not of GOD. I am even more disturbed by this revelation. :-( praying for everyone who is following this path. I see myself in this narration from a long time ago, before I truly understood the depth of GOD's justice, his righteousness and his redemptive plan...My mom & I were in a small church this past year ( we left ASAP ) because the language was like Tim Kellers. they are also huge fans of Tim Keller and 9Marks...using all the material for the Bible studies etc. Well disguised. :-(
In studying Exodus, these 2 verses caught my attention and I could not help but think of how Marxists would not be happy about this arrangement. Exodus 30:14-15 Everyone who is numbered in the census, from twenty years old and upward, shall give the Lord's offering. The rich shall not give more, and the poor shall not give less, than the half shekel, when you give the Lord's offering to make atonement for your lives.
Thanks for the video! I really respect Tim Keller and it was good to know a bit more about his political views. I’ll be interested in his article that you mentioned.
Thank you so much for taking the time to make such awesome videos. I've learned so much from your podcast! Just a question - I heard a while back that Keller had joined the & Campaign, but then could never find any support of that on their site (or anywhere but thirtypiecesofsilver, really). You mentioned that he was "briefly" on the board of the And (&) Campaign (either in this video or another, sorry I can't remember). Anyway, do you know why he joined and then quit so quickly? It seems strange, and I keep wondering what the story is, but I can find nothing about it anywhere! Thanks again for your great work!
Thanks! I've loved Tim Keller's podcasts that were on Biblical topics during this covid-19 stay-home phase and learned some things that drew me closer to God. However our pastor and assistant pastor (Bible Presbyterian Church) just said Keller is very liberal and they didn't like him. That made me wonder. Plus I began to notice some social justice ideas mixed in the lectures from him. So I got familiar with social justice and critical theory. Now from your podcast the pieces of the puzzle have snapped into place. I'm sad because I want a strong Christian podcast to listen to, and Keller seemed so nice. Silly me. (I'm a woman, does that matter?)
I hope you found some solid podcasts to listen to. John MacArthur and Alistair Begg are two of my favorites. Nope, does not matter that you’re a woman. Keller is a wolf who fooled and seduced men and women. I pray you won’t be discouraged. It’s so wonderful to read that you are hungering to learn and grow in your Christian walk. I want to be like that until I draw my last breath. May you be richly blessed and have sweet fellowship with the Lord all the days of your life.
I think what most people are getting at in calling Keller a Marxist is that he accepts Marxist, or Marxian class theory, and false consciousness. His talk of justice employs those understandings. And he doesn't critique Marxism merely by critiquing atheism or materialism. Marx could be as atheistic and materialistic as he wanted to be; but without his theory of class he'd not have gone anywhere with atheism and materialism. Keller hasn't got an argument for his view of justice without either the same view of class or one that is relevantly close enough, and combined with his adulteration of federal theology.
I appreciate being able to listen to your videos....but I will tell you that most of the time I don't have over an hour to commit to listening so either I only listen for maybe 30 min. then try to get back later to finish or I put it into the "Watch Later" file. (neither one usually work as planned) I know you cover issues that need to be heard but was wondering if maybe you could reduce to 30 minutes or less? Please believe me, I'm not trying to cause trouble or imply in any way your videos are not worth sharing...but maybe a little less dialog added to the pertinent facts? But maybe I'm the only one who thinks this way? Idk. All that aside, I do thank you for bringing needed info out in the open for the rest of us. God bless you and your family.
Keller responded to you because your accurate examination of his teaching endangers his following, reputation, and book sales. It should. False teaching injures many. The Ten Commandments clearly establish private property. Also that we should not even "covet" (intensely desire) to have, or plan ways to get, ANYTHING belonging to another person. Charity is encouraged and commended in the Bible and it is clearly voluntary. People are poor because of a combination of influences not mainly because they are "oppressed" by other people groups. Foremost is the SIN nature (selfishness) that manifests early in life in irresponsibility, laziness, rebellion to parents and authority figures who try to guide them the right way, bad examples in sinful parents, bad companions in youth, and acts of sin they commit which can change the course of their life forever, such as sex outside of marriage, robbery, assault, etc. Some people have been enormously injured by the sinful acts of others, (oppressed) but the sin nature is always at work to cause defeat and ruin in the life of every person. Marxist philosophy ignores the sin nature in man which produces BOTH the "oppressors" and the "oppressed". When in power, Marxist systems always install an Oppressor Group in total POWER that will ruthlessly exterminate any who dissent or deviate from their "Utopian Plan For The Oppressed". ( Hasn't anyone noticed this bloody contradiction to their glowing "utopian" promises yet?) Only by healing the SIN nature in man can this problem ever improve which is what Jesus died on the cross to heal. Only as individual people are transformed by Jesus Christ will "society" also be transformed to increasingly heal the misery of mankind. SIN is the disease and "oppressor" that has injured and killed us all. Jesus Christ truly SAVES people from both the practice of sin and the penalty of sin. "One sinner destroys much good." Eccl. 9:18
When communism took over Russia and many other countries, property was taken by force at the threat of death. Countless people were evicted, killed, exiled, destroyed. For many people who had houses, they were forced to open their doors and retreat to just one of the rooms and strangers moved in the rest of the rooms. Bathroom and kitchen became common areas. As communism progressed and developed, they built what in Russia was called "komunalka". I watch the unfolding of the same kind of events in America and honestly, I am scared out of my hair that history will repeat itself in the only place on earth that human freedom and self-determination still exist. Never say never, anything is possible and it is up to us to defend and protect our right to live free. Take it from a former prisoner of Socialism. Our prison walls, of course, were not visible, but very very tangible where you are told what to say and what not to say if you want to live. Someone else determines what my needs are and I end up on a long long wait list to even qualify to rent an apartment, buy a car (well, the designated evaluator of your needs just might have to see if you really need a car or taking the bus is good enough for you... yep, just as the evaluator suspected, you don't need a car so stop being selfish and unpatriotic and take the bus!), or obtain permission to live in a specific city. Up until the very day of the fall of Socialism in my country, there existed labor camps not more than 20 miles from where even I lived. I was stunned when I heard that on the news. There apparently dozens of them throughout the country and none of us even knew they existed just a few miles from where we lived. People sat and rotted for decades because they disagreed with the Marxist ideas. Socialism is like a scary movie where the main character goes about their daily life completely unaware that grave danger is just a few seconds away.
Yes, I agree 😢 I am from Albania. I understand your fears and I see the same things beginning now in USA. Redistribution, communal land trusts, inflation, and open borders. The economy will collapse and that’s when they rush in and take everything.
Jon, thank you for all that you do! My church is currently trying to produce video content, so I know the difficulties. I have a question that I’ve been wondering for a while now about Tim Keller, and listening to “Story time with Jon” confirms it for me even more. Would you say that he’s a believer? I mean, he’s gone to seminary and pastored churches, but as we know, there are many pastors out there who have done the same but apostatized. Listening to you describe Keller’s upbringing though, it doesn’t sound like he ever made a biblically authentic decision to become a Christian. Please correct me if I misunderstood. But it sounds like he finally “accepted” Christianity when he found a version that blended Christianity with something that satisfied him. It sounds exactly like how many arrive at theistic evolution, of which I know he holds to as well, which is a marrying of Christianity and the theory of evolution (macro evolution) which are two things that cannot work together.
I think Dr. Keller has not sought celebrity, either. I have not read his work because old age has made reading much harder; but I have listened to many of his videos. I think it’s important to remember that his congregation is very different from those of us who comment on line. His congregation are usually multi ethnic and people who tend to be very busy working their way into heaven or into their secular idea of success.
Looking at Charity in the bible in Deut 14 every 3 years a tithe for the priests and poor was taken up providing raw produce at the city gates. So this is one example where charity would have filtered through civil institutions (city gate elders/judges). But yearly it was through personally leaving missed produce for the poor to pick by their own labor and efforts. The term poor had a somewhat narrow definition, widows and orphans, so basically anyone culturally restricted or physically restricted in ability to labor. Some try to equate single mothers with widows but in that case the fathers were expected to provide. If a man capable of labor fell on hard times they didn't fall into the poor category and if they had debt they couldn't pay they might have to form a short term labor contract (6 years) which was something between being a servant and a slave, similar to an indentured servant. This was the welfare system. It provided a cheep labor system along with taking personal responsibility and working. I think if one was to go back to David's time and suggest taxes be given to people fallen on hard times without doing any kind of labor they would have looked at you funny...
I think there's an element in the discussion about charity here that is being missed. I think the issue here isn't necessarily whether it's right or wrong for someone to take from another. We know that it is wrong to steal. I think the issue that comes up with the talk about charity and compulsion isn't even necessarily compulsion; although I think it is wrong to try to pressure someone into participating in charity. I think the issue that needs to be addressed first and foremost is the question of whether biblical charity is something an individual does or a government does. There are moments in the Bible which clearly differentiates between what we as individuals should do and what a governing body should do. During the sermon on the mount Christ specifically says that he didn't come down to earth to abolish the law but to fulfill it, but later in the sermon he seemingly contradicts the law when he talks about retribution. Christ addresses the statement "an eye for an eye" but he is specifically addressing individuals and how individuals should act and the text in Exodus that he is referencing is specifically telling the Israelites how to govern themselves. The takeaway that I get from this is that a government should be just while an individual should be merciful. Maybe I'm misreading the Bible here but this is how I interpret this issue.
Remember that our male classmates were forced to enlist or be drafted to fight in the Vietnam War. I’m older than Dr. Keller but did campaign for McGovern because the Vietnam War had become a quagmire. I marched with Dr. King just before he was murdered. I had a close friend who had been tight with the Panthers but was a mother grateful for a ride to grassroots meetings when we met. I worked in a rural high school recently taken into the city of Memphis. My politics had a lot to do with my “congregation”, my students. I had graduated from a Presbyterian college in Memphis with a degree in Spanish and classes in Latin American Studies. I attended an inner city Episcopal cathedral whose jolly Dean Dimmick had breakfast with other spiritual leaders in the inner city.
I think you assume incorrectly that folks actually read the democratic platform...social media is so pervasive, some think that is all they need... Wow, great look at the basis for Dr. Keller's beliefs, just hearing a few of the names he read was enough! Thank you.
Sorry, but Tim Keller is right. There is a wide gulf between advocacy for the poor, helping those outside of your personal circle, and God's commandments to pursue justice and Marxism. Keller's not saying the government should redistribute wealth. But God says we as Christians have a duty to the poor, to help those in need, to visit orphans and widows in their distress, to help them gain access to the basic fundamental rights that we believe are God given. As Americans, we have a duty to advocate for our fellow citizens, to help them achieve the basic level of rights that all Americans should enjoy. That is far, far away from redistribution, reparations, or the liberal definition of justice. Christians can understand Biblical justice without having to subscribe to the liberal definition of justice. It sounds to me as though Jon Harris is arguing against liberal views of justice while Keller is arguing for Biblical justice. A frustrating misunderstanding.
It just seems like justice is being redefined. Justice biblicaly and traditionally is a legal term of right and fair judgement but it is being extended to encompass charity. So charity then becomes more than a calling and responsibility but a moral obligation in the "social" justice view. It must then become indecisively imperative that all needs regardless of circumstance must be met. If that is the case then legally those in need must have the right to other's resources to meet those needs. I don't think I see this in the bible.
Your presentation was very enlightening and more than somewhat discouraging. I had not been aware of much of this. I remember hearing him answer questions about homosexuality as sin. It was painful to hear him dance around the theological edges. I am curious how the whole social justice discussion is going to pan out. I hope MacArthur is wrong. I wonder why D.A.Carson teamed up with Keller to start the Gospel Coalition. Carson has been conspicuously absent in these discussions it seems to me.
Isn’t Tim Keller a have? He has gained wealth from his teachings. I think that the main problem I have with the Democratic Party is they are all about giving other people’s wealth away, but not their own. They don’t play by the same rules they bestow on others. Maybe I am wrong, but that is my perspective.
Jon, you're conflating. Keller's guidance about generosity is not a call to Marxism or third-party managed redistribution. Nor is his use of the word "obligation" a tax or a guilt trip. It's a call to leave things better than we found them and a challenge to be sacrificial to make it happen.
While I do not always quite agree with Tim Keller, I think his view of generosity towards those whom society has less endowed is biblical. As a teacher I see some students who come from families that are often working extremely hard and struggling a great deal in their daily lives. School entities and teachers almost universally see it as their job to give these students a boost, That is not Marxist, or anything - it is just caring. As a believer, while I hate abortion, and do not want to be shamed into reparations, I also find the Republicans to be a hateful scary group sometimes. So I vote all over the party map. God may place it on some hearts to give generously, but one of the things I think Keller is saying is that God does not want us to be miserly towards those who are in need.
This why 501c3 is not Charity. One gives then one gets tax deduction. That is an exchange not giving. It also effectively places Churches with 501c3 as licensed by government by authority of the IRS.
By that Jesus meant that His Kingdom does not operate on worldly principles, not that it has no material component. To say that t he spiritual and the physical are unrelated is to fall for a gnostic idea.
The parable of the Good Samaritan gives us guidance on social action. We respond one-on-one to who God brings us in contact with. Contact with the genuinely needy calls forth a Christlike response in us. That contact defines a neighbor in Jesus' guidance at the parable's end. We view a need and our heart like Christ’s realizes a worthy need. Some widows do not merit institutional help (they had to qualify under the Apostle Paul's guidance), some situations do not bring a response of compassion (even a greeting in our travels), and no one can oblige another to give up private property that could be used for another. The crucial criteria is that our lives meet and a heart responds to some needs, rightly determining justification. So we are show in the Gospels to respond like Christ to situational, recognizable, heart-felt, genuine needs as they appear in the progression of a Christlike life; not to go looking for them or throwing money at them indiscriminately as Judas Iscariot suggested to the Lord.
Jesus did not involve Himself in the affairs of Rome nor did he change what His ministry was about - "To seek and save the lost". His Kingdom is not of this world and we are to spend our time working to that end and not solving temporal issues at the expense of evangelizing on His behalf. Tim Keller is misled and unfortunately will bring others along. Galatians is very clear what the Gospel is to be and is not to be - Paul repeats himself in Galatians 1:7 and 1:8 to be sure it is understood the Gospel is not to be changed or updated to suit the time or situation.
Man. Bummed this all wrapped out over Twitter where confusion and misinterpretation are rampant. Would have loved to see a sit down between the two of you discussing the definitions and nuances of your thoughts. I'm betting a lot more would have surfaced of your agreement on the heart of God.
Coming back some years later, I see how your thinking has developed. You had a more recent video interview with a Dutch theologian who critiqued Kuyper's sphere theology. It is clear that the left has been over many decades doing what they fear may now come from the right: a Kingdom view of all spheres of the world. (Notice Keller uses the idea of God as KING to argue that all society, all peoples must submit to the proper(leftist) "commands" of God. This may not exactly line up with Kuyper's thought about common grace (Keller also uses that term here). I see the grounding of Keller(and others) Christian leftism in a DEMAND that all the world be in accord with God's law. That also is a goal of Kuyper. And now the right Kingdomists(?) who have a different view is coming out with their campaign/movement. The Christian left(Keller) is built up with probably a TON of books coming from the left embraced by seminaries and leaders eager to change the world, with NO ONE showing the weakness of their assumptions. They did not have people like you Jon taking on their views. So they are solid now. We have to build these arguments over against that well developed super-structure. It is a big challenge, but you have made a great start. May many join the effort.
I thought this was going to be unbiased :(. I am not American so I don't understand quite well the politics part of democrats but I thought more Bible was going to be examined. Why is it so hard to talk about social justice with so many Christians of the US?
Spending 40mins analyzing a Twitter encounter is only going to go so deep. "If Keller means X, then I agree. If he means Y, then a disagree." If you all want to know Tim Keller's theology on this, watch this sermon of his: th-cam.com/video/u8Fn4vTTXHM/w-d-xo.html
The problem is Keller is misrepresenting marxism to appease people who are ignorant of marxism but like the sentiment of social justice. The problem is appeasement toward the secular to appear to be harmless.
I believe You're called to lead us on this subject during these times. There's no one out there doing what you do. I'm praying for you, John McArthur and a few others who are closely following the Lord. 🙏🏼Please continue to do so.
I hope that you continue to do these videos. They are indeed conversations that matter.
Thank you so much. I have admired and listened to Keller for years now. In my search for a deeper love of Christ I have learned to dig deeper into those that have reached the heights that Keller has. I am amazed at how personal views, not biblical, are quietly inserted into their preaching. This has taught me to examine even the most admired much closer and discern always checking their teachings to the Bible.
Thank you.
Yes, quietly inserted.
Only about 30 minutes in, but I don't understand why this is a debate among Christians.
Yes, we are to to practice charity. Yes, all we have does come, ultimately, from God. But that is different than saying strangers have a moral or legal claim to your ethically acquired money or possessions. (Even to the point of taking it by force or having the gov't take it from you by force.) They have no such moral claim. How do I know that? Because God has commandments against both stealing and coveting. See how simple and clear that is?
I expect the world to be confused on this. But not Christians.
Biblical illiteracy in the Western world is at its highest point ever since the Protestant Reformation, certainly its highest ever in the U.S., and Marxist redefinitions of justice have supplanted the Biblical understandings discussed by the Church for the past 2,000 years. Marxist definitions of justice, etc. have replaced Biblical ones. And if you buy their narrative of economics as a zero sum game, why wouldn't you fall for the Social Justice Gospel, if only on an emotional level? It's obviously impracticable and illogical when followed out to its logical conclusions, but if you've been taught that everything you have was basically stolen from someone else through slavery, white privilege, systemic oppression, generational inequities in inheritance, etc., why would you question the idea of the government making restitution of the stolen property? Obviously, this is all nonsense and impossible to calculate (How much of what I have was stolen and how much wasn't? Do African nations that succeeded the slaver kingdoms who engaged in the slave trade owe reparations? Does Scandinavia owe the Slavs reparations for the Viking conquest of is now Russia and the enslavement of the locals there? Etc., etc), but they aren't appealing to *reason* they're appealing to *emotion*
Yeah. Another problem with the idea of giving to the poor as justice rather than mercy is the fact that poverty comes of many causes. Much poverty comes of societal problems, but poverty can also come about through bad habits, such as drug use and money mismanagement. While the "giving as justice" argument makes sense in the case of people poor through no fault of their own, it doesn't make sense in the case of people whose own foolishness makes them poor. But I believe God's grace should open our hands to poor people whatever the cause of their poverty. It is true that the way you help someone poor through foolishness will be different from the way you help someone poor due to injustice, but both need help.
exactly! I think the majority of Christians know this, but some people are being confused. Even in my own church, which I consider to be very good, I sometimes hear questionable teaching from the pulpit. We are all being forced to pay attention to details, as we should.
When someone tells you Jesus was a socialist, ask him how many government programs Jesus started, or campaigned for.
YES. VERY GOOD..
Don’t ever stop. We need you!!!!
This is the new legalism..."social justice legalism" is almost the christian version of cancel culture. Thanks Jon - well articulated and spoken with kindness. I appreciate your presentation and tone.
Your statement, "I'm just a little guy."
Young man, your humility bespeaks of someone who is not afraid to share his love of Christ.
Wokism really is becoming America’s new religion.
Thank you for the clarity. Love this channel. Never ever stop.
Jon if God wants you to keep doing these video’s I will be so happy. I am learning a lot from you and your channel is one of my favorites. I wait every week to hear from you!
"And many false prophets shall arise and shall deceive many. And becuase iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure to the end shall be saved". (Mat.24:11-13).
Karl Marx bummed off of his friend. His high view of work seems to have been for others to do it. ;)
Leftists really pick some real “winners” for their heroes like Marx himself, Che Guevara, Hugo Chávez, Nicolás Maduro, Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, Vladimir Lenin, Michael Brown, George Floyd, Jacob Blake, and numerous others that bear no resemblance to true heroes, but they’re all they have to emulate.
Every single NT reference to Christian giving involves ONLY Christians. There is NO call for Christians to give to unbelievers. Further, all Christian giving is under grace, not obligation.
@NegativeThoughts hi! Thanks for your comment. I specifically referred to the Church, which is His Body; that is, Christian giving, as opposed to pre-Cross giving. I studied this intently in preparation for writing the chapter on giving in my book on Pauline doctrine. I understand that God gives "common grace," but His instructions to the Church are narrowly focused.
@NegativeThoughts The Good Samaritan is a parable and not an example to follow. The point of the parable is that we CANNOT follow that example. It's impossible. For one to do so it would require giving everything, every day, to every person one encounters.
@@lkae4 yes, the world thinks that the gospel is stupid! 1 Corinthians 1:18
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
@@theprofitdare3704 You have said about the Good Samaritan passage,"that it cannot be followed" ! I would respectfully say read the passage! Jesus is that recapitulating teaching from torah to love your neighbor as yourself! The pharisees were the audience! Jesus is expressing this to them to condemn their behavior, and put forthrightly the behavior of a child of God! Most historical theological teaching would agree with this! Even if we do it imperfectly! Thanks!
@@scottbaldridge6148 kind of the point, Scott. The original question was "what must be done to inherit eternal life."
So keep the entire text in context. Imperfection of any manner is insufficient to garner access to heaven. Loving our neighbors is an outworking of our salvation not what causes it.
The point was that we cannot perfectly folllow these two commands. Our salvation is never a rsesult of good works. Even when our works are admirable they are still rooted and grounded in pride, arrogance and self righteousness..
Selah
excellent. Thank you for thrashing this stuff out. So many are slipping into a destructive ideology without this careful discussion.
Tim Keller has prevaricated on several issues. Now I can see why. Is he ambivalent about biblical Christianity or is he justifying his Marxian views with Christianity?
I disagree with Keller. Talking about oppression and justice does not make one a student of the Bible (or a disciple of Jesus), it can merely mean that one is a highly intelligent opportunist using the pain of others to build a new empire.
The starting of LAWLESSNESS..THIS IS VERY SERIOUS
I love your videos. Thank you for taking the time and putting in the effort to do these.
Great job on the video Jon. I appreciate all the time and research you put in to this.
i've been waiting for this
Why do the "poor" not have an obligation to give of the bounty of their idle time to time-strapped me by mowing my lawn without expectation of anything in return? They have a resource I do not. Indeed, the funds for the tax-funded social services they enjoy that help make their idle time possible were taken, by force, from my pocket. So, I actually have a moral claim on their time. Time is money, but only my money, but not their time, appears to be subject to the whims of "social justice." Why is that?
Excellent flip!
This shouldn't be necessary to say. But most poor people are time-strapped too.
awesome comment
Jesus healed the crippled , he didn’t engage in rehabilitative strategies to improve the conditions of the physically disadvantaged .
My special needs son and I would happily clean and tidy your house. We have no qualms about giving our time but we would like award wages thanks.
Sounds like Tim Keller does not read his bible. God specifically does not like people giving out of obligation, he wants you give freely:
2 Corinthians 9:7 (NASB) Each one must do just as he has purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.
Jesus healed the crippled , he didn’t engage in rehabilitative strategies to improve the conditions of the physically disadvantaged .
Keller is a theistic evolutionist. It fascinates me that he constantly talks about “image bearers”. He really does talk about this a lot when it comes to socialist justice and making a person feel guilty about how they treat their neighbor, but he seems confused as to what exactly it means to bear the image of God, and more importantly have been created bearing that image and likeness.
So, what DOES it mean to bear the image of God?
I can say what it's not, randomly evolved beings that required no hand from God to create
He does believe in a literal Adam and Even - Divinely Created and/or set apart.
We appreciate the great job you're doing, for as long as you choose to do it.
You should do some musical stuff here too!
I'd like to see Keller's checkbook.
Just what I was thinking, thank you...I saw a video, Dinesh D'Sousa, a young guy saying that we should give poor people our homes, out cars, our clothes...Dinesh asked him what of his possessions he had given away, as a true test of your values is if you actually do what you say...crickets, then deflecting, denying...
Probably paid to teach social justice theory...pastors that look to him are doing so.
He lives pretty modestly. Please do not assume the worst of a man who has worked hard and done his very best. None of us has the whole picture.
This will help to understand. I plan on saving this one to watch. Thanks! 😊
Jon,
Keller’s lack of direct engagement with your position is an involuntary admission that he can’t rebut your Biblical arguments on socioeconomic issues. Keep it up, brother 🙏🏻
“Marx could not have kept a roof over his family’s head if not for his top sap and sugar-daddy, Friedrich Engels. Engels subsidized Marx and his family throughout his life. He did so courtesy of his inheritance from his wealthy capitalist father.
"Marx drained his own parents’ inheritance. They finally had to cut him off. Marx refused to work, let alone bathe or groom himself. Both his mother and wife expressed the wish that “Karl would earn some capital rather than just write about capital.” His wife constantly went begging for money to relatives and whoever else because Marx wouldn’t earn any. Marx said that a day didn’t go by that his wife didn’t wish she were in her grave with the children - “such is her misery.”
“Part of that misery came from Marx cheating on his wife with the family nursemaid. She was a young girl named Lenchen, whom Marx impregnated behind his wife’s back. Marx refused to pay Lenchen a penny - she lived with the family as effectively an indentured servant. He also refused to acknowledge that the child was his, or pay a penny of child support. Engels came to the rescue again, claiming paternity and financial responsibility for the child in order to save Marx’s marriage and reputation. Engels himself didn’t give a whit for marriage (he didn’t believe in the institution) nor for his own reputation. The child was named Freddy, after Friedrich Engels.
“Marx said that ‘Communism begins where atheism begins.’ Marx declared religion ‘the opium of the people.’ He said that “the criticism of religion is the beginning of all criticism.” Marx in a letter to Arnold Ruge called for the ‘ruthless criticism of all that exists.’
“Marx had a favorite quote from Goethe’s Faust, ‘Everything that exists deserves to perish.’ Guess who said that? Answer: Mephistopheles, the demon/devil character.
“Beyond ruthless and relentless criticism, there was ruthless and relentless abolition. The word ‘abolition’ is omnipresent throughout Marx’s writings. As Robert Payne noted, the word almost seems to jump off every page of the Manifesto:
“And after he has ‘abolished’ property, family, and nations, and all existing societies, Marx shows little interest in creating a new society on the ruins of the old. … He had written in a poem to Jenny [his wife] that he would throw a gauntlet at the world, and watch it crumble. Comforted by her love, he would wander through the kingdom of ruins, his words glowing with action, his heart like the heart of God. The Communist Manifesto was the gauntlet he threw at the world.
“It was indeed. Marx wanted to burn down the house.”
It seems that Keller is way too focused on social engineering with the goal of achieving a better world. We know utopia is unrealistic in a fallen world where Satan is the prince of the power of the air. The only Biblical approach to lasting change in the human heart is regeneration through the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Yes caring for the poor is a constant concern, but Jesus said the poor we would always have in this life. The true work of the Church is clearly Gospel ministry and edifying the believer. It seems the change we should want mostly comes with the salvation of one heart at a time. (I’m sure you know all this. I just needed to say it. )
Maybe we know it, but very worth repeating from time to time, thank you : )
Jesus healed the crippled , he didn’t engage in rehabilitative strategies to improve the conditions of the physically disadvantaged .
Big Eva: *takes issue with conflating “conservative” justice with biblical justice*
Also Big Eva: *conflates biblical justice with social justice*
A good way to know where someone really strands is to see which he is quicker to criticize--BLM, or Trump.
I think Democrats who say they are evangelical Christians or even Christians of any sort don’t know their bible very well.
Jerry Abernathy WHY ?
Jerry Abernathy a lot of irony in that comment
Jerry Abernathy In reality you are pro death ..taking a life
@@jerryabernathy3585 Psalm 139:13
For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother's womb.
And many other verses that we are God’s intentional creation.
Killing a baby at any stage is shedding of innocent blood, murder. There is no biblically viable excuse for abortion except for selfish and evil reasons. If you truly are a Follower of Christ, study the Word and you will know it to be true. Be blessed
Thank you for helping us to think. I really enjoy your videos. You have certainly helped me. God bless you Jon.
But - Whatever Tim Keller may call himself - IF his principles, words and actions align with Marx, Isn't he, in actuality, a Marxist?
No, Keller isn't a Marxist. Neither is he a cultural Marxist, although labels such as that are quite popular within uber-conservative Christian circles. His views of justice for the city chafe against , but he's not a sham pastor. Save that for the TD Jakes, Paula White Cains, and the ilk of truly false preachers.
The last paragraph of this piece is a reminder of how we need to think before labeling others: www.whitehorseinn.org/2018/10/the-mod-is-tim-keller-a-marxist/
@@AskMsDel Admittedly - I don't know Tim Keller. I was commenting based on John's reading of the audio book. There is an expression I'm sure you're aware of - if it looks, swims and acts like a duck - it is a duck. True that labeling can have the nature of not painting the whole picture, and can sometimes, unfortunately, be hurtful. But, that is generally recognized - and we take that into consideration in our final analyses. But in order to make some semblance of sense in this world - it is helpful, when I'm buying a can that is 'labelled' 'corn', that there is predominantly corn in there. One time I found a lone carrot hidden in a can of corn. Shocking - right? :) Anyway, whatever it is, based on my learning of today, I will keep a keen eye on Tim Keller. BTW - I agree with you on your labeling (I'm sure you thought before doing that) of Paula White and TD Jakes (2 peas in a pod, to continue the vegetable metaphor). I would also 'label' them as 'prosperity preachers' - which is designating with even greater specificity what type of the more general peas or corn I'm getting - creamed, with pimento, split, dried, sweet, etc. May the Lord continue to bless us with growing discernment as we walk this boggy road...
Jon, have you written a book on this or is it only in audio book format? Your research has taken the wind out of me. How do we navigate these waters? Many of us have looked-up to these men: Tim Keller, Mark Dever, Al Mohler, John Piper, etc...and have embraced 1 Cor. 3 to see this as a good movement (For all things are yours, 22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future-all are yours, 23 and you are Christ's, and Christ is God's.), perhaps even a new Reformation for the Doctrines of Grace. I had seen these men as a united Evangelical Reformed front, arms locked, and "Together for the Gospel." My discernment has not been politically keen and so all of this is startling, an upheaval of sorts. I am bewildered that none of these men are standing up with their friend John MacArthur. What kind of fissure are we witnessing? Are these alliances, which many of us have found strength in (maybe more so than God Himself), crumbling? Has the culture of the Academic Left oozed its way into the mortar of our Evangelical alliances and organizations? Have we depended upon these alliances and "ministries" for too much of our strength and are we witnessing a call back to a solitary trust in God alone and a simple dedication to our local churches? This reminds me of Martin Lloyd Jones, as he stood virtually alone against sprawling liberalism into many of the evangelical alliances in England.
Max Strange Yes, it’s seeping in from the top , funded by concerning sources
Thank you so much Jon. What a service you have done for the body of Christ, using your gifts of research and critical thinking combined with a knowledge of the Bible. I'm so glad I wasn't the only one who couldn't figure out what Keller was saying on Twitter. It didn't make much sense. I appreciate your humility and know that where God guides, He provides. If he brings more and more people to your "classroom" He will give you the grace to handle it. We need leaders, like you, who are unafraid to take on even the biggest of the bigwigs on behalf of truth.
I reject Kellers premise that people have a right to “upward mobility”.
Humm I love what u said “Obligation to God” that is a good key I think because I see the focus on “obligation to people” that changes everything!
I agree with Keller on this one. Keller has not said it is immoral to be rich or to have more than others. I have actually heard him say that being rich is not a sin. In fact when you look throughout scripture there are numerous, godly, rich people. Keller has never said, having more than others is sinful. Keller has said that if you do happen to be wealthy, it is sinful is to abdicate your responsibility to give to the poor. Giving to the poor is not an optional thing, if you find it in your heart, you can do it if you choose. It is in the realm of moral obligation. If I fail to give to the poor, I am sinning before God. It is a recognition that all that I have is from God. And he has given it to me not just so that I can enjoy it myself, but so I can share with others. The judgment of God between the sheep and the goats in the Bible is based on how Christians treated the poor. You can say, "I have never stolen from anyone." But if you have refused to tithe (which God calls steeling in Malachi) or give to the poor, you have committed just as heinous a sin.
interesting points
The source of contention is that Keller wrote one of the points of justice is the poor have a claim to the rich's property. That is not true. No one has a claim to what is given voluntarily as a gift. That would be like saying fallen man has a claim to God's forgiveness.
Keller's view is even more problematic when you take into account his advocacy for intergenerational race guilt and acceptance of the systemic racism canard.
"The Poor" is use like the Race card to trump everyone & everything. The secular left is wanting Christians to conflate secular society with a utopian Biblical order and commandments of religious righteousness/justice. YET for anyone with RIGHT leaning secular views to do this is anathema/verboten !fundamentalism! ONLY if you are solidly unquestioning, uncritically, committed to the POWER MOVEMENT of the secular left are you on the holy rolling love-boat.
We cannot be stupid about what they are doing and where it's headed. You are picking out the LEFT's few repeated condemnatory Bible verses, the left academy's books of tendentious Marxist framing, to manipulate Christians & society, to intimidate, to control. The Bible is not a book at the service of obvious manipulation. In the face of powerful domineering and obviously evil movements NO ONE should be afraid to cry foul.
Such absolutes & demands & simplistic logic should be challenged by all, religious or not. It's interesting to see some scientifically grounded atheists doing a better job and clearly, confidently, w/out apology, seeing & calling out the wrong thinking/evil intent. It has revealed massive weak-mindedness and spiritual superficiality in Christianity, not just liberal Christianity but in the conservative version also.
So Christianity has proven to make it MORE difficult to take on this massive attack that has been brewing for decades. This is not to condemn the saints-who need encouragement. It's because the devil has been weaving his plan in this way. God's remnant will survive but it's going to take a long term commitment to bring the church as we know her to a more healthy place.
“Advocacy for the poor” in Tim Keller’s world means forced governmental distribution. All due respect - and I mean that, you’re literally doing God’s work - but I do not understand why you’re giving this dude so much respect and continue giving him the benefit of the doubt. You and others have very correctly been going after these guys for what, literally 2 years now? Why are we still pretending that the guy advocating forced redistributionism as Godly and justifying voting for baby killers is anything but a rank heretic and probably a Marxist wolf?
I am a new Christian but I think in some respects that’s to my benefit... I don’t know any of these guys but I do know they’re NOT espousing what’s in my Bible, and clearly they’ve had way more than 2 warnings. These people are LITERALLY justifying the Communist rioters in the street and MARCHING with them while advocating churches be closed down. These people deserve LESS than no respect; they’re misleading God knows how many people IN GOD’S NAME to justify pure wickedness and evil. I could care less about how greatly people benefitted from them in the past; what are they doing now, and what according to Paul does that mean as to if they were ever with us?
“He was gracious enough to give his time to me?” Come on Jon!! You’re a good man - far better than me - but I think this is a mistake.
Agreed. Tim Keller is a Marxist subversive.
wymanrtaylorBear He explicitly states he’s not for forced redistribution in his last article yet makes an entire argument which demands it. He contradicts himself. Even if he’s a heretic (and he does bring false teaching), heretics can be gracious. Doesn’t take away from their false teaching.
As a new Christian,don’t get caught up in nationalism,patriotism,dogmatism and conservatism.
Tim Keller is a true Christ follower.
@@donaldplatt9083 Not if he advocates what I did as a godless Communist. That makes him either confused or a wolf in sheep's clothing.
Eunuch By Soy agree,thank you.
I realize that this is an older post, but why quote John Calvin as justification for a given position. What John Calvin wrote is not scripture.
After reading Dave Hunt’s book, “What Love Is This?”, it gives me detailed and footnoted reasons for my dislike of Calvinism and what it makes God out to be.
Where he says "Jesus loses his power" oh, no...I can see RC Sproul going off on that statement...That is a huge problem among many..a misinterpreting of GOD's deity and humanity!!! he also completely missed the point of the sermon on the mount. Anyways, thank you for narrating - Also, wouldn't you think that the assumption of Tim K is Virtue is something we can attain through social interaction and justice on earth..thus not really a product of God's redemptive work and change in our heart?? very good, bless you for all your hard work!
It does start to sound like a gospel of (socialist) works, doesn't it?!!?
This was so very good and helpful in understanding more clearly where TK stands in his thinking and also explains why it is so difficult actually pointing out the errors in this theology as well as of those who follow him. his justification of the version of Social justice is actually more dangerous because it is disguised in the good and godly..but still not of GOD. I am even more disturbed by this revelation. :-( praying for everyone who is following this path. I see myself in this narration from a long time ago, before I truly understood the depth of GOD's justice, his righteousness and his redemptive plan...My mom & I were in a small church this past year ( we left ASAP ) because the language was like Tim Kellers. they are also huge fans of Tim Keller and 9Marks...using all the material for the Bible studies etc. Well disguised. :-(
In studying Exodus, these 2 verses caught my attention and I could not help but think of how Marxists would not be happy about this arrangement.
Exodus 30:14-15
Everyone who is numbered in the census, from twenty years old and upward, shall give the Lord's offering. The rich shall not give more, and the poor shall not give less, than the half shekel, when you give the Lord's offering to make atonement for your lives.
Excellent!
Because so many don’t really want to deal with abortion. I have dealt with pastors & most don’t want to deal with it
The abolitionists have found this to be the case most of the time. Just doing that ministry is enough to get a layperson disfellowshipped.
Thanks for the video! I really respect Tim Keller and it was good to know a bit more about his political views. I’ll be interested in his article that you mentioned.
Thank you so much for taking the time to make such awesome videos. I've learned so much from your podcast! Just a question - I heard a while back that Keller had joined the & Campaign, but then could never find any support of that on their site (or anywhere but thirtypiecesofsilver, really). You mentioned that he was "briefly" on the board of the And (&) Campaign (either in this video or another, sorry I can't remember). Anyway, do you know why he joined and then quit so quickly? It seems strange, and I keep wondering what the story is, but I can find nothing about it anywhere!
Thanks again for your great work!
Too late Jon. We’re already looking to you for a proper understanding of the issues. Most of us are ‘little guys’.
Thanks! I've loved Tim Keller's podcasts that were on Biblical topics during this covid-19 stay-home phase and learned some things that drew me closer to God. However our pastor and assistant pastor (Bible Presbyterian Church) just said Keller is very liberal and they didn't like him. That made me wonder. Plus I began to notice some social justice ideas mixed in the lectures from him. So I got familiar with social justice and critical theory. Now from your podcast the pieces of the puzzle have snapped into place. I'm sad because I want a strong Christian podcast to listen to, and Keller seemed so nice. Silly me. (I'm a woman, does that matter?)
I hope you found some solid podcasts to listen to. John MacArthur and Alistair Begg are two of my favorites.
Nope, does not matter that you’re a woman. Keller is a wolf who fooled and seduced men and women. I pray you won’t be discouraged. It’s so wonderful to read that you are hungering to learn and grow in your Christian walk. I want to be like that until I draw my last breath. May you be richly blessed and have sweet fellowship with the Lord all the days of your life.
1:00 They're turning on Jim Wallis?! Ha! I love it when these Leftists devour one another!
I think what most people are getting at in calling Keller a Marxist is that he accepts Marxist, or Marxian class theory, and false consciousness. His talk of justice employs those understandings. And he doesn't critique Marxism merely by critiquing atheism or materialism. Marx could be as atheistic and materialistic as he wanted to be; but without his theory of class he'd not have gone anywhere with atheism and materialism. Keller hasn't got an argument for his view of justice without either the same view of class or one that is relevantly close enough, and combined with his adulteration of federal theology.
I appreciate being able to listen to your videos....but I will tell you that most of the time I don't have over an hour to commit to listening so either I only listen for maybe 30 min. then try to get back later to finish or I put it into the "Watch Later" file. (neither one usually work as planned) I know you cover issues that need to be heard but was wondering if maybe you could reduce to 30 minutes or less? Please believe me, I'm not trying to cause trouble or imply in any way your videos are not worth sharing...but maybe a little less dialog added to the pertinent facts? But maybe I'm the only one who thinks this way? Idk. All that aside, I do thank you for bringing needed info out in the open for the rest of us. God bless you and your family.
I listen at 1.5 speed.
The link to the article on the bottom of your description doesn’t work. Could you fix the link? I would really like to read your article
Thank you!
Keller responded to you because your accurate examination of his teaching endangers his following, reputation, and book sales. It should. False teaching injures many.
The Ten Commandments clearly establish private property. Also that we should not even "covet" (intensely desire) to have, or plan ways to get, ANYTHING belonging to another person.
Charity is encouraged and commended in the Bible and it is clearly voluntary.
People are poor because of a combination of influences not mainly because they are "oppressed" by other people groups. Foremost is the SIN nature (selfishness) that manifests early in life in irresponsibility, laziness, rebellion to parents and authority figures who try to guide them the right way, bad examples in sinful parents, bad companions in youth, and acts of sin they commit which can change the course of their life forever, such as sex outside of marriage, robbery, assault, etc. Some people have been enormously injured by the sinful acts of others, (oppressed) but the sin nature is always at work to cause defeat and ruin in the life of every person.
Marxist philosophy ignores the sin nature in man which produces BOTH the "oppressors" and the "oppressed". When in power, Marxist systems always install an Oppressor Group in total POWER that will ruthlessly exterminate any who dissent or deviate from their "Utopian Plan For The Oppressed". ( Hasn't anyone noticed this bloody contradiction to their glowing "utopian" promises yet?)
Only by healing the SIN nature in man can this problem ever improve which is what Jesus died on the cross to heal. Only as individual people are transformed by Jesus Christ will "society" also be transformed to increasingly heal the misery of mankind. SIN is the disease and "oppressor" that has injured and killed us all. Jesus Christ truly SAVES people from both the practice of sin and the penalty of sin.
"One sinner destroys much good." Eccl. 9:18
So, so good
When communism took over Russia and many other countries, property was taken by force at the threat of death. Countless people were evicted, killed, exiled, destroyed. For many people who had houses, they were forced to open their doors and retreat to just one of the rooms and strangers moved in the rest of the rooms. Bathroom and kitchen became common areas. As communism progressed and developed, they built what in Russia was called "komunalka". I watch the unfolding of the same kind of events in America and honestly, I am scared out of my hair that history will repeat itself in the only place on earth that human freedom and self-determination still exist. Never say never, anything is possible and it is up to us to defend and protect our right to live free. Take it from a former prisoner of Socialism. Our prison walls, of course, were not visible, but very very tangible where you are told what to say and what not to say if you want to live. Someone else determines what my needs are and I end up on a long long wait list to even qualify to rent an apartment, buy a car (well, the designated evaluator of your needs just might have to see if you really need a car or taking the bus is good enough for you... yep, just as the evaluator suspected, you don't need a car so stop being selfish and unpatriotic and take the bus!), or obtain permission to live in a specific city. Up until the very day of the fall of Socialism in my country, there existed labor camps not more than 20 miles from where even I lived. I was stunned when I heard that on the news. There apparently dozens of them throughout the country and none of us even knew they existed just a few miles from where we lived. People sat and rotted for decades because they disagreed with the Marxist ideas. Socialism is like a scary movie where the main character goes about their daily life completely unaware that grave danger is just a few seconds away.
Yes, I agree 😢 I am from Albania. I understand your fears and I see the same things beginning now in USA. Redistribution, communal land trusts, inflation, and open borders. The economy will collapse and that’s when they rush in and take everything.
Marx had such a high view of work that he basically never worked a day in his life.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that someone (Tim Keller) is a false prophet when they can't even get Genesis chapter 1 right...
Jon, thank you for all that you do! My church is currently trying to produce video content, so I know the difficulties. I have a question that I’ve been wondering for a while now about Tim Keller, and listening to “Story time with Jon” confirms it for me even more. Would you say that he’s a believer? I mean, he’s gone to seminary and pastored churches, but as we know, there are many pastors out there who have done the same but apostatized. Listening to you describe Keller’s upbringing though, it doesn’t sound like he ever made a biblically authentic decision to become a Christian. Please correct me if I misunderstood. But it sounds like he finally “accepted” Christianity when he found a version that blended Christianity with something that satisfied him. It sounds exactly like how many arrive at theistic evolution, of which I know he holds to as well, which is a marrying of Christianity and the theory of evolution (macro evolution) which are two things that cannot work together.
Tim Keller is an example of humanistic education being synchronized with Christianity. This is the problem with Big Eva .
I think Dr. Keller has not sought celebrity, either. I have not read his work because old age has made reading much harder; but I have listened to many of his videos. I think it’s important to remember that his congregation is very different from those of us who comment on line. His congregation are usually multi ethnic and people who tend to be very busy working their way into heaven or into their secular idea of success.
Looking at Charity in the bible in Deut 14 every 3 years a tithe for the priests and poor was taken up providing raw produce at the city gates. So this is one example where charity would have filtered through civil institutions (city gate elders/judges). But yearly it was through personally leaving missed produce for the poor to pick by their own labor and efforts. The term poor had a somewhat narrow definition, widows and orphans, so basically anyone culturally restricted or physically restricted in ability to labor. Some try to equate single mothers with widows but in that case the fathers were expected to provide. If a man capable of labor fell on hard times they didn't fall into the poor category and if they had debt they couldn't pay they might have to form a short term labor contract (6 years) which was something between being a servant and a slave, similar to an indentured servant. This was the welfare system. It provided a cheep labor system along with taking personal responsibility and working. I think if one was to go back to David's time and suggest taxes be given to people fallen on hard times without doing any kind of labor they would have looked at you funny...
how come your audio goes in and out during the audio book portion at the end?
I think there's an element in the discussion about charity here that is being missed. I think the issue here isn't necessarily whether it's right or wrong for someone to take from another. We know that it is wrong to steal. I think the issue that comes up with the talk about charity and compulsion isn't even necessarily compulsion; although I think it is wrong to try to pressure someone into participating in charity. I think the issue that needs to be addressed first and foremost is the question of whether biblical charity is something an individual does or a government does. There are moments in the Bible which clearly differentiates between what we as individuals should do and what a governing body should do. During the sermon on the mount Christ specifically says that he didn't come down to earth to abolish the law but to fulfill it, but later in the sermon he seemingly contradicts the law when he talks about retribution. Christ addresses the statement "an eye for an eye" but he is specifically addressing individuals and how individuals should act and the text in Exodus that he is referencing is specifically telling the Israelites how to govern themselves. The takeaway that I get from this is that a government should be just while an individual should be merciful. Maybe I'm misreading the Bible here but this is how I interpret this issue.
Remember that our male classmates were forced to enlist or be drafted to fight in the Vietnam War. I’m older than Dr. Keller but did campaign for McGovern because the Vietnam War had become a quagmire. I marched with Dr. King just before he was murdered. I had a close friend who had been tight with the Panthers but was a mother grateful for a ride to grassroots meetings when we met. I worked in a rural high school recently taken into the city of Memphis. My politics had a lot to do with my “congregation”, my students. I had graduated from a Presbyterian college in Memphis with a degree in Spanish and classes in Latin American Studies. I attended an inner city Episcopal cathedral whose jolly Dean Dimmick had breakfast with other spiritual leaders in the inner city.
????????
Charity is not charity if you are giving somebody something they already ought to own.
The movie Amadeus is explicitly about the central error of social justice. Whom God Loves is not for us to decide.
Apparently there is an article in Relevant Magazine (?) that shared your tweet discussion.
relevantmagazine.com/god/church/tim-keller-makes-the-case-that-caring-about-social-justice-doesnt-make-you-a-marxist/
@@janeteaton3240 its gone
Can you link Keller's article that comes out that you mentioned?
I think you assume incorrectly that folks actually read the democratic platform...social media is so pervasive, some think that is all they need...
Wow, great look at the basis for Dr. Keller's beliefs, just hearing a few of the names he read was enough! Thank you.
Sorry, but Tim Keller is right. There is a wide gulf between advocacy for the poor, helping those outside of your personal circle, and God's commandments to pursue justice and Marxism. Keller's not saying the government should redistribute wealth. But God says we as Christians have a duty to the poor, to help those in need, to visit orphans and widows in their distress, to help them gain access to the basic fundamental rights that we believe are God given. As Americans, we have a duty to advocate for our fellow citizens, to help them achieve the basic level of rights that all Americans should enjoy. That is far, far away from redistribution, reparations, or the liberal definition of justice. Christians can understand Biblical justice without having to subscribe to the liberal definition of justice.
It sounds to me as though Jon Harris is arguing against liberal views of justice while Keller is arguing for Biblical justice. A frustrating misunderstanding.
Is there a book coming out called “social justice goes to church?”
18:00 - I'm getting really tired of hearing "Calvin said..." Kinda tempts me to leave my Pres church for Lutheran.
Tim Keller is listed as having a net worth between $1M-$5M in 2019. FYI.
Tim Keller confirmed my suspicion
It just seems like justice is being redefined. Justice biblicaly and traditionally is a legal term of right and fair judgement but it is being extended to encompass charity. So charity then becomes more than a calling and responsibility but a moral obligation in the "social" justice view. It must then become indecisively imperative that all needs regardless of circumstance must be met. If that is the case then legally those in need must have the right to other's resources to meet those needs. I don't think I see this in the bible.
In case anyone was curious, the guy mentioned at 50:50 is R.D. Laing, not Artie Lange 😂😂
Where's your review of Tim Keller's article.
Your presentation was very enlightening and more than somewhat discouraging. I had not been aware of much of this. I remember hearing him answer questions about homosexuality as sin. It was painful to hear him dance around the theological edges. I am curious how the whole social justice discussion is going to pan out. I hope MacArthur is wrong. I wonder why D.A.Carson teamed up with Keller to start the Gospel Coalition. Carson has been conspicuously absent in these discussions it seems to me.
I, too, have wondered about Carson. He definitely seems AWOL. Perhaps he's "retired" from public life...?
Isn’t Tim Keller a have? He has gained wealth from his teachings. I think that the main problem I have with the Democratic Party is they are all about giving other people’s wealth away, but not their own. They don’t play by the same rules they bestow on others. Maybe I am wrong, but that is my perspective.
Jon, you're conflating. Keller's guidance about generosity is not a call to Marxism or third-party managed redistribution. Nor is his use of the word "obligation" a tax or a guilt trip. It's a call to leave things better than we found them and a challenge to be sacrificial to make it happen.
While I do not always quite agree with Tim Keller, I think his view of generosity towards those whom society has less endowed is biblical. As a teacher I see some students who come from families that are often working extremely hard and struggling a great deal in their daily lives. School entities and teachers almost universally see it as their job to give these students a boost, That is not Marxist, or anything - it is just caring. As a believer, while I hate abortion, and do not want to be shamed into reparations, I also find the Republicans to be a hateful scary group sometimes. So I vote all over the party map. God may place it on some hearts to give generously, but one of the things I think Keller is saying is that God does not want us to be miserly towards those who are in need.
This why 501c3 is not Charity. One gives then one gets tax deduction. That is an exchange not giving. It also effectively places Churches with 501c3 as licensed by government by authority of the IRS.
I hope you don’t mind me asking, but how old are you?
Please see the movie First They Killed My Father and an old flick China Cry to see where this is heading.
The purpose of salvation is to redeem the material world? Jesus said, My kingdom is not of this world.
By that Jesus meant that His Kingdom does not operate on worldly principles, not that it has no material component. To say that t he spiritual and the physical are unrelated is to fall for a gnostic idea.
The parable of the Good Samaritan gives us guidance on social action. We respond one-on-one to who God brings us in contact with. Contact with the genuinely needy calls forth a Christlike response in us. That contact defines a neighbor in Jesus' guidance at the parable's end. We view a need and our heart like Christ’s realizes a worthy need. Some widows do not merit institutional help (they had to qualify under the Apostle Paul's guidance), some situations do not bring a response of compassion (even a greeting in our travels), and no one can oblige another to give up private property that could be used for another. The crucial criteria is that our lives meet and a heart responds to some needs, rightly determining justification. So we are show in the Gospels to respond like Christ to situational, recognizable, heart-felt, genuine needs as they appear in the progression of a Christlike life; not to go looking for them or throwing money at them indiscriminately as Judas Iscariot suggested to the Lord.
Jesus did not involve Himself in the affairs of Rome nor did he change what His ministry was about - "To seek and save the lost". His Kingdom is not of this world and we are to spend our time working to that end and not solving temporal issues at the expense of evangelizing on His behalf. Tim Keller is misled and unfortunately will bring others along. Galatians is very clear what the Gospel is to be and is not to be - Paul repeats himself in Galatians 1:7 and 1:8 to be sure it is understood the Gospel is not to be changed or updated to suit the time or situation.
Talking about oppression is an interesting litmus test for identifying a biblical student. 🤔
Jon is Fringe's Joshua Carter Jackson's twin! Who agrees?
Nobody has a TV? Fringe? SRSLY?
@@Scottyman99 lol I was thinking who does he remind me of, not seen Fringe I don't think but think I know who u mean - Dawson's Creek to go oldschool!
who is next on this guy’s hit list.?
Man. Bummed this all wrapped out over Twitter where confusion and misinterpretation are rampant. Would have loved to see a sit down between the two of you discussing the definitions and nuances of your thoughts. I'm betting a lot more would have surfaced of your agreement on the heart of God.
yes was thinking the same and would love to see this too
Coming back some years later, I see how your thinking has developed. You had a more recent video interview with a Dutch theologian who critiqued Kuyper's sphere theology.
It is clear that the left has been over many decades doing what they fear may now come from the right: a Kingdom view of all spheres of the world. (Notice Keller uses the idea of God as KING to argue that all society, all peoples must submit to the proper(leftist) "commands" of God.
This may not exactly line up with Kuyper's thought about common grace (Keller also uses that term here). I see the grounding of Keller(and others) Christian leftism in a DEMAND that all the world be in accord with God's law. That also is a goal of Kuyper. And now the right Kingdomists(?) who have a different view is coming out with their campaign/movement.
The Christian left(Keller) is built up with probably a TON of books coming from the left embraced by seminaries and leaders eager to change the world, with NO ONE showing the weakness of their assumptions. They did not have people like you Jon taking on their views. So they are solid now. We have to build these arguments over against that well developed super-structure. It is a big challenge, but you have made a great start. May many join the effort.
Democrat Evangelical?
Ayayay people, just stop! Its ridiculous.
Democrat Evangelicals=oxymoron
@@allensimpson7460capital O bro, couldn't agree more, I rolled my eyes when I heard Democrat evangelical.
I know who comes up with this stuff? Oh yeah libtards.
I thought this was going to be unbiased :(. I am not American so I don't understand quite well the politics part of democrats but I thought more Bible was going to be examined. Why is it so hard to talk about social justice with so many Christians of the US?
Spending 40mins analyzing a Twitter encounter is only going to go so deep. "If Keller means X, then I agree. If he means Y, then a disagree."
If you all want to know Tim Keller's theology on this, watch this sermon of his: th-cam.com/video/u8Fn4vTTXHM/w-d-xo.html
The problem is Keller is misrepresenting marxism to appease people who are ignorant of marxism but like the sentiment of social justice. The problem is appeasement toward the secular to appear to be harmless.
How can you say that Keller is not a Marxist just because he says he's not...?
Sin is sin, if you let a little in, it spreads....as does Marxism.