Great video. Agree 100%. I don't dislike map markers as a concept whatsoever (would've loved some back in Daggerfall, good grief), but I DO dislike developers using them as a lazy shorthand instead of writing their quests properly.
Map markers shouldn't replace NPCs giving vague hints or complete directions. It shouldn't replace the player having to find notes and clues. Map markers are a fine option. But when solely used by the Devs it detracts from a lot of detail and depth from most games. It's not a big deal that some people can only express that with a blanket statement like "dumbed down".
Indeed! While the concept isn't an inherently bad one, the map markers in Skyrim just scream of sheer developer laziness. Would it *really* have been that difficult to provide adequate written directions so that players have the option of turning off map markers should they wish? To me, this just epitomises the easy-path, copy-and-paste laziness that has come to characterise Bethesda as a whole. I'm not, as such, against streamlining where it makes sense, but it has become increasingly apparent that Bethesda (at least the Softworks/Zenimax end of things) have no real interest in creating complex, story rich RPGs that pay attention to detail and draw players into their world without relying on shiny tricks and gimmicks.
The only reasonable defence I can come up with on the devs' part, is that in the older games like Morrowind, they didn't have voiced dialogue, which means if they decided later on to change the location of a quest target for some reason, or change the layout of that location, it was easy to go back and edit the dialogue to reflect those changes (although they clearly forgot to do that in a couple of rare instances). I remember Chris Avellone in an interview once citing this as an advantage of non-voiced dialogue, because it allows you to be more flexible with the design process.
Only having it accessible via the map maybe decent journal description would be a good idea with minimal effort on anyone beyond a writer. I think the main reason this has been implemented with such priority is due to the focus on the radiant quest system making it a necessity.....plus many fallout 4 quests are so dull with minimal context (MMO style) that they are easily mistaken for radiant quests thus needing the marker.(I think joseph anderson and the shoddy cast made great points on the topic if you watch their vids) Bethesda's design philosophy is going to be soooo shit in the future given their progression of design with choices to create trivial skin and items reminiscent of micro transactions for easy EA or Ubisoft style of cash rather than support/fund real quality fan made dlc like Perma, Enderal,Falskar or frostfall (lack of investment into narrative focused quests throughout fallout 4 is also a issue....seriously I know I bitch about it too much but I cannot recall the premise of more than 5 quests in 140 hours but can recall how fun the weapon recoil and settlements were, its quantity over quality in a nutshell and a major step down from my memory of many New Vegas/skyrim quests) th-cam.com/video/IknbeS0JpMc/w-d-xo.html
The strangest part of Skyrim is there is another 'Quest Marker', An Illusion spell called 'Clairvoyance' and its made completely useless due to Quest Markers
Well I used it a few times, but it's more like "ok I have no relevant information on how to actually complete this quest, and the only way I have is to follow the marker, and the marker shows me something behind this wall... that's not helpful". So yeah the only time I used it was when the map markers failed to even do their job. Also I used it when I got it because it was my first illusion spell and it felt cool to use =p
Clairvoyance does have some easter eggs though, like you can, for example, use it on one of the first dark brotherhood quest to figure out which of the three captives is the one who is targeted with a contract.
I think they intended it to be a core part of the game, but then they just made it a spell. I think of it like a leftover from the development process.
Hello? Yes hello. So why does a person goes all the way to the Creation Kit to remove all the changes? Maybe you hate one feature. Or maybe you have a problem with some changes. But with all of them? Maybe the problem is you.
Well, if we're talking excessively precise mapmarkers, an Immersive HUD will not help. Sure, it'll hide the marker, but the necessary description of its location will still not be a part of the game - Devs never bothered with that; no reason to.
It's not about map markers, but I think the same can be said about fast travel. I think dawnguard is a really good exemple of this. The DLC have you go through the whole map multiple times, and it's really annoying if you don't want to use fast travel to have to travel the whole world to advance your quest 1 stage ahead. And that's really because the developpers assumed everybody was using fast travel anyway so it wouldn't be a problem.
that happened in Witcher 3...there is NO WAY to leave skellige...NONE...you are trapped in there (which isnt a bad thing IMO..i would gladly stay there forever) but even if you can get there by boat no boat leaves skellige...the Wild Hunt and the White Frost won because of immersion
"The DLC have you go through the wall map multiple times" I really don't understand what it is you're saying here. Are you referring to the Forgotten Vale? If so you can complete that whole place without ever leaving. My last playthrough was no fast travel and I had 0 issues with Dawnguard.
he is saying that the devs made the dlc thinking that EVERYONE will fast travel or use carriages (alternative fast travel) so if you are not doing these...immersion...basically going on foot or by horse you will have to go through the entire skyrim several times ...which is stupid.... 1) to find serena and go to her castle and back to fort dawnguard.. 2) to recruit help (the dwemer expert) and back to fort danwguard 3) to find the elder scroll from her mother and back to the fort 4) to the forgotten vale and back to the fort... 5) to get to the vampire castle to kill them..... Yeahhhhhh.....that's quite a lot of running/ridding considering each mission is going from one side of the map to the extreme other... As i also said to my comment right above your's...if you are not fast traveling in witcher 3...you are stuck on skellige because CDPR assumed everyone is fast traveling..
erm... "whole"... My bad. Going to edit that. And really look at where the quest takes you and you'll realize the amount of travel you have to do is quite insane compared to other questlines. Even taking the main quest into account you tend to never have to travel from one end of the map to the complete opposite, except maybe after getting esbern. (also you do climb that mountain a lot... fuck you greybeards!) I don't mind having to travel far away, sometimes, but when you are trying to focus on a questline and every phase of the questline is on opposite end of the map... that tends to be annoying quite fast.
Exactly!!! A lot of people complained (sometimes justifiably, sometimes not) about the journal directions in Morrowind. Bethesda, ultimately, instead of *improving* directions, simply added map markers, in Skyrim often abandoning directions altogether. Presumably, because adopting map markers required considerably less effort. And yes, while I consider myself more of an "old school gamer" I find the "hardcore" negative attitude toward "casuals" (particularly found at places like RPG Codex) to be utterly obnoxious, for many reasons.
I liked directions in Morrowind, I mean sure, I am not going to lie, sometimes I wanted to slam my head into the desk because I couldn't find the damn locations because of unclear directions, or when someone wrote wrong directions completly. But what I liked about it was that it felt realistic, people can give you vague or simply wrong information, I loved it and hated it at the same time
Indeed. Another thing I appreciate about the Morrowind directions is that while they can sometimes be very frustrating, you usually end up discovering all kinds of interesting things while trying to reach your destination.
Either that, or he was around in the late 80s/early 90s. Eye of the Beholder and Dungeon Master are two mapless games that come to mind. Some games did have maps, but they were packaged with the game on this lovely cloth material. Oh, those were the days...
Final Fantasy 14 does this with some quests, instead of a point on a map, they give you a circle where the quest objective is somewhere unspecified within that radius. This can lead to sneaky situations where the objective is right on the edge of the circle in a place you at first assume isn't in that area.
Agreed, though it would probably mean a lot more work as they would have to incorporate more detail into the world to make sure you can find your objectives using contextual information in the quest descriotion/npc dialogue when you get to the general area. I think it helps the game play, but I suspect developers prefer the ease of just slapping a marker on it.
Certain quests in the Batman: Arkham do it like that. Like looking for assassination victims in City or mines in Knight. Those games aren’t really old at all, so good maps aren’t a lost art.
Map markers kind of defeat the point of an open world game. Maybe if you ask quest-givers for specific locations after getting a quest it makes sense to mark it on your map, but otherwise it would be more fun to just not. Imagine if you got a quest to hunt down books in Solitude, and instead of marking every single book, you would have to visit the most likely buildings to have books in. Imagine if, while tracking giants or something, you have to travel to the town it destroyed, ask around to find out which direction it went, then go that way until you either saw it, found more destroyed areas, or even find tracks that they automatically leave! Maybe tracks could be left by every animal and person on dirt, but fade after either a day or whenever it rains? It could be so much better!
To be honest a bit of help in certain quests in Morrowind would have been handy. Hours I lost wandering around those bloody ashen wastes looking for a particular tomb.
Right, having some options to help out are not a bad thing in my opinion. Just give the player the choice. But more importantly, don't give a map marker as a fix for 'bad directions' and then remove ALL directions :)
B-But Gopher, that would mean putting development time and care into the writing of our Quests and dialogue! How can we do that if we're so busy making sure that the next batch of Creation Club DLC is properly tested by our amazing QA tem?
I like having map markers, because in games, I like to feel like the map is an actual map that my character uses and that they might be marking things down on it and other people do too, when they say "here, i'll mark it on your map"
I am 100% in agreement with this. I have no problem whatsoever with quest-markers in games, I have a problem with the fact that is now impossible to play entirely without them. If they combined Morrowind's written directions with Skyrim's magic GPS, then the insipid argument that "if you don't like quest-markers, you can just turn them off" would actually have some weight.
I think you're missing my point a little, friend. I, personally, do not find vague directions annoying, I find them wonderful. Game developers these days insist on constantly giving us "massive open worlds" to explore, but they /never/ allow us to get a little lost. In a game like Morrowind, when an NPC gives me an objective clear on the other side of the map based on only a vague area, I rejoice. Because it means getting there will be just as much an adventure as whatever actually find there. Almost as if the open world itself /is/ the adventure, rather than a needlessly elaborate loading screen between dungeon crawls. And hey, if I truly get frustrated, we also live in the age of the internet now. Some guide, wiki, or walkthrough will have the exact location and how to find it. However, since some people out there find what I just described frustrating. The point is that it's very subjective from player to player, and game devs are now being lazy and only counting on one kind of player showing up. Personally, if they did start giving written directions again alongside the optional quest-markers, your proposed hybrid system wouldn't be difficult to accomplish with a mod or two. It's basically how I have Skyrim and The Witcher 3 set up right now: map markers only on the compass/minimap.
I'll only use it when physically stuck and unable to move, as fast travel isn't always available, combat, inside etc. And I have a no fast travel rule :)
Thank Talos for fast travel. All the many times I've gotten myself stuck in some messed up place. Sucks when it happens in a dungeon or cave because there is no fast travel from there. Load last save.
Personally I don't mind map markers, if a game has them i'll usually use them. But I do think developers are using them as a reason to have worse level design. I've noticed that recently playing with markers off has gotten a lot more annoying because the devs don't really give you any environmental clues as to where you are meant to be going :/
I don't like the idea that games are being "dumbed down" but I certainly think some games (and mainstream games are particularly vulnerable to this) are actually watered down. Compare Skyrim to Oblivion.
cracktober I don't mean all map markers I mean quest like the one in Fallout 4 where you should find crafting items and they hive you map markers for that.
"toivo vuorinen but would you know where to go on a big map such as Skyrim if an NPC tells you: I lost it in a cave north of here." That is exactly the problem : bad written directions. It should say something like, in the cave north of here just after the crossroad to the east of the river ... or something (like in Morrowind).
but without map markers how would Preston mark on your map the settlement that needs your help? are you saying you don't want Preston telling you where to go?!
that was the nice thing about Morrowind... it was immersive. I miss the mark and recall, divine intervention spells, and the journal mechanic(for the reasons you mentioned, had to actually figure stuff out and it provided the necessary information to do so). Sure those spells were still fast travel, but it had a proper in game reason for existing. I kind of have a love/hate relationship with fast travel. On one hand I get from place to place quickly, on the other I miss out on scripted events/dialog that i'd otherwise get to experience. I guess this is why I use the Touring Carrages mod for Skyrim... yes, i'm still going from point A to point B in a fast travely way, but i'm at least not skipping the trip entirely, discovering things along the way as the driver casually comments on the area we're passing through. As a bit of a bonus it also creates an excuse to get up and move around a bit, because the trip depending on where i'm headed, could be a long one.
15:21 Pretty much, what I liked about Morrowind when I briefly played it. The NPCs giving you directions to the areas that they're directing you to and I have no clue why that was dropped as that whole thing makes sense. A person telling you to go somewhere will likely tell you how to get there especially if you ask. However, don't mind the quest markers themselves and only despise them how they tend to be used. As a way of directing the player somewhere without the need of some dialogue telling you to go there. Willing to look past it if the character says something like 'Here, let me mark that on your map' as... well... that's passable.
Using MMOs as an example, back in the Everquest days and even early Lord of the Rings Online days, there was NO quest location markers showing you were to go. But the quests were highly detailed, giving you a strong visual of what direction to head and what to look for. Heck, early EQ didn't even have MAPS! You have to memorize the zone yourself, remember landmarks and various points of interest. The compass was a skill that you used to tell you what direction you believed you where facing. It was amazing. Now, quests are brief, lazy and uninspired ... everything is highlighted in bright colors on a map and all sense of exploration is utterly gone.
It has been used to great effect by modders though a good example is in The Grey Cowl of Nocturnal where you use it to cross a fiery pit by walking along an invisible walkway
The quest markers and the journal in Skyrim feal like a product oft MMORPGs. Where most players only want to know what to kill and where. So a big fat "!" or similar quest markers are apreciated. A real journal with the complete history oft the quest would have been much more helpful for people who play for the story. Icertainly would habe loved it and I hope it will be back in the next Elderscrolls game. An Option to only show questmarkers in the worldmap would be nice. I have all quest markers active, all the time. People watching me play Skyrim always wonder how I can find anything. The thing is I don't really use them. They are just active so I can see in the world map if there is anything interesting near me. At the same time, I like the compass to know which direction i'm facing, without opening the world map.
Sometimes in Skyrim, I wonder how I got to a certain stage in a quest or forgot certain things NPCs say and attempt to view it in the journal like a lot of other RPGs and then realize- oh- its Skyrim- the journal is absolute garbage for that. There was another game I was playing- Sherlock Holmes Crimes and Punishments- definitely a different game, but the journal was a lifesaver in that- since each case was more than an hour long of continually collecting evidence, some of which were dead ends, it was immensely helpful to organize every conversation you had and all the things that you noticed into a nice chart.
Maybe if it was only on the map screen I'd be ok with it, but let's look at Morrowind. There were atleast 3 quests that gave you the wrong directions, and many of the directions were either overly simplified or much too broad in a way that it could cause you to be searching much too long.
GiRayne, that to me is a good example of realism getting in the way of fun. But a good RPG caters to those like both you and me - and other types of people. That is where, for even all the valid complaints against Bethesda games, I think they overall do very well with The Elder Scrolls. All TES games cater very well to different playstyles. I cannot comment on Fallout as I've never played the series.
GiRayne heres the key phrase, *you* kinda loved that. Other people could get frustrated and, since the internet is a thing now, give in after hours of searching and look up the location online. Now I know, you'll say that it takes self control to stop yourself going online to find out where to go, or what to do. But it should be the games job to tell you where to go properly, without having to do some out of game research. Thats not to say that map markers are always the answer though. I myself have a great time using treasure maps in ESO without going on UESP to see where the treasure is.
In real life if someone gave me the wrong/vague directions then I would ask someone else for directions. Morrowind does not let you do this so I don't consider it realistic.
Something to also factor in when talking directions in morrowind is that even though IT had issues, considering everything we can fit into the environments of games now it would be much easier to give clear concise directions with actually distinct markers that fit into the world more organically without feeling too forced. Of course I'm certainly not against map markers or anything myself, but I just thought it was worth bringing up :3
GiRayne Just a note about Skyrim. You can keep all quest markers inactive. A lot of you people are mixing quest markers with map markers. Map markers are fine. Real maps have map markers like dots for cities & stars for capitals & lines that separate areas. You guys are really complaining about quest markers & even as I said before, those can be turned off.
Distant Memories quest from TESV. You are told that the ship wrecked "somewhere" on the north-eastern coast of Skyrim. In Morrowind you would have to search the whole coast. In Skyrim you are given the extact location. THAT IS WRONG. In Oblivion you had a Journal and it somewhat didn't feel that akward. Nowdays it's just "Well I don't know where it is but here, the map will magically show you where to go".
Jimmy Kitkat Because that's not how an RPG should work. Lazy design for lazy ppl. I disagree with Gopher, it was made like that because people today feel that the should be given a reward for zero effort.
Dude You miss the point, those NPC's during their dialog say that they don't know the location yet they give you the "EXACT" spot. If you can't understand what an adventure should look like then there is no point is this conversation. If I wanted to go "kill" something I would pick up a different game, a linear action one.
Now you're just being rude. What I said is the truth. If I hurt anyones feelings it just means I hit the spot.. and I know I did because of what you just said. What's the point of finding hidden lost treasure when you know where it is. It's so bizzare. I can't imagine history's greates explorers facing the same problem you do. This is an RPG (role playing game) so you should feel like an real explorer, adventurer.. not a guy with GPS or Google Maps.
Pretty much just repeating what gopher said, but I feel it's an issue not because those elements exist but because you're kind of forced to use those elements in the sense that the developers designed the game in a non-immersive way to work with a non-immersive system. Like with skyrim, it's a nightmare to play without quest markers because you literally lack sufficient information to find things on your own. A lot of quests also send you to the opposite ends of the map because it's easier to just arbitrarily place shit everywhere and fast travel to it than design quests that fit the game world. A possible compromise would be to have both detailed instructions and quest markers, but reward following the manual instructions of a quest with more content. An example would be having a marker towards the general goal of the quest but have additional unmarked details from the remarks of the NPC's you talk to that can lead to changing the outcome of a quest or lead to special rewards. The philosophy of this compromise is it sort of manifests the interests of the individual - the end user who enjoys hacking and slashing can skip around to the important parts with markers/fast travel but reward exploring the unbeaten path with interesting characters, dialogue, etc. that are less crucial to the "skyrim player"'s experience I guess you could call it. Then again I'm not a game designer and this is probably contrived as hell.
Hi Gopher, There's a mod called "Take Notes" Might help with the whole handwritten journal argument in the video. Also, better quest objectives mod, which expands on the journal entries. A combination of both mods, should be able to help satisfy these arguments on the old school vs new school way of playing. For the record, the way I play skyrim is greatly influenced by the same factors you just mentioned. I use road signs, no fast travel and the only thing closest to map markers I use (cause i play a battlemage) is the clairvoyance spell... mainly used as an auxiliary purpose.
I think you might enjoy the upcoming Kingdom Come: Deliverance. (Feb 2018) There are map markers, but many are 'regional' which guide you to a search area and then 'lock' to a fixed 'hunt around here' mode while you are inside the region, and revert to pointing to the region if you leave. Some quests are given without map markers, but with (more or less) detailed verbal directions spoken in dialogue (and copied to the player journal), others have a more formal - "this is the location you should go to", marked onto the map and with a sufficient verbal description to turn the correct way as you get close. Still early days, and my opinion formed from ~150 hours in the old (march 2016) beta, plus the more 'current state' presentations and livestreams from this season's gameshows, but I am very hopeful for the final product. Lots of different ways of approaching quests - and failure as a 'success state' which permits alternative routes to be sought for most of the major quests.
I think the first Dishonored was good example of optional map markers. NPCs give enough exposition on where your objectives should be, the Heart gave you directions to valuable resources, and there are often local maps and signposts to help guide you through a level. Plus all the notes you pick up throughout the game often lead you to alternate paths or treasure. It's different in scale compared to an open-world like Skyrim but the experience was vastly different when I played with no-HUD elements. My first playthrough felt heavily guided with all the quest markers and objective pop-ups, but when I removed the HUD for the Daud DLCs I felt like I was interacting with the world on a greater level and found myself getting familiar with the environment rather than relying on a magic pointer. A great example is when Daud infiltrates the Brigmore Witches' manor. Before the mission starts, you can choose receive valuable intel from one of the enemies in the level but the only clue you're given about her identity is that she can be found in the behind the manor and is wearing red coat. She patrols the area like any other regular enemy so it's up to you to find her contact her safely. If the HUD was on, the moment would've probably been lack luster as it would just point me to her location.
I see the removal of Skills and just the inclusion of Perks as Dumbing Down. See in older Fallout's if you had a design in mind, you could work toward that gameplay right from the start. Want to be a stealthy thief, put your points into Sneak and buff it up. Wanna be someone that solves someone through wits and smarts, go with speech and science. Yes it does lead to homogenization when you get more skills and soon max every skill, but that usually happens near the end of the game where you have already gone through many harrowing experiences. I go to the Seirra Madre and my character decides he needs to figure out some survival skills while there and to keep himself safe in the future in case he ever gets stuck in this mess again. He decides to learn more about Energy Weapons because they seem to be plenty in Big MT. Fallout 4 however, only gives you perks, and only 1 perk per level, worse, higher level beyond level 1 of a perk requires a certain amount of levels to get. So instead of being a stealth master at the start of the game, you have to take 1 point in stealth, then wait 10 levels to get the next, and only feel competent in stealth when Im level 30. Same with the other skills. Why the hell would I wait to put training into lockpicking when I'm looking for supplies to save my life? In fact though, there was a way to make this a lore reason, make the character a synth an advanced synth at that, he can't learn skills naturally, instead when he levels up, he is allowed to open up partitions in his memory that governs the skills he has. It's all just a test by the institute to see if synths actually can think for themselves and be like humans.
In some games it does work in some games it won't. Like i was playing vampire the masquerade and that game would not be as fun when you have quests markers. Because the investigation is a big part of the fun at least for me. there are also games that in my eye use map markers terrible or just don't let the player find something for them self. Like the witcher 3 were horse riding is almost automated, everything is marked on your map and eagle vision. I kinda like how BDS does map markers. There games are focused on exploration and when you look at your bar and see a unknown location why not check it out.
There are 2 things I tell people not to do ...1. Don't tell me how to live my life ... 2.Don't tell me how to enjoy MY gameplay ...it's that easy. It's fine to have a personal opinion about a game. However, no one should tell another person how THEY should enjoy THEIR game. So, if I like map markers, especially on a game with a map as big as Skyrim, then I expect people to respect the way I LIKE TO PLAY MY GAME and I will respect the way they like to play THEIR game. End of subject. Game makers usually put in options for UI tweaks to be able to turn on and off certain aspects of the UI. If they don't then mod the parts out you don't like. Of course this is usually only an option for PC gamers. As far as people who play on console I have no reccomendations as they are not always able to be modded and I don't play consoles. But really just respecting others is all it's about.
You are missing the point entirely, the fact of the matter is we can no longer play games how we want due to things like the map markers becoming so popular the "game makers" give you a map marker and remove the immersive directions that a large section of their fan base love. Nobody is saying remove them entirely but when playing most of the role playing games in today's market simply turning off map markers and you will never find the objective because the developers gave no instructions on how to get there without following said map markers. Play the damn games the way YOU want to, but at least help us get back to a time where we can actually turn the damn things off and still have a general idea on how to figure out where we are supposed to go!
But equally, don't blame him that the games don't cater for you. Why should he actively help you get what you want when for decades you've been calling him names and infering that he is stupid because he likes things that are different to you? Bed made, if you don't want to lie in it, then it's you who has to change, not him.
ok you mongoloid here is the thing, it's not just 'UI choice' we can make. they are relying on markers so they dont have to write directions. if you dont use markers you cant play the game which is what people are complaining about. But dont worry, they will never take your quest markers away. Games nowadays are made for the lowest common denominator ie dumbfucks like you
William, you don't know if IWasHere4K has ever called anyone a name in his or her life. They certainly didn't here. So maybe calm down a bit? Also, fapnyr, shut up. Not helpful.
Re: in-game notes. There's a mod for that. See "Take Notes - Journal of the Dragonborn". It doesn't automatically generate entries for each quest, but does allow for in-game manual note-taking.
D hat for DERP ..people tend to confuse dumped down for something that now makes more sense....people called dumped down skyrim for having some immortal NPC's....yeah..because having him/her die while going somewhere during a quest by a random spawn makes more sense at destroying the quest you are doing
Yeah but why can't I kill the Jarls? What about NPCs that don't leave a safe cell? What about NPCs of factions that I oppose? What about NPCs that will follow me to that quest location? Just because there's one dumb comment doesn't mean that there is no valid reason for being against half the NPCs being unkillable. I mean you could even at least make them protected so only the player can kill them, which there is no reason not to allow this for every NPC that is essential. There's no reason for immortal NPCs, it's dumbing it down because the dev couldn't find a way to have the game continue on with that dead NPC.
because it takes less money to make them immortal than carefully ID who is who and by whom he can die...addressing a situation doesn't mean you fixed it...it still sucks for the reasons you just told..but its better than fucking everyone because a random spawn on a random situation end up killing the npc who had to go somewhere in order to meet you...specially in a game that randomness is its key selling point when free-roaming around
The solution to that problem is "protected" NPC's, which is actually part of the Bethesda games. There should not be any "essential" NPCs. You should be able to kill anyone you want, but only the player can kill the important ones. It should also give you a message like in Morrowind.
When I turned the compass off in my recent Skyrim play through, I would end up lost...a lot, but that is not necessarily a bad thing. I get lost in real life and there are not Giant Flags hovering over my destination. I would use the map more often to check my location and if I was heading on the right path. Is it annoying? Yes. Is it time consuming? Yes. Is it more realistic? Yes and that actually makes it more enjoyable. I love the idea of people marking the location on your map, or maybe asking strangers for directions on the road and having them point you in the right direction, even the clairvoyance spell is okay for certain role plays. These could be used instead of the magical arrow that appears. Of course this is my opinion.
I wonder if they will start slowly stripping away moddability in the next games (maybe start by not allowing a script extender) in order to encourage people to do micro-transactions for more content. If it happens slowly and on new games that didn't already have mods there wouldn't be the same uproar as if they just banned modding and shut down the nexus.
The good thing is that is unlikely due to the fact that Bethesda has a long track record of bucking industry trends and doing its own thing. In fact they set new trends more often than they follow them. For example, a lot of games took inspiration of Skyrim.
Divayth Fyr, that won't happen. The CC actually relies on the existence of free mods. This is evident in the fact that the application process for becoming a CC freelancer requires you to point to a mod or mods you made that they will use to judge if they want you making official content for them.
In ESO there are "pinkiller" interface addons that remove map markers from the gameworld but leaves them on the map. It's perfect. I only look when necessary, and try to do it quickly, so I don't have the feeling that I'm playing a "run to the arrow" game.
Some people are just mean, and they feel they should just spread their mean-ness around, Why is ANYONE telling you how to play YOUR game, that's like trying to tell you how you should take care of your kids or take a shower, or cook, etc, Games are personal, and if one guy likes to play on easy, more power to him, and if others like nightmare difficulty there is NO difference between these people , because its PERSONAL, sheesh, why can't people just deal with the way OTHER people play games, if you don't like it, go somewhere else.
Because you're not doing it how they want, so you're wrong. That's how I see those people anyways. Or the bigshot 'you do it like x' people with the shows and all, even though they don't know who the fuck you are.
True, the biggest reason I watch Gopher is for his commentary, not so much for the game, I subed way back when he had just started Steve-Gro-Fur, (I think that's his char. name), so it doesn't really matter how he plays any game, its because hes funny, entertaining and I like his play style, (not because he plays it 'correctly') he plays it like Gopher, and that's the correct way for Him, he just happens to like the most difficult settings possible to play his games, he could play it on easy and use all the map markers he wants, and I'd still watch him, it should be about the person not the game.
I understand what he was talking about and its true that most games lately have kind of lost the discovery element in their games and feel its necessary to hold your hand and act as if gammers are dumb, what I was talking about is the dumbass who commented on his vid and told him he was doing it wrong, for some reason that shit pisses me off, as if they had a say in how he runs HIS channel, constructive criticism I can understand, but you don't dare tell an other person how to play their games on their channel, suggestions, sure, advice, no problem, but to flat out tell him he's wrong, NO.
Its quit obvious you haven't watched many vids from Gopher, or even a subscriber, if you are then you need to go somewhere else, if you don't like his commentary, or you don't like the way he runs his channel then leave, no ones keeping you here, why do you stick around? what do you do all day? click on vids and complain? your doing now what your condemning Gopher for. Gophers channel and all other channels are not a democracy, its his channel, he runs it his way, I have seen him respond to suggestion before, many times, there's a difference between constructive criticism and and complaining because he didn't do something the way YOU thought he should, just as your doing now. "He complains too much" if your going to offer 'constructive' criticism then do, don't sit around and start complaining to his fans how much he complains. and by the way, your opinion is not needed.
I've thought about this subject a lot, and come to a pretty definitive conclusion; generalized markers that can be refined through dialogue, finding notes/clues, etc. ie. an 'area' marker that denotes the general area a quest objective is located at. Talk to a couple people/the right person and you can tighten that marker to a more specific area; pass a speech check of some kind and perhaps you can whittle it down to a specific marker. And yeah, an actual journal is something that would be immensely helpful one way or another, and could even be used in some interesting ways to supplement spoken dialogue - a radiant quest might just have the NPC say 'go take care of those bandits for me' while the journal could provide more detailed information.
Say you work in a kitchen. It's a 12 hour a day job in hot, loud environment where you spend all or almost all of your day on your feet. You have to get there by 8, and you get back by eight. You've got maybe 2 hours after you get home before you need to go to sleep. You've got a wife and kids. Let's be honest. You've going to spend some time with the kids, and some time with the wife. So now you've got about half an hour. You want to play an RPG, so you put one in, boot it up, and get a quest. Closest place to your destination is a military camp 45 minutes away, so you fast travel there, walk the 15 minutes to your destination, enter, spend the next 15 minutes in a dungeon crawl, and then you can't find what you went there for and you need to be in bed in the next 5 minutes. You turn on the map markers, and find it. All in time for bed. It's like a curb cut. And that's not so bad.
I am not sure exactly what that has to do with what I said :) I never once suggested map markers should be removed, just that adding them does not mean dialogue and good journal entries should be removed.
I'm not opposed to people making RPGs that cater to the "stressed unfocused line cook with no spare time" demographic. But the core appeal of The Elder Scrolls is entirely incompatible with that sort of "turn off your brain, have a beer, kill some monsters" approach. You can't make an Elder Scrolls game for sleepy cooks without compromising what makes these games artistically/aesthetically/narratively valuable in the first place. Design the game for its core qualities first, then add some sleepy cook convenience features (like map markers to complement written/spoken directions) where possible, sure. But don't construct your design around that demographic and expect to _also_ make an immersive role-playing game.
There is a reason why Journal+Map Makers other than "just a more effort by developer". That is because the answer to this problem may be that it is more time-efficient is "make quests shorter" and have all of the work done for free by simply reorganizing the quests rather than working.
You can play in Skyrim without journal at all. Why? Because almost all quests in this game are simple. "Go and kill someone, go, find and bring me something". Why quests in Skyrim are simple? Because developers are lazy. Why they are lazy? Because they are famous as developers of good games. They are sitting on their thrones idly. They know that players will buy the product. This fact alone is making them think that they can get away with their laziness. In some sense they are right. Because the new generation of players doesn't know any better. Old generation of gamers will buy their game too (based on the previous achievements), they will vomit later, but money already will be spent.
Dude you just described ALL RPG game quest. “Kill this bandit leader” “Find this treasure in this location” “Kill this bag bad” “Find this person” “Save this person” Stop this purist old school “real RPG” bullshit cause at the end of the day that’s basically how things work
"at the end of the day that’s basically how things work" NOW. What about other quests? Complete the quests "by using the right words", "by being attentive", "by remembering something", "by using your intuition". It is the RPG game, you should be creative. If variety of quests is reduced only to killings and findings it is slashers, it is Diablo-style games, but not RPG.
Михаил Сергеевич Except you described pretty much all of Morrowind's quests. The only difference is that in Morrowind, you could maybe get an item in two different ways, which is the important part you didn't mention, making your comment basically useless for a discussion
Thanks for the video Gopher, I really see where you are coming from. I remember in World of Warcraft before the Cataclysm expansion came out, players were expected to read dialogue and quest journals to figure out how to complete quests. However in Cataclysm on-wards the devs added in Map markers for all quests; all the dialogue and journals aren't written out anymore to explain the quests and they expect you to use the markers. Now they even have voiced dialogue but I feel that voice adds to immersion personally. Just goes to show you it's the entire industry's focus now.
I am very happy with Map Markers etc., because my Orientation is absolutely TERRIBLE! And i would be very frustrated, if i didn't had my back up Map MArkers, to look, if i am totally lost...agaiN! XD I don't know what is the Prob with Markers...you can turn it down, if you're too cool for them. lol I don't see what is the argue about that issue. Nowadays there are options to personalize the Game like you want to play it. Me, personaly, trys to avoid Markers, if i don't really need them, but well, without them i would be lost xD
Well English is not my tongue, so "sorry" xD And if you think People are dump because they use Emojis, then you are a very, very limited Person LOL But have a nice day, and get offensive about stupid stuff XD
Aleksi134 Did you at least listen to the first 2 minutes of the video? You speak exactly like the true "dumb" of which Gopher speaks ... Writing bad English does not necessarily mean being an idiot. I am myself French, and even if I write bad English, am happy to be able to share things on the channel of gopher (Without being insulted of idiot.). In addition, he gave his point of view, kindly, correctly and without animosity .. and the only thing you find to say is to treat it as "dumb" ... because it makes some mistakes? * Clap clap *
Then maybe you should play without them instead of making your navigation skills even worse? I believe I read somewhere (not sure where) that constant hud following in video games damages the part of your brain used for navigation.
Quest tracking in games like Morrowind was a nightmare... Thank the high heavens for map markers. People want to play, not spend endless hours trying to figure out where the quest is, they just want to play the quest. It's a video game & we have real lives. Gamers would absolutely rage if they had to spend time finding quests. Sure some would enjoy it but most of us with jobs & lives would have their free time thrown in the trash by removing map markers.
"people want to..." => Some people want that. I'm ok that map markers exist for them. But I actually like to try feeling like a real adventurer, asking for directions and advices, and finding things by myself. But if the developpers don't add those clues because "meh they have map markers anyway" then it's really annoying...
"most of us with jobs & lives would have their free time thrown in the trash by removing map markers." You are just as bad as the people who are against them. You should not go around insinuating that "people" and "gamers" all enjoy map markers, and that those who prefer to find their quests themselves don't have jobs and lives.
The reason Morrowind didn't need map markers was because the NPCs actually told you where you were going, in detail. Needed to get to the dwarven ruins of Arkngthand? Well, simply follow the road out of Balmora, cross the small bridge, and continue until you reach a turn just before Fort Moonmoth. Those instructions shouldn't be hard for anyone. That said, if you like map markers, more power to you. A crutch for lazy developers they may be, but I'm never opposed to giving players more choices in how they enjoy their games.
Did you even watch the entire video? Gopher specifically said that map markers should exist as well as accurate descriptions of the locations for players who do not like map markers. He doesnt want map markers removed.
"Options" is not the option. Games are made in one of the options in mind. You may get royally fucked when playing games with unconventional settings, as they were not playtested with them in mind. Play TW3 on harderst without health-bars. Most of the fights are super annoying and anticlimactic, as you often fight for way longer than you have expected, and then randomly enemy just dies. Developers most likely though about no health bar option for more immersion, and have thought that most of the people that care about it will play on easy/normal, not the hardest. Just like that, you may be fucked on turning off crucial story hints, by missing quests that in playtests were found mostly thanks to the UI stuff etc. "Just go offroad" isn't the way to go, because these mechanics are not created in the void, but create more complex systems / UX.
I would absolutely love having detailed quest journals again... the more story I have to reread, the easier it is to explain to a friend why I love a game... without directly spoiling any of it for when they play it.
The Witcher games have mini-maps. As do the TES games since Morrowind. Also, most RTS games have them, even the classics like Age of Empire or Starcraft. Not to mention every MMO ever...
TBH I've expected you defending map makers :P I'd not fight with Dumbed Down == Simplified that much, maybe on the contrary - I'd probably embrace it. Grumpy old gamer has not only existed, but pretty often was right - it is Simplification. Simplification of some processes. Some people enjoy playing D&D with hand-crafting maps based on DMs descriptions, and some use Roll20. If game picks Roll20, it deletes a part of the game that some people enjoyed. By removing fall damage, one can make open world more accessible to the players - which works great for the game like Shadow of Mordor/War, but on the other hand I cant imagine game like STALKER not-having fall damage - the exploration can be often based off the fact that fall damage exist. You need right tool for the job, and I'd suggest using the answer to the quesion "Was it Simplified or Dumbed Down" to be treated as opinion question, not the fact question, and be discussion-starter, not discussion-ender (why do you think so, what have you enjoeyed that was lost etc.) And about the entire lazy developer thing - games quite often have negative space in their mechanic - not having mechanic can be sometimes more interesting than having it, and adding every Quality of Life feature imaginable results in limited design space. For example not adding in-game compass, may lead to adding mechanic where you look for moss at the north side of rocks and trees. Maybe some people enjoy it, and by adding Quality of Life feature you may loose it - sometimes in obvious ways, but sometimes unintentionally (when you have minimap you may stop caring about NPCs giving you proper directions, what may lead to NPCs direction-giving being shallow or not playtested enough). And about Outrage culture... one may see it as evil, but other may see as the opportunity for the good indie games and ideas. While I think that hate against people who like/expect some QoL features is unreasonable, one have to agree that games are created as a whole, not as bunch of systems, and having the opinion "I dont care, as long as I can turn it off" is not fully honest/aware of how games are made.
Though they make a good point with the indie game part, people sometimes get tired of games not having what they want and so they actually make one, I personally would love if Skyrim was a bit more like D&D that's why I play with Requiem despite it's need for patches on nearly anything
You shouldn't denegrate people who enjoy different thing to you in games. There is no "lowest common denominator", there are people who like games in different ways, and RPG players of all fucking gamers should be tolerant of that, because we also want the rpg's to accomodate our, let's face it individual niche preferences. I personally like stealth and can't stand magic. But hey, people who play mages and enjoy playing mages aren't "the lowest common denominator". They are people who enjoy different things to me. I probably think what you enjoy in games is boneheaded, knuckle dragging plebian crap. But you know what, if you say you enjoy it, I am going to fight for you to have it in the game, tooth and nail, because I wrongly assume you would do the same for me.
William Jones Denigrate?! That depends on your assumption or assignment of a negative connotation to "lowest common denominator". Sorry if that feels like an insult to you. What I was attempting to say was, they build games to be accessible to everyone/anyone.
William Jones Furthermore, I would argue that it isn't denigrating to acknowledge that half of the population in the UK and US fall below an IQ 100 and that a proportion of them fall below IQ 85 and can't find their way out of their friend's garage, let alone find a quest item without a quest marker.
I don't think you understand the meaning of the word denegrate - it means "criticise unfairly", not insult. Maybe take ten minutes to restructure your reply and get back to me?
I spammed the like button at around 2:35 I must say that I find your view on this stuff totally refreshing and a lot more level-headed and thought out than a lot of people who just love to point their fingers and scream *"INJUSTIIIIIIICE I feel wronged."* or similar things that don't provide worthwhile feedback. Thank you for your level-headedness G-man xP
Well immersion is definitely important in some games. I don't mind gamey mechanics in game that don't try to be something else than games, but for something like skyrim I do expect the game not to remind me that it is in fact a game. That aside and even accepting it as a mechanic, the problem is that the mechanic shouldn't be relied on, people should be able to complete the game without using their gps.
I agree that "it shouldn't" in the sense that its not required for a game to function, but when a game does it it's something special. Take Dead Space for example. Your health and energy are on your back which you never have to take your eyes off of the center of the screen where the action is. Also in the case of Dead Space you could say it makes no sense for a health reading to be in a place where the character couldn't easily see it, but all that takes is a simple additional explanation to increase immersion further.
@OP ++ Mechanical implications are 1000 times more important that immersion ones. What is called immersive may change - players may get used to having less UI or more UI, so IMO immersion cannot be boiled down to "this is immersive, this is not". Much bigger problem is IMO the age-old developer wisdom "player will take fun out of your game", meaning that if anything you can count on player doing, is that he will be trying to win, to the point when they may make game unfun for themselves. (The given example was that XCom is about taking risk, but good players may in their pursuit of winning avoid being in risky situations to begin with, making the game more boring) When playing game I cannot play not-efficient. If I have map - I use map. If I have map markers - I follow them. If I have 3 quests - unless the game taught me otherwise I do them in the order to run the least. If the game makes me think to get through puzzles on regular basics, I'll think through puzzles. If it makes them childs-play, I will do them instantly and move on. I don't want to play "more badly" based on the assumption that "developer was wrong, I know how the game should be played". If developer doesn't want me to care about views in the game but care about minimap to get in place in time - I will do so - he is a developer after all. I'd rather play different game if I dont like this rather than trying to fix his job.
-hey Gopher there's a cave over to our right, about 500m away. -how do you know that? you can't see it from here and there's no indication on the map and no one in town pointed out to us that there is a cave over there, soo how do you know that? -this magic compass told me, soo wana check it out? -fine lets go, might be some sweet loot in it.
Your whole beginning of this video is a strawman and a false equivocation. People, like myself, who have been giving constructive criticism and valid reasons for why we dislike "dumbed down games " are not, "grumpy old man gamers," and calling us as such is just a pejorative to dismiss people you don't agree with instead of addressing good arguments. And I doupt you haven't seen them because I have. They're not hard to find. Also that's a strawman argument. Equating fair and legit criticism of a game companies design choices to elitist thinking or a superiority complex is a false equivocation and a strawman as well. Your arguments at the beginning are terrible and I can't help but think you made them soully for the drama and the views. Money must be tight or something. You have to admit, at the very least, there's a correlation between games getting easier, and increase of game sales. Also games that are more difficult and challenging tend to sell less or not get as much play time according to places like Steam. I mention this because it seems to strongly indicate that game companies "dumb down" games to make more money. So fuck all us gamers that like challenging games and supported these game companies for many years. They sold out for greed. You ask, does anything get lost when thing are stream lined, simplified, etc.? And the answer is yes. Challenge is lost. Also comparing the designs that make a game more challenging to say something like stream lining and simplifying a car design is a false equivocation as well. One make a car better and one makes a game that a ten year old could complete. And as an adult, I want games to challenge me. So if making a game that less intelligent people can play easily isn't "dumbing down, I don't know what is. Also taking what some assholes on the internet say and claiming that is the entirety of the arguments made by those who dislike "dumbing down," of their games is disengenuous and also a strawman once again. Even if now you're saying there "might," be some truth to it. It's sounds like a bit of back pedaling to me. The problem with your argument that people who want a more challenging experience can just turn off the things that make it too easy is that many of the things that make a game too easy aren't optional. You seem to be late to the party when yor say, "it's not about the players. It's about the developers." No shit. That's what we've been saying for years. Game developers dumbing down games to apeal to a bigger audience and thus sell more games. That is what the mainstream gaming industry is all about these days. Oh. And loot boxes. Finally to your final comment. Dumbing down isn't to make it easier for the players. It's to make it easier for the developers. Well I'll throw your own words back at you. "Why can't it be both?" Because I think it is both. But it's to make games easier for the players more because money is the motivation. Oh. And loot boxes.
Depending on the type of game they shouldn't replace detail. Meaning, they shouldn't replace NPCs giving vague hints or complete directions. It shouldn't replace the player having to find notes and clues. Map markers are a convenience for impatience. It detracts from a lot of detail and depth from most games. It's not a big deal that some people can only express that with a blanket statement like "dumbed down".
Took me to long to find this, I felt throughout his entire video he was debating against nothing. I'm not mad because people aren't playing a game the way i want them to, I'm disappointed companies like Bethesda will never release a true RPG like Morrowind again due to the sales of Skyrim. Skyrim - No character customisation , just choose what you look like your amazing at everything - No exploring a world, follow the markers - The world and look levelling up around you, so you never explore terrifying levels and revel in the idea of getting to a point you can go their properly. - Majority of NPC's are invincible incase you make a mistake - All story lines are the same (literally all of them are on the brink of destruction but as the chosen one i save them yay!) - Become the grand master of ancient organisations stupidly quick and ridiculously weak - Can be archmage without ever casting a spell.....
I will never forget how I was told in Morrowind to "Go up the north road past two temples and turn right after the big mountain. And if I came to the lake I went too far and should turn back".
+ethan Simply put, because consoles allowed more people to play video games by not having it be an out of the way hobby, the amount of money being made by most people (who want a straightforward experience), is affecting the way games are made to be less complex in mechanics. On the other hand games without consoles would be limited severely in their budgets. CD Projekt Red said that the Witcher 3 as it is would have never had happened if not for consoles, for example.
ethan Because consoles appeal to the lowest common denominator i.e devs dumbing down their games to appeal to a wider audience which makes them more money.
Seen what Star citizen has achieved so far? It can only do that because it's not shackled to console performance. Imagine the Fallout and elderscrolls games we could have been getting if that restriction were taken away.
I been playing alot of games lately that dont use the map marker and I can say that it has affected the way i travel thru a game, I hate to say that i depended on it to show me where to go so much when a game didnt have one I was literally confused and would get mad cause I didnt know where to go, I got lost alot easier cause i wasnt looking at the surroundings and learning the areas.
Millennial or not he does have a point, many things have been "dumbed down" for consoles simply because they lack the input devices for a wide range of functionality.
Fucking millennials. Damn those controller loving cunts god if my grandson ever picks up a controller I will personally issue a command to get him kicked out of his house.
In some cases it also breaks immersion because when your character heads of to do something he would write down the important information like where to go and also who gave him that information not like 'oh the quest updated and I magically remeber or know who to give this spoon to'
that is why I gave up on completing side quests in Skyrim, every quest was "follow the marker and kill a person or take a thing - the end" quests that looked like an interesting investigative adventures (like the quest for the dark elf in Riften, he asked you to find something out about his parents) I was like "finally good detective quest" and it just pointed me to the other side of the world to a journal (aka follow marker - take thing - the end )
I remember Madness and the Minotaur. Mine was on the Tandy Color Computer, so I don't know if it was exactly the same, but I couldn't make it past 2 to 3 rooms, so I just gave up. Not as playable as Raaka-Tu or Pyramid.
Yeah, it looks like those were 6809E processors... and if I remember right, Minotaur was in machine language, not Basic? Can't remember if it was CLOAD or CLOADM...
This makes me think about how I could make an interactive quest journal for any games I make. (I have a few ideas for games, but I'm still working on the skills for implementation). I like immersion, and I appreciate the reminder that even little things like maps will affect people's experiences with the games they play. Any way.
I agree, i find a system where you can enable a marker during a difficult quest OK. Otherwise markers should be disabled.During combat the markers above the NPC should be disabled, where you need to follow a fleeing enemy the marker should be enabled only if you are certain distance away.
Is there a Skyrim mod that has no auto-markers but a map where the player can add flags and notes? Although it would require a conversation option to all NPCs/questgivers where you could ask them to describe approximately how to find a place. That could be a good immersive mod.
Check out the Skyrim Mod "Immersive Questing"... a Morrowind style quest system. No map markers, full quest descriptions and physical directions to locate the quest location. It works great! I like having to actually think about the quests I'm doing, search for items, find locations, investigate mysteries... this is a big step in the right direction. Edit: It's old, and built for oldrim, but I use it for Skyrim SE and it works fine. I contacted the mod author, and he has no problems if anybody would like to port it/update it if anyone is up to the task. In fact, if anyone is proficient at modding, I would like to work with them in breathing some life into this mod and getting it out to the public where others can discover it. Message me if you are interested.
Preston Garvey: "Another settlement needs our help. Here I'll mark it on your map." Gopher: "No thanks, I'll spend the next 3 years roaming the Commonwealth and hoping I'll stumble upon it."
Maybe the npcs can just say "I'll mark the location on your map" and the undiscovered marker for the location on the world map will appear. The player can figure out where they need to go using the quest log.
Old school journals with somewhat detailed descriptions are awesome. Great video. :) (I still have a paper here somewhere with a small "map" from trying to navigate that labyrinth in Planscape: Torment where you get that weird mechanical companion. That was a real pain, especially cause most rooms you enter have a bunch of hostiles lol)
I'm about to start a Skyrim Special Edition playthough without using the map, compass, or map markers. I'll only use the Clairvoyance spell to guide me to places if I need it. Skyrim's journal makes me play the game with only a few active quest at a time.
I agree with you. I like having a marker on the map to tell me where to go, but NPCs don't even tell you where they're sending you many times. All we get is, "I'll mark the location on your map." I also don't like that the "journal" is just a brief synopsis and some bullet-points telling you what you need to do. Something in between Morrowind and Skyrim would be great. Make the NPCs describe what they want you to find and the location they're sending you to. Then have optional map and floating markers (which should be toggleable in the settings) to help the player get around. The way they have it in Skyrim, if you turn off the markers, you'll never find what you're looking for. They give you no information to go off of.
I'm cool with most map markers, but I really don't like when in a quest or mission about investigation and finding something and it tells you where it is just utterly confuses me. If I'm supposed to be looking for and finding something, then why tell me where it is? Doesn't that make the 'find' part of the quest pointless? If I magically already know where it is then why does the game try to tell you that your 'looking' for something?
Its all about options can I turn if off and on or can I easily remove or hide a hand holding element and I agree with you on the journal I would like to have map icons that show locations not specifics people or chest with a good journal that explains all information
I don't mind the "Marked on map" concept myself. I think it's a pretty smart way of doing it, but maybe have an option to completely disable the floating markers, and the markers on the compass for the players who want to rely on the map itself by bringing it up; or those who want to rely on the journal for directions. I know there's an option in Skyrim to disable floating markers, and I suppose you can simply deselect the quest if you don't want the markers at all, but the journal doesn't provide enough information for new players without knowledge of the quests and locations for that to be completely viable.
One thing you missed there Gopher, it is the developers making it easier for themselves, but it is also the insane deadlines we get on projects. Usually the features you see are simpler, not just to build a greater audience, but to save time. Also, the floating map markers etc. could easily be fixed by adding them to the options. I think the Witcher 3 is a great example, because they set themselves up for a massive time-constraint, but they released an update later on after the community feedback that gave users the option to turn off certain UI features they didn't want
I enjoy the minimalist way - Less hand holding more work and reward. That said I didn't enjoy the Morrowind Quest Journal. I might have been to young back then but none of my 4 characters ever finished the main story. I just got lost with the side quests. Developers shouldn't point players at an object or npc. An area and some clues will suffice. The players will work it out and feel great about doing so.
I like having options, and enjoy the choice to hide the HUD and UI. My issue is not that games have, say Map Markers, but when that is the only option. Sometimes I like it; sometimes I prefer to slip it, but I prefer to have the choice.
That what makes dark souls and bloodbourne so special to me because you explore the world you dont just run to x every cut scean. Acually looking at the detail and entering the world
Map markers make sense, because logically, if a quest giver gives you a quest, generally they're going to know the location and thus they'd be able to mark the location on your map. Quest markers are the real terrors as they kill exploration.
I don't know if my opinion will add anything to this discussion, but I still felt like putting it out there even though it might be wrong in certain areas. Developers now spend a lot of time on the actual aesthetics of maps. In a way, they are investing time into it and do not want to lose that initial investment. That being said, I want to mention how quest journals, unfortunately, take away a players eyes from the scenery and into "books" (this can be any form of reading of any length). Now let's assume there isn't actual "dumbing it down" by devs and that that change has been purposeful as to enjoy and emphasize the playing experience more than to the immersion and "lose yourself in the books" type of gaming pleasure. To resume, less time reading, more time playing (actively). The next step would be tailoring an experience for the masses, which is an impossible feat in itself given the vast diversity of the masses. Some love the reading and lore of games while prefer bashing troll heads with maces on repeat. An interesting look at this would be real-life role playing of your characters. Being a barbarian natured being might make you a little bit less "receptive" mind wise, thus the whole "*grunt* I hit with axe to fix it" situation. On the other hand we'd have savant mages that believe in the power of knowledge. Yet again, the impass is everyone is different. And it comes back to what Gopher said, if you enjoy playing X way, more power to you. Then comes modding... this is the actual tailoring of a game to suit your enjoyment. The blockade in that one: not everyone mods. It all comes down to "damned if you do, damned if you don't". It is difficult to pinpoint a cause when the factors are seemingly infinite. Last little tid bit; I personally agree with the maps for random dungeons being available from the get-go. These should be entirely explorable and a map can be made as a character progresses through that aforementioned dungeon. There "could" be a skill/ability that gives you more clarity in your mapping capabilities (e.g.: napkin map VS professionally drawn map from measured data). But that's just another solution for masking the reality of this issue. P.s.: DANG, I wrote a lot... but also noticed that deeper I went down the rabbit hole, the more open-ended thoughts I gave off.
Gopher, for immersion I can really recommend trying out playing without the player marker also. That is, when you bring up the map you don't actually see where you are located on the map, but you have to try to pinpoint your location by looking at your environment and nearby locations. It works great in Skyrim and ad a lot to the feeling of immersion and feeling "lost" in the wilderness sometimes without always knowing where you are by some gps system. Fallout can have a bit too cluttered environment to get a good overview though, but can be worth trying there also. Of course I assume you know of the mod, but Better Quest Objectives for Skyrim is also a great mod that ads more detailed quest descriptions that goes very well with playing without quest markers.
I always had a problem with the Miscellaneous quests. Specifically, I had issue with them calling it "Miscellaneous", thereby signifying these quests are inferior to the other side-quests available, and that always annoyed me: they may not be as important in the grand scheme, but I accepted them - they're just as important to me as the main quest line, else I'd be doing that right now.
I still remember the great printed maps that came with some classic games like the Bards Tale Series, back when a folded cloth map was included in the game box :)
It always bothered me how when someone tells you that a person you're looking for is in a specific town and your character immediately knows their precise location.
Things have gone down hill since Zork. Although I do remember Ultima 4 coming with a cloth map that you had to compare to the screen to work out what was going on, with the rare 'viewing gems' to help out. The floating markers, in particular, annoy me. As you said, how do you know it just happens to be on that guy, or in that chest...
Map markers I have no problem with, as Gopher says, it makes sense that if someone gives you a quest rather than give you elaborate directions they'll show you on the map and I only see them when I open my map to find the way. As for the floating markers, I prefer having them turned off personally and only refer to local map markers when I really can't find what I'm looking for.
I just finished a replay of Ultima 7: The Black Gate and Ultima 7 Part II: Serpent Isle. Those games are no joke. They blew me away when I was a teenager and they still do 23 years later. Unless you find a map--an actual in-game map--you can't pull it up on the screen. Unless you have a sextant, you can see where on the map you are. Fast travel is not some meta function but is only possible by in-game means and it's far more limited (unless you find the magic carpet in Ultima 7 then you don't really need fast travel at all ;). Those games are super challenging and the writing is awesome. I know that Todd Howard was a big Ultima 7 fan, but since Morrowind you would never know it. It's hard to be immersed when the dialogue and journal system is built around having the map markers and fast-travel. NPC's don't give meaningful directions because the developers know there are map markers. The landscapes are bland because they know most people are going to fast-travel right over them. Compare the vanilla landscapes of Morrowind where fast-travel was limited to Oblivion where it was far easier.
Honestly, if I don't have something pointing me the right way in a game I just end up wandering in circles with no clear idea of where I'm going. And I know some people simply see this as a challenge, but to me it's just plain frustrating, having a fairly shoddy memory and a poor sense of direction I can end up lost for just about forever with no option but to retrace my steps if I can and find my way back to where I started so I can try another direction. So for me, map markers are pretty vital to making my game a lot less frustrating then it needs to be.
Also going for fast travel, I feel that the problem becomes even bigger given that some RPGs, like Skyrim, absolutely bombard you with quests. That way, singular objectives lose a certain feeling of importance, and given information becomes scattered and confused. Add that to the fact that some quests require you to go completely across the huge map, and you have players leaving quests for later, forgetting them, and they lose their importance. That way, it's commonplace to open your map and randomly come across this one mission you don't even know who gave you and where until you read some sort of summary, but you know that doing it will reward you so you just go there anyway. If you ask me, it's the definition of "bigger =/= better", and one of the faults of people expecting massive games when they don't really have to be.
Great video. Agree 100%. I don't dislike map markers as a concept whatsoever (would've loved some back in Daggerfall, good grief), but I DO dislike developers using them as a lazy shorthand instead of writing their quests properly.
Map markers shouldn't replace NPCs giving vague hints or complete directions. It shouldn't replace the player having to find notes and clues. Map markers are a fine option. But when solely used by the Devs it detracts from a lot of detail and depth from most games. It's not a big deal that some people can only express that with a blanket statement like "dumbed down".
Indeed! While the concept isn't an inherently bad one, the map markers in Skyrim just scream of sheer developer laziness. Would it *really* have been that difficult to provide adequate written directions so that players have the option of turning off map markers should they wish? To me, this just epitomises the easy-path, copy-and-paste laziness that has come to characterise Bethesda as a whole. I'm not, as such, against streamlining where it makes sense, but it has become increasingly apparent that Bethesda (at least the Softworks/Zenimax end of things) have no real interest in creating complex, story rich RPGs that pay attention to detail and draw players into their world without relying on shiny tricks and gimmicks.
I see them as convenient thing / time saver (same with fast travel) but a more immersive way would be nice aswell
The only reasonable defence I can come up with on the devs' part, is that in the older games like Morrowind, they didn't have voiced dialogue, which means if they decided later on to change the location of a quest target for some reason, or change the layout of that location, it was easy to go back and edit the dialogue to reflect those changes (although they clearly forgot to do that in a couple of rare instances). I remember Chris Avellone in an interview once citing this as an advantage of non-voiced dialogue, because it allows you to be more flexible with the design process.
Only having it accessible via the map maybe decent journal description would be a good idea with minimal effort on anyone beyond a writer.
I think the main reason this has been implemented with such priority is due to the focus on the radiant quest system making it a necessity.....plus many fallout 4 quests are so dull with minimal context (MMO style) that they are easily mistaken for radiant quests thus needing the marker.(I think joseph anderson and the shoddy cast made great points on the topic if you watch their vids)
Bethesda's design philosophy is going to be soooo shit in the future given their progression of design with choices to create trivial skin and items reminiscent of micro transactions for easy EA or Ubisoft style of cash rather than support/fund real quality fan made dlc like Perma, Enderal,Falskar or frostfall (lack of investment into narrative focused quests throughout fallout 4 is also a issue....seriously I know I bitch about it too much but I cannot recall the premise of more than 5 quests in 140 hours but can recall how fun the weapon recoil and settlements were, its quantity over quality in a nutshell and a major step down from my memory of many New Vegas/skyrim quests)
th-cam.com/video/IknbeS0JpMc/w-d-xo.html
The strangest part of Skyrim is there is another 'Quest Marker', An Illusion spell called 'Clairvoyance' and its made completely useless due to Quest Markers
Well I used it a few times, but it's more like "ok I have no relevant information on how to actually complete this quest, and the only way I have is to follow the marker, and the marker shows me something behind this wall... that's not helpful". So yeah the only time I used it was when the map markers failed to even do their job.
Also I used it when I got it because it was my first illusion spell and it felt cool to use =p
Clairvoyance does have some easter eggs though, like you can, for example, use it on one of the first dark brotherhood quest to figure out which of the three captives is the one who is targeted with a contract.
I think they intended it to be a core part of the game, but then they just made it a spell.
I think of it like a leftover from the development process.
+Filip SuperEddyn Clairvoyance just picks one of the targets at random IIRC.
+AGiantPie Huh, reading the wikia that might actually be true... I guess it's just pure chance that I always get the khajiit...
Good thing there's this one mod called Immersive HUD.... :D
Shameless
Hello? Yes hello. So why does a person goes all the way to the Creation Kit to remove all the changes? Maybe you hate one feature. Or maybe you have a problem with some changes. But with all of them? Maybe the problem is you.
Shame the game is totally built around map markers and quick travel.
Well, if we're talking excessively precise mapmarkers, an Immersive HUD will not help. Sure, it'll hide the marker, but the necessary description of its location will still not be a part of the game - Devs never bothered with that; no reason to.
Better Quest Objectives....
It's not about map markers, but I think the same can be said about fast travel. I think dawnguard is a really good exemple of this. The DLC have you go through the whole map multiple times, and it's really annoying if you don't want to use fast travel to have to travel the whole world to advance your quest 1 stage ahead. And that's really because the developpers assumed everybody was using fast travel anyway so it wouldn't be a problem.
Laezar
Solution:
1) Join Companions and become a werewolf
2) Get the Ring of Hircine
3) Run Barry, Run
that happened in Witcher 3...there is NO WAY to leave skellige...NONE...you are trapped in there (which isnt a bad thing IMO..i would gladly stay there forever) but even if you can get there by boat no boat leaves skellige...the Wild Hunt and the White Frost won because of immersion
"The DLC have you go through the wall map multiple times" I really don't understand what it is you're saying here. Are you referring to the Forgotten Vale? If so you can complete that whole place without ever leaving. My last playthrough was no fast travel and I had 0 issues with Dawnguard.
he is saying that the devs made the dlc thinking that EVERYONE will fast travel or use carriages (alternative fast travel) so if you are not doing these...immersion...basically going on foot or by horse you will have to go through the entire skyrim several times ...which is stupid....
1) to find serena and go to her castle and back to fort dawnguard..
2) to recruit help (the dwemer expert) and back to fort danwguard
3) to find the elder scroll from her mother and back to the fort
4) to the forgotten vale and back to the fort...
5) to get to the vampire castle to kill them.....
Yeahhhhhh.....that's quite a lot of running/ridding considering each mission is going from one side of the map to the extreme other...
As i also said to my comment right above your's...if you are not fast traveling in witcher 3...you are stuck on skellige because CDPR assumed everyone is fast traveling..
erm... "whole"... My bad. Going to edit that.
And really look at where the quest takes you and you'll realize the amount of travel you have to do is quite insane compared to other questlines. Even taking the main quest into account you tend to never have to travel from one end of the map to the complete opposite, except maybe after getting esbern. (also you do climb that mountain a lot... fuck you greybeards!)
I don't mind having to travel far away, sometimes, but when you are trying to focus on a questline and every phase of the questline is on opposite end of the map... that tends to be annoying quite fast.
Exactly!!!
A lot of people complained (sometimes justifiably, sometimes not) about the journal directions in Morrowind. Bethesda, ultimately, instead of *improving* directions, simply added map markers, in Skyrim often abandoning directions altogether. Presumably, because adopting map markers required considerably less effort.
And yes, while I consider myself more of an "old school gamer" I find the "hardcore" negative attitude toward "casuals" (particularly found at places like RPG Codex) to be utterly obnoxious, for many reasons.
I liked directions in Morrowind, I mean sure, I am not going to lie, sometimes I wanted to slam my head into the desk because I couldn't find the damn locations because of unclear directions, or when someone wrote wrong directions completly. But what I liked about it was that it felt realistic, people can give you vague or simply wrong information, I loved it and hated it at the same time
Indeed. Another thing I appreciate about the Morrowind directions is that while they can sometimes be very frustrating, you usually end up discovering all kinds of interesting things while trying to reach your destination.
"I remember a time when we didn't even have maps." Gopher confirmed immortal!
'member MUDs? All they had was words! You had to imaginate what everything looked like.
LMAO
Court Beckius Aww ^-^ I 'member!
Either that, or he was around in the late 80s/early 90s. Eye of the Beholder and Dungeon Master are two mapless games that come to mind. Some games did have maps, but they were packaged with the game on this lovely cloth material. Oh, those were the days...
A lot of my grievances with map markers would be solved if more games moved from "It's exactly HERE!" to "It's in this general area..."
True. Something similar to the area circle in Witcher 3.
But then people will get lost! They won't know what to do! They will just go to the area and then sit there stupidly!
Final Fantasy 14 does this with some quests, instead of a point on a map, they give you a circle where the quest objective is somewhere unspecified within that radius. This can lead to sneaky situations where the objective is right on the edge of the circle in a place you at first assume isn't in that area.
Agreed, though it would probably mean a lot more work as they would have to incorporate more detail into the world to make sure you can find your objectives using contextual information in the quest descriotion/npc dialogue when you get to the general area.
I think it helps the game play, but I suspect developers prefer the ease of just slapping a marker on it.
Certain quests in the Batman: Arkham do it like that. Like looking for assassination victims in City or mines in Knight. Those games aren’t really old at all, so good maps aren’t a lost art.
Not having map markers as an option is dumb, but not providing actual spoken (or written) directions in an RPG is also dumb.
Here here.
Yep. Though I'd rather have no map markers but proper directions than no proper directions with map markers.
When i played through half life 2, 3-4 times i broke the game going into places the game didnt want me to but didnt tell me where i should be going.
don't watch it then.
Map markers kind of defeat the point of an open world game. Maybe if you ask quest-givers for specific locations after getting a quest it makes sense to mark it on your map, but otherwise it would be more fun to just not. Imagine if you got a quest to hunt down books in Solitude, and instead of marking every single book, you would have to visit the most likely buildings to have books in. Imagine if, while tracking giants or something, you have to travel to the town it destroyed, ask around to find out which direction it went, then go that way until you either saw it, found more destroyed areas, or even find tracks that they automatically leave! Maybe tracks could be left by every animal and person on dirt, but fade after either a day or whenever it rains? It could be so much better!
To be honest a bit of help in certain quests in Morrowind would have been handy. Hours I lost wandering around those bloody ashen wastes looking for a particular tomb.
Right, having some options to help out are not a bad thing in my opinion. Just give the player the choice. But more importantly, don't give a map marker as a fix for 'bad directions' and then remove ALL directions :)
B-But Gopher, that would mean putting development time and care into the writing of our Quests and dialogue! How can we do that if we're so busy making sure that the next batch of Creation Club DLC is properly tested by our amazing QA tem?
I like having map markers, because in games, I like to feel like the map is an actual map that my character uses and that they might be marking things down on it and other people do too, when they say "here, i'll mark it on your map"
Yes, but how does your character mark a specific object on a map?
I am 100% in agreement with this. I have no problem whatsoever with quest-markers in games, I have a problem with the fact that is now impossible to play entirely without them. If they combined Morrowind's written directions with Skyrim's magic GPS, then the insipid argument that "if you don't like quest-markers, you can just turn them off" would actually have some weight.
I think you're missing my point a little, friend. I, personally, do not find vague directions annoying, I find them wonderful. Game developers these days insist on constantly giving us "massive open worlds" to explore, but they /never/ allow us to get a little lost. In a game like Morrowind, when an NPC gives me an objective clear on the other side of the map based on only a vague area, I rejoice. Because it means getting there will be just as much an adventure as whatever actually find there. Almost as if the open world itself /is/ the adventure, rather than a needlessly elaborate loading screen between dungeon crawls. And hey, if I truly get frustrated, we also live in the age of the internet now. Some guide, wiki, or walkthrough will have the exact location and how to find it.
However, since some people out there find what I just described frustrating. The point is that it's very subjective from player to player, and game devs are now being lazy and only counting on one kind of player showing up. Personally, if they did start giving written directions again alongside the optional quest-markers, your proposed hybrid system wouldn't be difficult to accomplish with a mod or two. It's basically how I have Skyrim and The Witcher 3 set up right now: map markers only on the compass/minimap.
The true explorer keeps fast travel enabled, for when you get stuck in gaps.
tcl
Good point, I've just realised I have an unwritten rule about "no tcl". I guess sooner or later we all have to draw a line in the sandbox.
I'll only use it when physically stuck and unable to move, as fast travel isn't always available, combat, inside etc. And I have a no fast travel rule :)
I think the moral of the story is that it's nice to have options :)
Thank Talos for fast travel. All the many times I've gotten myself stuck in some messed up place. Sucks when it happens in a dungeon or cave because there is no fast travel from there. Load last save.
Who needs map markers when you've played 4000 hours and can memorize every dungeon and place on the map.
A man of true culture
Personally I don't mind map markers, if a game has them i'll usually use them. But I do think developers are using them as a reason to have worse level design. I've noticed that recently playing with markers off has gotten a lot more annoying because the devs don't really give you any environmental clues as to where you are meant to be going :/
I don't like the idea that games are being "dumbed down" but I certainly think some games (and mainstream games are particularly vulnerable to this) are actually watered down. Compare Skyrim to Oblivion.
Compare Oblivion to Morrowind.
Oblivion was just as bad with this though.
I hate those "find something quests" where they tell you exactly where to go.. That's not finding that's going and taking.
cracktober I don't mean all map markers I mean quest like the one in Fallout 4 where you should find crafting items and they hive you map markers for that.
"toivo vuorinen but would you know where to go on a big map such as Skyrim if an NPC tells you: I lost it in a cave north of here." That is exactly the problem : bad written directions. It should say something like, in the cave north of here just after the crossroad to the east of the river ... or something (like in Morrowind).
but without map markers how would Preston mark on your map the settlement that needs your help? are you saying you don't want Preston telling you where to go?!
that was the nice thing about Morrowind... it was immersive. I miss the mark and recall, divine intervention spells, and the journal mechanic(for the reasons you mentioned, had to actually figure stuff out and it provided the necessary information to do so). Sure those spells were still fast travel, but it had a proper in game reason for existing. I kind of have a love/hate relationship with fast travel. On one hand I get from place to place quickly, on the other I miss out on scripted events/dialog that i'd otherwise get to experience. I guess this is why I use the Touring Carrages mod for Skyrim... yes, i'm still going from point A to point B in a fast travely way, but i'm at least not skipping the trip entirely, discovering things along the way as the driver casually comments on the area we're passing through. As a bit of a bonus it also creates an excuse to get up and move around a bit, because the trip depending on where i'm headed, could be a long one.
15:21 Pretty much, what I liked about Morrowind when I briefly played it. The NPCs giving you directions to the areas that they're directing you to and I have no clue why that was dropped as that whole thing makes sense. A person telling you to go somewhere will likely tell you how to get there especially if you ask.
However, don't mind the quest markers themselves and only despise them how they tend to be used. As a way of directing the player somewhere without the need of some dialogue telling you to go there. Willing to look past it if the character says something like 'Here, let me mark that on your map' as... well... that's passable.
Using MMOs as an example, back in the Everquest days and even early Lord of the Rings Online days, there was NO quest location markers showing you were to go. But the quests were highly detailed, giving you a strong visual of what direction to head and what to look for. Heck, early EQ didn't even have MAPS! You have to memorize the zone yourself, remember landmarks and various points of interest. The compass was a skill that you used to tell you what direction you believed you where facing. It was amazing. Now, quests are brief, lazy and uninspired ... everything is highlighted in bright colors on a map and all sense of exploration is utterly gone.
Weird title. Are you planning on make a series called Gopher Dumbed Down?
Yeah, you're right. Didn't catch that the first time.
It has been used to great effect by modders though a good example is in The Grey Cowl of Nocturnal where you use it to cross a fiery pit by walking along an invisible walkway
Thedoctor. I think you replied to the wrong comment
Yes I did thanks for informing me.
I hope so
My parents once thought I was a mathematical prodigy due to the amount of graph paper I would ask them to buy for me. Truth is I was mapping Zelda.
well they do have to make their games accessible to games journalists...
"Morrowind is a great game we all remember well, but I died once so its gonna be a 0/10 from me."
-Future game reviewer
The games arent for games journalists but for gamers. I understand why they make it so but I still dont like it.
Valkbg Its a joke. About the game journalist that couldnt get past Cup Head tutorial
Consider the following:
Design the game to be played without map markers, then add them in as an accessibility option.
I honestly like these ramblings.
Same. They're really interesting and insightful.
"I have wanted to make this video and a few other videos on a similar subject for quite some time"
_2 years later..._ *Playlist: 1/1*
2 more years, and no more videos.
The quest markers and the journal in Skyrim feal like a product oft MMORPGs. Where most players only want to know what to kill and where. So a big fat "!" or similar quest markers are apreciated. A real journal with the complete history oft the quest would have been much more helpful for people who play for the story. Icertainly would habe loved it and I hope it will be back in the next Elderscrolls game.
An Option to only show questmarkers in the worldmap would be nice. I have all quest markers active, all the time. People watching me play Skyrim always wonder how I can find anything. The thing is I don't really use them. They are just active so I can see in the world map if there is anything interesting near me. At the same time, I like the compass to know which direction i'm facing, without opening the world map.
Sometimes in Skyrim, I wonder how I got to a certain stage in a quest or forgot certain things NPCs say and attempt to view it in the journal like a lot of other RPGs and then realize- oh- its Skyrim- the journal is absolute garbage for that. There was another game I was playing- Sherlock Holmes Crimes and Punishments- definitely a different game, but the journal was a lifesaver in that- since each case was more than an hour long of continually collecting evidence, some of which were dead ends, it was immensely helpful to organize every conversation you had and all the things that you noticed into a nice chart.
Very interesting, thank you for the video Gopher.
Maybe if it was only on the map screen I'd be ok with it, but let's look at Morrowind. There were atleast 3 quests that gave you the wrong directions, and many of the directions were either overly simplified or much too broad in a way that it could cause you to be searching much too long.
GiRayne, that to me is a good example of realism getting in the way of fun. But a good RPG caters to those like both you and me - and other types of people. That is where, for even all the valid complaints against Bethesda games, I think they overall do very well with The Elder Scrolls. All TES games cater very well to different playstyles. I cannot comment on Fallout as I've never played the series.
GiRayne heres the key phrase, *you* kinda loved that. Other people could get frustrated and, since the internet is a thing now, give in after hours of searching and look up the location online. Now I know, you'll say that it takes self control to stop yourself going online to find out where to go, or what to do. But it should be the games job to tell you where to go properly, without having to do some out of game research. Thats not to say that map markers are always the answer though. I myself have a great time using treasure maps in ESO without going on UESP to see where the treasure is.
In real life if someone gave me the wrong/vague directions then I would ask someone else for directions. Morrowind does not let you do this so I don't consider it realistic.
Something to also factor in when talking directions in morrowind is that even though IT had issues, considering everything we can fit into the environments of games now it would be much easier to give clear concise directions with actually distinct markers that fit into the world more organically without feeling too forced. Of course I'm certainly not against map markers or anything myself, but I just thought it was worth bringing up :3
GiRayne Just a note about Skyrim. You can keep all quest markers inactive. A lot of you people are mixing quest markers with map markers. Map markers are fine. Real maps have map markers like dots for cities & stars for capitals & lines that separate areas. You guys are really complaining about quest markers & even as I said before, those can be turned off.
I would love to see more of these types of videos, it opens a whole new conversation and allows the community to see others perspectives.
Distant Memories quest from TESV. You are told that the ship wrecked "somewhere" on the north-eastern coast of Skyrim. In Morrowind you would have to search the whole coast. In Skyrim you are given the extact location. THAT IS WRONG. In Oblivion you had a Journal and it somewhat didn't feel that akward. Nowdays it's just "Well I don't know where it is but here, the map will magically show you where to go".
Jimmy Kitkat Because that's not how an RPG should work. Lazy design for lazy ppl. I disagree with Gopher, it was made like that because people today feel that the should be given a reward for zero effort.
Dude You miss the point, those NPC's during their dialog say that they don't know the location yet they give you the "EXACT" spot. If you can't understand what an adventure should look like then there is no point is this conversation. If I wanted to go "kill" something I would pick up a different game, a linear action one.
Now you're just being rude. What I said is the truth. If I hurt anyones feelings it just means I hit the spot.. and I know I did because of what you just said. What's the point of finding hidden lost treasure when you know where it is. It's so bizzare. I can't imagine history's greates explorers facing the same problem you do.
This is an RPG (role playing game) so you should feel like an real explorer, adventurer.. not a guy with GPS or Google Maps.
Pretty much just repeating what gopher said, but I feel it's an issue not because those elements exist but because you're kind of forced to use those elements in the sense that the developers designed the game in a non-immersive way to work with a non-immersive system. Like with skyrim, it's a nightmare to play without quest markers because you literally lack sufficient information to find things on your own. A lot of quests also send you to the opposite ends of the map because it's easier to just arbitrarily place shit everywhere and fast travel to it than design quests that fit the game world.
A possible compromise would be to have both detailed instructions and quest markers, but reward following the manual instructions of a quest with more content. An example would be having a marker towards the general goal of the quest but have additional unmarked details from the remarks of the NPC's you talk to that can lead to changing the outcome of a quest or lead to special rewards. The philosophy of this compromise is it sort of manifests the interests of the individual - the end user who enjoys hacking and slashing can skip around to the important parts with markers/fast travel but reward exploring the unbeaten path with interesting characters, dialogue, etc. that are less crucial to the "skyrim player"'s experience I guess you could call it.
Then again I'm not a game designer and this is probably contrived as hell.
Hi Gopher,
There's a mod called "Take Notes"
Might help with the whole handwritten journal argument in the video.
Also, better quest objectives mod, which expands on the journal entries.
A combination of both mods, should be able to help satisfy these arguments on the old school vs new school way of playing.
For the record, the way I play skyrim is greatly influenced by the same factors you just mentioned. I use road signs, no fast travel and the only thing closest to map markers I use (cause i play a battlemage) is the clairvoyance spell... mainly used as an auxiliary purpose.
I think you might enjoy the upcoming Kingdom Come: Deliverance. (Feb 2018)
There are map markers, but many are 'regional' which guide you to a search area and then 'lock' to a fixed 'hunt around here' mode while you are inside the region, and revert to pointing to the region if you leave. Some quests are given without map markers, but with (more or less) detailed verbal directions spoken in dialogue (and copied to the player journal), others have a more formal - "this is the location you should go to", marked onto the map and with a sufficient verbal description to turn the correct way as you get close. Still early days, and my opinion formed from ~150 hours in the old (march 2016) beta, plus the more 'current state' presentations and livestreams from this season's gameshows, but I am very hopeful for the final product.
Lots of different ways of approaching quests - and failure as a 'success state' which permits alternative routes to be sought for most of the major quests.
I think the first Dishonored was good example of optional map markers.
NPCs give enough exposition on where your objectives should be, the Heart gave you directions to valuable resources, and there are often local maps and signposts to help guide you through a level. Plus all the notes you pick up throughout the game often lead you to alternate paths or treasure.
It's different in scale compared to an open-world like Skyrim but the experience was vastly different when I played with no-HUD elements. My first playthrough felt heavily guided with all the quest markers and objective pop-ups, but when I removed the HUD for the Daud DLCs I felt like I was interacting with the world on a greater level and found myself getting familiar with the environment rather than relying on a magic pointer.
A great example is when Daud infiltrates the Brigmore Witches' manor. Before the mission starts, you can choose receive valuable intel from one of the enemies in the level but the only clue you're given about her identity is that she can be found in the behind the manor and is wearing red coat. She patrols the area like any other regular enemy so it's up to you to find her contact her safely. If the HUD was on, the moment would've probably been lack luster as it would just point me to her location.
I see the removal of Skills and just the inclusion of Perks as Dumbing Down. See in older Fallout's if you had a design in mind, you could work toward that gameplay right from the start. Want to be a stealthy thief, put your points into Sneak and buff it up. Wanna be someone that solves someone through wits and smarts, go with speech and science. Yes it does lead to homogenization when you get more skills and soon max every skill, but that usually happens near the end of the game where you have already gone through many harrowing experiences. I go to the Seirra Madre and my character decides he needs to figure out some survival skills while there and to keep himself safe in the future in case he ever gets stuck in this mess again. He decides to learn more about Energy Weapons because they seem to be plenty in Big MT.
Fallout 4 however, only gives you perks, and only 1 perk per level, worse, higher level beyond level 1 of a perk requires a certain amount of levels to get. So instead of being a stealth master at the start of the game, you have to take 1 point in stealth, then wait 10 levels to get the next, and only feel competent in stealth when Im level 30. Same with the other skills. Why the hell would I wait to put training into lockpicking when I'm looking for supplies to save my life?
In fact though, there was a way to make this a lore reason, make the character a synth an advanced synth at that, he can't learn skills naturally, instead when he levels up, he is allowed to open up partitions in his memory that governs the skills he has. It's all just a test by the institute to see if synths actually can think for themselves and be like humans.
In some games it does work in some games it won't. Like i was playing vampire the masquerade and that game would not be as fun when you have quests markers. Because the investigation is a big part of the fun at least for me.
there are also games that in my eye use map markers terrible or just don't let the player find something for them self. Like the witcher 3 were horse riding is almost automated, everything is marked on your map and eagle vision. I kinda like how BDS does map markers. There games are focused on exploration and when you look at your bar and see a unknown location why not check it out.
There are 2 things I tell people not to do ...1. Don't tell me how to live my life ... 2.Don't tell me how to enjoy MY gameplay ...it's that easy. It's fine to have a personal opinion about a game. However, no one should tell another person how THEY should enjoy THEIR game. So, if I like map markers, especially on a game with a map as big as Skyrim, then I expect people to respect the way I LIKE TO PLAY MY GAME and I will respect the way they like to play THEIR game. End of subject. Game makers usually put in options for UI tweaks to be able to turn on and off certain aspects of the UI. If they don't then mod the parts out you don't like. Of course this is usually only an option for PC gamers. As far as people who play on console I have no reccomendations as they are not always able to be modded and I don't play consoles. But really just respecting others is all it's about.
You are missing the point entirely, the fact of the matter is we can no longer play games how we want due to things like the map markers becoming so popular the "game makers" give you a map marker and remove the immersive directions that a large section of their fan base love. Nobody is saying remove them entirely but when playing most of the role playing games in today's market simply turning off map markers and you will never find the objective because the developers gave no instructions on how to get there without following said map markers. Play the damn games the way YOU want to, but at least help us get back to a time where we can actually turn the damn things off and still have a general idea on how to figure out where we are supposed to go!
But equally, don't blame him that the games don't cater for you. Why should he actively help you get what you want when for decades you've been calling him names and infering that he is stupid because he likes things that are different to you?
Bed made, if you don't want to lie in it, then it's you who has to change, not him.
ok you mongoloid here is the thing, it's not just 'UI choice' we can make. they are relying on markers so they dont have to write directions. if you dont use markers you cant play the game which is what people are complaining about.
But dont worry, they will never take your quest markers away. Games nowadays are made for the lowest common denominator ie dumbfucks like you
William, you don't know if IWasHere4K has ever called anyone a name in his or her life. They certainly didn't here. So maybe calm down a bit?
Also, fapnyr, shut up. Not helpful.
Re: in-game notes. There's a mod for that. See "Take Notes - Journal of the Dragonborn". It doesn't automatically generate entries for each quest, but does allow for in-game manual note-taking.
D hat for DERP ..people tend to confuse dumped down for something that now makes more sense....people called dumped down skyrim for having some immortal NPC's....yeah..because having him/her die while going somewhere during a quest by a random spawn makes more sense at destroying the quest you are doing
Maybe the subject for another video :)
yeah yeah..i was out of subject a bit...sorry...i just...i remember being stuck at the seer stupidity of that comment back then when i read it...
Yeah but why can't I kill the Jarls? What about NPCs that don't leave a safe cell? What about NPCs of factions that I oppose? What about NPCs that will follow me to that quest location?
Just because there's one dumb comment doesn't mean that there is no valid reason for being against half the NPCs being unkillable. I mean you could even at least make them protected so only the player can kill them, which there is no reason not to allow this for every NPC that is essential. There's no reason for immortal NPCs, it's dumbing it down because the dev couldn't find a way to have the game continue on with that dead NPC.
because it takes less money to make them immortal than carefully ID who is who and by whom he can die...addressing a situation doesn't mean you fixed it...it still sucks for the reasons you just told..but its better than fucking everyone because a random spawn on a random situation end up killing the npc who had to go somewhere in order to meet you...specially in a game that randomness is its key selling point when free-roaming around
The solution to that problem is "protected" NPC's, which is actually part of the Bethesda games. There should not be any "essential" NPCs. You should be able to kill anyone you want, but only the player can kill the important ones. It should also give you a message like in Morrowind.
When I turned the compass off in my recent Skyrim play through, I would end up lost...a lot, but that is not necessarily a bad thing. I get lost in real life and there are not Giant Flags hovering over my destination. I would use the map more often to check my location and if I was heading on the right path. Is it annoying? Yes. Is it time consuming? Yes. Is it more realistic? Yes and that actually makes it more enjoyable. I love the idea of people marking the location on your map, or maybe asking strangers for directions on the road and having them point you in the right direction, even the clairvoyance spell is okay for certain role plays. These could be used instead of the magical arrow that appears. Of course this is my opinion.
as things stand at the moment we have to be happy if we get a "dumbed" down TES VI and not some random ass p2w lootbox ingameshop shit :/
WEEKLY SPECIAL: $10 FLAMING DAEDRIC ARMOR
The creation club does not bode well for that. At least we have the modding community still making more content for the older games in the series.
I wonder if they will start slowly stripping away moddability in the next games (maybe start by not allowing a script extender) in order to encourage people to do micro-transactions for more content. If it happens slowly and on new games that didn't already have mods there wouldn't be the same uproar as if they just banned modding and shut down the nexus.
The good thing is that is unlikely due to the fact that Bethesda has a long track record of bucking industry trends and doing its own thing. In fact they set new trends more often than they follow them. For example, a lot of games took inspiration of Skyrim.
Divayth Fyr, that won't happen. The CC actually relies on the existence of free mods. This is evident in the fact that the application process for becoming a CC freelancer requires you to point to a mod or mods you made that they will use to judge if they want you making official content for them.
In ESO there are "pinkiller" interface addons that remove map markers from the gameworld but leaves them on the map. It's perfect. I only look when necessary, and try to do it quickly, so I don't have the feeling that I'm playing a "run to the arrow" game.
Some people are just mean, and they feel they should just spread their mean-ness around, Why is ANYONE telling you how to play YOUR game, that's like trying to tell you how you should take care of your kids or take a shower, or cook, etc, Games are personal, and if one guy likes to play on easy, more power to him, and if others like nightmare difficulty there is NO difference between these people , because its PERSONAL, sheesh, why can't people just deal with the way OTHER people play games, if you don't like it, go somewhere else.
Because you're not doing it how they want, so you're wrong. That's how I see those people anyways. Or the bigshot 'you do it like x' people with the shows and all, even though they don't know who the fuck you are.
it's not about that, it's about games catering to both types which they hardly ever do, and most of the time they cater it to the casuals
True, the biggest reason I watch Gopher is for his commentary, not so much for the game, I subed way back when he had just started Steve-Gro-Fur, (I think that's his char. name), so it doesn't really matter how he plays any game, its because hes funny, entertaining and I like his play style, (not because he plays it 'correctly') he plays it like Gopher, and that's the correct way for Him, he just happens to like the most difficult settings possible to play his games, he could play it on easy and use all the map markers he wants, and I'd still watch him, it should be about the person not the game.
I understand what he was talking about and its true that most games lately have kind of lost the discovery element in their games and feel its necessary to hold your hand and act as if gammers are dumb, what I was talking about is the dumbass who commented on his vid and told him he was doing it wrong, for some reason that shit pisses me off, as if they had a say in how he runs HIS channel, constructive criticism I can understand, but you don't dare tell an other person how to play their games on their channel, suggestions, sure, advice, no problem, but to flat out tell him he's wrong, NO.
Its quit obvious you haven't watched many vids from Gopher, or even a subscriber, if you are then you need to go somewhere else, if you don't like his commentary, or you don't like the way he runs his channel then leave, no ones keeping you here, why do you stick around? what do you do all day? click on vids and complain? your doing now what your condemning Gopher for. Gophers channel and all other channels are not a democracy, its his channel, he runs it his way, I have seen him respond to suggestion before, many times, there's a difference between constructive criticism and and complaining because he didn't do something the way YOU thought he should, just as your doing now.
"He complains too much" if your going to offer 'constructive' criticism then do, don't sit around and start complaining to his fans how much he complains.
and by the way, your opinion is not needed.
I've thought about this subject a lot, and come to a pretty definitive conclusion; generalized markers that can be refined through dialogue, finding notes/clues, etc. ie. an 'area' marker that denotes the general area a quest objective is located at. Talk to a couple people/the right person and you can tighten that marker to a more specific area; pass a speech check of some kind and perhaps you can whittle it down to a specific marker.
And yeah, an actual journal is something that would be immensely helpful one way or another, and could even be used in some interesting ways to supplement spoken dialogue - a radiant quest might just have the NPC say 'go take care of those bandits for me' while the journal could provide more detailed information.
Say you work in a kitchen. It's a 12 hour a day job in hot, loud environment where you spend all or almost all of your day on your feet. You have to get there by 8, and you get back by eight. You've got maybe 2 hours after you get home before you need to go to sleep. You've got a wife and kids. Let's be honest. You've going to spend some time with the kids, and some time with the wife. So now you've got about half an hour. You want to play an RPG, so you put one in, boot it up, and get a quest. Closest place to your destination is a military camp 45 minutes away, so you fast travel there, walk the 15 minutes to your destination, enter, spend the next 15 minutes in a dungeon crawl, and then you can't find what you went there for and you need to be in bed in the next 5 minutes. You turn on the map markers, and find it. All in time for bed. It's like a curb cut. And that's not so bad.
And in the same way that Morrowind succeeded in depth, Skyrim succeeded in playability. It didn't sell 20+ million copies for nothing.
Exactly.
I am not sure exactly what that has to do with what I said :) I never once suggested map markers should be removed, just that adding them does not mean dialogue and good journal entries should be removed.
Gopher More meant this for the people who still weren't convinced.
I'm not opposed to people making RPGs that cater to the "stressed unfocused line cook with no spare time" demographic. But the core appeal of The Elder Scrolls is entirely incompatible with that sort of "turn off your brain, have a beer, kill some monsters" approach. You can't make an Elder Scrolls game for sleepy cooks without compromising what makes these games artistically/aesthetically/narratively valuable in the first place.
Design the game for its core qualities first, then add some sleepy cook convenience features (like map markers to complement written/spoken directions) where possible, sure. But don't construct your design around that demographic and expect to _also_ make an immersive role-playing game.
There is a reason why Journal+Map Makers other than "just a more effort by developer".
That is because the answer to this problem may be that it is more time-efficient is "make quests shorter" and have all of the work done for free by simply reorganizing the quests rather than working.
You can play in Skyrim without journal at all. Why? Because almost all quests in this game are simple. "Go and kill someone, go, find and bring me something". Why quests in Skyrim are simple? Because developers are lazy. Why they are lazy? Because they are famous as developers of good games. They are sitting on their thrones idly. They know that players will buy the product. This fact alone is making them think that they can get away with their laziness. In some sense they are right. Because the new generation of players doesn't know any better. Old generation of gamers will buy their game too (based on the previous achievements), they will vomit later, but money already will be spent.
Morrowind consisted of a large abundance of simple quests as well yet it didn't have map markers.
Dude you just described ALL RPG game quest.
“Kill this bandit leader”
“Find this treasure in this location”
“Kill this bag bad”
“Find this person”
“Save this person”
Stop this purist old school “real RPG” bullshit cause at the end of the day that’s basically how things work
"at the end of the day that’s basically how things work" NOW. What about other quests? Complete the quests "by using the right words", "by being attentive", "by remembering something", "by using your intuition". It is the RPG game, you should be creative. If variety of quests is reduced only to killings and findings it is slashers, it is Diablo-style games, but not RPG.
Михаил Сергеевич Except you described pretty much all of Morrowind's quests. The only difference is that in Morrowind, you could maybe get an item in two different ways, which is the important part you didn't mention, making your comment basically useless for a discussion
I like the way you discuss these topics with so much balance and reason.
Another point where The Witcher 3 outdid Skyrim.
Thanks for the video Gopher, I really see where you are coming from. I remember in World of Warcraft before the Cataclysm expansion came out, players were expected to read dialogue and quest journals to figure out how to complete quests. However in Cataclysm on-wards the devs added in Map markers for all quests; all the dialogue and journals aren't written out anymore to explain the quests and they expect you to use the markers. Now they even have voiced dialogue but I feel that voice adds to immersion personally. Just goes to show you it's the entire industry's focus now.
I am very happy with Map Markers etc., because my Orientation is absolutely TERRIBLE! And i would be very frustrated, if i didn't had my back up Map MArkers, to look, if i am totally lost...agaiN! XD I don't know what is the Prob with Markers...you can turn it down, if you're too cool for them. lol I don't see what is the argue about that issue. Nowadays there are options to personalize the Game like you want to play it. Me, personaly, trys to avoid Markers, if i don't really need them, but well, without them i would be lost xD
Well English is not my tongue, so "sorry" xD And if you think People are dump because they use Emojis, then you are a very, very limited Person LOL But have a nice day, and get offensive about stupid stuff XD
Aleksi134 Did you at least listen to the first 2 minutes of the video? You speak exactly like the true "dumb" of which Gopher speaks ... Writing bad English does not necessarily mean being an idiot. I am myself French, and even if I write bad English, am happy to be able to share things on the channel of gopher (Without being insulted of idiot.). In addition, he gave his point of view, kindly, correctly and without animosity .. and the only thing you find to say is to treat it as "dumb" ... because it makes some mistakes? * Clap clap *
"they usually make themselfs look dumb"
Huh..... is that so
(themselves)
Then maybe you should play without them instead of making your navigation skills even worse? I believe I read somewhere (not sure where) that constant hud following in video games damages the part of your brain used for navigation.
Vegan Hero, don't believe everything you read. Especially things like that that don't stand up to rational analysis.
"That thing on your wrist - it's a convenience. It tells you where to go, what to do, dulls your brain." -Father Elijia
Quest tracking in games like Morrowind was a nightmare...
Thank the high heavens for map markers.
People want to play, not spend endless hours trying to figure out where the quest is, they just want to play the quest.
It's a video game & we have real lives. Gamers would absolutely rage if they had to spend time finding quests. Sure some would enjoy it but most of us with jobs & lives would have their free time thrown in the trash by removing map markers.
"people want to..." => Some people want that. I'm ok that map markers exist for them. But I actually like to try feeling like a real adventurer, asking for directions and advices, and finding things by myself. But if the developpers don't add those clues because "meh they have map markers anyway" then it's really annoying...
"most of us with jobs & lives would have their free time thrown in the trash by removing map markers."
You are just as bad as the people who are against them. You should not go around insinuating that "people" and "gamers" all enjoy map markers, and that those who prefer to find their quests themselves don't have jobs and lives.
The reason Morrowind didn't need map markers was because the NPCs actually told you where you were going, in detail. Needed to get to the dwarven ruins of Arkngthand? Well, simply follow the road out of Balmora, cross the small bridge, and continue until you reach a turn just before Fort Moonmoth. Those instructions shouldn't be hard for anyone.
That said, if you like map markers, more power to you. A crutch for lazy developers they may be, but I'm never opposed to giving players more choices in how they enjoy their games.
Did you even watch the entire video? Gopher specifically said that map markers should exist as well as accurate descriptions of the locations for players who do not like map markers. He doesnt want map markers removed.
"Options" is not the option.
Games are made in one of the options in mind. You may get royally fucked when playing games with unconventional settings, as they were not playtested with them in mind.
Play TW3 on harderst without health-bars. Most of the fights are super annoying and anticlimactic, as you often fight for way longer than you have expected, and then randomly enemy just dies.
Developers most likely though about no health bar option for more immersion, and have thought that most of the people that care about it will play on easy/normal, not the hardest.
Just like that, you may be fucked on turning off crucial story hints, by missing quests that in playtests were found mostly thanks to the UI stuff etc.
"Just go offroad" isn't the way to go, because these mechanics are not created in the void, but create more complex systems / UX.
I would absolutely love having detailed quest journals again... the more story I have to reread, the easier it is to explain to a friend why I love a game... without directly spoiling any of it for when they play it.
Map markers and mini maps are the bane of good video games.
They can be, but they don't have to be. It's the developers who decide if that is true or not.
Simon Rockstream What is wrong with mini maps? Still have to follow basic directions rather than have an arrow tell you where to go
The Witcher games have mini-maps. As do the TES games since Morrowind. Also, most RTS games have them, even the classics like Age of Empire or Starcraft. Not to mention every MMO ever...
Simon, you have never played GTA SA or V havent you...try closing the map system and I DARE YOU not to rage quit
Simon Rockstream Giving the player choice as to how they want to play their rpgs is the bane of good videogames.
TBH I've expected you defending map makers :P
I'd not fight with Dumbed Down == Simplified that much, maybe on the contrary - I'd probably embrace it.
Grumpy old gamer has not only existed, but pretty often was right - it is Simplification. Simplification of some processes. Some people enjoy playing D&D with hand-crafting maps based on DMs descriptions, and some use Roll20. If game picks Roll20, it deletes a part of the game that some people enjoyed.
By removing fall damage, one can make open world more accessible to the players - which works great for the game like Shadow of Mordor/War, but on the other hand I cant imagine game like STALKER not-having fall damage - the exploration can be often based off the fact that fall damage exist.
You need right tool for the job, and I'd suggest using the answer to the quesion "Was it Simplified or Dumbed Down" to be treated as opinion question, not the fact question, and be discussion-starter, not discussion-ender (why do you think so, what have you enjoeyed that was lost etc.)
And about the entire lazy developer thing - games quite often have negative space in their mechanic - not having mechanic can be sometimes more interesting than having it, and adding every Quality of Life feature imaginable results in limited design space.
For example not adding in-game compass, may lead to adding mechanic where you look for moss at the north side of rocks and trees. Maybe some people enjoy it, and by adding Quality of Life feature you may loose it - sometimes in obvious ways, but sometimes unintentionally (when you have minimap you may stop caring about NPCs giving you proper directions, what may lead to NPCs direction-giving being shallow or not playtested enough).
And about Outrage culture... one may see it as evil, but other may see as the opportunity for the good indie games and ideas.
While I think that hate against people who like/expect some QoL features is unreasonable, one have to agree that games are created as a whole, not as bunch of systems, and having the opinion "I dont care, as long as I can turn it off" is not fully honest/aware of how games are made.
You must be new to this channel if you think I'd defend replacing dialogue and good quest journals with a UI element :)
Though they make a good point with the indie game part, people sometimes get tired of games not having what they want and so they actually make one, I personally would love if Skyrim was a bit more like D&D that's why I play with Requiem despite it's need for patches on nearly anything
This nicely summarizes how a feel about map markers and the dumbing down of certain RPG features. Great video!
Built to accommodate the lowest common denominator
You shouldn't denegrate people who enjoy different thing to you in games. There is no "lowest common denominator", there are people who like games in different ways, and RPG players of all fucking gamers should be tolerant of that, because we also want the rpg's to accomodate our, let's face it individual niche preferences.
I personally like stealth and can't stand magic. But hey, people who play mages and enjoy playing mages aren't "the lowest common denominator". They are people who enjoy different things to me. I probably think what you enjoy in games is boneheaded, knuckle dragging plebian crap. But you know what, if you say you enjoy it, I am going to fight for you to have it in the game, tooth and nail, because I wrongly assume you would do the same for me.
William Jones
Denigrate?!
That depends on your assumption or assignment of a negative connotation to "lowest common denominator". Sorry if that feels like an insult to you.
What I was attempting to say was, they build games to be accessible to everyone/anyone.
William Jones
Furthermore, I would argue that it isn't denigrating to acknowledge that half of the population in the UK and US fall below an IQ 100 and that a proportion of them fall below IQ 85 and can't find their way out of their friend's garage, let alone find a quest item without a quest marker.
I don't think you understand the meaning of the word denegrate - it means "criticise unfairly", not insult. Maybe take ten minutes to restructure your reply and get back to me?
William Jones Maybe reread his comment and actually try to argue his logical points? Uh oh
I spammed the like button at around 2:35
I must say that I find your view on this stuff totally refreshing and a lot more level-headed and thought out than a lot of people who just love to point their fingers and scream *"INJUSTIIIIIIICE I feel wronged."* or similar things that don't provide worthwhile feedback. Thank you for your level-headedness G-man xP
Its a fucking game mechanic. It shouldnt be made sense of and over analyzed saying "Well it only makes sense if my character has an implant"
Well immersion is definitely important in some games. I don't mind gamey mechanics in game that don't try to be something else than games, but for something like skyrim I do expect the game not to remind me that it is in fact a game.
That aside and even accepting it as a mechanic, the problem is that the mechanic shouldn't be relied on, people should be able to complete the game without using their gps.
I agree that "it shouldn't" in the sense that its not required for a game to function, but when a game does it it's something special. Take Dead Space for example. Your health and energy are on your back which you never have to take your eyes off of the center of the screen where the action is. Also in the case of Dead Space you could say it makes no sense for a health reading to be in a place where the character couldn't easily see it, but all that takes is a simple additional explanation to increase immersion further.
Yeah, it's funny how Gopher has no problem with healing being done by eating 50 apples in the middle of combat, but map markers? Oh the humanity!
Immersion = eating 7 loaves of bread, 15 apples and a leg of goat in the middle of combat, pausing time before the enemy hits you.
@OP ++
Mechanical implications are 1000 times more important that immersion ones.
What is called immersive may change - players may get used to having less UI or more UI, so IMO immersion cannot be boiled down to "this is immersive, this is not".
Much bigger problem is IMO the age-old developer wisdom "player will take fun out of your game", meaning that if anything you can count on player doing, is that he will be trying to win, to the point when they may make game unfun for themselves.
(The given example was that XCom is about taking risk, but good players may in their pursuit of winning avoid being in risky situations to begin with, making the game more boring)
When playing game I cannot play not-efficient. If I have map - I use map. If I have map markers - I follow them. If I have 3 quests - unless the game taught me otherwise I do them in the order to run the least.
If the game makes me think to get through puzzles on regular basics, I'll think through puzzles. If it makes them childs-play, I will do them instantly and move on.
I don't want to play "more badly" based on the assumption that "developer was wrong, I know how the game should be played".
If developer doesn't want me to care about views in the game but care about minimap to get in place in time - I will do so - he is a developer after all. I'd rather play different game if I dont like this rather than trying to fix his job.
-hey Gopher there's a cave over to our right, about 500m away.
-how do you know that? you can't see it from here and there's no indication on the map
and no one in town pointed out to us that there is a cave over there, soo how do you know that?
-this magic compass told me, soo wana check it out?
-fine lets go, might be some sweet loot in it.
Your whole beginning of this video is a strawman and a false equivocation. People, like myself, who have been giving constructive criticism and valid reasons for why we dislike "dumbed down games " are not, "grumpy old man gamers," and calling us as such is just a pejorative to dismiss people you don't agree with instead of addressing good arguments. And I doupt you haven't seen them because I have. They're not hard to find. Also that's a strawman argument.
Equating fair and legit criticism of a game companies design choices to elitist thinking or a superiority complex is a false equivocation and a strawman as well. Your arguments at the beginning are terrible and I can't help but think you made them soully for the drama and the views. Money must be tight or something.
You have to admit, at the very least, there's a correlation between games getting easier, and increase of game sales. Also games that are more difficult and challenging tend to sell less or not get as much play time according to places like Steam. I mention this because it seems to strongly indicate that game companies "dumb down" games to make more money. So fuck all us gamers that like challenging games and supported these game companies for many years. They sold out for greed.
You ask, does anything get lost when thing are stream lined, simplified, etc.? And the answer is yes. Challenge is lost. Also comparing the designs that make a game more challenging to say something like stream lining and simplifying a car design is a false equivocation as well. One make a car better and one makes a game that a ten year old could complete. And as an adult, I want games to challenge me.
So if making a game that less intelligent people can play easily isn't "dumbing down, I don't know what is. Also taking what some assholes on the internet say and claiming that is the entirety of the arguments made by those who dislike "dumbing down," of their games is disengenuous and also a strawman once again. Even if now you're saying there "might," be some truth to it. It's sounds like a bit of back pedaling to me.
The problem with your argument that people who want a more challenging experience can just turn off the things that make it too easy is that many of the things that make a game too easy aren't optional. You seem to be late to the party when yor say, "it's not about the players. It's about the developers." No shit. That's what we've been saying for years. Game developers dumbing down games to apeal to a bigger audience and thus sell more games. That is what the mainstream gaming industry is all about these days. Oh. And loot boxes. Finally to your final comment. Dumbing down isn't to make it easier for the players. It's to make it easier for the developers. Well I'll throw your own words back at you. "Why can't it be both?" Because I think it is both. But it's to make games easier for the players more because money is the motivation. Oh. And loot boxes.
Depending on the type of game they shouldn't replace detail. Meaning, they shouldn't replace NPCs giving vague hints or complete directions. It shouldn't replace the player having to find notes and clues. Map markers are a convenience for impatience. It detracts from a lot of detail and depth from most games. It's not a big deal that some people can only express that with a blanket statement like "dumbed down".
If there is one thing I have learned from Gopher is that he is the king of strawman arguments.
Took me to long to find this, I felt throughout his entire video he was debating against nothing. I'm not mad because people aren't playing a game the way i want them to, I'm disappointed companies like Bethesda will never release a true RPG like Morrowind again due to the sales of Skyrim.
Skyrim - No character customisation , just choose what you look like your amazing at everything
- No exploring a world, follow the markers
- The world and look levelling up around you, so you never explore terrifying levels and revel in the idea of getting to a point you can go their properly.
- Majority of NPC's are invincible incase you make a mistake
- All story lines are the same (literally all of them are on the brink of destruction but as the chosen one i save them yay!)
- Become the grand master of ancient organisations stupidly quick and ridiculously weak - Can be archmage without ever casting a spell.....
I will never forget how I was told in Morrowind to "Go up the north road past two temples and turn right after the big mountain. And if I came to the lake I went too far and should turn back".
Consoles. Period.
The Bezzopulus how are consoles the issue?
+ethan Simply put, because consoles allowed more people to play video games by not having it be an out of the way hobby, the amount of money being made by most people (who want a straightforward experience), is affecting the way games are made to be less complex in mechanics. On the other hand games without consoles would be limited severely in their budgets. CD Projekt Red said that the Witcher 3 as it is would have never had happened if not for consoles, for example.
ethan
Because consoles appeal to the lowest common denominator i.e devs dumbing down their games to appeal to a wider audience which makes them more money.
Um no, daggerfall could easily be ported to an xbox without issue. Its the devs fault, not the console.
Seen what Star citizen has achieved so far? It can only do that because it's not shackled to console performance.
Imagine the Fallout and elderscrolls games we could have been getting if that restriction were taken away.
I been playing alot of games lately that dont use the map marker and I
can say that it has affected the way i travel thru a game, I hate to say
that i depended on it to show me where to go so much when a game
didnt have one I was literally confused and would get mad cause
I didnt know where to go, I got lost alot easier cause i wasnt looking
at the surroundings and learning the areas.
Games have been dumbed down for millenial console gamers. And because developers are becoming lazy.
I guarantee you're a millennial
Millennial or not he does have a point, many things have been "dumbed down" for consoles simply because they lack the input devices for a wide range of functionality.
millennials are anyone from between 1985 and 2000, so anyone between 17 and 32 years old.
+KingofRotterdam16 Says the millennial who plays console games.
Fucking millennials. Damn those controller loving cunts god if my grandson ever picks up a controller I will personally issue a command to get him kicked out of his house.
In some cases it also breaks immersion because when your character heads of to do something he would write down the important information like where to go and also who gave him that information not like 'oh the quest updated and I magically remeber or know who to give this spoon to'
that is why I gave up on completing side quests in Skyrim, every quest was "follow the marker and kill a person or take a thing - the end"
quests that looked like an interesting investigative adventures (like the quest for the dark elf in Riften, he asked you to find something out about his parents) I was like "finally good detective quest" and it just pointed me to the other side of the world to a journal (aka follow marker - take thing - the end )
I remember Madness and the Minotaur. Mine was on the Tandy Color Computer, so I don't know if it was exactly the same, but I couldn't make it past 2 to 3 rooms, so I just gave up. Not as playable as Raaka-Tu or Pyramid.
I believe it was the same game. I played it on the Dragon 32 which used a similar chip set I believe.
Yeah, it looks like those were 6809E processors... and if I remember right, Minotaur was in machine language, not Basic? Can't remember if it was CLOAD or CLOADM...
This makes me think about how I could make an interactive quest journal for any games I make. (I have a few ideas for games, but I'm still working on the skills for implementation). I like immersion, and I appreciate the reminder that even little things like maps will affect people's experiences with the games they play. Any way.
I agree, i find a system where you can enable a marker during a difficult quest OK. Otherwise markers should be disabled.During combat the markers above the NPC should be disabled, where you need to follow a fleeing enemy the marker should be enabled only if you are certain distance away.
btw I can also see specific map markers as something that can be effected by a spell or a skill.
Is there a Skyrim mod that has no auto-markers but a map where the player can add flags and notes? Although it would require a conversation option to all NPCs/questgivers where you could ask them to describe approximately how to find a place. That could be a good immersive mod.
Check out the Skyrim Mod "Immersive Questing"... a Morrowind style quest system. No map markers, full quest descriptions and physical directions to locate the quest location.
It works great! I like having to actually think about the quests I'm doing, search for items, find locations, investigate mysteries... this is a big step in the right direction.
Edit: It's old, and built for oldrim, but I use it for Skyrim SE and it works fine. I contacted the mod author, and he has no problems if anybody would like to port it/update it if anyone is up to the task. In fact, if anyone is proficient at modding, I would like to work with them in breathing some life into this mod and getting it out to the public where others can discover it. Message me if you are interested.
Preston Garvey: "Another settlement needs our help. Here I'll mark it on your map."
Gopher: "No thanks, I'll spend the next 3 years roaming the Commonwealth and hoping I'll stumble upon it."
Maybe the npcs can just say "I'll mark the location on your map" and the undiscovered marker for the location on the world map will appear. The player can figure out where they need to go using the quest log.
Old school journals with somewhat detailed descriptions are awesome. Great video. :) (I still have a paper here somewhere with a small "map" from trying to navigate that labyrinth in Planscape: Torment where you get that weird mechanical companion. That was a real pain, especially cause most rooms you enter have a bunch of hostiles lol)
I'm about to start a Skyrim Special Edition playthough without using the map, compass, or map markers. I'll only use the Clairvoyance spell to guide me to places if I need it. Skyrim's journal makes me play the game with only a few active quest at a time.
I agree with you. I like having a marker on the map to tell me where to go, but NPCs don't even tell you where they're sending you many times. All we get is, "I'll mark the location on your map." I also don't like that the "journal" is just a brief synopsis and some bullet-points telling you what you need to do. Something in between Morrowind and Skyrim would be great. Make the NPCs describe what they want you to find and the location they're sending you to. Then have optional map and floating markers (which should be toggleable in the settings) to help the player get around. The way they have it in Skyrim, if you turn off the markers, you'll never find what you're looking for. They give you no information to go off of.
Another big problem, quests break unless markers are followed in specific order.
Has Gopher made a video discussing the issue about games nowadays using QTE? I would like to see Gopher's views of that subject.
I'm cool with most map markers, but I really don't like when in a quest or mission about investigation and finding something and it tells you where it is just utterly confuses me. If I'm supposed to be looking for and finding something, then why tell me where it is? Doesn't that make the 'find' part of the quest pointless? If I magically already know where it is then why does the game try to tell you that your 'looking' for something?
Its all about options can I turn if off and on or can I easily remove or hide a hand holding element and I agree with you on the journal I would like to have map icons that show locations not specifics people or chest with a good journal that explains all information
I don't mind the "Marked on map" concept myself. I think it's a pretty smart way of doing it, but maybe have an option to completely disable the floating markers, and the markers on the compass for the players who want to rely on the map itself by bringing it up; or those who want to rely on the journal for directions. I know there's an option in Skyrim to disable floating markers, and I suppose you can simply deselect the quest if you don't want the markers at all, but the journal doesn't provide enough information for new players without knowledge of the quests and locations for that to be completely viable.
One thing you missed there Gopher, it is the developers making it easier for themselves, but it is also the insane deadlines we get on projects. Usually the features you see are simpler, not just to build a greater audience, but to save time.
Also, the floating map markers etc. could easily be fixed by adding them to the options. I think the Witcher 3 is a great example, because they set themselves up for a massive time-constraint, but they released an update later on after the community feedback that gave users the option to turn off certain UI features they didn't want
I enjoy the minimalist way - Less hand holding more work and reward.
That said I didn't enjoy the Morrowind Quest Journal. I might have been to young back then but none of my 4 characters ever finished the main story. I just got lost with the side quests.
Developers shouldn't point players at an object or npc. An area and some clues will suffice. The players will work it out and feel great about doing so.
I like having options, and enjoy the choice to hide the HUD and UI. My issue is not that games have, say Map Markers, but when that is the only option. Sometimes I like it; sometimes I prefer to slip it, but I prefer to have the choice.
That what makes dark souls and bloodbourne so special to me because you explore the world you dont just run to x every cut scean. Acually looking at the detail and entering the world
Map markers make sense, because logically, if a quest giver gives you a quest, generally they're going to know the location and thus they'd be able to mark the location on your map. Quest markers are the real terrors as they kill exploration.
I don't know if my opinion will add anything to this discussion, but I still felt like putting it out there even though it might be wrong in certain areas.
Developers now spend a lot of time on the actual aesthetics of maps. In a way, they are investing time into it and do not want to lose that initial investment. That being said, I want to mention how quest journals, unfortunately, take away a players eyes from the scenery and into "books" (this can be any form of reading of any length).
Now let's assume there isn't actual "dumbing it down" by devs and that that change has been purposeful as to enjoy and emphasize the playing experience more than to the immersion and "lose yourself in the books" type of gaming pleasure. To resume, less time reading, more time playing (actively).
The next step would be tailoring an experience for the masses, which is an impossible feat in itself given the vast diversity of the masses. Some love the reading and lore of games while prefer bashing troll heads with maces on repeat. An interesting look at this would be real-life role playing of your characters. Being a barbarian natured being might make you a little bit less "receptive" mind wise, thus the whole "*grunt* I hit with axe to fix it" situation. On the other hand we'd have savant mages that believe in the power of knowledge. Yet again, the impass is everyone is different. And it comes back to what Gopher said, if you enjoy playing X way, more power to you.
Then comes modding... this is the actual tailoring of a game to suit your enjoyment. The blockade in that one: not everyone mods.
It all comes down to "damned if you do, damned if you don't". It is difficult to pinpoint a cause when the factors are seemingly infinite.
Last little tid bit; I personally agree with the maps for random dungeons being available from the get-go. These should be entirely explorable and a map can be made as a character progresses through that aforementioned dungeon. There "could" be a skill/ability that gives you more clarity in your mapping capabilities (e.g.: napkin map VS professionally drawn map from measured data). But that's just another solution for masking the reality of this issue.
P.s.: DANG, I wrote a lot... but also noticed that deeper I went down the rabbit hole, the more open-ended thoughts I gave off.
Gopher, for immersion I can really recommend trying out playing without the player marker also. That is, when you bring up the map you don't actually see where you are located on the map, but you have to try to pinpoint your location by looking at your environment and nearby locations. It works great in Skyrim and ad a lot to the feeling of immersion and feeling "lost" in the wilderness sometimes without always knowing where you are by some gps system. Fallout can have a bit too cluttered environment to get a good overview though, but can be worth trying there also.
Of course I assume you know of the mod, but Better Quest Objectives for Skyrim is also a great mod that ads more detailed quest descriptions that goes very well with playing without quest markers.
I always had a problem with the Miscellaneous quests. Specifically, I had issue with them calling it "Miscellaneous", thereby signifying these quests are inferior to the other side-quests available, and that always annoyed me: they may not be as important in the grand scheme, but I accepted them - they're just as important to me as the main quest line, else I'd be doing that right now.
I still remember the great printed maps that came with some classic games like the Bards Tale Series, back when a folded cloth map was included in the game box :)
It always bothered me how when someone tells you that a person you're looking for is in a specific town and your character immediately knows their precise location.
Things have gone down hill since Zork.
Although I do remember Ultima 4 coming with a cloth map that you had to compare to the screen to work out what was going on, with the rare 'viewing gems' to help out.
The floating markers, in particular, annoy me. As you said, how do you know it just happens to be on that guy, or in that chest...
Map markers I have no problem with, as Gopher says, it makes sense that if someone gives you a quest rather than give you elaborate directions they'll show you on the map and I only see them when I open my map to find the way. As for the floating markers, I prefer having them turned off personally and only refer to local map markers when I really can't find what I'm looking for.
I just finished a replay of Ultima 7: The Black Gate and Ultima 7 Part II: Serpent Isle. Those games are no joke. They blew me away when I was a teenager and they still do 23 years later. Unless you find a map--an actual in-game map--you can't pull it up on the screen. Unless you have a sextant, you can see where on the map you are. Fast travel is not some meta function but is only possible by in-game means and it's far more limited (unless you find the magic carpet in Ultima 7 then you don't really need fast travel at all ;). Those games are super challenging and the writing is awesome. I know that Todd Howard was a big Ultima 7 fan, but since Morrowind you would never know it. It's hard to be immersed when the dialogue and journal system is built around having the map markers and fast-travel. NPC's don't give meaningful directions because the developers know there are map markers. The landscapes are bland because they know most people are going to fast-travel right over them. Compare the vanilla landscapes of Morrowind where fast-travel was limited to Oblivion where it was far easier.
as always, a great look at a complicated subject. Bravo Gopher.
Honestly, if I don't have something pointing me the right way in a game I just end up wandering in circles with no clear idea of where I'm going.
And I know some people simply see this as a challenge, but to me it's just plain frustrating, having a fairly shoddy memory and a poor sense of direction I can end up lost for just about forever with no option but to retrace my steps if I can and find my way back to where I started so I can try another direction.
So for me, map markers are pretty vital to making my game a lot less frustrating then it needs to be.
Also going for fast travel, I feel that the problem becomes even bigger given that some RPGs, like Skyrim, absolutely bombard you with quests. That way, singular objectives lose a certain feeling of importance, and given information becomes scattered and confused. Add that to the fact that some quests require you to go completely across the huge map, and you have players leaving quests for later, forgetting them, and they lose their importance. That way, it's commonplace to open your map and randomly come across this one mission you don't even know who gave you and where until you read some sort of summary, but you know that doing it will reward you so you just go there anyway. If you ask me, it's the definition of "bigger =/= better", and one of the faults of people expecting massive games when they don't really have to be.