As a LOTR hyper-nerd, you’re only mildly correct. Faramir had the dream twice, then Boromir had it once. They both went to their father and asked him what it meant, telling the brothers Imladris was the home of Elrond the half-elven, greatest of lore masters. Faramir felt he should go but Boromir insisted he go, and begrudgingly was allowed to by Denethor his father / steward of Gondor.
Also Gimli wasn’t the one bearing the message of the deal Sauron’s messenger bore (to get the ring from Bilbo in exchange for the remaining Dwarven rings that still existed and that Moria would be theirs forever), it was his father Gloin
Walk, I think Boromir said the dream came to his brother "often", which I read as a lot. I would suggest a lot more than twice - seems to me he had it many times. And then Boromir throws in at the end that - afterwards it came once to him as well. Tolkien never tells us the truth, so we only have Boromir's word here... but I always felt that he never had the dream. And seeing what a baller Faramir is in the books (awesome leader, super courageous, great fighter) seems to me Denethor is the reason he never left for Rivendell. Just a guess on my part, of course. What are your thoughts?
Agreed. I left a lot out, like Gloin, just trying to be quick. I LOVE the council of Elrond in the book... and wish the movie was a bit more like it. The thing that I like the most that they left out was Bilbo. He is a ROCKSTAR in the book. He volunteers to destroy the ring, he sticks up for Aragorn, he is epic!
Also I listen to the Council of Elrond almost every night to fall asleep so I know basically every word of the chapter lol I love it too. If you haven’t heard Phil Dragash’s soundscape audiobook renditions you need to listen asap. LOTR movie music, sound effects and voices are done legitimately perfectly.
That's awesome. I will definitely check that audio book out. Honestly, I usually just don't get into audio books for some reason.... they just don't click for me like reading or movies. But that sounds awesome!
But if the roles were reversed, then Faramir may not have driven Frodo to leave the Fellowship at the right time as Boromir did, and when Frodo came through Ithilien he would be captured by Boromir instead of Faramir, and Boromir would not have let him go. So there was a higher power at work that let Boromir go in his stead.
@calebklingerman7902, book Faramir is an absolute baller and I could see him successfully leading Sam and Frodo to Mt Doom as the main hero there, allowing Aragorn to go to Minas Tirith and be the hero there. Would be an interesting juxtaposition between the two heroes. But I actually like your ideas better.... that it all worked out in the end by divine providence just the way it was meant to be. I could jump on board with that idea!
Interesting ''what-if', but I think it falls apart way too easy. Think about it: wasn't Faramir meant to station in left bank Ithilien and defend that remote area as a Captain of Gondor, while Boromir was likely a General holding right bank defensive positions with whatever's left from Gondor's main army? What he's even supposed to do that close to Mordor when Cair Andros-Osgiliath frontline is so crucial to Minas Tirith and Ithilien clearly not?
And his death would not have push Aragorn to accept his place as a King. Probably other stuff would have happened, but I’m just here to defend my boy Boromir.
@@gonzaloortega5481 Well, in the books Aragorn has zero doubt that he is going to Monas Tirith to lead the free peoples and eventually reclaim the throne.
Deep, I am picking oh him pretty good here :) I actually agree with you 100%. In the book, I found him to be unlikeable.... but also very noble, very smart, super good at his job, a good ruler, and generally a lot more sympathetic than in the movie. Movie Denethor is almost a monster! Staring down Sauron in a Palantir and mostly winning... night after night... BALLER! Saruman only lasted like 10 seconds!
Big D is a very poor father and leader, though. His secrecy and pride and passivity nearly destroyed Gondor. And he cuts Faramir to pieces repeatedly in book and movie.
He’s pretty shitty in the books too dude. Especially to Faramir. And I always understood Faramir as being what Boromir was supposed to be. Such a shame that his father treated him so poorly
Truth be told, movie Boromir is my favorite character in not only the fellowship, but all middle-earth. His impacts to each character are just massive. For example, Aragorn. He is super flawed, and at the beginning of the journey this reinforces Aragorn’s prejudice against the race of men. However, as Fellowship continues, despite his flaws, Boromir teaches Aragorn how to be a leader of the flawed and the weak. He frequently takes consideration of how the hobbits are physically and emotionally. Something that Aragorn has a hard time with, being raised by elves. When, despite his lowest moment in trying to take to ring from Frodo, Boromir turns on a dime and sacrifices himself in a vane attempt to save Merry and Pippin, Aragorn has a realization that light still lives in the hearts of men. He grasps his hand as he dies and speaks to him with compassion “I will not fail OUR people.” My point is, Boromir’s problems are what give him his place in the fellowship. He is there to teach Aragorn how to lead the imperfect.
You differentiate and specify “movie Boromir”. In your opinion, is he drastically different in the book? I just rewatched Fellowship but haven’t read the books in a few years so can’t remember all the specifics.
What I like about him even more - there are several deleted scenes from extended cut of the movie which are giving entirely new meaning to his character. First of all, he didn't even wanted to go to the council because he knew about ring power over people and he was afraid of it. He was sent there by his father with a mission to retrieve the ring to be used as a weapon to defeat Sauron. So yeah, ring definitely had some influence on him, but, for example, the core reason why he tried to take ring from Frodo is not because of ring's influence, but because of his mission.
@@Black-And-WhiteWorldview8488 yes, but also keep in mind the ring was exploiting his pride. So it was definitely a fault he had, but the ring strengthened it. Tolkien was clear. He was still a good man despite his weakness.
I believe it is intended to show the difference between the two brothers. Faramir had the dream many times and earlier because he is the wiser of the two. Boromir only needed the dream once before acting though. Boromir is more of a man of action than Faramir. The two brothers are great men but lack in areas the other excels in. It also points toward Aragorn being the greatest of men, since he is both wise and a man of action, combining the best of Boromir and Faramir.
Its the small acts of kindness right? If boramir had the dream only he probably would not have taken head of the warning. Having faramir have the dream, being able to confide in his brother, showed trust. Boromir going cause his brother’s worried showed he cared about his brother’s opinions. Extra details to show how every good deed helps keep evil at bay. Then to have boromir basically say aragon is his brother and king mean even more cause there is a higher standard of what brother means.
Denethor was greatly portrayed as a “villain” you love to hate, but let’s not forget that in the books, he was a genuinely noble man who only started to succumb to a weak mind after an extended time of essentially battling Sauron and Saruman single-handily with the sheer will of his mind. It was only a matter of time before he’d crack.
It didn't help that Sauron pretty much showed Denethor only what he wanted him to see whenever Denethor used the Palantir. He was too strong to be cowed by Sauron, the dark lord had to resort to trickery and paint a picture that Mordor was much stronger than it actually was. "after an extended time of essentially battling Sauron and Saruman single-handily with the sheer will of his mind. " Yep, they (think it was pippin/gandalf) noticed a mysterious light flicker during the night from one of the windows of Denethors residence. No one really knew what that was, think Gandalf suspected something (until Denethor revealed his palantir), I think after that Gandalf put 2 and 2 together and had some KFC 🤣
I'm grateful that Boromir headed to Rivendell and not Faramir. Equally I am grateful Faramir survived the war. He's virtually as pure blooded a Numenorian as Aragorn. He loves, marries and essentially drags Eówyn out of her black depression. I have no doubt that he made a fine Steward and Prince of Ithilien. Boromir was a great warrior but I doubt that he would have made a great administrator for Ithilien. Equally, I doubt he would have more than glanced at Eówyn never mind fallen in love with her. Battle and glory was his existence.
It's a good point. Well said. I agree there is no way Boromir has time for women and marriage... he is a SOLDER thru and thru. I do wonder how Faramir would have faired with the fellowship. He is much more of a ranger type person, more of a special forces guy to me, and so much more empathetic towards others. He is such a deep thinker. I could see an alternative history where he was with the fellowship, never would have failed the test, and would have been Frodo and Sam's guide thru Mordor instead of Smeagol. I think he would have been epic in that role!
@thegreyhavens167 Having Faramir as their guide would have helped in North Ithilien undoubtedly. Whether he could have safely guided Frodo and Sam through the Dead Marshes I'm no so sure. For the stories sake, let's say he could. Assuming that he knew of the Stairs of Cirith Ungol, I have no doubt that he could have successfully got them past Shelob. Where things fall apart is the getting past the two watchers. Without Frodo being captured and the slaughter caused by the mithril shirt, you have +100 orcs to negotiate. As valiant as Faramir is, he's not pulling that one off. As soon as the watchers sound the alarm it's game over. Unless you can come up with a workable solution of course? 😊😊😊
Alright, so here's another note to think on: While book readers know that while Denethor wasn't a GREAT guy, he had spent years being challenged and influenced to despair by Sauron. Boromir meanwhile was basically an exemplar of humanity. He was beloved by so many. He was brave, strong, generous, and kind. Compassionate. And THAT is what Sauron attacked via the ring. We even see in the movies, as they are just barely on the quest before the crows of Isengard, Boromir teaching the hobbits and sparring with them, and laughing with them. His fall and sacrifice is absolutely devastating, because without Sauron's influence he is also the kind of man anyone would wish to be or know. Which is also why Boromir had to fall: to show just HOW dangerous and powerful the One Ring is. Yes, Denethor fought Sauron through the Palantir. But Boromir and the rest of the Fellowship was within a few feet of Sauron's very essence for months.
I agree. I feel they were changed. Seems to me the history of ME very often did NOT go according to plan. (Though maybe I'm just not a pre-destiny person myself ¯\_(ツ)_/¯)
@@GMSryBut how do we know that was the plan, though? Because Faramir had the dreams? All that proves is that the gods wanted to give the dreams to Faramir, not that they wanted him to go. What if they anticipated Denethor’s reluctance? What if they anticipated Boromir’s jealousy and used Faramir’s dreams to provoke it? What if they needed Boromir to go instead of Faramir? After all, it was Boromir’s weakness that forced the Fellowship to disband, which eventually thwarted Saruman’s plans, saved and restored Rohan, and allowed Faramir to help Frodo, save Gondor, and deliver the kingdom to Aragorn. Boromir’s demise was necessary. If Faramir had joined the Fellowship, what if he had died instead of Boromir? Could Boromir have done what Faramir did in his place (no, lol)? Sounds a little bit like the gods knew what they were doing, methinks.
I know it's not how the book goes... but I actually really like that scene. I think it's just good performances by the actors probably.... but it's really impactful.
Agreed. We would have been so epic. He wouldn't take the ring, would have been humble to Aragorn, and didn't immediately discount the hobbits like his brother. And instead of being a solder, he is more of a sneak special forces kinda of guy... exactly what they needed! Can you imagine a world where Aragorn could go straight on to Minas Tirith like he wanted to, and Faramir was the Sam and Frodo's guide instead of Smeagol?..... EP-IC!!!
In the books its also explained that it took Boromir about 6 months to travel to Rivendell as well as not knowing where it was. In the films it looks as if Rivendell is a 5 minute ride from Minas Tirith.
Maybe? Here's what we know for sure..... Nothing. We only know what Boromir said to the others. He said Faramir had the dream over and over and over, and then he had it one time as well. My personal read of it, he is telling a white lie and never had the dream. But even if he did once, it's clear that Faramir was the first choice.
Agreed. Still a totally good guy and heroic and admirable.... but I think his "perfect" place was in Minas Tirith and not the Fellowship. Can you imagine the attack on Minas Tirith if Boromir was there to lead the defense of the city instead of Denethor? Epic!
@@thegreyhavens167 If you were asking for my opinion, which I know you’re not. I would say that faramir has more of an “elf-air” around him like Aragorn. He may have lasted longer than Boromir with regards to the ring but like Aragorn I don’t think he would have lasted forever. I’m curious if faramir had better Ranger skills than boromir or if the were trained equally.
Not if he was ever going to be played by Sean Bean. If he was ever meant to be played by Sean Bean than Illuvater would have made sure that no matter what Tolkien would write Boromir would die.
Boromir: Hey, I'm looking for help in defending my city against Sauron Elrond: Welcome to the company, Boromir Boromir: What? No, I really just wanted a couple elf guys to help out my dad..... Elrond: Shut up and go travel half way across the world
@harrydugan8237, polite challenge to you there. Tolkien never tells us exactly what happened here, all we get is Boromir's statement at Rivendell. According to Boromir: Faramir had this cool dream over and over... and oh yeah, later he had it once too. In my mind, I always suspected that Boromir was fibbing about having the dream. That being said, even if Boromir did have it once, I would still interpret this as it was mainly Faramir's dream, he had it first, he had it many more times, and that infers to me that the gods were trying to get him to Rivendell. I dunno, what are your thoughts? Do you think I'm way off here?
@The Grey Havens I think uluvitar was trying to help the good guys out, without actually direcrly getting involved. I believe he sent the dream to Farimir, and when Farimir did not act on it right away, events caused his plan to change and sent it to Boromir.
Yep, agree 👍. I also think it was Illuvitar that was organizing it all. Divine Providence or Destiny. But my gut tells me he really wanted Faramir and that's why Boromir was the least successful of the bunch.
@@thegreyhavens167You need to read the books then. Honestly you have several misstatements. No "chance meeting" in this scene. It was the will of Eru to lead them there. Also Boromir did dream of Imaldris. He was not a villain even as you seem to imply here. Denethor mgiht bw a hard man, but he was honorable. He was ruling a dying rwce, threatened by Aragorn as he gleaned that he was Isuldur's heir and might claim the kingship of Gondor. Really what man would voluntarily step down and give power specially if yoyr family has ruled the land with the best of your abilities? He has flaws, even boik Aragorn takes insults to his honor seriously
Boromir might have lived had he let Faramir answer the call. Tolkien was such a good story writer simple easily overlooked hints left throughout his stories.
If this had been the case and Boromir stayed behind, this would have meant when Frodo was captured by Faramir then let go to complete his mission. Boromir would've took the ring for himself as he had men at his command to kill Frodo and Sam with Smegul in the forbidden pool. Tolkien was a magnificent writer and hidden plot.
I like how Sauron offered the dwarves 3 of the dwarven rings of power for what they said was just a trival ring a hobbit carried. That was a sus deal for sure
@@thegreyhavens167 Interesting,you are posting about this subject but dismiss knowledge and criticism. By all means assume you know everything but when you are corrected you should take it and grow.
Yes, the movie pronunciation as "Smee-gull" was incorrect. There's an accent over the "e" in Sméagol, which indicates both the "e" and the "a" are pronounced. "SMEE-uh-gol" is the correct pronunciation. "SMAY-uh-gol" also works.
Honestly, it's barely mentioned in the book too. I agree 👍. In my mind, he is just looking out for his little brother.... Which makes his end even more tragic and admirable. He's not only protecting Merry and Pip and Gondor, but essentially his little brother too.
There’s various reasons as to why faramir going probably would’ve resulted in failure. Boromir would have never had his character arc from being almost turned by the ring to giving his life for the fellowship, thus Aragorn wouldn’t have seen true hope for change in the race of men, and wouldn’t have worried about helping Gondor and returning to the throne of Arnor. Boromir was always supposed to go regardless of the fact that faramir saw it in his dreams more than once, so did Boromir
Boromir had the dream. And if I had not tried to take the ring, frodo may not have left the group. And if he had not met faramir, he may not have made it. So who knows, but I do think this is the one case where people did not get the instructions correct.
I mostly agree, though hard to say. It's kinda weird to me to say "that's how it happened and so that's how it needed to happen" but I get it. Your not wrong! Though in my personal opinion, how do we know Boromir actually had the dream? He said Faramir had it and told him about it night after night after night... and then he had it one time too. Honestly, I always pictured it that he was telling a white lie and never had the dream, really. What do you think?
In the book, Gimli WASN'T on the council! His father, Gloin, was. He sat next to Frodo and had a little chitchat about Bilbo and Erebor and stuff IIRC. Gloin then sent his son or proposed his son as a member of the fellowship - honestly I don't remember exactly.
As some else said, both brothers had the dream. Faramir had it twice and Boromir had it once. I personally think he may have made that up so he would have more leverage for going himself. Though their are a couple of other points to consider, he was worried about Faramir being able to successfully make that journey(though this too might be more of an ego thing), but the most important point in favor of Boromir is that he and Faramir were very close too each other and as the big brother, Boromir may really have been close enough to Faramir that he truly was worried and he truly had that dream after Faramir had it because of that connection. Also, considering I believe the dream was sent by one of the Vala (or maybe even Eru Illuvatar) in order to underscore to the brothers that this was real and it was important. I can sort of hear Boromir on first hearing about the dream from Faramir becoming a little condescending and at first not giving it much thought until he, too, dreamt the same thing. Then, as he was already quite prideful wanted to get this special task of contact with the elves who no longer visited Gondor. Either way it worked out for the best, because if Faramir had gone then Boromir would have been the one to catch Frodo, Sam and Gollum and I doubt he have let the hobbits go forward. He’d have taken them to Denethor, again, for his father’s praise. And he’d likely have had Gollum kill while Gollum was fishing. That’s assuming he didn’t have the prisoners searched (due to the ring calling out to him) and he’d have found the ring, found out what it really was and tried to use it. And that would have ended the third book a bit sooner. And not for the better. Just good for thought and worth what you paid for it, JTI
I never thought about it that way. I’ve read the book a lot, but I never considered that Faramir being more connected to that dream might mean that he was meant to be in the fellowship.
Well your just WRONG that Boromir is your favorite.... because BILBO IS THE BEST 🤣🤣 OK, if we are being honest I like Boromir as well (don't tell him I said that). He is super relatable. He's not a half-elf prince or eternal wizard.... he's just a person. I really relate to him. Too bad he doesn't get a chance to accomplish more.
If Boromir had remained in Gondor, he may have rode his men to Helms Deep in their hour of need. He may have also succumbed entirely to the ring when capturing Frodo, Sam & Gollum. Merry & Pippin may not have survived without Boromir either, Faramir was a good captain but Boromir was a great warrior. They needed him in the end to survive the onslaught of orcs.
Did Tolkien have any (older) brothers, and if so, did he have a difficult relationship with them? Because, while I don't care for biographical readings in general, he certainly seemed to be working out some sort of personal grudges or grievances in the Boromir-Faramir and Saruman-Gandalf contrasts, with the top dogs being portrayed as deeply flawed and their one-step-below counterparts being portrayed as oh-so-much better. Or perhaps Tolkien had issues with whoever the head of the English faculty at Oxford was, and felt that he, Tolkien, was more deserving of the role.
Bucket, all of this is from the trilogy in the Council of Elrond chapter. We actually don't know anything about the dream except what Boromir tells us... so we only have his perspective on it. Here is what he says: * His brother Faramir had this dream, sent by the gods, to come to Rivendell * He had it over and over, night after night, and wished to go, but he couldn't * Some time later, Boromir also had the dream one time * Boromir decided to go, and no one could really tell him no because he is a baller So we don't know for sure that it was Denethor that would not let Faramir go - that's just an educated guess on my part. But it's pretty clear that Eru (God) sent the dream and called Faramir to Rivendell. But why then did Boromir also have the dream? Two ideas: 1) Could be that he was Eru's second choice when Faramir didn't go 2) My personal view, Boromir was never chosen and never had the dream. He told a white lie. Essentially, he was being a good older brother and went for Faramir. You could totally read it either way. There is no indication of which is true, and Tolkien never mentions it anywhere else. What do you think?
@thegreyhavens167 Thank you so much for the in depth explanation! I love Lotr but am pretty stupid when it comes to lore,so watching your videos teach me so much!
I have been watching these shorts for a few days and now I have a massive urge to go back to Skyrim. Thanks, I suppose. Jokes aside, now I'm also angry at their father. I mean. Angrier than I was before. I'm glad he died. He was a terrible human.
Glad you liked the videos!!! ＼（〇◡ｏ）／ Don't do it! By the nine divines do NOT fire up Skyrim!!! You know if you play for more than a couple hours..... many months of your life will suddenly disappear..... we've all been there, my friend. Stay strong. "Do come baaack..."
@@thegreyhavens167 lmao maybe if I can hold it off till I finish my current game (a plague tale: requiem. Amazing piece of work), I will not feel bad about losing months of my life xD
Nice. I LOVED the first Plague Tale game... and thought the sequel was really good too. I was really surprised more people don't talk about these games more. The scenery is great, the setting is EPIC, they look beautiful, the female lead (in particular) is written really well, and honestly the relationship between the brother and sister is very unique in gaming. It's great stuff. ALSO GIANT WAVES OF RATS ARE EPIC!!!!!!! AHGHHHHHHH
Yep, most Tolkien scholars dont go as deep into the Middle Earth financial systems as I do. In truth the 3rd age international economic markets anchored themselves to the USD to hedge against the extreme volatility of the Mordorian Franc. (Yep, that's right. Barad-dur should properly be pronounced with a French accent 🤷)
Someone that listens to The fellowship of the Ring every night before I sleep. To help me drift off into Dreamland. You're wrong boromir also has a dream. He tells elrond that he had a dream involving a halfling. And then he says my brother also had the dream. And it wasn't a dream to go to rivendell it was just a dream concerning the sword that was broken and the halfling. His father said seek out elderon who was great in the ways of lore.
@danielmorgan4134, well said. Thanks for the great comment. But let me politely challenge you here: * Where I agree with you: Boromir says Faramir had it first and very often, and then later he had it one time as well. * Where I disagree with you: we don't "know" that Boromir had the dream. We only know that he "said" he had the dream. Totally different. Tolkien, Gandalf, etc... no one else confirms it. All we have is Boromir's word. Keep in mind that 99% of Tolkien's works are told from the view point of a potentially unreliable narrator, which is what makes it feel so realistic and like actual mythology! Love it! So you could be right, but could also be wrong. I personally think he was telling a white lie the whole time (like he did several times at Amon Hen). I think he's an awesome and noble character and doing it for good reasons, but still a lie nonetheless. What do you think? Am I crazy here?
@@thegreyhavens167 I don't know... but I'm sitting here imagining Frodo and Sam continued as planned, and were picked up in Ithilien by Boromir, this time. We all know how that would've gone down. But assuming Faramir tried to guide Frodo, he may not have been willing to lead him through Cirith Ungol. I think Middle Earth providence meant for exactly this to happen. It either marked Faramir as worthy, or couldn't communicate with Bormir as easily at all, but anticipated that Denethor would send out Boromir. In coming to Faramir, it was perhaps hinting to the Wise that he could be trusted when they arrived in Gondor to find Denethor as he was.
NO WAYYYY Faramir would have made the perfect fellowship and it probably wouldnt have broken and ended with the attack of the urukhai and the kidnapping of merry and pipin. Can you just imagine them making the whole thing together like one big dnd party? 😂😂
It was Boromir who had to go, Faramir, being apprentise to a wizard, was too wise to be manipulated by the ring, wouldnt attack Frodo, and the quest will be even further jeopardised. So Boromir the soldier had to go just to attack Frodo.
Should it be read as the fellowship would have worked - or gone differently - if Faramir was there (opening though to speculation that the whole task could fail and bring ruin to the Middle Earth), or that Boromir took for himself the deadly path of that role instead of his brother? Either ways, Boromir has always been my favourite 🤙
Maybe it was divine providence that Boromir was chosen because if Faramir had gone to Rivendell, he might be the one who is beheaded in King's Landing..
Honestly, my guess is NOPE. He said that he wrote the story front to back in order, without making a sketch of where it was going or what the ending would be or anything. No outline... but just let the story "unfold itself in the telling". I don't know if that's 100% truth or not, but that's what he said. If so... just all kinda happened??? Legend....
I agree... heart breaking. In my mind I really feel that Boromir was just looking out for his little brother, and trying to do the right thing. Honestly he fails at times but also makes a great sacrifice not only for the world and his country and two hobbits, but ultimately for his little brother. 🥹
Agreed 100%. Can you imagine the defense of Minas Tirith if Boromir was there to defend it and lead it's armies? EPIC!!!! I also feel Faramir would have been an amazing guide for Frodo and Sam. I could imagine him guiding them to Mordor instead of Smeagol. What do you think?
If Faramir went to Rivendel ... The quest would have failed. In Ithiliën when captured by the Rangers, Boromir in charge instead of Faramir, would have brought the ring home. That would have caused major problems.. Never would he have called Aragorn, my brother, my captain, my king
I get it. Assuming everything would go the same way it went your totally right to say that. Though I doubt Boromir would ever have been in Ithilien. But I propose a different path: Faramir seems like he would have been an AWESOME guide for Frodo and Sam into Mordor instead of Gollum. No Smeagol needed!!! He is super resistant to the ring, has humility towards the hobbits, is a special forces kinda of sneaky good fighter, and more knowledgeable than anyone in the party save Aragorn. And with him leading the ring, might have allowed Aragorn to go straight to Gondor like he wished. I mean can you imagine the defense of Minas Tirith if Boromir and Aragorn were both there to lead the armies.... Legendary!!!!
@ask-i-memnudizi6791, That's a fair statement, but only if you take everything at face value. We dont know anything about the dream except what Boromir told us. Gandalf, Tolkien, Elrond, etc never tell us anything about it. Boromir said Faramir had the dream night after night after night.... and then he had it once too. 1) I personally, always suspected that Boromir might be telling a small lie here. Did he really have it? I think he is just being a good big brother here. 2) Even if he did, the gods first choice is clearly Faramir, and Boromir is a best second. That's how I read it. What are your thoughts?
As a LOTR hyper-nerd, you’re only mildly correct. Faramir had the dream twice, then Boromir had it once. They both went to their father and asked him what it meant, telling the brothers Imladris was the home of Elrond the half-elven, greatest of lore masters. Faramir felt he should go but Boromir insisted he go, and begrudgingly was allowed to by Denethor his father / steward of Gondor.
Also Gimli wasn’t the one bearing the message of the deal Sauron’s messenger bore (to get the ring from Bilbo in exchange for the remaining Dwarven rings that still existed and that Moria would be theirs forever), it was his father Gloin
Walk, I think Boromir said the dream came to his brother "often", which I read as a lot. I would suggest a lot more than twice - seems to me he had it many times. And then Boromir throws in at the end that - afterwards it came once to him as well.
Tolkien never tells us the truth, so we only have Boromir's word here... but I always felt that he never had the dream. And seeing what a baller Faramir is in the books (awesome leader, super courageous, great fighter) seems to me Denethor is the reason he never left for Rivendell. Just a guess on my part, of course.
What are your thoughts?
Agreed. I left a lot out, like Gloin, just trying to be quick.
I LOVE the council of Elrond in the book... and wish the movie was a bit more like it. The thing that I like the most that they left out was Bilbo. He is a ROCKSTAR in the book. He volunteers to destroy the ring, he sticks up for Aragorn, he is epic!
Also I listen to the Council of Elrond almost every night to fall asleep so I know basically every word of the chapter lol I love it too. If you haven’t heard Phil Dragash’s soundscape audiobook renditions you need to listen asap. LOTR movie music, sound effects and voices are done legitimately perfectly.
That's awesome. I will definitely check that audio book out. Honestly, I usually just don't get into audio books for some reason.... they just don't click for me like reading or movies. But that sounds awesome!
But if the roles were reversed, then Faramir may not have driven Frodo to leave the Fellowship at the right time as Boromir did, and when Frodo came through Ithilien he would be captured by Boromir instead of Faramir, and Boromir would not have let him go. So there was a higher power at work that let Boromir go in his stead.
@calebklingerman7902, book Faramir is an absolute baller and I could see him successfully leading Sam and Frodo to Mt Doom as the main hero there, allowing Aragorn to go to Minas Tirith and be the hero there. Would be an interesting juxtaposition between the two heroes.
But I actually like your ideas better.... that it all worked out in the end by divine providence just the way it was meant to be. I could jump on board with that idea!
Interesting ''what-if', but I think it falls apart way too easy. Think about it: wasn't Faramir meant to station in left bank Ithilien and defend that remote area as a Captain of Gondor, while Boromir was likely a General holding right bank defensive positions with whatever's left from Gondor's main army? What he's even supposed to do that close to Mordor when Cair Andros-Osgiliath frontline is so crucial to Minas Tirith and Ithilien clearly not?
And his death would not have push Aragorn to accept his place as a King. Probably other stuff would have happened, but I’m just here to defend my boy Boromir.
@@gonzaloortega5481 Well, in the books Aragorn has zero doubt that he is going to Monas Tirith to lead the free peoples and eventually reclaim the throne.
@@thegreyhavens167book Faramir was one of my favourite characters, because he was a fuckin genius
Denethor gets too much flak, because of his portrayal in the movies. But mentally battling Sauron and Saruman definitely took their toll on Denethor.
Deep, I am picking oh him pretty good here :)
I actually agree with you 100%. In the book, I found him to be unlikeable.... but also very noble, very smart, super good at his job, a good ruler, and generally a lot more sympathetic than in the movie. Movie Denethor is almost a monster!
Staring down Sauron in a Palantir and mostly winning... night after night... BALLER! Saruman only lasted like 10 seconds!
Big D is a very poor father and leader, though. His secrecy and pride and passivity nearly destroyed Gondor. And he cuts Faramir to pieces repeatedly in book and movie.
@@jackcoleman5955rip big d
He’s pretty shitty in the books too dude. Especially to Faramir. And I always understood Faramir as being what Boromir was supposed to be. Such a shame that his father treated him so poorly
Yeah but that tomato will forever haunt me.
Truth be told, movie Boromir is my favorite character in not only the fellowship, but all middle-earth. His impacts to each character are just massive.
For example, Aragorn. He is super flawed, and at the beginning of the journey this reinforces Aragorn’s prejudice against the race of men. However, as Fellowship continues, despite his flaws, Boromir teaches Aragorn how to be a leader of the flawed and the weak. He frequently takes consideration of how the hobbits are physically and emotionally. Something that Aragorn has a hard time with, being raised by elves. When, despite his lowest moment in trying to take to ring from Frodo, Boromir turns on a dime and sacrifices himself in a vane attempt to save Merry and Pippin, Aragorn has a realization that light still lives in the hearts of men. He grasps his hand as he dies and speaks to him with compassion “I will not fail OUR people.”
My point is, Boromir’s problems are what give him his place in the fellowship. He is there to teach Aragorn how to lead the imperfect.
This is a very insightful and heartfelt analysis. Thank you.
You differentiate and specify “movie Boromir”. In your opinion, is he drastically different in the book? I just rewatched Fellowship but haven’t read the books in a few years so can’t remember all the specifics.
What I like about him even more - there are several deleted scenes from extended cut of the movie which are giving entirely new meaning to his character. First of all, he didn't even wanted to go to the council because he knew about ring power over people and he was afraid of it. He was sent there by his father with a mission to retrieve the ring to be used as a weapon to defeat Sauron. So yeah, ring definitely had some influence on him, but, for example, the core reason why he tried to take ring from Frodo is not because of ring's influence, but because of his mission.
Boromir went of his own free will in his brother's place because he thought he was protecting him. Boromir was a true hero.
Most of all he was a sympathetic character in the end
His heart was in the right place. His downfall was thinking too highly of himself.
@@fragtagninja1633 So basically his pride soon got the best of him, correct?
@@Black-And-WhiteWorldview8488 yes, but also keep in mind the ring was exploiting his pride. So it was definitely a fault he had, but the ring strengthened it. Tolkien was clear. He was still a good man despite his weakness.
Boromir might have had flaws, but he was a chad either way.
I believe it is intended to show the difference between the two brothers. Faramir had the dream many times and earlier because he is the wiser of the two. Boromir only needed the dream once before acting though. Boromir is more of a man of action than Faramir. The two brothers are great men but lack in areas the other excels in. It also points toward Aragorn being the greatest of men, since he is both wise and a man of action, combining the best of Boromir and Faramir.
Its the small acts of kindness right? If boramir had the dream only he probably would not have taken head of the warning. Having faramir have the dream, being able to confide in his brother, showed trust. Boromir going cause his brother’s worried showed he cared about his brother’s opinions.
Extra details to show how every good deed helps keep evil at bay.
Then to have boromir basically say aragon is his brother and king mean even more cause there is a higher standard of what brother means.
God damn it, I was not prepared for that "Smeagol is free" you threw in there....
Facts!😂
Nah this is the way scared the bejezus outta me
Smeagol got colours? Who gave him colours?
Denethor was greatly portrayed as a “villain” you love to hate, but let’s not forget that in the books, he was a genuinely noble man who only started to succumb to a weak mind after an extended time of essentially battling Sauron and Saruman single-handily with the sheer will of his mind. It was only a matter of time before he’d crack.
It didn't help that Sauron pretty much showed Denethor only what he wanted him to see whenever Denethor used the Palantir. He was too strong to be cowed by Sauron, the dark lord had to resort to trickery and paint a picture that Mordor was much stronger than it actually was.
"after an extended time of essentially battling Sauron and Saruman single-handily with the sheer will of his mind. "
Yep, they (think it was pippin/gandalf) noticed a mysterious light flicker during the night from one of the windows of Denethors residence. No one really knew what that was, think Gandalf suspected something (until Denethor revealed his palantir), I think after that Gandalf put 2 and 2 together and had some KFC 🤣
They don't just show up randomly there were several scenes in the films showing why they were going to the meeting
Boromir was a good man with a far to soft heart for the task ahead. I seriously love his character.
I'm grateful that Boromir headed to Rivendell and not Faramir. Equally I am grateful Faramir survived the war. He's virtually as pure blooded a Numenorian as Aragorn. He loves, marries and essentially drags Eówyn out of her black depression. I have no doubt that he made a fine Steward and Prince of Ithilien.
Boromir was a great warrior but I doubt that he would have made a great administrator for Ithilien. Equally, I doubt he would have more than glanced at Eówyn never mind fallen in love with her. Battle and glory was his existence.
It's a good point. Well said. I agree there is no way Boromir has time for women and marriage... he is a SOLDER thru and thru.
I do wonder how Faramir would have faired with the fellowship. He is much more of a ranger type person, more of a special forces guy to me, and so much more empathetic towards others. He is such a deep thinker. I could see an alternative history where he was with the fellowship, never would have failed the test, and would have been Frodo and Sam's guide thru Mordor instead of Smeagol. I think he would have been epic in that role!
@thegreyhavens167 Having Faramir as their guide would have helped in North Ithilien undoubtedly. Whether he could have safely guided Frodo and Sam through the Dead Marshes I'm no so sure. For the stories sake, let's say he could. Assuming that he knew of the Stairs of Cirith Ungol, I have no doubt that he could have successfully got them past Shelob. Where things fall apart is the getting past the two watchers. Without Frodo being captured and the slaughter caused by the mithril shirt, you have +100 orcs to negotiate. As valiant as Faramir is, he's not pulling that one off. As soon as the watchers sound the alarm it's game over. Unless you can come up with a workable solution of course? 😊😊😊
as punishment it cost denethor his favorite son. tldr when eru has a plan fucken go with it
💯 👍 Best comment ever!!!
Fr
Alright, so here's another note to think on:
While book readers know that while Denethor wasn't a GREAT guy, he had spent years being challenged and influenced to despair by Sauron.
Boromir meanwhile was basically an exemplar of humanity. He was beloved by so many. He was brave, strong, generous, and kind. Compassionate. And THAT is what Sauron attacked via the ring.
We even see in the movies, as they are just barely on the quest before the crows of Isengard, Boromir teaching the hobbits and sparring with them, and laughing with them.
His fall and sacrifice is absolutely devastating, because without Sauron's influence he is also the kind of man anyone would wish to be or know.
Which is also why Boromir had to fall: to show just HOW dangerous and powerful the One Ring is. Yes, Denethor fought Sauron through the Palantir. But Boromir and the rest of the Fellowship was within a few feet of Sauron's very essence for months.
“Sméagol is free!” took me out 😂 I haven’t laughed that hard at a throwaway comment on a TH-cam short in a LONG time
Awww yeah!! (ノ^_^)ノ. Didn't even know you needed this type of Tolkien fun 😎🤣
Glad you liked the video. Thanks for the nice comment.
Nobody talking about the sound effects but I’m dying laughing 😂😂
I'm enjoying these discussions years after the movies came out.
Shows you how good these movies, this is coming from someone who's read the books 3 times.
You know the gods really suck if a single man can counter their plans by saying no.
Agreed.... Especially if that man is just Boromir 🙄🙄🙄
Ah, but did he counter their plans?
@@NomosCharis Yes, since the plan was to get Faramir to Rivendell to join the Fellowship.
I agree. I feel they were changed. Seems to me the history of ME very often did NOT go according to plan.
(Though maybe I'm just not a pre-destiny person myself ¯\_(ツ)_/¯)
@@GMSryBut how do we know that was the plan, though? Because Faramir had the dreams? All that proves is that the gods wanted to give the dreams to Faramir, not that they wanted him to go.
What if they anticipated Denethor’s reluctance? What if they anticipated Boromir’s jealousy and used Faramir’s dreams to provoke it? What if they needed Boromir to go instead of Faramir?
After all, it was Boromir’s weakness that forced the Fellowship to disband, which eventually thwarted Saruman’s plans, saved and restored Rohan, and allowed Faramir to help Frodo, save Gondor, and deliver the kingdom to Aragorn. Boromir’s demise was necessary.
If Faramir had joined the Fellowship, what if he had died instead of Boromir? Could Boromir have done what Faramir did in his place (no, lol)?
Sounds a little bit like the gods knew what they were doing, methinks.
In the books Faramir doesnt even want the ring
Denethor - The Best Dad in Middle Earth!!
🏆🏆🏆
🤣. To be fair, slightly better dad in the book I guess 🤷
Remember this day little brother... Today,life is good!!!
I know it's not how the book goes... but I actually really like that scene. I think it's just good performances by the actors probably.... but it's really impactful.
I wish Faramir would have been in the fellowship
Agreed. We would have been so epic. He wouldn't take the ring, would have been humble to Aragorn, and didn't immediately discount the hobbits like his brother. And instead of being a solder, he is more of a sneak special forces kinda of guy... exactly what they needed! Can you imagine a world where Aragorn could go straight on to Minas Tirith like he wanted to, and Faramir was the Sam and Frodo's guide instead of Smeagol?..... EP-IC!!!
In the books its also explained that it took Boromir about 6 months to travel to Rivendell as well as not knowing where it was. In the films it looks as if Rivendell is a 5 minute ride from Minas Tirith.
Boromir had that dream too
Maybe? Here's what we know for sure..... Nothing. We only know what Boromir said to the others. He said Faramir had the dream over and over and over, and then he had it one time as well. My personal read of it, he is telling a white lie and never had the dream. But even if he did once, it's clear that Faramir was the first choice.
"yes, they all just 'randomly' showed up at Rivendell..."
- Eru
🤣🤣🤣🤣. Best comment ever!!!!!!
🙇
Makes sense why he was the only one to die
Agreed. Still a totally good guy and heroic and admirable.... but I think his "perfect" place was in Minas Tirith and not the Fellowship. Can you imagine the attack on Minas Tirith if Boromir was there to lead the defense of the city instead of Denethor? Epic!
the irony is that boromir might have lived through the war of the ring if faramir had been the one to go to rivendell.
Dr Cane, yeah that's an interesting thought. I think I agree with you!!
How do you think Faramir would have done in the Fellowship?
@@thegreyhavens167
If you were asking for my opinion, which I know you’re not. I would say that faramir has more of an “elf-air” around him like Aragorn. He may have lasted longer than Boromir with regards to the ring but like Aragorn I don’t think he would have lasted forever. I’m curious if faramir had better Ranger skills than boromir or if the were trained equally.
Not if he was ever going to be played by Sean Bean. If he was ever meant to be played by Sean Bean than Illuvater would have made sure that no matter what Tolkien would write Boromir would die.
It's ok cuz boromir had his ultimate and beautiful arc because he was part of the fellow ship. My favorite character 😢
I love Learning the lore piece by piece thank you and to all the lortr fans
Just Saw the three films like 3 days ago and you legit answer all my questions After the movies
Aw yeah!! That's super awesome. Glad you liked the vids!
Broimir: “I never should have come here!”
Why do I suddenly hear the Skyrim fight music start playing in the background ? 😂
Boromir: Hey, I'm looking for help in defending my city against Sauron
Elrond: Welcome to the company, Boromir
Boromir: What? No, I really just wanted a couple elf guys to help out my dad.....
Elrond: Shut up and go travel half way across the world
Actually, Boromir did have the dream as well. Boromir said the dream came to His brother then later the same dream came to him
@harrydugan8237, polite challenge to you there. Tolkien never tells us exactly what happened here, all we get is Boromir's statement at Rivendell. According to Boromir: Faramir had this cool dream over and over... and oh yeah, later he had it once too. In my mind, I always suspected that Boromir was fibbing about having the dream.
That being said, even if Boromir did have it once, I would still interpret this as it was mainly Faramir's dream, he had it first, he had it many more times, and that infers to me that the gods were trying to get him to Rivendell. I dunno, what are your thoughts? Do you think I'm way off here?
@The Grey Havens I think uluvitar was trying to help the good guys out, without actually direcrly getting involved. I believe he sent the dream to Farimir, and when Farimir did not act on it right away, events caused his plan to change and sent it to Boromir.
Yep, agree 👍. I also think it was Illuvitar that was organizing it all. Divine Providence or Destiny. But my gut tells me he really wanted Faramir and that's why Boromir was the least successful of the bunch.
@@thegreyhavens167 yes. I fully agree.
@@thegreyhavens167You need to read the books then. Honestly you have several misstatements. No "chance meeting" in this scene. It was the will of Eru to lead them there. Also Boromir did dream of Imaldris. He was not a villain even as you seem to imply here. Denethor mgiht bw a hard man, but he was honorable. He was ruling a dying rwce, threatened by Aragorn as he gleaned that he was Isuldur's heir and might claim the kingship of Gondor. Really what man would voluntarily step down and give power specially if yoyr family has ruled the land with the best of your abilities? He has flaws, even boik Aragorn takes insults to his honor seriously
Could also be because Boromir was Denethor’s favorite son
Damn I think you’re on to something here.
Boromir might have lived had he let Faramir answer the call. Tolkien was such a good story writer simple easily overlooked hints left throughout his stories.
Agreed! Can you imagine how baller Minas Tirith would have been if Boromir was leading the defense of the city instead of Denethor???? Epic!
If this had been the case and Boromir stayed behind, this would have meant when Frodo was captured by Faramir then let go to complete his mission. Boromir would've took the ring for himself as he had men at his command to kill Frodo and Sam with Smegul in the forbidden pool. Tolkien was a magnificent writer and hidden plot.
This is the way 😂
Whenever I see a “this is the way” comment I almost pee 😂😭
When your comment is hearted @thegreyhavens ! You the man!
My mind is rotten....i read the title doing a Seinfeld impressions in my head.
I like how Sauron offered the dwarves 3 of the dwarven rings of power for what they said was just a trival ring a hobbit carried. That was a sus deal for sure
“Schmeagol”
Apparently even the way they say it in the movies is wrong. According to Tom Shippy it’s “SMay-Uh-Goal”.
Interesting. I have never heard this? Not sure if it's important or not, but Smeagol never complained so I guess it's ok???
@@thegreyhavens167 Interesting,you are posting about this subject but dismiss knowledge and criticism.
By all means assume you know everything but when you are corrected you should take it and grow.
Yes, the movie pronunciation as "Smee-gull" was incorrect. There's an accent over the "e" in Sméagol, which indicates both the "e" and the "a" are pronounced. "SMEE-uh-gol" is the correct pronunciation. "SMAY-uh-gol" also works.
"One does not simply walk into Elrond's Council."
Sean Bean has the death curse. Never survive.
He survived in Troja and some other movies.
@@Aldiraider interesting...
This is so cool 😊
Thanks!
Cllaassic Denethor. Wamp wamp waaaaa
That is a really important thread and I am disappointed it wasn't in the movies. Very interesting.
Honestly, it's barely mentioned in the book too. I agree 👍. In my mind, he is just looking out for his little brother.... Which makes his end even more tragic and admirable. He's not only protecting Merry and Pip and Gondor, but essentially his little brother too.
Thank you. Short and to the point.
Glad it was helpful! Thanks for the positive vibes!
Knowing Tolkien was Catholic, i would actually say Frodo's vision with Galadriel was more like a Marian apparition.
(Our Lady of Lórien 😆)
There’s various reasons as to why faramir going probably would’ve resulted in failure. Boromir would have never had his character arc from being almost turned by the ring to giving his life for the fellowship, thus Aragorn wouldn’t have seen true hope for change in the race of men, and wouldn’t have worried about helping Gondor and returning to the throne of Arnor.
Boromir was always supposed to go regardless of the fact that faramir saw it in his dreams more than once, so did Boromir
U really doing great
Ha! Classic Denethor.
Wow. Im feeling this 😢
That right headphone "this is the way" scared me to nazgul
Boromir had the dream. And if I had not tried to take the ring, frodo may not have left the group. And if he had not met faramir, he may not have made it. So who knows, but I do think this is the one case where people did not get the instructions correct.
I mostly agree, though hard to say. It's kinda weird to me to say "that's how it happened and so that's how it needed to happen" but I get it. Your not wrong! Though in my personal opinion, how do we know Boromir actually had the dream? He said Faramir had it and told him about it night after night after night... and then he had it one time too. Honestly, I always pictured it that he was telling a white lie and never had the dream, really. What do you think?
Good vid!! Subed bro❤
Thanks for the positive vibes! I appreciate it!
I'm glad that they simplified that in the movies. I think it would've been really awkward to show.
In the book, Gimli WASN'T on the council! His father, Gloin, was. He sat next to Frodo and had a little chitchat about Bilbo and Erebor and stuff IIRC.
Gloin then sent his son or proposed his son as a member of the fellowship - honestly I don't remember exactly.
As some else said, both brothers had the dream. Faramir had it twice and Boromir had it once. I personally think he may have made that up so he would have more leverage for going himself. Though their are a couple of other points to consider, he was worried about Faramir being able to successfully make that journey(though this too might be more of an ego thing), but the most important point in favor of Boromir is that he and Faramir were very close too each other and as the big brother, Boromir may really have been close enough to Faramir that he truly was worried and he truly had that dream after Faramir had it because of that connection. Also, considering I believe the dream was sent by one of the Vala (or maybe even Eru Illuvatar) in order to underscore to the brothers that this was real and it was important. I can sort of hear Boromir on first hearing about the dream from Faramir becoming a little condescending and at first not giving it much thought until he, too, dreamt the same thing. Then, as he was already quite prideful wanted to get this special task of contact with the elves who no longer visited Gondor. Either way it worked out for the best, because if Faramir had gone then Boromir would have been the one to catch Frodo, Sam and Gollum and I doubt he have let the hobbits go forward. He’d have taken them to Denethor, again, for his father’s praise. And he’d likely have had Gollum kill while Gollum was fishing. That’s assuming he didn’t have the prisoners searched (due to the ring calling out to him) and he’d have found the ring, found out what it really was and tried to use it. And that would have ended the third book a bit sooner. And not for the better.
Just good for thought and worth what you paid for it,
JTI
The hand of Eru nudges them together
I actually really like boromir he feels so human and real and his horn is just awesome lol
Yeah, I like Boromir as well. He is very relatable and kind of a baller! But why is it SO FUN to pick on Movie Boromir???? 🤣🤣🤣🤣
@@thegreyhavens167 because he’s a silly billy boy 😂
Damn, so Eru pretty much got cockblocked by Denethor.... No wonder he died horribly 😂
Sheesh.... freakin Denethor 🙄 Even Eru can handle his grumpy attitude 🤣🤣
nice bounty hunter reference!
Wow! Missed that!!!
I never thought about it that way. I’ve read the book a lot, but I never considered that Faramir being more connected to that dream might mean that he was meant to be in the fellowship.
Oh and he Boromir was meant to be in the fellowship because he was need to be the antagonist. He made Frodo make up his mind to go to Mordor!
One does not simply dream one time!
Borimir is my FAVORITE character because he’s the only one who displays the angst of the human condition, being in his predicament
Well your just WRONG that Boromir is your favorite.... because BILBO IS THE BEST 🤣🤣
OK, if we are being honest I like Boromir as well (don't tell him I said that). He is super relatable. He's not a half-elf prince or eternal wizard.... he's just a person. I really relate to him. Too bad he doesn't get a chance to accomplish more.
@@thegreyhavens167 Agreed! I never said he was my most loved character!😂
I want to BE Galadriel! But I am, in reality, probably more like Borimir!🤣
Wow. I have read books several times, twice Silmarillion and some Unfinished stories but I didn't know or remember that.
Don't listen to this it isn't accurate
Never appreciated it before, but divine intervention plays a HUGE role in this book. Its littered with from even the first chapter
If Boromir had remained in Gondor, he may have rode his men to Helms Deep in their hour of need. He may have also succumbed entirely to the ring when capturing Frodo, Sam & Gollum. Merry & Pippin may not have survived without Boromir either, Faramir was a good captain but Boromir was a great warrior. They needed him in the end to survive the onslaught of orcs.
He was a metaphor: The One Ring is so corrupting that Man can't even handle the journey to destroy it.
"This is the way" 🤣🤣
🤣🤣 🤣 🤣 There is a chance I have the sense of humor of a 10 yr old child. (ノ^_^)ノ
I like the change the movie made
Yeah, I kinda agree. Both are honestly good, but there is something cool about the movie version.... 😎
i wonder how things wouldve went differently had faramir went in boromirs stead, probably wouldve changed the course of the entire story
I never knew that Gimli had three syllables.
Shit I didn't know that, awesome bro!!!!!
Oh... Atleast Faramir isnt dead 😂❤
Did Tolkien have any (older) brothers, and if so, did he have a difficult relationship with them? Because, while I don't care for biographical readings in general, he certainly seemed to be working out some sort of personal grudges or grievances in the Boromir-Faramir and Saruman-Gandalf contrasts, with the top dogs being portrayed as deeply flawed and their one-step-below counterparts being portrayed as oh-so-much better. Or perhaps Tolkien had issues with whoever the head of the English faculty at Oxford was, and felt that he, Tolkien, was more deserving of the role.
Was this in the original trilogy? Or the silmarillion?
Bucket, all of this is from the trilogy in the Council of Elrond chapter. We actually don't know anything about the dream except what Boromir tells us... so we only have his perspective on it.
Here is what he says:
* His brother Faramir had this dream, sent by the gods, to come to Rivendell
* He had it over and over, night after night, and wished to go, but he couldn't
* Some time later, Boromir also had the dream one time
* Boromir decided to go, and no one could really tell him no because he is a baller
So we don't know for sure that it was Denethor that would not let Faramir go - that's just an educated guess on my part. But it's pretty clear that Eru (God) sent the dream and called Faramir to Rivendell. But why then did Boromir also have the dream? Two ideas:
1) Could be that he was Eru's second choice when Faramir didn't go
2) My personal view, Boromir was never chosen and never had the dream. He told a white lie. Essentially, he was being a good older brother and went for Faramir.
You could totally read it either way. There is no indication of which is true, and Tolkien never mentions it anywhere else. What do you think?
@thegreyhavens167 Thank you so much for the in depth explanation! I love Lotr but am pretty stupid when it comes to lore,so watching your videos teach me so much!
Yes, but one does not simply walk into Mordor 😂
I have been watching these shorts for a few days and now I have a massive urge to go back to Skyrim.
Thanks, I suppose.
Jokes aside, now I'm also angry at their father. I mean. Angrier than I was before. I'm glad he died. He was a terrible human.
Glad you liked the videos!!! ＼（〇◡ｏ）／
Don't do it! By the nine divines do NOT fire up Skyrim!!! You know if you play for more than a couple hours..... many months of your life will suddenly disappear..... we've all been there, my friend. Stay strong.
"Do come baaack..."
@@thegreyhavens167 lmao maybe if I can hold it off till I finish my current game (a plague tale: requiem. Amazing piece of work), I will not feel bad about losing months of my life xD
Nice. I LOVED the first Plague Tale game... and thought the sequel was really good too. I was really surprised more people don't talk about these games more. The scenery is great, the setting is EPIC, they look beautiful, the female lead (in particular) is written really well, and honestly the relationship between the brother and sister is very unique in gaming. It's great stuff.
ALSO GIANT WAVES OF RATS ARE EPIC!!!!!!! AHGHHHHHHH
Interesting to know the USD exists on Middle Earth
Yep, most Tolkien scholars dont go as deep into the Middle Earth financial systems as I do. In truth the 3rd age international economic markets anchored themselves to the USD to hedge against the extreme volatility of the Mordorian Franc. (Yep, that's right. Barad-dur should properly be pronounced with a French accent 🤷)
@thegreyhavens167 good eye
Someone that listens to The fellowship of the Ring every night before I sleep. To help me drift off into Dreamland. You're wrong boromir also has a dream. He tells elrond that he had a dream involving a halfling. And then he says my brother also had the dream. And it wasn't a dream to go to rivendell it was just a dream concerning the sword that was broken and the halfling. His father said seek out elderon who was great in the ways of lore.
@danielmorgan4134, well said. Thanks for the great comment. But let me politely challenge you here:
* Where I agree with you: Boromir says Faramir had it first and very often, and then later he had it one time as well.
* Where I disagree with you: we don't "know" that Boromir had the dream. We only know that he "said" he had the dream. Totally different. Tolkien, Gandalf, etc... no one else confirms it. All we have is Boromir's word.
Keep in mind that 99% of Tolkien's works are told from the view point of a potentially unreliable narrator, which is what makes it feel so realistic and like actual mythology! Love it! So you could be right, but could also be wrong.
I personally think he was telling a white lie the whole time (like he did several times at Amon Hen). I think he's an awesome and noble character and doing it for good reasons, but still a lie nonetheless. What do you think? Am I crazy here?
Faramir is my favourite!.. I wish i could see him on the fellowship...
wonder how things would've turned out otherwise... It all worked out since Boromir convinced Frodo to do what he had to.
Good point! Though I could see an alternate universe where Faramir is Sam and Frodos guide instead of Gollum? What do you think?
@@thegreyhavens167 I don't know... but I'm sitting here imagining Frodo and Sam continued as planned, and were picked up in Ithilien by Boromir, this time. We all know how that would've gone down.
But assuming Faramir tried to guide Frodo, he may not have been willing to lead him through Cirith Ungol.
I think Middle Earth providence meant for exactly this to happen. It either marked Faramir as worthy, or couldn't communicate with Bormir as easily at all, but anticipated that Denethor would send out Boromir.
In coming to Faramir, it was perhaps hinting to the Wise that he could be trusted when they arrived in Gondor to find Denethor as he was.
Oh, I just realized: perhaps Gandalf the White thought this very thing when making his decision to save Faramir from the pyre.
Or him having that dream is what led to boremier going and that's exactly how the gods planned it everything happens for a reason.
NO WAYYYY Faramir would have made the perfect fellowship and it probably wouldnt have broken and ended with the attack of the urukhai and the kidnapping of merry and pipin. Can you just imagine them making the whole thing together like one big dnd party? 😂😂
Finally, someone talks about Sméagol in Mirkwood
Only 1 million for g unit? I would like to see his warrant.
This is the way ...
It was Boromir who had to go, Faramir, being apprentise to a wizard, was too wise to be manipulated by the ring, wouldnt attack Frodo, and the quest will be even further jeopardised. So Boromir the soldier had to go just to attack Frodo.
Is that little drum sound at the start of the video from the medal of Honor games?
Should it be read as the fellowship would have worked - or gone differently - if Faramir was there (opening though to speculation that the whole task could fail and bring ruin to the Middle Earth), or that Boromir took for himself the deadly path of that role instead of his brother? Either ways, Boromir has always been my favourite 🤙
Maybe it was divine providence that Boromir was chosen because if Faramir had gone to Rivendell, he might be the one who is beheaded in King's Landing..
I wonder if Tolkien had that arc set up from the very beginning or added it later on. That’s some crazy world building.
Honestly, my guess is NOPE.
He said that he wrote the story front to back in order, without making a sketch of where it was going or what the ending would be or anything. No outline... but just let the story "unfold itself in the telling". I don't know if that's 100% truth or not, but that's what he said. If so... just all kinda happened??? Legend....
One of my fave, heartbreaking facts x
I agree... heart breaking.
In my mind I really feel that Boromir was just looking out for his little brother, and trying to do the right thing. Honestly he fails at times but also makes a great sacrifice not only for the world and his country and two hobbits, but ultimately for his little brother. 🥹
Imagine how things would have played out with Faramir in the Fellowship and Boromir left to defend Osgiliath
Agreed 100%. Can you imagine the defense of Minas Tirith if Boromir was there to defend it and lead it's armies? EPIC!!!! I also feel Faramir would have been an amazing guide for Frodo and Sam. I could imagine him guiding them to Mordor instead of Smeagol. What do you think?
Question: did bilbo ever see the drawfs again or gandalf before his 111 birthday
If Faramir went to Rivendel ...
The quest would have failed.
In Ithiliën when captured by the Rangers, Boromir in charge instead of Faramir, would have brought the ring home.
That would have caused major problems..
Never would he have called Aragorn, my brother, my captain, my king
I get it. Assuming everything would go the same way it went your totally right to say that. Though I doubt Boromir would ever have been in Ithilien.
But I propose a different path: Faramir seems like he would have been an AWESOME guide for Frodo and Sam into Mordor instead of Gollum. No Smeagol needed!!! He is super resistant to the ring, has humility towards the hobbits, is a special forces kinda of sneaky good fighter, and more knowledgeable than anyone in the party save Aragorn.
And with him leading the ring, might have allowed Aragorn to go straight to Gondor like he wished. I mean can you imagine the defense of Minas Tirith if Boromir and Aragorn were both there to lead the armies.... Legendary!!!!
Imagine Faramir member fellowship
This is the way.
That makes Boromir so much cooler.
No the dream came to boromir too after faramir saw it
@ask-i-memnudizi6791, That's a fair statement, but only if you take everything at face value.
We dont know anything about the dream except what Boromir told us. Gandalf, Tolkien, Elrond, etc never tell us anything about it. Boromir said Faramir had the dream night after night after night.... and then he had it once too.
1) I personally, always suspected that Boromir might be telling a small lie here. Did he really have it? I think he is just being a good big brother here.
2) Even if he did, the gods first choice is clearly Faramir, and Boromir is a best second.
That's how I read it. What are your thoughts?
Frodo shouldn't have been in the Fellowship. If Boromir got the ring, he could use it to beat Sauron.