SBC Piston Ring and Rod Orientation (For the First time Builders)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 19 มิ.ย. 2021
- I was asked a few times after the last video about Piston Ring ring gap orientation aka "Clocking" so here's a video that should help out you first time engine builders!
Ring Install on basic SBC pistons!
Ring orientation is another thing that everyone does differently, I've done it the CP carrillo piston way for years and have had good luck with leak downs and oil control.
Plus a tip on making sure your rods are facing the right direction, a very common mistake!
Feel Free to Comment below if you have any questions! and don't forget to like and Subscribe!
Piston ring installer:
amzn.to/3VeNDBO
Piston ring File (Basic)
amzn.to/3yV2lXj - ยานยนต์และพาหนะ
i watched more than 30 videos, I couldn't get what they were saying. you explained everything simply. my concept is now clear. thanks
Thanks for showing which way the rods should be turned !!!!!!!!
Simple tip fitting piston ringe, ... take THREE old thin feeler gauges, align them around the piston at 120 degrees , [use elastic bands to hold them in position if reqd. ] ... then easily slide the rings over the feelers , over the apropriate ring grooves , slide out the feelers and the ring drops into the groove ! ... also works removing rings !
sorry, oil controller is 9-12-3 then 2nd ring at 9 and top ring is 3, all street engines are set in that manner. read your paper work. if you don't do this you will get piston washout, and foul your plugs. if you done this right, you should get a nice golden burn on top the piston. if you see clean spots, someone did not install ring correctly. you never clock the 1st or 2nd ring to 12 or 6, this is thrust points. You want full ring contact on exhaust & compression strokes. piston skirts will thank you. engine builders 101
don't the rings move around when engine is running? so what even is the point of ring orientations?
I’m doing my first engine rebuild in my nova and now I’m feeling more confident in touching my pistons! Thanks for the simple advice
First time builders or even more should have a book
I've been clocking rings that way for over 30 years. literately thousands of engines...never had a problem. Great video for the new guys!
I appreciate you checking out my video! Thanks!
Rod orientation is pretty simple to explain, the flat sides of the big ends sit against each other and the chamfer side faces the side of the crank journel. Long as you got the flat sides touching each other on each pair of rod ends your good
Hey JJ I see you again, you talking mad shit and never replied, Fuckin’ scared of me or something??? Post a video about your shi’.
This is actually awesome, round of applause 🎉🎉 you nailed it
The Best video on TH-cam for SBC Rod Orientation. Thanks for the info. Great Job man.
I'm installing pistons right now and this helped a lot. Thanks
man i love how easy you broke this down
could you talk about rist pin offset
Currently building a 350 this video helped after i forgot how i took the pistons out
Can’t say it enough. I love your videos. Thank you so much.
Easiest way to explain it and i remember it. No matter the side. The bearing notches are always to the outside of the block.
That's right
Stumbled across this video and you help me so much thank you
That was extremely helpful
Great video! I was taking notes the whole time haha
Thanks man!
this helped alot, i dont know what possessed me but put of everything ive been labeling, marking, and keeping track of while tearing down my engine, somehow i didnt keep track of what direction my rod caps were facing during disassembly and i wasnt sure which way they went. Im gonna go back to the shop today and mark them so i dont mix them up again lol, great video
Good info! Keep building SBCs!
Thanks man!
Great Video, great advice
this helped a lot. Thanks
Good video! Another note to add is the berring locking tabs in the rod go to the top closest to the cam in case the rods aren’t numbered and the new pistons are not on the rods yet!
First time seeing your channel and now subscriber.
Thank you,
piston/ rod/ ring installation and orientation makes much more sense now..
I'm working on building my 6.0 ls now.. I have never taken a motor apart or built one before, but you just made it easier....
Great video!
The first oil ring you put on,the middle oil ring has an up and down.I only use hastings.Im blessed to live a few miles from engine parts warehouse.
I have watched rings rotate on pistons before. When I worked for the truck line, we'd pull the air box cover/s off of the 2 cycle 8v 71 Detroit's, and we could watch the pistons through the ports and see the rings turning, when it was running
On my 2-stroke dirtbikes they’ve always had a locating pin for each ring. I thought that was the norm to avoid the open end being cought in a port.
@@ian9toes As I recall, the Detroit's had a ring of relatively small ports around the bottom, anyway they didn't have ring retaining pins.
Exactly. It really doesn't matter, but i roughly do it anyway. I definitely won't be losing sleep over it 👍
Many years ago I did some piston rings and I separated some feeler gauges and put 3 at different parts of the piston and slid the sharp edges of the ring on the gauge to prevent it scoring the piston; it was a 4-cyl and it worked out fine. But if I had to do it today, I think I would buy me the proper tool.
Cheek to cheek baby!
Thanks dude!
Awesome channel !!!! Educate your viewers… not everyone is a auto-mechanic or engine builder…. This is the first channel I’ve seen that actually teaches step by step … these super fast videos suck … I can watch this channel for hours … absolutely amazing 🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆👍👍👍👍👍😁
Really appreciate that man, thank you
Golden rule with rings:
If you take hold of each end you can push them together, you can waggle them up and down but you CANNOT pull them apart or they'll break. Practice on your old rings first.
Good advice. Moly rings are forgiving, but cast rings certainly are not lol
Rings, especially cast iron, can be pulled apart, NO MORE THAN NECESSARY, to fit over the piston itself.
They break easy, then the brakes are on, for progress, until new ones are acquired.
Like he mentioned, experiment with the old rings, to get a feel for how much they can move/expand, before they break.
If you get frustrated with any shituation. The shop rule is:
"Only throw the broken parts"😁
Good shit my boi
Not sometimes, the rings WILL rotate because of the crosshatch. If you pull an engine apart after it's been put together and run you'll see the gaps in different places. The initial clocking is to make sure they don't line up from the start. I've pulled apart engines that have 60k+ miles and still have cross hatching showing (high nickel Chrysler blocks). Most of the ring and piston mfrs and OEMs have their recommendations. As long as they are staggered. I've seen 120 degree spacing in some service manuals, or 270 with some ring packs from Speed Pro.
I was taught to put the endgaps away from rhe thrust faces of the pistons.(opposite of what you said to do.) By a very respected well known engine builder.) So that the ring ends dont score the thrust faces on break in.
I put them all at the 90°\270° area.(ends of gudgeon /wrist pin.)
I thought the same thing. Seems odd to put the end gaps on the thrust side.
Quite simply the bigger chamfer goes toward the counterweight immediately next to it....the most simple way to orient the rod is to look at the rod from the skinny side, youll notice that one side is fattsr than the opposing side...the fat side goes to the counterweight next to it and the rod next to it fat side goes to counterweight next to it so in essence the fat sides point left and right in the journal...and looking at the two on the jurnal the big chamfer on the left rod points left and the big chamfer on the right piston rod points to the right
Piston ring orientation at assembly isn't something that matters.
There has been multiple studies on this subject (GM E. Schneider D Blossfeld is one example, I believe Ohio State did another but cant find it at the moment.). Realtime analysis is done by exposing part of the ring to a radioactive source and using gama ray monitors to view the motion of the rings in a running engine. All these studies find piston ring rotation to be rapid and erratic. The ring gaps will line up eventually, and they will soon after not line up, and on average, they will spend more time not lined up than lined up.
If it makes you feel better to orient them in a certain way by all means do so, but don't lose any sleep over ring orientation.
Thanks
K.I.S.S.
My MO! Nice
thank you for this info! randomly fed on my front page (looking to rebuild my genesis). I do have a question, when i buy my new pistons and rods if i see the little slanted edges on the connecting rod that hugs the bearing.. even for a v6 would i still want to use this same method of bank 1 having them face the front and bank 2 facing the rear? I guess when i pull the motor ill see what it has in terms of orientation from hyundai right? lol (first time builder)
Thanks for this video. So bank 1 the chamfer and dot on piston faces forward. On bank 2 the chamfer faces to the rear. Does the dot on those pistons face front too or to the rear?
Yes
I usually put oil rails at 60 to 90 from the expander then since I don't want the ring gap on 5he thrust side of the piston u usually line them up with opposite ends of the pin
I guess I've just always done is the CP carrillo piston way. Its just one of those things that everyone seems to do differently haha
Very informative. I woulda went carbon fibre on those piston rings
Haha always a good idea 😂
Great stuff Cutter as always. I just pulled my 880 vortec. I am going to be using an AFR head, but in your opinion is it worth using afr vortec heads and needing a vortex style intake or would it make sense to use the affordable enforcer with better intake. Your the man pat we all appreciate your knowledge and tips, keep it up stay safe
You'll be better over with a std. Sbc intake as you'll find the ports will line up better with the enforcer heads
Thanks Pat, your the man. What are the chances you could put together a parts list, stock crank "polished" everything else new. High hp if I have to switch to carb no big deal. I would gladly pay for this or donate to your channel. You bring great opions and real world testing that we all appreciate. Thanks
Not sure if you have seen some of the you "help me build it series" but im putting together some budget small blocks. I will be going over every part used in the engines.
The "youtube engine" is a late model 1pc block with a polished crank and summit flat tops
Cool, I like to put the compression rings on the non-thrust plains. Plus clocking those rings on the pin end side will minimize the chance of the rings gouging the cylinders.
If you put the gaps above the skirts where the pistons have the most available amount the piston can move in the bore if the piston rocks on the pin's axis. That movement would be minimized 90 degrees of the axis.
Anyway, that's my thinking about that which is probably a bit nit picky on my part.
You are really forgetting about thrust. Check your thrust bearings upon removal, they will wear the sides more than any other bearing, rod or crank, so up and down on the compression rings is best orientation. As any slap or wear on the skirts pin end sides is rocking this gap ends into the walls on the thrust side...just engineering thoughts.
I just installed new pistons and rings - when turning crank by hand, I can hear a subtle scraping sound - is this a normal sound for new installs?
I did take the piston back out to check rings and cylinder wall, and both were good...
The crank turns fairly easily although a tiny bit rough with pistons installed... can I assume this is normal and the noise is coming from the new rings riding on new hone?
Your experience in this sure would help put my mind at ease!
If everything is correct the rings will rotate on the piston during normal engine operation. When they stop moving is when problems start.
Simple and neat, mantap!!! subscribe!!!
If I buy new rods does the location mater as long as I put them the right way when u use the original rods you know what number they were on but new ones does it matter? Thanks
I do oil ring gaps 120 degrees apart
Questions: 1-Do you “clock” your cam bearings? I’ve heard mixed things, but the last motor I built, I clocked them to roughly 3:00.
2-What head gaskets do you like for your Vortec heads? I really want to try out the Felpro 1094’s for the extra compression, but worried about them sealing without everything being decked.
Yeah I do clock my cam bearings. Some guys will tell you it doesn't matter where there's a oil groove all the way around but the optimum place to position the oil hole is between 2 and 4 o clock looking at the block from the front.
You may find you will have problems with the steel shim gaskets on a undecked block. Guys have done it with success but its obviously hit or miss. The deck surface should be very smooth when using a shim or mls gasket.
You can use a gasket like GM# 14096405 (.028 thick) on a decent deck surface.
Awesome thanks. Also do you have any videos on how to select your cam timing and ignition timing for your specifically desired torque curves? Thanks.
Not yet but some future videos
Bearings with 3 holes in a triangle configuration, you set them at 3 and 7, which oils ahead of the cam journal in rotation, looking at the front. 1 hole bearings don't optimally oil, so they should be at 6 in line with main, which again, Isn't optimal but will throw more oil at the bottom of the journal.
I don’t do them between 2-4 o’clock because it takes up most of my day I do them at 9 o’clock in the morning 😂
I have those same rods in a project short block. I’m in need of one. Happen to know a part number for them?
Hi there, you position the ring gap to a certain pattern, but don't they move during operation?
Ring gap is important.
Like you, I make myself feel good by timing the gaps. Reality is the rings rotate and go wherever they want. Ironically though it's rare to pull an engine down and find the gaps lined up ? If it gap timing really was important, surely someone would be using pegs like 2 strokes do, but I've never seen that on even the most expensive pistons.
Getting ready to start on an 880 block and 906 heads....have some Piston ring and rod bolt questions:
1. Piston rings-what do you recommend if I’m using hypereutectic pistons BUT I’m just deglazing/honing at home with no machine work? Also anyway to make sure I get the best outcome with this situation?
2. Rod bolts- I had all intentions of replacing the rod bolts with ARP, but then I read that changing the rod bolts, changes the size of the rod journals??? What’s my best option here?
My local machine shop just closed and I’m on a family mans budget anyway....so hauling everything an hour away and paying hundreds of dollars in machine shop fees isn’t ideal, especially when everything I have is in really nice shape. Thanks!
1) Piston rings: I'm assuming you're using new after-market hyper pistons pistons? If so, I would just use a set of premium hastings rings with a moly top ring. It might be a good idea to get a file fit set of your bores are slighly enlarged.
2) Yeah, you will need to have the rods honed if you replace the rod bolts.
Chances are the big ends are out of round now, even with the old bolts. Adding the ARP bolts and rehoned rods might be your best investment if you're trying to do a budget build that you want to beat on abit. Rod bolts are the most stressed fastener in the engine
OLÁ. Os setores de aço tem lado de montagem em relação a lareral da canaleta de óleo. ABRAÇOS...
Quick question if you did put the pistons on the crankshaft the wrong way how long will it take for the engine to fail. Like instantly when you do the first start or it takes awhile.
Like as far as if the chamfer on the rod wasn't facing the correct way? If the chamber is not facing the correct way, first off it will be very hard to install the both rods as there will be no rod side clearance. If you do manage to get it together, it will be very hard to turn the engine over and probably fail fairly fast if you do get it started
How the rings get clocked doesn't matter, since the gaps WILL line up eventually. Rings have to turn, and turn they do. It is a necessary evil. However you set them, is purely by builder's choice and how it makes you feel inside, knowing they didn't line up when you installed them.
However, it is MUCH more important to make sure the gaps are correct, the rings are installed right aide up, and most important, they are the correct ring for the ring land. Radial, and axial.
If ring ends line up then you have no compression and blowbye, clocking rings is very important, rings just don't turn they turn back and forth that's the purpose of cross hatch honing.
@@jeremyking5684 False, actually. Rings Do turn. Gaps WILL line up. They don't stay lined up, because they turn. They are always turning. Why? Because if they don't they can't disappate heat, and they will fail very quickly. Sealing a chamber is not the only job a ring has, and it has ZERO to do with cross hatch. Period.
I know what happens when they line up, and at some point, they always will. Nothing anyone can do about it.. Just an FYI.
It does make a guy feel good about how he put his engine together, though...
😁 Cross hatch honing is done to make sure new rings wear to the cylinder walls. Ensuring the new rings seal all the way around the cylinder walls. The cross hatch acts as a cutting edge on the rings. Eventually the cross hatches get wore off and the cylinder walls become very smooth as do the rings.
@@jeremyking5684 Wrong
Try putting Top oil rail on first. This way oil rail will never hang up on expander. With top rail on first bottom rail slides over much easier
Yep
I did the chamfer with the One side facing forward and the Two side facing towards the back. . I just noticed all the dots ars facing the back as well. . Is it a do over?
I would just simply verify the chamfers, not the dots, lots of mistakes coming out of aftermarket companies these days, A LOT.
Im doing this right now the question IS the gap from the ring kit is correc how It comes in the kit? Or is necessary to verify first? Thankyou
Always check them, gotta check everything nowadays
Ever use total seal rings & their dry powder cylinder lube? I run their gapless rings in almost every build now, the gapless top ring are great for racing but tend to pull oil past the valve stem seals due to higher vacuum
The things we learn by watching and reading. Incredible. I guess no need for a vacuum pump if blow by is diminished???????
For external oil leaks I mean
If I’m changing my pistons on my 350 do I have to take anything g to the machine shop the crank or anything I’ve heard if I remove the crank or anything down there I’ll have to have the machine shop do work to it any info
Typically, if the pistons are being changed, then the engine will need to be bored to a larger size to get a nice round fresh bore. If the bore is in really good shape, then somtimes they can just be honed, and the same size piston can be used.
If you're unsure of the condition of the parts, then you should take everything to the machine shop to be checked before ordering pistons or bearings ect
On the instructions for installing rings, it says do not put gaps on the thrust side of the piston
Will oil get inside the combustion chamber and burn oil if the rings are not properly clocked?
Rings should always be property clocked during install but that doesnt mean they wont move around. You can sometimes find gaps lined up when taking engines apart.
Alot of car manufacturers that have engines that burn out get blamed for piston ring gaps lining up but when its actually oil control rings that get caked and block the oil return holes in the piston.
Ive found with the extended oil change intervals or people that go way over the oil change have this issues where most people that change the oil religiously dont have it as much
Just an observation. Using the chamfer as a reference to orientate the rods can get confusing for beginners, put the bearing dowel notches towards the pan rail is the easiest way to remember, not all engines are this way, but sbc's absolutely.
Another great way!
what if its a 4 cylinder engine and the rod chamfer is the same on both sides? which side to the bearing dowel notches point towards then? do they point to the exhaust side of the block? or point the notches towards the intake side of the block?
And as long as piston notches are fronted( if applicable)
Do aftermarket rods have the champers too? I'm building my first sbc. My block is a high nickle 1973 010 4 bolt main from a box truck.
Yes they will have a chamfer.
Feel free email me if your not sure with a picture
Pcperformance1@outlook.com
@@cuttersperformance Thank you , I appreciate that. I got my heads. Block going to machine shop soon. Then I'll know for sure my over bore. I'm going with scatt rotating assembly. 3.70cc valve relief forged pistons. Probably .030 over.
I've had a question for years but haven't had any way to test. With no gap rings and low drag rings in mind, what if you stacked oil scraper rings (with gaps offset) in the compression ring grove. Would it seal? Oil scrapers are low drag, but would they last?
No, and no.
@@jrdmotorsports9718 does that mean you've tried this? Or just don't believe it would work?
@@toddjensen692 No-one in their right mind would ever think about trying it for one lol.
For two, it won't work because an oil rail, or 4, does not have the radial tension it requires to seal cylinder pressure. It's not all about lower drag. If you can't seal the chamber, it won't matter how low the drag is. They are not designed for it. You want less drag, run a thinner compression ring. That said, you do realize where 85% of the drag comes from, don't you? Yep, oil rings.
My rods had the exact same 45 chamfer on both sides.. what then?
Those gaps don't just move a little, they move a lot, to point of actually rotating the rings, considerably.
Correct, I just went for the 1st rebuild on my Stocker (an 84 Dodge Daytona 2.2 TBI that has been in the family since factory/dealer purchased brand new), it had almost 93K on it (head had only been off once ever, by me in 1995, and sure enough, the number 1 piston all rings were perfectly lined up, both oil rails and oil ring expander and 1 and 2 compression rings were all 4 within 1/8" from perfectly lined up.
I complained about it being a factory error, mind you 38 years ago that engine was factory assembled. And was told by my machinist, and my forged piston mfg rep, (I had started the car and ran it exactly 3 mins after a nearly 23 yr. Layoff from racing it...97' to Jan 22' on 13 yr old pristine race gas), that it was just a lucky shot, that they all rotate, especially after the cross hatching is gone.
They assured me the factory clocked the rings. If they did not spin in the bore, there would be wear and other issues,and it would be quite noticeable upon disassembly.
Then they showed the patterns of blow by on each ring land that assured me that the info is correct. They were if taken ring land by ring land, even all around in pattern of darkness... proving that it was reality and not just a theory.
They do move a lot, and often if oiled correctly. And in both directions, as explained by a piston mfg. Tech. So, eventually, at least temporarily for each, by total chance...They will all line up perfectly or near perfectly occasionally.
But, when you disassemble one and it is that close, you sure to question it, as far as the assembly.
Hey Man can you explain to me the difference in sbc connecting rods, I have GMA rods and one x rod? I’ve looked everywhere for the information
So if we are talking regular large journal 5.7 SBC connecting rods.
Your gma rods and x rods are probably almost identical. GM had a few variation but for the most part the gm forged rods are basically the same. You will want to weigh them to confirm they match.
The GM "Pink" rods had a splash of pink paint on them and they are abit better HD rod from gm. But honestly by the time you buy them, arp bolts and resize the rods your better off getting after market rods.
GM forged rods with arp bolts are safe for 400hp and 6000 rpm (safely)
Then there are the PM rods (powdered metal rods) these are the strongest of the factory sbc rods and used in the late model sbcs like lt1s and vortecs.
Good for 500hp or 6500 rpm when using arp bolts. I've pushed the PM rods more than any other stock rods and have had good luck with them.
Let me know if you have any more questions
Thanks man! I didn’t even think to weigh them but for right now I’m building a 333 with stock rods just to get it running! Trying to keep it on the cheap side with a set of 416 ported, heard they can flow roughly 200Cfm what would you suggest as a flat tappet on the cheap cam for a stock converter?
@@cuttersperformance I wish I had a dollar for every GM powered metal rod I have forged at my 12+ years at Federal Mogul (the pioneer)/Borg Warner/GKN, from SBC rods to Z-06 rods and after market PM rods for Howard's cam Co. Lots of rods for Chrysler, and Oldsmobile back in the day too. 4,000 to 5,000 per shift running 6-7 days a week., I'd be a millionaire many times over, lol Damn good rods!!
Question new 5.7 forged scat rods. Install king bearings. There is a 5though gap on other side of locks. Any idea. Torqued 40
Not sure I know what you mean
Feel free to email me a pic @
Pcperformance1@outlook.com
@@cuttersperformance hey man sent u an email with pics
I thought that the rings will move around when motor is running
Have you ever done any sonic testing on a dart SHP block. I just got one
It's the same block as a Little M, just with less features. Little M can go 4.250" and still be over .200" thick. They claim max bore at 4.165, just an ass cover disclaimer. I have done many, including SHP, which I have 3 of in the shop now. 4.165", 4.185" and 4.200" for big inch sbc stuff, no problem.
@@jrdmotorsports9718 Hi, what is sonic testing Brandon Bell is referring to please? Thank you.
@@robertclymer6948 It's an Electronic tool that measures material thickness when you can't use a caliper. We use it on cylinder bores to know how big it can safely be bored, decks, ports when porting, etc...
@@jrdmotorsports9718 Thank you for your reply! Always love learning from the Pros!
@@robertclymer6948 👍
Should have mentioned the rod bearings tangs always face the cam.
Question? R all sbc rods the same even vortec rods?
For the most part all early 350 sbc rods are the same but the vortec rods are PM rods (powdered metal) and are actually quite strong
@@cuttersperformance The forged density is 7.0 and the micro structures are something to behold. Back in the late 90's Nascar tested our Federal Mogul SBC rods and were extremely impressed. The same Rods we also provided to Howard's Cam for after market sales.
Me I'm first student so I want to learn how to make engine
Don't understand why the ring gap is so important they move around when the engine is running
never showed the top of second piston to let people know if the dot or arrow faces the front or back.
Do the oil rings have to be gapped?
Not gapped but checked to insure they are over minimum gap. Usually .015 or so. I've never had to grind a oil ring
Not unless you want to, for a specific application. Always a good idea to check them though.
@@jrdmotorsports9718 My son builds garden tractor pulling engines. They take single cylinder engines designed to run 3800 RPM and turn them at or above 9000RPM. I guarantee you he checks every single ring, always.
This doesnt make sense, espescially on a honed out used bore..
The Thrust side and anti Thrust sides are at North and South..
All scouring occurs on the North and South ...
So why would you line up Compression Ring gaps with these microscopic grooves for Start up 🤔??
Each to their own I guess, but this is one way that I will not follow.
I'll keep lining my Compression Rings up East and West with the Top Ring on whichever side the Cooler Intake side exists..
Cylinder bore are not true round will cause rings to walk !
and yet , I have always spiraled them on........
Piston rings constantly spin on the pistons so clocking the rings is a waste of time
Piston rings do not move around in an engine
Piston ring gaps should never be facing in the direction of the crank, or parallel with the piston pins… if you do that the grooves will leave marks in the bore… Bottom oil ring gap at 10.30, top oil ring gap at 4.30. Second ring gap at 7.30, top ring gap at 1.30… but never in line with the direction of thrust…or 90° to thrust… that’s just the way I do it…
This is actually awesome, round of applause 🎉🎉 you nailed it