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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 22 มี.ค. 2024
- The gist of it is that I think often times we can get hung up on 'critiques' which are not really critiques. If we say something is a 'self-insert' what we are usually saying is that the character feels as if they are out of place and do not belong in their world. Also that they seem to have too many things in common with the writer and that they get special treatment in the story. Without these aspects, however, a self insert does not really indicate a bad character or bad writing. It's a net neutral, and just like anything else in writing it is a tool to be used if you choose to do so. However, it is a tool which should be wielded properly.
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MC:"Why do you give me the toughest battles?"
Author:"because you're me"
Shinji moment
what many people have against mary sues is the same thing they have against self inserts. They often lack necessary character flaws because not all writers are introspective enough to point out their own character flaws.
Would it be weird if I had a self-insert I treated like Subaru from Re:zero?
@@jawz9455No. That just means you can be trusted with a self insert.
Yeah, but "character flaws" is kinda becoming another catch phrase, too, just like "self insert" and "Mary Sue" and is often misapplied and used in ways that are not consistent for the definition of the phrase.
Not all characters are supposed to have flaws. "Paragon" characters (Superman, Dr. Who, etc) with flat character arcs can be fun and entertaining and not have character flaws.
Character growth might happen to those around them, or even because of them, but the point of these aspirational characters is not to have flaws.
So I'm not convinced that more character flaws make a character better in every story.
Like everything else, its more nuanced than that.
I’m too good at seeing my flaws.
@@vonnie0_0 Its hard to turn that keen power of introspection to seeing our own best aspects, for sure!
Being introspective is a bit of a curse, in that way. I so completely get where you are coming from with that one, unfortunately!
No, you can create whatever kind of character you want, even self inserts, and if the story and the writing is good enough, you'll be fine. This applies to pretty much everything. If you're good enough at writing, then most people will be fine with it.
well said!
“LocalScriptMan” is also good at educating writing tips, he makes more visual style videos by using MS Paint to prove his point (a really good ones) my personal favourites from him is character sheets and writing good dialogues
Yes that’s my opinion too. Thank you for writing this.
@@Artificial_Idiot I might have to check him out.
Yeah. My fav self insert is Sol Badguy. He is basically a self insert of Daisuke Ishiwatari the creator of Guilty Gear. And because of the games themes (rebellion and proggressivism) main character being a self insert (a thing you normally dont want to do) makes perfect sense(like come on Sol has a giant FREE scrathced on his bandana) . Also Daisuke just knows how to make an edgelord character appealing
Well Dante's inferno is basically a bible fanfic with the author self insert and its an insanly influential book to this day. This speaks louder and better then any argument i could make.
also the first instance of " i drew you as the Soyjack and me as the chad" but you know, literature
@@Arthurskittenboywife oh yeah true . But most ancient myths and story is basically that if we think about it
George Lucas = Luke Skywalker
Hideaki Anno = Shinji Ikari
Just other examples of great self-inserts, these writers understood their flaws to the point that Anno himself said the one thing he hated the most in NGE is the part when he sees himself, Shinji.
@@032_m.alfathcirrus5 i didnt know that , now i feel bad for him for being like shinji
@@xdskiller3509 You can even extend this into Anakin being George's Self-Insert in the prequels, more so than Obi-Wan, due to the clear flaws in his marriage that likely mirror his and Marzia's marriage.
Before I watch: No they are not.
Self inserts should be approached the same way you approach yourself and your own writing: With self awareness.
I have a self insert character who, instead of wish fufillment, I think is my best written character because it incorporates every tiny flaw and ideology of my personality. Every plot exposes a new flaw but also helps said character grow, with the end of their character arc being what I wish to be, while how they start is how flawed I am now. But even by the end they still have some flaws.
If self inserts are born of insecurity, they will fail. If they are born of honesty, you will create a unique yet realistic character.
Fully agree
Very well said. I have a character I want to write that’s like that too, and I hope that I can make him feel human by realizing my own flaws, even if I can be kind of stubborn and don’t admit to them easily.
@@elderfiend6295 The coolest thing I discovered through writing was developing with my characters.
And not just incorporating their flaws, but their Passion as well!
Couldn't have worded it any better
I've had this one idea for a self-insert as a joke for a while now, and the joke is that a character that looks, sounds and is basically me, gets either floored or killed in the strangest way possible. I don't hate myself, I just find that Idea funny. If I'm going to be in the story, I'm the unluckiest man in that story, be it a main character or a background gag.
that sounds hilarious, just, as a concept LMAO
Same bro, except my self insert has some wins, but the loses out way the wins
this is literally my friend lmao. there's 3 of us who all have our own writing verses and we frequently collab and he in particular has himself as the main character but all the worst things ever just happen to him all the time, it's so funny
They did that in Live A Live. One of the directors appears in every story as a joke/gag character (Watanabe) who gets brutally killed or tortured in some new, wacky way. In one chapter he appears to join the party and then gets immediately eaten by a T-Rex. In another he arrives at town right when bandits are attacking and gets run over. In another he's sneaking around a castle before he falls into a trapdoor and gets killed by a pit of snakes. In another he's a janitor in a spaceship, trips and falls on the airlock button and gets flung into space.
The Winglet
I think the biggest deciding factor is "Does this character disrupt your immersion?" If your suspension of disbelief is broken, if the lack of any real challenge to this character is making the story so boring it can't keep your attention, If you find yourself rolling your eyes and saying, "Oh God THIS asshole again"; it's a bad self-insert. Obviously that's not the only factor, there's more dimensions to it, but I think this should be the biggest red flag to look out for when writing a self-insert.
Sung Jun Woo: (Moistcritical) Wooooo!!
Kirito: (The Rock) Complete Dogshit
I almost wonder if that response can be used at an advantage. Like you actually make a believably insufferable character in and out of the written universe, and explore that arc and see where it goes.
That would involve a great deal of introspection, though.
But couldn't you write like that purposefully to achieve some goal, like parody? It just seems wrong to universally declare any execution of a trope just inherently wrong/bad
@@tyrone687 You could, but it would be VERY difficult to pull off well. It would take a skilled writer. You gotta know the rules to break them in a way that works, you know?
@tyrone687 if you're doing this for a living you gotta appeal to at least a niche audience. The second you're doing creative work for a publication, studio, etc. You just have to accept that if your audience ain't happy, you'll lose them. No audience, no paycheck. If you wanna just have fun, don't do creative work for a career.
When you realise denji and guts are self inserts
Denji maybe, but not Guts. Don't now what shit you smoking.
Shinji ikari and Luke skywalker are self inserts
is chansaw man's + beserk's author okay? ((especially beserk))
@@RayDrawzDragonz chainsaw man's writer is a nerd in his 20s and he's fine, muira the guy behind berserk is dead. rip.
oh god...
"Self-insert" is a slider and not really a specific character type. Everyone necessarily inserts aspects of themselves and their experiences into a character. It's the portrayal of the character that makes it apparent when it's literally just meant to be a self-insert or ego writing.
I like your name and pfp
@@Natureboy224 lol thanks. My pfp is from "Wynonas Big Brown Beaver" by primus
@@bloodmancer4824 lol thanks, I'll look it up
The whole point of writing is to express a little bit of your own personality into your story. That's literally the whole point of art as a concept. It's impossible to write a main character without putting a little bit of yourself into them.
I think there is a really good conversation to be had about "what makes a self-insert character bad writing?"
Because a good writer can write a legendary work with the most inelegant tools available
How do you define writing as good or bad in a way that's not opinionated/subjective?
@@tyrone687 This is a good question, and I like it a lot.
In the broadest possible context, it isn't possible to objectively define the quality of a story, because art and beauty are inherently subjective. However, if you narrow the scope down to the things people do and don't enjoy, and understand why those things occupy such spaces, I think there's room for a more specific qualitative discussion of art based on how closely it cleaves to the tastes of a given population.
It's like cooking, in a sense. The best possible meal could still taste rancid to someone, and the worst possible meal could taste immaculate to someone else, but knowing which ingredients appeal to whoever you're cooking for does make the overall experience of creation and consumption much more enjoyable for the involved parties.
@@zacharybosley1935 Thank you for the response.
So would it be fair to say at a certain point criticism is just unnecessary, and that there will always be art made for people with a specific taste even if the majority of the population would find that taste bland or revolting, and fighting against that is a fruitless endeavor? A lot of the times I see discussions about good or bad media it seems to be a subset of people enforcing their tastes on others who are simply catering to a different audience, and rarely can I get a straight answer as to how media can be superior in such a way that you can enforce that perspective onto others without it amounting to ego tripping
@@tyrone687 I would say that there is definitely a point where criticism is functionally pointless. Telling me my favorite movie is bad doesn't make it not my favorite movie, y'know?
@@zacharybosley1935 Yes I understand at a certain point criticism becomes projection and feel like criticism is mostly valuable from your peers and your dedicated audience - the people who are trying to achieve the same goals as you and the people who want you to achieve your goals
Sometimes the main character being a self insert is the entire point.
I’ve been writing a comic for over 10 years now, with my main philosophy being “write what you want to read”. What I wanted to read was someone with my personality and difficulties being the main character instead of just an extra or the butt of a joke, as it often was in both fiction and reality.
As I’ve recently discovered, I’m autistic, and the MC in the comic being a self insert was a huge advantage in helping me accept it faster. It also explained why I so desperately wanted to write someone like me, since autistic people are often infantilized, not taken seriously, or just assumed incompetent (as I have been for years).
I’m the opposite in the way. Using a self insert that’s a supporting role or background character really helps me (I have 2 self inserts, one is serious, one is kinda just there. The second one is very silly). I’ve always wanted to help others, and having a self insert that helps me find myself while also supporting the mc is a great way for me to find my flaws and develop with the character. It’s also just fun to make a character that’s similar to me. As for the background character one, it’s kinda like Toby Fox having a dog self insert. He’s just a silly way to reference myself hehe
Edit: I’m also autistic, so I get having a self insert to accept yourself faster. I wish I used that back when I got my autism diagnosis.
Here's the thing, it's one thing to be writing a character that autistic, it's another for said character to share almost every single trait with the writer
@@christophermonteith2774 I actually agree with you, and that's something I realized a few years ago with my main character. I tweaked her personality quite a bit to make her role feel more compelling, and I've been gradually removing parts of myself from her character that didn't add to the story or were forgotten about later in the plot. Other than us both being autistic, me and my main character are almost nothing alike at this point. You can go give it a read if you don't believe me (linked in my channel desc).
On another note, I think it's impossible to write a story alone without parts of the writer seeping into every character they create, whether they're conscious of it or not. That's why having a team or a writing group can be so valuable; every person in that group will have characters in their minds that someone else wouldn't have dreamed of. In that regard, *every* character is a self insert.
How to write a good self-insert: Make them an omnipotent god character in the lore manipulating things from the shadows, barely involved and just as a joke/easter egg/lore thing. Because in a meta sense, that's what you are to your characters, their god and ultimate creator. Like what Toby Fox, Scott Calthon, and the creator of Ultima does/did.
How to write a bad self insert: Make them the main character, make everything revolve around them, make them perfect and infallible, make them an unlikable prick, etc.
thing with self-inserts is, they can be just as good as any other character, however, they are extremely liable to being written poorly since they are what author views themselves as and it's a lot more tempting to put them in a good light/be precious with them then a character that doesn't exist in real life
The thing is one of the biggest fictional icons was by all means a self insert. Spider man was a self insert of steve ditko. He was the artist and writer, and peter looked and acted like steve. To the point that for a while, peter had the same political beliefs as steve. But now he is now the most well known super hero. I think self inserts nowadays have a dirty connotation cause of projects like Im not starfire and velma having characters that look like someone who worked on the projects(didn't help both were REALLLYY bad lmao). But the truth is that self inserts aren't always bad, but bad writing can make the whole "self insert" thing stick out like a sore thumb. We shouldn't always judge something for having a self insert. Instead, just judge the writing instead.
Honestly social media has made it so it's more obvious when a character is a self insert.
@@GraveyardMaiden Yeah because too often they spoil their own story and then wonder "why did nobody read/watch/enjoy this?"
@@ExeErdna FR, plus the writing for those ones tend to be pretty bad
@@GraveyardMaiden The moment the screening that the fans are wrong and their work is "groundbreaking" is the moment it gets worse. If they didn't respect the work enough to not spoil it. How can they be mad people don't like it?
@@ExeErdna bruh what's worse is when the work is basically them making a wojak comic
No, but making a self insert without making them a Mary Sue requires a lot of thought and care to make sure they are properly balanced and seem like an actual person as opposed to a wish fulfillment character.
What's a Mary Sue?
@@zacharybosley1935 There's a Harry Potter fanfic called "My Immortal", that should give you a great example.
@@zacharybosley1935 your pfp
Nice
@@ok-tr1nw thanks. Same to you
@zacharybosley1935 typically a character who is not only flawless and devoid of any real issues and face no adversity, but they are also characters the story is heavily biased towards and bends backwards for. They can either be kind or complete jerks, but if they are a jerk and everyone still acts like they are the best thing since sliced bread, then that's a sign of a Mary Sue.
You don't expect them to show up in Canon works since Mary Sues are often a sign of bad writing and a hallmark of a very amateurish writer. The male version of this character would be called a Gary Stu.
And lastly this other quote I recall
"The Mary Sue is a story trope who's central hero is a nearly perfect woman who is moral, knowledgeable and capable character that exists in the story where the supporting cast of character exists only to highlight the pre-established hero's multi faceted perfection. It isn't an archetype because it isn't timeless and because it requires a pandering supporting cast"
I love how Rohan Kishibe is Araki's self insert for JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, and he's a weird annoying shut in with an insanely op stand, and he's a fan favorite character.
Personally In my opinion no, just like most things in writing in my opinion, nothing is inherently bad rather it be a tactic or idea. Its just the execution that makes it bad. I'll most likely come back and update this after I fully watch the video but using the thumbnails images those are example of good and bad executions of self-inserts. Inserts like Toby Fox, or Stan lee are cool, and or nods to the viewer. I haven't read that starfire comic but in my opinion the one self-insert i hate the most is the miraculous lady bug thing with Thomas Astruc and Imma leave it at that.
When Stan Lee did it, he was just making cameos in his own work. he was on screen for 10 seconds making some kind of joke. heck, there have been directors self-inserting themselves into their own movies for years. the director of Lord of The Rings and even some of the writers inserted themselves into the movie as soldiers. in Legendary's Godzilla Monsterverse, the same happened again with the director inserting himself as a soldier too, and you wouldn't know it was him unless you looked at the credits.
Then there's these self-inserts. most of the time it feels like they're venting about their own personal frustrations. like the 'I'm Not Starfire' comic. the writer clearly had problems with her own mother and decided to make a story out of that. problems that are still unresolved. just look at the photos of the real person. she looks like she's annoyed at the mere presence of everyone in the room and is waiting for a reason to cut someone's head off. then there's Velma. that show is nothing but Mindy Kaling in animated form.
I don't mind self inserts as long as it's clever or just for laughs. but this is just my opinion.
I swear if people are dissing Stan The GOAT Lee because they think his cameos are self-inserts... People will be real mad 😡
Anyone who believes self inserts as a very broad concept are bad writing has read far too much bad Tumblr writing advice. The book "To Kill A Mockingbird" has a self insert in it. The problem itself is any character with no flaws who doesn't struggle with anything
Saw another comment asserting the idea of the self-insert as a spectrum, since often people will insert aspects of themselves into their characters to varying degrees. The direct author- stand-in form of self-insert, however, is just something that needs to be handled with increased care and self-awareness than normal.
In other words a Mary sue/ Gary stu?
A self-insert isn't automatically bad, it's just that if the character is also badly written or put on a pedestal, it adds insult to injury.
If you wanna put yourself in your story, go ahead. But if you do it just to make yourself feel cool without actually offering a compelling or enjoyable character, then it's just gonna be extra embarrassing.
So it needs a certain level of humility.
I've never seen anyone throw a tantrum over original characters. Just good story or bad story. People need imagination. It's sorely lacking these days.
He's imagining things to talk about at that point
The Good, the Bad, and The Stan Lee
I wanna say something that I am open to being COMPLETELY wrong about but it was a thought that came in my head when you mentioned there seems to be more female self inserts. I think in a lot of cases the self inserts tend to be a romantically involved thing, not all of them just quite often. I feel like men and women typically have a different ideal in that women want someone that would fall in love with who they are, and men want to be a person that someone wants to fall in love with. We don’t create self inserts we create the ideal person we want to be. It’s more often a man tries to create an ideal image of what they want and not just themselves. I notice that women especially when writing fan fiction or something just want what they are to be accepted and for someone to find attractiveness in that. Again this is just a shower thought with not much investigation we can talk about this but Im not looking to argue just wondering if this has any merit
I actually agree with some of this too. Most of it actually
Yes. I think that might be a trend or a trope, especially in romance fiction. That one would make a good video, IMO!
I agree with this too. You can see it in some music. Some songs from boy bands or artists the lyrics describe a girl but there are not actually descriptions. Its done up in a way that any girl can imagine themselves as the focus of the song. Not 100% 1 to 1 but when i had this pointed out to me i started seeing it a lot.
Benny in the Lego Movie self inserts himself into the film in the middle of it and stays till the end and I think that's the most in-character thing he has ever done
My biggest gripe with self inserts is when creators make the other characters revolve around them - literally and personality-wise.
Adding up to the logic at the beginning. Mentioning All x are y is pretty easy to debunk. For that to be true, that means that there exist no x that is y. If there is a single x that is not y, poof, logically invalid.
If you want to be a bit more "logical" its better to say some x are y (or most x are y, if you want to exaggerate). For example, there are probably many people that put a self insert in their stories out of narcissism, but not all of them... hell, probably not even most of them (at least not professionals, Tumblr/Deviant art... well...).
Wait a second, I don't need to look up examples of male self inserts, literally almost every isekai and harem protagonist is criticized for being a self insert. That's like a shit ton of se;f insert specifically male characters. I don't think it happening to a specific gender more calls for sexism though, like I don't think just because *more people call male characters self inserts than female characters that's cause of sexism, I just think there are more male self insert characters that exist than female self insert characters. And you have sword art online playing in the background throughout this video so I assume you're aware of the criticism very often levied at harem and isekai type of stories.I don't know why sexism is the first thing you go to for an explanation for that, definitely feel there's more to it than that.
Eh, honestly, they tend to be placeholder characters, rather than actual self inserts. A bland, any man character being placed in a fantasy situation isn't a self insert, a self inserts is inserting yourself into the story as a major character, often as the protagonist, and as a Mary sue. This is in comparison to the likes of a background character or cameo, or even having an OC in the story, as those aren't really major or even really the person themselves, unless said OC is basically a carbon copy of themselves
@@christophermonteith2774 I disagree, but your opinion is your own I suppose
It depends. Self-Inserts can be used to show us the personal weakness of the writer or the audience.
And self inserts are bad when the writer doesn't give them any weaknesses or real flaws
The reason female self inserts are talked about more is because there are more of them in recent times. There was actually a study done that showed boys and men want to be characters (on average) & girls and women want characters to be them (on average). Take the new velma for example
source?
I have yet to meet a girl who hasn't said something to me like "omg I want to be her", I've even said the same thing before and think that too.
@ScritRighter May I speak with you, or text rather? You don't seem to fully understand the conservative position in regard to politics and media. I can explain what I know about the conservative perspective, and you can explain the writer perspective. This will be in my opinion educational and valuable for both of us.
I still like how Hirohiko Araki, author of Jojo's bizzare adventure, who is known for showing villains kill dogs, had his pseudo self insert be attacked by dogs in one the arcs in part 4
Right...... I get it now.
I don't hate self inserts as a whole,
Heck I do that too
What I hate are authors/writers that age down a self inserts of them and have that character date an underaged character.
I always thought self inserts are mostly male because I can only remember one guy who self inserted into power puff girls. It's weird.I didn't know ray skywalker is considered to be a self insert. I thought she's just generally seen as a mary sue only.
I also don't think of Rey as a self insert. I mean, what traits does she share with whichever creator, and how many of said traits are inserted into Rey as a character? If it's really generic and/ or very very few, then can't really call it a self insert. If it's a pretty large amount of traits that aren't super generic, then yeah, it probably is a self insert.
It really depends Who inserts him/her selves. If its a good author, you'll hardly even notice and likely love the story. If its a terrible story, it will glare like a sore thumb and keep getting reminded this is this girl's story. Simple as.
I came expecting a rant that agrees with me that self inserts are cringe and it ruins writing.
I left having a deep reflection on myself and having a new viewpoint on self inserts and writing as a whole
This made me reflec on my own self insert character of my own little story, it being me in all but name, and how I reflect on I or he would fell upon being casted beyond our world, the real one to one of fantasy and power beyond our imagination which spand across to millions others, but not in the fact of being one of the strongest beings, but being one that suffers in the mind as much as in the body, denied of aging and forever separated from his family, untill being told that he can come back to the real world, but it would take years of struggle, begining with him going on said quest by his own desires to see his parents and family back, but overtime turning into a promise to another character and those she cared for, the new links and friendships he would make, a family which he would help make by his compasion thought by his parents, the people and worlds he would visit, the battles and struggles he would face.
And atlast when it all comes to an end, the ultimate choise of either his real family that he missed for a decade, a chance to return to OUR world, or chosing instead to remain here with the new family he helped made, with the new friends and people he has meet, with all the power and knowledge he has acumulated.
On that I always pondered.
What would My choise be?
Self inserts have the same issues as Mary sues except that self inserts can be good.
They are narrative issues not character issues.
And that's why they are considered part of bad writing because one is a advanced writing mechanism that requires experience to be done and doing it badly leads to narrative issues and Mary sues while the other is just that.
It's Like saying edgelord characters and loners or pervs are signs of bad writing
There are three types of self inserts
Type one is putting yourself or a parallel as you as a kind of “god”. Examples of this are Stan Lee, who is practically the god of marvel in the comics and the concept is pushed by other writers, and Stephen King, who made himself a pseudo prophet of his works with a fictionalized version of himself in the Dark Tower series
Type two is people that can’t actually create an original character
Type three is writers trying to make relatable characters, but just making carbon copies of themselves because they think their entire audience is just like them
Self inserts are like plastic surgery: if I can easily tell you did it, you did something wrong.
One of my favourite self inserts is McPig (aka Pizza Tower Guy), the creator of the game Pizza Tower. He resides in the game’s levels and when Peppino gets to him before a minute passes in the level, he’ll simply disappear.
He isn’t a main character nor is he part of the story, but rather a neat Easter Egg for speedrunners.
Now THAT is how you do a self insert (at least for video game standards).
I've heard women read romance novels more often (as well as read more books overall) and I feel like having a female lead in a romance be unique or special in any way defeats the purpose of the novel. It's meant to be a self-insert because then it'd be a message to women about how they're not funny, rich, pretty, or x-y-z enough to attract a romantic partner.
Of course, when you got fools like Kirito that have super abilities mixed with their bland personalities, it's kind of offensive to me. It's fine to be a self-insert, but not a Mr. Sue...never a sue...
Anyway, it is never wrong to insert a Hideo Kojima into your story. So I really like that line "What if the guy inserting himself is a pretty cool guy?" >,< You're pretty good.
As I’ve been writing my book I’ve come to find every character could qualify as a “self insert” they’re all me, different parts.
We write from our own perspectives, so anything we come up with will have a bit of “us” in it.
12:00 this does bring up an interesting point. If you like something in one instance and not the other, then there’s some kind of double-standard going on here. Self insert characters are not bad in and of themselves, regardless of what role they play in the story. It all comes down to how they’re written, and self-inserts can be clumsily handled. But that can be true of ANY story element. A villain redemption might not work given a certain context, but gets shoved in anyways. Certain battles and powers are added for rule of cool without thought of how they contribute to the story. As someone who makes a LOT of self-insert OCs, I believe that people should be allowed to write self-inserts. And it’s okay if they’re written poorly sometimes, because there’s ALWAYS something to be learned about writing from looking at those earlier characters and going “okay, I see where such and such didn’t work, but I liked this and think it worked well!” People shouldn’t be deterred from making something FUN just because others might hate it. Because self-inserts can become just as beloved as completely original characters.
I have this symbolic black cat self insert character. But the reason why it is in every world I write, is to give some hope and love to my characters to stay strong through any traumatic moment I know they will go through. If they are to die I'd want to share them comfort in their last moments. If in any world they are real, I'd want to give them some small bit of comfort in their lives to show that even if they aren't real, I still do love them as especially some of them had helped me through my life as well. If it not the self insert cat, I give them someone or something else.
GTA V is the perfect example of self inserts the Hood from downtown LA but kind of failing Hollywood guy and the kind of crazy masculine guy who is highly relatable
Self inserts aint that bad as long as they're form of exploration
So this is a 'battle' I've been fighting for people to understand that a self-insert is not particularly bad, and I can at least say that my circle of people understand the story I'm writing and can see the vision I'm going for. My 'main' character is one for one based on my line of thinking, however, they're actions are dialed up to eleven based off of those lines of thinking and this means merits and flaws and all. There's a LOT I'm trying to do with my series I'm building and there are a lot of characters that I want to have the spotlight focus on for readers/viewers to enjoy, but the main character is indeed one of them that I'd imagine if it wasn't for the literal name, people might even think it would just be another character. Self-inserts aren't something I see as a bad thing per say, but I do see when characters aren't challenged enough to explore the flaws that they believe in and it makes them boring, something I think is fun to delve away from to challenge one's self of thinking.
I feel like when writing a story, self inserting is just normal since you are the person who knows yourself best so of course your gonna end up giving your characters similar personalities and looks that mirror yourself
Only to an extent. If it's almost a mirror image, then that is a self insert proper, and is hard to justify ( even if not impossible), and is likely somewhat narcissistic, depending on the handling. If it's simply you within the story, it can be ok, if it's you being favoured by the story, or not even having a story to speak of, it's more than likely bad.
Neon Genesis Evangelion is one of my favorite pieces of media of all time and the whole thing is basically just a personal essay from Hideaki Anno.
I never thought about doing a self insert in my own little world I wrote but I’m gonna write myself doing something stupid in the background out of spite
If people are gonna complain about self insert talk about Tyler the creator's wolf trilogy.
Stupid edgy for the sake of it? Yeah, that's not the focus. The whole trilogy is about Tyler finding his flaws in therapy, opening up about wanting to keep people trapped in his basement, to confronting all of those thoughts in the form of himself. All personified as Wolf Haley as the perfect version and Samuel (I think. I forgot) as the worst.
Tyler has used self inserts in Igor and people still call self inserts bad?? You can 100% pull off a good self insert if the guy from vine can do golden examples of it _twice._
Dib was Jhonen self insert, and Milo Oblong was Angus selft insert as well
This channel is starting to become one of my fav writing channel's on TH-cam
you have very respectful views!
it's a nice breath of fresh from both sides throwing fruit at each other
In the Guilty Gear fandom, though it's not confirmed, there is a strong belief that the protagonist Sol Badguy is the serie's creator self-insert. Sol is also an incredibly beloved character in the fandom lol.
Oh wow, you actually made a video I really like! Didn't expect that.
Good video that has changed my outlook on the topic of “self inserts” thank you
I don't really write self inserts at least not for my actual stories(sometimes a little cringe can be fun), but I have had some cases were I will take an aspect of myself or a thought process and use that as a basis for a character, though the more I expand on them the more they start to become seperate from me, the thing is sometimes your personal experiences can be a pretty good basis for a character or story especially if you've had a perculiar life experience, like a case I've seen were a guy with a rare condition created a game to sorta represent how that condition feels
I always ask myself. Is there a way for a self insert to actually work? Is there a very rare chance for a self insert MC to actually be great?
I always wondered because I wanted to create one. I just hope I can make it work.
Probably the most hottest self-insert ever created is Stripperella,
even though she is also badly written.
Everyone's favorite self-insert on the other hand is none other than Peter Parker,
because Steve Ditko based the character off of his teenaged self.
My buddy is working on a story he wants to make into an animated web-series. Me and some other friends will have characters based off of ourselves. I want him to succeed so I will definitely be sharing this with him.
Other Authors: Self insert as 1 character
J.R.R.Tolkien:Entire race of creatures
A word that popped into my head while watching this video and hearing your points about this topic, more specifically about criticism and writing as a whole, is effort. How much effort either the creative or the critic puts into it. Does a writer take the time to make a self insert a real human with flaws and issues, no matter how mundane they might be? Does a critic think of actual issues with a self insert beyond the points that can be pointed out in less than a second? Because effort should be required to do either. And in a world where more and more creatives (especially on social media platforms) go for the bare minimum in order to gain the maximum amount of profit is it any wonder why genuine criticism gets treated in the same field as people who make long form videos out of 1 singular complaint, whether political or not. This I feel is starting to be reflected in writing, or at least that is what I have been hearing from multiple parties. As I personally don't go out of my way to listen to media criticism anymore simply because I have better things to do with my time. I don't want to make the effort.
Self insert characters often feature character flaws that are not treated as such. An author willing to make a character based entirely on himself or herself can also overlook it's flaws, since the author is used to his or her own flaws
A self-insert is not bad in itself, but it's how the author either reveals how conceited he/she is or how he/she is willing to expose him/herself to scrutiny. No one likes an inflated ego, but everyone likes identifying their own vulnerabilities through someone else's
The reason that self inserts are often seen as bad is because they tend to be self insert wish fulfillment slop, or weird fetish fuel.
For a good self insert, you need to find works that are done by people who have reflected on themselves, and can notice their flaws, which is very rare in modern media, which either cynical, self-aggrandizing, or narcissistic.
Most Good SI media is found in creative writings found on Forums, Fanfiction, usually, such as This Bites on Spacebattles, which is a One Piece SI fic that has a good understanding of the Characters and the World they inhabit to allow for the enhancement or a seamless blending of the world, and something else to note is that the character isn't very powerful, being outright one of the weakest in the cast, and having to rely on making allies, trickery, and leveraging abilities to succeed in many cases.
Aye yo what if someone made a surprisingly good story about a guy watching T.V. 😂
I approach my own self insert in my stories with a comedic angle. They aren’t a main character or side character, they’re a background comedic character who is completely incompetent and is always unnamed when seen, bc laughing at yourself is the key to comedy and it wouldn’t feel right to not give them flaws lol.
AP *Whistle x2 + snap* I SAW THAT SANS CANT SNEAK THAT BY ME
14:03 Honestly the sole reason why the writer for I'm not Starfire is thought to have used the mc as a self insert besides their similar appearances is because of the mc also being a Mary Sue in the first place. She is extremely arrogant and complains about everything, while having the narrative villainize everyone around her that does not agree with her own statement. They dessecrate two well loved characters in Robin and Starfire just to make the mc look good without having her face her own self-destructive tendencies, only to have her come out somehow stronger by defeating the literal warmonger that previously defeated Starfire as her first battle.
Many people view this comic as a powerfantasy dedicated to the author, and some began to compare her to the mc.
What if a self-interest is a hero but he turns into a villain afterwords in the universe there in? That's what I'm trying to try out
The only way a self insert can work if it involves dying multiple times
(Warning: Essay ahead)
TBH I think self-inserts have equality genders in it and sometimes it can be cool and there are a few stories that do this extremely well and the character doesn't suck nor destroy the plot of the story and it's your way on how you would handle the story if you were in that fictional world and most of the times it's fully accepted in fandoms. In video game where you create your character, backstory, power kit, etc. and when games do explore with it makes it fun for you as the main character and with games that make you choose your own story it's great you can be the hero or the villain or the chaotic neutral rouge that you outta be it's even better. Freedom of imagination!
If the story is actually about you like an autobiography then you have full permission to self insert because it's your our lived experiences and your full point of you so it fine.
...But the other times not so much... Sometimes it comes off as cringe especially if it's in a main stream franchise and your working for it and you start giving your self-insert a harem or some other cringe that kind of ruins the plot of the story and it becomes all about you and not the other character's around you, and your changing the core characters around you.
Basically you become a Mary or Gary sue. Especially if you make yourself OP or change the rules that the story has set. That's why there are an infinite amount of DnD Horror Stories, because some people just wanna be selfish or what what you and I don't think it's right when that happens because it's not fair to the players or the audience watching the movie or show or reading the book. Then when people call you out it can go many ways it just depends your reaction too it.
Not everyone is like this though...Thank god.
How to properly write A self insert: Remember that you’re not A God, you’re just an average human, so the story should be tragic and hilarious, because life is tragic and hilarious. You could insert yourself as the author, helping the characters, or you could insert yourself as another character with powers. Do NOT, under ANY circumstances, whatsoEVER, make your insert be the most powerful, or most knowledgeable, or most kind. Everything has A limit, and everything has A weakness, your insert should NOT be the exception. Also, do not centre the story around your character. Normally, A character takes actions to build the story, not the other way around. One powerful story device can be A simple musical instrument that the character holds so dear, and both you and your insert likely have an object to treasure. Invest time on your insert’s items, and the audience could feel sad when the character loses that item. (The last bit was pulled from A heavy 2-part critique of High Guardian Spice, strangely enough.)
Self inserts as the main character is the typical pitfall. We are affectively seeing the world through the perspective of the writer, giving us a sometimes unintentional peek into their mind. If this character is unlikeable with no self awareness, it's fair to assume the writer is unlikeable with no self awareness.
Especially when said writer says something that are unlikebale with no self-awareness on Twitter... RIGHT as their work is getting reviews...
I think self inserts are fine. As long as your not stroking your own ego or playing out some romantic fantasy. I think they can be A great way to have some self reflection on yourself as A whole.
I think the self-insert criticism most people throw around mindlessly if they dislike a character is simply a misunderstanding of what they dislike with said character. It's common in a lot of places. Person sees something they dislike, might not fully understand what it is that they dislike with whatever they see, and once they find something that's relatively accurate, they use that complaint.
Best comparison I can make is disliking a drink. I get a drink from McDonalds, taste it, and it's shit. I know for a fact that the drink is shit, but most likely don't know _why_ it is shit, so the best reason I'll be able to come up with is whatever makes most sense to me. Maybe it tastes way too sweet, so I guess that it's because there's too much syrup, when, in reality, it may be something else. Does that make sense? Idk if I explained it well.
What people dislike about self-inserts isn't because they are self-inserts. What they dislike about self-inserts is that some of them act as selfish, borderline fetish-y power fantasies that are obnoxious to read. We need to better inform these people about this so they can learn about what they dislike and better express it when they see it.
Fairy tail is one of the best examples of self inserts being written well since most of the characters arr based on the creators friends and drinking buddies
I think self inserts are a normal Part of the Development of a writer. Weather you notice it or not, you write what you know, and you happen to know yourself better then anyone. I didn't notice how similar one of the protagonists of the story I'm working on is to me, until someone pointed it out. But then I noticed, each of the protagonists share some aspects of myself in some way!
There’s Mary/Gary sues then there’s well written self inserts.
Most Mary/Gary sues are female inserts. This is because a large portion of women cannot see their own flaws. While male inserts are more popular because they know their own flaws. Most Men are criticized throughout of their life. On the other hand women get a fair share of criticism but not as much as men.
It’s not hard to create a well written female self insert. Fiction is subjective but still flaws are still needed to make a character believable even in a fictional story.
Examples of such being Superman. He has godlike strength but the compassion of a human being.
We aren’t perfect that’s why we like flaws and when a character overcomes such flaws we enjoy it.
Even the strongest characters you can think of in fiction have flaws whether it be an omnipotent godlike character or the smallest insignificant character. Each has their own flaws to make them a believable being in their respective universe.
I think the problem with the hypothetical math equations is that their truth depends on the idea they represent.
Let’s consider families as “the idea”.
1 + 1 = 2 but can equal 3 or more and can still result in 1, however, depending on if it escalates badly. You have the parents coming together to make 2, and they can decide if they want to be more than 2 by having children; but if they have a falling out, they can become 1 or remain 2 or more depending on if one of them keeps the kids they both had.
Let’s take the “apples” explanation of basic math that we’re taught as kids.
Does the number of apples you add together really make 2 or more apples or do the conditions of the other apples factor into whether the added apple counts as 1?
For instance, if you take an apple that’s whole and add an apple that’s been eaten down to the core, does that really count as an additional apple or does it only matter if it’s a separate apple? If not the latter, then you suddenly have to factor in percentages of individual apples, which could have worms burrowing into them and reducing the whole of the apple.
Math, when applying different subject matters to the equations, can be very different than the straight forward methods we’ve been using. I can come up with multiple ideas where 1 + 1 doesn’t “always” equal 2.
The rhetorical math question you brought up as an example is only dishonest because there’s not a truthful, real-world idea that it stems from. It’s presented in a vacuum where it can have no validity.
No beef, just thought I’d share my two cents.
Math is a tautology which is means to say the same thing twice in different words. When we say something 'equals' another, it is not a matter of opinion or rhetoric, it is a statement of fact. It is always true by logic.
In your example, 1+1 would not = 3 for a man and woman having a kid together. If you wanted to represent that relationship with math, it would be closer to do something like: 1+ 1W = 1W+1 where 'W' equals 1 if the woman will not give birth, and W equals 2 if the woman will give birth.
So yes, 1+1 ALWAYS equals 2, because you are making a Tautological statement. By definition tautology is always true. Math is not an invention, it is a discovery, and it is objective.
Even by the other example you give, if you eat an apple down to its core the math remains the same. You have one apple, and one apple core. Therefore you have two things. You have one apple and one apple with worms. Two things.
And depending on how you categorize it, you could have three things. The apple, the other apple, and the worms. But we could equally argue that depending on how we categorize, we can have more than two things. The different parts of an apple from stem, to flesh, to seed. We can count those. However, 1+1 still always equals 2. All you're doing in this instance is changing the equation by counting more things. It's not 1 apple + 1 apple = 2 apples, it's 1 apple + 1 apple + 5 worms = 7 things.
Another aspect to this is value. One apple is less valuable than the other because one has worms and the other does not. However, unlike math, 'value' IS subjective. Value is based upon what we regard something to deserve based on our perception and judgement. It's what we determine to be valuable. Value can change for the same person depending on what time it is, or where they are. Or the same thing can be more or less valuable to different people. That is subjectivity. Ice Cream is more valuable on a hot summer's day than it is in a cold winter. Unless you live in a well heated home and you love ice cream.
And just because we attach numbers to it does not mean it is math nor tautology. That's because money isn't a mathematical constant. It's a measure of value and value is a subjective thing. Even the value of a dollar is a matter of collective subjectivity or 'confidence'.
Math is not a matter of rhetoric. It's an observation of truth. It's not an invention, it is a discovery.
I think the problem is it isn't a circle logic it's "Rock, Paper, Scissor" logic the first thing is because of the second, the scound is the because of the third and the third is because of the first. That's why they work... The issue is when creatives get mad their work is called out for being bad all it does is confirmes the trinity.
A character is never a poorly written character because of politics. Corporations have been using politics to cover for productions they are making as low quality cash grabs assembled by committee, which is... Annoying but fair enough to ignore. Getting enough diverse characters in mass media that this no longer works as a cover and we can call bad movies bad is a good goal.
I prefer to use the term author stand-in, a character who represents the author. An example from literature that I can remember is the blind prophet in the Odyssey, that Odysseus met in the underworld. Some say he is the author stand in for Homer. ( If you believe Homer was a person and not a group of writers but that is it's own can of worms.) Whereas how I think of self inserts as kind of like an author's attempt to have a power fantasy to live vicariously through the protagonist who is an ideal version of the author because they aren't satisfied with where they are in life, creating really shallow characters and is self indulgent. The MC is just a stronger, smarter, sexier, and etc version of said author. Whereas an author's stand in usually has more nuance, has actual internal conflict, and generally isn't the protagonist. (However I think a truly skilled author can write a protagonist who is an author stand in that is compelling.) Ultimately in my opinion what seperates the two is how it's executed.
Why do I feel like I have seen this video before despite it being one day old?
My oc is a self insert, she's 12 and doesn't look like me, but she used to, but she shares my personality
Though I can agree with you in certain points I believe that the “I am not starfire” comic is just bad use of self inserts. The main character of the book is bad because in the context of the story she doesn’t fit at all. Starfire is slim,has powers and has pink/red hair, you would think her daughter would have inherited some of those traits but no. Mandy is fat, black haired, and at least at the start of the story has no powers. The problem with Mandy is not that I don’t like her (which I don’t)but that she is just a mouth piece for the writer to say whatever she wants. Besides, Mandy is a character who is rude and sarcastic to everyone for no apparent reason, she never learns anything throughout the story ,she doesn’t change and adapt to her situation or gets better as a person, instead she gets everything she wants while still being a dick and never addressing her own problems. Self inserts are bad when they hijack the whole story to just being about this character who is perfect at the beginning of the story and perfect at the end and self inserts are good when it’s about creating new characters based on you own experiences or to just be an Easter egg like Stanley.
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7:36
I'm sorry... did I just watch shadow the hedgehog pump... an M4? An automatic rifle?
It depends on the context. Are we on watt pad or are we reading an actual book?
12:07 I’m saying it right here, right now. Dante’s inferno is by far the WORST of the trilogy and idk why people like that one so much over the other two
Here's my philosophy for writing: There's always a good way of writing something and a bad way of writing something. Most, if not all, tropes can be done well and done poorly. For example, one of the most hated tropes is the Scrappy character. No one likes a Scrappy. However, the Scout from TF2 is an example of a scrappy, and most people love his character. He's got funny lines and has this charm about him that makes him enjoyable. You just need to be aware of how other people will see your writing and do some peer review.
i kinda self insert myself in one comic book idea, but it was more of exploring how i felt, when i was feeling exhausted by works and feat of heart attack or passing out, i kinda wrote that in the story, because i usually like writing stories that i can relate too,
it's can be like a journey,
one of the best children novel writing, tove, creator of moomin did a tons of self insert, but it was about narcism, it was more of confort of her self, making a safe place behind war, capitalism, homophobia and alot of stuff. it was also a idea of how life can be like.
i also insert people i khow because i fell like sometime to show how you fell, you got to show it, and then they might see.
Stan Lee is the best one because he’s a kind man just living in the universe
I created my own self-inserts story about what’s it like of being a superhero.
Stephen kings booksales attest to self inserts being succesfully implemented as main characters
At 7:58 I don't get it. I'm pretty sure Gohan is actually more a self insert than Goku even is. I dunno i need more information on the topic because with Captain marvel and Son Goku people definetly like Goku more character wise than Captain Marvel, but i dont think it is for self insert reasons.
Anyone know the media shown at 16:54 ? It looks like something I'd enjoy lol
Doom Patrol
@@arturakopyan687Thank you, I love you, have a beautiful day.
Oh yes, the divine comedy, my fav fan fiction of all time (Dante x Virgilio canon)
Have not yet watched the video but read the description. Would like to say that in my advanced ela class I took in 10th grade, they forced us to read A Tale of Two Cities by Charles Dickens, which has not one, but two self insert characters. If I remember correctly one of two gets an attractive girl to date him, and the other is a literal christ figure. This seems to suggest you can write a story with literary merit even with slightly cringey self insert characters lol
Meanwhile, there is an entire genre of self-inserts in fanfiction... some hate it, but for others, they can't get enough of it. The greatest ones, though, usually have that honesty if not outright a little bit of vulnerability from the author themselves, and that feeling of connection feels great tbh.
George LUCAS named his chosen one main character LUKE and nobody cares
For me when I consider arguments I also consider the premises of the argument, and if they aren't logical, then the argument isn't valid. Kind of like two parts, where both parts (being premise and conclusion) need to be valid to make a valid argument