The main differences that I see is that the Mister image is much more anti-aliased, and the blur also seems to noticeably enhance the perception of depth, where as the Mupen image looks more flat.
I could quickly tell the first source was quite clearly Mupen in the Waverace comparison, with mister being the 2nd source. It was the aliasing that gave it away for me. I use both fairly regularly to play N64, so it's not a knock on either one.
Personally I like both. They both have places in the Retro Gaming Space. However the Mister FPGA project has almost surpassed the official N64 Hardware. Both have already surpassed Switch Online Emulation. 😜
I love FPGA for 2D games but for 3D graphics I prefer upscaled software emulation. I also don't have nostalgia for the limitations of the day.. RF video, composite, dithering..etc. i don't miss those things or want them emulated
I'm moving even further from software emulators to native ports of n64 games to pc. At this moment we can play 4 of the main titles from n64. Ocarina of Time, Majora's mask, Perfect dark and Mario 64. Absolutely gorgeous! 4k, 60fps (interpolated), hires textures and a lot of mods.
It's amazing how fantastic the FPGA core is. Robert is an S-tier developer. Accomplishing all this within one year of development is outstanding. For comparison, Mupen64 has 8 developers on the project.
Hmm... Seems like Mupen64 bypasses N64 antialiasing treatment completely or to a large degree (and of course you can also do it in the Mister N64 core if you want). You can clearly see it on polygons' edges, they look very raw and jagged on the Mupen side and softened/blurred on the Mister side. I bet if you compare the output of a real N64 to both Mister FPGA and Mupen64 outputs, Mister FPGA will be much much closer to the real thing (on the default settings w/o disabling features). That's how I remember and love N64. I should really thank Robert that he took the time to thoroughly implement the correct N64 image processing pipeline, even though some people dislike it and even try to disable parts of it on their real N64 consoles. It's better to have it in the core and have an option to disable it (for folks who hate it for some reason) than to not have it at all. In my opinion, this is the most correct way to emulate in general - to have everything emulated as close as possible to the original hardware, including all the quirks and oddities of the emulated system, that's not to everyone's taste, and then work from there to perhaps give some options to mitigate them.
Hmmm what plugging did you use in mupen 64? Glide , angrylion or parallel? Glide is cleaner but the other 2 are a lot closer to the N64 especially with 3 point filtering.
@@VideoGameEsoterica this doesnt help, depend of the api you was using and the version of the emulator the default can change so being more detailed would be more useful. Because yea comparing the graphics when you just show about the cpu core is not very uselful…you should comparing the video plugin instead.
@@VideoGameEsoterica @lmgema watched the other video and it is basically the same thing: in Megadrive it doesn't say if it is mame or nuked sound plugin or the core. The SNES doesn't say if it is SNES 9x or bsnes but complain about accuracy. Same for arcade and neogeo ... Complain about accuracy but use FBA neo instead of mame... So in the end it is quite pointless comparison due to the lack of proper information. Especially since emulator default settings are generally for speed and hardware compatible and not accuracy. One last thing, the fpga over emulation advantage is timings and lag but no tests are about that...
This channel is known for not being very knowledgable about software emulation (youtube is not a good source for emulation info in general). Its good for hardware and FPGA stuff, but these comparisons seem to exist to make FPGAs look better.
I'd have to reference a real n64 to decide, I always thought that sort of cleaner look that the emulators give has something to do with using directx or something because every time there was a game that came out on PS2 and PC or whatever console the PC version usually had that cleaner sort of look
Yeah I remember playing Mario 64 and Zelda OOT on my PC in January 1999 on UltraHLE, and that's crazy to think as OOT only came out in November 1998! Nintendo took action shortly afterwards and the website hosting the emulator soon went down. I also remember a Playstation emulator called Bleem around the same time that was actually sold in shops.
I found if you turn off bilinear filtering in the menu, the N64 core looks significantly better. The pixels look sharp, but the anti aliasing is still applied to the polygons. Also, is Robert really still working on the base core? I thought work on it was complete.
Well, I think the vaseline is still here if you really want that. It's in quick menu -> core options -> RDP Plugin - set to Angrylion (is the more precise one), then you'll have a submenu below. Enter it and there are your Vaseline settings, I mean VI Overlay options. "Filtered" is the one you're looking for probably. But wasn't the whole hardware N64 scene shitting bricks over the "disable n64 aa/blur" patches not that long ago? TBH, in my opinion, while everyone was busy with FPGA development and old hardware resurrection/CRT craze/means to connect old consoles to a modern equipment (framemaisters/retrotinks/rgb cables and what have you), the emulation scene wasn't having a break. I mean, fiddling with emulators in early 2000s, I also jumped the true hardware bandwagon and I was in all this too. I now have a big-ass CRT, as well as multiple consoles, scart switches, flash carts and ODEs. However, lately I'm more and more inclined to drop all this stuff. I no longer see the point with the current state of classic consoles emulation (pre XBOX360 era. Well, maybe pre XBOX og/ps2 era). These times you have a variety of cycle-accurate emulators, including FM synth reproduction thanks to MD Fourier or whatever that thing was called, and also great emulator frontends, like emulationstation (and its offspring, like Retrobat for example). I no longer see the point in my stables of Sega Genesis models with different Yamaha chips, or those arcade boards which are so difficult to store and then connect when you want a quick Pacman or Contra jolt. What about pixel doubling and crt? Well, now, when 4k panels are dirt cheap and VFR is found in even a toaster, you can use all kind of CRT simulating shaders - and all this with 65 or 75 inch panels. Good luck finding such a CRT. And so on and so forth. The emulation of more modern consoles, however, is still lacking. It's simply not that mature. While xemu and xenia have been making big strides recently, there's still a long road ahead. The sound is particularly lacking. No surround and improper DSP emulation. And don't forget that while cycle-accurate and frame-perfect emulation is more and more attainable, it's also possible to crank that internal resolution to 4k and enjoy the game the way you like it. Check out NFSHP2 at 4k in PCSX2 for example, which I'm now having a blast with. It's like a proper remaster or something.
I prefer the look of the Mister FPGA for these games, though wonder how much difference there (still) would be left when both have CRT mask (trinitron) filters applied or viewed on an actual CRT monitor.
My understanding AA/blur on real N64 is done on the HW as opposed to on the game ROM. Which makes sense why the n64 core looks the way it does. I know there are some gameshark codes which can disable AA, not sure how the n64 core runs, if you could run an ed64 style menu rom loader that accepts gameshark codes, you could maybe remove the AA if you wanted to test side my side without it... In any case its good to see the two side my side in their stock configurations, thanks!
I don't think you are using the lion plug-in which is software rendered and closer to the bluriness of real N64 hardware. Mupon also eliminates most of the slowdown in 1080 snowboarding which is a GOOD THING. Sometimes 100% accurate emulation is a bad thing especially when it affects your controls.
@@VideoGameEsoterica the lion plug-in is available in retroarch. it cleans up the framerate hitching and other bugs that are seen in the default hardware renderer. it also restores the blurry look. many games are buggy and unplayable on default settings but the software renderer is near perfect. i beat RE2 on it a few weeks ago.
I remember when Nesticle and No$GB came out and they were awesome! I guess I don't understand the emotional attachment that requires someone to select FPGA or software emulation exclusively, just play the games you want the way you want, and get on with your life lol
I'd place a guess on Mupen then MiSTer order... Both look great to me, and I'm only guessing that as it looks bit sharper line edges on the first clip, like the dolphin over the ramp, where looks softer and more natural in the second clip to me. I do like Wave Race, and Mario Kart, but one I'd load up first is Blast Corps, i used to play that so much when it came out, we'd be up all hours playing Goldeneye and Mario kart, then out that would come, i cant think any other game that's similar either, on other systems i could play
I watched your video shortly after upload already, so I'm just commenting here but now that I see the differences, I actually like N64 emulation/replication better with all the weird filters applied to the original hardware. Mupen64, Project64 and the likes are just too clean for the N64's own good. Then again, I much prefer the PS1's and Sega Saturn's style of 3D for that era when it comes to videogame consoles.
@@Imgema Ares, ok thank you...That's why I would like to see Quake and Quake 2, I think they could be a good comparison tool. I think some of the games are easier to emulate but I can spot very quiclky what is emulated from what is not...the feeling is completely different. I'm sure at one point we will get there but for the moment no. Looking forward to see if that will be the case, cheers. Ps: if emulator will riche perfection, that would be the end for FPGA in this field I suppose.
Original n64 whas never clear and sharp. I think mister is here 1:1 to original Hardware. I play the First n64 emu pj64 on a pentium2 450mhz and it runs fine but i habe no Feeling to original Hardware. Mister give me that i miss so long. I love video with mister vs Emulator 👍 I hope more is coming 😊 Thx for this great video
Since the author of the video isn't very informative and the title is a bit misleading, let me clear things a bit. Mupen is the emulator core but this emulator can't work without a gfx plugin. There are a few plugins you can use with it, Parallel being the accurate option. In this video, GlideN64 is used. This plugin is not accurate and it's made with weaker devices in mind. Its not a good representative for a "software emulation vs FPGA" comparison. Parallel RDP is.
Yes, ignore me and let your audience assume (like most of them do as per their replies) all these graphical issues are produced by Mupen64 and not GlideN64. All the graphics are produced by the gfx plugins and you always compare graphics. The out of the box explanation doesn't really explain anything to most of your audience since these can change depending on the device they are using.
Mupen64 Plus Ver 1.7 ? project64-angrylion-plus-win32-v1.6-29-g8a1cc86 ? Options-Plugin Setting Video Setting : Slow, few glitches Video Interface : Filtered Interpolation : Blurry (bilinear) Turn on all the jackdaws! 16:9 No!
The main differences that I see is that the Mister image is much more anti-aliased, and the blur also seems to noticeably enhance the perception of depth, where as the Mupen image looks more flat.
A solid and correct observation about the depth
You can tweak a lot of stuff in mupen to get a similar look, you can replicate the n64 AA or just use Msaa to clean the edges for example.
Very true
Looks like the Mupen 64 is deactivating the bilinear filtering especially.
Yeah, Wave Race 64 first shown is Mupen, second is MiSTer!
Yes it’s def doing things a lot different than real hardware or the core
@METR0lD yeah this one is probably pretty obv lol
I could quickly tell the first source was quite clearly Mupen in the Waverace comparison, with mister being the 2nd source. It was the aliasing that gave it away for me. I use both fairly regularly to play N64, so it's not a knock on either one.
Seems like this comparison was a bit too easy this time haha
Personally I like both. They both have places in the Retro Gaming Space. However the Mister FPGA project has almost surpassed the official N64 Hardware. Both have already surpassed Switch Online Emulation. 😜
Haha switch online emulation is gonna be a fun vid for a comparison
False! Mupon LION is BEST!
I love FPGA for 2D games but for 3D graphics I prefer upscaled software emulation. I also don't have nostalgia for the limitations of the day.. RF video, composite, dithering..etc. i don't miss those things or want them emulated
That’s fair. A lot of people do love the internal upscaling
I'm moving even further from software emulators to native ports of n64 games to pc. At this moment we can play 4 of the main titles from n64. Ocarina of Time, Majora's mask, Perfect dark and Mario 64.
Absolutely gorgeous! 4k, 60fps (interpolated), hires textures and a lot of mods.
Also a very viable and good option
I thought that Robert had said n64 core was finished development, did something change?
Read description :)
It's amazing how fantastic the FPGA core is. Robert is an S-tier developer. Accomplishing all this within one year of development is outstanding. For comparison, Mupen64 has 8 developers on the project.
It’s wild to think it was done in a year too
@@VideoGameEsoterica
i mean, we knew after psx that he would slay n64 if anyone could
even so, the pace was impressive
Super impressive indeed
Hmm... Seems like Mupen64 bypasses N64 antialiasing treatment completely or to a large degree (and of course you can also do it in the Mister N64 core if you want). You can clearly see it on polygons' edges, they look very raw and jagged on the Mupen side and softened/blurred on the Mister side. I bet if you compare the output of a real N64 to both Mister FPGA and Mupen64 outputs, Mister FPGA will be much much closer to the real thing (on the default settings w/o disabling features). That's how I remember and love N64.
I should really thank Robert that he took the time to thoroughly implement the correct N64 image processing pipeline, even though some people dislike it and even try to disable parts of it on their real N64 consoles. It's better to have it in the core and have an option to disable it (for folks who hate it for some reason) than to not have it at all. In my opinion, this is the most correct way to emulate in general - to have everything emulated as close as possible to the original hardware, including all the quirks and oddities of the emulated system, that's not to everyone's taste, and then work from there to perhaps give some options to mitigate them.
Yes it’s a good design choice…implement the entire VI pipeline and then let people turn it all off or certain aspects to dial in a look
Hmmm what plugging did you use in mupen 64? Glide , angrylion or parallel? Glide is cleaner but the other 2 are a lot closer to the N64 especially with 3 point filtering.
All tests are done at whatever the stock settings are across MiSTer and software
@@VideoGameEsoterica this doesnt help, depend of the api you was using and the version of the emulator the default can change so being more detailed would be more useful. Because yea comparing the graphics when you just show about the cpu core is not very uselful…you should comparing the video plugin instead.
I fully agree. This video is basically GlideN64 vs FPGA.
@@VideoGameEsoterica @lmgema watched the other video and it is basically the same thing: in Megadrive it doesn't say if it is mame or nuked sound plugin or the core. The SNES doesn't say if it is SNES 9x or bsnes but complain about accuracy. Same for arcade and neogeo ... Complain about accuracy but use FBA neo instead of mame... So in the end it is quite pointless comparison due to the lack of proper information. Especially since emulator default settings are generally for speed and hardware compatible and not accuracy. One last thing, the fpga over emulation advantage is timings and lag but no tests are about that...
This channel is known for not being very knowledgable about software emulation (youtube is not a good source for emulation info in general). Its good for hardware and FPGA stuff, but these comparisons seem to exist to make FPGAs look better.
I'd have to reference a real n64 to decide, I always thought that sort of cleaner look that the emulators give has something to do with using directx or something because every time there was a game that came out on PS2 and PC or whatever console the PC version usually had that cleaner sort of look
that will be coming soon too as a video...still have vs OG hardware and vs NSO to do
Great video! Is it possible to have a crt filter for the n64 core or is that to much?
There’s tons of CRT cores available :)
I've been playing N64 via emulation since UltraHLE and Corn. That's how old I am.
I didn’t remember about corn
The early 2000’s were a blast.
I remember those days
I downloaded the goldeneye Rom with the Acorn computer we had at school and spread it across a hand full of floppy disks to take it home.
Yeah I remember playing Mario 64 and Zelda OOT on my PC in January 1999 on UltraHLE, and that's crazy to think as OOT only came out in November 1998! Nintendo took action shortly afterwards and the website hosting the emulator soon went down. I also remember a Playstation emulator called Bleem around the same time that was actually sold in shops.
Haha I remember those days. Sharing floppies
I found if you turn off bilinear filtering in the menu, the N64 core looks significantly better. The pixels look sharp, but the anti aliasing is still applied to the polygons. Also, is Robert really still working on the base core? I thought work on it was complete.
It is. I added details in the description. This was on the release candidate core that ended up releasing
Try Simple64 (based on mupen64plus afaik), looks far closer than what im seeing here - the light lens flares work for a start.
I may do more comparisons in the future
Sumple64 is Mupen with Parallel RDP and some extra timing fixes.
Bringing out the🍿for this!
These can spice some people up. I’m just glad we have options
Lol it happened. Glad you had your popcorn
What did I miss!? I was too busy focusing on my popcorn!
Settings arguments 🤣
Are you using a frontend for Mupen64+?
Be interesting to do a comparison with Parallel, that focus more on getting the visuals accurate.
Ares was my “trying to be 100% accurate” comparison
But what's the point of comparing the FPGA (which focuses on accuracy) with an HLE plugin that was created with fast perfomance in mind?
Well, I think the vaseline is still here if you really want that. It's in quick menu -> core options -> RDP Plugin - set to Angrylion (is the more precise one), then you'll have a submenu below. Enter it and there are your Vaseline settings, I mean VI Overlay options. "Filtered" is the one you're looking for probably.
But wasn't the whole hardware N64 scene shitting bricks over the "disable n64 aa/blur" patches not that long ago?
TBH, in my opinion, while everyone was busy with FPGA development and old hardware resurrection/CRT craze/means to connect old consoles to a modern equipment (framemaisters/retrotinks/rgb cables and what have you), the emulation scene wasn't having a break.
I mean, fiddling with emulators in early 2000s, I also jumped the true hardware bandwagon and I was in all this too. I now have a big-ass CRT, as well as multiple consoles, scart switches, flash carts and ODEs.
However, lately I'm more and more inclined to drop all this stuff. I no longer see the point with the current state of classic consoles emulation (pre XBOX360 era. Well, maybe pre XBOX og/ps2 era).
These times you have a variety of cycle-accurate emulators, including FM synth reproduction thanks to MD Fourier or whatever that thing was called, and also great emulator frontends, like emulationstation (and its offspring, like Retrobat for example). I no longer see the point in my stables of Sega Genesis models with different Yamaha chips, or those arcade boards which are so difficult to store and then connect when you want a quick Pacman or Contra jolt.
What about pixel doubling and crt? Well, now, when 4k panels are dirt cheap and VFR is found in even a toaster, you can use all kind of CRT simulating shaders - and all this with 65 or 75 inch panels. Good luck finding such a CRT.
And so on and so forth. The emulation of more modern consoles, however, is still lacking. It's simply not that mature. While xemu and xenia have been making big strides recently, there's still a long road ahead. The sound is particularly lacking. No surround and improper DSP emulation.
And don't forget that while cycle-accurate and frame-perfect emulation is more and more attainable, it's also possible to crank that internal resolution to 4k and enjoy the game the way you like it. Check out NFSHP2 at 4k in PCSX2 for example, which I'm now having a blast with. It's like a proper remaster or something.
Yes there’s plenty of enhancements for software emulators to take them well beyond stock res and looks
loved this video! great job!
People always love these :)
I like these comparisons, once the N64 universal dynamic recompiler is complete, I would like to see that comparison using upscalers.
Once that’s done I def will :)
What's that?
This : Recompilation Makes Zelda 64 NEW Again! A Brand New Majora's Mask
th-cam.com/video/9DDGHSrgDhM/w-d-xo.html
@@VideoGameEsoterica Oh, that's a *static* recompiler though isn't it? Very good news for N64 fans though.
Correct and yes very good news :)
Original Hardware and a CRT is my Setup❤
Same here. Well one of them at least
10:37 did Robert say he’s still working on the N64? I heard he said the core was finished
Read the top of the description :)
@@VideoGameEsoterica ahh ok
I prefer the look of the Mister FPGA for these games, though wonder how much difference there (still) would be left when both have CRT mask (trinitron) filters applied or viewed on an actual CRT monitor.
They’d get closer if you started popping filters on yes
source 2 is the MiSTer for wave racer. I wouldn't have been able to tell had you not described the differences in the previous games.
I maybe made this too easy
The second I saw the N64 anti aliasing, I knew
It’s a giveaway for sure
the youtube compression is a bit kind to that noise-thing N64 does--or maybe the games I play just have more of it.
The compression smoothed it out a bit
My understanding AA/blur on real N64 is done on the HW as opposed to on the game ROM. Which makes sense why the n64 core looks the way it does. I know there are some gameshark codes which can disable AA, not sure how the n64 core runs, if you could run an ed64 style menu rom loader that accepts gameshark codes, you could maybe remove the AA if you wanted to test side my side without it... In any case its good to see the two side my side in their stock configurations, thanks!
Yes the functions are on the hardware
I don't think you are using the lion plug-in which is software rendered and closer to the bluriness of real N64 hardware. Mupon also eliminates most of the slowdown in 1080 snowboarding which is a GOOD THING. Sometimes 100% accurate emulation is a bad thing especially when it affects your controls.
As I mentioned in the video I do these comparisons as out of the box comparisons.
@@VideoGameEsoterica the lion plug-in is available in retroarch. it cleans up the framerate hitching and other bugs that are seen in the default hardware renderer. it also restores the blurry look. many games are buggy and unplayable on default settings but the software renderer is near perfect. i beat RE2 on it a few weeks ago.
Maybe in the future I’ll do diff comparisons on diff settings
I'd like to see how the mister n64 core compares to another small form factor machine like a raspberry pi.
Perhaps in a future video :)
Oh the black box races!
Never had so much fun racing a black box around a track
@@VideoGameEsoterica Seriously, that was really cool.
It was fun to follow the entire process
The differences are insignificant
They aren’t massive no
I remember when Nesticle and No$GB came out and they were awesome! I guess I don't understand the emotional attachment that requires someone to select FPGA or software emulation exclusively, just play the games you want the way you want, and get on with your life lol
That’s really all I advocate for. Play games, have fun!
I'd place a guess on Mupen then MiSTer order...
Both look great to me, and I'm only guessing that as it looks bit sharper line edges on the first clip, like the dolphin over the ramp, where looks softer and more natural in the second clip to me.
I do like Wave Race, and Mario Kart, but one I'd load up first is Blast Corps, i used to play that so much when it came out, we'd be up all hours playing Goldeneye and Mario kart, then out that would come, i cant think any other game that's similar either, on other systems i could play
Blast Corps is always a fun time
Pretty sure the second Wave Race is the fpga....
It was :)
I watched your video shortly after upload already, so I'm just commenting here but now that I see the differences, I actually like N64 emulation/replication better with all the weird filters applied to the original hardware. Mupen64, Project64 and the likes are just too clean for the N64's own good.
Then again, I much prefer the PS1's and Sega Saturn's style of 3D for that era when it comes to videogame consoles.
It’s def a preference and you can dial that look in via Mupen if you want. Ares is out of the box visually doing what the core does
2nd one is mister for wave racer
I would like to see Fpga vs Software of Quake and Quake 2
Maybe in the next set of tests
What software? There are dozens of emulators and plugins.
@@Imgema the best emulator...I would like to see how far emulator are to have the same feelings. for the moment we are way off...
Ares is the best emulator atm. And i disagree, we are not far off. But it depends on where you are getting your emulation news from.
@@Imgema Ares, ok thank you...That's why I would like to see Quake and Quake 2, I think they could be a good comparison tool.
I think some of the games are easier to emulate but I can spot very quiclky what is emulated from what is not...the feeling is completely different. I'm sure at one point we will get there but for the moment no. Looking forward to see if that will be the case, cheers. Ps: if emulator will riche perfection, that would be the end for FPGA in this field I suppose.
First: Emulation
Second: FPGA
Yes :) this one was too obvious
@@VideoGameEsoterica I thought "there's no way they can't tell" 🤣 But the emulator is very impressive, still
It’s all impressive in its own right
the A on dolphin park sign texture is misaligned so i'm guessing 1st video is Mupen
A keen eye indeed
All a form of emulation regardless
You say it like that’s some kind of negative
Second source is FPGA I think.
It’s an easy one this week
Original n64 whas never clear and sharp.
I think mister is here 1:1 to original Hardware.
I play the First n64 emu pj64 on a pentium2 450mhz and it runs fine but i habe no Feeling to original Hardware.
Mister give me that i miss so long.
I love video with mister vs Emulator 👍
I hope more is coming 😊
Thx for this great video
More are def coming :)
Hmm… nah emulation is cheaper and can be tweaked
Sure. But that doesn’t negate other options for everyone
Hard? What's hard? In your waverace example mupen is shown first.
Huh?
Since the author of the video isn't very informative and the title is a bit misleading, let me clear things a bit.
Mupen is the emulator core but this emulator can't work without a gfx plugin. There are a few plugins you can use with it, Parallel being the accurate option. In this video, GlideN64 is used.
This plugin is not accurate and it's made with weaker devices in mind. Its not a good representative for a "software emulation vs FPGA" comparison. Parallel RDP is.
The author of this video is actually very knowledgeable and informative.
Ignore him. Any time I do a comparison be ignored the fact I state multiple times in the video “these are out of the box settings intentionally”
Yes, ignore me and let your audience assume (like most of them do as per their replies) all these graphical issues are produced by Mupen64 and not GlideN64.
All the graphics are produced by the gfx plugins and you always compare graphics. The out of the box explanation doesn't really explain anything to most of your audience since these can change depending on the device they are using.
FIRST!
But will you be first to render a verdict
Mupen64 Plus Ver 1.7 ?
project64-angrylion-plus-win32-v1.6-29-g8a1cc86 ?
Options-Plugin Setting
Video Setting : Slow, few glitches
Video Interface : Filtered
Interpolation : Blurry (bilinear)
Turn on all the jackdaws! 16:9 No!