Also worth adding that City Thameslink is where northbound trains switch to AC, which is another potential failure point for Thameslink services and something I've experienced several times on the route.
@@Garner84 Used to be - they moved the change to City as if for what ever reason a Northbound fails to change over it can be put in the sidings just north of the station
@@Garner84 Southbound trains still switch to DC at Farringdon, but northbound trains now go AC from City Thameslink. The line is actually dual-voltage between the two stations in both directions, so I suspect it’s a case of having a “backup”. If your train has a fault and can’t change its power at the first station, continue to the next one and try again. If it fails again, only then should you take the train out of service.
Tokyo Station has entered the chat… A city of 35m people with many, many termini and major interchanges… but one station simply called ‘Tokyo’. Still, a very pretty station it is, too!
@@fridovanorden8930 awkwardly though City Thameslink makes perfect geographical sense - it's right in the centre of The City and on the Thameslink line
@@quintuscrinis I'm not doubting Jago, but the map showed City Thameslink to the left of Holborn Viaduct. As the latter is not in the City, my assumption would be the same for this station.
Munich is currently building a second tunnel for the S-Bahn system, basically for the same reason, because all the trains have to use the existing tunnel which is at the limit of its capacity. And yes, it's expensive. Very expensive.
And it hasn't been that long ago that they finish the refurb and the closures for that were a disaster. Still better than having to change into the team from Ostbahnhof to Hauptbahnhof, as it used to be before.
And as a station it is awful too, catch a train late evening (it shuts at about 11pm weekdays) and it is soleless, drab and boring. Never arrive too early.
As someone who dealt with BR South Eastern lettters of complaint etc. in the 60s/70s the idea of re-opening the Snow Hill line regularly popped up (along with some really crackpot ideas) but the answer was always, we don't want to cause/be caused delays by trains north of the river. Presumabley someone said, never mind, just do it.
When I was a driver at Ashford (Kent) we walked down through St Paul's Thameslink to Smithfield sidings, before it was finished, to 'Learn the road'. The plan was to run slam door trains through from East Kent, the ones that ran to Holborn Viaduct. It never happened as LFB wouldn't allow them due to evacuation concerns so only sliding door trains were permitted.
Odd you mention 'slam door' trains. My assumption was they have been history in western Europe for 20-30 years. The other day I saw a Flixtrain leaving Berlin Hauptbahnhof. Rather alarmingly I saw a passenger closing the door as the train was leaving!
@@rogink what the OP is talking about is carriages with doors in each compartment. What you're talking about is typical European carriages with manually operated doors, which are still being widely used across Europe.
@@z00h Really? I don't think we've had commuter trains with separate compartments since the 70s. The usual meaning for 'slam doors' for the type that passengers open and close from and to the platform.
I didn't think it was evacuation concerns but the fact that slam door trains were illegal, if that is the right word, on underground lines. Metropolitan Line loco hauled slam door coaches and the Watford Line trains, were they T stock, were allowed as I think they pre-dated the law change making all underground trains have sliding doors, so they allowed to continue to run. As Thames Link was a new line so to speak, that loop hole wasn't allowed.
The number of strange quirks and differences is huge. One of many that spring to mind is that the current monarch can't enter The City without an invitation.
Another interesting fact about this line is that it used to over Ludgate Hill ( the road towards St Paul's ) and now dives underneath hence the very steep gradient between Blackfriars and City Thameslink. Some amazing construction completed within very tight constraints, physical and timewise.
2:33 glad to see some sort of footage of this famous holborn station, when i go by on the TL i always try to look for the clues on where the station was but its not as clear as id like and ive never seen much footage on youtube either
the view today from roughly the same location/direction as that photo: www.google.com/maps/@51.5154099,-0.1033058,3a,75y,22.36h,87.23t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1scyrTe4OdidEskQAprtjrXg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D2.765811463648845%26panoid%3DcyrTe4OdidEskQAprtjrXg%26yaw%3D22.362304433463027!7i16384!8i8192?coh=205410&entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MTAyMC4xIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
I travel into and out of City Thameslink for work 3 times a week. The longer distance trains (Brighton/Horsham Bedford/Cambridge/Peterborough) running a few minutes late you have to play guess who will get to Blackfriars first and therefore into City first - The 8 car stoppers (St Albans/Luton) or the 12 car long distance. The board can be jumping around all the time. And don't get me started on late running Peterborough trains (now see what you did!). They turf us off at Finsbury Park (having stopped all stations in the core) and then run straight to Peterborough. Tell you to get the next train which is often cancelled so it can become an hour or more wait. Another problem from Finsbury Park is that they have to swap drivers for the core so if the core driver is not there yet (their train from the core is delayed) it then delays the train at FP. Thameslink in general just cannot cope with delays anywhere on their network, it is not just at City Thameslink.
The trouble with City Thameslink is that it is operationally a terminus, but physically is a through station without any proper connection to the Underground Network. The crazy interlining of service patterns just makes it worse.
I wondered why they didnt call it "Snow Hill" since its virtually on the site of the original Snow Hill station. I'd accept Ludgate Hill because it has entrances to/from said hill. Even "The City" might not be so bad but "City Thameslink" is halfway between being a vague destination and an advertisement. The name is irritating. As is frequently the case these days, we find recycled infrastructure being pushed beyond its capacity.
Sometime ago, when the Thameslink project was called "Thameslink 2000", my company did some consultancy work on the capacity of Farringdon and London Bridge. One bit of the briefing report I remember was the proposal that the trains would be automatically operated because, with trains running as close as 90 seconds apart, human drivers would "flinch" (i.e. brake too early) and the service would be delayed as a result.
That's interesting to read as an ex-Jubilee Line driver that used to manually drive on that line (before the Jubilee became ATO) and there were multiple points where we were under 90 seconds behind the train in front with no flinching involved - we were used to following tail lights all day.
Yes, its a case where if you don't have trains running, no cancellations or delays can happen there in the first place - and a 100% on time record with 0 trains out of 0 being delayed on a typical sunday.
@Cowman9791 I was meaning that the implication is that Farringdon (on the same line with all the same trains) would have the same issue, unless the Sunday service was better when Farringdon has the chance to come out better by still being open and off-setting some of the damage that makes Ciry Thameslink the worst.
@@alanclarke4646 Trains still run on Sundays, and even stop there to change power supplies, but the station is closed, and the doors do not open. There may be less trains on Sundays, I don’t know the full Thameslink timetable.
Any engineering works on the core section usually happen at weekends, which can sometimes come as a nasty surprise to passengers who were expecting to use it!
Jago's Ludgate Hill! As long as we all use that name from now on they will have to rename it won't they? And you could re-rename it Snow Hill each year for the one day in the winter when it snows in London, and attract tourists from around the world for the occasion.
19:23 Hi Jago, I used to work very close to there and do remember when Holborn Viaduct was on the cusp of being closed down, and remember all the works that were going on, causing much chaos around Ludgate Circus.
A friend who drives Thameslink trains says they have a graffiti problem at the station because people constantly paint a 'S' on the 'Pant Down' sign :)
The lines Thameslink operates on outside the core are in fact mostly run by the same company under different names. Southern and Great Northern are both part of the same franchise as Thameslink.
....and because they don't employ enough drivers they rely on rest day working which, when it doesn't happen leads to cancellations, especially at weekends. Thus adding to the unreliability stats for, inter alia, City Thameslink.
Always a fan of Holborn Viaduct and also the old Blackfriars with its three terminus platforms. Not particularly sad to hear that the shiny new replacement for HV is a bit of a turkey.
I've been dealing with tough troubles in real life with one of my relatives being admitted to the hospital since last wednesday, but watching the latest Jago video always puts a smile on my face. :)
I do think that Thameslink should have stuck to serving the Brighton line in the south (plus the Sutton-Wimbledon loop). The problems caused for passengers by delays are exacerbated by the wretched half-hourly services which are the bugbear of south London's rail services in general: better to have fewer destinations each served more frequently. That's why the tube is so successful - if services are frequent, no one minds changing trains to get to the individual station you want.
I still do not see the reason for the Cambridge/Peterborough services being all pushed through the core (even though it benefits me). I much preferred the service into Kings Cross and just as easy to walk to St Pancras. But I think they wanted to reduce congestion and free up slots at Kings Cross for LNER etc. All that has happened is the congestion moves to the core and if the ECML is blocked it can easily back up into the core even though there are only 6 ECML routed trains through the core per hour.
Ohh, I knew that was familiar! London fur meets used to happen at the bar right next to it. I tried using it once, and was told that Thameslink only worked on weekdays.
No station could ever be worse than the train station in my hometown of Billingham in the North East of England. It's an absolute abomination, and the old station there (which was demolished decades before I was born) looked so much nicer too!
I love this station mostly because it made things SO easy for me when coming in from Gatwick. Always got to the City calm… unlike the mixed bag of emotions that accompany coming in from Heathrow
As someone who lives in the area I never use the station, opting to walk straight past and use Blackfriars which is always open. Operation at City is too limited would be better to shut it and Farringdon is often closed when it shouldn't be. Would be good if the rebuild of Blackfriars had provided better connectivity with the area; the downside being the busy road everyone has to get across.
For a long long time (on my early trips to London), I had no idea about Thameslink and didn't get what City Thameslink was doing in the city. But I have used the line loads of times since then, especially for Gatwick. I am glad it exists!
Even though the following is a blessing in disguise due to the absence of a Piccadilly (see GNP&BR 1903/1905 proposals), Fleet/Jubilee or DLR stop at nearby Ludgate Circus prior to the Elizabeth line at Farringdon, they should have looked at resitting the Central Line stop at either St Paul's or Chancery Lane to City Thameslink just south of Snow Hill (Holborn Viaduct Low Level).
My parents live on (well, near) the Sutton Loop and were vocally opposed to their trains terminating at Blackfriars. Seems they weren’t alone on that one!
I saw a Pantograph explosion at City Thameslink, it was very exciting until I realised that no trains could get through the narrow Farringdon to Blackfriars corridor until it got fixed and the affected train also moved, which as you can imagine took a very long time!
Help a poor foreigner out. Thameslink was created by Network SE which was a sector (division?) of BR. Is it still considered part of what currently passes for "BR", i.e., mainline rail as opposed to an Underground line? TfL is not involved, I gather ... but TfL is administratively over the Underground, the Overground (parts were former "mainline"), the Elizabeth Line (parts were former "mainline" outside of CrossRail), and the DLR ... But not Thameslink? London's rail transportation is wonderfully complex and you, Mr Hazzard, are a good guide, but holy cow it's hard to keep up!! 😀
It's still a Network Rail* (successor organisation to BR) station. *Network Rail is responsible for tracks and other infrastructure, but Govia Thameslink Railway is the franchisee responsible for the services on the line, and Thameslink is the brand name. Yes, that's the mess that rail privatisation created!
5:19 that's a very interesting part of london. There is a circle that goes under some of the buildings which traces the outline of the old roman gladiatorial ring.
Fun fact - although never built, St Pauls Thameslink was built with a corridor leading to the site of Ludgate Hill tube station. It is known by the station staff as the "LUL corridor"
Hello Jago, that was a very congested tale (every two minutes!). City Thameslink is a definite candidate for some ‘widened lines’ - oh if only it were possible. Best wishes from a bit of Oxfordshire now completely devoid of any lines.
Brilliant video sir, iirc ticket wise from South of the river City Thameslink counts as a London terminal, Farringdon and St Pancras have be to the named station.
The city question leaves most stumped London itself is not actually a city in the official sense of having been granted a Royal Charter but rather an amalgamation of London boroughs (sometimes called London regions) with the entire area designated as Greater London But within Greater London lies 2 official cites - the City of London and the City of Westminster, no other London borough holds city status It's often a pub quiz question - which are England's largest and smallest cities by population? To which the answers would be Birmingham for largest and the City of London for smallest
Good video. One thing to mention, the way the concourse at City Thameslink was designed, allowed for a future extension of the Jubilee Line, to provide interchange. That was if the line had been extended beyond Charing Cross. The provision could still be used, if a proposed westward extension of the DLR, beyond Bank, to Charing Cross former Jubilee Line platforms, ever gets built. And I agree, Ludgate Hill would've been a much better name. After all, up here in Fife, Dunfermline Town station was renamed Dunfermline City, so it can be done!
The very close running of trains through a central bottleneck arriving from many origins has been (almost) perfected in Paris with the RER A & B, trains typically running with only one (short) section separating trains.
I heard that someone dropped a bollock and an EPB ended up at Farringdon. Presumably didn’t take the lunars into Blackfriars and without a pantograph caused a bit of a headache!
Thames-stink problems started when Chris Grayling was transport minster. Living north of London I avoid thameslink at all costs & give my standing space to someone whom needs it more. I have more space on my Brompton for dashing around town, guaranteed seat and its a lot faster.
Instead of stopping Sutton trains going north, they took out the Sevenoaks service instead. Now to get to CT or anywhere north (including the Elizabeth Line) from Bromley etc. you have to change at Blackfriars. This may be cross platform going north but can't be going south and crossing from platform 1 to 3 or 4 is a real slog.
Do you know if Thameslink uses traditional signaling on the core section or if they have some kind of CBTC-type system in place? It obviously wouldn’t fix the underlying lack of capacity (or delays elsewhere on the network) but I have to imagine It would help to minimize any issues that arise within the core section itself. Also, I wonder why no one ever suggested referring to the “big-C City” as the “old City” once Greater London became a thing. Seems like exactly the kind of deeply unpopular historical erasure 20th-century urban planners would go for.
They use ETCS or one of those in-cab systems (you can see the board marking a block section halfway along the platform at 8:26). They also have colour lights, as you see in the vid
I have passed through using it as a short cut in the city, usually when its raining! Otherwise it is great if you miss a plane at Luton and get rerouted via Gatwick, which did happen a couple of times (ahem). Luckily I haven't been caught out by the scheduling issues you mentioned. I seem to remember a very interesting station/building plan by John Outram ('Temple of Storms' pumping station) for a station at/around(?) Ludgate or Holborn Viaduct where the trains would have been visible through the buildings' columns. It would have been great seeing trains above ground (sort of) in the city. Alas it didn't quite happen.
I would be interested in a follow-up on this video. The Elisabeth line is also a railway running through central London with a large number of trains and shares track with other rail services outside the core section. Why is then the Liz less affected by delays than Thameslink?
Because it has a much simpler service and without the dozens of flat junctions and it mostly has it's own tracks - there's only a few GWR and freight services which do, nothing does on the eastern side
@@stuartparks8094 I was under the impression that it could be affected by the services of other operators calling at Scabby Wood, but I could be wrong about that.
My suggestion as a non Londoner, to increase capacity in the Thameslink core would be to extend the northern city line to Cannon Street Station. Either create a Cannon Street lower level Station, or more optimal build a new station like Blackfrires across the entire River Thames. Looking at a Topological map, it should be possible to but a ramp as steep as from Blackfrires to City Thameslink between the existing bridge and the Cannon Street (Street). Optionally, you could build a Cannon Street lower level and do a submerged tunnel (so very shallow)to the southern banks of the Thames and than rise to the viaduct to London Bridge Station as well as to the Southeastern Main Line with another connecting viaduct to Elefant and Castle (this would definitely require demolish of existing buildings). If you feel exceptionally fancy you could add a wye in the tunnel to connect Fenchurch Street Station with both Moorgate and Cannon Street Station. A possible intermediate station could be Bank. If underground it could connect to both Bank and Cannon St, making Bank, Monument even more complicated as a Bank, Monument, Cannon Street complex. The District and Circle line platforms almost certainly would have to be rebuild below the new second core.
Now come to think of it the small "c" city of London is BIG, but the big "C" City of London is tiny..... There's something wrong there, but I can't quite see what it is.
You cannot get a purer than the driven snow commuter station than one situated in the middle of a huge metropolis that closes on Sunday. And if there's one thing that commuters know, it's where to get off. Tourists looking to visit a world-renowned monument in that part of the City are offered a perfectly serviceable destination with an all-revealing name on the Central Line just up the road.
I worked and lived between City Thameslink and Farringdon and I have NEVER got on/off a train at this station. I guess it relieved traffic from Farringdon, but this station was mostly a nuisance meaning I would always miss my change at London Bridge or Blackfriars by 1 minute. Garbage station
"Mr. Snow Hill Tunnel, you've become part of a bigger universe; you just don't know it yet." "Who the hell are you?" "Chris Green, Director of Network South East. I'm here to talk to you about the Thameslink Initiative"
I have always felt it was a out of place station but living in South London meant it was also a convenient and fairly quick way to get into that part of London
Went there recently . It's very confusing . Spent quite a long time trying to orientate myself . I try now to use overground trains instead of underground , as they are a much more pleasant environment .
As you said, when Thameslink works....it works really well.....but, more often than not it works badly....really badly. More excuses....lack of train drivers etc etc.
City Thameslink appears in many of your videos. Have you ever done one explaining why the platforms are so long? I'm sure it was related to the Channel Tunnel and getting North of London services south, and heading towards Dover[ish]. I'm sure that's only maybe 1% accurate, and hence the request for a deeper explanation. TIA
I hated and so clung to the concept as as 90's commuter, of the hope of going from Herts to S/W London. I know there is no practical link. Thank goodness for the Victoria Line.
6:00 well the Horsham train is cancelled if you see the screen that’s for starters and adding on to your Thameslink going wrong claim I remember I was returning home from Elstree and Borhamwood after seeing the Eastenders set and actors there in April 2022 on a train bound for Sutton when there was a rail wire failure at St Pancras and we were stuck in the tunnel between there and Kentish Town for about 40 mins so the train had to return to Kentish Town and terminated there instead.
Its because it had nothing to do with me.
Uh oh
It's that man again
man like Charles
*ominous music starts playing*
hi Charles
Also worth adding that City Thameslink is where northbound trains switch to AC, which is another potential failure point for Thameslink services and something I've experienced several times on the route.
Is it, I thought they change at Farringdon?
@@Garner84 Used to be - they moved the change to City as if for what ever reason a Northbound fails to change over it can be put in the sidings just north of the station
@@Garner84 There's a driver placard to raise/lower the catenary at the ends of City Thameslink platforms
@@Garner84
Southbound trains still switch to DC at Farringdon, but northbound trains now go AC from City Thameslink.
The line is actually dual-voltage between the two stations in both directions, so I suspect it’s a case of having a “backup”. If your train has a fault and can’t change its power at the first station, continue to the next one and try again. If it fails again, only then should you take the train out of service.
@Garner84 a sign going south indicated 'PANT UP'. Never spotted a 'PANT DOWN- in the opposite direction.
Used City Thameslink for the first time today. Was pleased to find a video about how bad it is in my subscriptions as soon as I got home
Did you agree?
Can’t say it was the best, but pleased to report that everything was on time
Regarding the non-indicative name: Berlin's subway has a station called 'Stadtmitte' (City center). That's about as fuzzy as 'City Thameslink'
Tokyo Station has entered the chat…
A city of 35m people with many, many termini and major interchanges… but one station simply called ‘Tokyo’. Still, a very pretty station it is, too!
@@fridovanorden8930 awkwardly though City Thameslink makes perfect geographical sense - it's right in the centre of The City and on the Thameslink line
@@quintuscrinis I'm not doubting Jago, but the map showed City Thameslink to the left of Holborn Viaduct. As the latter is not in the City, my assumption would be the same for this station.
@rogink or maybe it isn't quite in The City. It is definitely the closest though and the one used by "City" workers hence being closed in Sunday.
Wien Mitte is even worse, it is far away from city at all, outside Ring.
Munich is currently building a second tunnel for the S-Bahn system, basically for the same reason, because all the trains have to use the existing tunnel which is at the limit of its capacity. And yes, it's expensive. Very expensive.
And it hasn't been that long ago that they finish the refurb and the closures for that were a disaster. Still better than having to change into the team from Ostbahnhof to Hauptbahnhof, as it used to be before.
*tram
Still can't be as bad as the unmissed King's Cross Thameslink, a horrid cramped, sometimes dangerously overcrowded hole
It's certainly missed by passengers who used to change onto the Tube there! 🤣
And as a station it is awful too, catch a train late evening (it shuts at about 11pm weekdays) and it is soleless, drab and boring. Never arrive too early.
Agreed. It always closes just as it's about to be fc**** useful
As someone who dealt with BR South Eastern lettters of complaint etc. in the 60s/70s the idea of re-opening the Snow Hill line regularly popped up (along with some really crackpot ideas) but the answer was always, we don't want to cause/be caused delays by trains north of the river. Presumabley someone said, never mind, just do it.
He was called Ken Livingstone and/or his transport guru Dave Wetzel.
When I was a driver at Ashford (Kent) we walked down through St Paul's Thameslink to Smithfield sidings, before it was finished, to 'Learn the road'. The plan was to run slam door trains through from East Kent, the ones that ran to Holborn Viaduct. It never happened as LFB wouldn't allow them due to evacuation concerns so only sliding door trains were permitted.
Odd you mention 'slam door' trains. My assumption was they have been history in western Europe for 20-30 years. The other day I saw a Flixtrain leaving Berlin Hauptbahnhof. Rather alarmingly I saw a passenger closing the door as the train was leaving!
@@rogink what the OP is talking about is carriages with doors in each compartment. What you're talking about is typical European carriages with manually operated doors, which are still being widely used across Europe.
@@z00h Really? I don't think we've had commuter trains with separate compartments since the 70s. The usual meaning for 'slam doors' for the type that passengers open and close from and to the platform.
I didn't think it was evacuation concerns but the fact that slam door trains were illegal, if that is the right word, on underground lines. Metropolitan Line loco hauled slam door coaches and the Watford Line trains, were they T stock, were allowed as I think they pre-dated the law change making all underground trains have sliding doors, so they allowed to continue to run. As Thames Link was a new line so to speak, that loop hole wasn't allowed.
My model railway I haven't built yet will be modelled on the Thameslink core, because I'm figuring the scenery will be easier.
Brilliant video thanks!
Yes please to a video about the big C and little c! Thanks!
Somebody recently called me a big C. I am glad to find out he meant the financial centre.
@@tomq6491 As long as he didn't call you a merchant banker...
@@lordmuntague 😄
The number of strange quirks and differences is huge. One of many that spring to mind is that the current monarch can't enter The City without an invitation.
There is a great video by CGP Grey on the topic
3:38 "Obliterated 1990" is wild 💀
Another interesting fact about this line is that it used to over Ludgate Hill ( the road towards St Paul's ) and now dives underneath hence the very steep gradient between Blackfriars and City Thameslink. Some amazing construction completed within very tight constraints, physical and timewise.
7:27 On the contrary, not being able to go to Luton is a good thing. Though for other stations on the line I accept your point.
Oh dear, another one on the bandwagon knocking Luton! Far worse places are available.
2:33 glad to see some sort of footage of this famous holborn station, when i go by on the TL i always try to look for the clues on where the station was but its not as clear as id like and ive never seen much footage on youtube either
the view today from roughly the same location/direction as that photo: www.google.com/maps/@51.5154099,-0.1033058,3a,75y,22.36h,87.23t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1scyrTe4OdidEskQAprtjrXg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D2.765811463648845%26panoid%3DcyrTe4OdidEskQAprtjrXg%26yaw%3D22.362304433463027!7i16384!8i8192?coh=205410&entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MTAyMC4xIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
The next station Blackfriars is the best station in London for me awesome views from the platforms over the Thames.
*previous station
@@stevegreen8262that very much depends where you're coming from. 😂
When you have to change across to another platform it is a nightmare though.
I travel into and out of City Thameslink for work 3 times a week. The longer distance trains (Brighton/Horsham Bedford/Cambridge/Peterborough) running a few minutes late you have to play guess who will get to Blackfriars first and therefore into City first - The 8 car stoppers (St Albans/Luton) or the 12 car long distance. The board can be jumping around all the time.
And don't get me started on late running Peterborough trains (now see what you did!). They turf us off at Finsbury Park (having stopped all stations in the core) and then run straight to Peterborough. Tell you to get the next train which is often cancelled so it can become an hour or more wait.
Another problem from Finsbury Park is that they have to swap drivers for the core so if the core driver is not there yet (their train from the core is delayed) it then delays the train at FP.
Thameslink in general just cannot cope with delays anywhere on their network, it is not just at City Thameslink.
I'm very happy that I've only ever had to catch Cambridge and Peterborough trains as far as Finsbury Park!
The trouble with City Thameslink is that it is operationally a terminus, but physically is a through station without any proper connection to the Underground Network. The crazy interlining of service patterns just makes it worse.
If I'm not mistaken, it's adjacent to the Central line running tunnels.
Not rambling really, covering a lot of ground quickly, yes. Excellent as ever, and loving the topless shot of City Thameslink...
...as it were.
sat at City Thameslink on the way home from work watching this because my train is delayed
I wondered why they didnt call it "Snow Hill" since its virtually on the site of the original Snow Hill station. I'd accept Ludgate Hill because it has entrances to/from said hill. Even "The City" might not be so bad but "City Thameslink" is halfway between being a vague destination and an advertisement. The name is irritating. As is frequently the case these days, we find recycled infrastructure being pushed beyond its capacity.
Sometime ago, when the Thameslink project was called "Thameslink 2000", my company did some consultancy work on the capacity of Farringdon and London Bridge. One bit of the briefing report I remember was the proposal that the trains would be automatically operated because, with trains running as close as 90 seconds apart, human drivers would "flinch" (i.e. brake too early) and the service would be delayed as a result.
That's interesting to read as an ex-Jubilee Line driver that used to manually drive on that line (before the Jubilee became ATO) and there were multiple points where we were under 90 seconds behind the train in front with no flinching involved - we were used to following tail lights all day.
Pretty sure they are running under ETCS / ATO from Kentish Town at least to Blackfriars and maybe beyond to Elephant & Castle.
Does this mean Sundays have a much better reliability?
Yes, its a case where if you don't have trains running, no cancellations or delays can happen there in the first place - and a 100% on time record with 0 trains out of 0 being delayed on a typical sunday.
@@Cowman9791so an atypical Sunday train COULD be delayed, even though there are NO trains? 😂😂
@Cowman9791 I was meaning that the implication is that Farringdon (on the same line with all the same trains) would have the same issue, unless the Sunday service was better when Farringdon has the chance to come out better by still being open and off-setting some of the damage that makes Ciry Thameslink the worst.
@@alanclarke4646
Trains still run on Sundays, and even stop there to change power supplies, but the station is closed, and the doors do not open. There may be less trains on Sundays, I don’t know the full Thameslink timetable.
Any engineering works on the core section usually happen at weekends, which can sometimes come as a nasty surprise to passengers who were expecting to use it!
Jago's Ludgate Hill! As long as we all use that name from now on they will have to rename it won't they? And you could re-rename it Snow Hill each year for the one day in the winter when it snows in London, and attract tourists from around the world for the occasion.
19:23 Hi Jago, I used to work very close to there and do remember when Holborn Viaduct was on the cusp of being closed down, and remember all the works that were going on, causing much chaos around Ludgate Circus.
A friend who drives Thameslink trains says they have a graffiti problem at the station because people constantly paint a 'S' on the 'Pant Down' sign :)
The lines Thameslink operates on outside the core are in fact mostly run by the same company under different names. Southern and Great Northern are both part of the same franchise as Thameslink.
....and because they don't employ enough drivers they rely on rest day working which, when it doesn't happen leads to cancellations, especially at weekends. Thus adding to the unreliability stats for, inter alia, City Thameslink.
Always a fan of Holborn Viaduct and also the old Blackfriars with its three terminus platforms. Not particularly sad to hear that the shiny new replacement for HV is a bit of a turkey.
I've been dealing with tough troubles in real life with one of my relatives being admitted to the hospital since last wednesday, but watching the latest Jago video always puts a smile on my face. :)
I hope they will be ok :(
I never thought this was a real actual station, I just figured it was some administrative name slapped onto split-fare tickets
One used, never forgotten!
I do think that Thameslink should have stuck to serving the Brighton line in the south (plus the Sutton-Wimbledon loop). The problems caused for passengers by delays are exacerbated by the wretched half-hourly services which are the bugbear of south London's rail services in general: better to have fewer destinations each served more frequently. That's why the tube is so successful - if services are frequent, no one minds changing trains to get to the individual station you want.
I still do not see the reason for the Cambridge/Peterborough services being all pushed through the core (even though it benefits me). I much preferred the service into Kings Cross and just as easy to walk to St Pancras. But I think they wanted to reduce congestion and free up slots at Kings Cross for LNER etc. All that has happened is the congestion moves to the core and if the ECML is blocked it can easily back up into the core even though there are only 6 ECML routed trains through the core per hour.
Ohh, I knew that was familiar! London fur meets used to happen at the bar right next to it.
I tried using it once, and was told that Thameslink only worked on weekdays.
I think Thameslink working on weekdays is somewhat optimistic.
Much more reliable on Sundays.
No station could ever be worse than the train station in my hometown of Billingham in the North East of England. It's an absolute abomination, and the old station there (which was demolished decades before I was born) looked so much nicer too!
Jago and Geoff posting at the same time… Something is up
What…? Definately watching that next
A glitch in the railway matrix
A good time for all is what’s up!
I love this station mostly because it made things SO easy for me when coming in from Gatwick. Always got to the City calm… unlike the mixed bag of emotions that accompany coming in from Heathrow
The shabbiest London terminus station I've ever used would be Fenchurch Street
As someone who lives in the area I never use the station, opting to walk straight past and use Blackfriars which is always open. Operation at City is too limited would be better to shut it and Farringdon is often closed when it shouldn't be. Would be good if the rebuild of Blackfriars had provided better connectivity with the area; the downside being the busy road everyone has to get across.
For a long long time (on my early trips to London), I had no idea about Thameslink and didn't get what City Thameslink was doing in the city. But I have used the line loads of times since then, especially for Gatwick. I am glad it exists!
I've spent many an unhappy trip through CT
Even though the following is a blessing in disguise due to the absence of a Piccadilly (see GNP&BR 1903/1905 proposals), Fleet/Jubilee or DLR stop at nearby Ludgate Circus prior to the Elizabeth line at Farringdon, they should have looked at resitting the Central Line stop at either St Paul's or Chancery Lane to City Thameslink just south of Snow Hill (Holborn Viaduct Low Level).
My parents live on (well, near) the Sutton Loop and were vocally opposed to their trains terminating at Blackfriars. Seems they weren’t alone on that one!
As a travelcard holder, I occasionally used City Thameslink a handy pedestrian cut-through between Holborn and Ludgate Hill.
Commuted into City Thameslink for a year. Hated it. Just train after train after train, but never the one you want.
I saw a Pantograph explosion at City Thameslink, it was very exciting until I realised that no trains could get through the narrow Farringdon to Blackfriars corridor until it got fixed and the affected train also moved, which as you can imagine took a very long time!
Thanks. As a mere provincial I enjoy these films even though they make me dizzy through lack of understanding the geography!
Help a poor foreigner out. Thameslink was created by Network SE which was a sector (division?) of BR. Is it still considered part of what currently passes for "BR", i.e., mainline rail as opposed to an Underground line?
TfL is not involved, I gather ... but TfL is administratively over the Underground, the Overground (parts were former "mainline"), the Elizabeth Line (parts were former "mainline" outside of CrossRail), and the DLR ... But not Thameslink?
London's rail transportation is wonderfully complex and you, Mr Hazzard, are a good guide, but holy cow it's hard to keep up!! 😀
It's still a Network Rail* (successor organisation to BR) station.
*Network Rail is responsible for tracks and other infrastructure, but Govia Thameslink Railway is the franchisee responsible for the services on the line, and Thameslink is the brand name. Yes, that's the mess that rail privatisation created!
It's time to re-widen the City Widened lines.
5:19 that's a very interesting part of london. There is a circle that goes under some of the buildings which traces the outline of the old roman gladiatorial ring.
City Thameslink must be the vaguest station name in Britain.
It could even be in Reading couldn't it?
Bat and Ball takes some beating
I think University is worse. Thameslink at least gives away what part of the country it is in.
Elephant and Castle is the worst imo on that line. So run down compared to the area was especially ugly when the insidious Heygate estate existed.
It's the walk from either of the Tube stations which makes it awful for interchange, in my experience.
Fun fact - although never built, St Pauls Thameslink was built with a corridor leading to the site of Ludgate Hill tube station. It is known by the station staff as the "LUL corridor"
Hello Jago, that was a very congested tale (every two minutes!). City Thameslink is a definite candidate for some ‘widened lines’ - oh if only it were possible.
Best wishes from a bit of Oxfordshire now completely devoid of any lines.
Brilliant video sir, iirc ticket wise from South of the river City Thameslink counts as a London terminal, Farringdon and St Pancras have be to the named station.
City Thameslink has really long platforms that can easily accommodate two trains.
Two 8 car trains maybe, not two 12 car trains, which most of them are.
Being closed on a Sunday is actually annoying
Having relatives in both Bedford and Brighton, I've been through there many times. But I don't think I've ever actually used that station.
The city question leaves most stumped
London itself is not actually a city in the official sense of having been granted a Royal Charter but rather an amalgamation of London boroughs (sometimes called London regions) with the entire area designated as Greater London
But within Greater London lies 2 official cites - the City of London and the City of Westminster, no other London borough holds city status
It's often a pub quiz question - which are England's largest and smallest cities by population? To which the answers would be Birmingham for largest and the City of London for smallest
Good video. One thing to mention, the way the concourse at City Thameslink was designed, allowed for a future extension of the Jubilee Line, to provide interchange. That was if the line had been extended beyond Charing Cross. The provision could still be used, if a proposed westward extension of the DLR, beyond Bank, to Charing Cross former Jubilee Line platforms, ever gets built. And I agree, Ludgate Hill would've been a much better name. After all, up here in Fife, Dunfermline Town station was renamed Dunfermline City, so it can be done!
The very close running of trains through a central bottleneck arriving from many origins has been (almost) perfected in Paris with the RER A & B, trains typically running with only one (short) section separating trains.
I heard that someone dropped a bollock and an EPB ended up at Farringdon. Presumably didn’t take the lunars into Blackfriars and without a pantograph caused a bit of a headache!
Thames-stink problems started when Chris Grayling was transport minster.
Living north of London I avoid thameslink at all costs & give my standing space to someone whom needs it more.
I have more space on my Brompton for dashing around town, guaranteed seat and its a lot faster.
So City Thameslink is that rarest of things, a through terminus. Interesting.
Instead of stopping Sutton trains going north, they took out the Sevenoaks service instead. Now to get to CT or anywhere north (including the Elizabeth Line) from Bromley etc. you have to change at Blackfriars. This may be cross platform going north but can't be going south and crossing from platform 1 to 3 or 4 is a real slog.
Mathematically speaking, the obvious solution is to compress the trains, either in width or in length.
Do you know if Thameslink uses traditional signaling on the core section or if they have some kind of CBTC-type system in place? It obviously wouldn’t fix the underlying lack of capacity (or delays elsewhere on the network) but I have to imagine It would help to minimize any issues that arise within the core section itself.
Also, I wonder why no one ever suggested referring to the “big-C City” as the “old City” once Greater London became a thing. Seems like exactly the kind of deeply unpopular historical erasure 20th-century urban planners would go for.
They use ETCS or one of those in-cab systems (you can see the board marking a block section halfway along the platform at 8:26). They also have colour lights, as you see in the vid
Kentish Town to Elephant & Castle is ETCS / ATO i.e. automatic to maximise effective driving.
I'd love to see you do a video on the GWR Greenford branch line
I have! Two, in fact.
I have passed through using it as a short cut in the city, usually when its raining! Otherwise it is great if you miss a plane at Luton and get rerouted via Gatwick, which did happen a couple of times (ahem). Luckily I haven't been caught out by the scheduling issues you mentioned. I seem to remember a very interesting station/building plan by John Outram ('Temple of Storms' pumping station) for a station at/around(?) Ludgate or Holborn Viaduct where the trains would have been visible through the buildings' columns. It would have been great seeing trains above ground (sort of) in the city. Alas it didn't quite happen.
Company I worked for had offices above Holborn Viaduct. Horrible, cramped and dated!
I would be interested in a follow-up on this video. The Elisabeth line is also a railway running through central London with a large number of trains and shares track with other rail services outside the core section. Why is then the Liz less affected by delays than Thameslink?
Because it wasn't thrown together on the cheap, and more money was spent on the signalling?
Because it has a much simpler service and without the dozens of flat junctions and it mostly has it's own tracks - there's only a few GWR and freight services which do, nothing does on the eastern side
@@stuartparks8094 I was under the impression that it could be affected by the services of other operators calling at Scabby Wood, but I could be wrong about that.
The disparity between the Thameslink routes north and south of the river is silly. No wonder there are delays.
My suggestion as a non Londoner, to increase capacity in the Thameslink core would be to extend the northern city line to Cannon Street Station. Either create a Cannon Street lower level Station, or more optimal build a new station like Blackfrires across the entire River Thames. Looking at a Topological map, it should be possible to but a ramp as steep as from Blackfrires to City Thameslink between the existing bridge and the Cannon Street (Street). Optionally, you could build a Cannon Street lower level and do a submerged tunnel (so very shallow)to the southern banks of the Thames and than rise to the viaduct to London Bridge Station as well as to the Southeastern Main Line with another connecting viaduct to Elefant and Castle (this would definitely require demolish of existing buildings).
If you feel exceptionally fancy you could add a wye in the tunnel to connect Fenchurch Street Station with both Moorgate and Cannon Street Station.
A possible intermediate station could be Bank. If underground it could connect to both Bank and Cannon St, making Bank, Monument even more complicated as a Bank, Monument, Cannon Street complex.
The District and Circle line platforms almost certainly would have to be rebuild below the new second core.
8:20 “Dry falling fire main manual air release valve located behind”. The sign makes as much sense as City Thameslink station name
Interesting video, thanks.
Now come to think of it the small "c" city of London is BIG, but the big "C" City of London is tiny.....
There's something wrong there, but I can't quite see what it is.
You cannot get a purer than the driven snow commuter station than one situated in the middle of a huge metropolis that closes on Sunday. And if there's one thing that commuters know, it's where to get off. Tourists looking to visit a world-renowned monument in that part of the City are offered a perfectly serviceable destination with an all-revealing name on the Central Line just up the road.
This is the content I live for
Fleet Street would be a better name and more iconic
I worked and lived between City Thameslink and Farringdon and I have NEVER got on/off a train at this station.
I guess it relieved traffic from Farringdon, but this station was mostly a nuisance meaning I would always miss my change at London Bridge or Blackfriars by 1 minute.
Garbage station
....but JH is the best on TH-cam....
great again as ever
"Mr. Snow Hill Tunnel, you've become part of a bigger universe; you just don't know it yet."
"Who the hell are you?"
"Chris Green, Director of Network South East. I'm here to talk to you about the Thameslink Initiative"
As someone who has been to City Thaemslink I hate it
I have always felt it was a out of place station but living in South London meant it was also a convenient and fairly quick way to get into that part of London
jago can you do a video on the abandoned chiltern line from old oak common to west ruislip that runs along the central line
Went there recently . It's very confusing . Spent quite a long time trying to orientate myself . I try now to use overground trains instead of underground , as they are a much more pleasant environment .
I like the name “Roman City Thameslink”, to emphasise the age and central location of the area.
As you said, when Thameslink works....it works really well.....but, more often than not it works badly....really badly. More excuses....lack of train drivers etc etc.
City Thameslink appears in many of your videos. Have you ever done one explaining why the platforms are so long? I'm sure it was related to the Channel Tunnel and getting North of London services south, and heading towards Dover[ish]. I'm sure that's only maybe 1% accurate, and hence the request for a deeper explanation. TIA
I originate from ‘Little C,’ Barking, to be exact 😂
So basically it's like one great big egg timer.
The Romans built a financial district? How prescient of them...
They invented the word and the concept of administration.
The London Stone opposite Cannon Street station allegedly marks the crossing point of two pre-Roman tracks which were used as trade routes.
I agree with calling it "Ludgate Hill".
I hated and so clung to the concept as as 90's commuter, of the hope of going from Herts to S/W London. I know there is no practical link. Thank goodness for the Victoria Line.
So it's not in its mission statement, then?? I'm shocked.
Signed,
Still Scarred Years Later, ex-commuter
The title is so subtle that I think most people won’t get it 🤭
Very good Jago - Thanks for sharing 🙂🚂🚂🚂
6:00 well the Horsham train is cancelled if you see the screen that’s for starters and adding on to your Thameslink going wrong claim I remember I was returning home from Elstree and Borhamwood after seeing the Eastenders set and actors there in April 2022 on a train bound for Sutton when there was a rail wire failure at St Pancras and we were stuck in the tunnel between there and Kentish Town for about 40 mins so the train had to return to Kentish Town and terminated there instead.
Lots of name crossovers with Birmingham in this one. You haven't captured that link
Where?
perhaps just dig a couple of extra tunnels so non stop trains didn't have to go through the station or 2 more platforms so they can double capacity.
Maybe the financiers and politicians don't want to be reminded of what was originally on Ludgate Hill.
As the kids probably don't say anymore, "It is what it is!" 😁