Hey Corinne if you're reading this it's Edgar from the speed dating night! For everyone else, yes Jago Hazzard came up as a point of conversation during a 4 minute speed date!
As someone who uses the Tube only occasionally, the names are way more friendly and memorable than the number / letter systems other cities have. Knowing you need to get the Elizabeth Line and then the Northern Line is way easier to remember than getting Line 17B and then Line 5Z. Regular commuters will get used to it either way, but the London system works great with a lot of visitors.
It depends on the system, how many lines there are, how well the transit map is made, and how the stations are laid out. As long as you can look at the map and see how to get from where you are to where you want to go, it doesn't really matter what the lines are called, as long as the trains are easily identifiable when you're on the station, so you're able to get on the right train. Whether that means the lines have letters, numbers, or names, is completely irrelevant, and it is perfectly possible to use a mix of all three at the same time, which many cities (other than London) do
I'm with @thesteelrodent, it depends on what you're used to. I'm used to numbers, combined with a colour (it took some getting used to the new colour of bus 48, for instance), so that's what I use. Even our railway lines have numbers, where some have names, they aren't used very much, the numbers are. I can tell you exactly over which lines you travel going from say Brussels to say Dinant (L0, L161, L154) or to Kortrijk (L50A, L75 or the slower L89). Names are easier to tell a story, a well-known technique to remember things, but it works with numbers, too.
Numbers or letters have the advantage of being sortable, by construction time (line 1 would be older than line 3) or they might give a hint about location. You would expect to find lines 17 and 18 to be close to each other, or 41 and 42 to be a variation of 4 etc. These do not work with names.
Interestingly, the air moving the bag is coming from a direction about 180 degrees from the direction of travel of the train. The air moved by the train must be reflecting off something.
Tokyo's metropolitan railways have names too. There's just something nice about being able to say "Yamanote line" or "Marunouchi line" instead of "Line 14" or "Line C".
The Tokyo Subway lines do actually have line numbers, but they're almost never used, with the names and letter abbreviations of those names being far more common.
Those railways use numbers for the stations, not the lines. With a network as big as theirs, it's not a bad idea. If you know you have to get to the staton "JY10", you are already on the line where station codes begin with "JY", and the numbers get closer to 10 as you travel, you know you're going the correct way.
They use numbers for stations, and I think it's a good idea that more systems should do, but the lines do actually have numbers. For example, the Marunouchi Line is officially Line 4, and the Shinjuku Line is Line 10. This is just a Tokyo Subway thing though, and the numbers aren't used outside of planning.
Using names for the lines is far better than using letters or numbers. It's distinctive and, importantly, much more intelligible, especially in noisy environments like, oh, a tube station (there's a reason military radio communications use "alpha", "bravo", "foxtrot", "tango", etc.) Here's what Dave Barry had to say about the New York subway system: "It's very easy for the 'out- of-towner' to use, thanks to the logical, easy-to-understand system of naming trains after famous letters and numbers. For directions, all you have to do is peer up through the steaming gloom at the informative signs, which look like this: A 5 N 7 8 C 6 AA MID-DOWNTOWN 7 3/8 EXPRESS LOCAL ONLY LL 67* DDD 4* 1 K * AAAA 9 ONLY EXCEPT CERTAIN DAYS BB ** 3 MIDWAY THROUGH TOWN 1 7 D WALK REAL FAST AAAAAAAAA 56" I rest my case.
The New York Subway is notorious for getting lost on. Its lines are too jumbled up, and illogical; plus although the signage is decent (but nowhere near as good as the LU), many of its stations look rough and uncared for. It's a network that's chronically starved of investment. Some stations have barely changed since the early 90's. In this respect it's light years behind the LU, and Paris Metro. That said, although many of its station platforms leave alot to be desired, it still has some gorgeous old Edwardian entrance canopies on street level. As with the Paris Metro, nearly all of its stations lie completely under street level. It doesn't have surface level buildings with 'walk-in' street entrances like the LU - but steps taking you underground, like Paris has.
Here in Chicago, our rapid transit system currently uses colors as names, i.e. "Red Line", "Green Line", etc. These lines used to have names, based on the routes destination, so there was a Ravenswood Line, a Jackson Park, an Englewood Line, and so on. We also had a Stockyards Line and a suburban express line called the Skokie Swift. Those old names have been gone for decades, but I still think of the system with those names. There's something to be said for a touch of history.
I like the idea of Stockyards Line. I have a mental image of lines and lines of petty criminals with their hands and faces poking through holes in heavy wooden blocks while the law-abiding populace unleashes its inner bloodlust by throwing rotten fruit and veg at them. It isn't that sort of stock yard, is it? Sigh.
There is something to be said for that system, particularly for visitors not familiar with the lines, as they can identify them on a map at a glance. I wonder how many visitors to London think of lines by the colours on the map rather than their names.
Not sure that would work in London. Last I heard, the Green Line (a semi-express bus service) was still going there, though with far fewer routes than in its sixties heyday.
I've travelled on the London Underground many times in my life and I quite like the present Tube Line names, they give the lines a sense of personality, and are also memorable sometimes for the colour codes they use, like Bakerloo = brown, and so on.
I like the names too, but after watching a French tourist try to pronounce the word 'Piccadilly' I do wonder if letters/numbers in addition to the traditional names could help.
"after watching a French tourist try to pronounce the word 'Piccadilly' I do wonder if letters/numbers in addition to the traditional names could help." No, letters/numbers wouldn't help. Tourists need to learn to pronounce the names properly. Piccadilly is not difficult at all to read/pronounce. Its easy. it sounds how it's spelt. Try pronouncing some of the welsh place names. Now that is difficult.
@@simonwinter8839 Leicester, Gloucester, Worcester (but not Cirencester) are shibboleths. They allow us to identify an outsider and treat them appropriately.
One thing one doesn't appreciate until it's missed is the way signposting for the lines tells whether a platform is for eastbound, westbound, etc., trains. I lived in Paris for a while, and found it quite annoying having to know where a train might end up, even though I was intending to get off long before the train reached its ultimate destination.
I'm sure changing the names would have a seriously detrimental effect on the rules of Mornington Crescent, particularly the 1968 James-Palmer addendum to rule 147 subsection g (although I'm prepared to be corrected on this).
I'll give you an 'A' for this 1. Personally, I find the Underground much more colourful and dare I say, friendly with line names than say T1, T2, T3, W87 etc and so on. I dont like that sense that technology ruling you rather than the other way around. Arriving at Atlanta airport and having to swap terminals I took their underground shuttle train. The voice that said "Keep clear of the doors. Doors are closing" was exactly the same as the "Cylons" from the first series of Battlestar galactica. I got a laugh when I mimicked it and said "By your command, Imperious leader"
Considering it was the first system, how it's named is the correct way. Those pesky foreigners just want to be different, like any child wants to be different from its parents. 😂
I've never considered whether it might be foreign to use letters, I'm just happy with the way it is with names. (I appreciate your comment is tongue in cheek).
Well, quite. If we give up naming lines in an arbitrary fashion, we might as well give up the LBW rule, Radio 4 on longwave, the shipping forecast, etc
Well, we in NYC have numbers AND letters, and we’ve done alright. Though it’s mostly because they were formerly three _networks_ built by _two companies and the city itself…_
I agree that renaming Tube lines would only create confusion. And why should we use just letters or numbers just because everybody else does? They should give their lines names to bring them into line with the original! I'm all for a couple of videos on how the current names came to be. I'm slightly concerned that the UERL was mentioned, but there was no word or picture of this channel's favourite villain.
We do use letters for labelling the London Underground lines: just not _single_ letters, eg we use the 6 letters: A, C, I, R, T, V (one duplicated) to name the light blue line (V-I-C-T-O-R-I-A), ...
As you said, because the lines always have had names, they always will because changing them would be weird and people would still use the old names anyway (like calling the elizabeth line crossrail, or the St. Pancras to Channel Tunnel High Speed 1). And since all the existing lines have names, new ones will have names through precident. Also I think a name adds a character to it, or at least the general attributes of the line are attached to the name.
I'm not so sure.I think people will call the Elizabeth line the Elizabeth line.I haven't heard anyone calling the Jubilee line the Fleet line recently.
Calling Crossrail "the Elizabeth line" was completely unneccessary and not in keeping with the times, and before she died it really didn't make any sense.
"If it would be of interest...". You make it Jago, we'll watch it.
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In Paris, companies had their own stations from which trains to the suburbs. The SNCF took over all these companies in the 1930s and rebranded these lines with simple letters. With this system, they were able to differentiate metro lines (numbers), suburb lines (letters), and tram lines (T+number). The system will differ for London as they don't have such drastic distinctions in the multiple systems.
When I visit Paris I get super confused though, seems to be a lack of signage assuming perhaps that folk should just instinctively know which escalator to use.
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@@BlueTangWebSystems maybe you were in stations being refurbished? Because, normally, everything is clearly labelled
The LA Metro lines used to be named after colours, with some relevance. For some unknown reason they have just re-named all the lines with letters. Now I have no idea which one is which.
In the US, other than New York City, which uses letters, rail transit systems use colors: red, green, blue, yellow/gold, brown, orange, pink, purple ... to denote each line
Please, can we have the long and rambling version of this video - there is just so much history (and hysteria) to the names of London's underground (but often above ground) railways.
For a New Yorker,coming into Penn Station,you had a choice of two subway lines,the 7th,and the 8th,respectively! Each on one side of the Station! One was the IRT[7th Avenue],and the other was the IND[8TH AVENUE],taking either of them,would get you,uptown or downtown,rather rapidly! If the traveler came into Grand Central,there was the IRT Lexington Avenue,and the shuttle,connecting 42nd Street crosstown! Again,you could connect uptown and downtown! In Grand Central,ask at the information booth,under the clock!! That is what most people found to get the subways in New York,and probably still do!! Thank you 😇 😊! Thank you 😇 😊!
Although a few people know the IRT/BMT/IND names they only appear today in some ceramic tile signs on the walls of a few stations. Individual lines have a number (IND lines) or letter. The background color on the letter/number symbols matches the route color on the map, but unlike in DC or elsewhere the lines are not referred to by color. The D isn't the Orange Line.
@emjayay As an addendum, that's mostly because in NYC, multiple routes can share a color (the A & C; the B & D; and the 1, 2, 3) while in other cities like DC and Boston, each line has its own color which it doesn't have to share.
Here in Copenhagen, our commuter network (the S-trains) consist of 10 or so lines that were joined up between 1888 and 1953. Some of them used to go much further than they do today, because they made a separation between trains serving Copenhagen and trains serving the surrounding countryside when the commuter network was electrified between 1926 and 1934. Each of these lines all have names to describe which direction they go - West line, Bay line, Coast line, and so on - but the trains that go on the lines, the actual routes, are denoted by letters, and each letter has had an assigned colour since the late 1960s when the second generation trains went into service. Since we have multiple routes that share tracks, doing it this way makes it easier to distinguish between the lines and the routes, and incidentially it's a lot easier for people who are dyslexic to only have to recognize one letter or colour, and people who are colourblind are happy to have the letters. The line names are still used in some context, but in daily speech, most people don't know the lines actually have names and typically refer to them by the terminus at the end of the line, but using the line names also don't make much sense since it doesn't tell you which train you need to go in that direction
Jago, a couple of thoughts, actually all I am capable of at one sitting these days. First like London the initial lines of the New York City Subway (remember we call the system that not the passage under the roads as in the UK) was created by private entities much like in London, while there were only two dominant players, the Interborough Rapid Transit, the first company back in 1904 starting in 1918 a second player came on the seen the Brooklyn Rapid Transit later after a bankruptcy the Brooklyn and Manhattan Transit Company, but both of these companies actually absorbed lines from other companies as well and then the city itself got into the business before all the lines were ultimately acquired and merged into the NYCTA in June 1940. The two original players bought up lines they merged into there systems, for example two of the lines one in Brooklyn, I forget which was originally part of the Long Island Railroad, and acquired by the BRT that shared part of the route to Brighton Beach. Subsequently the NYCTA would buy the Rockaway line of the Long Island Railroad in the 1950s to create the modern IND run to that part of the city. New Yorkers for many years have continued to refer to the long gone company names I still think of the Lexington Avenue Line and the 7th Avenue Line as the IRT. Today the transit Authority prefers people to refer to them as the A Division. While our Maps don't use the names, in fact most New Yorkers when speaking to each other about how to get somewhere on the system, particularly in Manhattan but elsewhere are much more like to tell you to use the 8th Avenue, or Broadway Line or the Lex, short for the Lexington Avenue Line. Even the newest part of the system the 2nd Avenue Subway ihas a name. In NYC where there is much interlining - trains to different areas sharing track for part of a route the term "line" usually is referring to the tracks in a specific part of the city, and the letters routes that use the line. Some lines are almost exclusively known by there name to most folks like the Sea Beach, a train originating on the Broadway line in Manahattan in my day, it may still, and going to Coney Island. So London's system is not really that unique in this regard. Mind you I love both systems and have spent many years riding both of them.
Well, the original aim of the Great Western was to link London and Bristol, not so much for Bristol per se but as a connection with the transatlantic steamship service (whose first ship was the Great Western). That was the idea of West they were aiming for
London has so many lines that using colors, as many American systems do, would be a non-starter because the names would have to start distinguishing subtle hue and shade differences. I think this is already a problem in Delhi, which chose to use colors for its gigantic system and now has a Pink Line, a Magenta Line and a Violet Line. Numbers or letters (with an identifying direction) as in NYC or Paris would work, but I do like the added flavor of having line names.
In Montreal we habitually refer to the various lines by colours. This is neither more nor less arbitrary than numbers (which they also have) or names (which I don't think they do), but has one great advantage and three clear disadvantages: it makes reading the (admittedly very simple) map extremely fast, it causes issues depending on which exact kind of colourblindness you have, it limits future expansion to the number of namable colours (which, curiously, apparently varies by profession-I'm not quite sure what this means for transport engineering-do we get express routes for interior decorators only?), and _you can't get to Penge even on purpose._ I have to say that I like letters and numbers when referring to _routes._ It's nice to be able to say that to get to the house you need a 3B, easier than saying “the branch of the Blurthold Line that turns right at Higher Spork.” Even endpoints won't do that job, depending on the specific kinds of weirdness your city holds. Also, where do you get the idea that there is any limit to the rambling that would put us off? I strongly suspect that we (other than Edgar) are mostly here for the rambling.
Colour-coding is not necessarily limited by the number of nameable colours but by how distinctive the colours are. Anyone -- even most colour-blind people -- can differentiate between bright red and bright blue, but it is extremely difficult (especially if you don't see them side by side) to tell whether you are on the Oxblood, Crimson or Burgundy line.
@@jaakkomantyjarvi7515 The reason I say nameable ones is just that the main reason we do this is so that you can give directions to someone else. Thus we actually need names that two people can share without prior context. Unless the printed map shows _a name for each colour_ I think we run out of easily agreed colour names long before we run out of discriminable colours. Indeed, if all we need is visual distinctness, there is a vast (order billions) vocabulary of line widths, outlining, dashes, embedded symbols and so available-but “meet me where the width five teal centre yellow and crimson long dash outline meets the dot-dot-dash width three outline width six peach and duck egg” is not going to work.
In Boston MA, the MBTA has a rather mixed system: the Bus routes are just numbered (no issue there) the Subway lines are known as the Blue (BL), Green (GL), Orange (OL) and Red (RL) Lines, with stock in those colours, but the Green Line is subdivided into GL(B), GL(C), GL(D) & GL(E) routes the Silver Line BRT services are numbered SL1-SL5, but are technically part of the Subway network, so appear on the Subway Map and the commuter rail lines...have names! I think you have it spot on - it's just their history.
They added alphanumeric codes to all the highways in Australia about a decade ago to be more like International roads. We still just refer to the roads by name, its a lot less complicated.
Toronto used to just give its lines names, but in the last couple decades have put numbers alongside them; so the Yonge-University-Spadina line is now 1 Yonge-University. Similarly the Scarborough RT became Line 3 Scarborough, and so on. This has let them simplify signage by just using coloured dots with the line's number in it in wayfinding and other contexts.
I came here to mention Toronto. I like the names and was surprised when the numbers started. I used to simply say Yonge subway and Bloor subway. Sorry Scarborough RT, never rode you, lol
I use to date a Danish Guy who described the London naming convention as Hygge. It’s cozy, familiar and old timey. He’s right but I could see letters being used for DLR or over ground
The Tokyo subway system uses names as well, I spent many hours on the Hanzōmon Line, for example. The Ginza line, from memory, was the oldest and it feels like its rather old.
Thank you Jago for a good reason to have the “line names” that we do. I then thought of the imaginary (in my mind” of the “Waterloo City and Piccadilly Railway Company” that would become the WC&P, (stop sniggering , oh but there was a WC&P, the Weston Clevedon and Portishead light railway in Somerset). Then I remember Jago’s video that mentioned Cockfosters. Safe journeys Jago. Best wishes from Oxfordshire.
My father used to describe his experiences of travelling on the Somerset line including debunking from the carriage(s) to pick blackberries or seasonal flowers whilst the driver/crew were engaged sorting the crossing gates!😅
The Brits also influenced how Hong Kong named their railway lines too, I.E mostly their furthest location from the center of Hong Kong: East rail line, Tuen Ma line (as in Tuen Mun and Ma On Shan, in which previously two separate lines: West rail line and Ma On Shan line), Tsuen Wan line, Kwun Tong line, Island line, Tseung Kwan O line, compared with China which all lines are numbered!
When tourists ask me how to get to places on the Tube I always tell them the colours as well as the names. They then have a choice. For myself if I find myself at an unfamiliar interchange I think I generally follow the colours and so does my American cousin's friend who she often brings with her. Earlier this year she came over on her own and decided she wanted to meet me at my local pub. I told her to ask the hotel in Kensington how to get to the green line on the bus, which they did, then get on the green line east to Victoria, change to the pale blue line to my local station and then which bus to catch and where to get off. She managed this without a hitch. I was very proud of her. The only names I'd mentioned were two stations and the pub.
Your observation on the risk of innumeracy leading one to end up in Penge is well taken. My grandfather used to live in Penge-les-Deux-Églises (as it was known in the time of the Plantagenets), and he was not very good at arithmetic.
Aside from the historical reasons for naming, most of the lines are self-contained and almost all tend to have distinct routings (EXCEPT on the sub-surface lines). This helps tremendously in identifying a line just by name, as opposed to having a letter or number for each line. It works for both the everyday commuter and within TfL. Compare it to New York City, which uses letters (former BMT and IND wider trains) and numbers (former IRT narrower trains) for the services. Everyday commuters say things like "take the (4) LINE to Grand Central" or "take the (M) TRAIN to Manhattan" when referring to these service patterns. BUT within official MTA, the physical infrastructure these services run on also has line names. For example: The (F) train runs on the Queens Boulevard line, the 63rd Street line, the 6th Avenue line, and the Culver line. The (4) train runs on the Woodlawn line, the Lexington Avenue line, and the Eastern Parkway line. The (N) train runs on the Astoria line, the Broadway line, the 4th Avenue line, and the Sea Beach line. The (7) train runs on the Flushing line. The (A) train runs on the 8th Avenue line, the Fulton Street line, and the Rockaways line.
If you are not careful, I will go all data-analytic on you ! "Lines" are somewhat arbitrary things, "routes" are identified uniquely by the two termini and (if necessary) the specific path between them, "train" denote a specific collection of coaches, "track" denotes a specific collection of rails and sleepers. It is possible to identify things like tracks, trains and routes uniquely and unambiguously, and it follows that it is possible to put identifiers on trains and signage boards which specify EXACTLY where each train is going and via what intermediate stations. However it is unlikely that people could be bothered to learn all the various details and they may not even be necessary. Example - if you are travelling between Marble Arch and Bank on the Central Line, you don't care what the final destination of the train is, so we tend to use less precise but more comprehensible directions - "take the Central Line, it's the red one, you want the eastbound/westbound platform, get on any train".
Dare to change the names of our great underground lines, and you'll have me to deal with! I've grown up with them, used them all, seen the birth of the Jubilee and Victoria line (I'm in the film!), and, like hundreds of people, treasure the history and names of our great system. Thanks for the memories Jago.
Here in Toronto, our rapid transit lines all have names and numbers. From 1954 to 2014, we only had names, like London does. Yonge-University-Spadina Bloor-Danforth Scarborough RT Sheppard In 2014 for the purposes of better wayfinding and improving subway replacement services, each subway line was given a route number. As it happens, they were numbered in the order in which they opened. The lines are now referred to as: Line 1 Yonge-University Line 2 Bloor-Danforth Line 3 Scarborough RT Line 4 Sheppard Line 5 Eglinton Crosstown Line 6 Finch West As you can see, though we numbered our lines, they retain their names and are interchangeably referred to as Line X or their original names. As stated, the numbered system was to improve wayfinding and the route numbers are also used by shuttle buses during subway closures. Previously, the signage was very inconsistent and heck, sometimes buses just had random signs.
Just a random thought... Just how great were the Victorian engineers? The London Underground is still using the tunnels they built / dug out 150 years ago.
Pretty good. A lot of construction is a function of time and cost. If you have effectively unlimited time and all the “free” labor you wanted you can do incredible things. This is why the ancients built amazing things that have lasted to today.
@@VictorianDad No I quoted the word free because I was referring to the ancient world and you still have to pay to buy a slave and pay to feed and clothe them. Now it is a much cheaper form of labor than what the Victorians or we have, but it still cost some money.
@@donkeysaurusrex7881 Victorian laborers were paid, you do know that, right? Compared to being an iterant farm worker when you didn't know where (of if) your next meal was coming from, the promise of a steady wage was a huge draw. In the 18th century that sort of farm work was common, it was seasonal and workers didn't have any security. Till well into the late 19th century nearly half of all workers were employed on the land. A horrible job was better than that, from their perspective. There's a reason cities like Manchester swelled rapidly, despite being disgustingly squalid (even by the standards of the day). And yeah, 6s a week for a labourer wasn't awesome, but at least there was food on the table and you might be able to secure your children an apprenticeship and a step up in the world. It's perspective. You're approaching it from the standpoint of someone in current year, not theirs.
The Paris Metro has numbers. Two lines, 13 and 14, joined up to form one line, renumbered to 13 throughout, allowing 14 to be re-used. London names don't allow for this, but the names make the lines more memorable.
The TTC used to use names for different subway lines, e.g. the Yonge Line, Bloor Line etc. It made sense because they corresponded to the street they ran under. So if you were on the Yonge Line you were going under Yonge Street. Then they went to numbers e.g. the Yonge Line is now Line 1. I find the numbers confusing and stupid. The buses have both numbers and names, the names correspond with the street they run on, e.g No. 5 -Avenue Road Bus. Yes Toronto has a street named Avenue Road. Most people however use the name not the number for the bus. There is actually a song called "The Spadina Bus"
Yes. Def do a series on the origins of the names. And then the same for oddity stations. Like Mornington Crescent. Samantha might like to give you a hand.
I kind of like the concept that Stockholm Metro uses with line colours combined with route numbers. Lines are known mostly by the route colours, much like the LU line names, but also uses route numbers for individual service patterns. I would think that adopting something like this could be very useful in London too. The District Line could for example continue to be called the District Line, but could also use route numbers to distinguish between trains running for example Wimbledon-Edgware Road, Richmod-Upminster etc.
But do people of other nationalities know all the colour names in Swedish, and how to pronounce them? and count in Swedish? - I suppose it would be a good start to learning a language, but maybe at the points of entry it would be a good idea to issue tourists with a guide ...
@@ricktownend9144 Signs towards red line platforms are red, for example. So that works anyway without knowing the language. I must also say that when I follow signs at the bigger tube stations in London I also look more for the colours on the signs than the line names on them. But, this whole concept only works for people who can see all colours and that is where the system with line names like LU has is better. So, the concept of line names and colours like in London combined with the concept of line colours and route numbers like in Stockholm would be a very useful combination in my opinion.
Hallo Jago. In Moscow we named our lines mostly because of stations locations. For example line which im using everyday "Kalininskaya line" (Калининская линия). Back then, Moscow had a district called "Kaliniski" (Калининский), named after a guy "Kalinin" (Калинин). Now this district split into several other districts. Some lines have names because of their shape, "Koltsevaya/Circle line" (Кольцевая линия ) and "Big Circle Line/Bol'shaya Kol'tsevaya liniya" (Большая Кольцевая Линия/БКЛ).
One thing which is interesting in Moscow is how stations which are served by more than one line have different names for each line. This adds to the excitement of trying to decode the Cyrillic alphabet at high speed !
Great video as always, Jago! The train system here in Boston (the MBTA or just “The T”) uses colors to differentiate between lines (Orange Line, Red Line, etc.) and the different extensions of the Green Line use alpha to denote their destination after they slink off from a last common stop. They exist in relative harmony, despite the lackluster performance record of the system as a whole.
@@Joanna-il2ur yes, it is largely unchanged. A few of the above-ground stations have been rebuilt to accommodate rapid growth and extension of the Green Line, but on the whole - very much the same.
@@TheAltonEllis there was a station just on the city side on the Charles, inbound from Cambridge, which did surprise me. I didn’t expect them to remain the same, but there’s only so much you can do underground.
Seeing what you did with the 125 years of Waterloo and City, I for one would love to see more of that longer form stuff, though i appreciate its also more work to create.
That which we call the Central Line by any other name would screech as much! So, indeed, there is no point in renaming any line. Things aren't necessarily simpler elsewhere, either. On the Moscow Metro, lines have numbers AND names. THAT really seems pointless.
You captured it in your closing remarks, for a small number of cases names are much easier to remember than letters or numbers. When it comes to services upon the more complex lines an even better reason is what you mentioned with respect to electronic displays. Passengers don't want a mental lookup table for which number corresponds to which destination. As you probably recall 4SUB, 4EPB stock on the southern region had route numbers, absent any other indication on the train itself as to where it was headed. These disappeared with the first generations of sliding door stock that all had destination blinds. Note in the UK in general where bus routes have a number or number/letter designation there have long been displays of both the destination and principal calling points on destination blinds, as can be seen from your vintage bus footage. Thus any change would achieve precisely nothing.
Good point about the buses. The intermediate calling points list on destination blinds has been an easy way in to using buses in London and many other enlightened cities - you can forget the numbers by and large when travelling about central London at least. The old RT buses in the 1950s and 60s used to have the list on front, back, and by the entrance (where you need it). Dot matrix indicators are not as good as the traditional roller blinds.
It's one of those things where if they were going to give Underground lines a number or letter designation then then they should have done it a century or more ago. While the lines still have names like the London Underground, Tokyo's subway could be used as an example of what London could consider because they have individual codes for each station on the line such as the Hibiya line giving stops station codes such as H-01, H-02, H-03 etc. Each station still has a name but the codes are useful for quick reference for those who might not know where exactly on the Northern line and it's many branches a particular station is etc.
Vancouver still has names! The Canada Line, Expo Line, Millennium Line. We also have the SeaBus which isn’t a train, but a ferry. TransLink definitely take inspiration from TfL in more ways than one.
Still better than naming after colours. I find naming lines after colours a attempt at creative namingbut giving up half way. Then just use letter or numbers. But full names like In London give each line a character. While I’m used to calling metro-lines as this how it is done here in Frankfurt Germany, I sometimes group them by letters as how w they where planned. U1, U2, U3 and U8 main truck line was planned as the A-Line and for a couple of years after opening the lines where referred as A1 to A4 (U8 didn’t existed back than and U2 was A2 as well as A4). U4, U5 are B-Line, U6 and U7 is C-Line. There’s is also a disconnect mess of D-Lines. U4, U8 runs partially on two disconnected part of the D-Line. U9 rubs on the same part as U8 and is considered a D-Line despite running more in A territory without serving the A trunk. I too refer to some main-line rail lines by name nut number, as they where traditionally called that. Main-Weser-Bahn, Main-Neckar-Bahn, Riedbahn, Mainbahn, Kinzigtalbahn, etc.
local tramlink timetables do refer to the normal service pattern as TL1 and TL2 but generally the system is flexible on most passenger routings as one network
The MTA here followed London as separate competing companies. Also had names but changed to a letter/number code over time. So doubt it has to do with age.
A user of the Washington METRO system for nearly thirty years, I find the use of common identification systems such as COLOR can lead to confusion when seeing internet news items that do not apply. For example, I might glimpse an article that says “Blue-line Train Derailment” and think there was a problem on the Washington system, then to go to the trouble of opening a story and realize it was Boston, or Chicago, or, even, Montreal. While it doesn’t effect the riding experience, the color naming reduces the lines’ individuality.
Looking at the poster for the London Underground Electeic Railway, I see they used the strapline swift and sure. Another transport company, Hoverlloyd who oprated a hovercraft service between Ramsgate and Calais called their two SR.N4 hovercraft Swift and Sure.
Great video, thanks for the answer! I think Barcelona had some similarities with London regarding urban railways. Let me explain briefly. The oldest lines of our Metro system were built by separate companies, namely the Ferrocarril de Barcelona a Sarrià in 1863 (first was broad gauge, then converted to international gauge in 1905 and became underground in 1929), then the Gran Metropolità de Barcelona "Gran Metro" in 1924 (international gauge, originally running from Catalunya to Lesseps), and finally the Ferrocarril Metropolità de Barcelona "Transversal" in 1926 (broad gauge, originally conceived to link the mainline termini in Barcelona, originally running from Bordeta to Catalunya). Then in 1961 the Gran Metro and the Transversal were fused (municipalized) and their lines were given roman numerals... like when the LPTB was formed and they brought all the underground lines together into a single entity. Also I think the Transversal was already municipalized in the late 50s. The Sarrià line was always independent, until 1977 when it was temporally controled by FEVE (national narrow gauge mainline) because of financial problems and it could have been closed, but in 1979 it was handled to the new Ferrocarrils de la Generalitat de Catalunya. The rest is history. Funny enough, the Sarrià line is a bit like the Metropolitan line. It is a suburban railway but has urban branches like the Hammersmith and City. Also there's that service from Plaça Espanya to Molí Nou, they consider it another metro line but that's clearly a pure suburban service and they ruined it because they are so dumb and obsessed to metro-ize everything.
Yes. The London Underground system is considerably older than its counterparts in other countries. And it had a co Plex coming to be. Had it not been for the LTSB thing would have been much more complicated today. I think it’s nice to have underground lines named rather than numbered as it preserves the history better. In the Stockholm underground system, founded around 1950 we got numbers instead. But then the numbers pretty much went away and was replaced by colors. Green red and blue lines soon complimented by the new yellow line. This even though all of the lines have branches. The destination boards just show the terminus of the route. No numbers anymore and no colors on the trains. Just on the underground maps
My american cousins from DC came over recently and I couldn’t really answer why we name our lines instead of just using cousins. But now I can use this awesome video!!!!
One way a numbering system could be useful is to help with service patterns to show where trains terminate. So you'd have a big letters and numbers on the front of the train and on the station screens. e.g. N1 = Edgware, N2 = High Barnet N3 = Mill Hill East N4 = Golders Green, etc. Paris takes this to a whole extra level with 4 letter codes where I believe the first digit is the destination, the second is the code for the stops and the 3rd and 4th simply make it a memorable name. So a Barking Riverside all stations train would have a code like RAVA. A Jago Hazard outing to Paris is clearly needed! I think the actual names have great charm and should be kept and I look forward to the naming of the Overground and DLR very soon.
I'd point out that with the exception of Central and Circle, the first letter of each line is unique within the Underground. If you like naming your lines by colour, I'm pretty sure most Londoners (except those that are colour-blind) could follow along if you talked about the lines by colour, and you could certainly navigate the system that way, since nearly all signs associated with each line also have the colour on them. Sorry to foreigners who don't like our quirky names for each line, but if I'm honest I find an array of letters and numbers and a subway map that is an actual map rather than a neat, orderly diagram very confusing when I visit NYC. Does that mean I think they should change it? - no, it's just the way it is! The NY'ers are used to it, just as Londoners are used to this. I do think it is high time we separated out the routes on the DLR and Overground, as an example, there's 2 DLR lines out of Stratford station, the length of time it took me to look up on which line and platform I'd be heading for when planning a route to London City Airport, was rather frustrating.
Here in Toronto the powers that be changed the Yonge-University-Spadina line to Line 1, the Bloor-Danforth to Line 2. No one asked for this to be done but it was and here we are. New York City still has the IRT, the BMT and so forth and like London they were built by individual companies.
Here in Newwww England, our American interstate highways have numbered exits. They used to be the order in which you came upon them. Recently, they were renumbered to align with the number of miles from the start of the road, that way you could tell there were 5 miles between exits 7 and 12, for whatever usefulness you find there. But locally, we call them by their local road. I-495 has interchange with Rt 2, then 110, then Great Road rt 119, then Boston Road, then North Road rt 4, then 110 (they cross a lot), then rt 3, etc. Names are far more useful than the number. You miss-speak about exits 7 and 8 but never [this] Hill and [that] Road exits.
I really like that the lines use names instead of letters and/or numbers, really. Honestly way more memorable, distinct, reflective of relevant history and culture, potentially descriptive, and it just gives the lines a real sense of identity overall. Charming too - I'm very fond of the name 'Bakerloo' for instance. A good name rolls off the tongue and stands out as well - even a name that is admittedly questionable by most of the above considerations, 'Jubliee', still certainly *sounds* very good. Great video!
I myself am just used to the names of the lines & much prefer it to letters . I remember way back overhearing a staff member @ Paddington underground station helping some international tourists to get somewhere by quoting the line colour instead .
So, I'm from Southern California, which has it's own, bizarre, history of railways. Most recently, LA's MTA had a scheme of using colors to identify the lines: Red, Blue, Green, Gold. Then a pair of (mostly) separated busways were similarly named the Orange & Silver lines. Then a light rail named "Expo" was opened, so named after following Exposition Boulevard for much of its length (itself named after Exposition Park, an agricultural fairgrounds that gradually grew to host several sports venues, museums, and has twice hosted the Olympics). Anyway, all of these nominally-colored routes were recently transitioned to alphabetical letter identifiers, more like New York (buses remain numbered). The primary advantages of this (which I only begrudgingly acknowledge) is that it allows for easier identification of lines across languages (although, come to think of it, most of the time colors are more easy to translate than a Latin-character), along with specificity of branching services (the Red Line's multiple service patterns could easily confuse even locals), and of course to accommodate expansion (did they really run out of colors when they got to "Expo"? After merely Red, Purple, Blue, Green, Silver, Orange, and Gold?). Oh yeah, and San Francisco just re-branded their BART trains from destination-based identifiers to colors, all while this mess was going on in Los Angeles. Figure that one out.
Your public servant serves you right. I worked in local government for a number of years and the ability of the elected representatives to make a hopeless confusing mess out of a perfectly simple situation beggars belief.
the DC metro internally uses a system like the boring one you're talking about. the public line names are colors, but the track routes themselves are lettered, each individual track is numbered, and stations are numbered sequentially with higher numbers being further from the center of the network. an example is that the A-route runs from A01 (metro center) to A15 (shady grove) and terminates at A99 which is the name for shady grove yard. A1 is the southbound track on the A-route, A2 is the northbound track, and in a few spots there's an A3 when it's 3 tracks wide. this lets you be very granular when you're describing where something is on the railroad. it also lets you give names to things that aren't used by any particular line in revenue service, like the A to C connector. an example service is the blue line, which starts at G05 on the G route, then joins the D route, which becomes the C route at metro center, then follows the J route to J03. it's a nice system that allows every line to be extended without messing the system up. you can also change where the trains go without needing to rename anything. the only oddities are that a few letters are missing because they correspond to something that was planned but never built.
I agree that the names and colours on the maps make sense in a way that letters or numbers don't. However, the biggest confusion at first, and the one that really throws all tourists into melt down is the mess that is the "Northern Line". It is actually at least two lines and provides endless opportunities to really get confused. BTW: If names rather than numbers or letters really makes you angry, you might need to look at your social life.
I lived in London for ten years, now Madrid, where the lines are either described by their number or colour. I much prefer the names on the tube, easier to remember and more natural (although that might not be the case for foreigners in London with strange names like "bakerloo").
I love the names of the tube lines. It give the line much more "personality", and makes it easier to distinguish them. I wish more cities would name their lines. Also, from tfl's point of view, it makes people wonder why the names are the way they are, I.e. The tube stays in people's head maybe just a little longer - which is publicity.
The Northern Line is the one where the origin of the name is most mysterious. It just seems to have emerged at some point, so a future video on that would be a good one 😁
I'll second that. It was the "Morden - Edgware line" until as late as summer 1937. Presumably the renaming, apart from standardizing on single-word names, was also to reflect the Northern Heights project then in development.
I could be late adding this, but the NYC subway was as well started by multiple companies over multiple decades. It too has named routes like the Lexington Avenue line, and the Sea Beach line, but, it has been able to code itself with letters and numbers. [The reason for both is one of the original companies dug their tunnels nerrower then normal and now equipment can't be shared]
In Sydney, all our lines have had names, usually but not always after the physical railways that carry them (North Shore & Western, Northern, Airport & East Hills etc, the latter I shall refer to as A&EH). The ones not named after the physical lines tend to be geographically named (Southern Highlands, Blue Mountains, Central Coast & Newcastle, Inner West & South). Since 2013 every line was also numbered: The North Shore, Western & Northern were grouped into the T1, the South, Inner West and A&EH became T2… in all we got 7. In 2017, the big conglomerate lines got split up to their pre-2013 status: The A&EH became its own thing and was numbered T8, whilst the Northern Line became T9. With one exception, the others have stayed as is. There is no longer a T6: The Carlingford Line was closed in 2020 to convert it to Light Rail. In 2013, our other transport systems also got numbered: The ferries became F1, F2, F3 etc. (up to F10 now) whilst the Light Rail became the L1 (since joined by L2 & L3). The buses were not numbered B1, B2 etc. and kept their original route numbers (of which there are heaps), which is simpler but means a Bananas In Pyjamas reference can’t be made. Are you thinking what I’m thinking B1? Probably not B2; because you don’t exist!* In reality, nobody really uses the numbering system: The F1 is still very much the “Manly Ferry” and the T1 is still the “North Shore & Western Line”. I prefer the names; it’s more fun than just numbers or letters. *There is a B1 express bus route from the Northern Beaches to the city known colloquially as “B-Line”, a branding it since adopted. But it doesn’t have a B2 twin or wear its night clothes permanently; it is yellow though…
What you said about "inherently less confusing" there is nothing intrinsically obvious/right about letters/numbers. (Although would Duke Ellington's "Take the A Train" work with named lines...?). Also, alphanumeric systems imply logic (eg numbers accross and letters up) good luck fitting eg the Met into that.
I agree with the Docklands Light Railway to have route numbers. Which would make it bit easier for commuters who want to go on the DLR. DLR Line 1-Stratford-Lewisham/Canary Wharf DLR Line 2-Bank/Tower Gateway-Canary Wharf/Lewisham DLR Line 3-Bank/Tower Gateway-Beckton DLR Line 4-Bank/Tower Gateway-Woolwich Arsenal DLR Line 5-Stratford International-Beckton DLR Line 6-Stratford International-Woolwich Arsenal
Some cities use colors instead of letters or numbers. The colors of course correspond to the signage of each line. Such as in Boston. Also in Charlotte, NC, where I live. Although there's only one line at the moment (the Blue Line). At some point in the future when there's funding for it, a Silver Line and Red Line is supposed to be added.
In Toronto the lines used to have names based on the streets they ran under/ alongside, Such as the Young Line, Bloor line, etc. It was easy to know where they were going and which line would be appropriate for a journey. Now the have the completely unhelpful identification of a number. Line 1, Line 2 etc convey no idea of where the run, or even whether they are North/south or east/west.
I must confess that, when visiting the Paris Metro, I like the numbers because I already have to remember the name of the correct terminus and the name of the station where I must get off or transfer. Another name would be a bit of a strain on my memory. The London Underground works out for me too, but probably only because my English is better than my French. Still, I think that it is more important for a city to keep local traditions alive than to use a foreigner's perspective like mine.
Brixton plstforms have been completely redecorated since opening, so have the Victoria Line platforms at Warren Street and Victoria. All the glass-illuminared sugns have been removed, exceot at Pimlico (and Hatton Cross on the Piccadilly Line). There's also an out of use one at Moorgate, at least there was when I last looked !!😂
There are quite a few railway lines which have a certain name (in fact, almost all of them are part of the railway network proper) but named services are practically unheard of in Germany (nieche examples exist but the exception proves the rule) and it's typical to use a prefix (if there is any and busses and trams typically don't) + a number to denote service patterns instead.
Named bus services have included Shoplinker , Airbus , Green Line, Red Arrow , Superbus/Stevenage Bus, (some of which carried a form of route letter/number or route number to differentiate routings. ) We are now getting Superloop
I'm in favour of names, as long as it's clearly understood that "Circle Line" means "Used to be circular only in a topological sense but now it's not even that Line".
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Hey Corinne if you're reading this it's Edgar from the speed dating night!
For everyone else, yes Jago Hazzard came up as a point of conversation during a 4 minute speed date!
If it works out, can I get a wedding invitation?
How did the date go?
@@archstanton6102 Edgar is obviously keen or he wouldn't be posting here. As to how Corinne feels, only time will tell.
Time to buy a new hat, methinks .
The reception will, of course, be held in Penge.
Good luck!
As someone who uses the Tube only occasionally, the names are way more friendly and memorable than the number / letter systems other cities have. Knowing you need to get the Elizabeth Line and then the Northern Line is way easier to remember than getting Line 17B and then Line 5Z.
Regular commuters will get used to it either way, but the London system works great with a lot of visitors.
It depends on the system, how many lines there are, how well the transit map is made, and how the stations are laid out. As long as you can look at the map and see how to get from where you are to where you want to go, it doesn't really matter what the lines are called, as long as the trains are easily identifiable when you're on the station, so you're able to get on the right train. Whether that means the lines have letters, numbers, or names, is completely irrelevant, and it is perfectly possible to use a mix of all three at the same time, which many cities (other than London) do
This; it's much easier to remember names than single letters or numbers.
I'm with @thesteelrodent, it depends on what you're used to. I'm used to numbers, combined with a colour (it took some getting used to the new colour of bus 48, for instance), so that's what I use. Even our railway lines have numbers, where some have names, they aren't used very much, the numbers are. I can tell you exactly over which lines you travel going from say Brussels to say Dinant (L0, L161, L154) or to Kortrijk (L50A, L75 or the slower L89).
Names are easier to tell a story, a well-known technique to remember things, but it works with numbers, too.
@@barvdw Numbers are only really useful where creating large numbers of names would be too difficult.
Numbers or letters have the advantage of being sortable, by construction time (line 1 would be older than line 3) or they might give a hint about location. You would expect to find lines 17 and 18 to be close to each other, or 41 and 42 to be a variation of 4 etc. These do not work with names.
4:35 Bin bag blowing in the breeze. I bet Geoff Marshall would never have thought of filming that.
Interestingly, the air moving the bag is coming from a direction about 180 degrees from the direction of travel of the train. The air moved by the train must be reflecting off something.
@@hb1338The wall at the end of the platform.
Tokyo's metropolitan railways have names too. There's just something nice about being able to say "Yamanote line" or "Marunouchi line" instead of "Line 14" or "Line C".
The Tokyo Subway lines do actually have line numbers, but they're almost never used, with the names and letter abbreviations of those names being far more common.
Those railways use numbers for the stations, not the lines. With a network as big as theirs, it's not a bad idea. If you know you have to get to the staton "JY10", you are already on the line where station codes begin with "JY", and the numbers get closer to 10 as you travel, you know you're going the correct way.
They use numbers for stations, and I think it's a good idea that more systems should do, but the lines do actually have numbers. For example, the Marunouchi Line is officially Line 4, and the Shinjuku Line is Line 10. This is just a Tokyo Subway thing though, and the numbers aren't used outside of planning.
Using names for the lines is far better than using letters or numbers. It's distinctive and, importantly, much more intelligible, especially in noisy environments like, oh, a tube station (there's a reason military radio communications use "alpha", "bravo", "foxtrot", "tango", etc.) Here's what Dave Barry had to say about the New York subway system:
"It's very easy for the 'out- of-towner' to use, thanks to the logical, easy-to-understand system of naming trains after famous letters and numbers.
For directions, all you have to do is peer up through the steaming gloom at the informative signs, which look like this:
A 5 N 7 8 C 6 AA MID-DOWNTOWN 7 3/8
EXPRESS LOCAL ONLY LL 67*
DDD 4* 1 K * AAAA 9 ONLY
EXCEPT CERTAIN DAYS BB ** 3
MIDWAY THROUGH TOWN 1 7 D
WALK REAL FAST AAAAAAAAA 56"
I rest my case.
"famous letters and numbers" - lol!!
The New York Subway is notorious for getting lost on. Its lines are too jumbled up, and illogical; plus although the signage is decent (but nowhere near as good as the LU), many of its stations look rough and uncared for.
It's a network that's chronically starved of investment. Some stations have barely changed since the early 90's. In this respect it's light years behind the LU, and Paris Metro.
That said, although many of its station platforms leave alot to be desired, it still has some gorgeous old Edwardian entrance canopies on street level.
As with the Paris Metro, nearly all of its stations lie completely under street level. It doesn't have surface level buildings with 'walk-in' street entrances like the LU - but steps taking you underground, like Paris has.
Now instead of "A", "5", "N", etc, replace each of them with a name. The sign would have to be a mile long.
Here in Chicago, our rapid transit system currently uses colors as names, i.e. "Red Line", "Green Line", etc. These lines used to have names, based on the routes destination, so there was a Ravenswood Line, a Jackson Park, an Englewood Line, and so on. We also had a Stockyards Line and a suburban express line called the Skokie Swift. Those old names have been gone for decades, but I still think of the system with those names. There's something to be said for a touch of history.
I like the idea of Stockyards Line. I have a mental image of lines and lines of petty criminals with their hands and faces poking through holes in heavy wooden blocks while the law-abiding populace unleashes its inner bloodlust by throwing rotten fruit and veg at them.
It isn't that sort of stock yard, is it? Sigh.
When you catch the Green Line do you end up in Leggo land ?
There is something to be said for that system, particularly for visitors not familiar with the lines, as they can identify them on a map at a glance. I wonder how many visitors to London think of lines by the colours on the map rather than their names.
I do like that the Yellow Line still uses the little Skokie Swift bird icon on its signage. That's unique to the entire CTA system.
Not sure that would work in London. Last I heard, the Green Line (a semi-express bus service) was still going there, though with far fewer routes than in its sixties heyday.
I've travelled on the London Underground many times in my life and I quite like the present Tube Line names, they give the lines a sense of personality, and are also memorable sometimes for the colour codes they use, like Bakerloo = brown, and so on.
I like the names too, but after watching a French tourist try to pronounce the word 'Piccadilly' I do wonder if letters/numbers in addition to the traditional names could help.
@@ijmad Or how about an American grappling with Leicester Square ?
Lie cesta usually !!
"after watching a French tourist try to pronounce the word 'Piccadilly' I do wonder if letters/numbers in addition to the traditional names could help." No, letters/numbers wouldn't help. Tourists need to learn to pronounce the names properly. Piccadilly is not difficult at all to read/pronounce. Its easy. it sounds how it's spelt. Try pronouncing some of the welsh place names. Now that is difficult.
@@ijmad Why should we bother helping French tourists ?
@@simonwinter8839 Leicester, Gloucester, Worcester (but not Cirencester) are shibboleths. They allow us to identify an outsider and treat them appropriately.
One thing one doesn't appreciate until it's missed is the way signposting for the lines tells whether a platform is for eastbound, westbound, etc., trains. I lived in Paris for a while, and found it quite annoying having to know where a train might end up, even though I was intending to get off long before the train reached its ultimate destination.
I'm sure changing the names would have a seriously detrimental effect on the rules of Mornington Crescent, particularly the 1968 James-Palmer addendum to rule 147 subsection g (although I'm prepared to be corrected on this).
I'll give you an 'A' for this 1.
Personally, I find the Underground much more colourful and dare I say, friendly with line names than say T1, T2, T3, W87 etc and so on. I dont like that sense that technology ruling you rather than the other way around. Arriving at Atlanta airport and having to swap terminals I took their underground shuttle train. The voice that said "Keep clear of the doors. Doors are closing" was exactly the same as the "Cylons" from the first series of Battlestar galactica. I got a laugh when I mimicked it and said "By your command, Imperious leader"
Because if they didn't have names they would have letters and that's just foreign.
Considering it was the first system, how it's named is the correct way. Those pesky foreigners just want to be different, like any child wants to be different from its parents. 😂
I've never considered whether it might be foreign to use letters, I'm just happy with the way it is with names. (I appreciate your comment is tongue in cheek).
Aren't numbers more foreign than letters?
Well, quite. If we give up naming lines in an arbitrary fashion, we might as well give up the LBW rule, Radio 4 on longwave, the shipping forecast, etc
Well, we in NYC have numbers AND letters, and we’ve done alright.
Though it’s mostly because they were formerly three _networks_ built by _two companies and the city itself…_
I agree that renaming Tube lines would only create confusion. And why should we use just letters or numbers just because everybody else does? They should give their lines names to bring them into line with the original!
I'm all for a couple of videos on how the current names came to be.
I'm slightly concerned that the UERL was mentioned, but there was no word or picture of this channel's favourite villain.
ianthomson
Charles was busy getting on at the wrong tram Station.
We do use letters for labelling the London Underground lines: just not _single_ letters, eg we use the 6 letters: A, C, I, R, T, V (one duplicated) to name the light blue line (V-I-C-T-O-R-I-A), ...
Haha
@@cigmorfil4101 What do we call a collection of letters ?
@@hb1338
A set.
As you said, because the lines always have had names, they always will because changing them would be weird and people would still use the old names anyway (like calling the elizabeth line crossrail, or the St. Pancras to Channel Tunnel High Speed 1). And since all the existing lines have names, new ones will have names through precident. Also I think a name adds a character to it, or at least the general attributes of the line are attached to the name.
I'm not so sure.I think people will call the Elizabeth line the Elizabeth line.I haven't heard anyone calling the Jubilee line the Fleet line recently.
Calling Crossrail "the Elizabeth line" was completely unneccessary and not in keeping with the times, and before she died it really didn't make any sense.
@@thesteelrodent1796 Why is it not in keeping with the times? It was opened during the new Elizabethan period, so seems rather apt.
@@JohnyG29 Many would consider celebrating monarchy rather outdated
" ....the general attributes of the line are attached to the name .... "
Which is why the Northern Line goes further south than any of the others.😁
"If it would be of interest...". You make it Jago, we'll watch it.
In Paris, companies had their own stations from which trains to the suburbs. The SNCF took over all these companies in the 1930s and rebranded these lines with simple letters. With this system, they were able to differentiate metro lines (numbers), suburb lines (letters), and tram lines (T+number). The system will differ for London as they don't have such drastic distinctions in the multiple systems.
When I visit Paris I get super confused though, seems to be a lack of signage assuming perhaps that folk should just instinctively know which escalator to use.
@@BlueTangWebSystems maybe you were in stations being refurbished? Because, normally, everything is clearly labelled
The LA Metro lines used to be named after colours, with some relevance. For some unknown reason they have just re-named all the lines with letters. Now I have no idea which one is which.
Just another example of "Trying to fix something that ain't broke"
In the US, other than New York City, which uses letters, rail transit systems use colors: red, green, blue, yellow/gold, brown, orange, pink, purple ... to denote each line
Please, can we have the long and rambling version of this video - there is just so much history (and hysteria) to the names of London's underground (but often above ground) railways.
For a New Yorker,coming into Penn Station,you had a choice of two subway lines,the 7th,and the 8th,respectively! Each on one side of the Station! One was the IRT[7th Avenue],and the other was the IND[8TH AVENUE],taking either of them,would get you,uptown or downtown,rather rapidly! If the traveler came into Grand Central,there was the IRT Lexington Avenue,and the shuttle,connecting 42nd Street crosstown! Again,you could connect uptown and downtown! In Grand Central,ask at the information booth,under the clock!! That is what most people found to get the subways in New York,and probably still do!! Thank you 😇 😊! Thank you 😇 😊!
Although a few people know the IRT/BMT/IND names they only appear today in some ceramic tile signs on the walls of a few stations. Individual lines have a number (IND lines) or letter. The background color on the letter/number symbols matches the route color on the map, but unlike in DC or elsewhere the lines are not referred to by color. The D isn't the Orange Line.
@emjayay As an addendum, that's mostly because in NYC, multiple routes can share a color (the A & C; the B & D; and the 1, 2, 3) while in other cities like DC and Boston, each line has its own color which it doesn't have to share.
Here in Copenhagen, our commuter network (the S-trains) consist of 10 or so lines that were joined up between 1888 and 1953. Some of them used to go much further than they do today, because they made a separation between trains serving Copenhagen and trains serving the surrounding countryside when the commuter network was electrified between 1926 and 1934. Each of these lines all have names to describe which direction they go - West line, Bay line, Coast line, and so on - but the trains that go on the lines, the actual routes, are denoted by letters, and each letter has had an assigned colour since the late 1960s when the second generation trains went into service. Since we have multiple routes that share tracks, doing it this way makes it easier to distinguish between the lines and the routes, and incidentially it's a lot easier for people who are dyslexic to only have to recognize one letter or colour, and people who are colourblind are happy to have the letters. The line names are still used in some context, but in daily speech, most people don't know the lines actually have names and typically refer to them by the terminus at the end of the line, but using the line names also don't make much sense since it doesn't tell you which train you need to go in that direction
Even well thought-out systems have complications.
Jago, a couple of thoughts, actually all I am capable of at one sitting these days. First like London the initial lines of the New York City Subway (remember we call the system that not the passage under the roads as in the UK) was created by private entities much like in London, while there were only two dominant players, the Interborough Rapid Transit, the first company back in 1904 starting in 1918 a second player came on the seen the Brooklyn Rapid Transit later after a bankruptcy the Brooklyn and Manhattan Transit Company, but both of these companies actually absorbed lines from other companies as well and then the city itself got into the business before all the lines were ultimately acquired and merged into the NYCTA in June 1940. The two original players bought up lines they merged into there systems, for example two of the lines one in Brooklyn, I forget which was originally part of the Long Island Railroad, and acquired by the BRT that shared part of the route to Brighton Beach. Subsequently the NYCTA would buy the Rockaway line of the Long Island Railroad in the 1950s to create the modern IND run to that part of the city.
New Yorkers for many years have continued to refer to the long gone company names I still think of the Lexington Avenue Line and the 7th Avenue Line as the IRT. Today the transit Authority prefers people to refer to them as the A Division. While our Maps don't use the names, in fact most New Yorkers when speaking to each other about how to get somewhere on the system, particularly in Manhattan but elsewhere are much more like to tell you to use the 8th Avenue, or Broadway Line or the Lex, short for the Lexington Avenue Line. Even the newest part of the system the 2nd Avenue Subway ihas a name.
In NYC where there is much interlining - trains to different areas sharing track for part of a route the term "line" usually is referring to the tracks in a specific part of the city, and the letters routes that use the line. Some lines are almost exclusively known by there name to most folks like the Sea Beach, a train originating on the Broadway line in Manahattan in my day, it may still, and going to Coney Island.
So London's system is not really that unique in this regard. Mind you I love both systems and have spent many years riding both of them.
An explanation of the line names sounds like an excellent idea my good man Mr Hazzard.
Well, the original aim of the Great Western was to link London and Bristol, not so much for Bristol per se but as a connection with the transatlantic steamship service (whose first ship was the Great Western). That was the idea of West they were aiming for
I thought it was named after the 'Great West Road' ...
London has so many lines that using colors, as many American systems do, would be a non-starter because the names would have to start distinguishing subtle hue and shade differences. I think this is already a problem in Delhi, which chose to use colors for its gigantic system and now has a Pink Line, a Magenta Line and a Violet Line.
Numbers or letters (with an identifying direction) as in NYC or Paris would work, but I do like the added flavor of having line names.
In Montreal we habitually refer to the various lines by colours. This is neither more nor less arbitrary than numbers (which they also have) or names (which I don't think they do), but has one great advantage and three clear disadvantages: it makes reading the (admittedly very simple) map extremely fast, it causes issues depending on which exact kind of colourblindness you have, it limits future expansion to the number of namable colours (which, curiously, apparently varies by profession-I'm not quite sure what this means for transport engineering-do we get express routes for interior decorators only?), and _you can't get to Penge even on purpose._
I have to say that I like letters and numbers when referring to _routes._ It's nice to be able to say that to get to the house you need a 3B, easier than saying “the branch of the Blurthold Line that turns right at Higher Spork.” Even endpoints won't do that job, depending on the specific kinds of weirdness your city holds.
Also, where do you get the idea that there is any limit to the rambling that would put us off? I strongly suspect that we (other than Edgar) are mostly here for the rambling.
Colour-coding is not necessarily limited by the number of nameable colours but by how distinctive the colours are. Anyone -- even most colour-blind people -- can differentiate between bright red and bright blue, but it is extremely difficult (especially if you don't see them side by side) to tell whether you are on the Oxblood, Crimson or Burgundy line.
@@jaakkomantyjarvi7515 The reason I say nameable ones is just that the main reason we do this is so that you can give directions to someone else. Thus we actually need names that two people can share without prior context. Unless the printed map shows _a name for each colour_ I think we run out of easily agreed colour names long before we run out of discriminable colours. Indeed, if all we need is visual distinctness, there is a vast (order billions) vocabulary of line widths, outlining, dashes, embedded symbols and so available-but “meet me where the width five teal centre yellow and crimson long dash outline meets the dot-dot-dash width three outline width six peach and duck egg” is not going to work.
In Boston MA, the MBTA has a rather mixed system:
the Bus routes are just numbered (no issue there)
the Subway lines are known as the Blue (BL), Green (GL), Orange (OL) and Red (RL) Lines, with stock in those colours, but the Green Line is subdivided into GL(B), GL(C), GL(D) & GL(E) routes
the Silver Line BRT services are numbered SL1-SL5, but are technically part of the Subway network, so appear on the Subway Map
and the commuter rail lines...have names!
I think you have it spot on - it's just their history.
They added alphanumeric codes to all the highways in Australia about a decade ago to be more like International roads.
We still just refer to the roads by name, its a lot less complicated.
Same here. I despise roads with just a number especially if it has a name that makes sense
@@donkeysaurusrex7881 Despising inanimate objects ? Counsellors are available.
Toronto used to just give its lines names, but in the last couple decades have put numbers alongside them; so the Yonge-University-Spadina line is now 1 Yonge-University. Similarly the Scarborough RT became Line 3 Scarborough, and so on. This has let them simplify signage by just using coloured dots with the line's number in it in wayfinding and other contexts.
I came here to mention Toronto. I like the names and was surprised when the numbers started. I used to simply say Yonge subway and Bloor subway. Sorry Scarborough RT, never rode you, lol
I use to date a Danish Guy who described the London naming convention as Hygge. It’s cozy, familiar and old timey. He’s right but I could see letters being used for DLR or over ground
The Tokyo subway system uses names as well, I spent many hours on the Hanzōmon Line, for example. The Ginza line, from memory, was the oldest and it feels like its rather old.
Please do a series on the line names. It would be so interesting.
I suspect if they were given letters and or numbers people would devise slang names for them
Thank you Jago for a good reason to have the “line names” that we do.
I then thought of the imaginary (in my mind” of the “Waterloo City and Piccadilly Railway Company” that would become the WC&P, (stop sniggering , oh but there was a WC&P, the Weston Clevedon and Portishead light railway in Somerset). Then I remember Jago’s video that mentioned Cockfosters.
Safe journeys Jago. Best wishes from Oxfordshire.
My father used to describe his experiences of travelling on the Somerset line including debunking from the carriage(s) to pick blackberries or seasonal flowers whilst the driver/crew were engaged sorting the crossing gates!😅
The Brits also influenced how Hong Kong named their railway lines too, I.E mostly their furthest location from the center of Hong Kong: East rail line, Tuen Ma line (as in Tuen Mun and Ma On Shan, in which previously two separate lines: West rail line and Ma On Shan line), Tsuen Wan line, Kwun Tong line, Island line, Tseung Kwan O line, compared with China which all lines are numbered!
no 1 wafer:
Simpler to call it Hell 1,Hell 2 Etc...
When tourists ask me how to get to places on the Tube I always tell them the colours as well as the names. They then have a choice. For myself if I find myself at an unfamiliar interchange I think I generally follow the colours and so does my American cousin's friend who she often brings with her. Earlier this year she came over on her own and decided she wanted to meet me at my local pub. I told her to ask the hotel in Kensington how to get to the green line on the bus, which they did, then get on the green line east to Victoria, change to the pale blue line to my local station and then which bus to catch and where to get off. She managed this without a hitch. I was very proud of her. The only names I'd mentioned were two stations and the pub.
No need to mention the pub name when co-ordinates would serve just as well !
@@hb1338 There are two pubs across the road from each other one of which is on the same side of the road as the bus stop and it wasn't that one :-)
Your observation on the risk of innumeracy leading one to end up in Penge is well taken.
My grandfather used to live in Penge-les-Deux-Églises (as it was known in the time of the Plantagenets), and he was not very good at arithmetic.
The names of the different lines are poetry, Jago. We could use both names and alpha-numeric codes, of course.
Poetry. Yes. I agree 😊
The Whisky line. The India line. Could be fun.
You are the iambic pentameter to my Beck map.
@@fenlinescouser4105 Brilliant!😀
@@grahampaulkendrick7845 On the Bakerloo
From 'Arra going to the zoo
I make attempt to craft haiku.
When you do a dive into history, you need one of those wobbling screen things 😂
Aside from the historical reasons for naming, most of the lines are self-contained and almost all tend to have distinct routings (EXCEPT on the sub-surface lines). This helps tremendously in identifying a line just by name, as opposed to having a letter or number for each line. It works for both the everyday commuter and within TfL.
Compare it to New York City, which uses letters (former BMT and IND wider trains) and numbers (former IRT narrower trains) for the services. Everyday commuters say things like "take the (4) LINE to Grand Central" or "take the (M) TRAIN to Manhattan" when referring to these service patterns.
BUT within official MTA, the physical infrastructure these services run on also has line names.
For example:
The (F) train runs on the Queens Boulevard line, the 63rd Street line, the 6th Avenue line, and the Culver line.
The (4) train runs on the Woodlawn line, the Lexington Avenue line, and the Eastern Parkway line.
The (N) train runs on the Astoria line, the Broadway line, the 4th Avenue line, and the Sea Beach line.
The (7) train runs on the Flushing line.
The (A) train runs on the 8th Avenue line, the Fulton Street line, and the Rockaways line.
If you are not careful, I will go all data-analytic on you ! "Lines" are somewhat arbitrary things, "routes" are identified uniquely by the two termini and (if necessary) the specific path between them, "train" denote a specific collection of coaches, "track" denotes a specific collection of rails and sleepers. It is possible to identify things like tracks, trains and routes uniquely and unambiguously, and it follows that it is possible to put identifiers on trains and signage boards which specify EXACTLY where each train is going and via what intermediate stations. However it is unlikely that people could be bothered to learn all the various details and they may not even be necessary. Example - if you are travelling between Marble Arch and Bank on the Central Line, you don't care what the final destination of the train is, so we tend to use less precise but more comprehensible directions - "take the Central Line, it's the red one, you want the eastbound/westbound platform, get on any train".
Dare to change the names of our great underground lines, and you'll have me to deal with! I've grown up with them, used them all, seen the birth of the Jubilee and Victoria line (I'm in the film!), and, like hundreds of people, treasure the history and names of our great system. Thanks for the memories Jago.
Here in Toronto, our rapid transit lines all have names and numbers. From 1954 to 2014, we only had names, like London does.
Yonge-University-Spadina
Bloor-Danforth
Scarborough RT
Sheppard
In 2014 for the purposes of better wayfinding and improving subway replacement services, each subway line was given a route number. As it happens, they were numbered in the order in which they opened.
The lines are now referred to as:
Line 1 Yonge-University
Line 2 Bloor-Danforth
Line 3 Scarborough RT
Line 4 Sheppard
Line 5 Eglinton Crosstown
Line 6 Finch West
As you can see, though we numbered our lines, they retain their names and are interchangeably referred to as Line X or their original names. As stated, the numbered system was to improve wayfinding and the route numbers are also used by shuttle buses during subway closures. Previously, the signage was very inconsistent and heck, sometimes buses just had random signs.
Just a random thought...
Just how great were the Victorian engineers?
The London Underground is still using the tunnels they built / dug out 150 years ago.
Pretty good. A lot of construction is a function of time and cost. If you have effectively unlimited time and all the “free” labor you wanted you can do incredible things. This is why the ancients built amazing things that have lasted to today.
@@donkeysaurusrex7881 Presumably you quoted the word "free" because you think the workers were underpaid?
@@VictorianDad No I quoted the word free because I was referring to the ancient world and you still have to pay to buy a slave and pay to feed and clothe them. Now it is a much cheaper form of labor than what the Victorians or we have, but it still cost some money.
@@donkeysaurusrex7881 Victorian laborers were paid, you do know that, right? Compared to being an iterant farm worker when you didn't know where (of if) your next meal was coming from, the promise of a steady wage was a huge draw. In the 18th century that sort of farm work was common, it was seasonal and workers didn't have any security. Till well into the late 19th century nearly half of all workers were employed on the land. A horrible job was better than that, from their perspective. There's a reason cities like Manchester swelled rapidly, despite being disgustingly squalid (even by the standards of the day). And yeah, 6s a week for a labourer wasn't awesome, but at least there was food on the table and you might be able to secure your children an apprenticeship and a step up in the world. It's perspective. You're approaching it from the standpoint of someone in current year, not theirs.
@@brick6347 I was referring to slaves in ancient times.
The Paris Metro has numbers. Two lines, 13 and 14, joined up to form one line, renumbered to 13 throughout, allowing 14 to be re-used. London names don't allow for this, but the names make the lines more memorable.
If 14 is ever re-used, how much confusion will be created ?
The TTC used to use names for different subway lines, e.g. the Yonge Line, Bloor Line etc. It made sense because they corresponded to the street they ran under. So if you were on the Yonge Line you were going under Yonge Street. Then they went to numbers e.g. the Yonge Line is now Line 1. I find the numbers confusing and stupid. The buses have both numbers and names, the names correspond with the street they run on, e.g No. 5 -Avenue Road Bus. Yes Toronto has a street named Avenue Road. Most people however use the name not the number for the bus. There is actually a song called "The Spadina Bus"
Wow - currently travelling on Lumo to EDB, and your end credits synced up with the view out the window. That lake, the brick hut, those same cows.
Yes. Def do a series on the origins of the names. And then the same for oddity stations. Like Mornington Crescent. Samantha might like to give you a hand.
Letters or numbers sound a bit totalitarian to me. People's Underground Railway Line No. 7 of the Democratic Republic of Somewhere.
you made me laugh! 😆
I kind of like the concept that Stockholm Metro uses with line colours combined with route numbers. Lines are known mostly by the route colours, much like the LU line names, but also uses route numbers for individual service patterns. I would think that adopting something like this could be very useful in London too. The District Line could for example continue to be called the District Line, but could also use route numbers to distinguish between trains running for example Wimbledon-Edgware Road, Richmod-Upminster etc.
But do people of other nationalities know all the colour names in Swedish, and how to pronounce them? and count in Swedish? - I suppose it would be a good start to learning a language, but maybe at the points of entry it would be a good idea to issue tourists with a guide ...
@@ricktownend9144 Signs towards red line platforms are red, for example. So that works anyway without knowing the language. I must also say that when I follow signs at the bigger tube stations in London I also look more for the colours on the signs than the line names on them. But, this whole concept only works for people who can see all colours and that is where the system with line names like LU has is better. So, the concept of line names and colours like in London combined with the concept of line colours and route numbers like in Stockholm would be a very useful combination in my opinion.
Are you the Olof Lagerkvist who owns LTR Data ? If so, thank you for giving the world ImDisk - it's an excellent piece of software..
@@hb1338 Yes I am, thanks a lot!
Hallo Jago. In Moscow we named our lines mostly because of stations locations. For example line which im using everyday "Kalininskaya line" (Калининская линия).
Back then, Moscow had a district called "Kaliniski" (Калининский), named after a guy "Kalinin" (Калинин). Now this district split into several other districts.
Some lines have names because of their shape, "Koltsevaya/Circle line" (Кольцевая линия ) and "Big Circle Line/Bol'shaya Kol'tsevaya liniya" (Большая Кольцевая Линия/БКЛ).
One thing which is interesting in Moscow is how stations which are served by more than one line have different names for each line. This adds to the excitement of trying to decode the Cyrillic alphabet at high speed !
Great video as always, Jago! The train system here in Boston (the MBTA or just “The T”) uses colors to differentiate between lines (Orange Line, Red Line, etc.) and the different extensions of the Green Line use alpha to denote their destination after they slink off from a last common stop. They exist in relative harmony, despite the lackluster performance record of the system as a whole.
When I went on the Boston subway many years ago it was tiny and there were stations where the trains opened in both sides. Is it still like that?
@@Joanna-il2ur yes, it is largely unchanged. A few of the above-ground stations have been rebuilt to accommodate rapid growth and extension of the Green Line, but on the whole - very much the same.
@@TheAltonEllis there was a station just on the city side on the Charles, inbound from Cambridge, which did surprise me. I didn’t expect them to remain the same, but there’s only so much you can do underground.
Here in Hong Kong, the MTR has names for the lines, like Tung Chung Line or Tsuen Wan Line.
Seeing what you did with the 125 years of Waterloo and City, I for one would love to see more of that longer form stuff, though i appreciate its also more work to create.
We refer to it as The Drain.
That which we call the Central Line
by any other name would screech as much!
So, indeed, there is no point in renaming any line.
Things aren't necessarily simpler elsewhere, either. On the Moscow Metro, lines have numbers AND names. THAT really seems pointless.
You captured it in your closing remarks, for a small number of cases names are much easier to remember than letters or numbers. When it comes to services upon the more complex lines an even better reason is what you mentioned with respect to electronic displays. Passengers don't want a mental lookup table for which number corresponds to which destination. As you probably recall 4SUB, 4EPB stock on the southern region had route numbers, absent any other indication on the train itself as to where it was headed. These disappeared with the first generations of sliding door stock that all had destination blinds. Note in the UK in general where bus routes have a number or number/letter designation there have long been displays of both the destination and principal calling points on destination blinds, as can be seen from your vintage bus footage. Thus any change would achieve precisely nothing.
Good point about the buses. The intermediate calling points list on destination blinds has been an easy way in to using buses in London and many other enlightened cities - you can forget the numbers by and large when travelling about central London at least. The old RT buses in the 1950s and 60s used to have the list on front, back, and by the entrance (where you need it). Dot matrix indicators are not as good as the traditional roller blinds.
Jago: mentions Manchester, Liverpool and his wallet flying out of his pocket.
Me: Jago, Mr Martin Zero might like a word.
It's one of those things where if they were going to give Underground lines a number or letter designation then then they should have done it a century or more ago.
While the lines still have names like the London Underground, Tokyo's subway could be used as an example of what London could consider because they have individual codes for each station on the line such as the Hibiya line giving stops station codes such as H-01, H-02, H-03 etc. Each station still has a name but the codes are useful for quick reference for those who might not know where exactly on the Northern line and it's many branches a particular station is etc.
Vancouver still has names! The Canada Line, Expo Line, Millennium Line. We also have the SeaBus which isn’t a train, but a ferry. TransLink definitely take inspiration from TfL in more ways than one.
More on naming, definitely!
I do hope that when the London overground gets it's individual lines named (if ever) the Goblin line is called the fairy line !! Joking !!
If it became a circular service, it could become the Fairy Ring...
@@MRTransportVideos I believe there are a few of those on Hampstead Heath.
It's okay,I've got all day.
Why - how long dies it take you to make one? #Satire
@@MRTransportVideos Are you sure you got it?
@@simonwinter8839 Yes - a wee bit of comedy never hurts.
Still better than naming after colours. I find naming lines after colours a attempt at creative namingbut giving up half way.
Then just use letter or numbers.
But full names like In London give each line a character.
While I’m used to calling metro-lines as this how it is done here in Frankfurt Germany, I sometimes group them by letters as how w they where planned.
U1, U2, U3 and U8 main truck line was planned as the A-Line and for a couple of years after opening the lines where referred as A1 to A4 (U8 didn’t existed back than and U2 was A2 as well as A4).
U4, U5 are B-Line, U6 and U7 is C-Line. There’s is also a disconnect mess of D-Lines. U4, U8 runs partially on two disconnected part of the D-Line. U9 rubs on the same part as U8 and is considered a D-Line despite running more in A territory without serving the A trunk.
I too refer to some main-line rail lines by name nut number, as they where traditionally called that.
Main-Weser-Bahn, Main-Neckar-Bahn, Riedbahn, Mainbahn, Kinzigtalbahn, etc.
Great video, thank you!
I wonder if we will see a time where lines are sponsored similar to sporting stadiums and concert venues. I hope not.
local tramlink timetables do refer to the normal service pattern as TL1 and TL2 but generally the system is flexible on most passenger routings as one network
Also, Jago, your collection of illustrations from 'Punch' magazine is very impressive 😄
If TfL ever decide to change things, they should give the lines new names just to wind up the type of people who get angry in comments.
The MTA here followed London as separate competing companies. Also had names but changed to a letter/number code over time. So doubt it has to do with age.
A user of the Washington METRO system for nearly thirty years, I find the use of common identification systems such as COLOR can lead to confusion when seeing internet news items that do not apply. For example, I might glimpse an article that says “Blue-line Train Derailment” and think there was a problem on the Washington system, then to go to the trouble of opening a story and realize it was Boston, or Chicago, or, even, Montreal. While it doesn’t effect the riding experience, the color naming reduces the lines’ individuality.
Looking at the poster for the London Underground Electeic Railway, I see they used the strapline swift and sure. Another transport company, Hoverlloyd who oprated a hovercraft service between Ramsgate and Calais called their two SR.N4 hovercraft Swift and Sure.
The Royal Navy combined them with HMS Swiftsure, and so did British Rail with Class 50 no. 50047
Great video, thanks for the answer!
I think Barcelona had some similarities with London regarding urban railways. Let me explain briefly.
The oldest lines of our Metro system were built by separate companies, namely
the Ferrocarril de Barcelona a Sarrià in 1863 (first was broad gauge, then converted to international gauge in 1905 and became underground in 1929),
then the Gran Metropolità de Barcelona "Gran Metro" in 1924 (international gauge, originally running from Catalunya to Lesseps),
and finally the Ferrocarril Metropolità de Barcelona "Transversal" in 1926 (broad gauge, originally conceived to link the mainline termini in Barcelona, originally running from Bordeta to Catalunya).
Then in 1961 the Gran Metro and the Transversal were fused (municipalized) and their lines were given roman numerals... like when the LPTB was formed and they brought all the underground lines together into a single entity. Also I think the Transversal was already municipalized in the late 50s.
The Sarrià line was always independent, until 1977 when it was temporally controled by FEVE (national narrow gauge mainline) because of financial problems and it could have been closed, but in 1979 it was handled to the new Ferrocarrils de la Generalitat de Catalunya. The rest is history.
Funny enough, the Sarrià line is a bit like the Metropolitan line. It is a suburban railway but has urban branches like the Hammersmith and City.
Also there's that service from Plaça Espanya to Molí Nou, they consider it another metro line but that's clearly a pure suburban service and they ruined it because they are so dumb and obsessed to metro-ize everything.
Yes. The London Underground system is considerably older than its counterparts in other countries. And it had a co
Plex coming to be. Had it not been for the LTSB thing would have been much more complicated today. I think it’s nice to have underground lines named rather than numbered as it preserves the history better.
In the Stockholm underground system, founded around 1950 we got numbers instead. But then the numbers pretty much went away and was replaced by colors. Green red and blue lines soon complimented by the new yellow line. This even though all of the lines have branches. The destination boards just show the terminus of the route. No numbers anymore and no colors on the trains. Just on the underground maps
My american cousins from DC came over recently and I couldn’t really answer why we name our lines instead of just using cousins. But now I can use this awesome video!!!!
Now we need a video about the proposals to rename the lines, if any
I like the names, thank you. The Paris Metro confuses the hell out of me. 😁
One way a numbering system could be useful is to help with service patterns to show where trains terminate. So you'd have a big letters and numbers on the front of the train and on the station screens. e.g. N1 = Edgware, N2 = High Barnet N3 = Mill Hill East N4 = Golders Green, etc. Paris takes this to a whole extra level with 4 letter codes where I believe the first digit is the destination, the second is the code for the stops and the 3rd and 4th simply make it a memorable name. So a Barking Riverside all stations train would have a code like RAVA. A Jago Hazard outing to Paris is clearly needed!
I think the actual names have great charm and should be kept and I look forward to the naming of the Overground and DLR very soon.
I'd point out that with the exception of Central and Circle, the first letter of each line is unique within the Underground. If you like naming your lines by colour, I'm pretty sure most Londoners (except those that are colour-blind) could follow along if you talked about the lines by colour, and you could certainly navigate the system that way, since nearly all signs associated with each line also have the colour on them. Sorry to foreigners who don't like our quirky names for each line, but if I'm honest I find an array of letters and numbers and a subway map that is an actual map rather than a neat, orderly diagram very confusing when I visit NYC. Does that mean I think they should change it? - no, it's just the way it is! The NY'ers are used to it, just as Londoners are used to this. I do think it is high time we separated out the routes on the DLR and Overground, as an example, there's 2 DLR lines out of Stratford station, the length of time it took me to look up on which line and platform I'd be heading for when planning a route to London City Airport, was rather frustrating.
Since the Circle Line was changed to run to Hammersmith it now looks like a lasso, so renaming it the Lasso Line solves the first letter problem...
Here in Toronto the powers that be changed the Yonge-University-Spadina line to Line 1, the Bloor-Danforth to Line 2. No one asked for this to be done but it was and here we are. New York City still has the IRT, the BMT and so forth and like London they were built by individual companies.
Here in Newwww England, our American interstate highways have numbered exits. They used to be the order in which you came upon them. Recently, they were renumbered to align with the number of miles from the start of the road, that way you could tell there were 5 miles between exits 7 and 12, for whatever usefulness you find there. But locally, we call them by their local road. I-495 has interchange with Rt 2, then 110, then Great Road rt 119, then Boston Road, then North Road rt 4, then 110 (they cross a lot), then rt 3, etc. Names are far more useful than the number. You miss-speak about exits 7 and 8 but never [this] Hill and [that] Road exits.
I really like that the lines use names instead of letters and/or numbers, really. Honestly way more memorable, distinct, reflective of relevant history and culture, potentially descriptive, and it just gives the lines a real sense of identity overall. Charming too - I'm very fond of the name 'Bakerloo' for instance. A good name rolls off the tongue and stands out as well - even a name that is admittedly questionable by most of the above considerations, 'Jubliee', still certainly *sounds* very good.
Great video!
I myself am just used to the names of the lines & much prefer it to letters .
I remember way back overhearing a staff member @ Paddington underground station helping some international tourists to get somewhere by quoting the line colour instead .
So, I'm from Southern California, which has it's own, bizarre, history of railways. Most recently, LA's MTA had a scheme of using colors to identify the lines: Red, Blue, Green, Gold. Then a pair of (mostly) separated busways were similarly named the Orange & Silver lines. Then a light rail named "Expo" was opened, so named after following Exposition Boulevard for much of its length (itself named after Exposition Park, an agricultural fairgrounds that gradually grew to host several sports venues, museums, and has twice hosted the Olympics). Anyway, all of these nominally-colored routes were recently transitioned to alphabetical letter identifiers, more like New York (buses remain numbered). The primary advantages of this (which I only begrudgingly acknowledge) is that it allows for easier identification of lines across languages (although, come to think of it, most of the time colors are more easy to translate than a Latin-character), along with specificity of branching services (the Red Line's multiple service patterns could easily confuse even locals), and of course to accommodate expansion (did they really run out of colors when they got to "Expo"? After merely Red, Purple, Blue, Green, Silver, Orange, and Gold?).
Oh yeah, and San Francisco just re-branded their BART trains from destination-based identifiers to colors, all while this mess was going on in Los Angeles. Figure that one out.
Your public servant serves you right. I worked in local government for a number of years and the ability of the elected representatives to make a hopeless confusing mess out of a perfectly simple situation beggars belief.
keeping it short, keeping it sweet...another nice one, Jago!
the DC metro internally uses a system like the boring one you're talking about. the public line names are colors, but the track routes themselves are lettered, each individual track is numbered, and stations are numbered sequentially with higher numbers being further from the center of the network. an example is that the A-route runs from A01 (metro center) to A15 (shady grove) and terminates at A99 which is the name for shady grove yard. A1 is the southbound track on the A-route, A2 is the northbound track, and in a few spots there's an A3 when it's 3 tracks wide. this lets you be very granular when you're describing where something is on the railroad. it also lets you give names to things that aren't used by any particular line in revenue service, like the A to C connector. an example service is the blue line, which starts at G05 on the G route, then joins the D route, which becomes the C route at metro center, then follows the J route to J03. it's a nice system that allows every line to be extended without messing the system up. you can also change where the trains go without needing to rename anything. the only oddities are that a few letters are missing because they correspond to something that was planned but never built.
I agree that the names and colours on the maps make sense in a way that letters or numbers don't. However, the biggest confusion at first, and the one that really throws all tourists into melt down is the mess that is the "Northern Line". It is actually at least two lines and provides endless opportunities to really get confused. BTW: If names rather than numbers or letters really makes you angry, you might need to look at your social life.
Trains serving Morden branch should be called The Southern Line. A throw back to City and South London Line.
I lived in London for ten years, now Madrid, where the lines are either described by their number or colour. I much prefer the names on the tube, easier to remember and more natural (although that might not be the case for foreigners in London with strange names like "bakerloo").
But colour may bring its own problems - just in Europe there are many different language versions of colour names, and in Asia even more ...
When first opened, it ran from Baker Street to Waterloo Station.
@@Joanna-il2ur obviously, but a visitor doesn't know that so it just sounds silly.
I love the names of the tube lines. It give the line much more "personality", and makes it easier to distinguish them. I wish more cities would name their lines.
Also, from tfl's point of view, it makes people wonder why the names are the way they are, I.e. The tube stays in people's head maybe just a little longer - which is publicity.
The Northern Line is the one where the origin of the name is most mysterious. It just seems to have emerged at some point, so a future video on that would be a good one 😁
I'll second that. It was the "Morden - Edgware line" until as late as summer 1937. Presumably the renaming, apart from standardizing on single-word names, was also to reflect the Northern Heights project then in development.
I could be late adding this, but the NYC subway was as well started by multiple companies over multiple decades. It too has named routes like the Lexington Avenue line, and the Sea Beach line, but, it has been able to code itself with letters and numbers.
[The reason for both is one of the original companies dug their tunnels nerrower then normal and now equipment can't be shared]
In Sydney, all our lines have had names, usually but not always after the physical railways that carry them (North Shore & Western, Northern, Airport & East Hills etc, the latter I shall refer to as A&EH). The ones not named after the physical lines tend to be geographically named (Southern Highlands, Blue Mountains, Central Coast & Newcastle, Inner West & South).
Since 2013 every line was also numbered: The North Shore, Western & Northern were grouped into the T1, the South, Inner West and A&EH became T2… in all we got 7.
In 2017, the big conglomerate lines got split up to their pre-2013 status: The A&EH became its own thing and was numbered T8, whilst the Northern Line became T9. With one exception, the others have stayed as is.
There is no longer a T6: The Carlingford Line was closed in 2020 to convert it to Light Rail.
In 2013, our other transport systems also got numbered: The ferries became F1, F2, F3 etc. (up to F10 now) whilst the Light Rail became the L1 (since joined by L2 & L3). The buses were not numbered B1, B2 etc. and kept their original route numbers (of which there are heaps), which is simpler but means a Bananas In Pyjamas reference can’t be made. Are you thinking what I’m thinking B1? Probably not B2; because you don’t exist!*
In reality, nobody really uses the numbering system: The F1 is still very much the “Manly Ferry” and the T1 is still the “North Shore & Western Line”. I prefer the names; it’s more fun than just numbers or letters.
*There is a B1 express bus route from the Northern Beaches to the city known colloquially as “B-Line”, a branding it since adopted. But it doesn’t have a B2 twin or wear its night clothes permanently; it is yellow though…
What you said about "inherently less confusing" there is nothing intrinsically obvious/right about letters/numbers. (Although would Duke Ellington's "Take the A Train" work with named lines...?). Also, alphanumeric systems imply logic (eg numbers accross and letters up) good luck fitting eg the Met into that.
I agree with the Docklands Light Railway to have route numbers. Which would make it bit easier for commuters who want to go on the DLR.
DLR Line 1-Stratford-Lewisham/Canary Wharf
DLR Line 2-Bank/Tower Gateway-Canary Wharf/Lewisham
DLR Line 3-Bank/Tower Gateway-Beckton
DLR Line 4-Bank/Tower Gateway-Woolwich Arsenal
DLR Line 5-Stratford International-Beckton
DLR Line 6-Stratford International-Woolwich Arsenal
Some cities use colors instead of letters or numbers. The colors of course correspond to the signage of each line. Such as in Boston. Also in Charlotte, NC, where I live. Although there's only one line at the moment (the Blue Line). At some point in the future when there's funding for it, a Silver Line and Red Line is supposed to be added.
In Toronto the lines used to have names based on the streets they ran under/ alongside, Such as the Young Line, Bloor line, etc. It was easy to know where they were going and which line would be appropriate for a journey. Now the have the completely unhelpful identification of a number. Line 1, Line 2 etc convey no idea of where the run, or even whether they are North/south or east/west.
I wonder when they stopped being referred to as 'railways' and started being referred to as 'lines'. With the inception of the LPTB?
Well, I use that as my personal cut-off point.
"Line" seemed to be being used (for the Bakerloo and Piccadilly at any rate) in the the UERL or whatever it is (UREL? ULEZ?) poster illustrated
I must confess that, when visiting the Paris Metro, I like the numbers because I already have to remember the name of the correct terminus and the name of the station where I must get off or transfer. Another name would be a bit of a strain on my memory. The London Underground works out for me too, but probably only because my English is better than my French.
Still, I think that it is more important for a city to keep local traditions alive than to use a foreigner's perspective like mine.
An investigation into the naming of the Circle Line would be most informative thankyou.
Brixton plstforms have been completely redecorated since opening, so have the Victoria Line platforms at Warren Street and Victoria. All the glass-illuminared sugns have been removed, exceot at Pimlico (and Hatton Cross on the Piccadilly Line). There's also an out of use one at Moorgate, at least there was when I last looked !!😂
There are quite a few railway lines which have a certain name (in fact, almost all of them are part of the railway network proper) but named services are practically unheard of in Germany (nieche examples exist but the exception proves the rule) and it's typical to use a prefix (if there is any and busses and trams typically don't) + a number to denote service patterns instead.
All National Rail services in the UK have route numbers. They are used in the timetables but not very much anywhere else.
Named bus services have included Shoplinker , Airbus , Green Line, Red Arrow , Superbus/Stevenage Bus, (some of which carried a form of route letter/number or route number to differentiate routings. ) We are now getting Superloop
Hi J. Your videos are always interesting, so more, more, more!
I'm in favour of names, as long as it's clearly understood that "Circle Line" means "Used to be circular only in a topological sense but now it's not even that Line".