IMO the most important skill for being in a static is the ability to maintain a positive attitude. Once negativity starts people start not wanting to be there, this becomes a big problem when your doing any content requiring endurance (a whole savage tier or ulti). Though I would be lying if I said I'd never vented frustrations to friends in a different call after raid time.
Preach! This is exactly what turned around our group from wanting to stop after m2s to being at brithday cake this late in the tier. Yes, we are casual raiders, but I love my static and we try our best to understand each other to progress.
yeah, soft skills are the most important thing in a static. Being generally pleasant and able to consistently show up on time are the best traits to be able to complete the tier. As soon as people start having to wait around for a fill in PF, morale tanks and the more people dread raid time and less likely to show up, death spiral effect. someone's DPS being low can be fixed with practice, but you can't fix asshole.
That Yuweyawata experience reminded me about a Dead Ends run I once had through mentor roulette. I was tanking with three first timers. It was obvious none of them knew the dungeon, so we wiped quite a lot. But not once did I thought about leaving. I decided to help them however I can, and after 50 minutes in that one dungeon, we eventually cleared. It felt so good to help those three clear that one dungeon, I consider it one of the best experiences I've had in this game.
I feel like the toxicity surrounding chaotic isn't new. These are the attitudes that have prevailed in organized play for a long time now, we just get to see it writ large because of the axing of entire alliances and the concentration of salt from 24 players. While moments of frustration are human and understandable, that's different from treating your fellow players as if they're servers at a restaurant. Phrases such as "you're wasting my time" or "you aren't meeting expectations" and so on highlight how transactional the entire community is. Being so goal focused and mercenary, like you mentioned, leads to players giving each other less respect and saps the fun out of challenging content.
Friends and community were the heart and soul of older MMOs as you said. Modern MMO design, and 14 in particular, has pushed solo play above cooperative play to the detriment of the reason people played these games in the first place. 14 has also turned the entirety of endgame content into doing a perfect synchronized dance with 7+ other players. I think this style inherently promotes negativity between people who learn quicker than others. I wish more endgame was designed like Delubrum Savage or Baldesion Aresenal. Both of them are by far the most fun I've had in 14. They are difficult, but absolutely do not require every single person to do every single mechanic perfectly, but instead promote the group as a whole to do their jobs reasonably well.
Solo content and the call for it is a symptom, not the source of the problem. The community itself and the lack of policing it is the source. People were more friendly and patient in the past which is why people were generally more cooperative and willing to play together in group content with strangers even if it's not the tippy top end of it. Crap communities will always necessitate solo content because the alternative is a dead game.
Im glad Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen came out to EA. After almost a year in FF14 and completing the msq, its just completetly boring. The 4 man dungeons are all boring, with basically just speedrunning it. No communication besides hi and bye. I have both games running, with Pantheon giving me my MMO fix and FF14 as just a chat room with the FC. I havent done extremes or savage. Because the gear upgrades arent worth it and the stress. Youre only in there for cosmetics and mounts. Not worth it to me. I have more fun with dailies in normal trials, a-raids, n-raids, and 4man dungeons. Bozja is pretty decent but it gets pretty boring after a while. Eureka, I just started and its already getting boring. My FC is the only reason ive stayed subbed to the game. Helping sprouts with msq dungeons is fun. Otherwise I would of unsubbed looong ago. Again, Pantheon is more of an MMO than FF14. I came from the old school MMOs like EQ, EQ2 and P99. FF14 feels lifeless without a FC.
A lot of your points made in this video is why I don't tank or heal. No one has fun in instance content,it's all just "get to the end as fast as possible". I want to learn the roles,but I can't just toss myself in,I learn better when people aren't ripping you a new one.
You'll be perfectly fine in dungeon content to learn those roles. Normal raids are fine too. People are pretty receptive if you're in those brackets. Going above that is where you will and should be expected to perform.
@@DragonWolf69 If you're in a learning party and people are complaining at you for failing the stuff they're progging on, that's 100% toxic I agree. If you're messing up earlier stuff than what the group is targeting then complaints aren't really toxic. Unfortunately there are a good bit of toxic people from the former. A large chunk of people also fall into the latter and just pass that off as learning. That's called prog lying and is another big problem with high end content.
@@DragonWolf69I could give you some basic guide line for Tanking, if you would be rly interested in it. Im a tank main for very long now,and once you got comfortable with it,it’s by far one of the best and fun things to do( personal experience)
@DragonWolf69 weird. I've never recieved toxicity for my healing or tanking. The very rare toxicity that I sometimes see are almost always from the tank or healer to the dps.
One of my philosophies for life is, leisure time is supposed to be fun. If something is neither fun, nor necessary for some other reason, go do something else. A little bit of frustration or annoyance can lead to greater fun down the line, but where the line stand is by the individual. I know most of FFXIV toxicity is concentrated in high end duties. Savage, Ultimates, sometimes Extremes and now Chaotic. If toxicity goes too off the handle, I do something else. That's also why it took me so long to decide and give Savage a try. Because I no longer have the energy or patience to endure party drama over irrelevant stuff. Luckily, like you, I found a good team to prog this tier. Not sure if we will stick together for the next tier. We will decide after we get our circle bikes. 😊
I made a big mistake recently that could've easily been avoidable if I was more mindful of my attitude, no matter how I felt about the attitude of others. The damage is done but really wish I did a better job of being more considerate. For a game where we are constantly forgiving others in the story, we really could take a step back and learn from that. Just like with you chaotic video I'm impressed how well you get points across. Super good video reminding everyone how we can make the raiding environment a better place for everyone. Somewhere where people actually feel encouraged to PUG more! Wishing your dog and your sleep well.
Sadly we learn the hard way. I made a few mistakes just after my divorce and ended up pushing certain people away, then I lashed out at others because of something stupid. I had a good thing going, was in my first static and up to the 3rd fight in 2 weeks, in an fc with 300 people and was well liked. Threw all that away and now I can't get back into the game for more than 6 months at a time
I'm someone who helped people clear TOP a lot in pf, and my attitude is that the real treasure was the people I met along the way. Goals are nice to have, but content and raids come and go and ultimately it's just a video game. But the attitude you cultivate in that journey reflects who you are, and that is more important than a video game achievement in my opinion. As a bonus, you'll have more fun too when you start finding like-minded people who are nice and chill but also strives to get better at the game so you don't waste other people's time. It's always good to remember that there is a real person behind the screen All that being said though, there are definitely some people who consistently have bad attitude, and/or refuses to get better and for those I just use blacklist. They are definitely a minority though - I've been helping people do savage since asphodelos and can only remember a very few people that have that attitude, at least in Materia. Most people just need a little bit of encouragement, help and patience!
And the problem is the people you meet along the way are usually gone within 12 months, due to boring content, jobs being boring af until level 60, the post arr marathon is still too much and people give up. Then high end players just get bored and go play other games never to return. It's honestly painful making new friends every 6 to 12 months because 75% of people just bail, the whole point of an mmo is to have fun with other people and the fun is gone from this game
I agree with almost all of your points. Up until about a year ago, my main game used to be League of Legends. I played the ranked game mode exclusively, and I got super competitive about it, basically tying my whole enjoyment of the game to whether I'd win or lose. It genuinely made me a worse person, I'd get super angry at teammates that would underperform in my eyes, I said things in chat that I'd be mortified to hear from my own mouth in any other situation and I was just not having any fun, losing would put me in a bad mood for the whole rest of the day. I finally quit and started playing FFXIV, which I had dabbled in before, I started Dawntrail about a week ago, it's been so much fun. But anyway, the point I'm trying to make is this: The same way that only caring about winning or losing in league made me unhappy, the same thing is true in FFXIV if you only care about clearing or not clearing. As soon as you stop enjoying the process and only focus on the end result, you're entering a seriously unhealthy relationship with the game. I really think that if you notice this thought coming up in your head, that you're only playing to clear, for the grind, whatever, not for the enjoyment of the game itself, you just need to take a step back and take a break, even if it's hard. Because otherwise you start treating the game like work. You wouldn't, say, force yourself to finish reading a book just because you feel like you absolutely have to. It's fine, put it away, come back later, or don't. And I gotta say, even though there's drama in every community, compared to league, the FFXIV playerbase is a petting zoo. In general, FFXIV players rock.
As a sprout just starting endwalker I don’t ever see myself being able to do this kind of content. I started out so late and have absolutely no experience in any hard content, compared to all the vets with tons of experience still facing troubles. Older extremes and easier encounter are no longer relevant which prevents practicing on fights with incremental difficulties.
I honestly think current ex trials are a great place to start. Theyre mechanically similar to savage but usually a lot more forgiving/recoverable (hits that would kill you in savage dont in extreme), and they also dont have super difficult dps checks. You dont need a static for it and most of them you can prog and clear in a weekend (ngl I cleared the first ex for DT in like, an hour and a half iirc lol).
Yeah as I usually tell new players to the game, "remember EVERYONE was a scrub at some point early in the game. YOU WERE NOT BORN ELITE. We all had to crawl before we could walk." Good manners can get you far. Being a horses 🍑 will get you nothing but ignored.
Wiping is inevitable, some people need refreshers, some people are swapping positions, some people cleared for the first time a few minutes ago and are still a bit shaky, whatever it is. The gear does not matter if you're not having fun. Whatever it is you're doing, have fun while doing so. Joke around, communicate, people are usually quite nice and fun once they talk.
its so true. with so many people in one group, you cant have people go ballistic. there needs to be more patience. Attitude can take you miles or set you back even more
I'm a tank main, and I understand that frustration is part of being human. And when I get frustrated, I'm not going to be the one who blames the group or an individual who's performing poorly, instead i'll get up, stretch my legs, go to the kitchen and drink some water, doing those steps is usually enough to calm my nerves and i'll be ready to go again after that. But as a tank, I can usually save a bad situation, most of the time I don't have to rely on anyone else, and that's what I really enjoy about tanking, so the frustration rarely gets to me anymore, because I've learnt to deal with my short comings, and I also don't have to care too much about the others, i'll let them be and learn in their own pace, call it tank privilige if you want, but for me it's a way to show new players how to deal with a set of mechanics.
This is also true for work. Toxicity and passive aggresive, sarcastic comments can roll like a river sometime. In a video game like FFXIV, there is always something to run to and do, and it would help alot if folks take a moment before starting group content and doing a MH check for themselves. Take some breaths and chill. Also, a trigger phrase for me is, "if I can do it you can do it to". Ugh, some of us don't know everything because we are into other content, games, etc. Getting to max level is garbage easy with daily roulettes which have next to zero value for learning full rotations in context of difficult content.
honestly I am so glad when I decided to do difficult content I joined a static where the ethos is be kind, be patient, help people learn the mechanics if they dont know them, and if its a clear part we'll do a few runs if we need to cause thats just how it is sometimes. I do tank in savage and some of my PF experiences have been terrible but a lot of others have been great, I try not to think too poorly of anyone unless they give me a reason too (emphasis on try, sometimes I have a bad try and its really hard)
Asking for consent before giving advice is the #1 thing that prevents misunderstandings and defensive barriers from happening. Jaded gamers are used to being yelled at and so they don't think twice about giving a complete stranger the business even if they think they're trying to be helpful. As said, the random teammate might be doing bad for a number of reasons that they're not obligated to share with you so you getting frustrated and telling them what you think they should do is only going to cause friction especially if they do know what they're supposed to do and their bad performance is because of something else. When the FF14 TOS guidelines were changed a while back, gamers playing in the western regions got all up in a huff about the language that said blunt commands could be a valid reason for reporting for toxicity. That was a culture clash because they're all used to being told what to do and think that's a normal thing whereas on the JP servers because of the general Japanese tendency to approach conflicts with strangers indirectly, they don't tend to do that. Instead of just bluntly telling your random duty finder tank to turn on their stance if you notice they're not pulling aggro properly, they would couch it in terms of an ask. "Is your tank stance on?" instead of "Turn your tank stance on." Little things like that make a big difference.
Thankyou so much for talking about this. Ur experiences mirror my own, these toxic fuckers need to learn that they create their own problems. I made 100% more mistakes in those parties than I did in the chil ones. I have over 70 kills and just do it for fun, I recently hid my logs because I don't want people spying on them but even after getting every mount and reward (including wisp) and I get kicked a lot because I hid them. I sadly got a rep for "making mistakes" and now I get kicked from 99% of parties cause my logs are hidden or sm1 who was in a toxic party with me saw me fuck up and called me out which only makes my adrenaline shoot up and I make 100x more mistakes cause my fight or flight is active and I'm paranoid ill get dog piled. I got completly dog piled in 1 party after a small error (forgot my alliance and missed 1 hit from the beam) and it was so horrible ppl were screaming "get her out, get the troll out" I had this lovely tank he kept tryna calm me down and we killed next pull. Those toxics insta left and the tank said well done. At first I thought he was belittling me " well done for not fucking up" but now I realize he meant "well done for comming back from that dark place" My bl has shot up since this and sadly ive started seeing a dark side to this community. I tried to talk about it on the forums made a thread called "Chaotic pf toxicity" and the first thing they did was find my logs and dog piled me for parsing grey, they said I didn't deserve to play. Demanded I dl add ons to play for me and even doxxed me for being a moddef all cause I tried to show what was happening
The best static I have ever been in, we called ourselves the clown car. The only reason I am not running with them these days, is because I was taking time off the game.
Its not a matter of passing something in one day or even a week it's about having fun and making good memories with others who love the game as much as you do.
I just remind myself that it is just a game, and expect the other players just to their best. There are certain dungeons I struggle with, and there are dungeons I have no problem at all. Yet, there more important things in life than gaming. At times, it is what is and you will have to go with the flow, but I never want other players to apologize to me if they make a mistake. I do not think the NPC is going to care either way.
This is part of why i avoid raid content besides Alliance or Normal Raid because of the fact toxicity can quite happen in much harder content and that if you spend five to ten minutes every time you wipe, you get tired out. When exhaustion of the mind comes into play, that's when toxic like behavior can slip in without you knowing it. I much prefer to mentally keep my peace of mind and more importantly be myself then let a game become not fun and i get sick and tired of something. It can be insufferable at that and if i can avoid becoming something like that, then wonderful, its a reward in itself for keeping myself in check.
I feel as though I'm never going to get a chance to do chaotic now. I've been gone for a while, taking a break to play other games, and now everyone is way ahead of me in terms of tackling this content. A lot of people have already gotten clears and are onto farming it now, or if they haven't cleared, they're at least knowledgeable to some degree and have tried it many times. I feel like I missed the train. I haven't played it at all, and know nothing about the mechanics. This is the first time in all my years of playing that I've let myself get behind on content like this, and now it just feels awkward to try to jump in SO late and ask anyone to accommodate me while I learn from scratch. ESPECIALLY after all the stories I've heard about how unbelievably toxic the whole scene has been compared to other content.
I would recommend joining the Radar discord. They have mentioned putting together learning runs for new players, and they try to keep the environment positive. This might be a good place for you to start c: discord.gg/qbcad5C8GC
I’m a casual. Running into “you’re max level so you should be capable” as an attitude has been incredibly demoralising. I like to feel comfortable with content before I inflict my casual skill on others. Getting snide comments about my skill in EW dungeons and then running into a wall of people basically saying “you suck because you think DT is hard” doesn’t do anything to help feel better about it. Which is to say that toxicity in the community has just grown with DT, and tbh in the world at large. So, I have come to the realisation that the best response is “be kind”. Which is I think the summary of your message.
Groups like you were stating is kind of the reason why I don't want to try learning and clearing the Chaotic anymore. Hell, even in a couple of Beginner PFs for me to learn made me distance myself from continuing to try. It's saddening.
Very good video im half blind person and ii see like 40% from other eye and when i play tank or healer even dps ans alot ppl they are toxic to me sometimes even when i tell them for ky disability some even say to me if u cant see dont play the game now i do rullets only with friends in scare to que for dangeon or raid :(
The reason why I completely skipped Chaotic ,it’s not an environment I would like to raid in. I clear ultimates done savages all criterion,and I have to say less player content is best content xD Criterion with 4 players only made it one of my best experiences so far,Chaotic in the other hand 24 man pf toxic prog was a pain x)
Reflecting inwardly is always a good thing. Therapy will always tell you that you can't control other people's actions, only your own. YOU can do something to make the situation better, it just requires fighting your instinct to rage and instead channel that energy into a remark that is actually productive and improves the atmosphere of the situation.
You are 100% right about the chaotic. I just got the clear like 3 days ago. Every clear party had some sort of toxic chat or just plain mean. Sometimes groups don’t get it after 3 pulls, no reason to rage quit and say “this is the worst party I’ve played with you guys suck”. PF is crazy.
As a savage/ultimate raider, I did Chaotic for exactly one day to see what it was all about and it was stressful but fun. But before I could go back, there were forum posts, Discord chats and TH-cam videos crying to high heaven about how toxic and frustrating it was that I never gave it a second run. Just going to wait until it becomes outdated content and I can ilvl cheese it for easy rewards because the mounts just aren’t worth putting up with certain parts of this community. I am sure I’m not alone in that sentiment and this is why the PFs take forever to fill. They bring it on themselves.
Unfortunately, some people forget that FF14 and MMOs are still videogames. It's primary functions are entertainment and escapism. The moment you start treating it as a job means it's no longer fun for you.
-Be positive -Be Friendly -Have a good attitude ->Otherwise STFU and GTFO! This is a non-toxic pf.🤣🤣 My favorite activity after mastering a piece of content is to work with others to help them master it as well. I love helping fellow tank mains overcome their "tank-xiety". I love the chaos resulting from failing in funny ways where we can laugh together. I don't understand the point of joining a random PF group just to go MLG on them in the most uncompetitive game. Just relax and have fun. No one starts as a pro. Everyone fails miserably or makes a mistake at one point or another.
I don't have an issue with the learners. I have a problem with people joining clear parties or farm parties when they're not ready. There's learning parties. Go get practice. It's okay! The content will still be there when you're done.
Anything in this game is possible, with patience and time. Unfortunately, they are rare traits these days. If you find a group that gels with you, take care of them friends. After the recent interviews from Mr. Ozma, its safe to say things will become more fun for NA Party finder. Remember, if the game is burning you out, take a break.
Setting expectations isn't toxic. You letting ppl know what vibe you're wanting is healthy. The only way things turns toxic is if you go back on those established expectations. If you say "Chill run no salt" It better be chill and no salt and if it's "Know your stuff and lock in" it better not be a c41. At the end of the day though it's never that serious. You have a bad experience block and move on, we're blessed that the chances you ever see that person again is low & just move on and continue doing your own thing
My purpose was not to suggest that those expectations were toxic, so I'm sorry if it came off that way. Moreso that chaotic made ME personally a lot more serious and less patient than I think I've ever been in this game. Because I went from someone afraid of those "know your stuff" parties to someone making them. I wasn't trying to say that they were ACTUALLY toxic, only that they intimidated me and I had a fear that they would be. As for the reality (at least in regards to chaotic since outside of chaotic i never really joined these kinds of parties), some of them ARE toxic, and some of them aren't. But that's true for most chaotic parties anyway.
The explanation she has, isn't that these parties are toxic, but the attitude people bring into them often do make them an incredibly unpleasant experience. Having a clear party with a rotating door of people is disheartening - even for someone like me who joins these to help others. If anything, the parties/farms where I've had the most clears are the ones where folks go in chill.
I don't think she said expectations are toxic. However, going overkill on how you enforce these expectations can be. Removing people over a few mistakes is never going to be a better experience unless you have a strong reason to believe that the next prog is not going to go better. Especially if you are running content that you wish to clear once and not 10+ times in a row, people are going to be making mistakes. The example she gives where people remove others at basically every mistake will just create an environment where, not only are you making no progress because you keep removing people who have just learned from their mistakes and replacing them with players who haven't, but you also add stress on top of that where everyone is trying to blame each other in an attempt to "survive." I do not think it can be better, unless your point actually is to clear the content many times in a row and you are only expecting people that has farmed it many times in the past already.
@ I 100% agree with you. With that being said it's also incredibly unrealistic to expect people to play how you (or I) personally enjoy. That was my point. It's naive to think that 8-24 people are all going to gel together. If you don't like how a party lead is running the party you can just leave. Nothing is keeping you there. That's what I'm saying about setting expectations. As long as it's clear to everyone what they are joining into I don't see the problem.
@ I fail to see how being more serious and less patient is a negative. Unless you are taking it upon yourself to teach other people you (as a player) do not owe your time to others. People naturally will be more serious to things that they care or have a higher level of investment into. By the sounds of it you really wanted to prog Chaotic and were looking for like-minded individuals. You setting your expectations of "please respect my time" is nothing to feel guilty for.
Body Check Alliance Raids will always be a risky activity for both developers and players. Unfortunately with the PF centered community that Western players have to deal with; time will be required, and in the western world where time is considered money and life many people will be rightfully irritable that their time is being squandered by the activity itself. I think it'll be important for Square to take this one on the chin, and see how they can revise this aspect of Alliance Raids.
A positive attitude even if things go downhill really is the best way to succeed. In my old static we had a guy who would mercilessly flame everyone. Maybe not right away but he had a talent to drag down morale. Which was the reason the static broke down eventually. You can call it "toxic positivity" all you like, in the end its always better to just put up a brave face and pretend that things arent as bad than doom-saying everything. There is a thing called "self-fulfilling prophecy", and trashing your group members, threatening them, isnt helping anyone. And yes, thats the reason I wont set foot into Chaotic. I have enough problems with a single jerk in an 8-man group, let along several in a 24-man group. And sadly I dont have time anymore to spend my evenings wiping - whether its with fun people or not.
Positivity, attitude, etc., i think its all just a balancing act. Certain feelings will just come up from situations or group atmospheres whether you want them to or not, but if you can recognize those feelings when they show up it's empowering. You're absolutely right about taking a break; you can decide if it's really worth getting upset over, you can decide if you can continue in that group, or if its best to just stop and come back to it later, it'll still be there when you come back!
I'm a C4X helper in all the Ultimates, and while I'm not perfect, I try to be. The main thing I try and bring is positivity. There's a lot of vitriol an Venom in the high-end Clear/Reclear community, that every little bit of kindness goes a long way. Stay strong out there in PF
Raiding brings the worse in people. The "friendly community" mask gets off at the 3rd wipe. Doesn't help that PF is an archaic system that do not even has scheduling. So you end up waiting a lot. Only to wipe 3 times and everyone leaving. Of course everyone will be pissed off. I play games to relax, not to be stressed out. I have real life to get stressed out and at least in real life I get paid to do so. Makes no sense to add stress for absolutely nothing.
goes both ways, it's main reason I quit FFXIV I love to join clear groups and help ppl even if we don't clear for 5hours I don't mind it at alll, but just help them progress at least. It's very very enjoyable to me BUT I'm not ok anymore with either playing tuesday morning for savage/hc content or literally need 10x the time to clear in cleargrps cuz 2-3people are constantly unprepared/unfocused simply cause they know they won't get called out anyway. So FFXIV becomes this constant timewaste cycle of wait for 90%, play, disband the entire thing and repeat. Playing TnL rn and ppl cry about toxicity, but this toxicity is miles better than the timewaste you get in FFXIV. I don't want to be stuck in hc content every single week again and again as if it's day1week1 in supposed clear groups week after week for months being forced to play tuesday morning and clear in 1 1/2h or play any other time and need 10h+ is just not ok I feel terrible myself when doing mistakes/being unprepared, no words are more toxic than jailing my party Yet in FFXIV it seems jailing ppl is the standard and saying anything is the worst
Yeah I came back when the New DT quest came out, still working on my 730 gear. I am a pretty good learner and even when i say 1st time, no one takes time to even explain they expect you to somehow already know the fight. And they can be extremely rude, its super disheartening because i'm always so nice and try my best. I'd like to do the games hardest content but now i'm just too worried about people ripping me apart without help expecting excellence my first time.
A positive attitude is absolutely key. That being said, the chaotic fight itself induces toxicity and it's concerning that this content was _supposed_ to be designed for newbies (people who've never done raiding before). I progged the fight for 2 days and just had to stop because I felt the toxicity in myself too. I've since finished learning all three EXs and the first savage fight, and I'm having much more fun.
I've been in 2 party finder extreme groups recently and been doing dungeon roulette on the side and am very new to doing current tier things. I've been maining tank for extremes and I've been in full panic some of the times because when I mess up I get so worried people are going to be really upset with me because I can be so dumb at times. In my first extreme there was someone who was being toxic and they ended up quitting part way through because of me and it didn't feel nice at all. We got a replacement quickly and the new person was incredibly nice and helpful and we ended up clearing the extreme on our second try (ftr we had gotten close several times before that, but I did feel a lot better and confident when people were being nicer.) The second extreme I still have not cleared but I've been playing it with my best friend and he's gotten so insanely good at healing the fight and he's been able to explain mechanics to me as they're happening and actually laughs if I do something goofy like falling off the platform because I forgot gravity and the party we had was also very kind and helpful and patient and i learned a lot about that fight and am very confident we're going to clear soon. The latest dungeon I ran was actually on scholar and I'm still learning scholar, I'm leveling it as I go. This was last night and my internet tanked like crazy while I was in this dungeon and I was panicking because I knew what my abilities did but I keep getting heavensward dungeons when I play scholar... this was a shadowbringers one which meant I had to figure out what a lot of abilities meant on account of I've barely had a chance to use them. And everyone in that group was STILL so kind despite how bad I KNOW I must have messed up. The tank was a sprout but played like a veteran (could be an alt but I'd prefer to think they're a sprout because I think that's neat.) All in all. We have more fun when everyone is and I'm glad I met so many nice people :) I hope the toxicity goes down a bit soon. Thank you for sharing your experience
Building synergy in the group is more important than filtering out players that are less familiar with the fight, especially during prog/clear, it is sad that most pf player don't understand that. Constantly kicking player just destroys the group's synergy and makes clearing the fight impossible.
Im always the one who picks it up fast and consistently executes mechanics, however, due to "raiders" like you described, I refuse to do any Savage+ content since Stormblood, and ive enjoyed playing FF14 so so much more. My opinion is to let those people feed on each other and rage on each other. Cool to hear there are 'happy raiders' but I don't personally believe it exists or are willing to suffer through the rest to find them.
I think a lot of people have forgotten that you can have fun wiping all night. Honestly, I'd have quit a long time ago if I could just put up a pf and one shot everything.
I have a hand issue on both my hands so I do not even dare touch content other than extremes. And I solo extremes alone when new expansions come out so I can be higher level. That was also a reason I have still not finished the main story. I started playing on 2018 and I am at the beginning of Shadowbringers. It really helped that they released the Trust System. My sister does all this content and I watch her when she plays. I have seen her handle many types of people and yeah...I agree...As a person with my problem I am too scared to do all this content or interact with others. Not to shame the FFXIV community, all of you are the sweetest on the most part...but there are people that take it too seriously
When I started playing I was even scared of queuing for actual roulettes so I would overlevel to the point I was allowed by clearing levequests or fates and I would solo the dungeons. I have soloed Sastasha and whichever early RR dungeon did not need more than one person. Otherwise I would ask my sister to clear it together unsynced
Those people that call people out also have been beginners in their role and cannot tell me they never messed up! Even in end game people still need to learn cuz it might be their first time experiencing that raid either as their first job or one of their new ones, shitting on people in general is so easy behind a screen yk
I think that the main issue here is that there's a lot of players that they only raid with their friends which is completely fine but they don't know about how raiding in pf is. PF with random players it's been always toxic, even if you have a lot of patience or you're not toxic, there will be some point where your toxicity will come over to other players. I think what matters it's as well said to realize you were toxic and apologize and try to turn said toxicity into positive energy. I mean i've been raiding with pf since ShB and the toxicity for Savage, ultimates and hard game content has always been there and will always be. Just having a good mindset and positive energy it's all that takes to enjoy :)
I have never understood the appeal of that raiding. It always attracts the worst people, or brings out the worst in you. Good rule of thumb - Never play with a group who doesn't sound like they're having fun. If the people you are playing with sound like they're not playing a game, run as fast as you can. Unfortunately, high performance activities draw out the people who use these activities to measure their own self-worth. So for you it's a game. For them, it's the center of their existance. They will make their problems yours every chance they get. First red flag if this is happening is by asking yourself how often you genuinely smile and laugh together. How often you find yourself complaining together.
In any co-operative objective in life you should be bringing more of your effort to the table than ever. It's just basic respect for other people. People tie their self-worth to high-end raiding not because they love that content in particular, but because they know they're a burden if they don't perform. They expect of others what they feel should be expected of themselves.
@leftunder334 Agreed with the first paragraph 100%. I was only discussing attitude, not effort. Yes, if you agree to be in a group, do the part you signed up for. Putting in effort doesn't require being rude or being stiff or being a jerk. That's the point I am highlighting. Basic respect for other people also means not letting your personal problems spoil the experience. Being a good player, a good party member, also means being able to have fun. You can play your role perfectly with the mechanics god-tier. But if your attitude sucks, you are still a burden to others. Being respectful is a full package. -- Make sure you don't commit to a time where you will be interrupted. --Make sure you are prepared for the activity. If people are relying on you to have certain knowledge and you all agreed about it, yes do that. -- Make sure you are healthy with the game and the people. If you are highly irritable, likely to lash out, or attack them with angry emotional outbirsts, you are just going to hurt morale and a become a burden. A truly good player is one who can keep their cool and stay calm. Everyone has a bad day. If that happens, you take responsibility and apologize and earn the respect back.
@MinecraftMartin I agree with pretty much everything you said, but the usual 3-wipe disband group (for farm here, NOT prog) is giving people enough buffer to make the occasional mistake. Occasional mistakes by themselves are okay. After that 3-wipe point, it's clear that people are prog lying and need to accept they need to go back and get more practice. Just because you've reached engage doesn't mean anything if you were dead. You're not ready yet.
@leftunder334 Yeah nothing special or new with that either. Failure will always be part of the process. It's about how you react to it, and it will never require being negative. If you have a member who is becoming am obstacle to progress for the whole group, talk to them in private and work with them. If you are the type of person who wants to get angry and call them out in front of everyone, you are a now adding yourself to the list of problems with the group. This kind of stuff is so well documented and accessible for anyone who truly values respect. If you need to kick someone, do it as privately and respectfully as possible. If you truly want to respect the people you are playing with, this is how to really prove it. If the person you are kicking is a jerk, let them be the only one being a jerk. Easier said than done, but the effort counts. A bad, disrespectful attitude has killed raiding groups many times over the years!
this is why raiding is killing mmorpgs and has for ages it breed ego and evil within ppl ,that nto to say all raiders are pure egoist or evil but many to many are
I've had lots of people come into my videos and tell me to uninstall the game. the foci community is not as innocent as they claim to be. lots of these people are horrible
Introspection can be really valuable. It's good that you can recognize your own faults, but that's not enough. You have to take steps to improve upon them otherwise the energy you're putting into your hindsight is wasted. So when you admit that you will undoubtedly make the same mistakes again in the future, you're not holding yourself accountable, and it's not fair to the other players your gaming with. When you say, "When I want something, I want it NOW." This is indicative of instant gratification and the constant need for it. This is extremely toxic, and this is quite possibly the biggest reason why you get the way you do. Getting a clear should never be your primary goal. Your goal should be to have fun and enjoy the journey towards getting your clear. This is especially true in prog. Anywho, best of luck to you in your future endeavors. You are indeed human so don't beat yourself up too much over it. But always strive to be a better person.
I think it's interesting and relevant that you see that even though you, with your ego, think you acted in a politically correct way, it doesn't mean that someone didn't feel offended. I find your humor somewhat acidic, not toxic but provocative. I loved seeing your new perspectives, especially regarding Chaotic, I also remember some videos where you mention that you have clears, that you did ultimate, that you are super hyper mega experienced and professional (not exactly like that but you implied that it was that way) but that doesn't distance you from mistakes, we are all human beings in the end. Also your voice... my god what a perfect voice you have, sometimes i just open one of your vids, give a like and enjoy your voice.
I generally don't mind other people making mistakes, but I'm very harsh to my own mistakes. I am certain that by now I should just be doing everything right and when I fail to meet that expectation, I feel I should just uninstall the game and never try again. Some players reinforce that feeling, some players try to be encouraging, but most people don't say anything and that makes it easy to think that they share my negative sentiment against myself
Chaotic was the first raid that ever made me toxic in the game. I'm very toxic in real life, but in the game, I'm usually always nice, even in ultimate pf.
I'm the worst at this but I just try to stay quiet if I'm upset. I'm a whitemage main so sometimes I just get stressed out and frustrated. BUT I don't say anything because I don't like bringing other people down specially when there's so much I can do better. Though when I'm upset I seem to like radiate a quiet passive aggressiveness I guess 😅 My perspective is - You pick people up instead of kick them when they are down. (Even if DEEP down I want to be a kicker it's not right)
The toxicity in Chaotic is justified. If I join a group advertised as a bramble/swap party and we're wiping at the start of P2 on towers I'm not going to waste my time.
its not toxic to decide you want to leave or feel like it's a waste of time. Been there. But it IS toxic to start aggressively calling people out or making snide remarks. Silently dropping and moving on isnt toxic.
@@Aitherea Yeah I don't do that. I just dip after 5 wipes in a row at the same spot since I already know this isn't going anywhere. Though depending on who you are, that is considered Toxic.
you cant scale difficult content to that many people or it just gets either extremely toxic or extremely exclusive because the avg player is just simply not good. It's like doing Sunwell in WoW TBC, it was absolutely miserable because of how easily 1 idiot could wipe the other 24 people. Chaotic is no different.
I just avoid high end content and thats like all i have left to do but it feels like everyones a vet and doesnt have time for people learning they all get so angry and now im burning out on not having much to do so i guess thats my own fault but ff has been a really fun ride
There was one time I was doing this week one; all the progression I was doing was in Primal (since at the time I wanted to show Primal more support). I was lucky to get very far and clear on Primal on day 3. On day 2, I went to Aether to try to get a clear, but I ended up getting kicked out after one pull (not a few or 10+ pulls). I got kicked out of a PF in Aether just from one pull because I grew a muscle memory that I was not supposed to have because one of the people in my party was not adjusting and moving towards me for stacking, and I just kept getting killed. At that point, that was when I started to move in since the other person was not doing what they were supposed to do, and that got carried to the next PF I joined, which was in Aether. When it was time to stack in the tile phase, me and the tank moved into the same tile and fell through. They started to put ??? in the chat, and I mentioned to the person about the last PF situation I had to deal with. What I stated earlier was that in this PF, I (as the healer) and the tank stepped on the same tile; the fact that person left just after *ONE PULL*, and I got kicked out of a party for that was enough for me to stay out of Aether and focus on getting my clear in Primal, which I did. After I cleared, I remember how much of a pain it was getting a clear in PF and why I stopped raiding.
I've had the best time with raids, the ones I have done are admittedly only from ARR and Heavensward because that's all the further I've yet gotten, but every time, there was at least one person in them explaining it and usually as a tank, the other tank asking me to switch when tank switching is necessary. Contrast dungeons, I hate running dungeons with other players because when I'm doing ones I don't know, I always, always get one jerk who has done it several times harassing me for not knowing mechanics or the layout or failing to pull because my level is synched and I don't have something that will help with pulling, whatever. Watching this, I get where they're coming from now, but at the same time, I don't know it and NPCs when Duty Support is available and my one friend who has been playing significantly longer than I have don't judge.
I find it incredibly ironic that after endwalker, an expansion very much shoving it in your face that giving in to despair and hopelessness is not an option and that you should always hold out hope until the end, the community feels so fatalistic now that people just like giving up on teaching new players. If you don‘t have maximum itemlevel, don‘t even attempt the fight, if you haven‘t seen enrage, how do you even expect to clear, if you cannot fill a party on your datacenter in 15 minutes, just hop over to the bigger datacenter and poach people there. I know endwalker gets a lot of shit for its story, but the theme of even in the face of unfathomable despair believing in a better future and doing your damndest to reach it seems lost when I join a partyfinder for practice that disbands after three wipes on the mechanic they were practicing
awww. Well sometimes it's both about practice and having people there to help you! There's so much I learned about this game from *other* players that I would never have figured out otherwise c:
@Aitherea I've been trying to get into Savage raiding starting with M1 Savage. I've gotten through about 2/3 of the fight in practices and thought I knew those portions well, but the majority of PF groups I get into inevitably ask me if I even know the fight at all. :/ I also don't really have much in the way of in-game contacts to lean on, so it's mostly PF.
I havent cleared the Chaoritc raid yet for this exact reason. Im not a very confrontational person and try to do my absolute best to stay on everyone's good side, but the constant waiting after just 2 or 3 pulls or even if we did just wiping because a few key players arent figuring it out make for an environment where there's not really any patience left and parties just fight n break up repeatedly. It's uncomfortable enough doing weekly savage reclears on pf; 3 times the amount of people seem to just make this too miserable to really feel like any of the rewards are worth going through that.
I made the decision to quit farming chaotic not because it was too hard or even because of the toxicity of other players. I quit because it was turning me into a toxic player. This fight is the pinnacle of everything I hate about the way high end content is designed in FF14. Dying because some else made a mistake is frustrating. Dying to a 0.1% hard enrage that the whole team struggled so hard for is infuriating. If the devs insist on only making high end content that brings out the worst in me and makes me a worse person, then I will be forced to quit the game entirely. And with the recent interview with the lead battle designer saying that he considers extremes to be casual content, I am for the first time, worried about the future of the game.
Nowadays everyone I meet seems to play as a speedrunner, while I play the same way I played those Squaresoft classic FF games. I like to look around as I go through a dungeon, I like sightseeing, smelling the flowers, taking my time, joke around and maybe get to know my team mates better. Why are you guys in such a hurry? Where are you going?
That how it was for me on m3s the group i was with we saw enrage like 5 times and before we disbanded we talked and cheered each other on and I ended up in a group we wiped 3 times shook off the conwebs and we ended up clearing no salt needed just encourage. We called out members to help encourage them, we made sure to show examples incase ppl were confused and we finally cleared it was cool.
thanks for sharing. I was going to say - this will change nothing, but... trying to have a good attitude, maybe this will make the world just a little bit brighter, and that's a great thing.
ive been invited to a couple statics this expansion by just randomly walking around interacting with random people, ive turned them all down because i just dont like to risk the chance of being the reason some people wont clear. doesnt stop them from asking me to raid with them, but its something that i wanna do just to have fun while doing it, not hardcore day in day out planned out raids
I came back not too long ago after a very long break and the first thing I've also noticed is how much more judgemental people have gotten. Before when there was sprouts there was endless patience or people at least didn't say anything. These days? The opposite. Had actually today two bad runs in a roll in roulette, first a trial - it was cute, half of it was sprouts and first timing it and yeah it took three times but who cares? They really did try and followed every advice. Some of the more experienced ones got a bit impatient and wanted to abondon the duty and the off tank rage quit. Okay, they were fully in their right to leave. But the abondon votes were really not necessary. Right after in a raid roulette I get a real d*ck of a whm. The guy literally flamed on an old Alex raid because we wiped once as people didn't know about portals as they've only ever done it unsynced. Jesus. That was something
I don't take Chaotic Personally, I just focus on my task and how to optimize my performance as a healer. That's where most of my enjoyment comes from, optimizing my play. If the group is struggling to do content and people are flaming each other then I will get some brief entertainment from it and then move on. The most craziest pf shit I've seen was when someone in my pf group made an offhand comment out of the blue to the rest of the alliance, and the raid leader booted the whole alliance I was in. I never expected him to do collective punishment for one guy, but holy shit did he do it. Got me laughing my butt off for a good few minutes. At this point, I am all farmed out at 57 clears and will only join new runs with my friends at this point. The fight is a lot more entertaining with friends. The best groups in my opinion are the groups with lots of chill farmers, the ones that keep going and roll with the punches of PF life. Bonus is a trap, people who take shortcuts will usually be under-performers.
I moved from NA to EU recently and jumped into end-game content at the same time. I have recently cleared the third Extreme. I don't know if it is the server or the content that is different, but the people are ridiculously toxic compared to my prior experience, to the point that I genuinely think competitive shooters like Counter-Strike would have similar communities if their developers enforced similar procedures regarding toxicity. Players are super aggressive all the time, very often bordering on breaking the game rules directly. Nobody is putting any attempt into sounding nice, and most players seem to be putting an effort into making others feel bad about their mistakes. 90% of the time I lost so far was not because people were bad, but rather because people lost hope after a few wipes and everyone left, resetting all the progress of all the players who were causing the wipes, starting from scratch again and again until we miraculously get a party that clears it on first try. The "First try parties" do happen. However, after progging and watching others cause a wipe due to the exact same mistake over and over again, only for the PF to reset once again right after people started making progress, is so painful that I do not feel any amount of joy when the clear does happen. It only confirms that I was good enough at the fight to clear it, without the fun that would come from progging it slowly but consistently over time with some less competent players. Before getting into trials, we decided to farm the weekly coin with my girlfriend. We watched a guide, but there was a mechanic we missed, and not a single person bothered explaining the mechanic. They only said "tank will you attack ???" (Surprise, we don't know what means) twice, and then proceeded to act as if my girlfriend did not exist, communicating with the random dancer to focus the correct enemy instead. They explained it only after I asked if they were going to explain it instead of berating her. I to this day do not understand what that communication with the dancer accomplished other than causing emotional damage to my girlfriend in the form of "This player is so bad, let's ignore her". The dancer was also a friend of mine, and he also had no idea. Needless to say, my girlfriend is much less interested in the game now after that interaction. Just today, at the end of a PF, I had a player excuse me of causing all the wipes and then leave right away, without any feedback or explanation when I didn't even cause any of the wipes. I failed the wind mechanic twice because I was tired, and got revived immediately on both times. That is probably the only mistake they could see because they are a DPS that does not really need to learn most of the fight to clear it, so they have no idea what is even causing a wipe. They are just seeing a single obvious mistake repeated more than once, and assuming that is causing the wipe, and they can't resist the urge to let me know that I am a massive problem that shouldn't even bother trying the Extreme that I have cleared multiple times already. When I was playing the MSQ, I had a player join our MSQ dungeon, fail a mechanic I successfully dodged on my first attempt of the dungeon, die because I had to heal the tank after the said mechanic, blame me through the chat, and then leave the duty. We proceeded to beat the fight without them. It is ridiculous.
oh glad i didn't do that ... def when people are toxic i am the toxic peoples worst nightmare.. i put them in there place to the point they quit. but comes with a risk of me being even more mean
No, it’s ok to show ur emotions just not be a jerk. Chaotic is showing me that u have to speak up. If u don’t know ur mechanics don’t join a clear party. I and everyone else is tired of sitting around all day just cause people are proggingin clear parties
Thats fine but if im calling you stupid, idiot, dumbass, but yeah if ppl doing this kinda act needs to be suspended touch some grass and remember its just a game.
im a new play er to final fantasy 14 im about 100 or so hours in I just unlocked white mage and i was really nervous that people would not be willing to run dungeons with a sprout or that i would make an stupid or obvious mistake but so far everyone I had interacted with have been the nicest people in the world and had helped me learn many systems throughout the game
Keep at it. For the majority of the game and content, people are cool. It's the high end content that is the problem. I don't do that content because of the toxicity and I have been playing for 2.5 years and never experienced anything bad. Yes I would like to do it but I know if someone starts giving me crap then I'll play even worse, obviously not deliberately. People GENERALLY perform better with positive encouragement and not negative toxic comments.
Part of the problem is that a lot of players - if they "see" a mechanic, they think they are ready for the next mechanic even though their consistency on the mechanic they just passed is not at the point where its kinda brain rot. Its a huge problem in party finder and honestly I personally can't bring myself to have a positive attitude when I am at phase 4 CT out of 5 for a ultimate like FRU, and a player is messing up phase 3 APOC. Expectations need to be met for whatever is being advertised. In Chaotic - if you are at SWAP, you shouldn't be messing up in Towers. Yes stuff happens and bad days exist, but if you aren't confident in yourself in handling the permutations why move forward? Its just asking to get flamed. Naturally a good static for you is completely different and really hold on to it even if the players are at different skill levels. I just don't think its possible for reward content for people to not feel like their time is being wasted. The only positive environment I have seen is the field operation zones. People just love running as Zergs and just having a blast.
This is the whole reason i dont que on my own as a gunbreaker, started as dps and tanking is rough learning it after having done the msq, im always anxious im not doing as good as i should as a tank, and having a oarty full of randoms compounds ot cuz its always there that im not doing good enough, and that ill end up kicked
8:20 You sure they were asking about the invuln skill? What if they wanted to know what the boss cast was in the case that they don't know P12S at all? I mean, I wasn't there, but that seems more likely. Obviously, I am missing information. Perhaps include chat logs next time (blurred names optional). All in all, it's a communication problem. They could also be more clear like "What's the skill called, like when do I invuln?" Unless they were actually asking about their invuln, then carry on.
That's true, and there's also the possibility that the tank may simply not understand what the term 'invuln" means, especially if they're coming from another MMO and haven't been playing ff14 for that long.
@@TomTheOwl68 In the pursuit to be better, it is so easy to lose your humanity. Becarful, just because its wholesome, doesn't mean its what you(or others) need to live. We are all deeply flawed, it is what makes us human, it is what gives us reason to exist.
I think this game is the most fun when you’re learning. That being said I was trying to clear chaotic my friend made a swap to clear party to get me through and 4 hours later we hadn’t seen swap once and I just wasted all that time because people weren’t there yet it was kinda frustrating and I don’t even want to do chaotic anymore I’d rather start trying to clear the tier
Savage tier is a bit wild this late into the tier, but if you can find decent people it is absolutely more fun experience. And if it's your first savage tier, luckily this one is relatively easy and forgiving, so it's a nice starting point.
Don't blame the players, blame the content. You said it yourself, the fight was very frustrating and you eventually just wanted to get it done! So you did what was necessary according to the fight design to GET IT DONE. And you did. The game forced your hand! You could have disengaged from the content and never cleared. Tried endlessly (to the point of burnout) with a revolving door of players who aren't skilled enough to clear, and never cleared. OR you can get it done by whatever means are necessary. You should really blame the devs for backing the high end raiders in FFXIV into a corner on this one, it's not your fault! They could have at least had an M4S duty complete requirement for the unlock!
I said this before, I say it again: This 24 alli raid is the most anti mmo shit i ever seen. Its like a savage raid. And by this i dont mean difficulty, I mean mentality. In savage you go in, you have a plan, you expect people to know it. There is very bare minimum chit chat, or social experience. If there is, its mostly shittalking those who fucked up... Its nothing like BA or DRS - which I would much prefer. Like a more difficult actual alli raid but with a certain level of recoverability, where people are still encouraged to discuss some of the things or have time to breath to be social. This aint it. This aint mmo experience this is just how to make people hate raiding.
This feels normal to me as a WoW player. I feel like I'm just back in that game again. I think when Square made this content they didn't account for the fact that 24 people each with the ability to wipe the raid at any moment is going to create this environment. It's just basic logic. FF14 is in this state where they've literally just turned into Blizzard, making their same mistakes again and again. I think that's what irks me about this situation. "Oh we overtuned this", the devs said. They literally had so many other MMO games to pull lessons from! :( Honestly I wish they would've just set the expectation ahead of time that this would be HARDER for a group to complete than savage. They should've known this was going to happen and could warn people ahead of time.
The problem is the bodychecks of the phase 2. With 23 randoms with you, it is very rng what kind of people you get from pf and since even one of them can cause a wipe, it's a recipe for having a bad time. On the day I cleared I spent 7 hours in the so called "kill parties" that just kept wiping to towers one after another. Until I finally happened upon a group that could do it on the 2nd pull. Got my clear and decided that savages and ultimates are more fun than this turd of a raid.
@@leftunder334 it also doesnt help that there is literally zero pre requirement to do this raid. In my first tries people didny know how chains work. If people at least had to clear sphene extreme before this, they would at least have known ONE mech... for doin unreal u have to clear the extreme version and honestly most unreals were a joke compared to this...
IMO the most important skill for being in a static is the ability to maintain a positive attitude. Once negativity starts people start not wanting to be there, this becomes a big problem when your doing any content requiring endurance (a whole savage tier or ulti). Though I would be lying if I said I'd never vented frustrations to friends in a different call after raid time.
Preach! This is exactly what turned around our group from wanting to stop after m2s to being at brithday cake this late in the tier. Yes, we are casual raiders, but I love my static and we try our best to understand each other to progress.
yeah, soft skills are the most important thing in a static. Being generally pleasant and able to consistently show up on time are the best traits to be able to complete the tier. As soon as people start having to wait around for a fill in PF, morale tanks and the more people dread raid time and less likely to show up, death spiral effect.
someone's DPS being low can be fixed with practice, but you can't fix asshole.
That Yuweyawata experience reminded me about a Dead Ends run I once had through mentor roulette. I was tanking with three first timers. It was obvious none of them knew the dungeon, so we wiped quite a lot. But not once did I thought about leaving. I decided to help them however I can, and after 50 minutes in that one dungeon, we eventually cleared. It felt so good to help those three clear that one dungeon, I consider it one of the best experiences I've had in this game.
It's fine to be more blunt to people on how they are performing, but you can still be respectful about it
I feel like the toxicity surrounding chaotic isn't new. These are the attitudes that have prevailed in organized play for a long time now, we just get to see it writ large because of the axing of entire alliances and the concentration of salt from 24 players. While moments of frustration are human and understandable, that's different from treating your fellow players as if they're servers at a restaurant. Phrases such as "you're wasting my time" or "you aren't meeting expectations" and so on highlight how transactional the entire community is. Being so goal focused and mercenary, like you mentioned, leads to players giving each other less respect and saps the fun out of challenging content.
Friends and community were the heart and soul of older MMOs as you said. Modern MMO design, and 14 in particular, has pushed solo play above cooperative play to the detriment of the reason people played these games in the first place. 14 has also turned the entirety of endgame content into doing a perfect synchronized dance with 7+ other players. I think this style inherently promotes negativity between people who learn quicker than others.
I wish more endgame was designed like Delubrum Savage or Baldesion Aresenal. Both of them are by far the most fun I've had in 14. They are difficult, but absolutely do not require every single person to do every single mechanic perfectly, but instead promote the group as a whole to do their jobs reasonably well.
Ive so got to try delubrum savage!
Solo content and the call for it is a symptom, not the source of the problem. The community itself and the lack of policing it is the source. People were more friendly and patient in the past which is why people were generally more cooperative and willing to play together in group content with strangers even if it's not the tippy top end of it.
Crap communities will always necessitate solo content because the alternative is a dead game.
without solo content or casual content this game wouldnt even hit enough player to pay for the server .
Im glad Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen came out to EA. After almost a year in FF14 and completing the msq, its just completetly boring. The 4 man dungeons are all boring, with basically just speedrunning it. No communication besides hi and bye. I have both games running, with Pantheon giving me my MMO fix and FF14 as just a chat room with the FC.
I havent done extremes or savage. Because the gear upgrades arent worth it and the stress. Youre only in there for cosmetics and mounts. Not worth it to me. I have more fun with dailies in normal trials, a-raids, n-raids, and 4man dungeons.
Bozja is pretty decent but it gets pretty boring after a while. Eureka, I just started and its already getting boring.
My FC is the only reason ive stayed subbed to the game. Helping sprouts with msq dungeons is fun. Otherwise I would of unsubbed looong ago.
Again, Pantheon is more of an MMO than FF14. I came from the old school MMOs like EQ, EQ2 and P99. FF14 feels lifeless without a FC.
A lot of your points made in this video is why I don't tank or heal. No one has fun in instance content,it's all just "get to the end as fast as possible". I want to learn the roles,but I can't just toss myself in,I learn better when people aren't ripping you a new one.
You'll be perfectly fine in dungeon content to learn those roles. Normal raids are fine too. People are pretty receptive if you're in those brackets. Going above that is where you will and should be expected to perform.
@leftunder334 I don't do anything above that,but I've had way too many toxic people to try again.
@@DragonWolf69 If you're in a learning party and people are complaining at you for failing the stuff they're progging on, that's 100% toxic I agree. If you're messing up earlier stuff than what the group is targeting then complaints aren't really toxic.
Unfortunately there are a good bit of toxic people from the former. A large chunk of people also fall into the latter and just pass that off as learning. That's called prog lying and is another big problem with high end content.
@@DragonWolf69I could give you some basic guide line for Tanking, if you would be rly interested in it. Im a tank main for very long now,and once you got comfortable with it,it’s by far one of the best and fun things to do( personal experience)
@DragonWolf69 weird. I've never recieved toxicity for my healing or tanking. The very rare toxicity that I sometimes see are almost always from the tank or healer to the dps.
One of my philosophies for life is, leisure time is supposed to be fun. If something is neither fun, nor necessary for some other reason, go do something else.
A little bit of frustration or annoyance can lead to greater fun down the line, but where the line stand is by the individual.
I know most of FFXIV toxicity is concentrated in high end duties. Savage, Ultimates, sometimes Extremes and now Chaotic. If toxicity goes too off the handle, I do something else.
That's also why it took me so long to decide and give Savage a try. Because I no longer have the energy or patience to endure party drama over irrelevant stuff. Luckily, like you, I found a good team to prog this tier. Not sure if we will stick together for the next tier. We will decide after we get our circle bikes. 😊
I made a big mistake recently that could've easily been avoidable if I was more mindful of my attitude, no matter how I felt about the attitude of others. The damage is done but really wish I did a better job of being more considerate. For a game where we are constantly forgiving others in the story, we really could take a step back and learn from that. Just like with you chaotic video I'm impressed how well you get points across. Super good video reminding everyone how we can make the raiding environment a better place for everyone. Somewhere where people actually feel encouraged to PUG more! Wishing your dog and your sleep well.
Sadly we learn the hard way. I made a few mistakes just after my divorce and ended up pushing certain people away, then I lashed out at others because of something stupid. I had a good thing going, was in my first static and up to the 3rd fight in 2 weeks, in an fc with 300 people and was well liked. Threw all that away and now I can't get back into the game for more than 6 months at a time
I'm someone who helped people clear TOP a lot in pf, and my attitude is that the real treasure was the people I met along the way. Goals are nice to have, but content and raids come and go and ultimately it's just a video game. But the attitude you cultivate in that journey reflects who you are, and that is more important than a video game achievement in my opinion. As a bonus, you'll have more fun too when you start finding like-minded people who are nice and chill but also strives to get better at the game so you don't waste other people's time. It's always good to remember that there is a real person behind the screen
All that being said though, there are definitely some people who consistently have bad attitude, and/or refuses to get better and for those I just use blacklist. They are definitely a minority though - I've been helping people do savage since asphodelos and can only remember a very few people that have that attitude, at least in Materia. Most people just need a little bit of encouragement, help and patience!
And the problem is the people you meet along the way are usually gone within 12 months, due to boring content, jobs being boring af until level 60, the post arr marathon is still too much and people give up. Then high end players just get bored and go play other games never to return. It's honestly painful making new friends every 6 to 12 months because 75% of people just bail, the whole point of an mmo is to have fun with other people and the fun is gone from this game
I agree with almost all of your points. Up until about a year ago, my main game used to be League of Legends. I played the ranked game mode exclusively, and I got super competitive about it, basically tying my whole enjoyment of the game to whether I'd win or lose. It genuinely made me a worse person, I'd get super angry at teammates that would underperform in my eyes, I said things in chat that I'd be mortified to hear from my own mouth in any other situation and I was just not having any fun, losing would put me in a bad mood for the whole rest of the day. I finally quit and started playing FFXIV, which I had dabbled in before, I started Dawntrail about a week ago, it's been so much fun. But anyway, the point I'm trying to make is this: The same way that only caring about winning or losing in league made me unhappy, the same thing is true in FFXIV if you only care about clearing or not clearing. As soon as you stop enjoying the process and only focus on the end result, you're entering a seriously unhealthy relationship with the game. I really think that if you notice this thought coming up in your head, that you're only playing to clear, for the grind, whatever, not for the enjoyment of the game itself, you just need to take a step back and take a break, even if it's hard. Because otherwise you start treating the game like work. You wouldn't, say, force yourself to finish reading a book just because you feel like you absolutely have to. It's fine, put it away, come back later, or don't. And I gotta say, even though there's drama in every community, compared to league, the FFXIV playerbase is a petting zoo. In general, FFXIV players rock.
As a sprout just starting endwalker I don’t ever see myself being able to do this kind of content. I started out so late and have absolutely no experience in any hard content, compared to all the vets with tons of experience still facing troubles. Older extremes and easier encounter are no longer relevant which prevents practicing on fights with incremental difficulties.
I honestly think current ex trials are a great place to start. Theyre mechanically similar to savage but usually a lot more forgiving/recoverable (hits that would kill you in savage dont in extreme), and they also dont have super difficult dps checks. You dont need a static for it and most of them you can prog and clear in a weekend (ngl I cleared the first ex for DT in like, an hour and a half iirc lol).
Yeah as I usually tell new players to the game, "remember EVERYONE was a scrub at some point early in the game. YOU WERE NOT BORN ELITE. We all had to crawl before we could walk."
Good manners can get you far. Being a horses 🍑 will get you nothing but ignored.
Wiping is inevitable, some people need refreshers, some people are swapping positions, some people cleared for the first time a few minutes ago and are still a bit shaky, whatever it is. The gear does not matter if you're not having fun. Whatever it is you're doing, have fun while doing so. Joke around, communicate, people are usually quite nice and fun once they talk.
its so true. with so many people in one group, you cant have people go ballistic. there needs to be more patience. Attitude can take you miles or set you back even more
I'm a tank main, and I understand that frustration is part of being human. And when I get frustrated, I'm not going to be the one who blames the group or an individual who's performing poorly, instead i'll get up, stretch my legs, go to the kitchen and drink some water, doing those steps is usually enough to calm my nerves and i'll be ready to go again after that.
But as a tank, I can usually save a bad situation, most of the time I don't have to rely on anyone else, and that's what I really enjoy about tanking, so the frustration rarely gets to me anymore, because I've learnt to deal with my short comings, and I also don't have to care too much about the others, i'll let them be and learn in their own pace, call it tank privilige if you want, but for me it's a way to show new players how to deal with a set of mechanics.
This is also true for work. Toxicity and passive aggresive, sarcastic comments can roll like a river sometime. In a video game like FFXIV, there is always something to run to and do, and it would help alot if folks take a moment before starting group content and doing a MH check for themselves. Take some breaths and chill.
Also, a trigger phrase for me is, "if I can do it you can do it to". Ugh, some of us don't know everything because we are into other content, games, etc. Getting to max level is garbage easy with daily roulettes which have next to zero value for learning full rotations in context of difficult content.
honestly I am so glad when I decided to do difficult content I joined a static where the ethos is be kind, be patient, help people learn the mechanics if they dont know them, and if its a clear part we'll do a few runs if we need to cause thats just how it is sometimes. I do tank in savage and some of my PF experiences have been terrible but a lot of others have been great, I try not to think too poorly of anyone unless they give me a reason too (emphasis on try, sometimes I have a bad try and its really hard)
Asking for consent before giving advice is the #1 thing that prevents misunderstandings and defensive barriers from happening. Jaded gamers are used to being yelled at and so they don't think twice about giving a complete stranger the business even if they think they're trying to be helpful. As said, the random teammate might be doing bad for a number of reasons that they're not obligated to share with you so you getting frustrated and telling them what you think they should do is only going to cause friction especially if they do know what they're supposed to do and their bad performance is because of something else.
When the FF14 TOS guidelines were changed a while back, gamers playing in the western regions got all up in a huff about the language that said blunt commands could be a valid reason for reporting for toxicity. That was a culture clash because they're all used to being told what to do and think that's a normal thing whereas on the JP servers because of the general Japanese tendency to approach conflicts with strangers indirectly, they don't tend to do that. Instead of just bluntly telling your random duty finder tank to turn on their stance if you notice they're not pulling aggro properly, they would couch it in terms of an ask. "Is your tank stance on?" instead of "Turn your tank stance on." Little things like that make a big difference.
Thankyou so much for talking about this. Ur experiences mirror my own, these toxic fuckers need to learn that they create their own problems. I made 100% more mistakes in those parties than I did in the chil ones. I have over 70 kills and just do it for fun, I recently hid my logs because I don't want people spying on them but even after getting every mount and reward (including wisp) and I get kicked a lot because I hid them.
I sadly got a rep for "making mistakes" and now I get kicked from 99% of parties cause my logs are hidden or sm1 who was in a toxic party with me saw me fuck up and called me out which only makes my adrenaline shoot up and I make 100x more mistakes cause my fight or flight is active and I'm paranoid ill get dog piled.
I got completly dog piled in 1 party after a small error (forgot my alliance and missed 1 hit from the beam) and it was so horrible ppl were screaming "get her out, get the troll out" I had this lovely tank he kept tryna calm me down and we killed next pull. Those toxics insta left and the tank said well done. At first I thought he was belittling me " well done for not fucking up" but now I realize he meant "well done for comming back from that dark place"
My bl has shot up since this and sadly ive started seeing a dark side to this community. I tried to talk about it on the forums made a thread called "Chaotic pf toxicity" and the first thing they did was find my logs and dog piled me for parsing grey, they said I didn't deserve to play. Demanded I dl add ons to play for me and even doxxed me for being a moddef all cause I tried to show what was happening
The best static I have ever been in, we called ourselves the clown car. The only reason I am not running with them these days, is because I was taking time off the game.
Its not a matter of passing something in one day or even a week it's about having fun and making good memories with others who love the game as much as you do.
I just remind myself that it is just a game, and expect the other players just to their best. There are certain dungeons I struggle with, and there are dungeons I have no problem at all. Yet, there more important things in life than gaming. At times, it is what is and you will have to go with the flow, but I never want other players to apologize to me if they make a mistake. I do not think the NPC is going to care either way.
This is part of why i avoid raid content besides Alliance or Normal Raid because of the fact toxicity can quite happen in much harder content and that if you spend five to ten minutes every time you wipe, you get tired out. When exhaustion of the mind comes into play, that's when toxic like behavior can slip in without you knowing it. I much prefer to mentally keep my peace of mind and more importantly be myself then let a game become not fun and i get sick and tired of something. It can be insufferable at that and if i can avoid becoming something like that, then wonderful, its a reward in itself for keeping myself in check.
I feel as though I'm never going to get a chance to do chaotic now. I've been gone for a while, taking a break to play other games, and now everyone is way ahead of me in terms of tackling this content. A lot of people have already gotten clears and are onto farming it now, or if they haven't cleared, they're at least knowledgeable to some degree and have tried it many times. I feel like I missed the train. I haven't played it at all, and know nothing about the mechanics. This is the first time in all my years of playing that I've let myself get behind on content like this, and now it just feels awkward to try to jump in SO late and ask anyone to accommodate me while I learn from scratch. ESPECIALLY after all the stories I've heard about how unbelievably toxic the whole scene has been compared to other content.
I would recommend joining the Radar discord. They have mentioned putting together learning runs for new players, and they try to keep the environment positive. This might be a good place for you to start c: discord.gg/qbcad5C8GC
I’m a casual.
Running into “you’re max level so you should be capable” as an attitude has been incredibly demoralising.
I like to feel comfortable with content before I inflict my casual skill on others.
Getting snide comments about my skill in EW dungeons and then running into a wall of people basically saying “you suck because you think DT is hard” doesn’t do anything to help feel better about it.
Which is to say that toxicity in the community has just grown with DT, and tbh in the world at large.
So, I have come to the realisation that the best response is “be kind”.
Which is I think the summary of your message.
Groups like you were stating is kind of the reason why I don't want to try learning and clearing the Chaotic anymore. Hell, even in a couple of Beginner PFs for me to learn made me distance myself from continuing to try. It's saddening.
Very good video im half blind person and ii see like 40% from other eye and when i play tank or healer even dps ans alot ppl they are toxic to me sometimes even when i tell them for ky disability some even say to me if u cant see dont play the game now i do rullets only with friends in scare to que for dangeon or raid :(
The reason why I completely skipped Chaotic ,it’s not an environment I would like to raid in. I clear ultimates done savages all criterion,and I have to say less player content is best content xD
Criterion with 4 players only made it one of my best experiences so far,Chaotic in the other hand 24 man pf toxic prog was a pain x)
Reflecting inwardly is always a good thing. Therapy will always tell you that you can't control other people's actions, only your own. YOU can do something to make the situation better, it just requires fighting your instinct to rage and instead channel that energy into a remark that is actually productive and improves the atmosphere of the situation.
You are 100% right about the chaotic. I just got the clear like 3 days ago. Every clear party had some sort of toxic chat or just plain mean. Sometimes groups don’t get it after 3 pulls, no reason to rage quit and say “this is the worst party I’ve played with you guys suck”. PF is crazy.
As a savage/ultimate raider, I did Chaotic for exactly one day to see what it was all about and it was stressful but fun. But before I could go back, there were forum posts, Discord chats and TH-cam videos crying to high heaven about how toxic and frustrating it was that I never gave it a second run. Just going to wait until it becomes outdated content and I can ilvl cheese it for easy rewards because the mounts just aren’t worth putting up with certain parts of this community. I am sure I’m not alone in that sentiment and this is why the PFs take forever to fill. They bring it on themselves.
Unfortunately, some people forget that FF14 and MMOs are still videogames. It's primary functions are entertainment and escapism. The moment you start treating it as a job means it's no longer fun for you.
-Be positive
-Be Friendly
-Have a good attitude
->Otherwise STFU and GTFO! This is a non-toxic pf.🤣🤣
My favorite activity after mastering a piece of content is to work with others to help them master it as well. I love helping fellow tank mains overcome their "tank-xiety". I love the chaos resulting from failing in funny ways where we can laugh together.
I don't understand the point of joining a random PF group just to go MLG on them in the most uncompetitive game.
Just relax and have fun.
No one starts as a pro. Everyone fails miserably or makes a mistake at one point or another.
I don't have an issue with the learners. I have a problem with people joining clear parties or farm parties when they're not ready.
There's learning parties. Go get practice. It's okay! The content will still be there when you're done.
Anything in this game is possible, with patience and time. Unfortunately, they are rare traits these days. If you find a group that gels with you, take care of them friends. After the recent interviews from Mr. Ozma, its safe to say things will become more fun for NA Party finder. Remember, if the game is burning you out, take a break.
Setting expectations isn't toxic. You letting ppl know what vibe you're wanting is healthy. The only way things turns toxic is if you go back on those established expectations. If you say "Chill run no salt" It better be chill and no salt and if it's "Know your stuff and lock in" it better not be a c41.
At the end of the day though it's never that serious. You have a bad experience block and move on, we're blessed that the chances you ever see that person again is low & just move on and continue doing your own thing
My purpose was not to suggest that those expectations were toxic, so I'm sorry if it came off that way. Moreso that chaotic made ME personally a lot more serious and less patient than I think I've ever been in this game. Because I went from someone afraid of those "know your stuff" parties to someone making them. I wasn't trying to say that they were ACTUALLY toxic, only that they intimidated me and I had a fear that they would be. As for the reality (at least in regards to chaotic since outside of chaotic i never really joined these kinds of parties), some of them ARE toxic, and some of them aren't. But that's true for most chaotic parties anyway.
The explanation she has, isn't that these parties are toxic, but the attitude people bring into them often do make them an incredibly unpleasant experience. Having a clear party with a rotating door of people is disheartening - even for someone like me who joins these to help others.
If anything, the parties/farms where I've had the most clears are the ones where folks go in chill.
I don't think she said expectations are toxic. However, going overkill on how you enforce these expectations can be.
Removing people over a few mistakes is never going to be a better experience unless you have a strong reason to believe that the next prog is not going to go better. Especially if you are running content that you wish to clear once and not 10+ times in a row, people are going to be making mistakes. The example she gives where people remove others at basically every mistake will just create an environment where, not only are you making no progress because you keep removing people who have just learned from their mistakes and replacing them with players who haven't, but you also add stress on top of that where everyone is trying to blame each other in an attempt to "survive." I do not think it can be better, unless your point actually is to clear the content many times in a row and you are only expecting people that has farmed it many times in the past already.
@ I 100% agree with you. With that being said it's also incredibly unrealistic to expect people to play how you (or I) personally enjoy.
That was my point.
It's naive to think that 8-24 people are all going to gel together. If you don't like how a party lead is running the party you can just leave. Nothing is keeping you there. That's what I'm saying about setting expectations. As long as it's clear to everyone what they are joining into I don't see the problem.
@ I fail to see how being more serious and less patient is a negative. Unless you are taking it upon yourself to teach other people you (as a player) do not owe your time to others.
People naturally will be more serious to things that they care or have a higher level of investment into. By the sounds of it you really wanted to prog Chaotic and were looking for like-minded individuals. You setting your expectations of "please respect my time" is nothing to feel guilty for.
Body Check Alliance Raids will always be a risky activity for both developers and players. Unfortunately with the PF centered community that Western players have to deal with; time will be required, and in the western world where time is considered money and life many people will be rightfully irritable that their time is being squandered by the activity itself. I think it'll be important for Square to take this one on the chin, and see how they can revise this aspect of Alliance Raids.
A positive attitude even if things go downhill really is the best way to succeed. In my old static we had a guy who would mercilessly flame everyone. Maybe not right away but he had a talent to drag down morale. Which was the reason the static broke down eventually. You can call it "toxic positivity" all you like, in the end its always better to just put up a brave face and pretend that things arent as bad than doom-saying everything. There is a thing called "self-fulfilling prophecy", and trashing your group members, threatening them, isnt helping anyone.
And yes, thats the reason I wont set foot into Chaotic. I have enough problems with a single jerk in an 8-man group, let along several in a 24-man group. And sadly I dont have time anymore to spend my evenings wiping - whether its with fun people or not.
Positivity, attitude, etc., i think its all just a balancing act. Certain feelings will just come up from situations or group atmospheres whether you want them to or not, but if you can recognize those feelings when they show up it's empowering. You're absolutely right about taking a break; you can decide if it's really worth getting upset over, you can decide if you can continue in that group, or if its best to just stop and come back to it later, it'll still be there when you come back!
I am patient and loving. Idk how my attitude is a problem. I spread joy in FF14 not be toxic!
I'm a C4X helper in all the Ultimates, and while I'm not perfect, I try to be. The main thing I try and bring is positivity. There's a lot of vitriol an Venom in the high-end Clear/Reclear community, that every little bit of kindness goes a long way. Stay strong out there in PF
Raiding brings the worse in people. The "friendly community" mask gets off at the 3rd wipe. Doesn't help that PF is an archaic system that do not even has scheduling. So you end up waiting a lot. Only to wipe 3 times and everyone leaving. Of course everyone will be pissed off.
I play games to relax, not to be stressed out. I have real life to get stressed out and at least in real life I get paid to do so. Makes no sense to add stress for absolutely nothing.
Kudos for saying that. For spilling!
goes both ways, it's main reason I quit FFXIV
I love to join clear groups and help ppl even if we don't clear for 5hours I don't mind it at alll, but just help them progress at least. It's very very enjoyable to me
BUT I'm not ok anymore with either playing tuesday morning for savage/hc content or literally need 10x the time to clear in cleargrps cuz 2-3people are constantly unprepared/unfocused simply cause they know they won't get called out anyway.
So FFXIV becomes this constant timewaste cycle of wait for 90%, play, disband the entire thing and repeat.
Playing TnL rn and ppl cry about toxicity, but this toxicity is miles better than the timewaste you get in FFXIV. I don't want to be stuck in hc content every single week again and again as if it's day1week1 in supposed clear groups week after week for months
being forced to play tuesday morning and clear in 1 1/2h or play any other time and need 10h+ is just not ok
I feel terrible myself when doing mistakes/being unprepared, no words are more toxic than jailing my party
Yet in FFXIV it seems jailing ppl is the standard and saying anything is the worst
Yeah I came back when the New DT quest came out, still working on my 730 gear. I am a pretty good learner and even when i say 1st time, no one takes time to even explain they expect you to somehow already know the fight. And they can be extremely rude, its super disheartening because i'm always so nice and try my best. I'd like to do the games hardest content but now i'm just too worried about people ripping me apart without help expecting excellence my first time.
A positive attitude is absolutely key. That being said, the chaotic fight itself induces toxicity and it's concerning that this content was _supposed_ to be designed for newbies (people who've never done raiding before). I progged the fight for 2 days and just had to stop because I felt the toxicity in myself too. I've since finished learning all three EXs and the first savage fight, and I'm having much more fun.
I've been in 2 party finder extreme groups recently and been doing dungeon roulette on the side and am very new to doing current tier things. I've been maining tank for extremes and I've been in full panic some of the times because when I mess up I get so worried people are going to be really upset with me because I can be so dumb at times. In my first extreme there was someone who was being toxic and they ended up quitting part way through because of me and it didn't feel nice at all. We got a replacement quickly and the new person was incredibly nice and helpful and we ended up clearing the extreme on our second try (ftr we had gotten close several times before that, but I did feel a lot better and confident when people were being nicer.) The second extreme I still have not cleared but I've been playing it with my best friend and he's gotten so insanely good at healing the fight and he's been able to explain mechanics to me as they're happening and actually laughs if I do something goofy like falling off the platform because I forgot gravity and the party we had was also very kind and helpful and patient and i learned a lot about that fight and am very confident we're going to clear soon. The latest dungeon I ran was actually on scholar and I'm still learning scholar, I'm leveling it as I go. This was last night and my internet tanked like crazy while I was in this dungeon and I was panicking because I knew what my abilities did but I keep getting heavensward dungeons when I play scholar... this was a shadowbringers one which meant I had to figure out what a lot of abilities meant on account of I've barely had a chance to use them. And everyone in that group was STILL so kind despite how bad I KNOW I must have messed up. The tank was a sprout but played like a veteran (could be an alt but I'd prefer to think they're a sprout because I think that's neat.) All in all. We have more fun when everyone is and I'm glad I met so many nice people :) I hope the toxicity goes down a bit soon. Thank you for sharing your experience
Building synergy in the group is more important than filtering out players that are less familiar with the fight, especially during prog/clear, it is sad that most pf player don't understand that. Constantly kicking player just destroys the group's synergy and makes clearing the fight impossible.
Im always the one who picks it up fast and consistently executes mechanics, however, due to "raiders" like you described, I refuse to do any Savage+ content since Stormblood, and ive enjoyed playing FF14 so so much more. My opinion is to let those people feed on each other and rage on each other. Cool to hear there are 'happy raiders' but I don't personally believe it exists or are willing to suffer through the rest to find them.
raiding is toxic part of mmorpg it always was .
I think a lot of people have forgotten that you can have fun wiping all night. Honestly, I'd have quit a long time ago if I could just put up a pf and one shot everything.
I have a hand issue on both my hands so I do not even dare touch content other than extremes. And I solo extremes alone when new expansions come out so I can be higher level. That was also a reason I have still not finished the main story. I started playing on 2018 and I am at the beginning of Shadowbringers. It really helped that they released the Trust System. My sister does all this content and I watch her when she plays. I have seen her handle many types of people and yeah...I agree...As a person with my problem I am too scared to do all this content or interact with others. Not to shame the FFXIV community, all of you are the sweetest on the most part...but there are people that take it too seriously
When I started playing I was even scared of queuing for actual roulettes so I would overlevel to the point I was allowed by clearing levequests or fates and I would solo the dungeons. I have soloed Sastasha and whichever early RR dungeon did not need more than one person. Otherwise I would ask my sister to clear it together unsynced
Those people that call people out also have been beginners in their role and cannot tell me they never messed up! Even in end game people still need to learn cuz it might be their first time experiencing that raid either as their first job or one of their new ones, shitting on people in general is so easy behind a screen yk
I think that the main issue here is that there's a lot of players that they only raid with their friends which is completely fine but they don't know about how raiding in pf is. PF with random players it's been always toxic, even if you have a lot of patience or you're not toxic, there will be some point where your toxicity will come over to other players. I think what matters it's as well said to realize you were toxic and apologize and try to turn said toxicity into positive energy. I mean i've been raiding with pf since ShB and the toxicity for Savage, ultimates and hard game content has always been there and will always be. Just having a good mindset and positive energy it's all that takes to enjoy :)
I have never understood the appeal of that raiding. It always attracts the worst people, or brings out the worst in you.
Good rule of thumb - Never play with a group who doesn't sound like they're having fun.
If the people you are playing with sound like they're not playing a game, run as fast as you can.
Unfortunately, high performance activities draw out the people who use these activities to measure their own self-worth. So for you it's a game. For them, it's the center of their existance. They will make their problems yours every chance they get.
First red flag if this is happening is by asking yourself how often you genuinely smile and laugh together. How often you find yourself complaining together.
In any co-operative objective in life you should be bringing more of your effort to the table than ever. It's just basic respect for other people.
People tie their self-worth to high-end raiding not because they love that content in particular, but because they know they're a burden if they don't perform. They expect of others what they feel should be expected of themselves.
@leftunder334 Agreed with the first paragraph 100%. I was only discussing attitude, not effort. Yes, if you agree to be in a group, do the part you signed up for.
Putting in effort doesn't require being rude or being stiff or being a jerk. That's the point I am highlighting.
Basic respect for other people also means not letting your personal problems spoil the experience.
Being a good player, a good party member, also means being able to have fun.
You can play your role perfectly with the mechanics god-tier. But if your attitude sucks, you are still a burden to others.
Being respectful is a full package.
-- Make sure you don't commit to a time where you will be interrupted.
--Make sure you are prepared for the activity. If people are relying on you to have certain knowledge and you all agreed about it, yes do that.
-- Make sure you are healthy with the game and the people. If you are highly irritable, likely to lash out, or attack them with angry emotional outbirsts, you are just going to hurt morale and a become a burden.
A truly good player is one who can keep their cool and stay calm. Everyone has a bad day. If that happens, you take responsibility and apologize and earn the respect back.
@MinecraftMartin I agree with pretty much everything you said, but the usual 3-wipe disband group (for farm here, NOT prog) is giving people enough buffer to make the occasional mistake. Occasional mistakes by themselves are okay.
After that 3-wipe point, it's clear that people are prog lying and need to accept they need to go back and get more practice. Just because you've reached engage doesn't mean anything if you were dead. You're not ready yet.
@leftunder334 Yeah nothing special or new with that either.
Failure will always be part of the process.
It's about how you react to it, and it will never require being negative.
If you have a member who is becoming am obstacle to progress for the whole group, talk to them in private and work with them.
If you are the type of person who wants to get angry and call them out in front of everyone, you are a now adding yourself to the list of problems with the group.
This kind of stuff is so well documented and accessible for anyone who truly values respect.
If you need to kick someone, do it as privately and respectfully as possible. If you truly want to respect the people you are playing with, this is how to really prove it.
If the person you are kicking is a jerk, let them be the only one being a jerk. Easier said than done, but the effort counts.
A bad, disrespectful attitude has killed raiding groups many times over the years!
this is why raiding is killing mmorpgs and has for ages it breed ego and evil within ppl ,that nto to say all raiders are pure egoist or evil but many to many are
I've had lots of people come into my videos and tell me to uninstall the game. the foci community is not as innocent as they claim to be. lots of these people are horrible
Introspection can be really valuable. It's good that you can recognize your own faults, but that's not enough. You have to take steps to improve upon them otherwise the energy you're putting into your hindsight is wasted. So when you admit that you will undoubtedly make the same mistakes again in the future, you're not holding yourself accountable, and it's not fair to the other players your gaming with.
When you say, "When I want something, I want it NOW." This is indicative of instant gratification and the constant need for it. This is extremely toxic, and this is quite possibly the biggest reason why you get the way you do. Getting a clear should never be your primary goal. Your goal should be to have fun and enjoy the journey towards getting your clear. This is especially true in prog.
Anywho, best of luck to you in your future endeavors. You are indeed human so don't beat yourself up too much over it. But always strive to be a better person.
I think it's interesting and relevant that you see that even though you, with your ego, think you acted in a politically correct way, it doesn't mean that someone didn't feel offended. I find your humor somewhat acidic, not toxic but provocative.
I loved seeing your new perspectives, especially regarding Chaotic, I also remember some videos where you mention that you have clears, that you did ultimate, that you are super hyper mega experienced and professional (not exactly like that but you implied that it was that way) but that doesn't distance you from mistakes, we are all human beings in the end.
Also your voice... my god what a perfect voice you have, sometimes i just open one of your vids, give a like and enjoy your voice.
Ive never done an ultimate actually! Just savage, chaotic, and extreme trials c:
Yup. This is precisely why the only content I play now is Frontlines. I don’t have to worry about any of that mess there. Either I do well or I don’t.
I generally don't mind other people making mistakes, but I'm very harsh to my own mistakes. I am certain that by now I should just be doing everything right and when I fail to meet that expectation, I feel I should just uninstall the game and never try again. Some players reinforce that feeling, some players try to be encouraging, but most people don't say anything and that makes it easy to think that they share my negative sentiment against myself
Chaotic was the first raid that ever made me toxic in the game. I'm very toxic in real life, but in the game, I'm usually always nice, even in ultimate pf.
"What is an MMO supposed to be about?"
Judging on what i see most of the time, Limsa Catgirl Drama.
I'm the worst at this but I just try to stay quiet if I'm upset. I'm a whitemage main so sometimes I just get stressed out and frustrated.
BUT I don't say anything because I don't like bringing other people down specially when there's so much I can do better.
Though when I'm upset I seem to like radiate a quiet passive aggressiveness I guess 😅
My perspective is - You pick people up instead of kick them when they are down. (Even if DEEP down I want to be a kicker it's not right)
The toxicity in Chaotic is justified. If I join a group advertised as a bramble/swap party and we're wiping at the start of P2 on towers I'm not going to waste my time.
its not toxic to decide you want to leave or feel like it's a waste of time. Been there. But it IS toxic to start aggressively calling people out or making snide remarks. Silently dropping and moving on isnt toxic.
@@Aitherea Yeah I don't do that. I just dip after 5 wipes in a row at the same spot since I already know this isn't going anywhere.
Though depending on who you are, that is considered Toxic.
you cant scale difficult content to that many people or it just gets either extremely toxic or extremely exclusive because the avg player is just simply not good. It's like doing Sunwell in WoW TBC, it was absolutely miserable because of how easily 1 idiot could wipe the other 24 people. Chaotic is no different.
I just avoid high end content and thats like all i have left to do but it feels like everyones a vet and doesnt have time for people learning they all get so angry and now im burning out on not having much to do so i guess thats my own fault but ff has been a really fun ride
There was one time I was doing this week one; all the progression I was doing was in Primal (since at the time I wanted to show Primal more support). I was lucky to get very far and clear on Primal on day 3. On day 2, I went to Aether to try to get a clear, but I ended up getting kicked out after one pull (not a few or 10+ pulls). I got kicked out of a PF in Aether just from one pull because I grew a muscle memory that I was not supposed to have because one of the people in my party was not adjusting and moving towards me for stacking, and I just kept getting killed. At that point, that was when I started to move in since the other person was not doing what they were supposed to do, and that got carried to the next PF I joined, which was in Aether. When it was time to stack in the tile phase, me and the tank moved into the same tile and fell through. They started to put ??? in the chat, and I mentioned to the person about the last PF situation I had to deal with. What I stated earlier was that in this PF, I (as the healer) and the tank stepped on the same tile; the fact that person left just after *ONE PULL*, and I got kicked out of a party for that was enough for me to stay out of Aether and focus on getting my clear in Primal, which I did. After I cleared, I remember how much of a pain it was getting a clear in PF and why I stopped raiding.
I've had the best time with raids, the ones I have done are admittedly only from ARR and Heavensward because that's all the further I've yet gotten, but every time, there was at least one person in them explaining it and usually as a tank, the other tank asking me to switch when tank switching is necessary. Contrast dungeons, I hate running dungeons with other players because when I'm doing ones I don't know, I always, always get one jerk who has done it several times harassing me for not knowing mechanics or the layout or failing to pull because my level is synched and I don't have something that will help with pulling, whatever. Watching this, I get where they're coming from now, but at the same time, I don't know it and NPCs when Duty Support is available and my one friend who has been playing significantly longer than I have don't judge.
I find it incredibly ironic that after endwalker, an expansion very much shoving it in your face that giving in to despair and hopelessness is not an option and that you should always hold out hope until the end, the community feels so fatalistic now that people just like giving up on teaching new players. If you don‘t have maximum itemlevel, don‘t even attempt the fight, if you haven‘t seen enrage, how do you even expect to clear, if you cannot fill a party on your datacenter in 15 minutes, just hop over to the bigger datacenter and poach people there. I know endwalker gets a lot of shit for its story, but the theme of even in the face of unfathomable despair believing in a better future and doing your damndest to reach it seems lost when I join a partyfinder for practice that disbands after three wipes on the mechanic they were practicing
Idk about the whole "you'll get better with practice" thing. I've been maining tank since I started playing in 2018 and I still suck. 😅
awww. Well sometimes it's both about practice and having people there to help you! There's so much I learned about this game from *other* players that I would never have figured out otherwise c:
@Aitherea I've been trying to get into Savage raiding starting with M1 Savage. I've gotten through about 2/3 of the fight in practices and thought I knew those portions well, but the majority of PF groups I get into inevitably ask me if I even know the fight at all. :/ I also don't really have much in the way of in-game contacts to lean on, so it's mostly PF.
I havent cleared the Chaoritc raid yet for this exact reason. Im not a very confrontational person and try to do my absolute best to stay on everyone's good side, but the constant waiting after just 2 or 3 pulls or even if we did just wiping because a few key players arent figuring it out make for an environment where there's not really any patience left and parties just fight n break up repeatedly. It's uncomfortable enough doing weekly savage reclears on pf; 3 times the amount of people seem to just make this too miserable to really feel like any of the rewards are worth going through that.
I made the decision to quit farming chaotic not because it was too hard or even because of the toxicity of other players. I quit because it was turning me into a toxic player. This fight is the pinnacle of everything I hate about the way high end content is designed in FF14. Dying because some else made a mistake is frustrating. Dying to a 0.1% hard enrage that the whole team struggled so hard for is infuriating. If the devs insist on only making high end content that brings out the worst in me and makes me a worse person, then I will be forced to quit the game entirely.
And with the recent interview with the lead battle designer saying that he considers extremes to be casual content, I am for the first time, worried about the future of the game.
Nowadays everyone I meet seems to play as a speedrunner, while I play the same way I played those Squaresoft classic FF games. I like to look around as I go through a dungeon, I like sightseeing, smelling the flowers, taking my time, joke around and maybe get to know my team mates better.
Why are you guys in such a hurry? Where are you going?
BTW The fight is 10 times easier when you got a competent shield healer doing just that instead of roleplaying as a dps.
That how it was for me on m3s the group i was with we saw enrage like 5 times and before we disbanded we talked and cheered each other on and I ended up in a group we wiped 3 times shook off the conwebs and we ended up clearing no salt needed just encourage. We called out members to help encourage them, we made sure to show examples incase ppl were confused and we finally cleared it was cool.
thanks for sharing. I was going to say - this will change nothing, but... trying to have a good attitude, maybe this will make the world just a little bit brighter, and that's a great thing.
Stay positive, neva give up
The one thing FF14 has going for it is the community and it's starting to falter.
An exaggeration at best.
ive been invited to a couple statics this expansion by just randomly walking around interacting with random people, ive turned them all down because i just dont like to risk the chance of being the reason some people wont clear. doesnt stop them from asking me to raid with them, but its something that i wanna do just to have fun while doing it, not hardcore day in day out planned out raids
I came back not too long ago after a very long break and the first thing I've also noticed is how much more judgemental people have gotten. Before when there was sprouts there was endless patience or people at least didn't say anything. These days? The opposite. Had actually today two bad runs in a roll in roulette, first a trial - it was cute, half of it was sprouts and first timing it and yeah it took three times but who cares? They really did try and followed every advice. Some of the more experienced ones got a bit impatient and wanted to abondon the duty and the off tank rage quit. Okay, they were fully in their right to leave. But the abondon votes were really not necessary. Right after in a raid roulette I get a real d*ck of a whm. The guy literally flamed on an old Alex raid because we wiped once as people didn't know about portals as they've only ever done it unsynced. Jesus. That was something
I don't take Chaotic Personally, I just focus on my task and how to optimize my performance as a healer. That's where most of my enjoyment comes from, optimizing my play. If the group is struggling to do content and people are flaming each other then I will get some brief entertainment from it and then move on. The most craziest pf shit I've seen was when someone in my pf group made an offhand comment out of the blue to the rest of the alliance, and the raid leader booted the whole alliance I was in. I never expected him to do collective punishment for one guy, but holy shit did he do it. Got me laughing my butt off for a good few minutes. At this point, I am all farmed out at 57 clears and will only join new runs with my friends at this point. The fight is a lot more entertaining with friends.
The best groups in my opinion are the groups with lots of chill farmers, the ones that keep going and roll with the punches of PF life. Bonus is a trap, people who take shortcuts will usually be under-performers.
I moved from NA to EU recently and jumped into end-game content at the same time. I have recently cleared the third Extreme. I don't know if it is the server or the content that is different, but the people are ridiculously toxic compared to my prior experience, to the point that I genuinely think competitive shooters like Counter-Strike would have similar communities if their developers enforced similar procedures regarding toxicity. Players are super aggressive all the time, very often bordering on breaking the game rules directly. Nobody is putting any attempt into sounding nice, and most players seem to be putting an effort into making others feel bad about their mistakes. 90% of the time I lost so far was not because people were bad, but rather because people lost hope after a few wipes and everyone left, resetting all the progress of all the players who were causing the wipes, starting from scratch again and again until we miraculously get a party that clears it on first try.
The "First try parties" do happen. However, after progging and watching others cause a wipe due to the exact same mistake over and over again, only for the PF to reset once again right after people started making progress, is so painful that I do not feel any amount of joy when the clear does happen. It only confirms that I was good enough at the fight to clear it, without the fun that would come from progging it slowly but consistently over time with some less competent players.
Before getting into trials, we decided to farm the weekly coin with my girlfriend. We watched a guide, but there was a mechanic we missed, and not a single person bothered explaining the mechanic. They only said "tank will you attack ???" (Surprise, we don't know what means) twice, and then proceeded to act as if my girlfriend did not exist, communicating with the random dancer to focus the correct enemy instead. They explained it only after I asked if they were going to explain it instead of berating her. I to this day do not understand what that communication with the dancer accomplished other than causing emotional damage to my girlfriend in the form of "This player is so bad, let's ignore her". The dancer was also a friend of mine, and he also had no idea. Needless to say, my girlfriend is much less interested in the game now after that interaction.
Just today, at the end of a PF, I had a player excuse me of causing all the wipes and then leave right away, without any feedback or explanation when I didn't even cause any of the wipes. I failed the wind mechanic twice because I was tired, and got revived immediately on both times. That is probably the only mistake they could see because they are a DPS that does not really need to learn most of the fight to clear it, so they have no idea what is even causing a wipe. They are just seeing a single obvious mistake repeated more than once, and assuming that is causing the wipe, and they can't resist the urge to let me know that I am a massive problem that shouldn't even bother trying the Extreme that I have cleared multiple times already.
When I was playing the MSQ, I had a player join our MSQ dungeon, fail a mechanic I successfully dodged on my first attempt of the dungeon, die because I had to heal the tank after the said mechanic, blame me through the chat, and then leave the duty. We proceeded to beat the fight without them. It is ridiculous.
oh glad i didn't do that ... def when people are toxic i am the toxic peoples worst nightmare.. i put them in there place to the point they quit. but comes with a risk of me being even more mean
To myself the entire FFXIV community feels like it's all fake toxic positivity. It's what drove me away from the game.
No, it’s ok to show ur emotions just not be a jerk. Chaotic is showing me that u have to speak up. If u don’t know ur mechanics don’t join a clear party. I and everyone else is tired of sitting around all day just cause people are proggingin clear parties
Thats fine but if im calling you stupid, idiot, dumbass, but yeah if ppl doing this kinda act needs to be suspended touch some grass and remember its just a game.
im a new play er to final fantasy 14 im about 100 or so hours in I just unlocked white mage and i was really nervous that people would not be willing to run dungeons with a sprout or that i would make an stupid or obvious mistake but so far everyone I had interacted with have been the nicest people in the world and had helped me learn many systems throughout the game
Keep at it. For the majority of the game and content, people are cool. It's the high end content that is the problem. I don't do that content because of the toxicity and I have been playing for 2.5 years and never experienced anything bad. Yes I would like to do it but I know if someone starts giving me crap then I'll play even worse, obviously not deliberately.
People GENERALLY perform better with positive encouragement and not negative toxic comments.
I got kicked out of a dungeon because I was running as reaper and I was doing fine damage but they didn't tell me what I did wrong
Part of the problem is that a lot of players - if they "see" a mechanic, they think they are ready for the next mechanic even though their consistency on the mechanic they just passed is not at the point where its kinda brain rot.
Its a huge problem in party finder and honestly I personally can't bring myself to have a positive attitude when I am at phase 4 CT out of 5 for a ultimate like FRU, and a player is messing up phase 3 APOC.
Expectations need to be met for whatever is being advertised. In Chaotic - if you are at SWAP, you shouldn't be messing up in Towers. Yes stuff happens and bad days exist, but if you aren't confident in yourself in handling the permutations why move forward? Its just asking to get flamed.
Naturally a good static for you is completely different and really hold on to it even if the players are at different skill levels. I just don't think its possible for reward content for people to not feel like their time is being wasted.
The only positive environment I have seen is the field operation zones. People just love running as Zergs and just having a blast.
This is the whole reason i dont que on my own as a gunbreaker, started as dps and tanking is rough learning it after having done the msq, im always anxious im not doing as good as i should as a tank, and having a oarty full of randoms compounds ot cuz its always there that im not doing good enough, and that ill end up kicked
Normalize Chaotic raids.
yeah there's a reason i dont do high end content after my experiences with wow lol!
smart my man smart.
I honestly won't be playing this game until the next expansion. If and when it comes out.
8:20 You sure they were asking about the invuln skill? What if they wanted to know what the boss cast was in the case that they don't know P12S at all? I mean, I wasn't there, but that seems more likely. Obviously, I am missing information. Perhaps include chat logs next time (blurred names optional). All in all, it's a communication problem. They could also be more clear like "What's the skill called, like when do I invuln?" Unless they were actually asking about their invuln, then carry on.
That's true, and there's also the possibility that the tank may simply not understand what the term 'invuln" means, especially if they're coming from another MMO and haven't been playing ff14 for that long.
yes they were asking for the name of their invuln skill.
Were all effected by are environment, it makes us who we are.
And we can all be better and do better.
@@TomTheOwl68 In the pursuit to be better, it is so easy to lose your humanity. Becarful, just because its wholesome, doesn't mean its what you(or others) need to live.
We are all deeply flawed, it is what makes us human, it is what gives us reason to exist.
Wish I could find a raid group that I can play with on a regular basis
They are many looking for players. You just have to bite the bullet and try some and see if u guys fit
People have always been like this, tho. Especially in ultimate.
I think this game is the most fun when you’re learning.
That being said I was trying to clear chaotic my friend made a swap to clear party to get me through and 4 hours later we hadn’t seen swap once and I just wasted all that time because people weren’t there yet it was kinda frustrating and I don’t even want to do chaotic anymore I’d rather start trying to clear the tier
Savage tier is a bit wild this late into the tier, but if you can find decent people it is absolutely more fun experience. And if it's your first savage tier, luckily this one is relatively easy and forgiving, so it's a nice starting point.
Don't blame the players, blame the content. You said it yourself, the fight was very frustrating and you eventually just wanted to get it done! So you did what was necessary according to the fight design to GET IT DONE. And you did.
The game forced your hand! You could have disengaged from the content and never cleared. Tried endlessly (to the point of burnout) with a revolving door of players who aren't skilled enough to clear, and never cleared. OR you can get it done by whatever means are necessary.
You should really blame the devs for backing the high end raiders in FFXIV into a corner on this one, it's not your fault! They could have at least had an M4S duty complete requirement for the unlock!
I said this before, I say it again: This 24 alli raid is the most anti mmo shit i ever seen. Its like a savage raid. And by this i dont mean difficulty, I mean mentality. In savage you go in, you have a plan, you expect people to know it. There is very bare minimum chit chat, or social experience. If there is, its mostly shittalking those who fucked up... Its nothing like BA or DRS - which I would much prefer. Like a more difficult actual alli raid but with a certain level of recoverability, where people are still encouraged to discuss some of the things or have time to breath to be social. This aint it. This aint mmo experience this is just how to make people hate raiding.
This feels normal to me as a WoW player. I feel like I'm just back in that game again.
I think when Square made this content they didn't account for the fact that 24 people each with the ability to wipe the raid at any moment is going to create this environment. It's just basic logic.
FF14 is in this state where they've literally just turned into Blizzard, making their same mistakes again and again. I think that's what irks me about this situation.
"Oh we overtuned this", the devs said. They literally had so many other MMO games to pull lessons from! :( Honestly I wish they would've just set the expectation ahead of time that this would be HARDER for a group to complete than savage. They should've known this was going to happen and could warn people ahead of time.
The problem is the bodychecks of the phase 2. With 23 randoms with you, it is very rng what kind of people you get from pf and since even one of them can cause a wipe, it's a recipe for having a bad time. On the day I cleared I spent 7 hours in the so called "kill parties" that just kept wiping to towers one after another. Until I finally happened upon a group that could do it on the 2nd pull. Got my clear and decided that savages and ultimates are more fun than this turd of a raid.
@@leftunder334 it also doesnt help that there is literally zero pre requirement to do this raid. In my first tries people didny know how chains work. If people at least had to clear sphene extreme before this, they would at least have known ONE mech... for doin unreal u have to clear the extreme version and honestly most unreals were a joke compared to this...
I've noticed alot more of this on Aether than Primal try raiding there. One of the good things about dc travel.
Well, your a miquo girl in contemporary casual glam. I didn't need this video to know your toxic. ;3
Thanks for the info on your dog😂😂😂