Towards an Aesthetic understanding of Arms and Armour
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 มิ.ย. 2024
- Ilya takes us on a journey of discovery about Arms and Armor through the ages. He gives us his insight about historical art and armor that delivers a fresh look at the "boob armor" question. Practical vr fantasy and everything in between.
We have heard many different speakers talk about book armor and give their opinions, but rarely or possible never have we heard the opinion of an armourer with a degree in classical art as well.
Everything From Geek art such as the kouros and the doryphoros than on to Hoplite armor and and examples from the Middle Ages and the renaissance. He talks about several works from Nigroli and other famous armorers.
The given examples of not only Armor but the cultures that surround the warriors of the day lead Ilya to believe that boob armor isn't so far fetched.
3:36 - Kroisos Kouros, c. 530 BCE
3:49 - Doryphoros c. 440 BCE
5:17 Hoplite Armor c. 500 BCE
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Videos Shot, Produced and edited by - Matt Stagmer
Co-producer : Ilya Alekseyev
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Armor and Sculpture photos were mostly taken from Wikipedia
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#boobarmor #fantasyarmor #armsandarmor
Thanks for watching our first historical talk episode. We plan on doing more and would love to hear any good ideas for topics. The better the debate opportunity the more fun we have with it. Try and stump the Slav!
That Works I recommend trying to get a collaboration video with Dr. Tobias Capwell, it would undoubtedly be an excellent watch.
Sorry about the double post, but the phone version of TH-cam is trash and I can't edit my previous comment because the livestream chat is in the way.
I believe Knyght Errant, and the "Pursuingthe KnightlyArts" channels would also be potentially great viewing.
A very good video on, not just things like boob armor, but our change of perspective of practicality and status. Over the last couple of years the youtube sword and fantasy community has shifted away from the idea of: "it wasn't done in the medieval days, so it must have been useless." mainly with the idea that there could be many more reasons why certain things were done, or not done in the old days except for the idea that it was practical.
I think this video, and in particular your final conclusion in the end, is a very good example of why it is so important to remember how people thought in those days, to find out the reason why people did it, instead of just looking at what was done and saying that was how everything should be done.
I hope you'll be making more videos like these since they really bring in new perspectives I'd personally not thought of yet, and are very much eye openers, mainly because they have not been explained/explored yet. (the explanation of how the strong divide in classes between peasants and royalty influenced the people's thoughts of how the world worked for example)
TL;DR great video keep up the awesome work you guys are doing, and I hope that you enjoyed making this as much as I enjoyed watching it, since I'd love to see more like this.
I am really interrested in
sword shapes , reasons behind them and their pros and cons . Can you elaborate and simplify it for us please ?.
Guys I have a question that has been bugging me. Can you cast steel if you get it to its melting point or doest it always turn in to cast Iron even if it doesnt have 3% carbon content in it?? Because based on physics I think casting steel given the right temperatures should be possible.
This video is a great counterpoint to the modern materialist viewpoint that many people project onto ancient arms and armor.
To ancient people, the practically of an object includes it's symbolic significance, because the supernatural wasn't merely abstract to these people.
I'd even say: because supernatural wasn't 'super' for them. It was simply natural...Religious mentality and all...
While true they also stopped doing shit if it got them killed. Hence why muscular armor was stopped being used in war lateron and aesthetics changed and practicality won. So you can argue for mild breast armor in bronze, because in that time the material, not deflection, was the primary defense, hence sculpting it would be in line with it vs. Rennaissance plate armor where the geometrical shape was essential for protection against weapons of the day and thus that armor - while beautiful - is mainly built to have that shape.
Artistic styles did live long if they compromised the weapons and armor to the detriment of their wearer.
@@mangalores-x_x I'd argue that it's more of a resource/time efficiency thing. A hardened steel cuirass with gold filigree will protect just as well as a plain one. It's just more expensive and time-consuming to make.
Don't forget the way arms and armour were used to show status and wealth. In a setting where women wear armour would make as much sense for cuirasses to be shaped like an idealised female body as an idealised male body, even if it was just a way for rich women to show off.
It would be if the information was better in the video.
"Mine's bigger than yours" has been a hallmark of combative design for ages.
Trump and Kim Jong-Un agreed.
Funnily enough, in Ancient Greece, a large penis was equated to barbarism and the inability to control one's desires. That's why Greek statues of revered figures always had such tiny dicks.
@@Zappygunshot same with the romans IIRC, that said in the late medival armor there was a trend to make the codpeices of armor by oversized to a rather silly degree.
Sir Hector, your cod piece is gigantic.
I don't think that's where it came from lol
nearly 40 minutes of being told "armour makes you sexy"
your god damn right
You're* and no need for gd thanks
@@rockinHurley777 god needs you, though.
@@rockinHurley777 You're god damn wrong. There is definitely a need for the emphasis "god damn" gives.
29:49
@@roland4240 Having sexy armor gives moral to your troops
Metatron made a video on why he hates the term "It must be ceremonial" that's basically used every time an achelogist finds a piece of arms or armor that seems impractical. Let's be real, half of those things were probably used or were supposed to be used in combat, we got gangs who use gold and gem plated guns, some people just want to show off.
Came here for people hitting warm metal with colder metal, got a history lesson. One satisfied customer :D
I really kinda hope Ilya makes a set of female gothic armor with all this in mind. I really would like to see the practical application of this: a suit of armor for a woman that makes her an angel of the battlefield.
Me: Modern fashion is complicated!
Ilya: Hold my vodka.
In Pirates of Carribean, there is a lot of phrases like "he's a simple blacksmith!". I always found it funny as hell, considering the level of education, sheer breath of knowledge and capability a good blacksmith must have.
blacksmith isn't really the same thing as an armorer or blade smith, or jeweler. Blacksmith usually would refer to a peasant who makes simple everyday things - like a modern day farmer who fixes his equipment, but is quite far from an engineer designing an engine. But yeah, you do have a point, I'm just nit picking.
Blacksmiths lived on the outskirts of society in Europe. They were pretty low in social classes
Luckily for you, Ilya has a good section of his "bloom vs wootz" video dedicated to the lack of education and low standing of blacksmiths. Go watch that video too if you haven't already. It's an interesting perspective.
Your thinking of a specialist, generally smiths worked on everyday items like nails and horseshoes or bands for wagon wheels or barrels. I guess the word artisan describes your idea of a blacksmith
@@xanthopoulos1825 In the context of PotC it'd also include the people who made metal fittings for ships. Hinges look easy to make, but just try making one by hand. Not sure about cannons though.
Modern smiths: "Beard armour yields no combat advantage."
Ancient smiths: "But we're going to do it anyway!"
Case in point, aesthetics aren't always the most effective or efficient thing, but if you are going to fight, why not look good?"
>Aesthetics aren't efficient
Well they don't have to be they serve no porpuse aside from looking cool examples are horned helmets
@@lucifermorningstar181 its basically the rule of cool in steel form
The best armor had both
The video is highly misleading, From a limited scope and ill informed. You see a lot of mixing of parade or decorative costumes, sporting dress and battlefield dress. Adding decorations like beards does not decrease practicality, it's just an ornament on an already functional and practical piece.
@@lucifermorningstar181 But Horned helmets seem to have been basically absent from actual combat, which would make them an example of why his argument is poorly formed.
plz make more of these types of videos... theyre pretty awesome, and informative as hell!
"Engravings give you no tactical advantage whatsoever"
A nipple to surpass the metal gear
Maybe on weapons
But on armor it might intimidate your opponent thinking you're a higher ranking soldier, therefore more skilled
Bullshit they give a +1 to invulnerable saves against undead, demons, fiends and fey creatures. Good choice for low dexterity melee fighters.
I hope @Lindybeige sees this and it convinces Lloyd to add a Magnum codpiece to his armor.
That would cock up the design!
a lesson in history and philosophy from a blacksmith on TH-cam.. wow... just wow... awesome video Ilya, keep up the great job ;o) Best regards from Slovakia
tweet it out to them!
I suppose a modern equivalent would be a suit, or for women, a dress. Is a suit practical? No, not really. It's too delicate for most physical endeavors, and extreme motion is usually restricted unless it is tailored very specifically with that in mind. A suit is not even very practical for less physical work. They are often hot, and can be somewhat restrictive even when just sitting around in them. There are many other forms of clothing that are less expensive, easier to move in, more durable, and more comfortable. These points also apply to dresses for women, in many cases more so. Why then do we wear suits and dresses? Because a well-tailored suit looks *damn* good. A suit highlights the physical form of the wearer, though perhaps in a more subtle way, adding an implicit sexual connotation. The craftsmanship inherent in it and the quality of the material add cost, so a suit also communicates wealth, and therefore power. A suit is also seen as classy, making the wearer appear more erudite and well-rounded. In effect, a suit performs all of the functions that armour used to. A dress also does this for women.
This is a brilliant comparison.
There's a reason we call them both suits.
No offense but you've clearly never worn a sun dress on a summer day. They are comfortable, not restrictive at all and cool to wear. A long skirt on a cool day actually is very warm and extremely confortable too. What you're thinking about are the fashionable dresses, business suits and formal gowns. They are the restrictive and sexy ones. You should try a kilt. It's sexy on a man and you'll understand why we women like dresses and skirts.
A Suit of today yes. But at the earlier conception a suit would equalize everyone to look "same" so people would concentrate on the work. Same like school uniforms.
@@MeilinII That was the exact comment I was going to make, word for word.
I would very much love too see you guys do a historical style video once every two weeks or so this is enjoyable to listen too while I work
I'm pretty sure this is too much effort to do this every other week. I would definitely like to see more of it.
@@_aullik well not really considering this guys know most of it off the top of their heads plus I heard they have their own personal library of books on the subject so wouldn't need too go out and get them for research unless its a really odd book you need
Hopefully at least once a month!
I don't know why this video didn't show up before in my feed, but I think this is one of the most satisfying history videos in TH-cam I've seen in the past years. I mean the prose, the script, the voice... This is a top notch documentary! Profesional quality! And I'm subscribed to most Historytubers...
I love this. As an industrial designer, I've always took the effort to make things that are both beautiful (form) and useful (function). One is never more than the other, and your take on practicality resonates with my view of design. Even the Islamic arms and armor you showed exuded what they viewed to be beautiful (within their own understanding of artistic value) while being useful.
Pity that industrial design has lost the beauty of earlier periods. Compare the Customs Office in Nashville TN to any modern government building, the pulleys that were sold in the 1800's and 1920s with their s curves to anything made today. Form is under presented.
@@scottsammons7747 Like many things, form is a matter of style and style comes and goes with each era. The quality of what is aesthetically pleasing in one generation maybe different than in another. Aesthetics has always been a hard concept to codify because of this. While the Customs House in Nashville is indeed a beautiful piece of architecture, one has to learn to appreciate the aesthetics from which period a piece of art and/or design comes from.
Some Chinese officer's armours were designed to accentuate that the wearer was well fed. They were even called fat coats. I only happen to know this because I'm building a Ming dynasty armour and did some research.
Great presentation, Илья. Well thought out and well worded. Especially considering it's not your native language. I'm sure English barely feels foreign anymore, but I just wanted to mention it.
Perfectly balanced like all things should be.
Ilya speaking so well the automatic subtitles are 90% correct, making them easyly translatable, is very apreciated ! Thanks for the good work, it was a very interesting video !
I really enjoyed this... and it is very inspirational seeing you guys be so involved in not only your crafts but the history of it as well. Keep it up!
This completely opened my eyes and makes me enjoy so many fantasy female armors in a way I wouldn't have thought before. Please do more of these from more cultures!
Discussion/lecture with Professor Ilya? HELL YEAH.
Ilya. THAT WORKS for me.Great insight into history. Thank you.
THAT WORKS as a hell of a history lesson! Awesome job Ilya
I was not expecting a grounded lecture on art history when I clicked on this video. I regret nothing
You have proven yourself both an excellent craftsman, as well as an excellent scholar.
Keep up the great work!
Wow. Came with no expectations, thinking I'll just take a look for a few seconds, and boom. I watched it all.
Amazing work !
Being an aspiring illustrator, these are invaluable information, so thank you so much!
And I would like to say, having Ilya react to movie weapons and armor would be a great thing to watch 👌
This was brilliant! A wonderful surprise and great to see a demonstration of different (or extended) skill sets from you guys.
Thank you Ilya for this educational and interesting historical talk! I look forward to more of these.
I don't know of any other channel that offers this incredibly informative content. Keep it up guys, I'm hooked.
Shadiversity and skallagrim maybe?
Finally! I used to watch your work a lot before and only recently A friend told me about this and I'm hooked back
Thumbs up to a weel-prepared history lesson. Definitely would love to see more of this kind.
By far one of the most elucidating and educating comments on estetics and practicality of fashion, armour, competiion and presentation I have seen so far.
Excellent overview, Ilya! If I were still teaching military history and classical strategy, I'd assign this to my students. Very nicely done!
That’s some psychoanalytic anthropology right here!
Enjoyed the vid, keep it up!
Beautiful video Ilya. I love this insides of a person with a passion for his craft
Luis arevalo thank you! A lot of research time goes into these videos!
Awesome Video Ilya!!! THANKS!!!
Ilya's toting a big fricking torch, and is trailblazing the way for more genuine discussion.
Thank you for your service. That really Works. 😁
I wish I could give this more than 1 thumbs up. I really appreciate the way it was presented and the explanations of why armor grew so elaborate.
I am currently working on a rule set for a D&D like game for my friends and me to play with.
In that I had a discussion with someone about armor and their values. This video wasn't just great it also proved my point so thanks a lot!
You are awesome please keep up the good work!
I appreciate your depth and ability to keep me intrigued. Love this history lesson.
Looks like I was right when I thought that not only were the arms and armor of our ancestors very practical, but amazingly artistic, and in a way, captivating.
I love how you pointed out that in the minds of the elite in ye goode olde days was that practicality, sexuality, education, and art weren't separated in their minds.
It's no wonder the whole "Knight in Shining Armor" thing has stuck with us for hundreds of years. Great piece, Ilya!
Sir, I was browsing Alex Steele's channel -thinking about forging and swords, all that jazz- and one of your project videos showed up on the recommended. That particular video honestly didn't seem that interesting, but I'm always down for more smithing videos, so I browsed your uploads instead. Once I saw the length of this video, and the documentary-like title, I figured I'd watch and see what's what.
Absolutely amazing. Well and truly. Fine work here sir. To put it simply I just about learned a whole new way of looking at some things, a way of thinking. I'm astounded and hope you have more content like this, I'll go browsing now
That was awesome! Super informative, would love to see more!
Thank you for bringing this subject to light, in these modern times. As an armourer myself, I agree with you on the entirety as a whole. Especially on the modern portrayal and forgetful nature of people. Thank you again.
More videos of this type/style, please! I really like it! Entertaining and educational, also makes you think some things way different afterwards... :)
Дружище ты лучший кузнец в мире!👏🤝
Hey, this is great. You did a great job guys. Need more of this, thanks.
Only stumbled upon it today, but this was awesome. Ilya is a craftsman and a scholar I would love to hear more from!
This video was awesome. It was really nice to see the "arms and armour" counterpart to the history and art classes I had at school.
Just stumbled on your page while watching your other work on Man At Arms Reforged. INSTANT FAN.
I have a new respect for the idea of practicality. Thank you, because that works :)
That was a very fun and informative video! I'd love to see a video discussing the equivalent of Japanese armor, or a video discussing more "practical" tools being made into improvised weapons in history.
Hi Ilya, you did a fantastic job in this video. I always enjoyed watching you work on historical builds and this video was very interesting even more so because im studying to be a history teacher. Keep up the great work! Greetings from the Netherlands!
Most excellent class Professor Ilya. I think this was an enlightening trek in the wonderful world of Arms and Armor. I really look forward to more of these type video's. I am impressed by your wealth of knowledge. Keep them coming. Thank you :0) Dan
I so thoroughly enjoyed this video I love education videos. I can't wait to see your next educational video. Teach me master Ilya.
This video is excellent! I knew some of this stuff, but it's totally different to hear it from an actual armorer. Love you guys and the work you do :)
Thanks for the stream! It was educational and entertaining.
Man I could watch lectures like this all day please give us more!
honestly, these talks are way better than any other vids you guys do. PLEASE do more of these Ilia is Fantastic
Ilya is fantastic at all presentations. I have been a hobby blacksmith since 1975, never made my living at it, but I never see Ilya at work without learning more.
Very, very well done, Ilya. I enjoyed this very much!
Well versed and researched way to present a point. I had to review my ideas about this topic, and that's always interesting and educational. Thank you for taking the effort...
"The numbers decrease up until mythical year 0".
I tip my hat to you, good sir...
I also have to say that it took me to my high school art history classes, and it felt amazing. Keep 'em coming!!!!
That was awesome. Thank you Ilya for this amazing presentation.
Best part of my day so far
Great work, interesting video, you guys are showing some real versatility with this channel, keep it up
I have followed you since Man at Arms and am glad you started these blogs about the armor and swords. After doing research and study before rambling. As some others do. Keep it up
That's where he's from, explains his opinion on the matter as he's probably not had to forge many armours for people who actually compete in full contact fights with armour.
Worldofarmor armorsmith is a much more valuable resource on this topic. Like this guy don't put any more stock into what he says than what is reasonable and earned but that guy actually makes functional armour for people who actually need to protect themselves. Ian of 'Knyght errant', much, much better source than this guy.
Okay this is some seriously great content from you guys, prof. Ilya is perfect.
Wow. This is am awesome episode. Turn this into a series, really educational.
Loved this. I had an art teacher who taught me that "fashion follows function, function does not follow fashion." meaning that function always should come first, and then you pretty it up, but his point was specifically that both are important, and they almost ALWAYS show up together, especially in the art and craft of past civilizations, and especially the ones that we put up on pedestals as having been great or important cultures.
As you demonstrated, civilizations always get to a point where the fashion becomes more important, but the practicality is never completely abandoned, it only becomes superseded by the fact that culture, fashion, and/or education become better weapons. Honestly the only problem I've ever had with fantasy arms and armors is that they tend to be unrealistically large and would be unmanageable heavy. I've never felt that critics of "boob armor" have ever concretely proved that such a design would be dangerously impractical. The arguments I've heard have only ever been thought experiments by non-experts, though I have never read the article referenced, so I'm hardly in a place to refute it myself. But everything I've learned from my background in art and art history seem to agree with Illia's point, that had women routinely participated in the physical fighting wars in our history, that it is probable that armors that showed them as being sexy, that highlighted their physical attributes, would have most likely been a thing that happened.
Also Shadiversity has some videos with good arguments for the existence of boob armor as well.
He didn't demonstrate, what he said was nonsense and his examples demonstrate either being deliberately selective or totally ignorant. What's practical to wear at a social gathering to impress people and in combat on horseback aren't the same thing. What's practical in a foot tournament and while operating a firearm in a siege isn't the same thing.
He always took his examples out of context and pretended they were for all contexts. His 'practical armour designs' aren't so practical when your in foot combat with a formation of pikes or polearms that can easily penetrate your armour. You're wearing heavy, very expensive decoration at that point.
Boob armour is functional. Very unlikely it would have been worn as protection against lances or firearms though. Mail armour is very practical and functional, very unlikely it'd be your first choice against a formation of polearms, against warbows or lances. Plate armour is very functional and practical, very unlikely it'd be your first choice as part of a modern tank crew.
Amazing videos. Please, do more of them. Would be great if you make some videos about Slavic arms and armour.
Thanks Ilya, you are a true Renaissance Man.
More of this is very much appreciated. By the way, Ugo Serrano's work reflects a lot of thos elaborate renaissance armors. I love that.
What a fantastic video. Extremely informative, thank you so much!!
Spacibo Ilya ,
for the in depth and fascinating essay on warrior armour catfishing .
Hey, this is really well presented and interesting! Thank you Ilya!
Really enjoyed your take on history, going to need a channel just dedicated to this type of subjects, would be nice!
a very educational video, with the right tones.
having had an education in art history, I really enjoyed the study of the armor in parallel with the history. thanks for your content.
This was super insightful, thank you!
Brilliant content, it was the highlight of my day, love from Scotland.
Very interesting lecture. It's very compelling how different is our current view on arms and armor than the ancient, or medieval was. And furthermore on art and ideas as well.
Fun fact about linguistics: Oikos, referring to the private dimension of life, means something along the lines of "home" or "the place where the hearth is" (going on high school Acient Greek class memories, here) and most likely is the root of the word "economy", that would mean something like "the organizing of the things that pertain home".
It is the ultimate root of the word "economy". The word comes from the title of a book: ᾽Η Οικονομια.
Roughly translated, that title means "the affairs of the home". It was the first book primarily aimed at women. It was intended as a guide for women being married into wealthy households from middle-class ones: as wealth disparities started to grow in the 4th Century BCE. A middle class family at the time might have a few servants, but a noble or royal household could have hundreds. The differences between what a middle class family could afford, and what a noble or royal family could afford was also tremendous: and over the course of the Hellenstic Era this disparity only got bigger. In the 5th Century BCE, a dyed soft woolen cloak was a mark of distinction. A diadem made of copper or bronze and set with semiprecious stones, was a true mark of power: something only a King could have. A truly great King would have a household of maybe a hundred servants: the average (for a ruler!) was more like twenty. By the end of the 3rd Century, Greek Kings and Queens wore silk and diamonds. Their households were the size of small cities. Just shopping for the house was a complex art in itself. Managing the complicated tiers of servants with their various functions was a full time job, akin to being the CEO of a large company. And that job was done by a woman. Unlike in Persia, Greek rulers did not delegate the job of household management to a servant-overseer. Greeks valued the home and household too highly to let someone from outside the family oversee it. Thus this book written for social climbers, detailed things like how to not get scammed, how to recruit good staff, how to make a schedule, how to measure quantities and ration staple items etc. You know, business. Economics.
Fantastic video. Thank you for clearing all of this up. Really important information
So, essentially, when designing arms and armor in art, think about the beliefs and values of the culture that developed the arms and armor, as well as the individual who will be wearing it, instead of *just* choosing aesthetic details that you personally enjoy. And, y’know, make it look good
That was awesome you have a keen insight into history i never knew watching your aweme videos.love the new channel
Growing up i have always been in awe of blacksmiths and historical warfare in general. Three times a year i get to work at an event called the Lost Trades Fair where we always have an Armorer, blade smith, farrier etc doing practical demonstrations. Its amazing how they are all called blacksmiths by the general public and i try to educate them but some just don't care. When on breaks, Im always fixated at the forge or power hammer or anvil. Havent got to swing a hammer though but maybe one day. This vid has filled in some blanks in my knowledge and look forward to more like it.
P.S i have dropped a major hint to my partner for a That Works hoodie to wear to the next Lost Trades Fair in March next year. hoping to get that order away soon
Professor Ilia comin' in hot. This was super informative and just downright interesting to watch
Thanks for taking the time to put this together. Very interesting topic
once you come back to the channel, could you please make another video like this about the bronze age? this is such a fascinating culture/topic, and you seem so educated in it.
Awesome lecture. Bookmarking it in case I need to use it in a discussion someday. 😊👍
That was a great lecture and a much needed reminder. Thanks alot!
I studied Art History and was fortunate enough to be able to do some research at the Fitwilliam collection in Cambridge, I currently teach at.a German university. The information and interpretation given in this presentation is of a very high standard both practical and scholarly. There are areas which could be expanded upon but the current social media output and Hema should learn from this.
That FPS is beautiful. I'm in love.
I did not know what happened to you guys! I wasn't aware of Awe Me's Issues! So much Time spent on it, I was wondering what happened, but did not know.
I'm glad you guys got your own Channel!
Excellent content, interesting context. I look forward to more in this vein
Came for cool armor, left with an art history lecture. Cheers Illya, it was educational!
This video is pretty great. Love your content, guys!
That was a very well thought out and damn good video. Really the only fantasy armors that are ridiculous are like the Bikini armors that leave all of the midriff and legs exposed. But than again you can look back to roman gladiatorial armor for a similar aesthetic. That armor was made not so much as to protect the wearer but to show of the combatants body while giving them something showy and cool "for the time" to wear.
You've been misled by the video and are now parroting it's BS. Most fantasy designs are impractical because you physically can not move and fight in them and they offer substantially less protection.
Being covered head to toe in top notch armour was a luxury very few in the last 50,000 years have been afforded, especially before the late middle ages. Armour that leaves parts exposed is not 'impractical' or 'non functional' or 'less practical', it was a reality for most who fought.
Seems like you're the only one spouting bullshit.
Yes most didn't wear plate because plate was expensive but they had gambesons, chain, and brigindines. Plus in places like Greece and Rome the military was paid for by the government so everyone had armour of that time period.
The point of the video isn't fantasy armour is realistic. The point is fantasy armour designed around the female form isn't inherently unrealistic.
Thank you for this discussion. I really enjoyed it.