ah the good oldie, nuke it to hell. I SEE!!! yeah. I think part of the issue besides Palpatine fucking with everyone and Dooku actually knowing they were coming in his own way was that the jedi diddnt want to, you know genocide the place and the genosians, they underestimated the droid numbers, diddnt know what they were walking into and all that.
Mace Windu: I feel it would be better if we launch an aerial assault. Yoda: Retarted you are. Land we will and show of our sexy army we shall. Windu: ...
The Republic had tactics? Pretty sure they just dropped all their troops in a field and told them to go get 'em. As for your tactics, before watching this video, I thought to myself, "Why didn't the Republic just smash and grab the jedi, retreat to orbit, and bombard the Separatists into submission?" Glad to see I wasn't the only one who thought so. As you say though, it's a particularly brutal strategy, and if the CIS can portray Geonosian drones as innocent civilians, the destruction and death rained from orbit may lead systems to joining the Confederacy much how Tarkin's brutal actions led systems to the Rebellion.
Geonosians live underground and most of their structures and foundries are essentially bunkers. I think they can tank a few weeks of orbital bombardment, at least until they muster all of their space assets from elsewhere and start slamming your blockade like there's no tomorrow.
Republic's lack of effective strategy could probably be attributed to Palpatine. Had Geonosis been taken and neutralized, the war would have been short and decisive, preventing Palpatine from building his power base and carrying out his plans.
So basically, Palpatine ordered the Jedi and the Clone trooper military forces to land their ground forces for a land battle and have their cruisers leave orbit?
@@kofola9145 I strongly disagree the demorilization of the destruction of leadership would have scared the remaining leadership off world along with an overwhelming victory nd the leadership being killed would have brought them closer to the table for peace talks
I'm going to defend the Republic here. Remember, Geonosisians are a primarily underground species, and the planet itself is probably the most Base Delta Zero-resistant imaginable. Keeping the Acclamators in orbit and depending on LAATs for troop deployment, while offering a better blockade (and potentially preventing the leadership's escape) dramatically slows down the deployment. The core of the canon strategy was a brutal lightning strike to overwhelm the enemy using the element of surprise before the droid factories could be put fully to work. Your strategy seems like it converts the blitzkrieg into a siege, which is fine, but I feel that if the battle took a few days or weeks, the Separatists could muster up enough ships to push the Republic fleet back. More core ships might have been destroyed, but no leadership capture, no planet capture and no stopping the Geonosis foundries, all while the GAR is tied up around a single planet as war breaks out everywhere else. That might not happen, but there's a good chance that it would.
Michael Ramon The Empire resorted to chemical weapons to wipe out the Geonosians, when their typical MO is a planetary invasion with a Base Delta Zero as a last resort.
And the chemical weapons didn't even 100% work! I don't like using bug metaphors regarding insectoid species, but the Geonosians are at least as hard to stomp out as cockroaches are.
I think that one of the big problems for the Republic is that they were operating under time pressure, so they had to improvise their way through a lot of the battle. One explanation for why they focused on deploying their ground forces could be that, given the Separatists vast numerical superiority, they might have feared that a smaller force would be insufficient to rescue the Jedi. They could have supported them with their fleet, but there's a limit to how close you can put your fire support to your troops without causing friendly fire. And the Separatist troops were very close to the Jedi, and in quite heavy numbers. A solution could have been to send the Acclamators down in waves, and then return them to orbit once the clones were off the ships, after which the next wave would be sent down, etc. That way the majority of the Acclamators would always be in orbit. Of course this would mean that the ground troops would only arrive slowly, and that runs the risk of them, once again, being insufficient to deal with the Separatists. My guess is that they wanted their forces on the ground as quickly as possible, and in as many numbers as possible, and the Republic fleet couldn't get back in orbit quickly enough to stop the majority of the Separatist fleet that survived the ground assault from escaping.
Also, this is not a battle they were expecting to fight YESTERDAY. Well, I guess it's possible that Anakin and Padme were in enemy custody for a few days, but not any longer than that. Even if they had been gearing up and preparing to deploy for a while in anticipation that the Separatist Crisis was about to explode, they would have had no idea that Geonosis was the target - no one did until Obi-wan followed Jango there. The army was deployed, for their first real combat EVERY, essentially blind. It's a true testament to the skill of the clones, the power of surprise and the might of a few dozen Jedi in one place that they were able to take the planet at all.
I agree. I'd also like to add the Republic probably weren't expecting the CIS to have a MASSIVE droid army waiting to fight them. The Clone army was literally organized yesterday/ last week, and all the Republic knew beforehand was that a bunch of systems led by a disillusioned fallen Jedi wanted to break off the Republic. They had no idea the CIS was already building up an army RAPIDLY. They probably thought their objectively superior Clone army was enough to take out the CIS on Geonosis, but ended up overestimating the logistics and allowed the CIS command to escape.
While all true. The CUE was ACTUALLY genuinely SURPRISED at the ferocity and SIZE of the Clone forces that launched such an all out heavy attack on them. It was basically a space Clone War equivalent of D-Day an while mostly poorly coordinated the Clones delivered and the CIS got their asses handed to them. Dooku we all notice along with the other CUE leadership was a lot more careful in future engagements. As was their enemies. Had he tried to bail like he did much later he'd probably been caught or shot down. Opting to be more classic suddenly vanished bad guy a lot the time from then on or fight his way out trying to get away fast as possible I guess after getting his wake up call. Grevious also did that a ton as well. Least both side's tactics slowly improved in later fights somewhat most the time
may I add, the surprise in the CIS is genuine, so maybe the troops could have already grounded a few waves of the acclamators before being noticed. Carefully aimed, they shouldnt be overwhelmed that easily, and I say it because, really, the jedi were turning the lightsabers in the middle of the arena, right next to freaking count Dooku before the very fools even realized they were being attacked. if thats the level of security where your leaders are, the rest of the planet was an open landing zone probably
Also I feel like they were kinda just had it thrown at them, I always felt like the majority of the Senate say the jedi as pawns to solve their problems far before the clone wars.
Darth Vitiate- yeah Palpatine sure used that to his advantage. He wanted the Jedi to be seen as incompetent and war-mongering, always trying to start wars where there does not need to be. Of course, that was propaganda spewed by the CIS, but the CIS was the republic anyway. Tbh, the Jedi should’ve been smarter and removed themselves from the fighting, since they have emphasized time and again that they are keepers of the peace, and they can’t fight your wars for you. Literally every bad thing that could’ve went wrong, went wrong. Almost everything played into palpatines hands, even when he didn’t intend it to. The clone wars was the perfect storm
Vsause Puppet but it was a droid factory, not only did the republic not use droids, it would cost more resources then it would be worth to try and convert it to produce vehicles and starships
its not a law that held them back from using droids, it was the avaiability of the clone army. Nothing is holding them back to use Battledroids and clones combined. give them a paint job, code them for repupöic service and almost double your troops in a small time if you need to/have the resources.
DatGengariosboi let's not forget that the Trade Federation were the ones that originally built and programmed these droids, if they had some kind of signal or switch that could regain control of the droids (not saying they do, but look at it from a republic leader's perspective), then in the middle of battle half your fighting force could do a 180 and fire on your own men. Plus the fact that Geonosis is on the complete opposite side of the galaxy from republic control, so you'd need a sizable garrison to protect the factory, suppress the locals, ship food and materials to the factory and carry back the droids, it would be more trouble then it's worth just to add cannon fodder to your army
Your strategy makes total sense. This just shows that, not only the Jedi know nothing about fighting a war, but the Republic military doctrine is also antiquated.
I wouldn't say there doctrine was antiquated so much as, the ground attack on the seperatist ships was needed to be shown on screen to show the kick off of the clone wars, bombardment from space would have been cool, but been over much quicker, been far less dramatic and not only not involve any of the main characters, but not even put them in jeopardy, so once again less dramatic, so it seems the battle doctrine was created to be as dramatic as possible, almost as if they knew they were making a movie. :)
Mecha-san the Jedi and Republic having been in a major war since the days of the Old Republic. As a result the Jedi became docile and inexperienced at leading soldiers just look at the stark-hyperspace war, and the Mandalorian Civil War
There is a big flaw in your strategy. While they could base delta zero you mentioned that their basses had shields. As a cis supreme commander I would have imediately pull every important leader to the most secure basses and wait for help. Decoys and distractions would be used so you cant focus fire the building I send everyone to. We wait it out till the lucrehulks arrive and then I would attempt to make you think we got only a small ship to escape with the rest of the ships arriving as you take the bait. Aclamators are not very potent ship to ship vessels..I think a lucrehulk can distract you enough for me to make my actual escape. This entirely relies on how much can our base shields last.
I have to agree here. While, yes, the GAR does have orbital superiority at the time of the attack's beginning, the CIS definitely had ships elsewhere that would be brought in if the battle dragged on. While the acclamators did have some cruiser capabilities and weapons, primarily they were troop transports. If even a small force of actual warships arrived at Geonosis, the acclamators would have started dropping like flies. And, with that fleet essentially containing the entire clone army that was not in training still, losing it would basically mean handing the war to the CIS on as silver platter. A quick, overwhelming offensive was the strategy they needed to take the planet and defeat the forces there. I've been going over different potential strategies in my head, and ultimately though, anything that gives the CIS time to bunker down into defensive positions is too much of a risk. I would say proceed with the all out ground assault (though if I had my way it would be with actual military commanders in charge instead of Jedi acting as generals, keep them to their own skill set and use them for elite special forces) but leave just a couple of accumulators in orbit to provide bombardments to take out the grounded CIS spacecraft, and assist the ground forces. Once the other ships had unloaded their troops and re-entered orbit they could land if the ground battle needed reinforcements, or stay in orbit if the CIS ships were getting close to escaping.
that is like playing full Raddus on TLJ lol. good, but you could rather counter, with the lucrahulks on the air, just unload the droids you were saving for future encounters, there will be time to load them back when the battle is won
Lol I literally was thinking the same thing just hold off the acclimators before they rain fire like with some dreadnoughts or vulture droids and wait for more reinforcements in the air because if you deploy say 30% troops and jedi and overload in the air I will be more worried about an Ariel assault and focus my strategies and firepower in the sky and say if the republic were to retreat we would have more support because ships would be coming out of hyperspace
I know this would be difficult, but can you breakdown what is by far the largest space battle in the entire franchise? *The* *Battle* *of* *Yuuzhan'tar!* I have made this request: thirty-three times.
You mean the Battle of Coruscant. I don't care if the Vong occupied Coruscant and named it Yuuzhan'tar, I will never recognize that name anymore then Thrawn recognized the New Republic.
You forgot how a few saboath cruisers came out of hyperspace to bombard the republic, but adi gallia, along with a small pirate group including the tritus stopped the bombardment and got rid of the trihexalon (star wars: jedi starfighter)
Yeah, The Jedi of the clone wars are horrible generals. In war, the objective is to kill the enemy. The Jedi cannot accomplish that without betraying their ideals. Previous Jedi in legends seemed to be able to balance the need to defeat the enemy without betraying their ideals (General Hoth comes to mind, though there was a bit were it was close)
If I had to guess, there were probably nimodeans on the ships. We saw them crewed by them during episode 1. I don't believe the Trade federation would've made them completely autonomous. The Jedi would be wary of killing them. They shouldn't, but they would.
well no the CIS still had more troops but the problem is that they weren't prepared for a attack so they weren't deployed in time and were mostly focused on getting them the fuck out instead of trying to deploy them
It sounds good until you consider the fact that the C.I.S. most likely had munificents in orbit (From the Banking Clan.) which would have been more than a match for Aclamators which are little more than glorified transports.
Lil Colgate Vert San Hill was at the meeting and he decided to bring Banking Clan hellfire droids so, it would be plausible for him to also bring in munificents.
I think there are several issues with your strategy. Some of which were actually addressed (although not directly) within the movie. The first and foremost is that a good portion of the Geonosian factories were underground. You'd be able to disable the lucrehulks and techno union ships, but without destroying the factories...well we saw what happened in Star Wars Clone Wars Season 2 and the Landing at Point Rain. Second, consider the implications if the Republic were to completely level Geonosis. How would that look on the holonet? With the Separatist Crisis in full swing, if the Republic had leveled the planet, the Separatists could have easily used that event to generate support. I mean the Separatists were already open to chemical attacks and blaming them on the Republic (Battle of Ohma-D'un), they'd have definitely used a Republic bombardment for their own political advantage. Countless systems would have joined them, easily furthering the Separatist cause. Overall, cool video though. Just saying that a lot of people forget that military strategy also coincides with political strategy, and that's what I love most about the Clone Wars. Some of the tactics may not make sense from a military perspective, but you also have to analyze the political reasoning behind certain strategies. Would bombing Geonosis into oblivion have worked? Yeah, probably. The Republic could have starved them out, but it would not have worked in the Republic's overall strategy (ignoring Palpatine's own strategy). Countless systems would have joined the Separatist's who would have been seen as the victims of "Republic imperialism".
The one thing that no one acknowledges in the tactics is that Palpatine/Sideous wanted a prolonged war. His plan was to have most of the CIS forces escape...and it worked.
“The Jedi are useless in space” wow that’s an ignorant assumption. Plo Koon and Adi Gallia as well as Master Tiin were known for being amazing pilots and deadly in space combat.
On a Fighter to Fighter basis jedi were very deadly, sure, but against Lucrehulks and other Warships there isnt that much a jedi starfighter can do. Jedi are way more decisive on the Ground than they are in space i would argue.
Your strategy makes really sense. Honestly I don't know how to counter it. Maybe there is a way, but you have to know in advance of the attack preventing the Republic to find you without trousers. In this situation the only possible solution to your tactics would have been to flee, maybe sacrificing something in order to save something else. The ground battle, even if "beautiful" (not from a tactical point of view) is totally useless. A such huge defeat would have certainly scattered CSI for some time. > 99% of jedi > Strategic thinking Pick one
I think the reason for a ground-focus was emphasized for two-things ---Jedi migt not have been used to a brutal stategy (as said). ---Palpatine wasn't ready for the war to end (as said). ---For a live experiment of the effectivity of Clones. Countering your tactics: ---Loss is inevitable. Any counter-attack would result in annihilation, regardless of how effective it could possible turn out. With this in mind, the idea is to hurt the Republic as much as possible, while escaping with the leadership. ---The leadership would leave on smaller, faster ships, leaving as soon as possible, hopefully escaping prior to a blockade. ---Put as much of my forces as possible underground, forcing you to at somepoint make a ground invasion. ---If any capital ships land too close, they would become primary targets, for stealing or simply destruction. ---Hold out as long as possible relying on pincer movement and guerrila warfare. ---If enough CIS ships were available, I would use it as a strike force to open up the blockade. If even more was available, then possibly a full counter-attack. I doubt however, that enough was available.
Darth Vader I'm not a rebel i'm a good friend of your boss, and he told me you didn't like the sand on Geonosis. By the way your son kissed your daughter.
Also, didn't the Republic still have some old Mandators in service, which while outdated could probably still have brought a good deal of firepower to the table? I would have used these heavy assets in a attempted decapitation strike against the CIS leadership.
Marcus Tullius Cicero they were parked at Kuat (property of KDY). It would take too long (negotiations and travel to the frontlines) to be used effectively at Geonosis
While I do agree with the counter strategy applied here, the tactics that were used weren't actually that terrible and have been used in similar situations in modern war. El Alamain is an example, where the British used artillery to soften up German lines before hitting them with en mass infantry and tank assaults, often in conjuncture. When you look at the battle, we see something similar. The Republic uses its air superiority to bombard the droid lines and assault the enemy in rapid blitzkrieg with tanks and infantry supporting each other. Because time is of the essence as they need to destroy grounded starships, they have to take ground quickly. If anything, the tactics are not the problem. The problem is the equipment brought to this battle. The only vehicle they have is a slow moving walker that is easily destructible to missiles. Had the Republic had access to Juggernaut and Saber Tanks instead, they likely would've been able to smash through the enemy lines with much less casualties. Combine this with direct firemissions with the Acclimators and you could've crushed the droid army on the planet.
The Acclamator is a transport ship, similar to the big landing ships of WW2. Which landed (dunno how to say in English) on the beach, opened a huge door to release tanks and troops. Also don't forget the heavy artillery. I doubt they would have been able to drop another way. The best strat would have been mixing a land assault like in the movie, with air superiority with some acclamators to prevent any escape
As a counter to your strategy, I am assuming that I have to use what is available, and can't just say I'd have a shield, so here's what I would do. I would have heavily defended the anti-orbital cannons, as they are the only way I could keep the Republic Fleet at bay. I don't know how well defended they were, but it is clear that it was not enough. I would have had my available Navy in orbit, and not grounded, to allow for my troops to retreat if needed without risk of Republic interception, and immediately had my major leaders retreat from the planet the moment Republic Ships came out of hyperspace (which would have been much easier to detect with even a small Navy in orbit) as to avoid loosing such pivotal figures. Even if Republic ships managed to get past my defensive fleet, enough small fighters would have been destroyed to stop a ground assault on the Anti-Orbital Cannons, forcing any ground assault on them to have Republic fighters to come within range to deploy troops. This would be the only way for the Republic to stop a full evacuation at the very least, as they would be forced too far out by the cannons to form a blockade. Even then, a retreat would be unnecessary, as many more droids could be produced by the time Republic ships could dismantle the cannons, and by the time Republic reinforcements came, a planetary shield could have been constructed, and a much larger CIS Navy could have been launched, forcing the Republic into a much worse position. Another option would be to have small fighter squads to be launched to attack important Republic outposts in other sectors, as they would be barely defended in the early stages of the war, as the Republic hadn't properly deployed the Clone Army yet. And once again, even if my plan to stop the Republic had failed, it would allow my troops to be in a great position to retreat, and my key figureheads would already be evacuated. If I was unable to evacuate, I would have used the Republic bombardment as a way of slandering the Jedi and Republic, to show how evil they were, indiscriminately bombarding a planet and hitting and killing many civilian populations.
Wow, I just saw that snippet of Battlefield 5 & I can see it’s set partly in Narvik Norway. I used to live nearby in Sweden and recognize the terrain around the town. Amazing job.
I'm not convinced orbital bombardment would work for a few reasons. The Republic forces only know where the Lucrehulk's were and the surface factories and structures were. The vast majority of the industry and populace of Geonosis was deep underground thus protected against the admittedly limited weapons of the Acclamators. I see the only way to win is a balls to the walls assault with everything you have. I think the best tactic to be employed by the Republic (ignoring mace windu's assault of the arena) is to save the remaining Jedi in the same way. The Clones drop down and lead a forlorn hope assault on the Droids with little regard for casualties. Instead of the Acclamator's staying in orbit or keeping their distance i'd make them give close air support directly in atmosphere above the battle, this would give a huge firepower bonus and could even block many Lucrehulk's taking off. The droids might even shoot down a few cruisers but that just draws away fire from the clone spearhead. I would leave a fraction of the cruisers in orbit to destroy the Lucrehulk 'rings' with bombers and cruisers alike. The Jedi Split into two groups with clone escorts; first sets off to hunt down the head of the snake and the second goes after the CIS leadership. I'd use the Jedi as shock troopers and assassins. The aim of this is to bog down the CIS into a fight they can't leave as i believe the republic has initiative and superiority. The ground campaign would be blobby but with the turbo laser fire from the Acclamator's it would render the tight formations of the enemy an advantage for the republic.
друг honestly that’s a better utilisation of the Jedi in general. They’re skilled warriors, but most of them were shit commanders, therefore organizing them into their own units is better than having them command the clones (actual trained soldiers.)
Great video as always, and you are right Republic tactics were a mess, but yours have holes too. Republic: They should have had a much more varied fleet, maybe grab a few dreadnoughts or Corellian vessels, a Heave Hitter and something for screening the countless Droid starfighters those Lucerhulks carried. They also should have chosen different ground commanders rather than pacifist Jedi, BIG MISTAKE! Though landing the ships did help them defensively, as they could focus their shields in a single direction rather than worrying about attacks from multiply Directions. Mr. Ladder: 1: A base Delta Zero, would never have been approved by the Republic senate, who even with Emergency Powers Palpatine still answered too. 2: Turbolasers wouldn't be able to reach the Deep Catacombs were Many of the factories were located, so either way boots would have to have been on the ground to mop up. 3: At this time the largest militaries were the basically the Seps, and they could easily rally forces and catch the Republic in a pincer, if ships were left in orbit, Base Delta Zeros take time. ME: 1: Send in Special Forces/ Bounty Hunters to rescue prisoners, rather than sacrifice more Jedi and take out communications, and planet defence 2: Send in small number of Acclumators for Ground invasion, while flexible main Fleet provides orbital protection, bombardment, and to destroy ships in orbit. 3: Ground forces would set up defensive positions and wait for droid attacks while using long range artillery and ship based weapons to target landed ships, with support from orbit. 4: After initial resistance, and limitd bombardment on ships and factories ground forces break defense and move to destroy factories and mop up At least those are my ideas, keep up the good work.
Yeah your defiantly right about abusing air superiority. There isn't much you can do about that. But the way I would countered your tactic, since you asked, is when Anakin Skywalker and padame were caught going after obi-one, figuring out that others know your position and a republic attack is incoming isn't hard. From there I would order a small fleet to return to genesis and camp out in orbit. From there I would bait the Jedi, kill as many as can be safely killed and order the evacuation while simultaneously ordering some droids to pull a scorched earth campaine on military assets. Can't avoid a republic victory so I make it a strategic loss of possible.
Good video eck , and i think the best way to destroy the geonosian factories and defenses would be orbital bombardment with the aclamators then send the clones after all the droids are destroyed and occupy the planet. Even know the geonosians would be a problem but a surprise attack would catch them all off guard and destroy majority of the droids and geonosians , plus the core ships would also be destroyed and you can either kill the leaders or capture them but kill count dooku.
Even if your plan is implemented to prevent the escape of separatist forces, one of the biggest holdbacks is that some of the factories of Geonosis & other sensitive areas are so well shielded that base delta zero would have little to no effects (borrowing from “Republic Commando”). Yes, air superiority is essential, but having troops on the ground probably hid the special ops groups slipping into key target locations. As for the Acclamators, I’m guessing that the ones at the battle were actually unarmed, that they actually had no turbolasers nor were their torpedo tubes loaded. Sure they loaded up everything they could on Kamino, SPMAs, LAATs, AT-TEs, & more, but I’m definitely sure that this was done for #2: keeping a low profile & not advertise itself as an actual warship & #1: Palpatine deliberately made it so that the Clone Wars would go off without a hitch. However, shortly after the start, the Acclamators had their specifically designed & built weapons bolted onto their designated hard-points & their warhead tubes filled to capacity.
I typed “Specifically Designed & Built Weapons” towards the end because that is what most likely would’ve happened, Stephen M. Stouter. And these Acclamators were built more like Transports rather than dedicated Battleships & Carriers.
4:30 "there useless in space anyway" *cues the scene in space where Anakin Skywalker and obi wan kanobi board the separatist flagship and single handedly destroy it* then cues *STAR wars the clone wars episode where asoka comes up with a battle strategy that saves the republic fleet that's trying to retake a planet*
Your strategy makes perfect sense in that situation. To counter this I would have literally any think that the seperatists had in space. A couple of Munificent ships would have taken some of those carriers down
Your strategy make perfect sense. You’re using the republic navy perfectly. if ever studied the pacific theater of World War Two you would know that a navy unopposed can help out their troops significantly when it comes to an assault on targets. So I love the strategy
I remember in star wars jedi starfighter that a band of priates and other jedi had had to take care of some orbital hex weapons during the battle. other wise the ground forces would be decimated with Hex weapons.
I have to disagree. The republic at least used mixed-unit tactics even at the first invasion. And the second invasion did seem more planned out, if perhaps not properly prepared for given how thinly their resources were spread out, but that was a case of taking the whole planet rather than just the key cities and facilities that we saw with the capture of most other planets.
Great video, although Im gonna add one mora argument on the side of republic and why did they choose this strategy: As we see in a film, Jedi council just recieved a warning message from Obi-wan about Geonosis and they knew he was captured, so that they had to act quickly. I think that's why Mace Windu rushes with his strike team to save Anakin and Obi-wan, without thinking much about the tacticts. Also nobody in the Jedi order knew how excactly huge was clone army, what gear they had, what weapons and ships they use etc. (max Obi-wan, but he was captured.) Between capturing of Obi-wan and first clones arriving at the arena to rescue Jedi must have been like roughly 16 hours, so when Yoda came to Kamino he didn't inspect all the clone units and their weapons, he just get everyone who can packing and straight to Geonosis. I doubt there was much time for commanders to came up with some good strategy, also they probably didn't expect such resistance. They must have thought that this will be a quick mission: just land the forces, capture or destroy core ships and factories, capture a leadership and that's the end of rebelion. They coudn't foreseen so many droids on the surface.
That's not entirely true. They couldn't adapt to species 8472 because the biology was well outside anything the borg were familiar with. Borg Adaptation is not infallible, but it IS underestimated quite often. (the most common and self-evidently inane piece of reasoning being that borg are vulnerable to projectile weapons, based solely on what Picard did on the holodeck, even though prior evidence shows adaptation to a weapon takes somewhat longer than that scene took.) Problem with cross-universe comparisons is trying to establish a baseline for all the unknown factors. Some random things about star wars vs star trek in general: - How powerful are phasers & disruptors compared to turbolasers, etc? - Speed and limitations of Warp vs Hyperdrive. (notwithstanding weird niche things seen often in Star Trek that vastly exceed the regular speed scales) - Does an interdiction field work on warp drive? - Do star trek shields have any defensive value against star wars weaponry? - can a turbolaser track fast enough to hit even a 'large' star trek target like a galaxy class ship (or borg cube for that matter) - are fighters of any use against star trek ships. (see; Enterprise D destroying 6 fighter size targets in under 5 seconds.) - do star wars ray and particle shield protect against phasers, photons, distruptors and so on. Are they any more or less effective at this than the typical star wars weapons? - Does star wars shielding offer any protection whatsoever against transporters? There's an exceedingly long list of such things that you can come up with. Some of them are relatively easy to answer in a moderately objective manner. (warp vs hyperdrive for instance - hyperdrive wins by a landslide, but has some limitations that warp drive does not, though that offers little practical benefit to warp ships) Some are near impossible to answer meaningfully (eg. Transporters vs star wars shielding.) Some can be guessed at through secondary means, (turbolaser vs phaser firepower) but any such guess is subject to massive uncertainty. The list of such problems is so long it's almost impossible to properly compare such things without making a long list of relatively arbitrary assumptions. Even within a single universe you get questions like that though; - Eg. what are the limits of borg adaptation? - What are the Q incapable of doing? - is there a viable way to defeat the Krenim Temporal weapon that isn't basically a plot device/random luck? etc...
"...and I'll put forward what I would have done differently................... Well............. EVERYTHING!" Seriously though. your assessment is correct, they only needed enough boots on the ground to pull off the rescue and protect their escape, although I feel you idea needs one change, as the Republic had only just committing to war and was probably not ready to allow the bombing populated areas from space, so instead the Jedi and Clone ground forces would have been tasked with taking out the droid factories,at least any that were not isolated enough to be destroyed from space without collateral damage, while the bulk of the fleet rained fire down on the grounded separatist fleet and troop concentration. Splitting the fleet in this way wouldn't have caused any issues as most of the troops seemed to be dedicated to taking out the ships anyways, so without the need for them to do that they could have been held back as a reserve, while still committing a larger force to the attack on the factories, if it were needed.
I think the biggest issue is that they didn’t send their gunships or Acclamators to essentially block the core ships from leaving. The gunships could’ve landed their troops to the front line and then moved forward, hitting the core ships with their missiles and lasers. Without bombing them out of existence, they could’ve used the cruisers to block the coreships and blast them down as they left the surface, the core’s being pretty defenseless without the large ring-structure. Bombing the surface as you mentioned would’ve been far too brutal, and would’ve made the Republic seem far more aggressive than they are, plus the Jedi likely wouldn’t have wanted to do it and it would’ve been an issue between the Jedi and Republic.
True, but against the sheer numbers of the Separatists they can only do so much. Remember, Germany had the most and best aces in WW2, some of the most advanced fighters including the first jet fighters to be deployed in combat, but the Allies were the ones with the sheer numbers.
Not actually true Chakat. Germany had the best and most aces that is true. But the Allied Airforce was actually more advance for the entire war. The Spitfire was supreme in the battle of Britain despite being outnumbered and nothing could hold up against the P-51 Mustang. Even things like the famous Stuka were less effective then their counterparts like the IL-2. The difference is that in the early stages of the war, the Germans were just better trained with better tactics. Germany had the first jet fighter but the ME-262 which showed up very late in the war but thats one fighter at the very end that was not mass produced. Not really accurate to that Germany had the most advanced fighters in the war when its only 1 plane showing up for a few months. You want advance, Spitfire, P-51, B-17, B-29, IL-2, and ME-262 are all the planes you are looking for. And only 1 of those is German. Stuka is famous for pioneering tactics, not because it was more advance then its counter-parts
I'm just going to make the point that the superior fighter in the Battle of Britain was in fact the Hawker Hurricane, which was far more effective than the spitfire in that situation, as well as in other battles throughout the war.
Master Chief, the man who wiped out an entire armada vs. Boba Fett, the man who got wiped out by a blind guy. Who will die....laughing at how bad Boba Fett gets his ass kicked?
I like your idea of how you would do it differently. But to add to that what you could do, is Cycle the ships in orbit so you can keep landing more and more forces. So say for example 1st Fleet lands their Forces while 2nd & 3rd stay in orbit, than then after 1st offloads its forces cycle 1st and 2nd out so 1st and 3rd are in orbit while 2nd lands and so on.
Avery interesting and important view for the what would have been the most decisive battle in the Clone Wars. I'd still like to ad that the call for attacking Geonosis was very rushed, and they perhaps had no time to make a plan. They had no intel on the planet, it's surface, or fighting capabilities, so they perhaps rushed in to secure the rescue team/capture all Separatist leaders on ground?. Thank you for making this :)
Dear creator: love the channel, fastest I've ever subscribed and the only channel I receive notifications for. Given that...my issues with your analysis. At the beginning of the battle, the entirety of the intelligence that Yoda (I'm just gonna assume he is the planner of the battle as in the film) has at the start of the battle, the movie has you beat. The Republic has an intelligence asset (Kenobi) who has potentially vital knowledge of...something. Yoda doesn't know that there is a Separatist movement yet, just that something strange is going on and Kenobi is the key. Given this, it makes sense to dispatch special forces (Jedi) to retrieve that asset and determine the threat. The only reason to have a clone army in reserve must be due to Jedi magic, because there is no other way that Yoda could have known about the extent of the Separatist presence on Geonosis. This is comparable to a US spy reporting something odd from his post in Toronto and immediately going dark, so you send an elite team to find and extract him/her. The movie posits: That team finds the asset as well as evidence of an impending invasion force, so troops must be deployed to eliminate the threat. You posit: Spy goes dark, elite team dispatched while simultaneously raining death on the entire city for...reasons? Many Monday morning generals fall victim to the trap of perfect intelligence, but given the level of information present to Yoda when he planned this assault, the only reason I can think of why he assumed command of an army and brought it to Geonosis in the first place is the Force. No major military engagement in human history has been staged on as thin evidence of threat as this battle (except for the times when a causus belli was manufactured to start a conflict).
It seemed like the Jedi either went full "Leroy Jenkins!" mode in this battle or just took a page out of Field Marshal Haig's book. Either way, it reminds me of a Blackadder quote: "Our battles are directed, sir?"
Totally agree with your tactics. Here's how I would counter: 1. Reinforce the planetary cannons. These are the only things stopping the Republic ships from getting close, so orbital bombardment would be impossible. 2. Call for reinforcements. In the midst of the battle over the planetary cannons, a sizable Separatist fleet could jump in and block the Republic Cruisers from the planet. 3. Send in boarding parties. With millions of droids on the planet, and the main battle being in space, you may as well put the droids to good use. You can easily identify the bridge on Republic Cruisers (it's unessecarily high), and cripple the ships, gaining the advantage in space. Eventually, the Republic would be forced to retreat, and I would begin fortifications to insure that an unprepared attack like this never happens again. Let me know how you would counter this!
Thank you for doing this video, it answered a few of my questions. As for your strategy, weren't there anti-air batteries guarding the separatist's forces? Also, if your issue is brutality, you could soften up the orbital bombardment; instead of glassing everything where the separatist forces are expected to be, you could utilize another, smaller ground based task force to scout out the area, to allow more precision bombing from the carriers.
I got some ideas about this: 1. I am not sure that some of the heavier machinery could have been sent planetside with transport craft(correct me if i am wrong pls) because of that this is how i would do it 2. I would land a minor force initially however i would rotate the ships in orbit eventually landing the full force while still maintaining the orbital blockade 3. I am not sure how effective orbital fire would be at some of the geonosian installations since most of them are underground that why i think the larger force is necessary tough i would simply storm in there blindly like the commando's did instead i would have the commando's act in a recon role to identify paths into these dug in facilities and bury them until they can be dealt with. 4. The ground force would not take the offensive instead they would initially feign weakness to try to draw in the majority of the droid army into attempting to deal a "finishing blow" once a sufficient force was confirmed to be in contact the ground forces would call in a focused orbital fire on the droid formations for maximum damage. If this succeeded i would only then start the attack, if i hard spot was encountered i would have the force wait for orbital support instead of engaging. I would also keep a force of LAAT gunships in reserve to help exploit any openings to try to strike any any facilities whose defense was sufficiently reduced.
I love these battle videos! I just wish for the land ones, you could use battle lines like in battlemaps, as to make your videos more accurate. Keep up the good work!
Well said Eck however I have a different counterstroke. I personally would choose the split my entire fleet into three designated battle groups before hyper-spacing into the system. If I can still follow the traditional timeline to where the planet Geonosis still doesn't have a planetary shield and assuming apparently we're completely caught off guard by the assault of the Republic considering they did not believe the Republic had an army or navy and were completely taken off guard from the size of the Republic's forces from what we see in the movie I can strategically continue. Upon entering the system I would still have the fleet as one large group and still carry out the Jedi taking down the planetary defense cannon and carry on with the rescue of Anakin Skywalker Obi-Wan Kenobi and Ambassador Amidala as according to the film however I would change the fact of sending Jedi their completely alone to the surface. I would suggest deploying two to three fully equipped legions of clones to be deployed with the Jedi forces that are taking down the planetary defense cannon. I can say this would workout with a great deal of certainty considering that the planet has no planetary sheild said by Eck and also have the complete element of surprise in my favor considering the CIS never detected the hyperspace signatures of that entire fleet entering the planetary system and the proof is in the fact of the Jedi are able to infiltrate the arena seamlessly unopposed lol. So that would also entail the operation to taking down of the planetary defense cannon went off without a hitch, probably with no friendly casualties and also without a single battle droid or unlucky enough Geonosin to have guard duty their and missing all the festivities at the arena were able to transmit a communication to HQ saying " Oh carp we're under attack!" Also I would the Jedi take down the cannon and let the transport focus solely of the off loading of troops. So upon receiving that transmission and confirmation from friendly assets on the ground that the target has been neutralized, a quick casualty report, a current status update on the deployment numbers of the legions i.e what precent of the legions has been offloaded to the surface, what elements of the legions i.e. tanks, artillery pieces, transports/gunships and Infantry has been off-loaded onto the planets surface. Most importantly the numbers. I need to know them so if the Jedi need for immediate number of heavy reinforcements they can have it or to repel a seriously unlikely counter-attack by the CIS it that situation numbers matter! I could hastily but strategically consolidate a scratch legion from what ever currently available assets from all the legions that are combat effective (as in boots on the ground and not in line to deploy) available to me now. Lastly but most importantly a on the fly ETA from Mace Windu on how far are the Jedi are into their rescue mission of the hostages? "Also I would send like two or three battalions of clones as a mixed with arc troopers, commando troopers and the rest mainly Infantry with Mace Windu in the Jedi. These clones would simply be there as a quick reactionary response forces so if the Jedi require immediate assistance "like when we see in the movie when the Jedi are down to a few Jedi and are about to get annihilated by Count Dooku's droid army scene" assistance and or as rear guard security so that the Jedi don't get out flanked our out maneuvered while they're in the arena. More like massacred." Anyway getting back on topic after getting that all of that initial information quickly and as accurately as computing-ly as possible I would then commence Phase 2 of my assault on the planet of Geonosis since I want to exploit my window of surprisal to its full advantage. My fleet would then be order to then begin splitting up into the three pre-designated battle groups designated alpha, bravo and charlie. As a newly-promoted Admiral or general Jedi I would I don't know read a book before leading people into the fire. So greatly want to see the performance of all of my military assets at my disposal and get an overall sense of what those said assets capabilities, deficiencies strengths, weaknesses and tactical approaches to three dimensional situations that Galactic Civil War brings. Being force sensitive I can sense that these clones are in fact not minds beings and in a since being somewhat of a good Jedi I would want to limit casualties as much as the force will permit me to do so. So with our actually knowing nothing about this randomly created grand army other than what I have been told some really,... really,... really, really, really tall and very genetical purest racist elitist (And yes I had to say it that way because I'm a registered independent simply for the reasons why I had to word it that way. That was not a dis at conservative and it certainly was not a vindication for liberals either.) and they never actually seen real-life combat engagements with enemy hostiles that have blasters of their very own too and theirs are set to kill not stun. So yeah a critique of there first performances as Army and Naval components is a must. Battle group Alpha accompanied by battle group Bravo would proceed in the landing operation of the clone troops at the original location from seen in the movie. However battle group Alpha's main objective will be in the offload all of its troops onto the battlefield whereas battle group Bravo shall provide overwatch in the form of strategic and orbital bombardments on key CIS facilities in low orbit. When completion of battle fleet Alpha's objective has been achieved battle fleet Bravo will interchange with battle fleet Alpha and interchange mission roles by becoming the new deployment platform asset into the field and battle fleet Alpha will assume battle fleet Bravo's role in becoming the heavy hitters in providing strategic and orbital bombardments. This will greatly aid in keeping a constant and steady stream of troopers into the battlefield supported with close air support and if necessary quick, reliable, accurate and precise heavy Naval ordnance at appallingly close range. Not to mention as well as keeping your enemy off balance considering there are getting a constant screen of ionized plasma from all vectors. Since droids never use cover in this movie. Also this may possible provide better cover for the clone troopers in the form of cratering up the naturally flat and desolate surface of the planet Geonosis for cover. Then again most definitely in simply just obliterating the enemy forces since battle droids have no belief in self preservation you can melt them to scrap before they can get in range to engage the friendly forces on the ground. Granted this is a risky and difficult maneuver to pull off but it done right I believe it would be highly effective and yes I do mean when the deploying platform has fully deployed. And not change when one ship empty with one from group Bravo lol. Again noob clones sorry. So when battle group Bravo objective is complete in offloading all of its troops it will then join battle group Alpha and resume its original mission objective combining both groups into one. Battle group Charlie will provide security from any counter attacks from CIS reinforcements and as a blockade around the planet to prevent any type of escape by the CIS or the CIS Droid Command centers that are lucky enough get past those two battle groups in close low orbit; will simply just get mopped up by battle group Charlie. Once the hostages are secured the defense cannon raiding party would link up with the main allied forces and the movie can resume with Anakin, Obi-Wan and Padme chase scene of Count Dooku. Please let me know what you personally think Eck and sorry I try writing what what you ask to see in the comments but this this was way to much fun for me as a writer. Also everyone else too!!! Am I giving the clones too much credit in being able to pull off such complicated and accurate maneuvers? I mean they are pretty green in a combat sense. Also Allen over at Generation Tech has informed us that clones all like 10 years old... so they're young, full of eagerness and possible a bunch incompetent kids in late puberty? LMAO. Joking Clones are... one word "ARC-77"!!! If you think my plan is trash you can use the original because remember that epic battle plan was drafted by a miniaturised frog that was a colonel and a good nap reader lol. And yes I'm sure there type o's and grammar errors but I did it on the fly and I'm looking over and editing it because I'm actually a writer but I have to take my time.
Good video. I wonder though were the Clones anticipating an all-out battle to the death with the droids? The Trade Federation insisted that all available droids immediately be sent into battle but because of Count Dooku, who wants a long galactic war, they retreat. Of course, Palpatine doesn't want a total victory at Geonosis either but as far as I know he had no direct effect on the outcome of this battle.
Clone troopers to Mace Windu: "Hello sir, we are millions of copies of the bounty hunter you just killed (Jango Fett)" Mace Windu: "Cool, let's go blow up those spaceships!"
From the title of this video, I was expecting it to be about how battles in Star Wars tend to get portrayed like they're Napoleonic line battles with all the soldiers just charging into each others' firing line, waving their guns around wildly...
I think one thing to remember is this is the republics first use of this military force. They haven’t been in a full scale war for decades. Plus, according to a deleted scene in the film, they thought they could shut down the droids like in TPM by capturing the droid control ship. As a first engagement with no clue what they were going up against whatsoever and completely rushing in due to the limited time scale, it makes sense that their tactics were far from perfect.
Hey EckhartsLadder, I was just wondering if you've covered any Rebels content on your channel already, because if you haven't, I think it would be really interesting if you covered some of the battles on there, and some of the main characters, such as Rebels Thrawn, etc.
I always wondered why the Republic never used more orbital bombardment. One of the reasons I enjoy Halo and Mass Effect is that its clear in both that many land battles are really decided by the use of warships to launch orbital bombardment of enemy planets. When the Covenant for example, do engage in land wars, its usually because they have specific objectives they need to accomplish, for example securing particular Forerunner sites or destroying planetary defenses to facilitate orbital bombardment.
Great video, but you did leave out the Republic Commandos that were active to destroy the foundries and at least one core ship which did play a part in reducing the number of droids in the battle
Wile that makes sense there is one very important thing you didn’t account for! And it is the reason for the majority of tactical flaws in the Star Wars universe. It is called THE RULE OF COOL!! Because if Star Wars had actual tacticians it would ultimately break and/or completely negat most lightsaber/space/blaster fights.
In republic commando, they say that the squad is sent after a factory deep underground that cant be destroyed from the air. Also that the battle was a diversion for this op to be completed also they have to find and kill Sun Fac the leader of the native forces.
As either a Jedi or as a commander, I can think of several other ways and plans to capture genotia in better ways, I agree with yours but it is brutal. It all makes sense. I absolutely love your videos on halo and especially Star Wars I hope to one day have discussion with you on it, I discovered your videos during my surgical recovery and I appreciate what you do, thank you and keep up the good work
My guess is the Republic wanted to brute force their way to victory. They had a brand new army that the separatists weren't expecting and thought they had outsmarted the Jedi, so the Republic wanted to strike fast and hard. That's probably why. They though they could have Anakin, obi wan, and a few clones face count dooku while they took out the ground forces and destroyed the closest starship
One issue I must point out is most of the droid foundries were underground or under enough protection to essentially resist if not provide basic immunity to orbital fire. Delta Squad, and several other clone commando units in legends had to be sent in to cripple if not destroy the droid foundries. The only exposed targets were the CIS navy’s Techno union and Federation core ships. So you would need a fair number of troops to at least cause a distraction large enough to infiltrate commando units and put a lot of punishment on the CIS navy before they get airborne. Now I will agree that not every capital ship should have landed, but enough to take out what escapes the ground forces.
I would have spread out my leadership to keep some alive I would then deploy droids lead by grievous (he was there) and recapture the defensive guns and wait for reinforcements
The Forerunners vs The Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k vs Halo) Both Factions are at their prime and have access to the all their equipment that includes AI like Offensive and Mendicant Bias and all their super weapons.
If you look at 2:56 to 3:00 The Separatist had 3 federation Carriers or more most likely each being supported by 2 capital ships as support off screen and 4 cruisers. You’d think the republic would actually send some capital ships with those transports instead of sending 17 cruisers that has the sole purpose of transporting troops. And surely the federation ships have sensors right??? I mean they sole purpose of these ships is to protect the shipment from pirates. And yet they haven’t even moved their ships to intercept, destroy or if they can’t fight the ships, support . If I was the separatists I would’ve sent 1/2 of the fighters to the ground and evacuated the leaders into space where the leaders would be safer. Then I would take the Speeders that they have them prepare to flank and send in the B1 with some b2 in the between . The rest will be in reserve .I am going to station the droids on the top to the bottom garrisons and evacuate the corps so when the clones attack they’ll find little to no resistance also on the bottom I believe there is a hill that is probably a ideal position to put the reserves and the put the spider droids. As the garrison on the bottom will actually not attack in open ground but in bunkers where they can defend. Also the spitfire will act as artillery and anti air instead of tanks for a frontal charge
I'll be streaming Battlefront V in a few minutes! www.twitch.tv/eckhartsladder
EckhartsLadder do u mean battlefield 5
EckhartsLadder do the battle of yuuzhan'tar!
Clarkie Clark lmao ur funny becuz Battlefield V and Battlefield 5 are the same thing
EckhartsLadder yes
ah the good oldie, nuke it to hell. I SEE!!! yeah. I think part of the issue besides Palpatine fucking with everyone and Dooku actually knowing they were coming in his own way was that the jedi diddnt want to, you know genocide the place and the genosians, they underestimated the droid numbers, diddnt know what they were walking into and all that.
Mace Windu: I feel it would be better if we launch an aerial assault. Yoda: Retarted you are. Land we will and show of our sexy army we shall. Windu: ...
Begun, the Cool Visuals have!
To be fair, Windu sent Commandos to the front line
Wow the unrestricted unknowing use of the r-word. Funny, u r not.
@@adam6620 Grow up
The Republic had tactics?
Pretty sure they just dropped all their troops in a field and told them to go get 'em.
As for your tactics, before watching this video, I thought to myself, "Why didn't the Republic just smash and grab the jedi, retreat to orbit, and bombard the Separatists into submission?" Glad to see I wasn't the only one who thought so.
As you say though, it's a particularly brutal strategy, and if the CIS can portray Geonosian drones as innocent civilians, the destruction and death rained from orbit may lead systems to joining the Confederacy much how Tarkin's brutal actions led systems to the Rebellion.
Justafan IV you know you are right about the Republic's "tactics"
The Acclamator assault ships are not designed for orbital bombardment, they are mainly for transporting troops.
If I was a developer in Episode 2, I would have Lucas for the CIS to have a fleet of droid control ships that goes to battle against the acclamators.
He mentions that the Acclamator is Base Delta Zero capable, which to me means they are more than capable of orbital bombardment.
Geonosians live underground and most of their structures and foundries are essentially bunkers. I think they can tank a few weeks of orbital bombardment, at least until they muster all of their space assets from elsewhere and start slamming your blockade like there's no tomorrow.
If Dooku escapes, rally more systems to his cause, he will.
Lol "Doge fishon"
Nice profile picture
A quote from which character, is this?
Remember this line, I do not
Lil Colgate Vert Yoda I think
It's been a while seen this movie though so if I'm wrong don't be mean
Republic's lack of effective strategy could probably be attributed to Palpatine. Had Geonosis been taken and neutralized, the war would have been short and decisive, preventing Palpatine from building his power base and carrying out his plans.
The republic also put Jedi who were peacekeepers as generals and had been demilitarized for a long time too
So basically, Palpatine ordered the Jedi and the Clone trooper military forces to land their ground forces for a land battle and have their cruisers leave orbit?
It is not possible to win a galactic war with a single planet.
fantasticmoose but this makes sense
@@kofola9145 I strongly disagree the demorilization of the destruction of leadership would have scared the remaining leadership off world along with an overwhelming victory nd the leadership being killed would have brought them closer to the table for peace talks
I'm going to defend the Republic here. Remember, Geonosisians are a primarily underground species, and the planet itself is probably the most Base Delta Zero-resistant imaginable. Keeping the Acclamators in orbit and depending on LAATs for troop deployment, while offering a better blockade (and potentially preventing the leadership's escape) dramatically slows down the deployment. The core of the canon strategy was a brutal lightning strike to overwhelm the enemy using the element of surprise before the droid factories could be put fully to work. Your strategy seems like it converts the blitzkrieg into a siege, which is fine, but I feel that if the battle took a few days or weeks, the Separatists could muster up enough ships to push the Republic fleet back. More core ships might have been destroyed, but no leadership capture, no planet capture and no stopping the Geonosis foundries, all while the GAR is tied up around a single planet as war breaks out everywhere else. That might not happen, but there's a good chance that it would.
Michael Ramon The Empire resorted to chemical weapons to wipe out the Geonosians, when their typical MO is a planetary invasion with a Base Delta Zero as a last resort.
And the chemical weapons didn't even 100% work! I don't like using bug metaphors regarding insectoid species, but the Geonosians are at least as hard to stomp out as cockroaches are.
Michael Ramon as long as you're doing your duty as a citizen, you're good ;)
Michael Ramon or durge.
Totally agree. Nope EckartsLadder, for that battle, the Republic was pretty clever. They did what had to be done.
I think that one of the big problems for the Republic is that they were operating under time pressure, so they had to improvise their way through a lot of the battle.
One explanation for why they focused on deploying their ground forces could be that, given the Separatists vast numerical superiority, they might have feared that a smaller force would be insufficient to rescue the Jedi. They could have supported them with their fleet, but there's a limit to how close you can put your fire support to your troops without causing friendly fire. And the Separatist troops were very close to the Jedi, and in quite heavy numbers.
A solution could have been to send the Acclamators down in waves, and then return them to orbit once the clones were off the ships, after which the next wave would be sent down, etc. That way the majority of the Acclamators would always be in orbit. Of course this would mean that the ground troops would only arrive slowly, and that runs the risk of them, once again, being insufficient to deal with the Separatists. My guess is that they wanted their forces on the ground as quickly as possible, and in as many numbers as possible, and the Republic fleet couldn't get back in orbit quickly enough to stop the majority of the Separatist fleet that survived the ground assault from escaping.
Also, this is not a battle they were expecting to fight YESTERDAY. Well, I guess it's possible that Anakin and Padme were in enemy custody for a few days, but not any longer than that. Even if they had been gearing up and preparing to deploy for a while in anticipation that the Separatist Crisis was about to explode, they would have had no idea that Geonosis was the target - no one did until Obi-wan followed Jango there. The army was deployed, for their first real combat EVERY, essentially blind. It's a true testament to the skill of the clones, the power of surprise and the might of a few dozen Jedi in one place that they were able to take the planet at all.
Michael Ramon
True.
I agree. I'd also like to add the Republic probably weren't expecting the CIS to have a MASSIVE droid army waiting to fight them. The Clone army was literally organized yesterday/ last week, and all the Republic knew beforehand was that a bunch of systems led by a disillusioned fallen Jedi wanted to break off the Republic. They had no idea the CIS was already building up an army RAPIDLY.
They probably thought their objectively superior Clone army was enough to take out the CIS on Geonosis, but ended up overestimating the logistics and allowed the CIS command to escape.
While all true. The CUE was ACTUALLY genuinely SURPRISED at the ferocity and SIZE of the Clone forces that launched such an all out heavy attack on them. It was basically a space Clone War equivalent of D-Day an while mostly poorly coordinated the Clones delivered and the CIS got their asses handed to them. Dooku we all notice along with the other CUE leadership was a lot more careful in future engagements. As was their enemies. Had he tried to bail like he did much later he'd probably been caught or shot down. Opting to be more classic suddenly vanished bad guy a lot the time from then on or fight his way out trying to get away fast as possible I guess after getting his wake up call. Grevious also did that a ton as well. Least both side's tactics slowly improved in later fights somewhat most the time
may I add, the surprise in the CIS is genuine, so maybe the troops could have already grounded a few waves of the acclamators before being noticed. Carefully aimed, they shouldnt be overwhelmed that easily, and I say it because, really, the jedi were turning the lightsabers in the middle of the arena, right next to freaking count Dooku before the very fools even realized they were being attacked. if thats the level of security where your leaders are, the rest of the planet was an open landing zone probably
In the Jedi defense it had been a thousand years since the last major war and most Jedi had no military experience
Also I feel like they were kinda just had it thrown at them, I always felt like the majority of the Senate say the jedi as pawns to solve their problems far before the clone wars.
Than you hire someone who does!
Miguel Sanchez which was no body
@@hisroyalhighness7778 well the CIS found Grievous... You don't think there were any competent and experienced generals... In a galaxy?
Darth Vitiate- yeah Palpatine sure used that to his advantage. He wanted the Jedi to be seen as incompetent and war-mongering, always trying to start wars where there does not need to be. Of course, that was propaganda spewed by the CIS, but the CIS was the republic anyway. Tbh, the Jedi should’ve been smarter and removed themselves from the fighting, since they have emphasized time and again that they are keepers of the peace, and they can’t fight your wars for you. Literally every bad thing that could’ve went wrong, went wrong. Almost everything played into palpatines hands, even when he didn’t intend it to. The clone wars was the perfect storm
If they actually had a good plan, they’d probably be able to capture the geonosis factory and could build a bigger army
Vsause Puppet but it was a droid factory, not only did the republic not use droids, it would cost more resources then it would be worth to try and convert it to produce vehicles and starships
Yeah. But they could reprogram the droids...
its not a law that held them back from using droids, it was the avaiability of the clone army. Nothing is holding them back to use Battledroids and clones combined. give them a paint job, code them for repupöic service and almost double your troops in a small time if you need to/have the resources.
DatGengariosboi let's not forget that the Trade Federation were the ones that originally built and programmed these droids, if they had some kind of signal or switch that could regain control of the droids (not saying they do, but look at it from a republic leader's perspective), then in the middle of battle half your fighting force could do a 180 and fire on your own men. Plus the fact that Geonosis is on the complete opposite side of the galaxy from republic control, so you'd need a sizable garrison to protect the factory, suppress the locals, ship food and materials to the factory and carry back the droids, it would be more trouble then it's worth just to add cannon fodder to your army
No the taxes from the republic did
Your strategy makes total sense. This just shows that, not only the Jedi know nothing about fighting a war, but the Republic military doctrine is also antiquated.
Mecha-san considering the republic had disbanded its military for roughly 1000 years its not surprising its tactics are outdated.
Where they ever dated ever?
I wouldn't say there doctrine was antiquated so much as, the ground attack on the seperatist ships was needed to be shown on screen to show the kick off of the clone wars, bombardment from space would have been cool, but been over much quicker, been far less dramatic and not only not involve any of the main characters, but not even put them in jeopardy, so once again less dramatic, so it seems the battle doctrine was created to be as dramatic as possible, almost as if they knew they were making a movie. :)
Mecha-san the Jedi and Republic having been in a major war since the days of the Old Republic. As a result the Jedi became docile and inexperienced at leading soldiers just look at the stark-hyperspace war, and the Mandalorian Civil War
Reed Uchiha The Jedi won the Mandalorian Jedi war from what we heard.
And in Legends they rekt them
There is a big flaw in your strategy. While they could base delta zero you mentioned that their basses had shields. As a cis supreme commander I would have imediately pull every important leader to the most secure basses and wait for help. Decoys and distractions would be used so you cant focus fire the building I send everyone to. We wait it out till the lucrehulks arrive and then I would attempt to make you think we got only a small ship to escape with the rest of the ships arriving as you take the bait. Aclamators are not very potent ship to ship vessels..I think a lucrehulk can distract you enough for me to make my actual escape. This entirely relies on how much can our base shields last.
I have to agree here. While, yes, the GAR does have orbital superiority at the time of the attack's beginning, the CIS definitely had ships elsewhere that would be brought in if the battle dragged on. While the acclamators did have some cruiser capabilities and weapons, primarily they were troop transports. If even a small force of actual warships arrived at Geonosis, the acclamators would have started dropping like flies. And, with that fleet essentially containing the entire clone army that was not in training still, losing it would basically mean handing the war to the CIS on as silver platter. A quick, overwhelming offensive was the strategy they needed to take the planet and defeat the forces there.
I've been going over different potential strategies in my head, and ultimately though, anything that gives the CIS time to bunker down into defensive positions is too much of a risk. I would say proceed with the all out ground assault (though if I had my way it would be with actual military commanders in charge instead of Jedi acting as generals, keep them to their own skill set and use them for elite special forces) but leave just a couple of accumulators in orbit to provide bombardments to take out the grounded CIS spacecraft, and assist the ground forces. Once the other ships had unloaded their troops and re-entered orbit they could land if the ground battle needed reinforcements, or stay in orbit if the CIS ships were getting close to escaping.
that is like playing full Raddus on TLJ lol. good, but you could rather counter, with the lucrahulks on the air, just unload the droids you were saving for future encounters, there will be time to load them back when the battle is won
Lol don’t even need shields just go hang out with the geo bois underground
Lol I literally was thinking the same thing just hold off the acclimators before they rain fire like with some dreadnoughts or vulture droids and wait for more reinforcements in the air because if you deploy say 30% troops and jedi and overload in the air I will be more worried about an Ariel assault and focus my strategies and firepower in the sky and say if the republic were to retreat we would have more support because ships would be coming out of hyperspace
@@miken5448 usually LAAT'S are troop transports so with them wouldn't you use them for more firepower or just for deploying troops
I know this would be difficult, but can you breakdown what is by far the largest space battle in the entire franchise? *The* *Battle* *of* *Yuuzhan'tar!*
I have made this request: thirty-three times.
You mean the Battle of Coruscant. I don't care if the Vong occupied Coruscant and named it Yuuzhan'tar, I will never recognize that name anymore then Thrawn recognized the New Republic.
You forgot how a few saboath cruisers came out of hyperspace to bombard the republic, but adi gallia, along with a small pirate group including the tritus stopped the bombardment and got rid of the trihexalon (star wars: jedi starfighter)
That's a good game right there.
I miss playing that game. And such a great final act
Sabaoth Squadron are one of the most underrated video game villains of all time. I loved those guys.
Fuckin' quality game for the PS2. I miss those days...
The Clone Wars comic did not give her character a good death.
My fat ass thought that thumbnail was a slice of pizza
BXOTROT ___ That's just sad.
Funny but you may need to be cautious
KininjaFX yeah I know, I lost my fourteen gallons of mustard I ordered from Pizza Hut by hurricane Harvey so I couldn’t stop thinking about pizza
Aniket Biswas your right, you may never expect when the Spanish Inquisition may appear
BXOTROT ___ I worry about you now.
The Jedi are useless in space? Adi Gallia doesn't approve of that :(
Neither does anakin lol
I feel an orbital bombardment would be too brutal for a jedi tactic. Effective, yes. But "Not the jedi way"
Couldn't they shoot at least the Coreships that are crewed each by a dozen thousand droids?
Yeah, The Jedi of the clone wars are horrible generals. In war, the objective is to kill the enemy. The Jedi cannot accomplish that without betraying their ideals. Previous Jedi in legends seemed to be able to balance the need to defeat the enemy without betraying their ideals (General Hoth comes to mind, though there was a bit were it was close)
Too brutal against inanimate, unthinking objects?
there were geonosians that were not millitaraly involved, so they are civillians.
If I had to guess, there were probably nimodeans on the ships. We saw them crewed by them during episode 1. I don't believe the Trade federation would've made them completely autonomous. The Jedi would be wary of killing them. They shouldn't, but they would.
I feel like this is the one time that the republic had an overwhelming force during the war
well no the CIS still had more troops but the problem is that they weren't prepared for a attack so they weren't deployed in time and were mostly focused on getting them the fuck out instead of trying to deploy them
It sounds good until you consider the fact that the C.I.S. most likely had munificents in orbit (From the Banking Clan.) which would have been more than a match for Aclamators which are little more than glorified transports.
Plot armor.
Pretty sure munificents didn't exist in the CIS armament during the episode 2 timeline
Lil Colgate Vert
The Banking Clan used them long before the Clone Wars to collect debts from various worlds.
Tactical Droid Again, pretty sure munificents didn't exist in the CIS armament during the episode 2 timeline
Lil Colgate Vert
San Hill was at the meeting and he decided to bring Banking Clan hellfire droids so, it would be plausible for him to also bring in munificents.
I think there are several issues with your strategy. Some of which were actually addressed (although not directly) within the movie. The first and foremost is that a good portion of the Geonosian factories were underground. You'd be able to disable the lucrehulks and techno union ships, but without destroying the factories...well we saw what happened in Star Wars Clone Wars Season 2 and the Landing at Point Rain.
Second, consider the implications if the Republic were to completely level Geonosis. How would that look on the holonet? With the Separatist Crisis in full swing, if the Republic had leveled the planet, the Separatists could have easily used that event to generate support. I mean the Separatists were already open to chemical attacks and blaming them on the Republic (Battle of Ohma-D'un), they'd have definitely used a Republic bombardment for their own political advantage. Countless systems would have joined them, easily furthering the Separatist cause.
Overall, cool video though. Just saying that a lot of people forget that military strategy also coincides with political strategy, and that's what I love most about the Clone Wars. Some of the tactics may not make sense from a military perspective, but you also have to analyze the political reasoning behind certain strategies. Would bombing Geonosis into oblivion have worked? Yeah, probably. The Republic could have starved them out, but it would not have worked in the Republic's overall strategy (ignoring Palpatine's own strategy). Countless systems would have joined the Separatist's who would have been seen as the victims of "Republic imperialism".
*insert epic Battlefront II quote here*
Logan Smith *Watch those Risk Rockets*
they're sendin in the supers!!
Just like the simulations
For the Republic!
They just don't learn do they.
The one thing that no one acknowledges in the tactics is that Palpatine/Sideous wanted a prolonged war. His plan was to have most of the CIS forces escape...and it worked.
What could you expect. The republic haven't had an army in years.
The republic also put Jedi who were peacekeepers as generals
Great video and yeah I agree the battle was a mess and you have great ideas.
"The Jedi are useless in space."
Anakin would like to know your location.
Although the tactics were rubbish, it created some great ground battle scenes, which I loved watching as a kid
"I think the strategy could be tied to a few different things.." 1. Palpatine. 2. Palpatine. 3. Palpatine.
“The Jedi are useless in space” wow that’s an ignorant assumption. Plo Koon and Adi Gallia as well as Master Tiin were known for being amazing pilots and deadly in space combat.
On a Fighter to Fighter basis jedi were very deadly, sure, but against Lucrehulks and other Warships there isnt that much a jedi starfighter can do. Jedi are way more decisive on the Ground than they are in space i would argue.
3 out of 10,000...
Your strategy makes really sense. Honestly I don't know how to counter it. Maybe there is a way, but you have to know in advance of the attack preventing the Republic to find you without trousers.
In this situation the only possible solution to your tactics would have been to flee, maybe sacrificing something in order to save something else.
The ground battle, even if "beautiful" (not from a tactical point of view) is totally useless.
A such huge defeat would have certainly scattered CSI for some time.
> 99% of jedi
> Strategic thinking
Pick one
I think the reason for a ground-focus was emphasized for two-things
---Jedi migt not have been used to a brutal stategy (as said).
---Palpatine wasn't ready for the war to end (as said).
---For a live experiment of the effectivity of Clones.
Countering your tactics:
---Loss is inevitable. Any counter-attack would result in annihilation, regardless of how effective it could possible turn out. With this in mind, the idea is to hurt the Republic as much as possible, while escaping with the leadership.
---The leadership would leave on smaller, faster ships, leaving as soon as possible, hopefully escaping prior to a blockade.
---Put as much of my forces as possible underground, forcing you to at somepoint make a ground invasion.
---If any capital ships land too close, they would become primary targets, for stealing or simply destruction.
---Hold out as long as possible relying on pincer movement and guerrila warfare.
---If enough CIS ships were available, I would use it as a strike force to open up the blockade. If even more was available, then possibly a full counter-attack. I doubt however, that enough was available.
The jedi started the clone wars,period!
Darth Vader but you were once a Jedi
Darth Vader Damn Republic-sanctioned dogs.
Darth Vader
Only a Sith deals an absolute
You started the war.
Darth Vader I'm not a rebel i'm a good friend of your boss, and he told me you didn't like the sand on Geonosis. By the way your son kissed your daughter.
Also, didn't the Republic still have some old Mandators in service, which while outdated could probably still have brought a good deal of firepower to the table? I would have used these heavy assets in a attempted decapitation strike against the CIS leadership.
Marcus Tullius Cicero they were parked at Kuat (property of KDY). It would take too long (negotiations and travel to the frontlines) to be used effectively at Geonosis
I though that was just the “pride of the core” or whatever not all the mandator 1 and 2’s at kuat
"Droid curb stomp" lol
Do the Battles on Istvaan III and V during the Horus Heresy (Warhammer 40k).
While I do agree with the counter strategy applied here, the tactics that were used weren't actually that terrible and have been used in similar situations in modern war. El Alamain is an example, where the British used artillery to soften up German lines before hitting them with en mass infantry and tank assaults, often in conjuncture.
When you look at the battle, we see something similar. The Republic uses its air superiority to bombard the droid lines and assault the enemy in rapid blitzkrieg with tanks and infantry supporting each other. Because time is of the essence as they need to destroy grounded starships, they have to take ground quickly.
If anything, the tactics are not the problem. The problem is the equipment brought to this battle. The only vehicle they have is a slow moving walker that is easily destructible to missiles. Had the Republic had access to Juggernaut and Saber Tanks instead, they likely would've been able to smash through the enemy lines with much less casualties.
Combine this with direct firemissions with the Acclimators and you could've crushed the droid army on the planet.
Doesn't matter if it's called Republic, Empire or First Order. If that logo is attached to you, then tactics frequently sit out of your battle plans!
The Acclamator is a transport ship, similar to the big landing ships of WW2. Which landed (dunno how to say in English) on the beach, opened a huge door to release tanks and troops.
Also don't forget the heavy artillery. I doubt they would have been able to drop another way.
The best strat would have been mixing a land assault like in the movie, with air superiority with some acclamators to prevent any escape
As a counter to your strategy, I am assuming that I have to use what is available, and can't just say I'd have a shield, so here's what I would do.
I would have heavily defended the anti-orbital cannons, as they are the only way I could keep the Republic Fleet at bay. I don't know how well defended they were, but it is clear that it was not enough. I would have had my available Navy in orbit, and not grounded, to allow for my troops to retreat if needed without risk of Republic interception, and immediately had my major leaders retreat from the planet the moment Republic Ships came out of hyperspace (which would have been much easier to detect with even a small Navy in orbit) as to avoid loosing such pivotal figures. Even if Republic ships managed to get past my defensive fleet, enough small fighters would have been destroyed to stop a ground assault on the Anti-Orbital Cannons, forcing any ground assault on them to have Republic fighters to come within range to deploy troops. This would be the only way for the Republic to stop a full evacuation at the very least, as they would be forced too far out by the cannons to form a blockade. Even then, a retreat would be unnecessary, as many more droids could be produced by the time Republic ships could dismantle the cannons, and by the time Republic reinforcements came, a planetary shield could have been constructed, and a much larger CIS Navy could have been launched, forcing the Republic into a much worse position. Another option would be to have small fighter squads to be launched to attack important Republic outposts in other sectors, as they would be barely defended in the early stages of the war, as the Republic hadn't properly deployed the Clone Army yet. And once again, even if my plan to stop the Republic had failed, it would allow my troops to be in a great position to retreat, and my key figureheads would already be evacuated. If I was unable to evacuate, I would have used the Republic bombardment as a way of slandering the Jedi and Republic, to show how evil they were, indiscriminately bombarding a planet and hitting and killing many civilian populations.
William Dex geonosian drones aren’t even sentient, good luck trying to condemn that. Filthy bugs deserved what the empire did to them.
Wow, I just saw that snippet of Battlefield 5 & I can see it’s set partly in Narvik Norway. I used to live nearby in Sweden and recognize the terrain around the town. Amazing job.
I'm not convinced orbital bombardment would work for a few reasons.
The Republic forces only know where the Lucrehulk's were and the surface factories and structures were. The vast majority of the industry and populace of Geonosis was deep underground thus protected against the admittedly limited weapons of the Acclamators. I see the only way to win is a balls to the walls assault with everything you have.
I think the best tactic to be employed by the Republic (ignoring mace windu's assault of the arena) is to save the remaining Jedi in the same way.
The Clones drop down and lead a forlorn hope assault on the Droids with little regard for casualties.
Instead of the Acclamator's staying in orbit or keeping their distance i'd make them give close air support directly in atmosphere above the battle, this would give a huge firepower bonus and could even block many Lucrehulk's taking off. The droids might even shoot down a few cruisers but that just draws away fire from the clone spearhead.
I would leave a fraction of the cruisers in orbit to destroy the Lucrehulk 'rings' with bombers and cruisers alike.
The Jedi Split into two groups with clone escorts; first sets off to hunt down the head of the snake and the second goes after the CIS leadership. I'd use the Jedi as shock troopers and assassins.
The aim of this is to bog down the CIS into a fight they can't leave as i believe the republic has initiative and superiority.
The ground campaign would be blobby but with the turbo laser fire from the Acclamator's it would render the tight formations of the enemy an advantage for the republic.
друг honestly that’s a better utilisation of the Jedi in general. They’re skilled warriors, but most of them were shit commanders, therefore organizing them into their own units is better than having them command the clones (actual trained soldiers.)
Great video as always, and you are right Republic tactics were a mess, but yours have holes too.
Republic: They should have had a much more varied fleet, maybe grab a few dreadnoughts or Corellian vessels, a Heave Hitter and something for screening the countless Droid starfighters those Lucerhulks carried. They also should have chosen different ground commanders rather than pacifist Jedi, BIG MISTAKE! Though landing the ships did help them defensively, as they could focus their shields in a single direction rather than worrying about attacks from multiply Directions.
Mr. Ladder: 1: A base Delta Zero, would never have been approved by the Republic senate, who even with Emergency Powers Palpatine still answered too.
2: Turbolasers wouldn't be able to reach the Deep Catacombs were Many of the factories were located, so either way boots would have to have been on the ground to mop up.
3: At this time the largest militaries were the basically the Seps, and they could easily rally forces and catch the Republic in a pincer, if ships were left in orbit, Base Delta Zeros take time.
ME: 1: Send in Special Forces/ Bounty Hunters to rescue prisoners, rather than sacrifice more Jedi and take out communications, and planet defence
2: Send in small number of Acclumators for Ground invasion, while flexible main Fleet provides orbital protection, bombardment, and to destroy ships in orbit.
3: Ground forces would set up defensive positions and wait for droid attacks while using long range artillery and ship based weapons to target landed ships, with support from orbit.
4: After initial resistance, and limitd bombardment on ships and factories ground forces break defense and move to destroy factories and mop up
At least those are my ideas, keep up the good work.
No mention of the Republic Commandos?
Inquisitor Rhurick you mean how a good majority of them were deployed poorly and ended up getting killed?
Not Delta - oo-rah!
Yeah your defiantly right about abusing air superiority. There isn't much you can do about that.
But the way I would countered your tactic, since you asked, is when Anakin Skywalker and padame were caught going after obi-one, figuring out that others know your position and a republic attack is incoming isn't hard. From there I would order a small fleet to return to genesis and camp out in orbit. From there I would bait the Jedi, kill as many as can be safely killed and order the evacuation while simultaneously ordering some droids to pull a scorched earth campaine on military assets. Can't avoid a republic victory so I make it a strategic loss of possible.
Replicators vs a Unified Star Wars universe (260th try *_I._** WILL NEEEEVER EEEVER GIVE UP!!!)*
Good video eck , and i think the best way to destroy the geonosian factories and defenses would be orbital bombardment with the aclamators then send the clones after all the droids are destroyed and occupy the planet. Even know the geonosians would be a problem but a surprise attack would catch them all off guard and destroy majority of the droids and geonosians , plus the core ships would also be destroyed and you can either kill the leaders or capture them but kill count dooku.
Even if your plan is implemented to prevent the escape of separatist forces, one of the biggest holdbacks is that some of the factories of Geonosis & other sensitive areas are so well shielded that base delta zero would have little to no effects (borrowing from “Republic Commando”). Yes, air superiority is essential, but having troops on the ground probably hid the special ops groups slipping into key target locations.
As for the Acclamators, I’m guessing that the ones at the battle were actually unarmed, that they actually had no turbolasers nor were their torpedo tubes loaded. Sure they loaded up everything they could on Kamino, SPMAs, LAATs, AT-TEs, & more, but I’m definitely sure that this was done for #2: keeping a low profile & not advertise itself as an actual warship & #1: Palpatine deliberately made it so that the Clone Wars would go off without a hitch.
However, shortly after the start, the Acclamators had their specifically designed & built weapons bolted onto their designated hard-points & their warhead tubes filled to capacity.
Nick Vinsable you don’t just “bolt on” the guns, warships are designed from the ground up to be a weapons platform.
I typed “Specifically Designed & Built Weapons” towards the end because that is what most likely would’ve happened, Stephen M. Stouter.
And these Acclamators were built more like Transports rather than dedicated Battleships & Carriers.
4:30 "there useless in space anyway" *cues the scene in space where Anakin Skywalker and obi wan kanobi board the separatist flagship and single handedly destroy it* then cues *STAR wars the clone wars episode where asoka comes up with a battle strategy that saves the republic fleet that's trying to retake a planet*
This channel is love and life
Your strategy makes perfect sense in that situation. To counter this I would have literally any think that the seperatists had in space. A couple of Munificent ships would have taken some of those carriers down
Nothing could stop the might of the confederacy
Your strategy make perfect sense. You’re using the republic navy perfectly. if ever studied the pacific theater of World War Two you would know that a navy unopposed can help out their troops significantly when it comes to an assault on targets. So I love the strategy
Star wars vs star trek vs halo vs mass effect who has best moustache! 1st attempt
Yularen wins
It took me a month to realize I had watched probably half your videos and haven't subscribed yet. Keep up the good work.
An Elite Zealot vs Predator
I remember in star wars jedi starfighter that a band of priates and other jedi had had to take care of some orbital hex weapons during the battle. other wise the ground forces would be decimated with Hex weapons.
Honestly the first battle of Klendathu from starship troopers was better planned than the first and second invasions of geonosis
Are you sure? They at least brought tanks and air suport
The jedi may not have been expert tacticians then but they are not dumb or over-confident of their abilities compared to their enemy.
I have to disagree. The republic at least used mixed-unit tactics even at the first invasion. And the second invasion did seem more planned out, if perhaps not properly prepared for given how thinly their resources were spread out, but that was a case of taking the whole planet rather than just the key cities and facilities that we saw with the capture of most other planets.
ChakatBlackstar, I agree.
ChakatBlackstar its called sarcasm
Cool video, i like how you examine every single detail in your vids. Your amazing keep it up!
Excellent
Great video, although Im gonna add one mora argument on the side of republic and why did they choose this strategy:
As we see in a film, Jedi council just recieved a warning message from Obi-wan about Geonosis and they knew he was captured, so that they had to act quickly. I think that's why Mace Windu rushes with his strike team to save Anakin and Obi-wan, without thinking much about the tacticts. Also nobody in the Jedi order knew how excactly huge was clone army, what gear they had, what weapons and ships they use etc. (max Obi-wan, but he was captured.)
Between capturing of Obi-wan and first clones arriving at the arena to rescue Jedi must have been like roughly 16 hours, so when Yoda came to Kamino he didn't inspect all the clone units and their weapons, he just get everyone who can packing and straight to Geonosis. I doubt there was much time for commanders to came up with some good strategy, also they probably didn't expect such resistance. They must have thought that this will be a quick mission: just land the forces, capture or destroy core ships and factories, capture a leadership and that's the end of rebelion. They coudn't foreseen so many droids on the surface.
Do the yuuzhan vong vs. the borg.
Commander Knight vong 100% it was seen in voyager that the Borg can’t adapt to organic weapons
Vong easy. They are basically Star Wars’ species 8472
But what if they could assimilate the vong?. They did it with species 8472 too. But they couldnt tell the rest of the collective in time.
That's not entirely true. They couldn't adapt to species 8472 because the biology was well outside anything the borg were familiar with.
Borg Adaptation is not infallible, but it IS underestimated quite often. (the most common and self-evidently inane piece of reasoning being that borg are vulnerable to projectile weapons, based solely on what Picard did on the holodeck, even though prior evidence shows adaptation to a weapon takes somewhat longer than that scene took.)
Problem with cross-universe comparisons is trying to establish a baseline for all the unknown factors.
Some random things about star wars vs star trek in general:
- How powerful are phasers & disruptors compared to turbolasers, etc?
- Speed and limitations of Warp vs Hyperdrive. (notwithstanding weird niche things seen often in Star Trek that vastly exceed the regular speed scales)
- Does an interdiction field work on warp drive?
- Do star trek shields have any defensive value against star wars weaponry?
- can a turbolaser track fast enough to hit even a 'large' star trek target like a galaxy class ship (or borg cube for that matter)
- are fighters of any use against star trek ships. (see; Enterprise D destroying 6 fighter size targets in under 5 seconds.)
- do star wars ray and particle shield protect against phasers, photons, distruptors and so on. Are they any more or less effective at this than the typical star wars weapons?
- Does star wars shielding offer any protection whatsoever against transporters?
There's an exceedingly long list of such things that you can come up with. Some of them are relatively easy to answer in a moderately objective manner. (warp vs hyperdrive for instance - hyperdrive wins by a landslide, but has some limitations that warp drive does not, though that offers little practical benefit to warp ships)
Some are near impossible to answer meaningfully (eg. Transporters vs star wars shielding.)
Some can be guessed at through secondary means, (turbolaser vs phaser firepower) but any such guess is subject to massive uncertainty.
The list of such problems is so long it's almost impossible to properly compare such things without making a long list of relatively arbitrary assumptions.
Even within a single universe you get questions like that though;
- Eg. what are the limits of borg adaptation?
- What are the Q incapable of doing?
- is there a viable way to defeat the Krenim Temporal weapon that isn't basically a plot device/random luck?
etc...
How to stop the Krenim temporal weapon: knock it back into temporal sink with the universe then ram it.
"...and I'll put forward what I would have done differently................... Well............. EVERYTHING!"
Seriously though. your assessment is correct, they only needed enough boots on the ground to pull off the rescue and protect their escape, although I feel you idea needs one change, as the Republic had only just committing to war and was probably not ready to allow the bombing populated areas from space, so instead the Jedi and Clone ground forces would have been tasked with taking out the droid factories,at least any that were not isolated enough to be destroyed from space without collateral damage, while the bulk of the fleet rained fire down on the grounded separatist fleet and troop concentration.
Splitting the fleet in this way wouldn't have caused any issues as most of the troops seemed to be dedicated to taking out the ships anyways, so without the need for them to do that they could have been held back as a reserve, while still committing a larger force to the attack on the factories, if it were needed.
"let's analyze republic stratagy."
Gather up all your friends and dog-pile anyone who isn't you.
I think the biggest issue is that they didn’t send their gunships or Acclamators to essentially block the core ships from leaving. The gunships could’ve landed their troops to the front line and then moved forward, hitting the core ships with their missiles and lasers.
Without bombing them out of existence, they could’ve used the cruisers to block the coreships and blast them down as they left the surface, the core’s being pretty defenseless without the large ring-structure.
Bombing the surface as you mentioned would’ve been far too brutal, and would’ve made the Republic seem far more aggressive than they are, plus the Jedi likely wouldn’t have wanted to do it and it would’ve been an issue between the Jedi and Republic.
How are Jedi useless in space? Jedi are some of the best pilots in the galaxy! 4:31
they are like fighter aces in ww2, impressive but in the end doesent do much of a difference
True, but against the sheer numbers of the Separatists they can only do so much. Remember, Germany had the most and best aces in WW2, some of the most advanced fighters including the first jet fighters to be deployed in combat, but the Allies were the ones with the sheer numbers.
Not actually true Chakat. Germany had the best and most aces that is true. But the Allied Airforce was actually more advance for the entire war. The Spitfire was supreme in the battle of Britain despite being outnumbered and nothing could hold up against the P-51 Mustang. Even things like the famous Stuka were less effective then their counterparts like the IL-2. The difference is that in the early stages of the war, the Germans were just better trained with better tactics. Germany had the first jet fighter but the ME-262 which showed up very late in the war but thats one fighter at the very end that was not mass produced. Not really accurate to that Germany had the most advanced fighters in the war when its only 1 plane showing up for a few months.
You want advance, Spitfire, P-51, B-17, B-29, IL-2, and ME-262 are all the planes you are looking for. And only 1 of those is German. Stuka is famous for pioneering tactics, not because it was more advance then its counter-parts
I'm just going to make the point that the superior fighter in the Battle of Britain was in fact the Hawker Hurricane, which was far more effective than the spitfire in that situation, as well as in other battles throughout the war.
EckhartsLadder: “Orbital Bombardment would’ve ensured the destruction of the fuel and droid ships”
Random Clone: *WHERE’S THE BLOODY FUN IN THAT?!?*
Master Chief vs Boba Fett
MC takes the victory and runs with it.
I think legends Boba would win (he went toe to toe with Vader) but just based on cannon Master Chief would win easily
Joshua Kielty Master Chief would beat legends boba fett
Master Chief, the man who wiped out an entire armada vs. Boba Fett, the man who got wiped out by a blind guy. Who will die....laughing at how bad Boba Fett gets his ass kicked?
Chief curbstomp
I like your idea of how you would do it differently. But to add to that what you could do, is Cycle the ships in orbit so you can keep landing more and more forces. So say for example 1st Fleet lands their Forces while 2nd & 3rd stay in orbit, than then after 1st offloads its forces cycle 1st and 2nd out so 1st and 3rd are in orbit while 2nd lands and so on.
Boba Fett vs Predator
GreaterHalo06 Boba Fett
Predator would tear bobas spine out
Predator
Avery interesting and important view for the what would have been the most decisive battle in the Clone Wars. I'd still like to ad that the call for attacking Geonosis was very rushed, and they perhaps had no time to make a plan. They had no intel on the planet, it's surface, or fighting capabilities, so they perhaps rushed in to secure the rescue team/capture all Separatist leaders on ground?. Thank you for making this :)
Spartans vs N7 and UNSC Marines vs System Alliance Marines
100% American Buffalo and Space Marines
Spartans>N7 but Spectors>Spartans
Also Systems Alliance marines>UNSC Marines
100% American Buffalo all system alliance marines had augmentation equal to or better than odst's
I don't know if the outro is new, but it was really cool lol.
Dear creator: love the channel, fastest I've ever subscribed and the only channel I receive notifications for. Given that...my issues with your analysis. At the beginning of the battle, the entirety of the intelligence that Yoda (I'm just gonna assume he is the planner of the battle as in the film) has at the start of the battle, the movie has you beat. The Republic has an intelligence asset (Kenobi) who has potentially vital knowledge of...something. Yoda doesn't know that there is a Separatist movement yet, just that something strange is going on and Kenobi is the key. Given this, it makes sense to dispatch special forces (Jedi) to retrieve that asset and determine the threat. The only reason to have a clone army in reserve must be due to Jedi magic, because there is no other way that Yoda could have known about the extent of the Separatist presence on Geonosis. This is comparable to a US spy reporting something odd from his post in Toronto and immediately going dark, so you send an elite team to find and extract him/her. The movie posits: That team finds the asset as well as evidence of an impending invasion force, so troops must be deployed to eliminate the threat. You posit: Spy goes dark, elite team dispatched while simultaneously raining death on the entire city for...reasons? Many Monday morning generals fall victim to the trap of perfect intelligence, but given the level of information present to Yoda when he planned this assault, the only reason I can think of why he assumed command of an army and brought it to Geonosis in the first place is the Force. No major military engagement in human history has been staged on as thin evidence of threat as this battle (except for the times when a causus belli was manufactured to start a conflict).
It seemed like the Jedi either went full "Leroy Jenkins!" mode in this battle or just took a page out of Field Marshal Haig's book. Either way, it reminds me of a Blackadder quote: "Our battles are directed, sir?"
Imperial Guard General, "I see nothing wrong here"
Totally agree with your tactics. Here's how I would counter:
1. Reinforce the planetary cannons. These are the only things stopping the Republic ships from getting close, so orbital bombardment would be impossible.
2. Call for reinforcements. In the midst of the battle over the planetary cannons, a sizable Separatist fleet could jump in and block the Republic Cruisers from the planet.
3. Send in boarding parties. With millions of droids on the planet, and the main battle being in space, you may as well put the droids to good use. You can easily identify the bridge on Republic Cruisers (it's unessecarily high), and cripple the ships, gaining the advantage in space.
Eventually, the Republic would be forced to retreat, and I would begin fortifications to insure that an unprepared attack like this never happens again. Let me know how you would counter this!
Battle geonosis:*exist*
General Kenobi: lets attack with no hesitations...
Thank you for doing this video, it answered a few of my questions. As for your strategy, weren't there anti-air batteries guarding the separatist's forces? Also, if your issue is brutality, you could soften up the orbital bombardment; instead of glassing everything where the separatist forces are expected to be, you could utilize another, smaller ground based task force to scout out the area, to allow more precision bombing from the carriers.
This reminds me of when Generation Tech was making their “Everything Wrong with the Battle of ...” and I really missed it. Thanks for this!
I got some ideas about this:
1. I am not sure that some of the heavier machinery could have been sent planetside with transport craft(correct me if i am wrong pls)
because of that this is how i would do it
2. I would land a minor force initially however i would rotate the ships in orbit eventually landing the full force while still maintaining the orbital blockade
3. I am not sure how effective orbital fire would be at some of the geonosian installations since most of them are underground that why i think the larger force is necessary tough i would simply storm in there blindly like the commando's did instead i would have the commando's act in a recon role to identify paths into these dug in facilities and bury them until they can be dealt with.
4. The ground force would not take the offensive instead they would initially feign weakness to try to draw in the majority of the droid army into attempting to deal a "finishing blow" once a sufficient force was confirmed to be in contact the ground forces would call in a focused orbital fire on the droid formations for maximum damage. If this succeeded i would only then start the attack, if i hard spot was encountered i would have the force wait for orbital support instead of engaging. I would also keep a force of LAAT gunships in reserve to help exploit any openings to try to strike any any facilities whose defense was sufficiently reduced.
I love these battle videos! I just wish for the land ones, you could use battle lines like in battlemaps, as to make your videos more accurate. Keep up the good work!
Well said Eck however I have a different counterstroke. I personally would choose the split my entire fleet into three designated battle groups before hyper-spacing into the system. If I can still follow the traditional timeline to where the planet Geonosis still doesn't have a planetary shield and assuming apparently we're completely caught off guard by the assault of the Republic considering they did not believe the Republic had an army or navy and were completely taken off guard from the size of the Republic's forces from what we see in the movie I can strategically continue. Upon entering the system I would still have the fleet as one large group and still carry out the Jedi taking down the planetary defense cannon and carry on with the rescue of Anakin Skywalker Obi-Wan Kenobi and Ambassador Amidala as according to the film however I would change the fact of sending Jedi their completely alone to the surface. I would suggest deploying two to three fully equipped legions of clones to be deployed with the Jedi forces that are taking down the planetary defense cannon. I can say this would workout with a great deal of certainty considering that the planet has no planetary sheild said by Eck and also have the complete element of surprise in my favor considering the CIS never detected the hyperspace signatures of that entire fleet entering the planetary system and the proof is in the fact of the Jedi are able to infiltrate the arena seamlessly unopposed lol. So that would also entail the operation to taking down of the planetary defense cannon went off without a hitch, probably with no friendly casualties and also without a single battle droid or unlucky enough Geonosin to have guard duty their and missing all the festivities at the arena were able to transmit a communication to HQ saying " Oh carp we're under attack!" Also I would the Jedi take down the cannon and let the transport focus solely of the off loading of troops. So upon receiving that transmission and confirmation from friendly assets on the ground that the target has been neutralized, a quick casualty report, a current status update on the deployment numbers of the legions i.e what precent of the legions has been offloaded to the surface, what elements of the legions i.e. tanks, artillery pieces, transports/gunships and Infantry has been off-loaded onto the planets surface. Most importantly the numbers. I need to know them so if the Jedi need for immediate number of heavy reinforcements they can have it or to repel a seriously unlikely counter-attack by the CIS it that situation numbers matter! I could hastily but strategically consolidate a scratch legion from what ever currently available assets from all the legions that are combat effective (as in boots on the ground and not in line to deploy) available to me now. Lastly but most importantly a on the fly ETA from Mace Windu on how far are the Jedi are into their rescue mission of the hostages?
"Also I would send like two or three battalions of clones as a mixed with arc troopers, commando troopers and the rest mainly Infantry with Mace Windu in the Jedi. These clones would simply be there as a quick reactionary response forces so if the Jedi require immediate assistance "like when we see in the movie when the Jedi are down to a few Jedi and are about to get annihilated by Count Dooku's droid army scene" assistance and or as rear guard security so that the Jedi don't get out flanked our out maneuvered while they're in the arena. More like massacred." Anyway getting back on topic after getting that all of that initial information quickly and as accurately as computing-ly as possible I would then commence Phase 2 of my assault on the planet of Geonosis since I want to exploit my window of surprisal to its full advantage. My fleet would then be order to then begin splitting up into the three pre-designated battle groups designated alpha, bravo and charlie. As a newly-promoted Admiral or general Jedi I would I don't know read a book before leading people into the fire. So greatly want to see the performance of all of my military assets at my disposal and get an overall sense of what those said assets capabilities, deficiencies strengths, weaknesses and tactical approaches to three dimensional situations that Galactic Civil War brings. Being force sensitive I can sense that these clones are in fact not minds beings and in a since being somewhat of a good Jedi I would want to limit casualties as much as the force will permit me to do so. So with our actually knowing nothing about this randomly created grand army other than what I have been told some really,... really,... really, really, really tall and very genetical purest racist elitist (And yes I had to say it that way because I'm a registered independent simply for the reasons why I had to word it that way. That was not a dis at conservative and it certainly was not a vindication for liberals either.) and they never actually seen real-life combat engagements with enemy hostiles that have blasters of their very own too and theirs are set to kill not stun. So yeah a critique of there first performances as Army and Naval components is a must. Battle group Alpha accompanied by battle group Bravo would proceed in the landing operation of the clone troops at the original location from seen in the movie. However battle group Alpha's main objective will be in the offload all of its troops onto the battlefield whereas battle group Bravo shall provide overwatch in the form of strategic and orbital bombardments on key CIS facilities in low orbit. When completion of battle fleet Alpha's objective has been achieved battle fleet Bravo will interchange with battle fleet Alpha and interchange mission roles by becoming the new deployment platform asset into the field and battle fleet Alpha will assume battle fleet Bravo's role in becoming the heavy hitters in providing strategic and orbital bombardments. This will greatly aid in keeping a constant and steady stream of troopers into the battlefield supported with close air support and if necessary quick, reliable, accurate and precise heavy Naval ordnance at appallingly close range. Not to mention as well as keeping your enemy off balance considering there are getting a constant screen of ionized plasma from all vectors. Since droids never use cover in this movie. Also this may possible provide better cover for the clone troopers in the form of cratering up the naturally flat and desolate surface of the planet Geonosis for cover. Then again most definitely in simply just obliterating the enemy forces since battle droids have no belief in self preservation you can melt them to scrap before they can get in range to engage the friendly forces on the ground. Granted this is a risky and difficult maneuver to pull off but it done right I believe it would be highly effective and yes I do mean when the deploying platform has fully deployed. And not change when one ship empty with one from group Bravo lol. Again noob clones sorry. So when battle group Bravo objective is complete in offloading all of its troops it will then join battle group Alpha and resume its original mission objective combining both groups into one. Battle group Charlie will provide security from any counter attacks from CIS reinforcements and as a blockade around the planet to prevent any type of escape by the CIS or the CIS Droid Command centers that are lucky enough get past those two battle groups in close low orbit; will simply just get mopped up by battle group Charlie. Once the hostages are secured the defense cannon raiding party would link up with the main allied forces and the movie can resume with Anakin, Obi-Wan and Padme chase scene of Count Dooku.
Please let me know what you personally think Eck and sorry I try writing what what you ask to see in the comments but this this was way to much fun for me as a writer. Also everyone else too!!! Am I giving the clones too much credit in being able to pull off such complicated and accurate maneuvers? I mean they are pretty green in a combat sense. Also Allen over at Generation Tech has informed us that clones all like 10 years old... so they're young, full of eagerness and possible a bunch incompetent kids in late puberty? LMAO. Joking Clones are... one word "ARC-77"!!!
If you think my plan is trash you can use the original because remember that epic battle plan was drafted by a miniaturised frog that was a colonel and a good nap reader lol.
And yes I'm sure there type o's and grammar errors but I did it on the fly and I'm looking over and editing it because I'm actually a writer but I have to take my time.
Good video. I wonder though were the Clones anticipating an all-out battle to the death with the droids? The Trade Federation insisted that all available droids immediately be sent into battle but because of Count Dooku, who wants a long galactic war, they retreat. Of course, Palpatine doesn't want a total victory at Geonosis either but as far as I know he had no direct effect on the outcome of this battle.
It may have been bad tactics, but dang did it look good on the big screen!
I
Clone troopers to Mace Windu: "Hello sir, we are millions of copies of the bounty hunter you just killed (Jango Fett)"
Mace Windu: "Cool, let's go blow up those spaceships!"
From the title of this video, I was expecting it to be about how battles in Star Wars tend to get portrayed like they're Napoleonic line battles with all the soldiers just charging into each others' firing line, waving their guns around wildly...
I think one thing to remember is this is the republics first use of this military force. They haven’t been in a full scale war for decades. Plus, according to a deleted scene in the film, they thought they could shut down the droids like in TPM by capturing the droid control ship. As a first engagement with no clue what they were going up against whatsoever and completely rushing in due to the limited time scale, it makes sense that their tactics were far from perfect.
The republic fleet curbstomping the droid army does sounds pretty fun to watch
Hey EckhartsLadder, I was just wondering if you've covered any Rebels content on your channel already, because if you haven't, I think it would be really interesting if you covered some of the battles on there, and some of the main characters, such as Rebels Thrawn, etc.
I always wondered why the Republic never used more orbital bombardment. One of the reasons I enjoy Halo and Mass Effect is that its clear in both that many land battles are really decided by the use of warships to launch orbital bombardment of enemy planets. When the Covenant for example, do engage in land wars, its usually because they have specific objectives they need to accomplish, for example securing particular Forerunner sites or destroying planetary defenses to facilitate orbital bombardment.
YES...A video talking about the battle I can rant on! LET'S DO THIS!
Great video, but you did leave out the Republic Commandos that were active to destroy the foundries and at least one core ship which did play a part in reducing the number of droids in the battle
Wile that makes sense there is one very important thing you didn’t account for! And it is the reason for the majority of tactical flaws in the Star Wars universe. It is called THE RULE OF COOL!! Because if Star Wars had actual tacticians it would ultimately break and/or completely negat most lightsaber/space/blaster fights.
In Republic Commando, you see factories deep underground impervious to bombardment. Ground troops would have had to take them out either way.
In republic commando, they say that the squad is sent after a factory deep underground that cant be destroyed from the air. Also that the battle was a diversion for this op to be completed also they have to find and kill Sun Fac the leader of the native forces.
As either a Jedi or as a commander, I can think of several other ways and plans to capture genotia in better ways, I agree with yours but it is brutal. It all makes sense. I absolutely love your videos on halo and especially Star Wars I hope to one day have discussion with you on it, I discovered your videos during my surgical recovery and I appreciate what you do, thank you and keep up the good work
My guess is the Republic wanted to brute force their way to victory. They had a brand new army that the separatists weren't expecting and thought they had outsmarted the Jedi, so the Republic wanted to strike fast and hard. That's probably why. They though they could have Anakin, obi wan, and a few clones face count dooku while they took out the ground forces and destroyed the closest starship
I have a feeling "Republic Fleet Bombards Planet from Orbit" wouldn't look to well in the morning papers either.
One issue I must point out is most of the droid foundries were underground or under enough protection to essentially resist if not provide basic immunity to orbital fire. Delta Squad, and several other clone commando units in legends had to be sent in to cripple if not destroy the droid foundries. The only exposed targets were the CIS navy’s Techno union and Federation core ships. So you would need a fair number of troops to at least cause a distraction large enough to infiltrate commando units and put a lot of punishment on the CIS navy before they get airborne. Now I will agree that not every capital ship should have landed, but enough to take out what escapes the ground forces.
I would have spread out my leadership to keep some alive I would then deploy droids lead by grievous (he was there) and recapture the defensive guns and wait for reinforcements
The Forerunners vs The Imperium of Man
(Warhammer 40k vs Halo)
Both Factions are at their prime and have access to the all their equipment that includes AI like Offensive and Mendicant Bias and all their super weapons.
If you look at 2:56 to 3:00 The Separatist had 3 federation Carriers or more most likely each being supported by 2 capital ships as support off screen and 4 cruisers. You’d think the republic would actually send some capital ships with those transports instead of sending 17 cruisers that has the sole purpose of transporting troops. And surely the federation ships have sensors right??? I mean they sole purpose of these ships is to protect the shipment from pirates. And yet they haven’t even moved their ships to intercept, destroy or if they can’t fight the ships, support . If I was the separatists I would’ve sent 1/2 of the fighters to the ground and evacuated the leaders into space where the leaders would be safer. Then I would take the Speeders that they have them prepare to flank and send in the B1 with some b2 in the between . The rest will be in reserve .I am going to station the droids on the top to the bottom garrisons and evacuate the corps so when the clones attack they’ll find little to no resistance also on the bottom I believe there is a hill that is probably a ideal position to put the reserves and the put the spider droids. As the garrison on the bottom will actually not attack in open ground but in bunkers where they can defend. Also the spitfire will act as artillery and anti air instead of tanks for a frontal charge