Fina - Caitha - Velka Three Goddesses who are one Goddess Clotho - Lacheses - Atropos A Goddess figure having three names or sides totally tracks with all the mythology references, gang. I think Robin nailed it.
Gwyndolin is a stand in for the missing daughter, Filianore. An experiment of Seath and a cover for Filianore going to the Ringed City to keep it frozen in time.
Not being that guy but Demeter was Zeus’ sister and Guanyu’s iconic weapon isn’t a sword but the Guan Dao Green Dragon Crescent blade, named after him.
I was literally just about to be "that guy" XD I´m glad I've read the messages first!! I find very funny how, in order to speak about DS, a game trilogy that lasted less than a decade, we analise every single detail of it, read every item, and analyse every enviromental clue. But if we want to make a point about Greco-latin mythology, a culture with a life span of a milenia, we just read wikipedia, and not very well, and think "that shuld do" XD
I’ve always seen Velka as Hera. Hera just as Velka was ruthless and willing to punish anyone who was traitor. Also.crows were confirmed intially to be followers of Velka and crows are historlically linked to Hera aswell.
I always felt that Gwyn was closer to Wotan from Richard Wagner's, Der Ring des Nibelungen. The king of the gods who's actions leaves a wound in the world that will not heal. Eventually his own actions leads to his downfall and the end of the world.
@@Arkygator AND the plot its on hold for many years waiting for a chosen hero to unravel it. He is decieved several times before he finds out who is good and who is bad. And the whole thing is a ring, like the dark sign XD I will say, this opera is based on a clasic myth, and all myths have more or less the same structures and symbols. I think Miyazaki is very aware of this, and just made a very nice salad with all of them.
I really loved this theory! I wonder if Fina and Velka could be double aspects of one goddess, like the protector and the avenger? The Darkmoon Blades both punish the guilty and protect Anor Londo after all, and maybe Fina/Velka's primary role was as the protector of the city. It would explain why Gwyndolyn oversees the Darkmoons, as they inherited both of their parents' duties when everyone else abandoned Anor Londo, plus explaining why both forms seem to be worshipped in Carim concurrently. I love the idea that Fina/Velka led the plot against the gods, whether because Gwyn pushed her away or because she knew he didn't have the strength to save the flame, and maybe ceased to be Fina at all by turning against her city. Maybe the Fina aspect becomes Caitha the weeping goddess because of the tragedy, like Mary after the crucifixion in Christian art, while Velka the vengeful aspect persisted? Anyway it's so fun to speculate, thanks to you all for all your great podcasts!
If u look at The miracles themselves,u can see that Gwyndolin wasnt completely hid from existence . The picture is Gwyn ,Gwyndolin behind him and there are Silver Knights. .
Thank you Robin for sharing your theory! :) and for presenting the evidence so deftly! I mean, if this theory is accurate (seems solid to me) that means there is essentially an entire subplot of the story told via coded statues and their location, how cool is that? And potentially no one has called it out until years after the game’s release! The environmental storytelling in these games just does not stop impressing me.
While the PSA was happening I was just imagining Richie in that black and white old timey commercial half sitting on a desk "Well hello there fellas" style.
I like this theory a lot, and I think it ties in neatly with Dark Souls 3 as well especially with the Sable Church of Londor. We have 3 sisters who can symbolically work as three aspects of Velka, Fina, and Caitha who have connection to ending the rule of the gods. Their ritual takes place in the Darkmoon Tomb where Gwyndolin once resided and is designed to wrest the fire away from the gods and end the original sin of Gwyn. There’s also the connections with Carim which is associated with Fina through Lautrec and Caitha through Apostle Morne. I also find it thematically compelling that in some ways this goddess is the one pushing the Chosen Undead/Unkindled Ash towards their destiny, via the crow transporting you from the asylum and the many connections with the Painted Worlds.
Considering how out and about Gwyndolin is, I would like to make the point that maybe it WAS Gwyn's kid, and that HE was the one who cheated with Seath.
Farther in now... I'd say the problem with Fina turning into Velka is that worship of Fina and Velka seem to exist simultaneously and distinctly in Carim, and if anything seem to be at odds. It would require one goddess to be behind both the assassination of the firekeeper as well as the retribution against that act - it is a punishable offense to kill the firekeeper, a sin, policed by a combination of Velka's church and the Darkmoon Knights, and the Black Eye Orb that materializes upon that assassination's success is hinted at being connected to Velka _"Invade the world of the murderer of a Fire Keeper, to defeat the perpetrator and reclaim the soul of the Fire Keeper. The Black Eye keeps constant watch on the city of the Gods, Anor Londo"_ , something like a Top Priority mission from Velka directly, circumventing the Darkmoon apparatus entirely. It's quite possible that Lautrec is in Anor Londo to find and kill Gwyndolin, and Velka knows this and intervenes by sending you to stop him. The moon itself both literally and figuratively watches over Anor Londo in the form of the actual moon being the celestial body above Anor Londo at all times, in addition to the Velka-Darkmoon revenge complex protecting the city and institutions of Anor Londo.
For your consideration: Fina, Velka, and Caitha as triplets with a psychic link with each other, or at least who are very close with each other. Best friends and sisters until the end, and able to dress as each other to fill in roles if one is not available. Consider also that Gwyndolin's clothing may have once been Fina's - such an ostentatious crown surely wouldn't belong to a deformed prince so much as a queen of sunlight. Further, anything found in Gwyn's tomb was likely left behind by specific close relatives. It begs the question of whether Gwyndolin's clothing was what was in the empty chest, and it also made me wonder about the original owner of the brass set, and the implications of the Darkmoon Knightess wearing a copy of the set. Bonus detail; the brass helm appears to have a tiara crown inlaid with silver above the eye slits.
Robin sells himself short; this theory maybe only has one hinge with a missing screw on the scale of unhinged Velka theories. (Though as far as Richie's PSA goes, I must say that because of its length I let Bloodborne Up Close III go unwatched for over a week because I thought it was a joke title and they'd end up talking Reborn or something.)
I personally think Gwyn never exiled the firstborn. The firstborn left a miracle on gwyns tomb at his departure, meaning he was still there when the flame was linked.
@@SinclairLore Thank You Sin. I just want you to know, if you hadn't figured it out by now, from me, YOU have a wonderful personality, you're laugh is infectious, you are smart, respectful and produce great content. Thanks for the work! And YES, just take the well-deserved compliment, because it is true.
Though I think it’s to simplified to equate Gwynevyre and Demeter, she is a goddess of bounty, and spring, but Gwynevyre could just as easily be tied to Eos goddess of the dawn, or more likely not comparable to any of them one for one like Gwyn is for Zeus. I mean the God of War here is a disgraced but noble man while Ares is a doucher. I do like the Seath/Gwendolin theories here from Robin! My headcanon was always Gwyn had an Affair with Seath and Seath might be female or possibly a fertile hermaphrodite. But actually Gwendolin being raised in a dress to avoid the tentacle notice makes sense somewhat, snake feet remind me of Typhon. And to lend credence to Gwendolin being not the daughter of Gwyn and Seath but of Seath and Gwyn’s wife is Gwendolin’s size, he is mortal sized and that could be because he is a demigod not of the bearer of a lord soul but of a normal god, as Gwyn was huge before sacrifice and so was his daughters.
@@theanarchistcook at least some legends attribute Aphrodite as being of Zeus, I don’t know any stories saying the same for Demeter, who was his sister.
So I've watched it and then I thought about it and I came up with some modifications. So the part about mother of Gwyn's children becoming Velka makes a lot of sens with presented evidence. And making the reason of a departure Gwyndolin would create a nice parallel with Oceiros, his wife and Ocelotte. But that would imply she had some disgust for Gwyndolin which is not present in the games. It can however by explained by another character with connections to both Velka and Gwyndolin - Priscilla. She is part god part dragon and Velka was for a long time theorised to be her mother. Priscilla may in turn be a mother of Gwyndolin as well as Yorshka and Painter (Lokey's theory). That may explain both her distancing herself from Anor and her conection to Gwyndolin in both 1&3.
Only 3m16s in so forgive me if this gets covered, but the statue being random seems at odds with the fact that it was custom made for the game and features the sword of a Lordran knight. Besides that however I don't see any reason to suspect that it is Fina, given that it is a Way of the White chapel in Lordran, and nothing connects Fina to the Way of the White except negatively in the form of the one Fina worshipper we encounter, Lautrec, murdering the Way of the White's Firekeeper. The Way of the White is organized around the worship and service of Gwyn's family, and in the outside world is based in Thoruland, from where it sends out pilgrimages to Lordran. Carim, home of Fina worship, at some point seemingly conquers or destroys Thoruland, and in either case eventually assimilates - and becomes the new 'home' of - the Way of the White, which at some point has transitioned away from Gwyn and reorganized around worship of Caitha, and possibly Velka. Perhaps Fina 'turns into' Caitha over time, but as of Dark Souls 1 it is not clear why a worshipper of Fina would assassinate someone from the same church as the one featuring the statue, if the statue were of Fina. If Fina were associated with the Way of the White, she probably wouldn't like her followers destructively interfering with one of their core institutions.
If by Thorolund being destroyed by Carim you are refering to its loss of importance in DS3, then that's probably because Gwyndolin replaced Lloyd as allfather, and he and Thorolund have lost all their favour and importance. It's true that Carim in DS3 has become really important for the way of white, since that's where firekeepers come from, and it does look like Velka/Caitha have a more prominent role than before in the faith.
Some Gods in Pagan custom also have several different names, or rather Epithets like Hera herself may be called Hera Alexandros, Protector of Man or Hera Basileia, The Queen depends on the locality of people who worship and nurture her, or the occasion the gods may be called. Others like Persephone even change name from; Kore, The Maiden to Queen of Underworld Persephone Praxidice in Orphic beliefs. There is also a Goddess in Javanese-Hinduism who changed name, Batari Uma cursed by her Husband to forever reign as Queen of The Underworld, or a Underworld Adjacent, Setragandamayit as Batari Durga. The spicy part of this elucidation is, Velka or Fina as The Queen of the Gods, have similar interchangeable name like India-Hinduism counterpart of Batari Uma, The Goddess Parvati, wife to Mahadeva Shiva, who may takes another form or name as she please; Devi Durga, The Slayer of Demons, or Devi Kali, Destroyer of Worlds, Goddess of Time and Change, among many other names.
I'll have you know its not 3 people I just let it auto play your older content, and sometimes I'm not paying attention, don't care, or am asleep. That said. Keep up the good work
A fun theory!! but, despite thinking he has a point, and that he is moving an interesting direction, I think the theory itself needs better evidences, this whole thing is based purely on a happy hunch. I will try to keep it short here XD First thing here is a basic point here that is very commonly used, and is the aparent similarity between Greek-Roman mythology and DS pantheon. This might be true, infact, many pantheons are very similar in essence. But here I think we are interpreting this "similarity" wrong. We see Gwin as the leader of the pantheon and he seems to be throwing lighting bolts in the opening cinematic, and we think he must be Zeus. But he isnt the god of lighting or thunder, like Zeus or Thor might be. Gwin is the lord of Sunlight, his crown is decorated with sun rays, his symbol is the Sun, his covenant is about Sunlight, and the miracle we get from his soul is "Sunlight Spear" which is described as "rays of sunlight". He isnt the thunder God, he is The Sun God, The God Of Light, and that is why he is also asociated with fire, as Sun always is. I mean...Pray the Sun, not the thunder!! This will make Apollo, and not Zeus, the closest choice in Greek-Roman myths. But this on itself is very interesting!! because Apollo is the Sun and his sister is Artemis, the Moon. This is basically the whole theme of DS, specially light and dark Anor Londo, the dark sun and the moonlight covenant, and Gwendolin etc. I think there is a fairly good field of investigation there. I will say aswell, than in post-wrting cultures in the mediterranean, The Sun tends to be male and the Moon female, but in older times, aswell as other mythologies like the nordic and germanic ones, The Sun is female and the Moon masculine, and this might be what Miyyazaki was talking about with all that gender shifting Gwendolin. (and in japan, Amaterasu is the female Sun and Tsukuyomi the male Moon right?) The second thing is that, even when I enjoyed the theory and it makes some fair points, you can't make a theory just saying "I think this statue is Fina" and not gice any further explanation. There is no evidence that points out that specific statue might be Fina at any point. Infact, there is no evidence that points to the identity of any of those female statues, with the sception of Velka and the Painting statue, and even there, it might not be her neither. Contrary to Caitha, goddess of tears, in DS3, where the statues that are now covered with cloth are crying, so it might be the goddess of Tears. But there isnt a symbolical conection at all in between any goddess and any of the female statues in DS1. From Fina we know she is all about love and comitment, and that she is beautifull. Nothing about a todler, or a sword, or beign a mum, or giving birth, or being related with the firelink at all, apart from Louthrec, who is just passing by. In that case though, his armour is left behind in Anor Londo, where he is ganking with his mates. Why does that nameless statue has to be Fina, which is aparently another name for Velka? Why not beign another name for Gwinivere instead? I mean, she is pretty. (this isnt a theory XD I just wanted to make the point that you could call everyone Fina, or Velka or Caitha, because the fact is that we dont know who they are) The same way, there is little evidence that conects Velka and Fina at all. The only conection seems to be that Fina is conected to Loutrec because of the ring of Favour, and to Xantous, also because of the ring (an exchange you could make with the bird). And then Loutrec is from Karim, and Oswald the Pardoner, priest of Velka, is from Karim. And then Velka knows all the magic, the old and the new, and she is a witch, and because the only other witch is Ithalit, and Queelana is Xantous teacher...its a bit messy but that is the conexion. And its messy because is thin and weak. I hope you all see what I mean, if you were able to read this God damn TED talk that is XD. Anyways!! Im a big fan of this channel, you guys are great, and I hope you keep pushing it forward for a long time!!! Best Wishes.
@@SinclairLore Sorry for my cryptic question, recently he has posted videos with interesting observations about Dark Souls lore and how it seems to be heavily inspired by philosphy and religious themes.
Sin please, please, please let me come on your podcast. There is some stuff that has not been said that makes the connections. Fina I believe is not Gwyn's wife, that's his daughter, his first daughter Gwynevere. Fina is based on Aphrodite, she was married to hephaestus, and the nameless blacksmith deity is based on hephaestus. Velka is the missing daughter of chaos. the ring of sacrifice is made from humanity and the server, which should be called the sacrificial blade is used to make that the rings of sacrifice. The server's text changes when you give is a fire or chaos infusion, to reference heretical power. Velka is actually not a rouge deity but a heretical deity, she is also known as a black haired witch aka a daughter of chaos. Chaos + Dark = Heretical. Velka I believe is the mother Gwyndolin as he is the god who oversees the book of the guilty aka those who have committed sins while Velka is a goddess of sin and vengeance. I believe Anastacia is the daughter of Fina aka Gwynevere. There is so much more to say on this topic.
@@vasylpark2149 Yes, I first thought it because Velka's talisman lets miracles scale with intelligence and the catalyst derived from Gwyndolin's soul lets you have sorceries scaled with faith, kind of the same thing but in inverse; and also because both are associated strongly with moon; Gwyndolin was made to appear as female, with, together with whole moon connection and his sorceries implies witchcraft, so I thought he inherited it from his mother, i.e. Velka.
Its good to see im not alone when thinking this . Ive always thought all of this in the back of my head when it came to Velka . Ive even typed the connections in my phone in my notepad app ....
Gwyn didn't disown his son, the firstborn left a miracle on his tomb before leaving Anor Londo to dick around with dragons. Taking into account Gwyndolin was born with the power of the moon, which is derivative of the power of the sun, how devout Gwyndolin is to Gwyn and his legacy, the fact he is confirmed as an actual god, and that he is the brother of Yorshka, therefore Priscilla is probably his mother (so he must get his godly blood from somewhere), i think it's really obvious Gwyn is his father.
I take it more like both Gwyndolin and Priscilla are the children of Seath. Gwyndolin being the son of Seath and Gwyn's 'wife' (who could possibly be Fina/Velka as per this theory). Priscilla being the daughter of Seath and Gwynevere. Technically that would make them half-siblings but also uncle and niece. I always interpreted Yorshka as just a weird reincarnation of Priscilla.
@@JimothyTheGreen My problem with the theory of Priscilla being the daughter of Gwynevere is that there isn't really much proof when you think about it. Her size isn't an argument, since Gwynevere was most likely not that large (we have seen her father, her brothers and her bed, and they were "normal" sized). The pisacas are a good point, but we know that when Gwynevere left, she left quietly, and most thought they were still serving her. Seath just took advantage there were some women nearby and that no one would notice their absence, so he took them for his experiments. Their presence in game isn't proof Seath even interacted with Gwynevere. And the last common argument is that Gwynevere left Anor Londo, and most people think it was because of Seath, but so did most other gods. They thought their age was ending and followed Lloyd's example by moving to the human realms.
Actually Hera isn't punishing Zeus, she is punishing his lovers (regardless how willing they were to have affair with Zeus in the first place; see Io, Alkmene, Maya). She is powerless to do anything to Zeus but complain, and once Hera's complains so annoyed Zeus, he chained her to Olympus and Hephaestus got maimed because he tried to protect his mother from his father's wrath.
Demeter isn't the daughter of Zeus. Demeter is an elder sister sister of Zeus, like Hera and Hestia. The Titans Cronus and Rhea had 7 children in total: Hestia, Demeter, Hera, Chiron, Hades, Poseidon, Zeus. (Though, in some versions of the myths, Rhea became Demeter some time after the birth of Zeus.)
The Reborn PSA by Ritchie was hilarious.
Fina - Caitha - Velka
Three Goddesses who are one Goddess
Clotho - Lacheses - Atropos
A Goddess figure having three names or sides totally tracks with all the mythology references, gang.
I think Robin nailed it.
Gwyndolin is a stand in for the missing daughter, Filianore. An experiment of Seath and a cover for Filianore going to the Ringed City to keep it frozen in time.
7:45 here are a lot of small statues of children with swords in irithyll
Not being that guy but Demeter was Zeus’ sister and Guanyu’s iconic weapon isn’t a sword but the Guan Dao Green Dragon Crescent blade, named after him.
I was going to be that guy about Demeter, so I'm glad you got there first!
I was literally just about to be "that guy" XD I´m glad I've read the messages first!! I find very funny how, in order to speak about DS, a game trilogy that lasted less than a decade, we analise every single detail of it, read every item, and analyse every enviromental clue. But if we want to make a point about Greco-latin mythology, a culture with a life span of a milenia, we just read wikipedia, and not very well, and think "that shuld do" XD
I’ve always seen Velka as Hera. Hera just as Velka was ruthless and willing to punish anyone who was traitor. Also.crows were confirmed intially to be followers of Velka and crows are historlically linked to Hera aswell.
I always felt that Gwyn was closer to Wotan from Richard Wagner's, Der Ring des Nibelungen. The king of the gods who's actions leaves a wound in the world that will not heal. Eventually his own actions leads to his downfall and the end of the world.
Very good point. And in the opera, the ring itself is a representation of its own "sin", apart from being related with the Sun.
@@r.p.193 Wotan has also put all his trust into Logi, who is the embodiment of fire.
@@Arkygator AND the plot its on hold for many years waiting for a chosen hero to unravel it. He is decieved several times before he finds out who is good and who is bad. And the whole thing is a ring, like the dark sign XD
I will say, this opera is based on a clasic myth, and all myths have more or less the same structures and symbols. I think Miyazaki is very aware of this, and just made a very nice salad with all of them.
@@r.p.193 Yeah, I think that man reads more than just Berserk.
@@Arkygator Well, we know for sure he likes Lovecraft right? XD
I really loved this theory! I wonder if Fina and Velka could be double aspects of one goddess, like the protector and the avenger? The Darkmoon Blades both punish the guilty and protect Anor Londo after all, and maybe Fina/Velka's primary role was as the protector of the city. It would explain why Gwyndolyn oversees the Darkmoons, as they inherited both of their parents' duties when everyone else abandoned Anor Londo, plus explaining why both forms seem to be worshipped in Carim concurrently. I love the idea that Fina/Velka led the plot against the gods, whether because Gwyn pushed her away or because she knew he didn't have the strength to save the flame, and maybe ceased to be Fina at all by turning against her city. Maybe the Fina aspect becomes Caitha the weeping goddess because of the tragedy, like Mary after the crucifixion in Christian art, while Velka the vengeful aspect persisted? Anyway it's so fun to speculate, thanks to you all for all your great podcasts!
If u look at The miracles themselves,u can see that Gwyndolin wasnt completely hid from existence . The picture is Gwyn ,Gwyndolin behind him and there are Silver Knights. .
Thank you Robin for sharing your theory! :) and for presenting the evidence so deftly!
I mean, if this theory is accurate (seems solid to me) that means there is essentially an entire subplot of the story told via coded statues and their location, how cool is that? And potentially no one has called it out until years after the game’s release!
The environmental storytelling in these games just does not stop impressing me.
I appreciate you guys still doing Dark Souls videos. I am still up for it!
While the PSA was happening I was just imagining Richie in that black and white old timey commercial half sitting on a desk "Well hello there fellas" style.
I like this theory a lot, and I think it ties in neatly with Dark Souls 3 as well especially with the Sable Church of Londor. We have 3 sisters who can symbolically work as three aspects of Velka, Fina, and Caitha who have connection to ending the rule of the gods. Their ritual takes place in the Darkmoon Tomb where Gwyndolin once resided and is designed to wrest the fire away from the gods and end the original sin of Gwyn. There’s also the connections with Carim which is associated with Fina through Lautrec and Caitha through Apostle Morne. I also find it thematically compelling that in some ways this goddess is the one pushing the Chosen Undead/Unkindled Ash towards their destiny, via the crow transporting you from the asylum and the many connections with the Painted Worlds.
Cool, love the lore about the gods
Considering how out and about Gwyndolin is, I would like to make the point that maybe it WAS Gwyn's kid, and that HE was the one who cheated with Seath.
Robin is really funny and has great ideas, I hope she comes on again some other time!!!
Farther in now... I'd say the problem with Fina turning into Velka is that worship of Fina and Velka seem to exist simultaneously and distinctly in Carim, and if anything seem to be at odds. It would require one goddess to be behind both the assassination of the firekeeper as well as the retribution against that act - it is a punishable offense to kill the firekeeper, a sin, policed by a combination of Velka's church and the Darkmoon Knights, and the Black Eye Orb that materializes upon that assassination's success is hinted at being connected to Velka _"Invade the world of the murderer of a Fire Keeper, to defeat the perpetrator and reclaim the soul of the Fire Keeper. The Black Eye keeps constant watch on the city of the Gods, Anor Londo"_ , something like a Top Priority mission from Velka directly, circumventing the Darkmoon apparatus entirely. It's quite possible that Lautrec is in Anor Londo to find and kill Gwyndolin, and Velka knows this and intervenes by sending you to stop him. The moon itself both literally and figuratively watches over Anor Londo in the form of the actual moon being the celestial body above Anor Londo at all times, in addition to the Velka-Darkmoon revenge complex protecting the city and institutions of Anor Londo.
Yet Oswald of Carim basically congratulates us for killing Gwyndolin.
I think Velka was in charge of the Darkmoon Blades until she went rogue and that passed to Gwyndolin.
For your consideration: Fina, Velka, and Caitha as triplets with a psychic link with each other, or at least who are very close with each other. Best friends and sisters until the end, and able to dress as each other to fill in roles if one is not available.
Consider also that Gwyndolin's clothing may have once been Fina's - such an ostentatious crown surely wouldn't belong to a deformed prince so much as a queen of sunlight. Further, anything found in Gwyn's tomb was likely left behind by specific close relatives. It begs the question of whether Gwyndolin's clothing was what was in the empty chest, and it also made me wonder about the original owner of the brass set, and the implications of the Darkmoon Knightess wearing a copy of the set. Bonus detail; the brass helm appears to have a tiara crown inlaid with silver above the eye slits.
Robin sells himself short; this theory maybe only has one hinge with a missing screw on the scale of unhinged Velka theories. (Though as far as Richie's PSA goes, I must say that because of its length I let Bloodborne Up Close III go unwatched for over a week because I thought it was a joke title and they'd end up talking Reborn or something.)
That theory makes some sense to me. It makes Velka's character a lot more fleshed out and interesting.
Is it worth noting that the dragon the nameless King rides is the only one with any vaguely corvian features
Cool theory, very much enjoyed it!
I personally think Gwyn never exiled the firstborn. The firstborn left a miracle on gwyns tomb at his departure, meaning he was still there when the flame was linked.
First sin can be izalith withch experiment too or sinclair
Great conversations here and awesome lore!
@@SinclairLore Thank You Sin. I just want you to know, if you hadn't figured it out by now, from me, YOU have a wonderful personality, you're laugh is infectious, you are smart, respectful and produce great content. Thanks for the work! And YES, just take the well-deserved compliment, because it is true.
@@MrBedZeppelin ;-; aw ty
Though I think it’s to simplified to equate Gwynevyre and Demeter, she is a goddess of bounty, and spring, but Gwynevyre could just as easily be tied to Eos goddess of the dawn, or more likely not comparable to any of them one for one like Gwyn is for Zeus. I mean the God of War here is a disgraced but noble man while Ares is a doucher.
I do like the Seath/Gwendolin theories here from Robin! My headcanon was always Gwyn had an Affair with Seath and Seath might be female or possibly a fertile hermaphrodite.
But actually Gwendolin being raised in a dress to avoid the tentacle notice makes sense somewhat, snake feet remind me of Typhon. And to lend credence to Gwendolin being not the daughter of Gwyn and Seath but of Seath and Gwyn’s wife is Gwendolin’s size, he is mortal sized and that could be because he is a demigod not of the bearer of a lord soul but of a normal god, as Gwyn was huge before sacrifice and so was his daughters.
Yeah, it's not totally one-to-one. Gwynevere and Fina both also share some characteristics with Venus.
@@theanarchistcook at least some legends attribute Aphrodite as being of Zeus, I don’t know any stories saying the same for Demeter, who was his sister.
@@Eldagusto Right.
Wait! Hold on! If Gwyndolin is actually related to Seath would that explain why his sister(?) (Yorshka) looks like Priscilla (daughter of Seath?)?
Gwyndolin is for sure related to Seath, I think the real question is, in what capacity are they related
So I've watched it and then I thought about it and I came up with some modifications.
So the part about mother of Gwyn's children becoming Velka makes a lot of sens with presented evidence. And making the reason of a departure Gwyndolin would create a nice parallel with Oceiros, his wife and Ocelotte. But that would imply she had some disgust for Gwyndolin which is not present in the games. It can however by explained by another character with connections to both Velka and Gwyndolin - Priscilla. She is part god part dragon and Velka was for a long time theorised to be her mother. Priscilla may in turn be a mother of Gwyndolin as well as Yorshka and Painter (Lokey's theory). That may explain both her distancing herself from Anor and her conection to Gwyndolin in both 1&3.
Only 3m16s in so forgive me if this gets covered, but the statue being random seems at odds with the fact that it was custom made for the game and features the sword of a Lordran knight. Besides that however I don't see any reason to suspect that it is Fina, given that it is a Way of the White chapel in Lordran, and nothing connects Fina to the Way of the White except negatively in the form of the one Fina worshipper we encounter, Lautrec, murdering the Way of the White's Firekeeper. The Way of the White is organized around the worship and service of Gwyn's family, and in the outside world is based in Thoruland, from where it sends out pilgrimages to Lordran. Carim, home of Fina worship, at some point seemingly conquers or destroys Thoruland, and in either case eventually assimilates - and becomes the new 'home' of - the Way of the White, which at some point has transitioned away from Gwyn and reorganized around worship of Caitha, and possibly Velka. Perhaps Fina 'turns into' Caitha over time, but as of Dark Souls 1 it is not clear why a worshipper of Fina would assassinate someone from the same church as the one featuring the statue, if the statue were of Fina. If Fina were associated with the Way of the White, she probably wouldn't like her followers destructively interfering with one of their core institutions.
If by Thorolund being destroyed by Carim you are refering to its loss of importance in DS3, then that's probably because Gwyndolin replaced Lloyd as allfather, and he and Thorolund have lost all their favour and importance. It's true that Carim in DS3 has become really important for the way of white, since that's where firekeepers come from, and it does look like Velka/Caitha have a more prominent role than before in the faith.
Some Gods in Pagan custom also have several different names, or rather Epithets like Hera herself may be called Hera Alexandros, Protector of Man or Hera Basileia, The Queen depends on the locality of people who worship and nurture her, or the occasion the gods may be called. Others like Persephone even change name from; Kore, The Maiden to Queen of Underworld Persephone Praxidice in Orphic beliefs. There is also a Goddess in Javanese-Hinduism who changed name, Batari Uma cursed by her Husband to forever reign as Queen of The Underworld, or a Underworld Adjacent, Setragandamayit as Batari Durga. The spicy part of this elucidation is, Velka or Fina as The Queen of the Gods, have similar interchangeable name like India-Hinduism counterpart of Batari Uma, The Goddess Parvati, wife to Mahadeva Shiva, who may takes another form or name as she please; Devi Durga, The Slayer of Demons, or Devi Kali, Destroyer of Worlds, Goddess of Time and Change, among many other names.
I think what gwindolin is gwyn children but not fina children. The fact all the children related to light (moon or sun)
I bet if you ask Richie what's the pleasant torture method, it'll be a close call but still 'waterboarding'>talking about Reborn
I'll have you know its not 3 people
I just let it auto play your older content, and sometimes I'm not paying attention, don't care, or am asleep.
That said. Keep up the good work
Richie is so tired of reborn lol but I like it I just haven’t finished it
Hi Sin!!, Do you have plans on continuing the legacy of kain and dishonored podcast?.
I love your content, greetings from Venezuela.
A fun theory!! but, despite thinking he has a point, and that he is moving an interesting direction, I think the theory itself needs better evidences, this whole thing is based purely on a happy hunch. I will try to keep it short here XD
First thing here is a basic point here that is very commonly used, and is the aparent similarity between Greek-Roman mythology and DS pantheon. This might be true, infact, many pantheons are very similar in essence. But here I think we are interpreting this "similarity" wrong. We see Gwin as the leader of the pantheon and he seems to be throwing lighting bolts in the opening cinematic, and we think he must be Zeus. But he isnt the god of lighting or thunder, like Zeus or Thor might be. Gwin is the lord of Sunlight, his crown is decorated with sun rays, his symbol is the Sun, his covenant is about Sunlight, and the miracle we get from his soul is "Sunlight Spear" which is described as "rays of sunlight". He isnt the thunder God, he is The Sun God, The God Of Light, and that is why he is also asociated with fire, as Sun always is. I mean...Pray the Sun, not the thunder!! This will make Apollo, and not Zeus, the closest choice in Greek-Roman myths. But this on itself is very interesting!! because Apollo is the Sun and his sister is Artemis, the Moon. This is basically the whole theme of DS, specially light and dark Anor Londo, the dark sun and the moonlight covenant, and Gwendolin etc. I think there is a fairly good field of investigation there. I will say aswell, than in post-wrting cultures in the mediterranean, The Sun tends to be male and the Moon female, but in older times, aswell as other mythologies like the nordic and germanic ones, The Sun is female and the Moon masculine, and this might be what Miyyazaki was talking about with all that gender shifting Gwendolin. (and in japan, Amaterasu is the female Sun and Tsukuyomi the male Moon right?)
The second thing is that, even when I enjoyed the theory and it makes some fair points, you can't make a theory just saying "I think this statue is Fina" and not gice any further explanation. There is no evidence that points out that specific statue might be Fina at any point. Infact, there is no evidence that points to the identity of any of those female statues, with the sception of Velka and the Painting statue, and even there, it might not be her neither. Contrary to Caitha, goddess of tears, in DS3, where the statues that are now covered with cloth are crying, so it might be the goddess of Tears. But there isnt a symbolical conection at all in between any goddess and any of the female statues in DS1. From Fina we know she is all about love and comitment, and that she is beautifull. Nothing about a todler, or a sword, or beign a mum, or giving birth, or being related with the firelink at all, apart from Louthrec, who is just passing by. In that case though, his armour is left behind in Anor Londo, where he is ganking with his mates. Why does that nameless statue has to be Fina, which is aparently another name for Velka? Why not beign another name for Gwinivere instead? I mean, she is pretty. (this isnt a theory XD I just wanted to make the point that you could call everyone Fina, or Velka or Caitha, because the fact is that we dont know who they are)
The same way, there is little evidence that conects Velka and Fina at all. The only conection seems to be that Fina is conected to Loutrec because of the ring of Favour, and to Xantous, also because of the ring (an exchange you could make with the bird). And then Loutrec is from Karim, and Oswald the Pardoner, priest of Velka, is from Karim. And then Velka knows all the magic, the old and the new, and she is a witch, and because the only other witch is Ithalit, and Queelana is Xantous teacher...its a bit messy but that is the conexion. And its messy because is thin and weak.
I hope you all see what I mean, if you were able to read this God damn TED talk that is XD.
Anyways!! Im a big fan of this channel, you guys are great, and I hope you keep pushing it forward for a long time!!! Best Wishes.
Have you talked to Max Derrat?
no, who's that?
@@SinclairLore Sorry for my cryptic question, recently he has posted videos with interesting observations about Dark Souls lore and how it seems to be heavily inspired by philosphy and religious themes.
@@FaustBusserl neat!
I want more on this topic pls
Sin please, please, please let me come on your podcast. There is some stuff that has not been said that makes the connections. Fina I believe is not Gwyn's wife, that's his daughter, his first daughter Gwynevere. Fina is based on Aphrodite, she was married to hephaestus, and the nameless blacksmith deity is based on hephaestus. Velka is the missing daughter of chaos. the ring of sacrifice is made from humanity and the server, which should be called the sacrificial blade is used to make that the rings of sacrifice. The server's text changes when you give is a fire or chaos infusion, to reference heretical power. Velka is actually not a rouge deity but a heretical deity, she is also known as a black haired witch aka a daughter of chaos. Chaos + Dark = Heretical. Velka I believe is the mother Gwyndolin as he is the god who oversees the book of the guilty aka those who have committed sins while Velka is a goddess of sin and vengeance. I believe Anastacia is the daughter of Fina aka Gwynevere. There is so much more to say on this topic.
You are the only other person on the internet I've met who also thinks that Velka is Gwyndolin's mother!
@@hiddenshadow2105 you too?
@@vasylpark2149 Yes, I first thought it because Velka's talisman lets miracles scale with intelligence and the catalyst derived from Gwyndolin's soul lets you have sorceries scaled with faith, kind of the same thing but in inverse; and also because both are associated strongly with moon; Gwyndolin was made to appear as female, with, together with whole moon connection and his sorceries implies witchcraft, so I thought he inherited it from his mother, i.e. Velka.
@@hiddenshadow2105 yup those are the exact reason I think so too.
Its good to see im not alone when thinking this . Ive always thought all of this in the back of my head when it came to Velka . Ive even typed the connections in my phone in my notepad app ....
Gwyn didn't disown his son, the firstborn left a miracle on his tomb before leaving Anor Londo to dick around with dragons.
Taking into account Gwyndolin was born with the power of the moon, which is derivative of the power of the sun, how devout Gwyndolin is to Gwyn and his legacy, the fact he is confirmed as an actual god, and that he is the brother of Yorshka, therefore Priscilla is probably his mother (so he must get his godly blood from somewhere), i think it's really obvious Gwyn is his father.
I take it more like both Gwyndolin and Priscilla are the children of Seath. Gwyndolin being the son of Seath and Gwyn's 'wife' (who could possibly be Fina/Velka as per this theory). Priscilla being the daughter of Seath and Gwynevere. Technically that would make them half-siblings but also uncle and niece. I always interpreted Yorshka as just a weird reincarnation of Priscilla.
@@JimothyTheGreen My problem with the theory of Priscilla being the daughter of Gwynevere is that there isn't really much proof when you think about it. Her size isn't an argument, since Gwynevere was most likely not that large (we have seen her father, her brothers and her bed, and they were "normal" sized).
The pisacas are a good point, but we know that when Gwynevere left, she left quietly, and most thought they were still serving her. Seath just took advantage there were some women nearby and that no one would notice their absence, so he took them for his experiments. Their presence in game isn't proof Seath even interacted with Gwynevere.
And the last common argument is that Gwynevere left Anor Londo, and most people think it was because of Seath, but so did most other gods. They thought their age was ending and followed Lloyd's example by moving to the human realms.
Richie’s asides are great, even if he hates them :3
Actually Hera isn't punishing Zeus, she is punishing his lovers (regardless how willing they were to have affair with Zeus in the first place; see Io, Alkmene, Maya). She is powerless to do anything to Zeus but complain, and once Hera's complains so annoyed Zeus, he chained her to Olympus and Hephaestus got maimed because he tried to protect his mother from his father's wrath.
Actually in most versions Hera throws Hephaestus down from Olympus herself out of disgust.
@@StephanuSneed What 'most versions' you read? Can you give me references, so I take a look?
@@hiddenshadow2105 The Iliad and Robert Grave's version of the myths.
@@StephanuSneed Thank you, I will take a look.
Demeter isn't the daughter of Zeus. Demeter is an elder sister sister of Zeus, like Hera and Hestia. The Titans Cronus and Rhea had 7 children in total: Hestia, Demeter, Hera, Chiron, Hades, Poseidon, Zeus.
(Though, in some versions of the myths, Rhea became Demeter some time after the birth of Zeus.)
I'm one of the people that listens to reborn and souls content
Yeeeey
Cool
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