It would have been great to have a ''real'' Beetle, from the same era as the Tatra, parked next to it instead of the modern water-cooled unit shown here. I think it would have made the point even more obvious.
Bylo by skvělé mít vedle sebe zaparkovaného „opravdového“ brouka ze stejné doby jako Tatra, místo moderního vodou chlazeného celku, který je zde znázorněn. Myslím, že by to bylo ještě jasnější.
Me as a Mexican who had the opportunity to have seen both the air cooled Beetle and the new "Beetle" being sold brand new at VW dealerships, I will not EVER see the new "beetle" (yes in quote marks) as the successor of the air cooled one. I will always see it as a Jetta with a wannabe body of a Beetle. It's got nothing to do with the air cooled one except for the body shape. Thank God I still own my trusty air cooled REAL Beetle.
True. They should be ashamed that they recreated such a legendary car so poorly. They should have teamed up with porsche to design a new beetle with porsche's water cooled boxer 4 cylinder in the back instead of creating a new monocoque chassis and bolt on vw golf parts...
@@RikardoKermat Can't stand all those bubble-tops. And then a Beetle with a Porsche engine? How would this attest to Beetle fitting in the people's car category? Beetle should be all about economy, not performance, otherwise it's no longer a Beetle.
There is no doubt that the Type 1 bore a striking resemblance to the earlier Tatra. Tatra launched a lawsuit, but this was stopped when Germany invaded Czechoslovakia. At the same time, Tatra was forced to stop producing the T97. The matter was re-opened after World War II and in 1965 Volkswagen paid Ringhoffer-Tatra 1,000,000 Deutsche Marks in an out of court settlement. The tragedy of Tatra was that it was a great automaker in a then-weak country. And that country would soon be betrayed by France and Great Britain.
+Philip Cooper It's a myth, Ferdinand Porsche designed a car for Mercedes Benz that had a air cooled engine in the back that was shown in the 30's as a concept car but was not manufactured due to the depression. In fact the Tata was so similar looking to the Benz that it was accused of plagiarism when they first started showing it. In other words Porsche had prior art and the Beetle is just a continuation of the Benz and has no connection with the Tata.
Martin Rychtera He originally designed the car for the Soviet Union in 1931 but that design was never shown and possibly never built, Benz version 1932-3 shown around the world as "the car for the future" and is what the Tatra copies, Volkswagen Beetle design 1934-5, Tatra introduced in 1936 I know what the Czech schoolbooks say, have been there, but the timeline does not add up. And is Ferdinand Porsche not Czech enough for you lot?
What made the beetle success was the 'semi' tubular backbone chassis and light-weight Magnesium engine block, but: 1, Mr Porsche designed only one car with such backbone chassis, that was the Type-1 VW-Beetle. The other related vehicle with similar design was the Type 2 VW transporter. Notice that even Porsche 356 shares many commons with the original beetle, but the 356 was a uni-body design. 2, VW Beetle was the only 'successful' pre-WW2 rear engine car. Another unsuccessful pre-WW2 attempt of rear engine design were the Mercedes-Benz 130 and 170H, they also had the tubular backbone chassis, but they did not seem to have the Magnesium engine block. Now take a look the pre-WW2 Tatra (T77 T87 & T97), they were all Magnesium air-cooled engine and backbone chassis design, and actually Tatra was famous for these 2 applications all the time. Another concept that Porsche dead trying but never truly success was putting DOHC onto an air-cooled engine. In history only few racing engines (917 & 908) were ture air-cooled DOHC. 2 other 'mass produced' DOHC Porsche air-cooled engines was 1) 547 '4 cam' engine but it was gear-driven cam and only had 2 valves per cylinder; 2) Porsche 959 engine with 2 cams and 4 valves per cylinder, it was cheating because it has a water-cooled head. Meanwhile most of the Tatra air-cooled V8 engines built after WW2 were DOHC!
Similarities: 4 wheels, 2 front lights, one steering wheel. For the rest there are more cars looking like the original 30s beetle or the Tatra, even from the 1930s. Even despite the fact a german court awarded Skoda money after the war...
don't kid yourselves. Han Ludwinka schooled Porsche in Czechlosovokia in the 1920's...Porsche, a good student was a patent thief and the international courts agreed with that awarding a (then) huge settlement to Motokov the parent co. of Tatra. There are plans to build a brand new Tatraplan in the future being considered. The company still makes world class trucks.
While I'd love to see a new Tatra sedan, I'd be very surprised if an economic case can be made for it. Tatra would face the same development costs (often a billion Euros or more for a new engine design) as any other manufacturer, but the brand cachet that lets e.g. Porsche charge premium prices for its vehicles is largely not there (any longer). Plus, at this point, most manufacturers' cars are contributing little to their profitability, which comes largely from SUVs. If it were relying only on its cars rather than the Cayenne and Macan, Porsche would have gone under years ago. Perhaps Tatra could leverage its truck expertise into selling a credible Land Rover or G-Wagen competitor, but I doubt we'll ever see a genuine Tatra passenger car again.
I am czechoslovakien living in USA now , the Czech used to build everything from needles to locomotives ,it could be better than Swiss, but now it is just Euro union warehouse. From rain -under gutter.
*jeff hammers:* _"Porsche, a good student was a patent thief…"_ - You can't be stolen of what you don't own. Patents aren't property but State-granted monopolies. If Tatra failed to make a dent in the car industry it was because they were a useless piece of shit incapable of building affordable and reliable cars at a large scale. In contrast, Volkswagen knew how to mass produce cheap and dependable cars and make a profit out of it. The market rewards those who bring good ideas to fruition, the only thing that matters. Even Thomas Alva Edison, one of the people with largest number of granted patents, admitted it: the only invention that matters is the one that will make a profit.
You failed to mention that none of the German people got their cars (or lives they were promised) as the factory and economy was ruined after the war. The British saw value in saving the factory, but they handed it back over to the Germans later.
Tatra is officially the third oldest car manufacturer after Benz and Peugeot, firs pioneered the aerodynamic design in wind tunnel back in 30's when Ford was still making model T .WV / Porsche has lost the court case with Tatra and was ordered to pay decades of compensation.That is one of the reasons Beetle was manufactured so long as there was no money for innovation .Ferdinand Porsche's mots influential mentor was Hans Ledvinka , chief designer of Tatra
IMO, it’s not just the VW Beetle. I see a lot of the Tatra rear design copied in the 1963 Corvette Stingray, from the split rear window, the center spine, to the quad round tail lamps.
The ‘new beetle’ failed miserably. Just take a look and you understand why! This Tatra gives the same vibes to me like the very first Saab its just VERY SPECIAL
In 1999 I Talked to an old Czechoslovakia Tatra Employee who was there at the factory when Ferdinand Porcha stole Tatra plans and took them to Germany.
Except that the current Beetle is not derived in any way from the old Beetle. It is, in fact, traces its lineage back to the Auto Union/DKW/Audi K70, as do all VWs and Audis. The old Beetle was a dead end. VW purchased Auto Union (and the four circles) in order to import their modern, water cooled I4 engines and modern chassis.
The 1948 Tatra definitely influenced some design features on later Citroens. There is also some cross-influence with the iconic Tucker, especially the triple headlight arrangement and the fastback. Which influenced which though or it went vice-versa?
I can't be the only one to notice when he says It's a type 2 beetle. Type 2 is the vw bus, the bug he's talking about is the type 11. It even says it on the paper he shows the Tatra-guy "VW Type 11"...
The Type 1's all had a number STARTING with 1. There were several variations: The very first Beetle (or Kafer in German..) was the type 11. The type-1 based Ghia Coupes were type 14, the super beetles were type 1302 initially, and 1303 when they got the curved windshield. "The Thing" was also a type 1 moel. Type 2 was always the VW Bus/Transporte/Kombi. Type 3 was the squareback, Hatchback, and the larger Ghia coupes (sold only in Europe). Type 4's were the 411, 412, and the Porsche 914.
For another serious example of industrial espionage read "Stealing for Speed". This book tells the tale of how the Suzuki company stole the secrets of advanced two stroke technology from Walter Kaaden's East German MZ company.
... because an air cooled rear engine was SO UNCOMMON in that time. Also, I don't see any too obvious similarities. I mean, look at the back. Looks more like a full size messerschmidt than a beatle.
+Moritz “もりつ” Vogt VW paid Tatra a huge sum of money for patent infringement of the design of the y-shaped backbone chassis, this is on public record. That's quite an expensive similarity.
check out the Saab 92 and the early Saab models....they stayed with the same teardrop design as the Tatra - and even had a two seater sports car (sonnet) damn near identical to the Porsche
Saab Sonnett looks nothing like contemporaneous Porsches. Saab 95 and 96 were front-engine, water-cooled designs, not like Tatra. Superficial body shape similarity alone does not make them alike in other respects. The Saabs were front-heavy, with moderately freakish handling. I owned one. Tatras tended to be tail-heavy, some faster models with oversteer so severe they gained the reputation for killing German officers who drove them too fast.
@ 2:52 "This is a drawing of the Type 2 Volkswagen Beetle". Wrong on both counts. For starters it was the first VW and thus a Type 1; and secondly VW never referred to it as a "Beetle" - it was simply the "Volkswagen"., and you can call Dane Doyle Bernbach if you don't believe me.
I read that many of the safety innovations that mercedes benz first released in the automotive industry, over the years, were in fact the work of their Switzerland-based consultant Paul Jaray.
Does the Name Erwin Komenda mean anything to anybody? He is the engineer at Porsche who in 1936-7 actually designed the VW Beetle body, not Hitler, not Porsche. Did he take some cues from Tatra? Who can say. The Beetle has a rear swing-axle, trans-axle system and torsion-bar front suspension. The Beetle incorporates its body pan frame rails for the front heater channels. I think it's fair to say the Tatra was well ahead of its time in many ways. Tatra actually sued not only Porsche, but VW itself for basically copy-cat infringement, and won.
So there is lot of discussion here whether Hanz Ledwinka or Ferdinand Porsche stole ideas for V570 or Käfer respectively from each other. One true is that Tatra did conceived, designed, and deliver three aircooled models before war to its consumers. It was team of engineers led by Erich Überlacker who first proposed idea of simple, air-cooled "people's car" Two forms, one more conventional, front engined and the other, engine in the back, heavily influenced by Hungarian-born Zeppelin designer Paul Jaray. Ledwinka as chief technical director green-lighted conventional car for production. That car became national bestseller as model T 57 and its more aerodynamic revision T 57a. (guess what "a" stands for) These are still among most common veteran cars of that era in Czechia. The 570 car was meanwhile further developed. Hanz, Erich and Ferdinad knew each other and their work respectively and well. Hanz left Tatra once for Styer in his home country of Austria (and it is true that there was a friction between the two nations since colapse of A.H. empire) but returned later to se his people's car trough. However in the end they decide to introduce luxury car and then scale down up to model 97. Unfortunately those are rare, and are not shown in video. But if you look up early prototypes of 570 and Käfer and production version of Käfer and 97 you can't say they don't look lot alike. In the end Ferdi himself admitted that: "Sometimes I look over his shoulder and sometime he looked over mine" I am Czech and therefore I am biased. However, there is also true that we imprisoned Ledwinka after the war as collaborator (later communist gave him a pardon and offered him to again lead tatra, he opted to leave for his home country of austria) Erich's son got job in Steyer where he was involved in Pinzgauer development. We all know Porsche's story, so I wont write that again, but leave you with two other hopefully interesting facts: 1) When Tatra-Volkswagen/Porsche case was settled, it almost bankrupted the company. To stay afloat they have to perfect this quickly aging design and push it to as many less developed countries as they could. This layed foundation for todays Volkswagen. Second, chief constructor of T613, latest air-cooled V8 tatra engine put in serial production, fled country after soviet invasion in 1968 for Germany and there joined, yes you guessed it - Ferdinad Porsche AG.
Quite possibly we would drive cheaper clones of Skoda models made by its German subsidiary called Volksvagen, and Audis and Porsches would eternally try to catch up with Tatras:)
Hard to say. A non-Communist government might have just done what many smaller countries do nowadays and bought foreign-made luxury cars for its government officials -- most probably German.
I was a Junior in High School in 1968 when I got my first car, a 1966 Beetle. I loved it..!! I ordered floor mats and a bigger shifter handle and other things from the popular J.C. Whitney catalogue and had it looking real nice. Fond memories, indeed..!!
Bit of trivia for you: the 1963 beetle had a thermostat and used antifreeze. This will win you a beer in a bar. The intake gills on the fan housing had movable gills in front of the vertical oil cooler ... and they were opened and shut by a paraffin pellet type thermostat with a linkage arm ... and the windshield washer reservoir specified a 50/50 mix of water and Volkswagen Antifreeze. That reservoir, by the way, was pressurized by air from the spare tire with a short hose ... which guaranteed you would always have a flat spare if you ever needed it. True facts!
The washer bottle in 62-67 beetles was pressurised on its own, not by the sparewheel. But the Germans thought of that on the later VWs....there is an inline valve which stops the spare from going flat.
In 1933, at the Chicago World Fair, Lincoln showed a streamlined, rear V8 engine, Zephyr prototype. Lincoln moved the engine to the front, added 6 more cylinders and built the most successful streamline design. Tatra made the prototype. Same man designed them.
Could you post more info on that? As far as I could find out, Lincoln Zephyr were built from 1936 until 1940, with a V12 in the front. No mention of rear engines or V14. What do you mean with "same man designed them"? A connection between Tatra and Lincoln?
I think there needs to be a reassessment of the history. What is now know as Tartra was previously Nesselsdorfer Wagenbau-Fabriks-Gesellschaft A.G (1897) and before that Ignaz Schustala & Company (1850) which dated back to the Austro-Hungarian empire. At Neseldorfer they had a young progressive design team headed up by Hans Ledwinka and his son Eric, also two others by the name of Uberlacker and Jaray. This team produce the Tatra V570 prototype about 2-3 years before Hitler and Ferdinand Porsche started the Beetle folks wagen concept. The reason the Nazi's invaded Czechoslovakia in the early days was to take over Skoda Heavy Works, then the largest engineering company in Europe, and Tatra Works, it is well documented that Deutz took the air cooled engine designs and that VW took the car designs.
6:37 I don't think Czechoslovakia was communist at the time. And what do you mean by engineering sources were scarce under communism? Highly disagree. Sure most communist countries were quite rural at that time, but the image that they were technologically inferior was just an image created by western and nazi propaganda.
+ExtremeBogom Well, the USSR made the Mig 25, that was heavily copied by the west, also first in the space. Otto Wichterle (CZE) invented contact eye lenses in the late 50's. I could sure go on, but I won't, google around. EDIT: literary TONS of patents and inventions were sold to the west. Chemistry, weapons, aircraft technology and so on.
***** You can't choose which side was superior because both sides made advancements which equally paved way for many innovations. As to the states concerned, Soviet design bureaus and manufacturing plants were spread throughout different regions, and were not always concentrated only to Russia. Also at the time, there were many engineers and scientists in America, who received their education and engineering experience in communist states. Go and do some research about the advancements and list of achievements the Soviets have made particularly in the aerospace sector. To name just a "few", first satellite in space, First space suits, First man in space, Liquid fuel rocket engine designs which have since been used even in today's advanced engines, Ion thruster designs which the west adopted. Even the race to the moon would've been far more competitive for America if Khrushchev hadn't let his engineers fall back, because for a short time initially he was concentrating more on the agricultural sector. The Americans had major issues with the plumbing and turbopumps in their F1 engine, and were only able to resolve them when they adopted Soviet design elements. Also, as Phillip mentioned above, aircraft such as the Mig 25 and 29 were considered highly advanced when they flew and many Soviet defector aircraft were studied extensively by the West.
The fuse box and circuits in the harness for 1930 A.D.and earlier year was that the most experienced electrician using cloth for insulation of the wires and connector splice with slotted where placing the fuse in or out also called switch (optional). These were glass to be build as controller or Circuit board or even wood to make contact of energize the power up the Volkswagen design like the Bosch. That the Bosch were working with winding the wire into new electric field coil and steel horseshoe in place surround the coils called armature. The tool wire spinner does the wire wound that is a connection to be connect as well unconnectable contact the thin post terminals and it wiring to the set of fuses for more compact smaller size. Than so instead of bolts that screw tight the ring terminals and crimp it as an older design of wiring to the oil temp and/or oil pressure and relay, regulator. The Tatra had no experiences in showing photos or proof of writing about how the Tatra was made it into ability to drive; at least 35 MPH with its 30 up to 35 HP in during the 1920's Thank you.
Loved that brand as a kid in the 50s, their shapes inspired many manufacturers if not so many with their configuration. The Jewett Javelin shares some of the technical innovation (flat four, in the front though, IFS F IRS, the teardrop profile and aerodynamic efficiency. Their big V8 limos are to die for.
Another great piece about lost (to most of us) automotive history - thanks XCAR. Was great to get an expert on the subject involved too rather than just have the presenters reel out the information.
the tatra shown is a nineteensixties model. the kdf/beetle was designed in 1934. if you cannot even pronounce ledwinka, the rest is also likely to be inaccurate
Nice change of pace, and I love these stories. Unfortunately there was no conclusion to it, in my view there weren't enough facts for either side of the story in the video. The Tatra expert listened more than he spoke and surely a real beetle would be a lot better suited to feature in this story? Nothing against the new one, just that it really does not fit this subject in particular. There's nothing in the new beetle that has anything to do with the original series apart from the name and, vaguely, the shape. Sorry does not work for me this video.
The new and new new beetles have been a bit of a flop, and their reliability wasnt that good statistically either. Still a funky desing though. But they should give a shot at doing a rear engined rear wheel drive car again, just like renault did with the smart based twingo.
The Tatra has a licensed plate which indicated 11. The car Tatra had to have hand crank up the engine with brace and its rotating knob and they don't have tube with driveshaft inside called backbone hump of its ridgid type pan flooring. They use the roller chain that drive the slave sprocket next to the rear wheel and it would sliding the roller chain to upshift only in pause and stopping the car beforehand in changing gear. Then the it is slow start to a running in higher speed at same time the clutch system will slip more than high gear ratio does. The SU down draft the petrol into the engine of Tatra was also a copy-cat of other car maker named Mercedes-Benz that invented the aspiration of fuel and air mixing atop the intake manifold attached to the boxer engine block. The forced air to the rea engine at back is where the induct of air into the underside of rear hood lid of its engine compartment like the hood was inlet shaped of scoop at back of the roof. The Volkswagen KdF type 2 was oil-cooled engine while Tatra was air-cooled engine for all T97 and V570 or earlier model. Type 1 Volkswagen was not with its engine lid into scoop so it was with louvres at back for the drum fan to circulate the air. It's for engine heater box and oil radiator into being cooling. Type 1 KdF would become super beetle in DAF racing designer for these two scoops on both side of the Beetle or Kubelwagen Krugenwagon for civilian. These air inlets scoops at behind the side windows of Kubel aerodynamic streamlined Bug's humpback car at behind the rear seats of the Type 60 or type 2 car for cooling the KdF DAF's engine flat four. From both side of scoops = forced air toward to the middle of drum fan at the front of motor 1200cc or 890cc 39 HP.
A problem with air cooled engines in autos is heating and defrosting, the heat exchangers are rust prone, expensive, and can kill you if they leak in the wrong place. Other than that the old beetles were good cars. The new ones? You're far better off with a Toyota, Hyundai, Kia, Honda, they are far more reliable and reputable than VW is now.
The Volkswagen Beetle, along with the Karmann Ghia and "Thing" (Kubelwagen), are Type 1, not Type 2 vehicles, as stated in this presentation. Type 2 is the designated for the Microbus or Transporter.
Nazi`s copied off Tatra + Ledvinka, & the Czech company was more advanced technically than the Nazis, the Nazi`s queered Tatra`s pitch from they never recovered, Tatra were bullied out of business!
Original concept probably by innovative forward-thinking engineer Paul Jaray (1889 - 1974 ). He did aerodynamic consultancy work for Tatra, Chrysler, Mercedes-Benz, Maybach, Apollo, Dixi, Audi, Adler, Jawa, Ford, Steyr and others. Also designed seaplanes and airships that the Zeppelin was based on. Plus many other projects across many industries. Huge number of unique patents.
Tatra is still producing semi-trucks. Well, the passenger cars are a history 😞 Ferdinand Porsche is born in Czech Republic, and the Porsche company started in Austria, so the VW history started east from Germany. 30 years ago VW moved back and saved Skoda, that is nice from Volkswagen
I owned a 1970 standard VW beetle yrs ago that I bought used with very low mileage. I drove it to about 170,000 trouble free miles with minimal maintenance and sold it to a college girl who was in an accident and it was wrecked at about 200,000 miles. They were a reliable quality built and simple to maintain car. About the only real drawback they had was the heater, or rather the lack of one lol. As long as you kept the valves adjusted and did regular oil changes and kept a fan belt on it they were very reliable.
Australia was OFFERED the VW company after WW2 as reparations and to kick start its Auto Industry they declined the offer. Our last 2 manufacturers GM Holden and Ford Australia are closing its all imports. Both produced excellent cars. Superior quality to the US that has taken a lot of the engineers.
The original beetle and the Tatras were brilliant bits of engineering-led design. The modern beetle is a marketing abortion, even if it is better in almost every way, it has no soul.
Why is he driving a Golf in beetle clothing. I remember reading that Tratras killed many German officers, who coveted them, but they were tail happy. the sting was in the tail
If you base yourself on the "curved shape" ... well all cars had it... from approx. 1935 to 1950s, some models more so, some less but, it was just the fashion. Perhaps the 1935 Chrysler Airflow was the first that introduced it. And you place the engine in the rear if you want to spare differential etc.parts, same reason is behind choosing air cooled engine. Is easier to make, for less skilled workers and cheaper again. So is not the best innovative company, minding to that using same style engines on all Tatra trucks to nowadays, which all have problems with cooling and hence have more limited usage.
And what auto manufacturer or any other technological enterprise isn't based on 'looking over the shoulder' of those innovators who came before them? We are all 'standing on the shoulders of giants', where science is involved.
Great story, I knew about Tatra but never seen the obvious link between the brands. Not much of a VW fan but been to France camping in T2 Westfalia and T3.
Tatra is still in business you know. I think they should come out with a rear engine sports car, like the 911. Porsche could not accuse Tatra of copying them, because they copied Tatra in the first place! A Tatra sports car wouldn't be *better* than a 911 - not right away (the 911 has 50 years of refinement) but it would be an alternative. Something different. A hipster's 911!
+raffriff42 IT might be more like a Chevy Corvair, an affordable rear engine sport coupe with good to excellent all around performance for the price point.
Yeah, would have been nice to hear the sound of the engine instead of that crap synthesized poop. Why do people go to the trouble of making a video only to screw it up with crap music?
Well, something from New era. Do you know why VW went for Skoda like thirsty dog??? Skoda in 1961 introduced in Paris model 1000MB with engine alloy monoblock. That was shock for motor world that time. VW by Skoda got complete alloy research made by Skoda for 30years!!!..... If you see what hapenned with technology in Audi, VW, Seat after 1990 that is the result secret die- casting aluminium started by Skoda Alloy department. VW knew well before what jewellery Skoda has.
I cringe every time someone pronounces Maybach as MAY-back, and not how it's supposed to be said, MY-bauk. At least that's what iv'e always been taught.
+OfficialEpic222 The MY part is correct, but the "ch" in the "bach" is the same sound as the "ch" in Scottish "loch" -- not "lauk." P.S. Do you also cringe at Porsch (without the "uh") or Lancia (Lansia instead of "Lanshia)?
+OfficialEpic222 Well, perhaps Lanshia wasn't the best rendering. "ci" in Italian is a "ch"as in "chocolate." But that's for the super purist. I confess I grew up with Lansia as well. Let's not even start on Alfa Romeo (or even Volkswagon). Agree with you on Maybach -- does anyone say Johann Sebastian Back?
Air cooled engine Boxe flat four type was invented by Ferdinand Porsche for the Beetle, with Hitler's request , and war beetle well known during Rommel's Africa campaigns. BMW developped the Flat Twin engine for his motocyle used by Wermacht. The V8 engine was used only for Tatra. When wars finished, licencing, and inventor's brevets were given to Citroën, by war's dammaged. 2CV prototypes used the BMW Flat twin 2 cylinders. Commercial air cooled Flat Twin engines in Citroën were successful after war on 2CV and equivalents( Mehari, Dyane, Ami 6, Ami 8 ), for simply maintenance, by people. Except the VISA and LNA, with THOMSON CSF electronic ignition, there were a lot of failures ! For Flat Four boxer engine, the third model using this system was the GS, and GSA. First generation boxer had 1015 cm 3 and both failure. 1220 cm 3, was better, and 1300 cm was successful. Pistons works horizontally, and hand crancking is more easy than normal engine with vertical pistons working.
German manufacturers lost their car designs as spoils of war , and still continued to succeed, england got the designs and failed, because they didn't improve what they were making, improve your product or your gone that is with everything
+Norman Teck --Interesting comment as I have just finished reading Ganz's biography by Paul Schilperoord this week! A fascinating story and Ganz should be given much more credit than Tatra for the development of the Beetle. He was editor of "Motor-Kritik" and not only called for a "Volkswagen" car for the masses but set out the parameters: backbone chassis, rear-mounted engine, swing axle suspension. He worked as a consultant for Mercedes-Benz (check out the 130/140/170h cars that are surprisingly VW-like), BMW (AM 1, again with a backbone chassis and swing axles) but his ideas came most closely together in the Standard Superior, another German car (in spite of the name). Tatra managed to get ahold of Ganz's patents through devious means described in the book but Ganz had a good relationship with Hans Ledwinka. Dr. Porsche, an independent engineer, was stuck with designing the Beetle since no German manufacturer wanted to touch it and he clearly borrowed heavily from Ganz's widely-publicized ideas. The other person I would like to know more about is Siegfried Marcus, another Austrian Jew, who ran a handcart with a gasoline-powered internal combustion engine in 1870! Needless to say, the Nazis expunged his memory as thoroughly as they did Ganz's name so we only know about Daimler and Benz.
@@Sprocketboy1956 , thank you for your thoughtful reply. I had never heard of Siegfried Marcus. The Nazis were thorough and had worldwide help (www.ibmandtheholocaust.com, Edward VIII).
why always forcing others to suffer under your musical-"taste" ? Learn to pronounce Volkswagen ("Folkswage", not Wolkswagen, "Por-Sche", not Porsch, Maybach is "Mybach"..... and so on).....Espionage? Look at the cars of today , no difference between one or the other , espionage ? No, lack of fantasy , lack of courage to try something out middle of the road, lack of taste of the clients !
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It would have been great to have a ''real'' Beetle, from the same era as the Tatra, parked next to it instead of the modern water-cooled unit shown here. I think it would have made the point even more obvious.
Exactly. How could they find a Tatra but not round up a real Beetle for the photo shoot?
Lol,right?
Right on! Up to and including finding a split-window bug, ie pre-'54.
Bylo by skvělé mít vedle sebe zaparkovaného „opravdového“ brouka ze stejné doby jako Tatra, místo moderního vodou chlazeného celku, který je zde znázorněn. Myslím, že by to bylo ještě jasnější.
Me as a Mexican who had the opportunity to have seen both the air cooled Beetle and the new "Beetle" being sold brand new at VW dealerships, I will not EVER see the new "beetle" (yes in quote marks) as the successor of the air cooled one. I will always see it as a Jetta with a wannabe body of a Beetle. It's got nothing to do with the air cooled one except for the body shape.
Thank God I still own my trusty air cooled REAL Beetle.
You forgot to mention how the quality of the newer VW's is a part of history.
True. They should be ashamed that they recreated such a legendary car so poorly. They should have teamed up with porsche to design a new beetle with porsche's water cooled boxer 4 cylinder in the back instead of creating a new monocoque chassis and bolt on vw golf parts...
Actually, the "New Beetle" was a Golf GTI with a Beetle body.
@@zhbvenkhoReload The first new VW watercooled was great. The latest longer bodied is ugly!!!
@@RikardoKermat Can't stand all those bubble-tops. And then a Beetle with a Porsche engine? How would this attest to Beetle fitting in the people's car category? Beetle should be all about economy, not performance, otherwise it's no longer a Beetle.
This is what I have been saying for a while that the VW Beetle wasn't an absolute original design of Prof Porsche
'Not a fashionable bloke' he says with done up hair and manicured goatee.
+Ahmed Hakeem Thats me. I lost the rubbish facial hair immediately after the shoot!
Ahmed Hakeem so taking care of yourselves is fashionable? He seems like a plain bloke to me
There is no doubt that the Type 1 bore a striking resemblance to the earlier Tatra. Tatra launched a lawsuit, but this was stopped when Germany invaded Czechoslovakia. At the same time, Tatra was forced to stop producing the T97. The matter was re-opened after World War II and in 1965 Volkswagen paid Ringhoffer-Tatra 1,000,000 Deutsche Marks in an out of court settlement.
The tragedy of Tatra was that it was a great automaker in a then-weak country. And that country would soon be betrayed by France and Great Britain.
One thing that was not mentioned in this film was, that Tatra is the only company that ever successfully sued Porsche.
+Philip Cooper It's a myth, Ferdinand Porsche designed a car for Mercedes Benz that had a air cooled engine in the back that was shown in the 30's as a concept car but was not manufactured due to the depression. In fact the Tata was so similar looking to the Benz that it was accused of plagiarism when they first started showing it. In other words Porsche had prior art and the Beetle is just a continuation of the Benz and has no connection with the Tata.
Martin Rychtera He originally designed the car for the Soviet Union in 1931 but that design was never shown and possibly never built, Benz version 1932-3 shown around the world as "the car for the future" and is what the Tatra copies, Volkswagen Beetle design 1934-5, Tatra introduced in 1936 I know what the Czech schoolbooks say, have been there, but the timeline does not add up. And is Ferdinand Porsche not Czech enough for you lot?
... Porsche paid milion Mark for stolen patent to Tatra ... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Beetle ... biggest beau was Mr. Ledwinka ;)
Please do not quote wikipedia on this
:D omg ...why? do you think its full of conspiracy? ... most izareli swear it
What made the beetle success was the 'semi' tubular backbone chassis and light-weight Magnesium engine block, but:
1, Mr Porsche designed only one car with such backbone chassis, that was the Type-1 VW-Beetle. The other related vehicle with similar design was the Type 2 VW transporter. Notice that even Porsche 356 shares many commons with the original beetle, but the 356 was a uni-body design.
2, VW Beetle was the only 'successful' pre-WW2 rear engine car. Another unsuccessful pre-WW2 attempt of rear engine design were the Mercedes-Benz 130 and 170H, they also had the tubular backbone chassis, but they did not seem to have the Magnesium engine block.
Now take a look the pre-WW2 Tatra (T77 T87 & T97), they were all Magnesium air-cooled engine and backbone chassis design, and actually Tatra was famous for these 2 applications all the time.
Another concept that Porsche dead trying but never truly success was putting DOHC onto an air-cooled engine. In history only few racing engines (917 & 908) were ture air-cooled DOHC. 2 other 'mass produced' DOHC Porsche air-cooled engines was 1) 547 '4 cam' engine but it was gear-driven cam and only had 2 valves per cylinder; 2) Porsche 959 engine with 2 cams and 4 valves per cylinder, it was cheating because it has a water-cooled head. Meanwhile most of the Tatra air-cooled V8 engines built after WW2 were DOHC!
...and don't forget the MB 150 Sport Saloon, which to me looks more like a Beetle than any Tatra ever !
Similarities: 4 wheels, 2 front lights, one steering wheel. For the rest there are more cars looking like the original 30s beetle or the Tatra, even from the 1930s. Even despite the fact a german court awarded Skoda money after the war...
I HATE THE NEW VW BEETLES I love the old ones
Nice Tatra clone but like everything German made it isn't designed to last, even ruining hillman by taking the namesake couldn't save vw
@@beemail6983 tHE NEW "BEETLE'S" suck , the old ones are classics
don't kid yourselves. Han Ludwinka schooled Porsche in Czechlosovokia in the 1920's...Porsche, a good student was a patent thief and the international courts agreed with that awarding a (then) huge settlement to Motokov the parent co. of Tatra.
There are plans to build a brand new Tatraplan in the future being considered. The company still makes world class trucks.
While I'd love to see a new Tatra sedan, I'd be very surprised if an economic case can be made for it. Tatra would face the same development costs (often a billion Euros or more for a new engine design) as any other manufacturer, but the brand cachet that lets e.g. Porsche charge premium prices for its vehicles is largely not there (any longer). Plus, at this point, most manufacturers' cars are contributing little to their profitability, which comes largely from SUVs. If it were relying only on its cars rather than the Cayenne and Macan, Porsche would have gone under years ago. Perhaps Tatra could leverage its truck expertise into selling a credible Land Rover or G-Wagen competitor, but I doubt we'll ever see a genuine Tatra passenger car again.
@@mebsrea If a new Tatra comes, it will be all electric, I think.
I am czechoslovakien living in USA now , the Czech used to build everything from needles to locomotives ,it could be better than Swiss, but now it is just Euro union warehouse. From rain -under gutter.
*jeff hammers:* _"Porsche, a good student was a patent thief…"_
- You can't be stolen of what you don't own. Patents aren't property but State-granted monopolies. If Tatra failed to make a dent in the car industry it was because they were a useless piece of shit incapable of building affordable and reliable cars at a large scale. In contrast, Volkswagen knew how to mass produce cheap and dependable cars and make a profit out of it. The market rewards those who bring good ideas to fruition, the only thing that matters. Even Thomas Alva Edison, one of the people with largest number of granted patents, admitted it: the only invention that matters is the one that will make a profit.
Lol, the designers of the car were Sudeten Germans and were expelled by the Czechs and communists in the post-war ethnic cleansing.
You failed to mention that none of the German people got their cars (or lives they were promised) as the factory and economy was ruined after the war. The British saw value in saving the factory, but they handed it back over to the Germans later.
Not true. Volkswagen honored every payment that was made towards a car during the war.
There was a Tatra four air cooled cilynders,V570 from which Volkswagen was copied. After war, Volkswagen had to pay for plagiarism
A sloped rear will reduce drag significantly
Tatra is officially the third oldest car manufacturer after Benz and Peugeot, firs pioneered the aerodynamic design in wind tunnel back in 30's when Ford was still making model T .WV / Porsche has lost the court case with Tatra and was ordered to pay decades of compensation.That is one of the reasons Beetle was manufactured so long as there was no money for innovation .Ferdinand Porsche's mots influential mentor was Hans Ledvinka , chief designer of Tatra
IMO, it’s not just the VW Beetle. I see a lot of the Tatra rear design copied in the 1963 Corvette Stingray, from the split rear window, the center spine, to the quad round tail lamps.
The ‘new beetle’ failed miserably.
Just take a look and you understand why!
This Tatra gives the same vibes to me like the very first Saab its just VERY SPECIAL
In 1999 I Talked to an old Czechoslovakia Tatra Employee who was there at the factory when Ferdinand Porcha stole Tatra plans and took them to Germany.
sure
Ledwinka means "little kidney". Greetings from Czech Republic.
I would prefer Little Caprice ;)
Except that the current Beetle is not derived in any way from the old Beetle. It is, in fact, traces its lineage back to the Auto Union/DKW/Audi K70, as do all VWs and Audis. The old Beetle was a dead end. VW purchased Auto Union (and the four circles) in order to import their modern, water cooled I4 engines and modern chassis.
The 1948 Tatra definitely influenced some design features on later Citroens. There is also some cross-influence with the iconic Tucker, especially the triple headlight arrangement and the fastback. Which influenced which though or it went vice-versa?
I can't be the only one to notice when he says It's a type 2 beetle. Type 2 is the vw bus, the bug he's talking about is the type 11. It even says it on the paper he shows the Tatra-guy "VW Type 11"...
Same here - "Type 2"? Never. The original was always known (even by VW) as the Type 1, it was never a "Beetle".
Basically the presenter hasn't a clue what he's talking about
Type 2 lol
He read the 11 as the Roman numeral 2...that's why he said 2,duh...
The Type 1's all had a number STARTING with 1. There were several variations: The very first Beetle (or Kafer in German..) was the type 11. The type-1 based Ghia Coupes were type 14, the super beetles were type 1302 initially, and 1303 when they got the curved windshield. "The Thing" was also a type 1 moel.
Type 2 was always the VW Bus/Transporte/Kombi.
Type 3 was the squareback, Hatchback, and the larger Ghia coupes (sold only in Europe).
Type 4's were the 411, 412, and the Porsche 914.
Ferdinand Porche was actually born in former Bohemia now Czech republic Also if you look at Tatra cars Bugatti copied that rear design from us.
For another serious example of industrial espionage read "Stealing for Speed". This book tells the tale of how the Suzuki company stole the secrets of advanced two stroke technology from Walter Kaaden's East German MZ company.
... because an air cooled rear engine was SO UNCOMMON in that time.
Also, I don't see any too obvious similarities. I mean, look at the back. Looks more like a full size messerschmidt than a beatle.
+Moritz “もりつ” Vogt VW paid Tatra a huge sum of money for patent infringement of the design of the y-shaped backbone chassis, this is on public record. That's quite an expensive similarity.
@@dickvonduisberg2356 Where is that public record?
A beautiful car; wonderful practical design. - Thanks for the show, old mechanic (91) , Fritz
check out the Saab 92 and the early Saab models....they stayed with the same teardrop design as the Tatra - and even had a two seater sports car (sonnet) damn near identical to the Porsche
Saab Sonnett looks nothing like contemporaneous Porsches. Saab 95 and 96 were front-engine, water-cooled designs, not like Tatra. Superficial body shape similarity alone does not make them alike in other respects. The Saabs were front-heavy, with moderately freakish handling. I owned one. Tatras tended to be tail-heavy, some faster models with oversteer so severe they gained the reputation for killing German officers who drove them too fast.
Thanks for dubbing music over the sound of the engine.
It's a beetle, it's the same engine as the golf your not missing anything.
+Daniel Fox haha
+Daniel Fox you know nothing
Yep, that was stupid.
@ 2:52 "This is a drawing of the Type 2 Volkswagen Beetle".
Wrong on both counts. For starters it was the first VW and thus a Type 1; and secondly VW never referred to it as a "Beetle" - it was simply the "Volkswagen"., and you can call Dane Doyle Bernbach if you don't believe me.
I read that many of the safety innovations that mercedes benz first released in the automotive industry, over the years, were in fact the work of their Switzerland-based consultant Paul Jaray.
Does the Name Erwin Komenda mean anything to anybody? He is the engineer at Porsche who in 1936-7 actually designed the VW Beetle body, not Hitler, not Porsche. Did he take some cues from Tatra? Who can say. The Beetle has a rear swing-axle, trans-axle system and torsion-bar front suspension. The Beetle incorporates its body pan frame rails for the front heater channels. I think it's fair to say the Tatra was well ahead of its time in many ways. Tatra actually sued not only Porsche, but VW itself for basically copy-cat infringement, and won.
So there is lot of discussion here whether Hanz Ledwinka or Ferdinand Porsche stole ideas for V570 or Käfer respectively from each other. One true is that Tatra did conceived, designed, and deliver three aircooled models before war to its consumers. It was team of engineers led by Erich Überlacker who first proposed idea of simple, air-cooled "people's car" Two forms, one more conventional, front engined and the other, engine in the back, heavily influenced by Hungarian-born Zeppelin designer Paul Jaray. Ledwinka as chief technical director green-lighted conventional car for production. That car became national bestseller as model T 57 and its more aerodynamic revision T 57a. (guess what "a" stands for) These are still among most common veteran cars of that era in Czechia. The 570 car was meanwhile further developed. Hanz, Erich and Ferdinad knew each other and their work respectively and well. Hanz left Tatra once for Styer in his home country of Austria (and it is true that there was a friction between the two nations since colapse of A.H. empire) but returned later to se his people's car trough. However in the end they decide to introduce luxury car and then scale down up to model 97. Unfortunately those are rare, and are not shown in video. But if you look up early prototypes of 570 and Käfer and production version of Käfer and 97 you can't say they don't look lot alike. In the end Ferdi himself admitted that: "Sometimes I look over his shoulder and sometime he looked over mine" I am Czech and therefore I am biased. However, there is also true that we imprisoned Ledwinka after the war as collaborator (later communist gave him a pardon and offered him to again lead tatra, he opted to leave for his home country of austria) Erich's son got job in Steyer where he was involved in Pinzgauer development. We all know Porsche's story, so I wont write that again, but leave you with two other hopefully interesting facts: 1) When Tatra-Volkswagen/Porsche case was settled, it almost bankrupted the company. To stay afloat they have to perfect this quickly aging design and push it to as many less developed countries as they could. This layed foundation for todays Volkswagen. Second, chief constructor of T613, latest air-cooled V8 tatra engine put in serial production, fled country after soviet invasion in 1968 for Germany and there joined, yes you guessed it - Ferdinad Porsche AG.
It's interesting to watch history of Skoda and Tatra and thinking of how it would turned out if Czechoslovakia weren't under communist rule :/
At the end, the VW Group surely buyed both to built some Jetta (Skoda) and others Phaeton (Tatra) with good workers with limited wage.
Quite possibly we would drive cheaper clones of Skoda models made by its German subsidiary called Volksvagen, and Audis and Porsches would eternally try to catch up with Tatras:)
You can think of the rear-engined Porsches as 2 door sports versions of Tatra's 4 door saloon cars.
Hard to say. A non-Communist government might have just done what many smaller countries do nowadays and bought foreign-made luxury cars for its government officials -- most probably German.
Czechoslovakia, as small as it was, was the 6th (!) economy in the world. So it might well be the greatest victim of the Soviet occupation.
I was a Junior in High School in 1968 when I got my first car, a 1966 Beetle. I loved it..!! I ordered floor mats and a bigger shifter handle and other things from the popular J.C. Whitney catalogue and had it looking real nice. Fond memories, indeed..!!
Bit of trivia for you: the 1963 beetle had a thermostat and used antifreeze. This will win you a beer in a bar. The intake gills on the fan housing had movable gills in front of the vertical oil cooler ... and they were opened and shut by a paraffin pellet type thermostat with a linkage arm ... and the windshield washer reservoir specified a 50/50 mix of water and Volkswagen Antifreeze. That reservoir, by the way, was pressurized by air from the spare tire with a short hose ... which guaranteed you would always have a flat spare if you ever needed it. True facts!
The washer bottle in 62-67 beetles was pressurised on its own, not by the sparewheel. But the Germans thought of that on the later VWs....there is an inline valve which stops the spare from going flat.
In 1933, at the Chicago World Fair, Lincoln showed a streamlined, rear V8 engine, Zephyr prototype. Lincoln moved the engine to the front, added 6 more cylinders and built the most successful streamline design. Tatra made the prototype. Same man designed them.
Could you post more info on that? As far as I could find out, Lincoln Zephyr were built from 1936 until 1940, with a V12 in the front. No mention of rear engines or V14. What do you mean with "same man designed them"? A connection between Tatra and Lincoln?
I think there needs to be a reassessment of the history. What is now know as Tartra was previously Nesselsdorfer Wagenbau-Fabriks-Gesellschaft A.G (1897) and before that Ignaz Schustala & Company (1850) which dated back to the Austro-Hungarian empire. At Neseldorfer they had a young progressive design team headed up by Hans Ledwinka and his son Eric, also two others by the name of Uberlacker and Jaray. This team produce the Tatra V570 prototype about 2-3 years before Hitler and Ferdinand Porsche started the Beetle folks wagen concept. The reason the Nazi's invaded Czechoslovakia in the early days was to take over Skoda Heavy Works, then the largest engineering company in Europe, and Tatra Works, it is well documented that Deutz took the air cooled engine designs and that VW took the car designs.
So that's where the Saab 99 came from!
I think Andre Citroen was influenced by the Tatra when designing the ID/DS Citroens.
Really nothing to do with the current Beetle so would be better to not include it.
6:37 I don't think Czechoslovakia was communist at the time. And what do you mean by engineering sources were scarce under communism? Highly disagree.
Sure most communist countries were quite rural at that time, but the image that they were technologically inferior was just an image created by western and nazi propaganda.
+Rasta Fari It was - Czechoslovakia came under Communist rule in 1948, the year the T600 was put into mass production.
+Tedrick Leong I thought he was referring to the T97 which they talked about. Slight misinterpretation on my part.
+Rasta Fari
What "Communist" country had superior technology to the "West" then?
+ExtremeBogom Well, the USSR made the Mig 25, that was heavily copied by the west, also first in the space. Otto Wichterle (CZE) invented contact eye lenses in the late 50's. I could sure go on, but I won't, google around.
EDIT: literary TONS of patents and inventions were sold to the west. Chemistry, weapons, aircraft technology and so on.
***** You can't choose which side was superior because both sides made advancements which equally paved way for many innovations. As to the states concerned, Soviet design bureaus and manufacturing plants were spread throughout different regions, and were not always concentrated only to Russia. Also at the time, there were many engineers and scientists in America, who received their education and engineering experience in communist states.
Go and do some research about the advancements and list of achievements the Soviets have made particularly in the aerospace sector. To name just a "few", first satellite in space, First space suits, First man in space, Liquid fuel rocket engine designs which have since been used even in today's advanced engines, Ion thruster designs which the west adopted. Even the race to the moon would've been far more competitive for America if Khrushchev hadn't let his engineers fall back, because for a short time initially he was concentrating more on the agricultural sector. The Americans had major issues with the plumbing and turbopumps in their F1 engine, and were only able to resolve them when they adopted Soviet design elements. Also, as Phillip mentioned above, aircraft such as the Mig 25 and 29 were considered highly advanced when they flew and many Soviet defector aircraft were studied extensively by the West.
The fuse box and circuits in the harness for 1930 A.D.and earlier year was that the most experienced electrician using cloth for insulation of the wires and connector splice with slotted where placing the fuse in or out also called switch (optional). These were glass to be build as controller or Circuit board or even wood to make contact of energize the power up the Volkswagen design like the Bosch. That the Bosch were working with winding the wire into new electric field coil and steel horseshoe in place surround the coils called armature.
The tool wire spinner does the wire wound that is a connection to be connect as well unconnectable contact the thin post terminals and it wiring to the set of fuses for more compact smaller size. Than so instead of bolts that screw tight the ring terminals and crimp it as an older design of wiring to the oil temp and/or oil pressure and relay, regulator.
The Tatra had no experiences in showing photos or proof of writing about how the Tatra was made it into ability to drive; at least 35 MPH with its 30 up to 35 HP in during the 1920's Thank you.
Its shape also predated the Citroen DS from 1955
My niece had one of those NEW Beetles , that POS was in the garage every other week.
Loved that brand as a kid in the 50s, their shapes inspired many manufacturers if not so many with their configuration. The Jewett Javelin shares some of the technical innovation (flat four, in the front though, IFS F IRS, the teardrop profile and aerodynamic efficiency. Their big V8 limos are to die for.
yes,Hans Ledwinka was teacher of Ferdinand Porsche
in 1965 VW gave Tatra a out of court a million DM
What a beautiful thing that car is, my heart is pounding.
The TATRA Looks Something Like A Citroen DS..
Or Citroen looks like Tatra
And now Bugatti is stealing Czech design !!
What we got here - a fucking comedian? :)
@@PrimoStracciatella No, fucking thuth!!
right:-)
It does look like one from the exterior...
Lol, the designers of the car were Sudeten Germans and were expelled by the Czechs and communists in the post-war ethnic cleansing.
Another great piece about lost (to most of us) automotive history - thanks XCAR. Was great to get an expert on the subject involved too rather than just have the presenters reel out the information.
the tatra shown is a nineteensixties model. the kdf/beetle was designed in 1934. if you cannot even pronounce ledwinka, the rest is also likely to be inaccurate
Nice change of pace, and I love these stories. Unfortunately there was no conclusion to it, in my view there weren't enough facts for either side of the story in the video. The Tatra expert listened more than he spoke and surely a real beetle would be a lot better suited to feature in this story? Nothing against the new one, just that it really does not fit this subject in particular. There's nothing in the new beetle that has anything to do with the original series apart from the name and, vaguely, the shape. Sorry does not work for me this video.
VW paid Tatra in 1965 for using their V570 prototype to design the Type 1 (Beetle).
Agree that the video is poorly researched and badly executed.
Pedro Venda And.
The new and new new beetles have been a bit of a flop, and their reliability wasnt that good statistically either. Still a funky desing though. But they should give a shot at doing a rear engined rear wheel drive car again, just like renault did with the smart based twingo.
Tatra is one of the oldest car pioneers in the world!
Yet Studebaker traced its lineage to the 1850s when it built wagons and carriages. It was America's oldest vehicle manufacturer.
What was the point of parking a modern beetle (re-skinned golf) alongside the Tatra?
The Tatra has a licensed plate which indicated 11. The car Tatra had to have hand crank up the engine with brace and its rotating knob and they don't have tube with driveshaft inside called backbone hump of its ridgid type pan flooring. They use the roller chain that drive the slave sprocket next to the rear wheel and it would sliding the roller chain to upshift only in pause and stopping the car beforehand in changing gear. Then the it is slow start to a running in higher speed at same time the clutch system will slip more than high gear ratio does.
The SU down draft the petrol into the engine of Tatra was also a copy-cat of other car maker named Mercedes-Benz that invented the aspiration of fuel and air mixing atop the intake manifold attached to the boxer engine block.
The forced air to the rea engine at back is where the induct of air into the underside of rear hood lid of its engine compartment like the hood was inlet shaped of scoop at back of the roof.
The Volkswagen KdF type 2 was oil-cooled engine while Tatra was air-cooled engine for all T97 and V570 or earlier model. Type 1 Volkswagen was not with its engine lid into scoop so it was with louvres at back for the drum fan to circulate the air. It's for engine heater box and oil radiator into being cooling. Type 1 KdF would become super beetle in DAF racing designer for these two scoops on both side of the Beetle or Kubelwagen Krugenwagon for civilian. These air inlets scoops at behind the side windows of Kubel aerodynamic streamlined Bug's humpback car at behind the rear seats of the Type 60 or type 2 car for cooling the KdF DAF's engine flat four. From both side of scoops = forced air toward to the middle of drum fan at the front of motor 1200cc or 890cc 39 HP.
also, tatra does still make cars. Well, more workhorses for buildsides than street models.
Title: Tatra
Video: Origin of the Bettle
A problem with air cooled engines in autos is heating and defrosting, the heat exchangers are rust prone, expensive, and can kill you if they leak in the wrong place. Other than that the old beetles were good cars. The new ones? You're far better off with a Toyota, Hyundai, Kia, Honda, they are far more reliable and reputable than VW is now.
Now, yes.
Hyundai/Kia going up against VW is a slap in the face. Those jagoffs at VW group ought to be ashamed.
I prefer Tatra.
The Volkswagen Beetle, along with the Karmann Ghia and "Thing" (Kubelwagen), are Type 1, not Type 2 vehicles, as stated in this presentation. Type 2 is the designated for the Microbus or Transporter.
Whats with putting background music in the foreground? It'd be nice to not have to squint to listen to the reviewer.
+jimmybell Squinting so you can hear better? Seems legit.
+Viru A Through your ear balls, duh.
+Viru A a technique for getting subscribers attention ?
I wonder if tucker got some ideals from this car also
Thanks! I loved this mini history lesson and introduction to a very rare car.
Nazi`s copied off Tatra + Ledvinka, & the Czech company was more advanced technically than the Nazis, the Nazi`s queered Tatra`s pitch from they never recovered, Tatra were bullied out of business!
Original concept probably by innovative forward-thinking engineer Paul Jaray (1889 - 1974 ). He did aerodynamic consultancy work for Tatra, Chrysler, Mercedes-Benz, Maybach, Apollo, Dixi, Audi, Adler, Jawa, Ford, Steyr and others. Also designed seaplanes and airships that the Zeppelin was based on. Plus many other projects across many industries. Huge number of unique patents.
Tatra is still producing semi-trucks. Well, the passenger cars are a history 😞
Ferdinand Porsche is born in Czech Republic, and the Porsche company started in Austria, so the VW history started east from Germany.
30 years ago VW moved back and saved Skoda, that is nice from Volkswagen
one good thing about a beetle, you can say you have the same headlights as a 911 :P
+VLCC the diablo has a Nissan's headlights!
I owned a 1970 standard VW beetle yrs ago that I bought used with very low mileage. I drove it to about 170,000 trouble free miles with minimal maintenance and sold it to a college girl who was in an accident and it was wrecked at about 200,000 miles. They were a reliable quality built and simple to maintain car. About the only real drawback they had was the heater, or rather the lack of one lol. As long as you kept the valves adjusted and did regular oil changes and kept a fan belt on it they were very reliable.
Australia was OFFERED the VW company after WW2 as reparations and to kick start its Auto Industry they declined the offer. Our last 2 manufacturers GM Holden and Ford Australia are closing its all imports. Both produced excellent cars. Superior quality to the US that has taken a lot of the engineers.
The Beetle was simple roomy enough and nippy to drive
Not a clue why this has any dislikes; this was a great little piece. Thanks XCAR!
+Godly Object , O please reveal the "great little piece".
I wish this was longer, with a ride IN THE TATRA, but still… nice to see.
Great vid. Love this type of motoring history
Ha ha, what caught my eye is a water cooled front engine FWD retro styled VW compared to Tatra rear engine air cooled design.
Tatra first produced the 97 in 1936. Mercedes first produced the 150 Sport Saloon in 1933. Tell me which one looks more like a Beetle.
Hahaha. 7:29 the cop didn't even trying to turn
I learned something today! Very interesting video!
The original beetle and the Tatras were brilliant bits of engineering-led design. The modern beetle is a marketing abortion, even if it is better in almost every way, it has no soul.
Lnoks like an early saab
Why is he driving a Golf in beetle clothing. I remember reading that Tratras killed many German officers, who coveted them, but they were tail happy. the sting was in the tail
If you base yourself on the "curved shape" ... well all cars had it... from approx. 1935 to 1950s, some models more so, some less but, it was just the fashion. Perhaps the 1935 Chrysler Airflow was the first that introduced it. And you place the engine in the rear if you want to spare differential etc.parts, same reason is behind choosing air cooled engine. Is easier to make, for less skilled workers and cheaper again. So is not the best innovative company, minding to that using same style engines on all Tatra trucks to nowadays, which all have problems with cooling and hence have more limited usage.
Porsche had already been dabbling with the peoples car for a while. The engines earliest prototype was from1912
And what auto manufacturer or any other technological enterprise isn't based on 'looking over the shoulder' of those innovators who came before them? We are all 'standing on the shoulders of giants', where science is involved.
It had to be uniquie experience driving a car before VW took over.
Great story,
I knew about Tatra but never seen the obvious link between the brands.
Not much of a VW fan but been to France camping in T2 Westfalia and T3.
Tatra is still in business you know. I think they should come out with a rear engine sports car, like the 911. Porsche could not accuse Tatra of copying them, because they copied Tatra in the first place! A Tatra sports car wouldn't be *better* than a 911 - not right away (the 911 has 50 years of refinement) but it would be an alternative. Something different. A hipster's 911!
+raffriff42 IT might be more like a Chevy Corvair, an affordable rear engine sport coupe with good to excellent all around performance for the price point.
You should use a 60’s or 70’s Beetle for comparison, not a 2015 model.
The modern beetle has nothing to do with the aircooled type1.
Might b a copy but to get it right is the challenge.
Too much unnecessary music is in video! Almost boring first 20 seconds .Nearly scipped it.
Yeah, would have been nice to hear the sound of the engine instead of that crap synthesized poop. Why do people go to the trouble of making a video only to screw it up with crap music?
Didn't Rudolph want to be a reindeer anymore (3:16)?
Well, something from New era. Do you know why VW went for Skoda like thirsty dog??? Skoda in 1961 introduced in Paris model 1000MB with engine alloy monoblock. That was shock for motor world that time. VW by Skoda got complete alloy research made by Skoda for 30years!!!..... If you see what hapenned with technology in Audi, VW, Seat after 1990 that is the result secret die- casting aluminium started by Skoda Alloy department. VW knew well before what jewellery Skoda has.
I cringe every time someone pronounces Maybach as MAY-back, and not how it's supposed to be said, MY-bauk. At least that's what iv'e always been taught.
+OfficialEpic222 The MY part is correct, but the "ch" in the "bach" is the same sound as the "ch" in Scottish "loch" -- not "lauk."
P.S. Do you also cringe at Porsch (without the "uh") or Lancia (Lansia instead of "Lanshia)?
Ian Findlay The Porsche part, yes i do cringe. But, iv'e always called Lancia "Lansia", never have i heard it be pronounced Lanshia.
+OfficialEpic222 Well, perhaps Lanshia wasn't the best rendering. "ci" in Italian is a "ch"as in "chocolate." But that's for the super purist. I confess I grew up with Lansia as well. Let's not even start on Alfa Romeo (or even Volkswagon).
Agree with you on Maybach -- does anyone say Johann Sebastian Back?
@@ianfindlay865 Most English speakers do say "Back" (like "buck") - because they simply can't pronounce the German "ch" right.
Love the history. I couldn't help but notice the similarity between some of the early Tetras and the Mercedes 130H (?) from what appear the same era.
Air cooled engine Boxe flat four type was invented by Ferdinand Porsche for the Beetle, with Hitler's request , and war beetle well known during Rommel's Africa campaigns.
BMW developped the Flat Twin engine for his motocyle used by Wermacht.
The V8 engine was used only for Tatra.
When wars finished, licencing, and inventor's brevets were given to Citroën, by war's dammaged.
2CV prototypes used the BMW Flat twin 2 cylinders.
Commercial air cooled Flat Twin engines in Citroën were successful after war on 2CV and equivalents( Mehari, Dyane, Ami 6, Ami 8 ), for simply maintenance, by people.
Except the VISA and LNA, with THOMSON CSF electronic ignition, there were a lot of failures !
For Flat Four boxer engine, the third model using this system was the GS, and GSA. First generation boxer had 1015 cm 3 and both failure.
1220 cm 3, was better, and 1300 cm was successful.
Pistons works horizontally, and hand crancking is more easy than normal engine with vertical pistons working.
No, it was Hans Ledwinka and Paul Jaray. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatra_V570
German manufacturers lost their car designs as spoils of war , and still continued to succeed, england got the designs and failed, because they didn't improve what they were making, improve your product or your gone that is with everything
Interesting, but what of the May Beetle (Maikaefer), the development of Austrian engineer, Josef Ganz?
+Norman Teck He's a fascinating person, too, he's on the radar for a feature in future.
+Norman Teck --Interesting comment as I have just finished reading Ganz's biography by Paul Schilperoord this week! A fascinating story and Ganz should be given much more credit than Tatra for the development of the Beetle. He was editor of "Motor-Kritik" and not only called for a "Volkswagen" car for the masses but set out the parameters: backbone chassis, rear-mounted engine, swing axle suspension. He worked as a consultant for Mercedes-Benz (check out the 130/140/170h cars that are surprisingly VW-like), BMW (AM 1, again with a backbone chassis and swing axles) but his ideas came most closely together in the Standard Superior, another German car (in spite of the name). Tatra managed to get ahold of Ganz's patents through devious means described in the book but Ganz had a good relationship with Hans Ledwinka. Dr. Porsche, an independent engineer, was stuck with designing the Beetle since no German manufacturer wanted to touch it and he clearly borrowed heavily from Ganz's widely-publicized ideas. The other person I would like to know more about is Siegfried Marcus, another Austrian Jew, who ran a handcart with a gasoline-powered internal combustion engine in 1870! Needless to say, the Nazis expunged his memory as thoroughly as they did Ganz's name so we only know about Daimler and Benz.
@@Sprocketboy1956 , thank you for your thoughtful reply. I had never heard of Siegfried Marcus. The Nazis were thorough and had worldwide help (www.ibmandtheholocaust.com, Edward VIII).
He brings a drawing of a 1969 beetle to compare. You didn't have the budget to source a split window?
why always forcing others to suffer under your musical-"taste" ? Learn to pronounce Volkswagen ("Folkswage", not Wolkswagen, "Por-Sche", not Porsch, Maybach is "Mybach"..... and so on).....Espionage? Look at the cars of today , no difference between one or the other , espionage ? No, lack of fantasy , lack of courage to try something out middle of the road, lack of taste of the clients !
Thanks TomTom. I mean Danke!