I want you to know, I ended up reading this one again because I _heard_ the stupid pun in my head before I understood it. I'm mostly just mad that you came up with it first.
Fantastic video. I especially like the part at 9:00 where Ian momentarily grows 2 extra hands to depress the main spring and remove the butt stock. Your techinque is truly unmatched sir.
The potential was certainly there for it to be a French counterpart to the MG34 as an infantry GPMG. It amazes me how many potentially good designs fell by the wayside.
It was a missed opportunity as a mass produced aircraft MG as well! The Air Force dismissed it on the pretext it had a tendency to jam in altitude, but it probably had more to do with the lubricant used. The Navy kept it in service until after WW2 and had no problem with it. The Air Force replaced it with the "Reibel" gun (MAC-34), which was a good design... But more expensive, not synchronisable, and drum-fed which ended being a problem. It took several years to develop a belt-feeder (the elder brother of the one of the well known 20mm Hispano), ironically recycling the belt link of the Darne design, or so I've read. In summary, years of delay, complications and expenses which could have been avoided by sticking to the Darne design...
I always thought that a bipod-equipped infantry version of the Soviet ShKAS revolver-machine-gun would’ve made a good Soviet counterpart to the MG-42. It had a high rate of fire, was relatively light, and quite reliable.
@@stoneylonesome4062 The SHKAS really shoots too fast for infantry use. Without a way to change the barrel it would overheat fat too quickly, and in any case the USSR had the DP-28 and SGM in the same caliber which were both perfectly cromulent rifle caliber machine guns at much saner rates of fire. It's worth noting that the SHVAK, the 20mm version of the SHKAS, did see service on the ground in the T-60 tanks - with rate of fire decreased by quite a lot!
The grip / trigger guard makes perfect sense... A lot of Great War / Interwar pilot and observer gloves would've been sheepskin mittens, with the fleece on the inside, and the fingers grouped in pairs [with a separate thumb, or course] - almost like a pig's trotter. So you'd need a huge trigger guard to get two heavily gloved fingers into - even if only one was required for the trigger.
Ian, thank you ever so much for bringing us these beautiful pieces of history. In my opinion you are the most valuable firearms channel on the internet. Again, your community thanks you from the bottom of our heart!
Thank you for discussing this Darne gun. I learned a lot of interesting Darne facts from this Darne video. I thought it was particularly neat that the manufacturer would provide this Darne gun in any Darne calibre you pleased.
It’d probably be very difficult to pull off, but I’d be fascinated to see a video of Ian showing how the firing mechanism for machine guns on ww1biplanes worked, from the trigger the pilot pulls to the mounting of the gun itself. That’d be really cool!
I know someone who is restoring an early Darne SxS in i2 gauge. The mechanism makes one think of what might happen if a watch and a puzzle box had a child. Very elegant, but easy to repair if you have four hands.
The trigger guard and grip seem to be designed to accommodate thick "three finger" mittens (the 1-2-2 finger mitt, not like the modern 1-1-3 finger configuration)
As a longtime viewer and Merch, supporter I love that there are weapons out there I’ve never heard of. Thank you for all the time and effort Ian. What a historical legacy of information you give to the world.
As a forgotten weapon, it's a winner. It's amazing to me that you say that was a fairly cheap machine gun to make, as it looks very intricate to manufacture. Sounds like it worked a lot better than it looked. That feed system, just amazing that worked at all, much less was reliable. But it is undeniably cool! ^-^
This Darne gun was awesome to take a look at! Certain parts and construction of this firearm reminded me of an M240 like the but stock with the built in buffer and the firing pin design and retention (similar to a full auto M240 firing pin). Plus the tilting bolt lockup and the front part of the carrier/piston looks very reminiscent of the M240 parts. Being that the M240 is BAR style action flipped upside down it locks with a tilting mechanism as well but executed differently from this Darne gun. Very interesting mechanisms/designs, would be neat to see what the proprietary belt/belt links would of looked like. I like that the cartridge is stripped from the belt into position to be loaded into the chamber from the carrier/bolt cycling back from recoil rather then relying on a heavy spring alone to push the bolt/carrier forward then strip, feed, & chamber the next round locking up in battery. There were a few other firearms this one reminded me of or used parts from as you pointed out, great video as always Ian, keep up your amazing work making videos on guns like this that you more then likely would never know existed without the video on it from Forgotten Weapons! ❤👍
I also was surprised at the similarity to the FN MAG. Slap a mg42 feeding mechanism on top and it is pretty much done. A non reciprocating colt would be an easy add on by the looks of it aswell. Love how modular it is aswell, even though it is a fairly modern concept for weapons, reminds me of the Stoner lmg.
Remember that a machine gun ends up needing a strong enough spring to mostly absorb the force of the recoil. So even a gun designed around a pull-out belt will have enough spring to feed a push-through belt just as well.
@@ScottKenny1978 absolutely! Hence the big old recoil spring with a lot of pressure on it we seen Ian disassemble from the firearm with 3 hands lol. That recoil spring would definitely feed a linked or push thru belt mechanism no problem. I was just saying I like the fact that the builder made the choice to use the “pull out” method is all 😂
@@Glatidoz that was my thoughts exactly on the similarities to the FN MAG!! I own a Ohio Ordnance Works M240 SLR which is a semi auto M240 Bravo and have watched all of Ians other videos on the FN MAG and all the variants he’s covered to date. I have seen the military FN 240, etc in person at different gun shows and shooting events over the years as well so the firing pin really stuck out to me, although it is much shorter in the Darne it still has the spherical ball end on the end of the firing pin that sits in a socket in the bolt carrier and then the other end protrudes into the bolt very similar to a full auto M240/MAG etc with that fixed firing pin that has the same ball end that fits into a socket in the bolt carrier and only fully protrudes from the bolt face when the bolt/carrier tilts into the fully locked position or fully into battery. And it really does remind me of a Stoner type automatic weapons system with the modularity that was there all the way back in the 1930’s!! This was a really cool video to watch, these guns you never hear of or see always seem to amaze me in some way with the mechanics/inner workings.
@@ScottKenny1978 in the case of this automatic weapon it uses a heavy recoil spring and the buffer built into the butt stock with a plunger sticking out for the bolt/carrier to hit near the end of its rearward travel to absorb some energy. The M240 or FN MAG utilizes an identical looking buffer built into butt stock with a pin/plunger protruding to absorb some energy and slow the bolt/carrier to a stop as it reaches the end of rearward travel, then the buffer and recoil spring help slam that thing back into battery. I believe the m240 buffers are both spring loaded and hydraulic, mine shoots super smooth for a .308 for sure. Wonder if the buffer in the Darne gun was just an extra spring pushing on the plunger or if they attempted a hydraulic system, it’s possible but hard to say without tearing it apart to get a closer look. Either way having a buffer in the stock is better then just a metal bolt smacking the rear of metal receiver like a lot of firearms were designed whether it’s a semi or full auto.
I am always amazed about the level of engineering included in those guns with what they had back in the days ! A Darne engineer with the tools and knowledge we have today would make some craaaaaaaaaazy stuff
Overlooked part. The infantry MG only weights 8.4 kg (7.4 kg the aerial one, with lighter barrel and without stock) that's VERY light. However the lack of a quick exchange barrel limits its effectiveness.
You mention Italy as a customer, would the caliber have been 7,7x56R ( .303Br)? France produced 7,7 from 1918 to WWII for their Lewis and Darne Aircraft Guns. Thanks Ian, on the thoroughness of the video DocAV
The Four Hands Moment was hillarious! FN SCAR copied their buttstock retention. One of the most beautiful bolt groups I have ever seen. Flowing lines and so elegantly machined. The retention pins are just fascinating engineering.
It's interesting how sometimes on here you see weapons that are forgotten for good reasons (Zip pistol for example) but so often you find ideas that were good or even great, just in the wrong place at the wrong time.
One word about the Darne on aircraft. Given the very French "laissez faire" way of doing things, Armée de l'Air fighter aircraft were fitted well into the 1930s with the reliable but already obsolescent Vickers Mk.III in .303 produced under license. The Darne could be synchronized but the system used was not reliable, thus they were mounted in underwing fairings in a few instances, like the early Dewoitine D-37 and Loire-46. Dewoitine D.500s used a combination of fuselage-mounted Vickers Mk.IIIs and Darne, for example. In the late French 501s and 510s they were replaced altogether by the MAC-34. The new design also had to contend with the Darne-Lewis, a licensed version of the Lewis Mk.II/III (easily distinguishable due to the wooden heat sinks on the gas piston). By 1939 the Darne was used mainly on secod-line aircraft thrown into the fray as an observer gun, on the likes of the lumbering Les Mureaux and Potez-39 two-seaters. The ones used by Yugoslavia - not Serbia - were all of the observer type IIRC (it's 5AM and insomnia is frying my brain) and standard issue for rear defence on two-seaters (Potez 25 and Breguet XIX) and bombers like the Bristol Blenheim. Why so many got exported and so few saw service with the Armée de l'Air? Well... It's something I read years ago in a well respected French magazine (AVIONS by SARL Lela Press), and it basically boiled down to the French procurement being a cheap fu... and considering the Darne as both expensive and complicated. "Why bother with new material created by a private company if we have thousands of Vickers Mk.IIIs lying around and our own folks at Saint Etienne and Chatellerault have been croaking for years to no end on how their next machine gun is going to be superlative?" That's the "Petoire" or "Firecracker". I mean, the MAC-34. Also, the French State got a pretty pinch in taxes and fees from the exports. So, 10/10 for the State owned companies and 5/10 for the private one. The Darne could have been the MAC 24/29 of the air with some further development, but official shenanigans and conservatism killed it. Sorry for the wall of text. Got carried away on one of my favourite topics. Cheers.
@ Le Trepidant 👆This👆 level of knowledge and understanding is what makes the Forgotten Weapons comment section so far superior to all the other gun channels, and worth taking the time to study in depth (while ignoring all the repitition of very weak/piss-poor "jokes" by idiots who really think they are being somehow "funny" and/or "original" 🙄), so thank you for your intelligent and reasoned words Sir... 😁👍
Those pins, especially the U shaped ones, scream "made by a blacksmith" to me. Definitely something easily produced in numbers at the time through very available channels.
@@smackarel7 and a gunner capable of maintaining some trigger-discipline under extremely stressful circumstances, which is pretty-much Machine Gunnery 101 in most armies around the World... Because an MG with no ammunition and/or an overheated barrel is as much use as a lightbulb with no electrical supply, but a whole lot heavier to carry...
It would be insteresting to see the history of the FN Scar, especially what it could have been, since originally it wasn't meant to be 5.56 or 7.62, but 6.8 spc. Also, what if the fal was adopted with the .280 british, and then modernized with lighter materials and rails, would the fn scar program happen? Would the m16 be adopted? Maybe a lighter version of the 280 british, since it's a long cartridge.
@@lazzie7495 And there are smaller cartridges that can have about the same effective range as a 308(in a ~16" barrel), what I know is that the 6.8 spc was developed because it was more compatible with ar mags, but they were looking for 6.5 grendel or 6mm arc.
@@lazzie7495 the .280 British is basically the same performance as the old 6.5 Arisaka, 140gr at 2400fps. With newer powders we can get that performance out of a much shorter cartridge. I mean, that is doable from a Grendel cartridge. As to whether the M16 would have been adopted, it definitely would have been adopted by the USAF as a replacement for the M2 Carbine. The problems with the M14 wouldn't have been as obvious with the .280 British compared to the 7.62x51. But the weight of the beast and weight of ammunition would still be an issue.
Very Interesting, the design is leagues ahead of the curve, Mostly in it's modularity, but suffers the same flaws as most early iteration MGs of this Era. It's feed mechanism is overly finicky relying on pull out/push in devices for stripping the belt. (very Vickers/Maxim like) It's like the primordial ancestor of the GP MG concept that Germany (and eventually Everybody Else) adopted. Mostly limited by the Lack of refinements that were ironed out by later adopters of the GP concept who had multiple iterations to streamline and improve their clunky Mechanics. Thanx Ian, love the history and nobody hates a Mag dump at the Range!
"Built by an armorer from Saint-Étienne, renowned for his prestigious hunting rifles, the Darne machine guns continue to cause debate. Of modern design, allowing very cheap manufacturing and therefore widely exported, these weapons seem to have presented, however, a recurring lack of reliability and robustness which had to limit their role in the Air Force to that of a transitional solution." "The conclusion of a test carried out at Versailles in 1924 clearly reflects the impression given by the Darne: 'the commission considers that the Darne machine gun is of ingenious design but still very defective in execution.'" "In 1927, a report from General Challéat highlighted a serious defect in the Darne machine gun, which was unlikely to be corrected due to the multiple modifications made to the weapon: 'requested for 9 years, interchangeability has never been achieved in any satisfactory manner'. Subject to progressive improvements, the Darne machine gun was finally considered acceptable, when the Air Force adopted the 7.5 mm caliber planned in 1924 as the new regulatory caliber." "The Darne machine gun had passed the first tests in the competition organized by the RAF in 1935, but failed in extensive trials. In France, endurance tests are being carried out to assess how well weapons hold up in service. A report from July 27, 1938 mentions shooting incidents due to numerous breakages or deformations of parts: "unmodified parts do not resist firing" and reinforced parts, established at the request of the Yugoslav air force, are missing. focus [10] . The experience of naval aviation, which had recovered the Darne decommissioned by the Air Force, was to confirm these failures: "their operation was erratic to the point that we had given up hoping to get better than the first 10 or 12 shots." before irreparable jamming in flight", was to write Admiral Mesny about the Darne mounted as fixed armament on the Vought 156, and therefore not being able to be rearmed manually."
I'm a direct descendent of Regis Darne, seeing his family name on your video is surreal. Thank you so much for this
thats a darne interesting story!
@@ripvanwinkle2002 darne good joke
You seem like a really Darne good descendant.
PRETTY DARN COOL!
Cool bro, do you still had any of his inventions in the old family attic?
I love that someone turned the MG42 I drew in 7th grade into real gun.
French guns are basically what 7th graders attempt at drawing guns.
For ex: ask a kid to draw a Thompson, and you will get MAS-38
Today's 7th grade education is the highest standard of education of the 30s... so that would explain a lot, lol
actually someone took this and turn it to mg42
@@Eluderatnight French always make arms stupidly.
I had a very similar first take
I am so impressed with how normal someone with three arms can seem.
That wasn't his "third arm"
That was his fourth arm
The adoption of the Darne as an infantry gun was probably limited by the rarity of four handed gunners in most armies of that time.
God damn Goro.
I've met Ian in person and I don't recall him having 4 arms...
Even though I've been subscribed to a gun channel for years now, this is the first time I've seen a Darne gun
Maybe because it's a........ Forgotten weapon....😎
I want you to know, I ended up reading this one again because I _heard_ the stupid pun in my head before I understood it. I'm mostly just mad that you came up with it first.
It’s about Darne time too !
Well, that's a Darne shame
You said what everyone was thinking while watching this video
Ian demonstrating an incredible amount of restraint, not making any Darne jokes
Fantastic video. I especially like the part at 9:00 where Ian momentarily grows 2 extra hands to depress the main spring and remove the butt stock. Your techinque is truly unmatched sir.
The omnipotence of Gun Jesus strikes again!
It’s not that he grows extra arms so much as duplicates himself.
@@jeffjag2691 his powers are even greater than i could have ever imagined.
The extra arms came with the Varustaleka hoodie he demo'd a couple weeks ago.
@@mikehipperson Ian is also Gun Vishnu when needed
8:59 Ian reveals his ability to grow a second pair of arms at will
He is just moving in a mysterious way.
He is Gun Jesus, after all.
Slaps on rear sight ladder*
“This is a Darne good machine gun “
I was sort of expecting Ian to say this
Ian missed such a Darne great opportunity for a dad joke there 😂
but made up for it with extra hands and arms
Darne it Captain he's a gun doctor not a comedian
I knew I couldn't be the only one to chuckle a bit every time Ian said "the Darne gun" .
Darne tootin!
I always thought "gun jesus" was just a silly nickname, but Ian's ability to manifest an extra pair of arms makes me suspisious.
A Darne good superpower
Also his full name is *Lee LeMan, Our Lord and Savior, Gun Jesus*
I suspect he summoned Shiva to do the honors.
There's a rumor he can turn .32 S&W into 7.65 French long with a wave of his hand.
And they say Evolution is a lie!
The potential was certainly there for it to be a French counterpart to the MG34 as an infantry GPMG. It amazes me how many potentially good designs fell by the wayside.
It was a missed opportunity as a mass produced aircraft MG as well! The Air Force dismissed it on the pretext it had a tendency to jam in altitude, but it probably had more to do with the lubricant used. The Navy kept it in service until after WW2 and had no problem with it.
The Air Force replaced it with the "Reibel" gun (MAC-34), which was a good design... But more expensive, not synchronisable, and drum-fed which ended being a problem. It took several years to develop a belt-feeder (the elder brother of the one of the well known 20mm Hispano), ironically recycling the belt link of the Darne design, or so I've read.
In summary, years of delay, complications and expenses which could have been avoided by sticking to the Darne design...
I always thought that a bipod-equipped infantry version of the Soviet ShKAS revolver-machine-gun would’ve made a good Soviet counterpart to the MG-42. It had a high rate of fire, was relatively light, and quite reliable.
@@stoneylonesome4062 The SHKAS really shoots too fast for infantry use. Without a way to change the barrel it would overheat fat too quickly, and in any case the USSR had the DP-28 and SGM in the same caliber which were both perfectly cromulent rifle caliber machine guns at much saner rates of fire. It's worth noting that the SHVAK, the 20mm version of the SHKAS, did see service on the ground in the T-60 tanks - with rate of fire decreased by quite a lot!
The grip / trigger guard makes perfect sense... A lot of Great War / Interwar pilot and observer gloves would've been sheepskin mittens, with the fleece on the inside, and the fingers grouped in pairs [with a separate thumb, or course] - almost like a pig's trotter. So you'd need a huge trigger guard to get two heavily gloved fingers into - even if only one was required for the trigger.
And if you're already making a pistol grip for the observer mount, why both spending the extra money on redesigning it for the infantry variant.
I also think the narrow pistol grip would be better for higher elevations, so you don't have to ywist your arm/wrist as much
Ian, thank you ever so much for bringing us these beautiful pieces of history. In my opinion you are the most valuable firearms channel on the internet. Again, your community thanks you from the bottom of our heart!
Thank you for discussing this Darne gun. I learned a lot of interesting Darne facts from this Darne video. I thought it was particularly neat that the manufacturer would provide this Darne gun in any Darne calibre you pleased.
But where can I get some Darne bait?
@@bosef1 The machine gun *is* Darne bait. It is bait manufactured by Darne, and it was designed to lure in Gun Jesus.
The story behind Darne is Darne interesting
Nice!
"What are you watching?"
"A video on a Darne machine gun."
"Oh, what's the machine gun?"
"I told you, it's a Darne machine gun!"
I was waiting for this. Thank you
Thank-you Ian for explaining everything so thorough without making it boring! 👍
Hearing Ian flawlessly pronounce French names and words is the ASMR I didn't know I needed.
@@brianferguson7840 Ca ce voit immédiatement que t'es français parce que tu peux pas t'empêcher d'ouvrir ta gueule.
His German pronunciations are generally really good as well. Just goes to show that his interest goes beyond history and mechanics
he wrote a book on the french infantry rifles, he knows his french guns.
I hope some Darne shotguns get a video eventually too, their weird sliding-breach actions are something I haven't seen anywhere else.
Not that sliding Darne action, but there are some videos:
th-cam.com/video/Msy1ueUT0o8/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/KBwU7_5qAmI/w-d-xo.html
Darne good shotguns are always a hit
So great to hear Ian say it is a "Forgotten Weapon" in this video. So a Forgotten Weapon on the Forgotten Weapons channel! Best channel ever!
9:01 Gun Jesus demonstrates the miraculous 4 handed disasembly technique.
It’d probably be very difficult to pull off, but I’d be fascinated to see a video of Ian showing how the firing mechanism for machine guns on ww1biplanes worked, from the trigger the pilot pulls to the mounting of the gun itself. That’d be really cool!
A trip to the Rhinebeck Aerodrom in Rhinebeck NY perhaps?
This is very much a "necessity is the mother of invention" type of gun and I love it.
Necessity is a Darne good reason!
I have been waiting for this gun for so long! Thank you!
It's about Darne time, right?
@@classicforreal 😂
13:08 You know a gun is complex when Ian doesn't feel confident enough to fully take it apart. The man who disassembled 30 SIGs.
I know someone who is restoring an early Darne SxS in i2 gauge. The mechanism makes one think of what might happen if a watch and a puzzle box had a child. Very elegant, but easy to repair if you have four hands.
@12:37 "This wire connector is... ^oops!" I really felt that.
The trigger guard and grip seem to be designed to accommodate thick "three finger" mittens (the 1-2-2 finger mitt, not like the modern 1-1-3 finger configuration)
Owned a 16g Darne shotgun with a sliding barrel loading system,nice little gun!
You, Paul Harrell, Garand Thumb, Hickok45, even Brandon Herrera, are all my favorite gun dudes. Keep it up.
Would be amazing to see forgotten weapons collab with paul harrell. Ian talk about an old gun tear it apart and then paul chrono and accuracy test it
I forgot to mention Chris from Lucky Gunner. Killer stuff. I second this notion of yours!
@@randomm9683 Yup... 👆THIS👆
We FINALLY caught a piece flying across the room like you're always saying could happen on camera!
As a longtime viewer and Merch, supporter I love that there are weapons out there I’ve never heard of. Thank you for all the time and effort Ian. What a historical legacy of information you give to the world.
As a forgotten weapon, it's a winner. It's amazing to me that you say that was a fairly cheap machine gun to make, as it looks very intricate to manufacture. Sounds like it worked a lot better than it looked. That feed system, just amazing that worked at all, much less was reliable. But it is undeniably cool! ^-^
This Darne gun was awesome to take a look at! Certain parts and construction of this firearm reminded me of an M240 like the but stock with the built in buffer and the firing pin design and retention (similar to a full auto M240 firing pin). Plus the tilting bolt lockup and the front part of the carrier/piston looks very reminiscent of the M240 parts. Being that the M240 is BAR style action flipped upside down it locks with a tilting mechanism as well but executed differently from this Darne gun. Very interesting mechanisms/designs, would be neat to see what the proprietary belt/belt links would of looked like. I like that the cartridge is stripped from the belt into position to be loaded into the chamber from the carrier/bolt cycling back from recoil rather then relying on a heavy spring alone to push the bolt/carrier forward then strip, feed, & chamber the next round locking up in battery. There were a few other firearms this one reminded me of or used parts from as you pointed out, great video as always Ian, keep up your amazing work making videos on guns like this that you more then likely would never know existed without the video on it from Forgotten Weapons! ❤👍
I also was surprised at the similarity to the FN MAG. Slap a mg42 feeding mechanism on top and it is pretty much done. A non reciprocating colt would be an easy add on by the looks of it aswell. Love how modular it is aswell, even though it is a fairly modern concept for weapons, reminds me of the Stoner lmg.
Remember that a machine gun ends up needing a strong enough spring to mostly absorb the force of the recoil. So even a gun designed around a pull-out belt will have enough spring to feed a push-through belt just as well.
@@ScottKenny1978 absolutely! Hence the big old recoil spring with a lot of pressure on it we seen Ian disassemble from the firearm with 3 hands lol. That recoil spring would definitely feed a linked or push thru belt mechanism no problem. I was just saying I like the fact that the builder made the choice to use the “pull out” method is all 😂
@@Glatidoz that was my thoughts exactly on the similarities to the FN MAG!! I own a Ohio Ordnance Works M240 SLR which is a semi auto M240 Bravo and have watched all of Ians other videos on the FN MAG and all the variants he’s covered to date. I have seen the military FN 240, etc in person at different gun shows and shooting events over the years as well so the firing pin really stuck out to me, although it is much shorter in the Darne it still has the spherical ball end on the end of the firing pin that sits in a socket in the bolt carrier and then the other end protrudes into the bolt very similar to a full auto M240/MAG etc with that fixed firing pin that has the same ball end that fits into a socket in the bolt carrier and only fully protrudes from the bolt face when the bolt/carrier tilts into the fully locked position or fully into battery. And it really does remind me of a Stoner type automatic weapons system with the modularity that was there all the way back in the 1930’s!! This was a really cool video to watch, these guns you never hear of or see always seem to amaze me in some way with the mechanics/inner workings.
@@ScottKenny1978 in the case of this automatic weapon it uses a heavy recoil spring and the buffer built into the butt stock with a plunger sticking out for the bolt/carrier to hit near the end of its rearward travel to absorb some energy. The M240 or FN MAG utilizes an identical looking buffer built into butt stock with a pin/plunger protruding to absorb some energy and slow the bolt/carrier to a stop as it reaches the end of rearward travel, then the buffer and recoil spring help slam that thing back into battery. I believe the m240 buffers are both spring loaded and hydraulic, mine shoots super smooth for a .308 for sure. Wonder if the buffer in the Darne gun was just an extra spring pushing on the plunger or if they attempted a hydraulic system, it’s possible but hard to say without tearing it apart to get a closer look. Either way having a buffer in the stock is better then just a metal bolt smacking the rear of metal receiver like a lot of firearms were designed whether it’s a semi or full auto.
It always takes me longer than it should to realise the 3rd hand isn't Ian just spontaneously generating one as needed
Are you sure?
I am always amazed about the level of engineering included in those guns with what they had back in the days ! A Darne engineer with the tools and knowledge we have today would make some craaaaaaaaaazy stuff
Overlooked part. The infantry MG only weights 8.4 kg (7.4 kg the aerial one, with lighter barrel and without stock) that's VERY light.
However the lack of a quick exchange barrel limits its effectiveness.
Darne light!
Top shelf, as always.
You mention Italy as a customer, would the caliber have been 7,7x56R ( .303Br)?
France produced 7,7 from 1918 to WWII for their Lewis and Darne Aircraft Guns.
Thanks Ian, on the thoroughness of the video
DocAV
It would have used the same 7,7mm cartridge based on the British pattern as the Scotti and Breda MGs.
Cheers.
Thank you , Ian .
🐺
Their experience with shotguns makes that feeding mechanism make a bit more sense. It’s not too unlike lifter in a tube-fed pump shotgun!
The Four Hands Moment was hillarious! FN SCAR copied their buttstock retention. One of the most beautiful bolt groups I have ever seen. Flowing lines and so elegantly machined. The retention pins are just fascinating engineering.
The retention pins are squarely in the category of "If it's stupid and it works... it ain't stupid!".
That looks cool. I'm glad you covered another interesting thing
Darned interesting!
Thanks for showing us this Darne gun. I had a Darne good time!
Great video Ian! Always a pleasure,
Darned pleasure
@@classicforreal 🤣🤣
Thanks Ian
I learn so much. Thanks.
Darne had some beautiful sporting firearms.
I've seen models of these with a drum magazine mounted to the side (like the Riebel) for flexible aircraft mounts.
It's interesting how sometimes on here you see weapons that are forgotten for good reasons (Zip pistol for example) but so often you find ideas that were good or even great, just in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Thanks for the great content, interesting as always.
Darne interesting!
Wow, the military museum is just next to my house, I feel strangely honored.
Quite the Darne honour, no?
Thanks for making this.
I'd spend a hour or so to watch a comprehensive comparison of all the variations!
A Darne good hour
Years ago I was allowed to fondle a large bore goose gun by Darne. That sliding breach had almost no visible seam. Very nice products.
Darne people randomly fondling guns!
Hans, can we have a MG-34?
We have MG-34 at ze barracks.
MG-34 at barracks:
This is the coolest darne machinegun I've seen all day!
Great video. Ian, this gun was Darne interesting.
Thank you very much for TH-cam work 😉👍👌✌🤙👏👏
One word about the Darne on aircraft.
Given the very French "laissez faire" way of doing things, Armée de l'Air fighter aircraft were fitted well into the 1930s with the reliable but already obsolescent Vickers Mk.III in .303 produced under license. The Darne could be synchronized but the system used was not reliable, thus they were mounted in underwing fairings in a few instances, like the early Dewoitine D-37 and Loire-46. Dewoitine D.500s used a combination of fuselage-mounted Vickers Mk.IIIs and Darne, for example. In the late French 501s and 510s they were replaced altogether by the MAC-34. The new design also had to contend with the Darne-Lewis, a licensed version of the Lewis Mk.II/III (easily distinguishable due to the wooden heat sinks on the gas piston). By 1939 the Darne was used mainly on secod-line aircraft thrown into the fray as an observer gun, on the likes of the lumbering Les Mureaux and Potez-39 two-seaters. The ones used by Yugoslavia - not Serbia - were all of the observer type IIRC (it's 5AM and insomnia is frying my brain) and standard issue for rear defence on two-seaters (Potez 25 and Breguet XIX) and bombers like the Bristol Blenheim.
Why so many got exported and so few saw service with the Armée de l'Air? Well... It's something I read years ago in a well respected French magazine (AVIONS by SARL Lela Press), and it basically boiled down to the French procurement being a cheap fu... and considering the Darne as both expensive and complicated. "Why bother with new material created by a private company if we have thousands of Vickers Mk.IIIs lying around and our own folks at Saint Etienne and Chatellerault have been croaking for years to no end on how their next machine gun is going to be superlative?" That's the "Petoire" or "Firecracker". I mean, the MAC-34.
Also, the French State got a pretty pinch in taxes and fees from the exports. So, 10/10 for the State owned companies and 5/10 for the private one. The Darne could have been the MAC 24/29 of the air with some further development, but official shenanigans and conservatism killed it.
Sorry for the wall of text. Got carried away on one of my favourite topics.
Cheers.
@ Le Trepidant 👆This👆 level of knowledge and understanding is what makes the Forgotten Weapons comment section so far superior to all the other gun channels, and worth taking the time to study in depth (while ignoring all the repitition of very weak/piss-poor "jokes" by idiots who really think they are being somehow "funny" and/or "original" 🙄), so thank you for your intelligent and reasoned words Sir... 😁👍
@@therogers4432 Thanks, mate. Just my two cents as a scale modeler. Glad to be of help.
Cheers.
If you're having problems with dirt and mud in your aircraft gun, then jamming is the _least_ of your worries.
Yes, its probably because you're shooting was ineffective to beging with.
Darned least of worries
"We'll just make our own Darne belts!"
Darne good video Ian!
wow, a real forgotten weapon !
Darne forgotten!
Woke up to a new forgotten weapons video, oh darn
Those pins, especially the U shaped ones, scream "made by a blacksmith" to me. Definitely something easily produced in numbers at the time through very available channels.
It looks like it would have been a good weapon for a tank as well, since it can swap feed directions.
yes but at what extent? the barrel wasn't cooled or interchangeable
@@Taxandrya Didn't stop the 1919 browning and dp 26 being used in tanks. Just needs a heavier barrel.
@@smackarel7 and a gunner capable of maintaining some trigger-discipline under extremely stressful circumstances, which is pretty-much Machine Gunnery 101 in most armies around the World...
Because an MG with no ammunition and/or an overheated barrel is as much use as a lightbulb with no electrical supply, but a whole lot heavier to carry...
Thank you for your videos
Ian grew and extra set of hands! Impressive!
Guess you could say it was a DARNEd good effort.
This is a pretty Darne cool gun
It would be insteresting to see the history of the FN Scar, especially what it could have been, since originally it wasn't meant to be 5.56 or 7.62, but 6.8 spc. Also, what if the fal was adopted with the .280 british, and then modernized with lighter materials and rails, would the fn scar program happen? Would the m16 be adopted? Maybe a lighter version of the 280 british, since it's a long cartridge.
The .280 British is more like a slightly smaller .308. it's not a 5.56 killer
@@lazzie7495 And there are smaller cartridges that can have about the same effective range as a 308(in a ~16" barrel), what I know is that the 6.8 spc was developed because it was more compatible with ar mags, but they were looking for 6.5 grendel or 6mm arc.
@@lazzie7495 the .280 British is basically the same performance as the old 6.5 Arisaka, 140gr at 2400fps.
With newer powders we can get that performance out of a much shorter cartridge. I mean, that is doable from a Grendel cartridge.
As to whether the M16 would have been adopted, it definitely would have been adopted by the USAF as a replacement for the M2 Carbine.
The problems with the M14 wouldn't have been as obvious with the .280 British compared to the 7.62x51. But the weight of the beast and weight of ammunition would still be an issue.
@@leandrovm45 yeah, but .280 British is nothing like the 6.8 cartridges that were expiramented with later.
The thought process of firearms designers; never ceases to amaze me.
I mean, who thinks like these guys?
you could say the history of the company is *darne* interesting
A darn good machine gun
It’s about Darne time
Very Interesting, the design is leagues ahead of the curve, Mostly in it's modularity, but suffers the same flaws as most early iteration MGs of this Era. It's feed mechanism is overly finicky relying on pull out/push in devices for stripping the belt. (very Vickers/Maxim like) It's like the primordial ancestor of the GP MG concept that Germany (and eventually Everybody Else) adopted. Mostly limited by the Lack of refinements that were ironed out by later adopters of the GP concept who had multiple iterations to streamline and improve their clunky Mechanics. Thanx Ian, love the history and nobody hates a Mag dump at the Range!
Them darn Darne guns, needing 4 hands to take apart, darnit Darne. I had a chuckle every time I heard the Darne guns.
Drink every time Ian says, "Darne".
Glue, glue, glurgh?
Wow, woke up JUST in time it looks like.
I was making coffee
An exceptionally modern, (if not prescient in some ways) machine gun in appearance and modularity. Very impressive.
I love that pistol grip! Seriously.
Freaked me out when the extra hands appeared to help with disassembly :-p
I do love that trigger guard!
Kinda shocked to learn that Ian has 4 hands, however!
Holy Cow! You just grew 2 more arms. It’s a Ian (“Gun Jesus”) miracle!
That darn gun is pretty slick
Great video. Has really hoping for in-depth review of belt feed mechanism.
Hearing Ian say 11 487 as the serial number while reading the real serial number tripped me up a bit, gotta say
lol when you get a jam in the Darne it causes you to shout "DARN IT!"
Darne M1922 was a hot favourite in 1920's machinegun trials in Czechoslovakia but failed miserably to Madsen and what would later become the ZB vz.26.
I didn't really read the title and had this on in the background thinking Ian was swearing a lot more than usual.
Darne, that's some MG...
"Built by an armorer from Saint-Étienne, renowned for his prestigious hunting rifles, the Darne machine guns continue to cause debate. Of modern design, allowing very cheap manufacturing and therefore widely exported, these weapons seem to have presented, however, a recurring lack of reliability and robustness which had to limit their role in the Air Force to that of a transitional solution."
"The conclusion of a test carried out at Versailles in 1924 clearly reflects the impression given by the Darne: 'the commission considers that the Darne machine gun is of ingenious design but still very defective in execution.'"
"In 1927, a report from General Challéat highlighted a serious defect in the Darne machine gun, which was unlikely to be corrected due to the multiple modifications made to the weapon: 'requested for 9 years, interchangeability has never been achieved in any satisfactory manner'. Subject to progressive improvements, the Darne machine gun was finally considered acceptable, when the Air Force adopted the 7.5 mm caliber planned in 1924 as the new regulatory caliber."
"The Darne machine gun had passed the first tests in the competition organized by the RAF in 1935, but failed in extensive trials. In France, endurance tests are being carried out to assess how well weapons hold up in service. A report from July 27, 1938 mentions shooting incidents due to numerous breakages or deformations of parts: "unmodified parts do not resist firing" and reinforced parts, established at the request of the Yugoslav air force, are missing. focus [10] . The experience of naval aviation, which had recovered the Darne decommissioned by the Air Force, was to confirm these failures: "their operation was erratic to the point that we had given up hoping to get better than the first 10 or 12 shots." before irreparable jamming in flight", was to write Admiral Mesny about the Darne mounted as fixed armament on the Vought 156, and therefore not being able to be rearmed manually."
Ian had to bring out his extra set of arms for this video
At a first glance, it kinda looks like a PKM, a Bren and an MG42 got morphed together
Darn good video! 😀
Super ! Dzięki Ian! Może jeszcze coś znajdziesz w Polsce! Pozdrawiam!👽🖖
Is it just me, or isn't it hilarious hearing him say "Darn" repeatedly?
This is really a darn good machine gun!
That Darn gun! It just won't feed right, anymore.
Looks a bit like the MG42 and kinda like a smaller M60, one of my favorite crew serve weapons. That darn gun ;)