Great channel, such a good resource. I'm a fly fisherman and use much thinner line, between 3 and 6lb. I find the orvis not stronger than the Uni. Not sure if it would work as well in heavier mono.
Do you have plans to test the Nail Knot, or is it fundamentally the same as the Uni Knot? Your explanation about how the inner wraps of the Uni Knot unwind to form outer wraps makes me think that a correctly closed Uni Knot will ultimately form into a Nail Knot. Do you concur?
Hi Steve, it’s definitely on my list to do, in total honesty I have heard and seen it tied but I have never actually used it or tied it myself. Now the Uni knot if you think about it is basically a granny knot initially then by adding extra passes over the double up line it forms the hangman’s noose or as we call it today the Uni knot. The Nail knot has both the tag and standing end running thru the centre, without any additional line running along the outer wraps from front to back where as the Uni always has this outer line kinda over wrapping the inner wraps if cinched correctly. I would say the nail knot is more like a traditional whipping, bit like what they use to tie rod eyes on as it’s smooth to touch along entire length and diameter. Hope that helps, but yes in principle both knots have a whipping strategy , but differ slightly as one has all lines running along on inside. Tightlines and great point, I may bring this up when I finish the Uni to Uni this weekend. I did go over this cinching in the overview of the Uni knot, maybe take a look there when you have time. I actually also tested these 2 different Uni knots in the WSFK video and show how the standing end cinched Uni fails really easily.
Man you got me thinking.....it’s great how all these knots are just slightly different. The best advice really is with Uni if the outer wrap goes about 1.5-2.5 turns around the inner wraps it’s going to be good, if it’s like 0.5 turn or even straight, forget about it man it just slips every time.
I did some investigating today and have convinced myself that a Uni Knot and a Nail Knot involve the exact same loop and turns. The only difference is how the loop and turns are dressed as they are drawn closed and seated. Below I have attempted to summarize my findings. Wow! Trying to explain it in words is really tough. I'm not sure I'm using the correct terminology in the correct way. When I have a chance, I will create some illustrations to show what I am trying to describe. My motto is: "A picture is worth a thousand words, and a video is worth a thousand pictures." That's why I'm really enjoying your videos. They make it so much easier to understand. In the finished Nail Knot, the tag and standing ends are relatively straight as they traverse through the outer wraps. In the finished Uni Knot, the tag and standing ends twist as they traverse through the outer wraps. To form a Uni Knot: a loop is formed in the standing part, the tag end is wrapped around the standing part by feeding it in and out of the loop a specified number of times, the standing end is held, and tension is applied to the tag end to close the knot. As tension is applied to the tag end, the wraps of the tag end will twist with the standing end, and the loop will shrink. As the loop becomes smaller and smaller, the twists in the tag and standing ends will become tighter and tighter. As the loop continues to close, the force necessary to tighten the twists in the tag and standing ends will overcome the force required to twist the other section of the loop. Now, as the loop continues to shrink, the tag and standing ends will untwist, and be replaced by twist in the other section of the loop. The twisting in the other section of the loop will cause it to wrap around the the untwisting section of the tag and standing ends. This twisting and untwisting motion will continue until the knot seats, or the twisting and untwisting forces balance. In either case, the final knot will exhibit some number of inner twist and outer wraps. To form a Nail Knot, follow the exact same procedure as that used to form the Uni Knot, but as the Knot is closed, dress it so that all the inner twists convert to outer wraps. As was indicated when describing the closing of the Uni Knot, there will be a point when the twisting and untwisting forces balance, and the conversion of inner twist to outer wraps will cease. At this time, it is necessary to intervene and apply the necessary force to ensure the remaining twists in the tag and standing ends transition to outer wraps. When no more inner twists remain, the knot can be drawn closed and seated. An interesting ramification of this theory is that many different knots can form even though the same basic loops and turns are made with the tag end. The knot that ultimately forms will depend on how the loop and turns are dressed as they are drawn closed and seated. The final knot can exhibit: 1. A standing end that remains straight as it traverses through the center of the tag end wraps, with the unwrapped section of the loop traversing on the outside of the knot, straight from one side to the other. 2. Any ratio of inner twists and external wraps (Uni Knot). 3. No inner twist and only external wraps (Nail Knot). I am curious as to which configuration yields the greatest strength. Based on what you presented in your video, it is definitely not configuration 1. You indicated this is a very weak knot. I recall you said that this configuration typically forms when the knot is closed by holding the tag end and applying tension to the standing end, as opposed to holding the standing end and applying tension to the tag end. But I wonder, could configuration 3 (the Nail Knot) be the optimal configuration? I look forward to hearing your thoughts.
@@stevelaxton6971 Hi Steve, could you clarify the Nail Knot that you are describing uses a tube or a additional doubled up piece of line to pull the tag end thru centre? This is the Nail Knot I am familiar with and has been used in Fly Fishing for an eternity, Its normally used to connect Backing on the Fly Line as it binds in really well. Did you look at my WSFK video on the Uni Knot as I went over these two different variations in all the testing. Let me know, might be worth continuing on that thread once you have seen that video. I have also done a complete Overview for the Uni Knot, if you search Uni Knot Unwrapped this may be of interest also. Tightlines. I also smiled at TH-cam alogorithm, I had to approve your comments as I think the thread or your response was too long. 🤣😂 I really do enjoy talking about knots its crazy how they all vary so much in overall strength.
@@toitfishing Hi Warren, the Nail Knot I am referring to is typically tied with the assistance of a tool. It is very difficult, but not impossible, to tie without one. The name "Nail Knot" is unique in that it refers to the tool used to aid in tying the knot. There are multiple tying methods. One requires the tag end to be fed back through the center of the outer wraps after they're made (see www.animatedknots.com/nail-knot). A feat most easily accomplished using a tube, doubled up piece of line, or other similar tool. The second method is to perform the same procedure as you would to create a Uni Knot, but then manually form the outer wraps by unwinding the inner twist (see th-cam.com/video/2rPpr5s-c-s/w-d-xo.html). Ultimately, the Nail Knot is a form of slip knot that can be used in the same situations as a Uni Knot. For example, see www.justsportfishing.com/nail_loop_knot.html. I figured there was some issue submitting my previous comment. I did not receive any error or warning when I submitted it. But when I didn't get a response to my comment, I investigated. I have several Google accounts. I was able to see my comment when using the account I used to submit it, but I was unable to see my comment when using my other Google accounts. For lack of a better option, I tried resubmitting my comment. Again, no error or warning, but I still couldn't see my comment when using my other accounts. So I figured you or Google must have to approve my submission before it becomes visible to other users. It would be nice if the TH-cam app would give me some kind of feedback as to what was happening😖. Thanks for your help. Tight lines.
Hi Phil, you should take a look at the Ashley book of knots if you are interested in historic knots and where and who designed certain knots its really interesting. He has references in there and snippets of books dating back almost 400 years. On page 204 he refers to the Scaffold knot and the Gallows knot which is shown in the Diderot's encyclopedia dated 1762. Which is in fact the the Universal knot we all refer to today. One of many interests of mine is to see how these knot names change over time depending on the industry or people using it. For example a scaffolder may call it a XYZ knot and Farmer may call it an ABC knot and then confusion steps in and a fisherman in Australia outback calls it a EFG knot. I also spoke about this a little in one of my other UNI knot videos the "Unwrapped Series" and yes I refererred to the Duncan Knot and the Grinner Knot. Tightlines and have a great New Years
When I pull the standing-end, the knot slides against the hook and gets tight. When I pull the tag-end, the knot stays tight but slides away from the hook, opening the loop. Is this normal for the UniKnot?
Morning Jake, I ended up doing a video a while back discussing this exact topic, take a look here. th-cam.com/video/rs2BB7ID9Yg/w-d-xo.html Basically yes both your statements are correct but I would definitely only use the tag end cinch as that ensure the knot is cinched correctly and allows for the overwrapping. Once this is done you can then pull the standing end to slide the knot down or nudge the knot down with your fingers, extra bit of saliva does not hurt here as it protects the line especially for mono. You will find braid tends to slip down easily to the eyelet. Tightlines and thanks for reaching out.
Great channel, such a good resource. I'm a fly fisherman and use much thinner line, between 3 and 6lb. I find the orvis not stronger than the Uni. Not sure if it would work as well in heavier mono.
Will you be doing the Uni knot line to line? What about testing?
Yes we will be doing line to line connections soon. We will be testing all these knots also.
Do you have plans to test the Nail Knot, or is it fundamentally the same as the Uni Knot? Your explanation about how the inner wraps of the Uni Knot unwind to form outer wraps makes me think that a correctly closed Uni Knot will ultimately form into a Nail Knot. Do you concur?
Hi Steve, it’s definitely on my list to do, in total honesty I have heard and seen it tied but I have never actually used it or tied it myself. Now the Uni knot if you think about it is basically a granny knot initially then by adding extra passes over the double up line it forms the hangman’s noose or as we call it today the Uni knot. The Nail knot has both the tag and standing end running thru the centre, without any additional line running along the outer wraps from front to back where as the Uni always has this outer line kinda over wrapping the inner wraps if cinched correctly.
I would say the nail knot is more like a traditional whipping, bit like what they use to tie rod eyes on as it’s smooth to touch along entire length and diameter.
Hope that helps, but yes in principle both knots have a whipping strategy , but differ slightly as one has all lines running along on inside.
Tightlines and great point, I may bring this up when I finish the Uni to Uni this weekend.
I did go over this cinching in the overview of the Uni knot, maybe take a look there when you have time. I actually also tested these 2 different Uni knots in the WSFK video and show how the standing end cinched Uni fails really easily.
Man you got me thinking.....it’s great how all these knots are just slightly different. The best advice really is with Uni if the outer wrap goes about 1.5-2.5 turns around the inner wraps it’s going to be good, if it’s like 0.5 turn or even straight, forget about it man it just slips every time.
I did some investigating today and have convinced myself that a Uni Knot and a Nail Knot involve the exact same loop and turns. The only difference is how the loop and turns are dressed as they are drawn closed and seated.
Below I have attempted to summarize my findings. Wow! Trying to explain it in words is really tough. I'm not sure I'm using the correct terminology in the correct way. When I have a chance, I will create some illustrations to show what I am trying to describe. My motto is: "A picture is worth a thousand words, and a video is worth a thousand pictures." That's why I'm really enjoying your videos. They make it so much easier to understand.
In the finished Nail Knot, the tag and standing ends are relatively straight as they traverse through the outer wraps. In the finished Uni Knot, the tag and standing ends twist as they traverse through the outer wraps.
To form a Uni Knot: a loop is formed in the standing part, the tag end is wrapped around the standing part by feeding it in and out of the loop a specified number of times, the standing end is held, and tension is applied to the tag end to close the knot. As tension is applied to the tag end, the wraps of the tag end will twist with the standing end, and the loop will shrink. As the loop becomes smaller and smaller, the twists in the tag and standing ends will become tighter and tighter. As the loop continues to close, the force necessary to tighten the twists in the tag and standing ends will overcome the force required to twist the other section of the loop. Now, as the loop continues to shrink, the tag and standing ends will untwist, and be replaced by twist in the other section of the loop. The twisting in the other section of the loop will cause it to wrap around the the untwisting section of the tag and standing ends. This twisting and untwisting motion will continue until the knot seats, or the twisting and untwisting forces balance. In either case, the final knot will exhibit some number of inner twist and outer wraps.
To form a Nail Knot, follow the exact same procedure as that used to form the Uni Knot, but as the Knot is closed, dress it so that all the inner twists convert to outer wraps. As was indicated when describing the closing of the Uni Knot, there will be a point when the twisting and untwisting forces balance, and the conversion of inner twist to outer wraps will cease. At this time, it is necessary to intervene and apply the necessary force to ensure the remaining twists in the tag and standing ends transition to outer wraps. When no more inner twists remain, the knot can be drawn closed and seated.
An interesting ramification of this theory is that many different knots can form even though the same basic loops and turns are made with the tag end. The knot that ultimately forms will depend on how the loop and turns are dressed as they are drawn closed and seated. The final knot can exhibit:
1. A standing end that remains straight as it traverses through the center of the tag end wraps, with the unwrapped section of the loop traversing on the outside of the knot, straight from one side to the other.
2. Any ratio of inner twists and external wraps (Uni Knot).
3. No inner twist and only external wraps (Nail Knot).
I am curious as to which configuration yields the greatest strength. Based on what you presented in your video, it is definitely not configuration 1. You indicated this is a very weak knot. I recall you said that this configuration typically forms when the knot is closed by holding the tag end and applying tension to the standing end, as opposed to holding the standing end and applying tension to the tag end. But I wonder, could configuration 3 (the Nail Knot) be the optimal configuration?
I look forward to hearing your thoughts.
@@stevelaxton6971 Hi Steve, could you clarify the Nail Knot that you are describing uses a tube or a additional doubled up piece of line to pull the tag end thru centre? This is the Nail Knot I am familiar with and has been used in Fly Fishing for an eternity, Its normally used to connect Backing on the Fly Line as it binds in really well. Did you look at my WSFK video on the Uni Knot as I went over these two different variations in all the testing. Let me know, might be worth continuing on that thread once you have seen that video. I have also done a complete Overview for the Uni Knot, if you search Uni Knot Unwrapped this may be of interest also. Tightlines.
I also smiled at TH-cam alogorithm, I had to approve your comments as I think the thread or your response was too long. 🤣😂 I really do enjoy talking about knots its crazy how they all vary so much in overall strength.
@@toitfishing Hi Warren, the Nail Knot I am referring to is typically tied with the assistance of a tool. It is very difficult, but not impossible, to tie without one. The name "Nail Knot" is unique in that it refers to the tool used to aid in tying the knot. There are multiple tying methods. One requires the tag end to be fed back through the center of the outer wraps after they're made (see www.animatedknots.com/nail-knot). A feat most easily accomplished using a tube, doubled up piece of line, or other similar tool. The second method is to perform the same procedure as you would to create a Uni Knot, but then manually form the outer wraps by unwinding the inner twist (see th-cam.com/video/2rPpr5s-c-s/w-d-xo.html). Ultimately, the Nail Knot is a form of slip knot that can be used in the same situations as a Uni Knot. For example, see www.justsportfishing.com/nail_loop_knot.html.
I figured there was some issue submitting my previous comment. I did not receive any error or warning when I submitted it. But when I didn't get a response to my comment, I investigated. I have several Google accounts. I was able to see my comment when using the account I used to submit it, but I was unable to see my comment when using my other Google accounts. For lack of a better option, I tried resubmitting my comment. Again, no error or warning, but I still couldn't see my comment when using my other accounts. So I figured you or Google must have to approve my submission before it becomes visible to other users. It would be nice if the TH-cam app would give me some kind of feedback as to what was happening😖.
Thanks for your help. Tight lines.
Duncan knot is named after the canadian who invented it.
(Uk) grinner knot or universal knot.
Hi Phil, you should take a look at the Ashley book of knots if you are interested in historic knots and where and who designed certain knots its really interesting. He has references in there and snippets of books dating back almost 400 years. On page 204 he refers to the Scaffold knot and the Gallows knot which is shown in the Diderot's encyclopedia dated 1762. Which is in fact the the Universal knot we all refer to today. One of many interests of mine is to see how these knot names change over time depending on the industry or people using it. For example a scaffolder may call it a XYZ knot and Farmer may call it an ABC knot and then confusion steps in and a fisherman in Australia outback calls it a EFG knot. I also spoke about this a little in one of my other UNI knot videos the "Unwrapped Series" and yes I refererred to the Duncan Knot and the Grinner Knot.
Tightlines and have a great New Years
When I pull the standing-end, the knot slides against the hook and gets tight.
When I pull the tag-end, the knot stays tight but slides away from the hook, opening the loop.
Is this normal for the UniKnot?
Morning Jake, I ended up doing a video a while back discussing this exact topic, take a look here. th-cam.com/video/rs2BB7ID9Yg/w-d-xo.html
Basically yes both your statements are correct but I would definitely only use the tag end cinch as that ensure the knot is cinched correctly and allows for the overwrapping. Once this is done you can then pull the standing end to slide the knot down or nudge the knot down with your fingers, extra bit of saliva does not hurt here as it protects the line especially for mono. You will find braid tends to slip down easily to the eyelet. Tightlines and thanks for reaching out.