You forgot a potentially more likely magical element: Jeyne is the great-granddaughter of Maggy the Frog, so it's possible she inherited some of her powers to see the future.
All the prologues have magic. Maybe since 90% of castamere is underwater we'll finally see fish people. Why would the Westerling family let Jeyne give birth possibly if they were secretly working with the Lannisters and giving her moon tea?? Maybe the moon tea is actually some fish BS. Jeyne will give birth to a fish baby.
I love the idea that there will be a Stark succession crisis between Jon (backed by Robb's will/age/resume), Rickon (backed by the Manderlys), Sansa (backed by Little Finger and the Vale) and Robb's child (backed by standard succession rules)
The supporters of the child would just say the will is invalid as it was written when Robb assumed he had no natural heir. Looking at both the history of Westeros and medieval Europe irl, the standard "rules" of succession are constantly overlooked or manipulated to suit a claim
@@leohoffmanofficial1541 The theory goes that Robb released Jon from his oath and legitimized him in the will. He was rather lacking in viable options at the time.
Jeyne is more dangerous than Edmure because even if she wasnt pregnant with Robbs child, she could just have a kid, say it was Robbs, and potentially rally a northern army to restart the war. Great video btw.
@@QuinnTheGM haha good point, we never see Tywins perspective, but imagine the sheer stress of losing the mill to a fuckup like Edmure was slowly driving Tywin mad, which drove him to sentencing Tyrion to death, getting himself killed, and eventually the downfall of house Lannister, all because Ser Gregor could take 50 arrows to the armor, but cant take one FUCKING mill from Edmure.
@@thecockerel86 if Edmure just chilled in Riverrun, like he was ordered, Tywin would be dead, and Stannis would be king. I love Edmure, but his need to prove his masculinity against the Lannisters cost his family everything.
@@chrisrubin6445 that wouldnt have happend if Robb Just fuckin explained his strategy to his most important vasall instead of just saying: trust me bro What if Tywin himself rode by with ten men? Should Edmure still follow a command just because Robb said it?
Jaime also emphasizes this when he shows the White Book to Lorys in White Sword Tower, he points to the arms of Criston Cole, which Lorys doesn’t recognize, and says “They called him kingmaker.”
If this chapter really is from the prespective of a maester, we'll likely see him planning to arrange for a convenient "craddle death", before being twarthed. We already know maesters are not above such things
Oh i hate and love that idea itd make me so mad but i could see a maester doing that. And to catch him and thwart man that would be great writing. Sounds like something george could do
I really hope not, or I hope that there is a tiny sliver of Cat still in there that realizes what she's become and her part in the death of her house to begin with. She didn't seem remarkably self-aware in the early books, so I kind of doubt she regrets all that much. My opinion is likely biased, but I've found precious few reasons to like Cat. I've always figured Brienne or Arya would kill Stoneheart when she gets too far gone.
I like the idea of Jaime finding new purpose in protecting Robb's heir since he failed in his first vow to Catelyn. It would also give him a plausible reason to end up in the North when the Others move south (in the show he was just sort of there because Cersei pissed him off, it seemed a bit random). Although I think first he's going to be reluctantly involved in Catelyn's revenge against the Freys (Red Wedding 2.0 - probably at the wedding of Daven Lannister with a Frey girl).
I think that Jaime will come back to honor his promise by protecting the Starks, but only to meet up with Howland and learn about Jon. With Jon it would be like his purpose renewed.
@@praveenloganathan7495 that would be so cool to see jaime become a true knight of the kings guard for the rightful king and redeem his honor. Even if he has to die let that happen
I also think him not being able to save rhaegars kids would influence his decision in potentially protecting Robb’s child if he decides to. As a way of I failed once I will not fail this time The child would be his redemption as a kingsguard.
Here's a random theory: What if Jeyne Westerling's child comes out stillborn, and is resurrected by Lady Stoneheart, the same way that she was resurrected by Beric Dondarrion?
Supposedly he’s written about 1100/1500 pages. He’s probably written himself into several corners and doesn’t want to take shortcuts to crawl out. Plus he’s old and his mind can’t be as sharp as it was a decade ago.
This chapter sounds perfectly like his styles, planting even more seeds for more messy plot lines, even though the garden has become overgrown at this point. The trimming/tying/finishing part is always hard and he is probably facing difficulties there, on top of trying to improve upon the show's ending (which probably contains some details that he originally intended).
He has more than enough written to release half of it like he did with Dance of Dragons. There's no reason why he can't it would quite the fans and buy him a little more time.
I believe the Jayne Jamie saw was actually her sister, and they kept hidden the real Jayne because she is in fact pregnant. We are told there are two Westerling girls, we see them in book 3, but in book 4 we only see one
Melisandre really did drink the poison Maester Cressen put in the wine. She was protected by R'hllor and so she didn't die. It was a show of power and she knew that magic was back in the world even if she didn't know how.
It probably wasn't R'holler that saved her. In one of the other books (ASOS I think), it identifies a gem/charm that can protect the wearer from poisons, Melisandre is wearing a jewel around her neck. Mel commonly uses non R'holler related magics to exagerate her power, and make her religious message more convincing.
it's her shadowbinder magic, which is not from the Red God (arguably against it). The three people who use Rhllor powers have a lot of similarities (Moqurro, Thoros and Melisandre) but Mel has specific powers that the other two don't..
Melisandre has been mentioned to exaggerate her magical power, Cressen took a nap right before hand so someone could have easily swapped the poison or something
@@davidjones272 I will admit that her stone does glow brighter in this scene, but it does many other times she uses magic. Don't forget that she truly didn't believe until she saw Stannis in her flames, which just happened to be right after Dany's dragons hatched. It's the same time that Thoras first saves Berrick. IIRC in one of her chapters it says that all priests/ess of R'hllor know how to make flames of different colors using potions and powders but that she doesn't need to do that anymore.
I appreciate the theory. It's a nice one! My only comment refers to an aside you made about "John Snow's impending resurrection." I think most TH-camrs are expecting a resurrection of John Snow far too soon in the book - kind of like how it happened almost instantaneously in the show. I think John will stay in Ghost for a healthy chunk of the book before someone realizes that John is in Ghost and knows how to connect him to his body in the icy cells.
He can’t stay in Ghost for too long, though. Jojen tells us if a wharg is inside of his animal for too long he can lose himself entirely and forget he was ever human. So how fast does someone with no human body to jump back into degrade? We see this happen in the books with Orell. Jon kills him, he inhabits the bird, that’s around the time when Jon first goes with the wildlings and ends up meeting Mance Rayder, and by the time of the battle of the wall Varamyr has taken the eagle. And he can still feel Orell inside the bird although barely anything of him remains apart from his hatred of Jon. That isn’t all that long of a timespan to entirely forget that you were ever human. So it is dangerous if he’s in there for too long.
@@laileleneirose7966 That's a good point. However, I wonder if there's some variation in that depending on the animal one wargs into. A bird would have a smaller brain and is more different from a human than a direwolf would be. Also, there's the possibility that Snow will be altered by his experience inhabiting Ghost for a long time.
@@bandoogiemanzit simply has to , and GRRM is not one to subvert something like this just because it’s the overall consensus. I’m sure he understands part of the reason he’s been “figured out” is because he’s taken too much time between books , allowing the readers to become incredibly proficient at understanding his writing style as well as overall plotbeats and their respective patterns. Now jsut because it’s obvious that Jon will come back doesn’t mean it still won’t be amazing in the books , I have a lot of faith in GRRMs prose so I believe it will be a goosebumps on your arms moment
I really liked this one, and the idea of Jaime renewing his oath in order to protect Robb's heir? That would be amazing. Don't know if that would actually but I now hope it does
You mentioned that AFFC is your favorite book in the series, and I can honestly say that I agree. It feels like the book that GRRM wanted to write all along, with the previous books just being context
I've been listening to the books on audible after not reading them for almost 5 years and I felt the same. Going from storm to feast felt like such a massive step up in terms of quality and it's currently my favourite book in the series. However, that could change once I've finished dance as the trend so far has been that every book is a substantial step up from the previous book.
I'm still only 200 pages in AFFC but so far I've found it kind of wholesome? I know dark things still occur but I've had a good time reading it so far, it's like a well deserved break from all the chaos
This video was really fun. Just what I needed today! Just one question: if Lady Stoneheart is desperate for an alternative heir to Robb's legacy, wouldn't she want to keep the Maester/Midwife alive as a witness? Without him, isn't the baby just a baby, with only the mother and grandmother's word that he/she is a highly convenient heir to the North?
My thought is that she’d keep the mother alive. She really has no reason to kill Jeyne, especially since that would make her a kinslayer. Especially if Tom of Sevens had passed along the information about Sybell’s betrayal.
@@QuinnTheGM lol if winds take right after dance how is it possible for her to not be visible pregnant in feast and being in labor in winds a concerned citizen your theory pour water all over my house
Why I like this theory is that it gives Lady Stoneheart a reason to go north (she’d want the heir to return to be raised in the safer North). That way when the Others come we can see her pair up against them 😉 And some resolution with Jon.
you could see the heir as a parallel to danys story. It was clear that Dany would have to fight for the iron throne. But then we learned that she will have to fight her nephew Aegon too. Jon will likely have to fight the Boltons for Winterfell. And the heir will be his nephew, his Aegon. Stoneheart would use him to attack Jon's claim. So Jon like Dany would have to face of his nephew
@@davidlewis5312 It's a bit hard to know the ins and outs of this possible scenario because many players could be involved. If Jon captures Winterfell/the North from the Boltons, Lady stoneheart might want to kill the deceiving Bastard who usurped the throne of her son. Or Davos finds Rickon and Jon has to choose who to support. His brother who is used by Stannis or his presumable Nephew who is used by Stoneheart Not to mention how the northern Lords, the Wildlings or the white Walkers might influence the situation. I hope it's as harmonic as you think. But I see a powder keg in the making
@@davidlewis5312our jon is likely to do that yes, but what about the vengeful rageful Jon that's gonna be born in winds? I could see him thinking winterfell is his rightful seat considering he saved it from the Boltons in this scenario
@@juliezwick8930 Yea that would be cool and I think it’s possible, but I think the condition would be that she has to marry a Waynewood or Royce from the branch that has Stark blood to solidify her claim.
Robb signed a decree the legitimized Jon and made him his heir (children with Jeyne notwithstanding). The problem is that the people holding the letter are either dead or unknown- including the captain of a ship called the Myraham. We know Maege Mormont and Galbart Glover are in the Neck looking for Howland Reed and holding Eddard's bones
Little late to the party but I could see this going in an even darker direction. I can see the ambush by lady stoneheart happening, but instead of the child being born, I believe it will be still born due to the stress and effects of moontea. However what if they create a fire wright out of the child, like stoneheart herself. Then you have the zombie stark line happening which echos mythology at the wall.
Understandable... I believe Jeyne is pregnant with Robbs heir as well. Stoneheart is going to end up with them in the Riverlands. I believe when Brienne brings Jaime to SH he's going to see Forley and all his party hanged and Edmure, and Jenye with the BWB
@@QuinnTheGM This alteration between "science" and "the beyond" in the prologues of course isn't the ice and fire of the series name, but it is one of the running conficts in the series. There are seven books, I guess we get a 4th non-maester prologue for Dream, maybe "the beyond" wins?
Fun idea. Love the video. Love the Stoneheart idea, but for her motivation to name a new heir. If time hasn’t progressed long enough from the Red Wedding & Robb’s death, it sure hasn’t progressed from the Pink Letter & Jon’s death. Who would send the news out, and why would the news of the death of the Commander of the Night Watch matter to anyone in the south? It could be coincidence that they meet , but that doesn’t seem like George’s vibe. Keep them coming
I really like this summary, thanks so much for putting this all together. I have possible alternate take on the relation between the twist and the prior Jeyne Westerling intro'd in F&B. What if the twist is that the child *is* poisoned successfully? I think it's okay that it completely echoes Maegor's Jeyne, because F&B isn't part of the main series. The dots are still far enough apart that it's still satisfying if the reader connects them, and deduces current Jeyne's fate. Meanwhile, it works as a twist internal to the prologue and for setting up the broader narrative. We get to spend the prologue with the rising tension of "Is there really a secret child of Robb about to enter this story and matter?" only to have it dashed by outside forces greater than the conspirator, which fits with the other prologues. And it means LSH no longer has a way of avoiding Jon as heir. I think her story *needs* a reckoning with Jon before she passes. Which is why Robb's will and the unfinished business for which she lingers needed to be tied up with Jon, and his place in house Stark. So I think giving her an out in the form of Robb's trueborn child undermines the Ned/Cat/Jon tension, and the story as a whole. But forcing her hand right from the cold open? That's complete "human heart in conflict with itself" stuff right there.
A maester performing a birth is something I didn't think of. Very cool! I thought it would be a Blackfish pov rescuing the Westerling troupe and dying, while Edmure and Jeyne do some rendezvous with another pov later. Or Edmure is pov and dies and Brynden goes off with Jeyne.
Interesting take! Hope we get to find out soon! Another cool little detail about prologues forshadowing later events is that Cressen's poison from Book 2 is later used in Book 3 during the purple wedding.
ooh I love this actually. seeing unCat holding her first grandchild would be *chef's kiss*. also it's nice to see a variation of the "jeyne is pregnant" theory that doesn't involve the jeyne that jaime met being an imposter 😅
It came up in research that Martin confirmed the description not matching was an error, and that that was corrected in future printings of the book, so I definitely don’t think she’s an imposter lol
I think you are entirely right. I also think this would dovetail nicely as a way to get Jaime and Brienne north. Let's assume this happens, Red Wedding 2.0, etc... I could see Robb's baby getting entrusted to Jaime and Brienne (maybe others, maybe or maybe not with Stoneheart depending on if she lives that long) to take north to Winterfell, possibly after hearing of Stannis, Jon, both, who knows taking the castle from the Boltons. It would also fit nicely with their oath to find Sansa and Arya and keep them safe. Sure, Robb's kid isn't either, but they WOULD be a Stark child.
Another great video, you really are advancing and expanding and on the theories that have been rattling around for years, you’re doing R’hllor’s work brother, keep the faith.
I think that the blackfish organised with Edmure when he escaped, he could tail the travelers. maybe he helps Jeyne and Edmure escape maybe killing the maester in the escape or bringing him with them to deliver the baby. that would leave them open to head north and create conflict with Stannis after the battle on the ice and picking up Ned's bones and Robb's will, maybe even meeting lady stoneheart then?
Great theory, and definitely viable. I guess I'd always thought that the prologue would be about Jon's resurrection, as George has so much to get through.
Interesting that you didn’t bring up the popular theory that the “Jayne” that Jaime meets was not actually Jayne. The prologue could still feature her if she escaped with the Blackfish.
I didn’t bring that up because the portions of the novel that that theory relies upon were revised by Martin in later releases of AFFC. He specifically said that that was Jeyne, and that he made a mistake.
Love your theory! I appreciate you sharing. It makes perfect sense to me and I think it’s extremely interesting! Have not heard anything like it before.
I like this! I struggle to think of what jamie will do until his ultimate confrontation with cersei. This makes a great deal of sense, and for a much more interesting prologue! GJ!
My view on this theory is Stoneheart gives her life as Beric did to revive a stillborn continuing the cycle Thoros accidently began and will probably go on. Or she forces Thoros to start sacrificing other people for this purpose which seems even more likely.
I think it is important to note that when Tyanna admitted to poisoning Maegor’s unborn children, this was something she said under torture. So it’s very possible Maegor couldn’t have kids. There are some pretty interesting theories as to why.
Maegor was either naturally sterile or was made sterile after his trial by seven. Virtually every character tortured in the series gives a false confession, it's a major theme. The Blue Bard confesses to sleeping with the queen, despite obviously never having done so.
Great video, and easy and clear voice to hear. Would love a timeline video of major points from got to dod, be a great recap video for when wow finally comes out 👍
The amount of work and research you put into this video is amazing! All very well done and makes you think how this will all go down in TWOW. And so excited to see if your theories are correct
I would love if something like this was the prologue for TWOW. If I may add a wrinkle to the theory? The prologues also add hints to future developments in the books. Like how the prologue of ADWD hints at Jon warging into Ghost when the Night’s Watch betrays him. If Jeyne were to give birth in the prologue, what if she were to die due to the birth? George RR Martin has said he’s going to reveal a huge twist in TWOW that apparently the fans have already guessed. My money on that twist is that R+L=J will be confirmed to the reader in TWOW. Jeyne could be used in the prologue to be an echo of Lyanna; secretly pregnant with an heir, only to die birthing said heir.
Although the theory of Jayne baby is a good one and could very well be true, Thats not what the Jaime and Catelyn (and Brienne!) arcs should center on. I understand it seems as if it could be a small mercy for Catelyn, to presumably see and hold Robs baby and continuation of the house, after everything she suffered, but there is a far greater reunion coming that has been preparing for five books now. Everyone expects that Stoneheart will soon meet her final end. But the whole saga cannot end without Catelyn being reunited with at least one of her daughters. And I would not be surprised if there is much more of Catelyn in the Lady Stoneheart - then most of the fandom assumes. Sansa is as near as anyone could want in this point of the story. Vale is right next to the Riverlands. Also, there is only one immediate true course for Jaime and that is to find Sansa and unite her with Catelyn, therefore fulfilling his Oath. That strand of the story cannot end with just some "new baby" as pity reward, or remain unfulfilled. There also must be such a reunion before Stoneheart meets her final end, as one of the major payback moments that the story itself is due, after all this time. This will not happen just because it would be nice. It is going to happen because several major, important plot strands and characters are all converging together to a specific area of the kingdoms. Sansa is close. The Vale neighbours the Riverlands. Jaime is there now - with his sole remaining Oath is precisely finding Sansa and or Arya - and returning them to Catelyn. Brienne is with him, Brienne who is carrying the sword named no less than the "Oathkeeper" - which is actually reforged half of bloody Eddard Stark sword - given to her to specifically find Sansa and or Arya - and is sworn to specifically find either by both Catelyn and Jaime! AND there is a huge Monk in that same very area! A Monk who KNOWS Arya, and who knows and has guarded Sansa, who might just have some feelings about all of that. On the other side, Littlefinger will need to establish control over the Riverlands too, in addition to Vale. But the Riverlands are now owned by the Brotherhood. Which not many realize just yet, but will get informed when the next wedding happens. And the best thing of all is - Sansa has been found. Discovered. By a small, diminutive, ordinary hedge knight. You know, the kind of knights that sleep in bushes. And forests. As to how Jaime will eventually resolve the situation with Cersei or be involved in that, I would really wish it turns out to be something different than is what most commonly expected. I dont take any of the so-called "prophecies" to have any serious impact on actual events in the whole Saga, except through people believing in some and then behaving to make them "real". Mostly with disastrous consequences. There are far more interesting things to worry about in the immediate continuation of the story, first. And this confluence of forces, characters and long coming paybacks swirling around the Riverlands and the Vale should be as glorious as any other major clash of the saga, if Martin can still write anything good.
Jeyne was accompanied by 400 man guard with a seasoned commander. We can rule out option 1. The second option is possible all though it could be a band led by the Blackfish. The last thing we hear about Stoneheart is that she is somewhere near the Neck, supposedly. I'm leaning more towards a party led by the Blackfish all though some of his men might be part of the Brotherhood.
Good point about the Blackfish! I’d considered that as an option when scripting this video, but wanted to lean into the potential magical elements a bit more.
@@QuinnTheGM The problem that I have with the wolf pack is that I don't think they'd attack such a large group of armed men. The issue that I have with Stoneheart is that she is already involved with whatever is going on with Jaimie and Brienne, so she couldn't be two places at once.
Yes I loved the idea of Jamie story with lady stoneheart being interrupted by a scout or someone seeing the Jeyen camp and SH shifting her focus from Jamie to her.
Slight correction; in the prologue to book 2 Maester Cressen doesn't "die due to strange magic or slight of hand or whatever it is Mellisandre does." He dies because he poisoned a cup of wine which he offers to Melisandre, he drinks from it first to "prove" it's safe, she also drinks but doesn't die because her magic nullifies the poison.
@@giorgosgkialpis1394 I might be misremembering. I think in the show the ruby on her necklace lights up when she drinks it so I thought that was magic purification but I'm not sure if it was the same in the book
@@TRDPaul In the book the ruby on her necklace catches the light. It isn't specified whether it's glowing magically or not, though. Also, Melisandre drinks from the cup first. She even says to Cressen that it isn't too late to pour out the cup before drinking it. Then she drinks most of the wine, leaving only a mouthful for Cressen to drink.
Excellent video! Truly top tier theory crafting in the SOIAF community! Unfortunately, I think grrm is more likely to get the babe poisoned still than let it be born. But I love your optimism and would prefer it!
Given the similarities to Anne Boleyn (Henry VIII's second wife, also accused of witchcraft) I would think that the original Jeyne Westerling was entirely innocent. Given it's the misogynistic Maesters that write the histories, traducing the Queen would be entirely in keeping with their world view. Though if we are going with Robb's Jeyne being modelled on Anne Boleyn, I'd bet on Jon's surprise heir being a girl.
the Northerners have a tradition where if there are no male heirs, they marry the daughter heir to a man and their child will carry on the family name and not the man's. This is suggested as a solution to Lady Hornwood who has no male heirs or alternatives- and Ramsey forces her to marry him and then starves her to death to get her land. Similarly Alys Karstark is married to the Magnar of Thenn to avoid her uncle Cregan stealing her seat (although her brother Harrion is possibly alive).
@@SantomPh Also, that's the situation with House Mormont - Maege Mormont's daughters carry the family name Mormont even though their father (possibly Tormund) does not carry the same name
@@aleksandarnikolov3182 Of course Tormund is of the Free Folk and has no name in the Westerosi tradition. And he is the seemingly fond father of several Free Folk children. And marriage seems a different concept among them, except for the Thenns, among whom leadership passes through recognized families as is does in Westeros.
As far as the magical aspect is concerned, I agree that it would be Cat and not Nymeria mainly because even numbered prologues usually have fire magic while odd numbered ones have ice magic. Warging is ice magic while Stoneheart was brought back by fire magic.
This was a good theory but I want Jon to be the heir and at least king of the North at the end but I could live if Robb’s son becomes king of the North at the end with Sansa and or Jon as his regent
This isn't lotr,jon is a badtard and has no claim to the north,no lords will ever rally behind because of the superstitious nature imposed on bastard,that they are rebellious, two true born children of lord Eddard are still alive reckon is probably in the hands of the manderlys ,bran is alive so image sansa and Arya who all have a better claim than jon I get that the fan base loves the northerners and want them to get their independence but should all the kingdoms be united if they hope to face their common enemy. The winds of winter will have parallel rebirths with jon literally getting resurrected and dany turning to violence(not madness),to fire and blood many of our characters are going to being head strong in upholding their ideologies ,we are decently going to see more nuanced characters again this is lotr
I really enjoyed your video, gave good details and good ideas of what may happened. The best thing is that you avoid a lot of tinfoil theories that you find in other theory videos, where they make mountains out of mole hills, with one small line turning into a convoluted 20 minute video.
1:22 Cressen poisoned the cup and then shares it with Melisandre. The magic protects her from poison, it doesn’t poison Cressen instead of her. He’d have died either way.
Out there idea. Rob was a warg, it is pretty well accepted that he was killed twice, once as man and once as wolf. But in the DoD prologue we see that a warg can still skinchange after his physical body has died , Sixskins and Thistle. What if before he could be killed as Grey Wind he instinctively tried to go back to his body but as it was already dead his spirit latched onto the only "piece" of him that was still alive.
Maybe it was a fever dream, but I recall reading an excerpt of Edmure and Jeyne attempting to escape via ropes down a balcony with her mother witnessing it, they are found out and crossbowmen loose bolts on them.
Great video man, a lot of these points really make sense. Do you have any theories on the importantes of Val? I feel like she'll be significant in the books.
Here's another possibility for the supernatural element. 1. We know Sybil Spicer has connections to magic and specifically eastern magic (she is a descendent of Maggie the Frog, and that fact seems significant). So... 2. What if the Jeyne that Jaime met in Feast wasn't actually Jeyne, but was someone else wearing a glamor given to her by her mother? In this version, Sybil is a triple agent who actually DOES want her daughter to be the mother of a king, but fears Lannister retribution, so has to protect her daughter through magical means. 3. This explains why she is not visibly pregnant. She is in fact someone else, and the real Jeyne has been hidden somewhere to give birth in secret. 4. And the secondary thematic purpose it would serve is further explaining how glamors work, which is obviously going to be important given the direction of Melisandre's arc.
Great video! I do feel the plot twist isn't really of the caliber one would expect. He said it would involve 3-4 characters. Jayne having a child and meeting Lady Firewight is two, but something is missing. Sure Jamie and Brienne are most closely linked, or Uncle Brynden. Or Brother Edmure rescuing Jayne, maybe doing a child swap. Definitely some great possibilities. I don't feel GRRM will choose a maester just because previous books with even numbers were from maester(ish) points of view. Possible but more cause they are grey mice sneaking around being anonymous - perfect for prologue POV - but not because it's bound by a pattern, that's not how GRRM writes. But who the POV is is possible less relevant. More interesting what the plot twist maybe. If it's about Jayne then it's gotta be about her pregnancy. But maybe she isn't the protagonist in the plot twist..... I don't know... can't wait
King Robb's heir has not been confirmed to the reader. till such time, Prince Brandon Stark is his undisputed next in line. Also Catelyn did not see the will but she witnessed its signing.
I thought that Cressen essentially killed himself thinking that Mel would drink the poison more readily if he was also drinking the same wine, but she just didn't die
i think it will definitely be through the POV of someone in the BWB. The prologue POVs always tell us something about the coming story, AGOt has Will introducing the nights watch and the overarching threat of the wight walkers. ACOK introduces Stannis and the Baratheons in Storms End. ASOS introduces the idea of a mutiny stirring in the nights watch. AFFC introduces much about oldtown, the maesters and the citadel, also hinting at the faceless men. ADWD introduces us to a lot about the wildings, but also mostly warging/skinchanging and how it affects the warger. I think the pattern of north of the wall and then maester/citadel pov, is just a coincidence i dont think GRRM is working off that pattern as a guide. And as we know Jeyne Westerling is involved in the prologue, so likely it revolves around some sort of plot to free her. That, or it is set in Casterly Rock and she is just there, although i doubt that. If it was from the point of view of Ser Forley Prester i cant think of anything that he could give us any background of so im not sure if its him. Same with Edmure Tully, he cant really give us any background on anything. Some povs that WOULD give us background would be anyone in the BWB. They could tell us a lot about how they worked, before and after Lady Stoneheart, they could foreshadow some of the BWB plans, they could hint at the story that LS will get up to in the book. Another POV that could give us background on something is Ser Ilyn Payne, now im not sure if he is with the Westerling escort (Jaime takes him to riverrun and then from what i remember he just sort of disappears although i might be forgetting something). Ilyn could give us background on Aerys, Tywin, and a whole bunch of stuff that is floating around in his head that he cant tell anyone (because he cant speak). And since all the prolgogue POV characvters die at the end of their chapters, it seems likely that Aryas wolfpack comes in at the last second and kills him and (Ilyn is on her list). Although i think it is more likely that it is from the pov of a BWB person (Lemmoncloak, Tom of Sevens, a new character? could be anyone). It seems to make the most sense.
@2:01 Chett is confirmed to have been killed by the army of the dead and reanimated as a Wight later in the book when he is one of the Wights who attacks Sam and Gilly before they are saved by Coldhands
I really can’t get behind the “TWOW prologue must be a Maester because 2 and 4 were Maesters” idea that yourself and Preston seem to have. A: AFFC was an acolyte, not a maester, and the entire context of the occupation of the POV character was different from how it was utilized in ACOK. B: Why does the fact that two maester-related characters were even-numbered books hold any weight? Both epilogues were in odd-numbered books, yet, not all odd-numbered books have epilogues. So that sort of almost transitive property of evidence supporting TWOW prologue’s POV being a maester doesn’t apply when you consider the series as a whole. Also, Chet was more-or-less the Watch’s version of an acolyte, being the maester’s personal steward, in the same way Jon was commander-in-training as Mormont’s personal steward. So wouldn’t that mean that 2, 3, and 4 all had Maester-adjacent POVs? Because again, Pate was not a Maester. He was literally Oldtown Chet.
Not gonna lie. I desperately hope that Jeyne is pregnant and does give birth to a healthy baby. Although I do want Jon Snow to become more of a king-like leader and figure after his resurrection. I am hoping that R + L = is true and Jon and Dany do get together eventually.
Maybe the North can keep its own kingdom again and robbs heir can be the King. Jon and his brothers son would be so sweet to have together and we need some sweetness
Having any 1 of the battles to look forward to in TWOW would be great but instead we get 4!!! So well done, every single battle has intrigue, special circumstances, unique tactics, and plot relevance. I can't wait to see how these actually turn out.
I feel like the community could write a good portion of the winds of winter at this point. It wouldn’t be as good but we could be further along than Martian at this point.
Jeyne very well could be in the westerlands by the start of book six. Yes feast and dance take place simultaneously, but dance goes beyond feast. Best example is Jaime who ended feast at river run (if I'm recalling it correctly) after seeing the westerlings leave for the westerlands. Dance has him at Raventree. Given I don't think we see him leave riverrun at the end of Feast, there's a good chance the Westerling arrives around the time Jaime arrives at Raventree. Even if they hadn't yet, Martin very easily can have the prologue be a few days weeks or a month or two ahead of where Jaime left off.
You know, Robb having a Son would actually allow the other fitting end to happen as well. Many theorize that Sansa will become Lady of Winterfell, but she probably won't marry again, being desillioned by the prospect. That way, she could raise her nephew, be lady of winterfell and the line could still continue....
If a resurrected Jon married Jayne Westerling and raised Robb's son to be the new king in the north, the manderleys and stannis help Jon retake Winterfell, and Sansa betrays Littlefinger in solidarity with her family. All of the threads competing for control of the north would be tied up nicely
What if the child is stillborn from the moon tea stil, messing it up, but Stoneheart resurrects it. This fits with the supernatural thing generally happening at the end of the prologue and ties into resurrection. Fits with the older Jeyne Westerling example too.
Greta vid. Yes, Robb's Will and Jamie's (possible) death/rebirth are two super interesting points I'm still unsure of. Seems late in the story to introduce a baby/heir for Robb. Plus, Bran and Rickon are still around, but the mere suggestion/potential of it may be enough to alter the story too. Jamie's "true knight" arc seems on track, but I'm not sure if he'll get to "ride off into the sunset somehow"(be on Sansa's Queen's Guard with Brienne, Hound, etc...that would be a motley crew), protect Jayne, or if he'll go back to KL to die/kill Cersei, so they can "leave the world the way they came into it." That's what makes him and Theon so interesting, they could both still fail epically, if they fall back into their old ways. Cheers.
You forgot a potentially more likely magical element: Jeyne is the great-granddaughter of Maggy the Frog, so it's possible she inherited some of her powers to see the future.
She’s definitely maggys granddaughter
I’ve read the books so many times. Jaime confirms in FFC Maggy is Jayne’s grandma . He calls her a half mad witch
She was in the right spot at the right time.
All the prologues have magic. Maybe since 90% of castamere is underwater we'll finally see fish people. Why would the Westerling family let Jeyne give birth possibly if they were secretly working with the Lannisters and giving her moon tea?? Maybe the moon tea is actually some fish BS. Jeyne will give birth to a fish baby.
@Your Grace _ lll
I love the idea that there will be a Stark succession crisis between Jon (backed by Robb's will/age/resume), Rickon (backed by the Manderlys), Sansa (backed by Little Finger and the Vale) and Robb's child (backed by standard succession rules)
Wouldn't Robb's will immediately disqualify his potential child in favor of Jon?
@@Ancor_Vantian Jon took the black, so wouldn't that disqualify him from legally inheriting?
@@leohoffmanofficial1541well, technically his watch ended with his death. Being resurrected may nulify his Night’s Watch oath
The supporters of the child would just say the will is invalid as it was written when Robb assumed he had no natural heir. Looking at both the history of Westeros and medieval Europe irl, the standard "rules" of succession are constantly overlooked or manipulated to suit a claim
@@leohoffmanofficial1541 The theory goes that Robb released Jon from his oath and legitimized him in the will. He was rather lacking in viable options at the time.
Jeyne is more dangerous than Edmure because even if she wasnt pregnant with Robbs child, she could just have a kid, say it was Robbs, and potentially rally a northern army to restart the war. Great video btw.
I see your point and raise you that Edmure won a mill!
Thank you!
@@QuinnTheGM haha good point, we never see Tywins perspective, but imagine the sheer stress of losing the mill to a fuckup like Edmure was slowly driving Tywin mad, which drove him to sentencing Tyrion to death, getting himself killed, and eventually the downfall of house Lannister, all because Ser Gregor could take 50 arrows to the armor, but cant take one FUCKING mill from Edmure.
@@chrisrubin6445 Great theory with one tiny flaw;:Edmure isn't a fuck up #WeStanTheFish
@@thecockerel86 if Edmure just chilled in Riverrun, like he was ordered, Tywin would be dead, and Stannis would be king. I love Edmure, but his need to prove his masculinity against the Lannisters cost his family everything.
@@chrisrubin6445 that wouldnt have happend if Robb Just fuckin explained his strategy to his most important vasall instead of just saying: trust me bro
What if Tywin himself rode by with ten men? Should Edmure still follow a command just because Robb said it?
If Jamie does give an oath to see Robs son on the throne, Jamie the king maker sounds much better than golden hand.
@countravid3786 don’t forget the kingmaker is also better than the king slayer
Jaime also emphasizes this when he shows the White Book to Lorys in White Sword Tower, he points to the arms of Criston Cole, which Lorys doesn’t recognize, and says “They called him kingmaker.”
Jamie Lannister does not deserve any sort of redemption or whatever
@@Brandonhayhew what?
Maybe Bran wargs into baby and is king that way
If this chapter really is from the prespective of a maester, we'll likely see him planning to arrange for a convenient "craddle death", before being twarthed. We already know maesters are not above such things
Hadn’t considered that at all but it’s very likely that you’re correct!
Oh I love that idea!!
Oh i hate and love that idea itd make me so mad but i could see a maester doing that. And to catch him and thwart man that would be great writing. Sounds like something george could do
Grand Maester conspiracy indeed! “Filthy grey rats!”
I always thought the poltice jeynes mother made for her made her infertile
Quinn that image you evoke of Lady Stoneheart holding her grandchild is extraordinary--tragic and chilling. Subscribed.
When was this?
@@stormlupa5197 near the end
I really hope not, or I hope that there is a tiny sliver of Cat still in there that realizes what she's become and her part in the death of her house to begin with. She didn't seem remarkably self-aware in the early books, so I kind of doubt she regrets all that much. My opinion is likely biased, but I've found precious few reasons to like Cat.
I've always figured Brienne or Arya would kill Stoneheart when she gets too far gone.
I like the idea of Jaime finding new purpose in protecting Robb's heir since he failed in his first vow to Catelyn. It would also give him a plausible reason to end up in the North when the Others move south (in the show he was just sort of there because Cersei pissed him off, it seemed a bit random). Although I think first he's going to be reluctantly involved in Catelyn's revenge against the Freys (Red Wedding 2.0 - probably at the wedding of Daven Lannister with a Frey girl).
I think that Jaime will come back to honor his promise by protecting the Starks, but only to meet up with Howland and learn about Jon. With Jon it would be like his purpose renewed.
@@praveenloganathan7495 that would be so cool to see jaime become a true knight of the kings guard for the rightful king and redeem his honor. Even if he has to die let that happen
Jamie Lannister should be killed and end of that after the frey civil war.
I also think him not being able to save rhaegars kids would influence his decision in potentially protecting Robb’s child if he decides to. As a way of I failed once I will not fail this time
The child would be his redemption as a kingsguard.
I like to think Arya will warg into Nymeria and attack the wedding with the wolfpack
Might be wishful thinking but I don't care
Here's a random theory: What if Jeyne Westerling's child comes out stillborn, and is resurrected by Lady Stoneheart, the same way that she was resurrected by Beric Dondarrion?
I hadn’t considered this as an option at all! That’s a super cool theory, and it would be great to see Stoneheart passing the torch.
it would be a fire mirroring of the Others
Whoooaa…..
Damn
That would be super fucked up and really fit in with George's writing, I like it
Hearing how George already had all the sample chapters in 2012 - 2014 really makes one wonder what on earth he has been doing since then
About 15 tv shows and multiple books on the targaryen dynasty i guess
rewriting the book 3 times lol
Supposedly he’s written about 1100/1500 pages. He’s probably written himself into several corners and doesn’t want to take shortcuts to crawl out. Plus he’s old and his mind can’t be as sharp as it was a decade ago.
This chapter sounds perfectly like his styles, planting even more seeds for more messy plot lines, even though the garden has become overgrown at this point. The trimming/tying/finishing part is always hard and he is probably facing difficulties there, on top of trying to improve upon the show's ending (which probably contains some details that he originally intended).
He has more than enough written to release half of it like he did with Dance of Dragons. There's no reason why he can't it would quite the fans and buy him a little more time.
I believe the Jayne Jamie saw was actually her sister, and they kept hidden the real Jayne because she is in fact pregnant. We are told there are two Westerling girls, we see them in book 3, but in book 4 we only see one
If it’s about the hips george confirmed that was a mistake but still this could work
So you think it’s Eleyna Westerling pretending to be Jeyne? Maybe, we don’t have a canon description of her yet.
@@ovp3606 if her mother can't tell them apart...lol
@@DawnofIsaiI mean, could be lying too
Melisandre really did drink the poison Maester Cressen put in the wine. She was protected by R'hllor and so she didn't die. It was a show of power and she knew that magic was back in the world even if she didn't know how.
It probably wasn't R'holler that saved her. In one of the other books (ASOS I think), it identifies a gem/charm that can protect the wearer from poisons, Melisandre is wearing a jewel around her neck. Mel commonly uses non R'holler related magics to exagerate her power, and make her religious message more convincing.
it's her shadowbinder magic, which is not from the Red God (arguably against it). The three people who use Rhllor powers have a lot of similarities (Moqurro, Thoros and Melisandre) but Mel has specific powers that the other two don't..
Melisandre has been mentioned to exaggerate her magical power, Cressen took a nap right before hand so someone could have easily swapped the poison or something
@@davidjones272 I will admit that her stone does glow brighter in this scene, but it does many other times she uses magic. Don't forget that she truly didn't believe until she saw Stannis in her flames, which just happened to be right after Dany's dragons hatched. It's the same time that Thoras first saves Berrick.
IIRC in one of her chapters it says that all priests/ess of R'hllor know how to make flames of different colors using potions and powders but that she doesn't need to do that anymore.
Or it wasn't magic and Mellissandre had just desensitized herself to that particular kind of poison by drinking little bits of it over time
I appreciate the theory. It's a nice one!
My only comment refers to an aside you made about "John Snow's impending resurrection." I think most TH-camrs are expecting a resurrection of John Snow far too soon in the book - kind of like how it happened almost instantaneously in the show. I think John will stay in Ghost for a healthy chunk of the book before someone realizes that John is in Ghost and knows how to connect him to his body in the icy cells.
I meant impending more in the sense that I’m sure it will happen, though I’m very unsure as to WHEN it will happen.
He can’t stay in Ghost for too long, though. Jojen tells us if a wharg is inside of his animal for too long he can lose himself entirely and forget he was ever human.
So how fast does someone with no human body to jump back into degrade?
We see this happen in the books with Orell. Jon kills him, he inhabits the bird, that’s around the time when Jon first goes with the wildlings and ends up meeting Mance Rayder, and by the time of the battle of the wall Varamyr has taken the eagle. And he can still feel Orell inside the bird although barely anything of him remains apart from his hatred of Jon. That isn’t all that long of a timespan to entirely forget that you were ever human.
So it is dangerous if he’s in there for too long.
@@laileleneirose7966 That's a good point. However, I wonder if there's some variation in that depending on the animal one wargs into. A bird would have a smaller brain and is more different from a human than a direwolf would be. Also, there's the possibility that Snow will be altered by his experience inhabiting Ghost for a long time.
@@QuinnTheGM Are we sure it will happen?
@@bandoogiemanzit simply has to , and GRRM is not one to subvert something like this just because it’s the overall consensus. I’m sure he understands part of the reason he’s been “figured out” is because he’s taken too much time between books , allowing the readers to become incredibly proficient at understanding his writing style as well as overall plotbeats and their respective patterns. Now jsut because it’s obvious that Jon will come back doesn’t mean it still won’t be amazing in the books , I have a lot of faith in GRRMs prose so I believe it will be a goosebumps on your arms moment
I really liked this one, and the idea of Jaime renewing his oath in order to protect Robb's heir? That would be amazing. Don't know if that would actually but I now hope it does
You mentioned that AFFC is your favorite book in the series, and I can honestly say that I agree. It feels like the book that GRRM wanted to write all along, with the previous books just being context
I've been listening to the books on audible after not reading them for almost 5 years and I felt the same. Going from storm to feast felt like such a massive step up in terms of quality and it's currently my favourite book in the series. However, that could change once I've finished dance as the trend so far has been that every book is a substantial step up from the previous book.
I'm still only 200 pages in AFFC but so far I've found it kind of wholesome? I know dark things still occur but I've had a good time reading it so far, it's like a well deserved break from all the chaos
This video was really fun. Just what I needed today! Just one question: if Lady Stoneheart is desperate for an alternative heir to Robb's legacy, wouldn't she want to keep the Maester/Midwife alive as a witness? Without him, isn't the baby just a baby, with only the mother and grandmother's word that he/she is a highly convenient heir to the North?
My thought is that she’d keep the mother alive. She really has no reason to kill Jeyne, especially since that would make her a kinslayer. Especially if Tom of Sevens had passed along the information about Sybell’s betrayal.
@@QuinnTheGM lol if winds take right after dance how is it possible for her to not be visible pregnant in feast and being in labor in winds a concerned citizen your theory pour water all over my house
There would potentially be other witnesses to the birth not part of the Brotherhood. Podrick Payne and Ser Hyle Hunt. Possibly even Jaime and Brienne.
@@mothturtle7897 whts the point??
When has lady Cu*tlyn ever been that smart?
Why I like this theory is that it gives Lady Stoneheart a reason to go north (she’d want the heir to return to be raised in the safer North). That way when the Others come we can see her pair up against them 😉 And some resolution with Jon.
It would give some weight to her insistence of Jon’s line being a threat to her sons
you could see the heir as a parallel to danys story. It was clear that Dany would have to fight for the iron throne. But then we learned that she will have to fight her nephew Aegon too. Jon will likely have to fight the Boltons for Winterfell. And the heir will be his nephew, his Aegon. Stoneheart would use him to attack Jon's claim. So Jon like Dany would have to face of his nephew
yeah but Jon is likely to just say, 'cool, I will defend him until he comes of age. he needs a man to wield his sword still'
@@davidlewis5312 It's a bit hard to know the ins and outs of this possible scenario because many players could be involved.
If Jon captures Winterfell/the North from the Boltons, Lady stoneheart might want to kill the deceiving Bastard who usurped the throne of her son.
Or Davos finds Rickon and Jon has to choose who to support. His brother who is used by Stannis or his presumable Nephew who is used by Stoneheart
Not to mention how the northern Lords, the Wildlings or the white Walkers might influence the situation.
I hope it's as harmonic as you think. But I see a powder keg in the making
@@davidlewis5312our jon is likely to do that yes, but what about the vengeful rageful Jon that's gonna be born in winds? I could see him thinking winterfell is his rightful seat considering he saved it from the Boltons in this scenario
Assuming that “Aegon” is not a blackfire.
Although it’s likely Jon was never actually named heir, the chapter ends with a decision being made but we aren’t told who was chosen.
CATELYN HEIR CATELYN HEIR
@@juliezwick8930 Yea that would be cool and I think it’s possible, but I think the condition would be that she has to marry a Waynewood or Royce from the branch that has Stark blood to solidify her claim.
He was totally named heir.
Robb signed a decree the legitimized Jon and made him his heir (children with Jeyne notwithstanding). The problem is that the people holding the letter are either dead or unknown- including the captain of a ship called the Myraham.
We know Maege Mormont and Galbart Glover are in the Neck looking for Howland Reed and holding Eddard's bones
@@SantomPh Oh really? Because George himself said we don't know what's in the letter lol
We're told so many times that Jeyne Westerling is not pregnant that she must be pregnant. That's just GRRM.
Little late to the party but I could see this going in an even darker direction. I can see the ambush by lady stoneheart happening, but instead of the child being born, I believe it will be still born due to the stress and effects of moontea. However what if they create a fire wright out of the child, like stoneheart herself. Then you have the zombie stark line happening which echos mythology at the wall.
It seems likely Forley Prestor is going to be the Prologue. The character taking Edmure, Jeyne, and the other Westerlings back to the Westerlands.
That’s another definite possibility! My thought was just continuing the pattern of even books having maester-related prologues.
Understandable... I believe Jeyne is pregnant with Robbs heir as well. Stoneheart is going to end up with them in the Riverlands. I believe when Brienne brings Jaime to SH he's going to see Forley and all his party hanged and Edmure, and Jenye with the BWB
@@QuinnTheGM you should link up with the Quinn from Quinn’s ideas. Have a Quinn off and let the best Quinn win.
@@QuinnTheGM This alteration between "science" and "the beyond" in the prologues of course isn't the ice and fire of the series name, but it is one of the running conficts in the series. There are seven books, I guess we get a 4th non-maester prologue for Dream, maybe "the beyond" wins?
Fun idea. Love the video.
Love the Stoneheart idea, but for her motivation to name a new heir.
If time hasn’t progressed long enough from the Red Wedding & Robb’s death, it sure hasn’t progressed from the Pink Letter & Jon’s death. Who would send the news out, and why would the news of the death of the Commander of the Night Watch matter to anyone in the south?
It could be coincidence that they meet , but that doesn’t seem like George’s vibe.
Keep them coming
I really like this summary, thanks so much for putting this all together.
I have possible alternate take on the relation between the twist and the prior Jeyne Westerling intro'd in F&B.
What if the twist is that the child *is* poisoned successfully?
I think it's okay that it completely echoes Maegor's Jeyne, because F&B isn't part of the main series. The dots are still far enough apart that it's still satisfying if the reader connects them, and deduces current Jeyne's fate.
Meanwhile, it works as a twist internal to the prologue and for setting up the broader narrative. We get to spend the prologue with the rising tension of "Is there really a secret child of Robb about to enter this story and matter?" only to have it dashed by outside forces greater than the conspirator, which fits with the other prologues.
And it means LSH no longer has a way of avoiding Jon as heir. I think her story *needs* a reckoning with Jon before she passes. Which is why Robb's will and the unfinished business for which she lingers needed to be tied up with Jon, and his place in house Stark. So I think giving her an out in the form of Robb's trueborn child undermines the Ned/Cat/Jon tension, and the story as a whole. But forcing her hand right from the cold open? That's complete "human heart in conflict with itself" stuff right there.
A maester performing a birth is something I didn't think of. Very cool! I thought it would be a Blackfish pov rescuing the Westerling troupe and dying, while Edmure and Jeyne do some rendezvous with another pov later. Or Edmure is pov and dies and Brynden goes off with Jeyne.
I like it! Love the part about Jaime being kings guard of infant king in the north!
Interesting take! Hope we get to find out soon!
Another cool little detail about prologues forshadowing later events is that Cressen's poison from Book 2 is later used in Book 3 during the purple wedding.
I have subscribed
You’ve given me the first Robb’s heir theory in… years…. perhaps a decade, that seems plausible
My thanks
ooh I love this actually. seeing unCat holding her first grandchild would be *chef's kiss*. also it's nice to see a variation of the "jeyne is pregnant" theory that doesn't involve the jeyne that jaime met being an imposter 😅
It came up in research that Martin confirmed the description not matching was an error, and that that was corrected in future printings of the book, so I definitely don’t think she’s an imposter lol
I think you are entirely right. I also think this would dovetail nicely as a way to get Jaime and Brienne north. Let's assume this happens, Red Wedding 2.0, etc... I could see Robb's baby getting entrusted to Jaime and Brienne (maybe others, maybe or maybe not with Stoneheart depending on if she lives that long) to take north to Winterfell, possibly after hearing of Stannis, Jon, both, who knows taking the castle from the Boltons. It would also fit nicely with their oath to find Sansa and Arya and keep them safe. Sure, Robb's kid isn't either, but they WOULD be a Stark child.
Another great video, you really are advancing and expanding and on the theories that have been rattling around for years, you’re doing R’hllor’s work brother, keep the faith.
I think that the blackfish organised with Edmure when he escaped, he could tail the travelers. maybe he helps Jeyne and Edmure escape maybe killing the maester in the escape or bringing him with them to deliver the baby. that would leave them open to head north and create conflict with Stannis after the battle on the ice and picking up Ned's bones and Robb's will, maybe even meeting lady stoneheart then?
Man this is really gonna be in the history books
It will be a classic series in years to come
Great theory, and definitely viable. I guess I'd always thought that the prologue would be about Jon's resurrection, as George has so much to get through.
Interesting that you didn’t bring up the popular theory that the “Jayne” that Jaime meets was not actually Jayne. The prologue could still feature her if she escaped with the Blackfish.
I didn’t bring that up because the portions of the novel that that theory relies upon were revised by Martin in later releases of AFFC. He specifically said that that was Jeyne, and that he made a mistake.
Love your theory! I appreciate you sharing. It makes perfect sense to me and I think it’s extremely interesting! Have not heard anything like it before.
Thank you for making this video. No on on youtube really talks about the TWOW prologue so seeing this in my recommend really made my day
Pate is my favorite prologue too.
You are not the Quin I expected, however, this was fun.
I like this! I struggle to think of what jamie will do until his ultimate confrontation with cersei. This makes a great deal of sense, and for a much more interesting prologue! GJ!
Imagine if the babyes are twins and then Nymeria takes then away just like the legend of rome's founders
Ah, so Robb’s heir would be suckled by a Direwolf, ie Romulus and Remus. Seems pretty metal.
Hope not, that tale ends with one brother killing the other :(
@@DarkFlameMaster1000 can’t kill a brother if ya don’t have one.
My view on this theory is Stoneheart gives her life as Beric did to revive a stillborn continuing the cycle Thoros accidently began and will probably go on. Or she forces Thoros to start sacrificing other people for this purpose which seems even more likely.
You should make more theory videos, bc this was really good and made a lot of sense man. Keep up the good work
Thank you so much! I’ve got many more theories.
I think it is important to note that when Tyanna admitted to poisoning Maegor’s unborn children, this was something she said under torture. So it’s very possible Maegor couldn’t have kids. There are some pretty interesting theories as to why.
Maegor was either naturally sterile or was made sterile after his trial by seven. Virtually every character tortured in the series gives a false confession, it's a major theme. The Blue Bard confesses to sleeping with the queen, despite obviously never having done so.
I’m pretty sure she admitted to the poisoning after seeing the torture instruments so she could have a quicker death
Great theory!! Never heard this before and I love it I think you’re exactly right one of these will be the prologue
I’ve been wanting a video on this topic for soooo long. Keep it up man!
Been watching a lot of your stuff and I liked this theory a lot. They help assuage the pain of maybe never knowing 💔. You've earned a sub from me!
This was a fantastically put together video, thank you 🥳
Great video, and easy and clear voice to hear. Would love a timeline video of major points from got to dod, be a great recap video for when wow finally comes out 👍
The amount of work and research you put into this video is amazing! All very well done and makes you think how this will all go down in TWOW. And so excited to see if your theories are correct
I would love if something like this was the prologue for TWOW. If I may add a wrinkle to the theory? The prologues also add hints to future developments in the books. Like how the prologue of ADWD hints at Jon warging into Ghost when the Night’s Watch betrays him. If Jeyne were to give birth in the prologue, what if she were to die due to the birth?
George RR Martin has said he’s going to reveal a huge twist in TWOW that apparently the fans have already guessed. My money on that twist is that R+L=J will be confirmed to the reader in TWOW. Jeyne could be used in the prologue to be an echo of Lyanna; secretly pregnant with an heir, only to die birthing said heir.
Although the theory of Jayne baby is a good one and could very well be true, Thats not what the Jaime and Catelyn (and Brienne!) arcs should center on.
I understand it seems as if it could be a small mercy for Catelyn, to presumably see and hold Robs baby and continuation of the house, after everything she suffered, but there is a far greater reunion coming that has been preparing for five books now. Everyone expects that Stoneheart will soon meet her final end.
But the whole saga cannot end without Catelyn being reunited with at least one of her daughters. And I would not be surprised if there is much more of Catelyn in the Lady Stoneheart - then most of the fandom assumes. Sansa is as near as anyone could want in this point of the story. Vale is right next to the Riverlands.
Also, there is only one immediate true course for Jaime and that is to find Sansa and unite her with Catelyn, therefore fulfilling his Oath. That strand of the story cannot end with just some "new baby" as pity reward, or remain unfulfilled. There also must be such a reunion before Stoneheart meets her final end, as one of the major payback moments that the story itself is due, after all this time. This will not happen just because it would be nice. It is going to happen because several major, important plot strands and characters are all converging together to a specific area of the kingdoms. Sansa is close. The Vale neighbours the Riverlands. Jaime is there now - with his sole remaining Oath is precisely finding Sansa and or Arya - and returning them to Catelyn. Brienne is with him, Brienne who is carrying the sword named no less than the "Oathkeeper" - which is actually reforged half of bloody Eddard Stark sword - given to her to specifically find Sansa and or Arya - and is sworn to specifically find either by both Catelyn and Jaime! AND there is a huge Monk in that same very area! A Monk who KNOWS Arya, and who knows and has guarded Sansa, who might just have some feelings about all of that.
On the other side, Littlefinger will need to establish control over the Riverlands too, in addition to Vale. But the Riverlands are now owned by the Brotherhood. Which not many realize just yet, but will get informed when the next wedding happens.
And the best thing of all is - Sansa has been found. Discovered.
By a small, diminutive, ordinary hedge knight.
You know, the kind of knights that sleep in bushes. And forests.
As to how Jaime will eventually resolve the situation with Cersei or be involved in that, I would really wish it turns out to be something different than is what most commonly expected. I dont take any of the so-called "prophecies" to have any serious impact on actual events in the whole Saga, except through people believing in some and then behaving to make them "real". Mostly with disastrous consequences.
There are far more interesting things to worry about in the immediate continuation of the story, first. And this confluence of forces, characters and long coming paybacks swirling around the Riverlands and the Vale should be as glorious as any other major clash of the saga, if Martin can still write anything good.
Jeyne was accompanied by 400 man guard with a seasoned commander. We can rule out option 1. The second option is possible all though it could be a band led by the Blackfish. The last thing we hear about Stoneheart is that she is somewhere near the Neck, supposedly. I'm leaning more towards a party led by the Blackfish all though some of his men might be part of the Brotherhood.
Good point about the Blackfish! I’d considered that as an option when scripting this video, but wanted to lean into the potential magical elements a bit more.
@@QuinnTheGM The problem that I have with the wolf pack is that I don't think they'd attack such a large group of armed men. The issue that I have with Stoneheart is that she is already involved with whatever is going on with Jaimie and Brienne, so she couldn't be two places at once.
interesting that her name in he show was changed to Talisa Maegyr, which deffo reminds me of the names Tyanna and Maegaor
Nah the showrunners are retarded
Yes I loved the idea of Jamie story with lady stoneheart being interrupted by a scout or someone seeing the Jeyen camp and SH shifting her focus from Jamie to her.
Slight correction; in the prologue to book 2 Maester Cressen doesn't "die due to strange magic or slight of hand or whatever it is Mellisandre does." He dies because he poisoned a cup of wine which he offers to Melisandre, he drinks from it first to "prove" it's safe, she also drinks but doesn't die because her magic nullifies the poison.
No, she knew about the poison so she had the anti-poison. She had seen that the maester would poison her in her flames!
@@giorgosgkialpis1394 I might be misremembering. I think in the show the ruby on her necklace lights up when she drinks it so I thought that was magic purification but I'm not sure if it was the same in the book
@@TRDPaul In the book the ruby on her necklace catches the light. It isn't specified whether it's glowing magically or not, though.
Also, Melisandre drinks from the cup first. She even says to Cressen that it isn't too late to pour out the cup before drinking it. Then she drinks most of the wine, leaving only a mouthful for Cressen to drink.
Excellent video! Truly top tier theory crafting in the SOIAF community! Unfortunately, I think grrm is more likely to get the babe poisoned still than let it be born. But I love your optimism and would prefer it!
Great video. Now need to watch your entire backlog
Given the similarities to Anne Boleyn (Henry VIII's second wife, also accused of witchcraft) I would think that the original Jeyne Westerling was entirely innocent. Given it's the misogynistic Maesters that write the histories, traducing the Queen would be entirely in keeping with their world view.
Though if we are going with Robb's Jeyne being modelled on Anne Boleyn, I'd bet on Jon's surprise heir being a girl.
I really like this comparison!
the Northerners have a tradition where if there are no male heirs, they marry the daughter heir to a man and their child will carry on the family name and not the man's. This is suggested as a solution to Lady Hornwood who has no male heirs or alternatives- and Ramsey forces her to marry him and then starves her to death to get her land. Similarly Alys Karstark is married to the Magnar of Thenn to avoid her uncle Cregan stealing her seat (although her brother Harrion is possibly alive).
@@SantomPh Also, that's the situation with House Mormont - Maege Mormont's daughters carry the family name Mormont even though their father (possibly Tormund) does not carry the same name
If we are going with Tudors, I think of Jane Grey, the Nine Days Queen, put to death by Queen Mary.
@@aleksandarnikolov3182 Of course Tormund is of the Free Folk and has no name in the Westerosi tradition.
And he is the seemingly fond father of several Free Folk children. And marriage seems a different concept among them, except for the Thenns, among whom leadership passes through recognized families as is does in Westeros.
As far as the magical aspect is concerned, I agree that it would be Cat and not Nymeria mainly because even numbered prologues usually have fire magic while odd numbered ones have ice magic. Warging is ice magic while Stoneheart was brought back by fire magic.
Great video and interesting theory.. I really hope that we’re actually going to get a chance to see if it proves to be valid
man I really want to read The Winds of Winter
This was a good theory but I want Jon to be the heir and at least king of the North at the end but I could live if Robb’s son becomes king of the North at the end with Sansa and or Jon as his regent
It seems likely that Jon will be king in the North, Robb's will seems to be setting that up.
This isn't lotr,jon is a badtard and has no claim to the north,no lords will ever rally behind because of the superstitious nature imposed on bastard,that they are rebellious, two true born children of lord Eddard are still alive reckon is probably in the hands of the manderlys ,bran is alive so image sansa and Arya who all have a better claim than jon I get that the fan base loves the northerners and want them to get their independence but should all the kingdoms be united if they hope to face their common enemy. The winds of winter will have parallel rebirths with jon literally getting resurrected and dany turning to violence(not madness),to fire and blood many of our characters are going to being head strong in upholding their ideologies ,we are decently going to see more nuanced characters again this is lotr
Apologies but this seems incredibly unlikely
I really enjoyed your video, gave good details and good ideas of what may happened. The best thing is that you avoid a lot of tinfoil theories that you find in other theory videos, where they make mountains out of mole hills, with one small line turning into a convoluted 20 minute video.
1:22 Cressen poisoned the cup and then shares it with Melisandre. The magic protects her from poison, it doesn’t poison Cressen instead of her. He’d have died either way.
Out there idea. Rob was a warg, it is pretty well accepted that he was killed twice, once as man and once as wolf. But in the DoD prologue we see that a warg can still skinchange after his physical body has died , Sixskins and Thistle. What if before he could be killed as Grey Wind he instinctively tried to go back to his body but as it was already dead his spirit latched onto the only "piece" of him that was still alive.
interesting idea. thanks, Arron.
Maybe it was a fever dream, but I recall reading an excerpt of Edmure and Jeyne attempting to escape via ropes down a balcony with her mother witnessing it, they are found out and crossbowmen loose bolts on them.
I think that was a fever dream
It's a good theory man. We shall wait and see.
Great video man, a lot of these points really make sense. Do you have any theories on the importantes of Val? I feel like she'll be significant in the books.
Val is such an interesting character! I’d love to make a video about her. I’ve got a couple ideas as to theories at the wall for the near future.
I think she's just foreshadowing for Daenerys in some way.
Here's another possibility for the supernatural element.
1. We know Sybil Spicer has connections to magic and specifically eastern magic (she is a descendent of Maggie the Frog, and that fact seems significant). So...
2. What if the Jeyne that Jaime met in Feast wasn't actually Jeyne, but was someone else wearing a glamor given to her by her mother? In this version, Sybil is a triple agent who actually DOES want her daughter to be the mother of a king, but fears Lannister retribution, so has to protect her daughter through magical means.
3. This explains why she is not visibly pregnant. She is in fact someone else, and the real Jeyne has been hidden somewhere to give birth in secret.
4. And the secondary thematic purpose it would serve is further explaining how glamors work, which is obviously going to be important given the direction of Melisandre's arc.
What luck! Glamors are the exact topic for my next video!
Great video! I do feel the plot twist isn't really of the caliber one would expect. He said it would involve 3-4 characters. Jayne having a child and meeting Lady Firewight is two, but something is missing. Sure Jamie and Brienne are most closely linked, or Uncle Brynden. Or Brother Edmure rescuing Jayne, maybe doing a child swap. Definitely some great possibilities. I don't feel GRRM will choose a maester just because previous books with even numbers were from maester(ish) points of view. Possible but more cause they are grey mice sneaking around being anonymous - perfect for prologue POV - but not because it's bound by a pattern, that's not how GRRM writes. But who the POV is is possible less relevant. More interesting what the plot twist maybe. If it's about Jayne then it's gotta be about her pregnancy. But maybe she isn't the protagonist in the plot twist..... I don't know... can't wait
King Robb's heir has not been confirmed to the reader. till such time, Prince Brandon Stark is his undisputed next in line. Also Catelyn did not see the will but she witnessed its signing.
I would LOVE for Robb to have a pup floating around out there. It would make the Red Wedding sting a little less
I love this theory! Prefer Nymerias wolfpack over Stoneheart, but both are very cool- great video!
Almost a full minute in before I noticed this isn't Preston Jacobs
Ha! That’s high praise.
The two should record a discussion between them, it would be great
I thought that Cressen essentially killed himself thinking that Mel would drink the poison more readily if he was also drinking the same wine, but she just didn't die
I could see Lady Stoneheart giving her breath to her stillborn grandchild
still love this theory. glad i'm sober enouh to appreciate it for now.
i think it will definitely be through the POV of someone in the BWB. The prologue POVs always tell us something about the coming story, AGOt has Will introducing the nights watch and the overarching threat of the wight walkers. ACOK introduces Stannis and the Baratheons in Storms End. ASOS introduces the idea of a mutiny stirring in the nights watch. AFFC introduces much about oldtown, the maesters and the citadel, also hinting at the faceless men. ADWD introduces us to a lot about the wildings, but also mostly warging/skinchanging and how it affects the warger.
I think the pattern of north of the wall and then maester/citadel pov, is just a coincidence i dont think GRRM is working off that pattern as a guide.
And as we know Jeyne Westerling is involved in the prologue, so likely it revolves around some sort of plot to free her. That, or it is set in Casterly Rock and she is just there, although i doubt that.
If it was from the point of view of Ser Forley Prester i cant think of anything that he could give us any background of so im not sure if its him. Same with Edmure Tully, he cant really give us any background on anything.
Some povs that WOULD give us background would be anyone in the BWB. They could tell us a lot about how they worked, before and after Lady Stoneheart, they could foreshadow some of the BWB plans, they could hint at the story that LS will get up to in the book.
Another POV that could give us background on something is Ser Ilyn Payne, now im not sure if he is with the Westerling escort (Jaime takes him to riverrun and then from what i remember he just sort of disappears although i might be forgetting something). Ilyn could give us background on Aerys, Tywin, and a whole bunch of stuff that is floating around in his head that he cant tell anyone (because he cant speak). And since all the prolgogue POV characvters die at the end of their chapters, it seems likely that Aryas wolfpack comes in at the last second and kills him and (Ilyn is on her list).
Although i think it is more likely that it is from the pov of a BWB person (Lemmoncloak, Tom of Sevens, a new character? could be anyone). It seems to make the most sense.
A Ser Ilyn pov would be insane
LOVE this theory!
love this theory. video quality is also really good
Keep it up great vid
Great video! Thanks for the content.
@2:01 Chett is confirmed to have been killed by the army of the dead and reanimated as a Wight later in the book when he is one of the Wights who attacks Sam and Gilly before they are saved by Coldhands
Jaime 8 actually takes place "half a year into the siege of Raventree" which began after the red wedding so the timeline doesn't really work out
I would love it if Robb has a son and Jon becomes the regent of the North and just waves the baby around and speaks for him.
Robb's kid: Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
Jon: What's that kid? You wanna go stop the apocalypse? Sure thing buddy.
Robb's kid: Googoo gaga
It's just as likely that The Blackfish ambushes the Westerlings with the Brotherhood
True! Though I think the supernatural options are slightly more likely, given previous prologues.
I really can’t get behind the “TWOW prologue must be a Maester because 2 and 4 were Maesters” idea that yourself and Preston seem to have.
A: AFFC was an acolyte, not a maester, and the entire context of the occupation of the POV character was different from how it was utilized in ACOK.
B: Why does the fact that two maester-related characters were even-numbered books hold any weight? Both epilogues were in odd-numbered books, yet, not all odd-numbered books have epilogues. So that sort of almost transitive property of evidence supporting TWOW prologue’s POV being a maester doesn’t apply when you consider the series as a whole.
Also, Chet was more-or-less the Watch’s version of an acolyte, being the maester’s personal steward, in the same way Jon was commander-in-training as Mormont’s personal steward. So wouldn’t that mean that 2, 3, and 4 all had Maester-adjacent POVs? Because again, Pate was not a Maester. He was literally Oldtown Chet.
I assume the pack of wolves will be used to take out all the Freys at the twins, instead of just poisoning them.
This was really well done!!!
just discovered your channel, it's great stuff. one more sub for you
Not gonna lie. I desperately hope that Jeyne is pregnant and does give birth to a healthy baby. Although I do want Jon Snow to become more of a king-like leader and figure after his resurrection.
I am hoping that R + L = is true and Jon and Dany do get together eventually.
Maybe the North can keep its own kingdom again and robbs heir can be the King. Jon and his brothers son would be so sweet to have together and we need some sweetness
Nope, I want the ending to be in darker path and chaos. Dany will make chaos
When he is resurrected, Jon isn't going to be the Jon we know now
Having any 1 of the battles to look forward to in TWOW would be great but instead we get 4!!! So well done, every single battle has intrigue, special circumstances, unique tactics, and plot relevance. I can't wait to see how these actually turn out.
I feel like the community could write a good portion of the winds of winter at this point. It wouldn’t be as good but we could be further along than Martian at this point.
I would just like to point out that Jon hasn’t been confirmed as heir and GRRM has confirmed that he hasn’t specified who Robb’s heir is.
Good point.
Jeyne very well could be in the westerlands by the start of book six. Yes feast and dance take place simultaneously, but dance goes beyond feast. Best example is Jaime who ended feast at river run (if I'm recalling it correctly) after seeing the westerlings leave for the westerlands. Dance has him at Raventree. Given I don't think we see him leave riverrun at the end of Feast, there's a good chance the Westerling arrives around the time Jaime arrives at Raventree. Even if they hadn't yet, Martin very easily can have the prologue be a few days weeks or a month or two ahead of where Jaime left off.
Another ASOIAF fan channel with great content! Automatic sub, loved the video.
You know, Robb having a Son would actually allow the other fitting end to happen as well.
Many theorize that Sansa will become Lady of Winterfell, but she probably won't marry again, being desillioned by the prospect.
That way, she could raise her nephew, be lady of winterfell and the line could still continue....
If a resurrected Jon married Jayne Westerling and raised Robb's son to be the new king in the north, the manderleys and stannis help Jon retake Winterfell, and Sansa betrays Littlefinger in solidarity with her family. All of the threads competing for control of the north would be tied up nicely
GRRM: Oh damn.... that's good, and so going in
What if the child is stillborn from the moon tea stil, messing it up, but Stoneheart resurrects it. This fits with the supernatural thing generally happening at the end of the prologue and ties into resurrection. Fits with the older Jeyne Westerling example too.
Greta vid. Yes, Robb's Will and Jamie's (possible) death/rebirth are two super interesting points I'm still unsure of. Seems late in the story to introduce a baby/heir for Robb. Plus, Bran and Rickon are still around, but the mere suggestion/potential of it may be enough to alter the story too. Jamie's "true knight" arc seems on track, but I'm not sure if he'll get to "ride off into the sunset somehow"(be on Sansa's Queen's Guard with Brienne, Hound, etc...that would be a motley crew), protect Jayne, or if he'll go back to KL to die/kill Cersei, so they can "leave the world the way they came into it." That's what makes him and Theon so interesting, they could both still fail epically, if they fall back into their old ways. Cheers.